NationStates Jolt Archive

So I don't know how much of a problem this post may cause but it's really been on my mind since around the beginning of the conflict in Lebanon. And something has happened to really annoy the hell out of me....

I'm a British Jew. I abhorr the state of Israel and everything that the Israeli government has inflicted on the Palistinian and Lebanese peoples. Whilst I recognise that Israel must continue to exist I nevertheless feel that the only solution to longterm peace is for Israel to withdraw fully from the West Bank and for the country to return to the pre-1967 agreed borders.

However, I'm writing not simply to air this opinion but to describe something that happened to me yesterday: I was in conversation with a friend in a bar. My friend's girlfriend was with us and I was meeting her for the first time. We started to talk about Israel and I started to air my views. I'd barely started speaking when she said: "But aren't you a Jew?" I said "Yeah, I'm not religious though." To which she replied, "Then you're Israeli. It's the Jews fault what's happening in Israel, your people should be ashamed."

Firstly I thought, holy hell it's Mel Gibson in disguise...

Then I questioned something, And now - longwindedly - I get to my point:


DO ISRAELI ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST BREED ANTI-SEMITISM?

DO ISRAELI ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST BREED ANTI-SEMITISM?

There was undoubtedly anti-semitism in the region before 1947, but it does not help that Israel calls itself a jewish state in its own constitution. I think its disgusting, I abhor generalizations.

DO ISRAELI ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST BREED ANTI-SEMITISM?

Of course they do, for the reasons your friend exemplified - people equate Jews with Israel with the Zionists.

Frankly, the only reason anti-Semitism hasn't become more popular (though I hear it is in Europe) is because bashing Muslims is still the favourite sport.

Frankly, the only reason anti-Semitism hasn't become more popular (though I hear it is in Europe) is because bashing Muslims is still the favourite sport.

Anti-Semitism isn't neccessarily popular in Europe: I'm not a very good Jew (mmm bacon) and this was the first comment I've heard in years even close to a real racist/racialist remark towards Jews.

I think that you've created a more important question there over America's actions in the Middle East: Do America's actions in the Middle East creat Islamophobia in the West and Anti-Semitism in the East?

(You'd never guess I was an atheist from how I'm going on about religion today);)

Of course they do, for the reasons your friend exemplified - people equate Jews with Israel with the Zionists.

Frankly, the only reason anti-Semitism hasn't become more popular (though I hear it is in Europe) is because bashing Muslims is still the favourite sport.

I thought Bush bashing was the favorite sport

sorry couldn't resist. :D

You should have just told her until England (Britain) gives back Ireland and Scotland, then they should try plucking the plank from their own eye before telling other people that they should be ashamed...

It didn't really use to, but the Israelis have moved off of the Kibbutzim for the most part, and they've started electing rather right-ish governments, earning Israel the emnity of the European left.

Well, your friends' girlfriend is very short-sighted. I take great solace in knowing that the state of Israel is not the Jewish people.

I thought Bush bashing was the favorite sport

sorry couldn't resist. :D

More of a hobby than a sport. Sport infers that there is some challenge. ;)

Isn't it always blame the Jews? Never mind the other religions and peoples who are just as responsible for any troubles going on in that part of the world.

Anti-Semitism isn't neccessarily popular in Europe: I'm not a very good Jew (mmm bacon) and this was the first comment I've heard in years even close to a real racist/racialist remark towards Jews.

I think that you've created a more important question there over America's actions in the Middle East: Do America's actions in the Middle East creat Islamophobia in the West and Anti-Semitism in the East?

(You'd never guess I was an atheist from how I'm going on about religion today);)

I would say that America's actions in the Middle East create a feeling of persecution amongst Muslims, which in turn creates anti-Semitism in the East (and probably the West as well, just not as much yet) and incourages terrorist actions which once again reinforces Islamophobia.

The Middle East wars are a vicious cycle, and America has been for decades getting right in the middle of it. It's utterly laughable now that anyone thinks the USA is the "neutral" party that can "broker" peace between Israel and anyone else.

I would say that America's actions in the Middle East create a feeling of persecution amongst Muslims, which in turn creates anti-Semitism in the East (and probably the West as well, just not as much yet) and incourages terrorist actions which once again reinforces Islamophobia.

