NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, it's been a while since I've poked my ugly face back in NS general. What can I say? I'm feeling brave. Lol

But I digress, I'm not entirely sure what's trendy around he these days, but topics such as teen sex, gay marriage, and abortion have always been popular topics for debate. Normally, this is fine. However, I believe that there are more important things. I will break it down:

Teen sex: I have problems with it. However, since i don't have any kids that I worry about getting knocked up, it doesn't have an effect on my life.

Gay marriage: I don't agree with it for personal reasons. However, what two men/two women want to do with each other, as long as it's not on my lawn or something, has no effect on my life.

Abortion: I am against it. However, if women want to kill their babies (or lumps of organic matter, depending on your point of view), that's there problem; it has nothing to do with me.

So moving on... I would like to discuss some domestic issues that affect everyone in the United States. This can be open to most things that fit those criteria. However, I would like to start on illegal immigration/border protection.

This is something that is a problem for anyone paying taxes or trying to find work. I'm too lazy to dig up the actual numbers, but the amount of money (OUR money) that goes to pay for medical treatment, public education, and other social services for people who do not even, in my opinion, belong in this country is massive.

So who has thoughts or opinions on this topic? Do you have a problem with this as I do? Who's to blame? What's your solution? Do you even thing that we have a problem?

Oh! But if we don't let these people come in here ILLEGALLY then we are just hate mongering racist bastards who don't realize the "plight" of all these citizens of Latin countries, so much of a "plight" that they can't even take the time to get a green card! :rolleyes:

... fuck the border..

Acidic pineapple-chunk mud moats would keep those dirty mexicans out.

But seriously, I'm anything but a racist. I have no problem with somebody coming to this country legally so long as they speak our language, pay taxes, and aren't trying to blow up buildings. It's the ones that come here illegally and take from the system while giving nothing back... and we wonder why we are in such debt.

But seriously, I'm anything but a racist. I have no problem with somebody coming to this country legally so long as they speak our language, pay taxes, and aren't trying to blow up buildings. It's the ones that come here illegally and take from the system while giving nothing back... and we wonder why we are in such debt.

I'm sure the reason is a little more complicated than that. Seriously, what do you want to do about it? They're people. You'll always get those who leech. I'm sure they're the minority amongst those who just want to make a better life for themselves. It's not as if only immigrants who pull this stuff.

But seriously, I'm anything but a racist. I have no problem with somebody coming to this country legally so long as they speak our language, pay taxes, and aren't trying to blow up buildings. It's the ones that come here illegally and take from the system while giving nothing back... and we wonder why we are in such debt.
And which language would that be?

In any case, it is not so much the borders that need securing as we need to A. Make it easier and cheaper to immigrate into the US, the current system is broken, which makes running the border much more attractive. B. Invest more in the countries south of said border, help Mexico and Central America grow. Not only would this encourage more people to stay home, but it would also act as a bumper from other would be border crossers.

Trilby63;11742786']I'm sure the reason is a little more complicated than that. Seriously, what do you want to do about it? They're people. You'll always get those who leech. I'm sure they're the minority amongst those who just want to make a better life for themselves. It's not as if only immigrants who pull this stuff.


Well, if somebody is going to be a leech, they might as well come here legally. And don't discount their numbers. The running record is between 8 and 11 million illegal aliens are in this country. And do all of them come here to leech? No. However, many of them do and those who come here illegally to work still don't pay taxes; they are taking money out of this country.

That's not even taking national security into account.

I think your nations debt is more greatly contributed by the purchase/production of weapons then due to a few million illiegal immigrants entering the Land of Deluded Hope and Glory.

I find it paradoxical that a nation whose entire history was shaped and developed by immigrants resents new comers. Your economy can deal with it - so should you - stop paying attention to the imbecile american media and look at the real figures.

You may have guessed I'm not american. If you want my opinion, your concerns should be placed to more pressing matters - gun laws/control, foreign policy and the unilateralist tendancies of the government. Oh and here's a new concept your you to ponder - SOCIAL WELFARE

Well, if somebody is going to be a leech, they might as well come here legally. And don't discount their numbers. The running record is between 8 and 11 million illegal aliens are in this country. And do all of them come here to leech? No. However, many of them do and those who come here illegally to work still don't pay taxes; they are taking money out of this country.