The Middle East wars are a vicious cycle, and America has been for decades getting right in the middle of it. It's utterly laughable now that anyone thinks the USA is the "neutral" party that can "broker" peace between Israel and anyone else.

QFT.

These days the US has 'Israel' supporter written all over it, even if your a totally unbiased observer it is easy to see who gets the special treatment (and the weapons). Especially when the Israeli army goes off on 'reactionary' and 'objectiveless' campaigns every time a rocket flies over their border.
Look at Beirut, there's the US's 'New Middle East'.

QFT.

These days the US has 'Israel' supporter written all over it, even if your a totally unbiased observer it is easy to see who gets the special treatment (and the weapons). Especially when the Israeli army goes off on 'reactionary' and 'objectiveless' campaigns every time a rocket flies over their border.
Look at Beirut, there's the US's 'New Middle East'.


Utterly true. Especially with the weapons. Which makes me laugh when they kick up such an almighty fuss about Iran and Syria arming Hezbollah...

Also here's an interesting point:

Israel is in direct abuse of UN resolutions against it on Human Rights and its Nuclear program

Israel systematically invades it's neighbours and carries out slaughter on the minority population

Israel harbours terrorists

Israel definitely has WMD (look at Beirut and check the US governments bills)


So where exactely is Israel different from Iraq? Oh yeah it's a democracy...Like all those other Bush allies: Uzebekistan, Egypt, Libya (HAHAHAHA) and Pakistan....

DO ISRAELI ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST BREED ANTI-SEMITISM?

Sadly, they do. I am Jewish too, and I guess I am a zionist in the original sense of the word in that I do believe that Israel needs to exist as a safehaven. There has been to much in history to ignore that. However, I do believe that the actions of the Israeli government are not helping this at all.

There was undoubtedly anti-semitism in the region before 1947, but it does not help that Israel calls itself a Jewish state in its own constitution. I think its disgusting, I abhor generalizations.

No, I think you misunderstand. The whole purpose for the creation of Israel (It was actually the first act by the newly-formed United Nations) was as a safe-haven for Jews so that the situation during the Holocaust of no country allowing Jews to enter (including the allies (especially the U.S.)) could not be repeated. In case of yet another tsunami of anti-semetism and the violence that frequently comes with it, there will always be somewhere we can go. That's why it calls itself a Jewish state.

Of course they do, for the reasons your friend exemplified - people equate Jews with Israel with the Zionists.

Frankly, the only reason anti-Semitism hasn't become more popular (though I hear it is in Europe) is because bashing Muslims is still the favourite sport.

Why are you saying it would be more popular?

No, I think you misunderstand. The whole purpose for the creation of Israel (It was actually the first act by the newly-formed United Nations) was as a safe-haven for Jews so that the situation during the Holocaust of no country allowing Jews to enter (including the allies (especially the U.S.)) could not be repeated. In case of yet another tsunami of anti-semetism and the violence that frequently comes with it, there will always be somewhere we can go. That's why it calls itself a Jewish state.

Sorry but that's far too simplistic. The land of Palestine was taken from the people by the LEAGUE of Nations post WW1 and used as a British mandate. Extreme Zionism in Britain existed at least fifty years before that: read Daniel Deronda by George Eliot for proof:

The creation of the State of Israel was partly to do with the Holocaust but the idea was mooted much, much earlier and any prejudice from Palestinians/Arabic nomads toward Jews was born out of British rule for thirty years before '47 and the first Arab-Israeli war....

No, I think you misunderstand. The whole purpose for the creation of Israel (It was actually the first act by the newly-formed United Nations) was as a safe-haven for Jews so that the situation during the Holocaust of no country allowing Jews to enter (including the allies (especially the U.S.)) could not be repeated. In case of yet another tsunami of anti-semetism and the violence that frequently comes with it, there will always be somewhere we can go. That's why it calls itself a Jewish state.

Of course, any such "tsunami" will, in all likelihood, be focused not on Diaspora Jews but rather on said "safe haven."

...'m not a very good Jew (mmm bacon)...

That doesn't make you a bad Jew. The reason that (if you keep Kosher) you're not supposed to have bacon is, because, at the time, eating pork had a high risk of giving you trigonosis (which was, of course, incuralbe). It was just a generally good idea not to have pork. It wasn't even until around fifty years ago that the risk was removed only in highly advanced first-world countries. (It took even more time in others.) Still, outside of the first world, I would have to seriously reccommend againt eating pork. It's just not safe in most places.

I think that you've created a more important question there over America's actions in the Middle East: Do America's actions in the Middle East creat Islamophobia in the West and Anti-Semitism in the East?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Don't even get me started.

Sorry but that's far too simplistic. The land of Palestine was taken from the people by the LEAGUE of Nations post WW1 and used as a British mandate.

Actually, it was conquered (centuries earlier) by the Ottomans and, at the end of World War I, the Ottoman territories were divided up between Britain and France. Britain claimed Palestine. In fact, it was not even called Palestine until then.

Extreme Zionism in Britain existed at least fifty years before that: read Daniel Deronda by George Eliot for proof:

So did extreme anti-semitism. Only the anti-semetism was more prevalent.

The creation of the State of Israel was partly to do with the Holocaust but the idea was mooted much, much earlier and any prejudice from Palestinians/Arabic nomads toward Jews was born out of British rule for thirty years before '47 and the first Arab-Israeli war....

Actually, the first Arab-Israeli war happened as soon as the creation of Israel was declared.

[QUOTE=Congressional Dimwits;11741773]That doesn't make you a bad Jew. The reason that (if you keep Kosher) you're not supposed to have bacon is, because, at the time, eating pork had a high risk of giving you trigonosis (which was, of course, incuralbe). It was just a generally good idea not to have pork. It wasn't even until around fifty years ago that the risk was removed only in highly advanced first-world countries. (It took even more time in others.) Still, outside of the first world, I would have to seriously reccommend againt eating pork. It's just not safe in most places.QUOTE]

It was meant as a joke actually and I am aware of the reasons that the roll call of bizarre and outdated Judeao-christian beliefs stem from times of desert living: You think Jews bury their dead in 24 hours because God gets angry? No it's just not particularly safe to leave dead bodies around in the sand dunes because they'll rot: incidentally in Leviticus there is a law against eating grasshoppers - can't be Kosher if you eat a bug man...

No more soley Jewish-related discussion please, the thread was meant for a discussion of the repercussions of Israeli actions in the wider world, cheers.

Of course, any such "tsunami" will, in all likelihood, be focused not on Diaspora Jews but rather on said "safe haven."

Possibly so, but at least it can defend itself. (unlike, say, the victims of the Holocaust or any of the other numerous attempts at genocide). As a little note, though, it has already been useful for that purpose for Jews from Africa, Latin America, and, of course, the let's just say "unfriendly" countries in the Middle East.

QFT.

These days the US has 'Israel' supporter written all over it, even if your a totally unbiased observer it is easy to see who gets the special treatment (and the weapons). Especially when the Israeli army goes off on 'reactionary' and 'objectiveless' campaigns every time a rocket flies over their border.
Look at Beirut, there's the US's 'New Middle East'.

Actually, Israel makes a lot of American weapons, and the rockets were hitting people in cities.

Actually, it was conquered (centuries earlier) by the Ottomans and, at the end of World War I, the Ottoman territories were divided up between Britain and France. Britain claimed Palestine. In fact, it was not even called Palestine until then.





So did extreme anti-semitism. Only the anti-semetism was more prevalent.



Actually, the first Arab-Israeli war happened as soon as the creation of Israel was declared.


When I said the first war happened after '47 I was referring to the first conflict in '48. The second part I fail to grasp: are you referring to Zionism as arising out of anti-semitism in the 1800s? If so then I'm confused as two of the most influential Zionists, Lord Rothschild and Benjamin Disraeli were both respected members of government...I'm not denying the existence of anti-semitism but I do believe that Israel is not the answer to it. Finally your point about the Ottomans is true; but you fail to take into account the fact that historically the land was called both Israel and Palestine pre-Ottoman and that the people of Palestine at the time of WW1 were nomadic tribes who fought for the British in the war against the Ottomans before they were betrayed (See Laurence of Arabia) in a colonialistic fashion a la Africa and India. The French took Lebanon where they still speak French today.

Utterly true. Especially with the weapons. Which makes me laugh when they kick up such an almighty fuss about Iran and Syria arming Hezbollah...

Those are terrorist groups. They attack civilians.