That's not even taking national security into account.

Can you blame them?

And which language would that be?

In any case, it is not so much the borders that need securing as we need to A. Make it easier and cheaper to immigrate into the US, the current system is broken, which makes running the border much more attractive. B. Invest more in the countries south of said border, help Mexico and Central America grow. Not only would this encourage more people to stay home, but it would also act as a bumper from other would be border crossers.

That's a possibility. The main problem I see with it is that no matter how much money we spend on helping these counties (assuming their often corrupt leadership doesn't steal it), we wont be able to make it as good as sneaking into the US.

Trilby63;11742805']Can you blame them?

No. Does it make it right? IMO, no it doesn't. Whether I blame them or not doesn't mean that I want my tax dollars to pay for them when my country is already in massive debt. Just as I've heard it said that the United States cannot be the world's police force, nor can we be the world's welfare office.

You may have guessed I'm not american. If you want my opinion, your concerns should be placed to more pressing matters - gun laws/control, foreign policy and the unilateralist tendancies of the government. Oh and here's a new concept your you to ponder - SOCIAL WELFARE

You really aren't an American.

Well, if somebody is going to be a leech, they might as well come here legally. And don't discount their numbers. The running record is between 8 and 11 million illegal aliens are in this country. And do all of them come here to leech? No. However, many of them do and those who come here illegally to work still don't pay taxes; they are taking money out of this country.

That's not even taking national security into account.

You fail. Those who come here to work generally do pay taxes, if only indirectly through the taxes their employers pay. In reality, few illegals file for their income taxes (for obvious reasons), when the majority of them would get a tax refund. Thus, the government actually makes money on illegal immigrant workers. You might want to learn a little bit more before ranting about the illegal-immigration issue.

That said, however, I, too, would like to see reform in this area, and I don't mean a blanket amnesty for those already here.

You fail. Those who come here to work generally do pay taxes, if only indirectly through the taxes their employers pay. In reality, few illegals file for their income taxes (for obvious reasons), when the majority of them would get a tax refund. Thus, the government actually makes money on illegal immigrant workers. You might want to learn a little bit more before ranting about the illegal-immigration issue.

That said, however, I, too, would like to see reform in this area, and I don't mean a blanket amnesty for those already here.

As charming as your response may be, I am inclined to disagree. The majority of illegal immigrant workers are off the books completely. That means no money is taken by the government in the first place. If you have ever filed for income taxes and payed attention in high school economics, you would realize that they are only refunding money that you paid in the first place. (and only from the federal government) Most illegal workers never did pay any taxes in the first place.


Also something to consider: (probably not all that objective, but still has some accurate facts/numbers)
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research2fdc

I think your nations debt is more greatly contributed by the purchase/production of weapons then due to a few million illiegal immigrants entering the Land of Deluded Hope and Glory.

Yeah, we're a bunch of war-mongering assholes. :rolleyes:

Run along.

I find it paradoxical that a nation whose entire history was shaped and developed by immigrants resents new comers. Your economy can deal with it - so should you - stop paying attention to the imbecile american media and look at the real figures.

And I find it ridiculous that someone who has, so clearly, a limited understanding of US history feels competent enough to give such advice.

You may have guessed I'm not american.

No, really?

If you want my opinion,

Actually, we don't.

...your concerns should be placed to more pressing matters - gun laws/control, foreign policy and the unilateralist tendancies of the government. Oh and here's a new concept your you to ponder - SOCIAL WELFARE[/QUOTE]

Fuck that shite.

As charming as your response may be, I am inclined to disagree. The majority of illegal immigrant workers are off the books completely. That means no money is taken by the government in the first place. If you have ever filed for income taxes and payed attention in high school economics, you would realize that they are only refunding money that you paid in the first place. (and only from the federal government) Most illegal workers never did pay any taxes in the first place.


Also something to consider: (probably not all that objective, but still has some accurate facts/numbers)
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research2fdc

You must've failed high-school economics. Employers pay taxes, too. And it's "paid," not "payed." I'm guessing you failed English, too.

That's a possibility. The main problem I see with it is that no matter how much money we spend on helping these counties (assuming their often corrupt leadership doesn't steal it), we wont be able to make it as good as sneaking into the US.



No. Does it make it right? IMO, no it doesn't. Whether I blame them or not doesn't mean that I want my tax dollars to pay for them when my country is already in massive debt. Just as I've heard it said that the United States cannot be the world's police force, nor can we be the world's welfare office.

You know in Britain, people get low-rent housing and free healthcare. It really shouldn't be an issue in America but as you say, these immigrants aren't to blame. I very much doubt that the immigrants a responsible for a huge proportion of your countries debt. The blame lies solely at the feet of your government. Do you think they care about how many immigrants there are? Why would they? They are a convenient scape goat.

Being entirely cynical, illegal immigration helps the American economy (it's the same here in the UK, by the way) by giving cheap labour.
How many illegal immigrants, after all, take their employer to a tribunal when unfairly dismissed? How many know that there IS a minimum wage, let alone are able to demand it?
How many are, in fact, doing a job that the local people are unwilling to do, for less than legal inhabitants would have to be paid?

And how, in a nation without universal healthcare, do such immigrants cost you anything as a taxpayer? (not intended as an attack on US healthcare, though I prefer our system. Just an observation.)

You must've failed high-school economics. Employers pay taxes, too. And it's "paid," not "payed." I'm guessing you failed English, too.

Lol. Well I spelled it right once... But there's no reason to get hostile.

Anyway, the taxes that employers pay isn't the same as their employee's income taxes. And they obviously will not be paying taxes on something that is not on the record. (for the reason that is illegal)

At any rate, I am curious to see what your solutions to this are. (which I will read when I get back from class. *runs off... trips... dies*)

Lol. Well I spelled it right once... But there's no reason to get hostile.

Anyway, the taxes that employers pay isn't the same as their employee's income taxes. And they obviously will not be paying taxes on something that is not on the record. (for the reason that is illegal)

At any rate, I am curious to see what your solutions to this are. (which I will read when I get back from class. *runs off... trips... dies*)

But the fact is that, most often, employers are paying taxes for their employees that're illegal.

As for my solutions? Well, more border security -- both north and south -- would be a start. But the best way to stem the tide of illegal immigration? Stop all foreign aid to Mexico until its government stops encouraging its citizens to flee to the US.

Acidic pineapple-chunk mud moats would keep those dirty mexicans out.

ANd you'd know where to find me at all times. :)

Lets get some facts here at least

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.



Faults with the system methinks.

Especially as immigrants are net contributors in the UK

Los Angeles Count has lost 10 emergency care centers in the last five years due to illegal immigration. 70% of the kids in Los Angeles county schools are now English as a second languiage students. 40% of the population in Los Angeles County Jails are illegal immigrants. For reasons of practicality this needs to stop. We need serious border enforcement. We need heavy fines against people who hire illegal immigrants. We need criminal penalties against employers who underpay illegal immigrants either finacially or with benefits, teh same penalties they'd get if they broke labor laws when employing an American citizen. We also need to streamline the immigration process to make it easier and less time consuming to immigrate here - 10 years is a long time to wait. We should be hiring immigrant labor at the border for employers who want to hire immigrants so we can do background checks and simple medical exams and vaccinations to those that don't have them before they enter this country. We need to give cheap English classes at night schools for immigrants who wish to become citizens.

Probably already been said, but here is what we are dealing with in the US. A stabalizing population as far as citizens goes and a growing economy. Immigrants are not taking jobs away, they are increasing buying power by keeping inflation down. The real problem is that immigration is too difficult. Especially for countries right beside us. In my opinion, we should forgive all those living here and make them legal, increase the quota drastically, and do a lottery system so that it isn't just those who have money who can come legally.

But seriously, I'm anything but a racist. I have no problem with somebody coming to this country legally so long as they speak our language, pay taxes, and aren't trying to blow up buildings. It's the ones that come here illegally and take from the system while giving nothing back... and we wonder why we are in such debt.

I thought you were in debt because the Shrub increased defense spending while handing out tax cuts galore. Oh, and his failure to close down many loopholes which allow the very rich to escape nearly all tax probably didn't help matters.

Still, if you want to scape-goat immigration rather than deal with the genuine causes of debt then don't let me stop you...

I thought you were in debt because the Shrub increased defense spending while handing out tax cuts galore. Oh, and his failure to close down many loopholes which allow the very rich to escape nearly all tax probably didn't help matters.

Still, if you want to scape-goat immigration rather than deal with the genuine causes of debt then don't let me stop you...

Of course it isn't the only reason that the United States is in debt. However, it does cost the states $7.4 billion a year from public education alone for illegal immigrants. And it's on something that is unnecessary. It could be argued that we need to spend that money on defense. (Which may or not be true, depending on your opinion) However, why should the American tax-payers have to pay for foreigners? I don’t think we should, but that’s just my opinion.

Of course it isn't the only reason that the United States is in debt. However, it does cost the states $7.4 billion a year from public education alone for illegal immigrants. And it's on something that is unnecessary. It could be argued that we need to spend that money on defense. (Which may or not be true, depending on your opinion) However, why should the American tax-payers have to pay for foreigners? I don’t think we should, but that’s just my opinion.

$7.4 billion? Please, that's chump change. Halliburton's petty cash box in Baghdad has more than that in it, in cash.

What should we do with the foreigners? I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on that. Oh, and by the way, it's against the law in my state, Colorado, to let illegal aliens avail themselves of state services. Has been for a while, too.

Or you could get 4x the posts out of it by actually posting in those threads! :p

+1

Los Angeles Count has lost 10 emergency care centers in the last five years due to illegal immigration. 70% of the kids in Los Angeles county schools are now English as a second languiage students. 40% of the population in Los Angeles County Jails are illegal immigrants. For reasons of practicality this needs to stop. We need serious border enforcement. We need heavy fines against people who hire illegal immigrants. We need criminal penalties against employers who underpay illegal immigrants either finacially or with benefits, teh same penalties they'd get if they broke labor laws when employing an American citizen. We also need to streamline the immigration process to make it easier and less time consuming to immigrate here - 10 years is a long time to wait. We should be hiring immigrant labor at the border for employers who want to hire immigrants so we can do background checks and simple medical exams and vaccinations to those that don't have them before they enter this country. We need to give cheap English classes at night schools for immigrants who wish to become citizens.And here I was starting to get lulled into the nice comfy belief that all Americans are irrational, thoughtless xenophobes.

Trust a Psychotic to trash my illusions :(

$7.4 billion? Please, that's chump change. Halliburton's petty cash box in Baghdad has more than that in it, in cash.

What should we do with the foreigners? I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on that. Oh, and by the way, it's against the law in my state, Colorado, to let illegal aliens avail themselves of state services. Has been for a while, too.

I said 7.4 billion on education alone. The total tally is actually quite a bit higher. And why play the Halliburton card? Honestly? If you hate corrupt businesses, then you should be in favor of shipping the illegal aliens out and keeping more from coming into the country because companies that hire them are just trying to make more profit at the expense of the American citizen.

As for solutions, I have some ideas, but I'm still trying to figure it out. IMO, it's a problem. However, if I knew the exact way to solve it, I would not have structured the thread in this manner. You may find this hard to believe, but I wouldn't start a discussion thread designed to talk about solutions if I already had the answers. Lol.

I said 7.4 billion on education alone. The total tally is actually quite a bit higher. And why play the Halliburton card? Honestly? If you hate corrupt businesses, then you should be in favor of shipping the illegal aliens out and keeping more from coming into the country because companies that hire them are just trying to make more profit at the expense of the American citizen.

As for solutions, I have some ideas, but I'm still trying to figure it out. IMO, it's a problem. However, if I knew the exact way to solve it, I would not have structured the thread in this manner. You may find this hard to believe, but I wouldn't start a discussion thread designed to talk about solutions if I already had the answers. Lol.

Please...the companies that hire illegal immigrants are exploiting the immigrants to provide a cheaper service to Americans. They are not exploiting American citizens.

Please...the companies that hire illegal immigrants are exploiting the immigrants to provide a cheaper service to Americans. They are not exploiting American citizens.

I didn't say exploit. I said "at the expense of." And, if you're one of the countless Americans out of work because of the jobs the illegals fill or one of the other 300 million tax-payers who are paying for the unemployed worker's welfare, it IS at your expense in one form or another.

And here I was starting to get lulled into the nice comfy belief that all Americans are irrational, thoughtless xenophobes.

Trust a Psychotic to trash my illusions :(

There's often a practical, realiztic middle ground that gets drowned out by the rhetoric from the extremes on both sides.

I didn't say exploit. I said "at the expense of." And, if you're one of the countless Americans out of work because of the jobs the illegals fill or one of the other 300 million tax-payers who are paying for the unemployed worker's welfare, it IS at your expense in one form or another.

Sure, go find a job that an illegal took from a worker and I will be mildly surprised, there are some, but not too many of them. It is cliche but true that they most often take the jobs that legal citizens are "too good" for.

Well, if we're going to have something other than open door immigration, the most cost-effective thing would be to increase penalties on employers who hire illegal aliens, and monitor employers more heavily. Most immigrants, when unable to find a job here, go back home.

I didn't say exploit. I said "at the expense of." And, if you're one of the countless Americans out of work because of the jobs the illegals fill or one of the other 300 million tax-payers who are paying for the unemployed worker's welfare, it IS at your expense in one form or another.

The whole point, as I said above in this thread, is that illegal immigrants most often take jobs that the local people won't do for those wages.

Acidic pineapple-chunk mud moats would keep those dirty mexicans out.

As Carlos Mencia said, a Lady of Guadalupe (sp?) statue would do it nicely. :D ;) :p :eek: :) :cool:

http://www.vx3lan.com/files/lol.jpg

The whole point, as I said above in this thread, is that illegal immigrants most often take jobs that the local people won't do for those wages.

Well, the only reason that American citizens won't take those jobs is because they know that we will give them a welfare check for sitting on their asses. Cut the welfare for able-bodied citizens, and we wouldn't need illegal immigrants.

Well, the only reason that American citizens won't take those jobs is because they know that we will give them a welfare check for sitting on their asses. Cut the welfare for able-bodied citizens, and we wouldn't need illegal immigrants.

That's a potential solution. Doesn't undermine my assessment of the problem though.

Well, the only reason that American citizens won't take those jobs is because they know that we will give them a welfare check for sitting on their asses. Cut the welfare for able-bodied citizens, and we wouldn't need illegal immigrants.
Bull. The reason why Americans ain't taking the jobs is because, often times, said jobs won't even met minimum wage. Employeers like that idea.

But, alas, alack, the average American LIKES the cheap produce and clean hotel rooms, and gutted chickens. They want the nice landscaping without having to pay for it, and they certianly hate the idea of paying through the nose for a certified American construction worker when a cheapie illegal does the job at half price and doesn't even want health benifits!

You can get Americans to pick oranges for $50 an hour, it's much harder to get them at $5.

Well, the only reason that American citizens won't take those jobs is because they know that we will give them a welfare check for sitting on their asses. Cut the welfare for able-bodied citizens, and we wouldn't need illegal immigrants.

American Citizens WILL take those jobs. But only when they'll pay enough to live on.
Around the world, you'll find people willing to do all the shit jobs - and in 99% of cases, they're just regular joes. What's happening in the US is the illegals are taking the jobs at such low wages that americans, who have a higher standard of living to maintain, can't.
If the illegals were stopped, the prices for mowing lawns and cleaning guttering would rise a bit - enough that people could get a living wage doing them, but not so much that the ordinary guy couldn't afford it.

oh and

Vornich
I find it paradoxical that a nation whose entire history was shaped and developed by immigrants resents new comers.

Want a tip on how NOT to sound like a complete idiot to every American on the board? Then don't make moronic statements like the above when the IP has clearly stated he has no problem with legal immigration.

That's a potential solution. Doesn't undermine my assessment of the problem though.

It is an astute assessment; I simply believe there is a solution to that piece of the problem.