Also here's an interesting point:

Israel is in direct abuse of UN resolutions against it on Human Rights and its Nuclear program

What human rights violations? (The U.S. is the one violating those (I dare not even mention Guantanamo.).)

Israel systematically invades it's neighbours and carries out slaughter on the minority population

To systematically invade your neighbors, they can't have attacked you first... which they did. Also, you have to have done it more than once. Since when have they massacred any "minority populations?"

Israel harbours terrorists

Name one terrorist group it harbors.

Israel definitely has WMD (look at Beirut and check the US governments bills)

Fist of all, they didn't use a WMD on Beirut. That should be pretty obvious. Second of all, the U.S. didn't pay for theri nuclear program. Nor, in fact, did they even condone it. Where are you getting this stuff from?

So where exactely is Israel different from Iraq? Oh yeah it's a democracy...Like all those other Bush allies: Uzebekistan, Egypt, Libya (HAHAHAHA) and Pakistan....

Israel is a democracy. It has a parliament that runs on votes by the people (including Palestinian citizens- so long as they are citizens (There are actually very many.)) By the way, no one has ever claimed Uzebekistan, Egypt, Libya, or Pakistan to be democracies. Do you read tabloids?

What human rights violations?

Are you serious?

For one recent example:

Israel/Lebanon: End Indiscriminate Strikes on Civilians (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13902.htm)

When I said the first war happened after '47 I was referring to the first conflict in '48. The second part I fail to grasp: are you referring to Zionism as arising out of anti-semitism in the 1800s? If so then I'm confused as two of the most influential Zionists, Lord Rothschild and Benjamin Disraeli were both respected members of government...I'm not denying the existence of anti-semitism but I do believe that Israel is not the answer to it.

Actually, I was referring to the fact that most of Europe was just generally anti-semetic. Secondly, I agree; Israel is only making much of the anti-semetism worse.

Finally your point about the Ottomans is true; but you fail to take into account the fact that historically the land was called both Israel and Palestine pre-Ottoman and that the people of Palestine at the time of WW1 were nomadic tribes who fought for the British in the war against the Ottomans before they were betrayed (See Laurence of Arabia) in a colonialistic fashion a la Africa and India. The French took Lebanon where they still speak French today.

Have you seen the film Lawrence of Arabia? I realise this is off-topic, but I just got to see it in a recently restored movie palace. Have you ever seen a movie palace? I've heard of only one theater in Britain bearing one of the "great Whirlizters." (I belive it's in Manchester.) Being from a major (and far more importantly, historically preservationalistic) urban area in California, I actually live withing fifty miles of three movie palaces. (The fourth (and grandest) was torn down in 1963.) Trust me, it's cool getting to see Lawrence of Arabia in a theater roughly the size of Arabia. If you ever get the chance, it's very much worth it.

Are you serious?

For one recent example:

Israel/Lebanon: End Indiscriminate Strikes on Civilians (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13902.htm)

As a little note, I wasn't saying I supported the war; I was simply asking a question. (And thank you, by the way, for the answer. I hadn't read that article before.)

I'm a British Jew. I abhorr the state of Israel and everything that the Israeli government has inflicted on the Palistinian and Lebanese peoples.

You're not alone.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Those are terrorist groups. They attack civilians.



What human rights violations? (The U.S. is the one violating those (I dare not even mention Guantanamo.).)



To systematically invade your neighbors, they can't have attacked you first... which they did. Also, you have to have done it more than once. Since when have they massacred any "minority populations?"



Name one terrorist group it harbors.



Fist of all, they didn't use a WMD on Beirut. That should be pretty obvious. Second of all, the U.S. didn't pay for theri nuclear program. Nor, in fact, did they even condone it. Where are you getting this stuff from?



Israel is a democracy. It has a parliament that runs on votes by the people (including Palestinian citizens- so long as they are citizens (There are actually very many.)) By the way, no one has ever claimed Uzebekistan, Egypt, Libya, or Pakistan to be democracies. Do you read tabloids?



I think you're missing British irony mate. I am saying that Uzebekistan etc are NOT democracies yet they are US allies.

True WMD was wrong language, I should have said medium range missiles should I? Beirut by the way was a lovely city, just as beautiful as Tel Aviv still is. The US don't need to condone the nuclear program when it is clear that they are happy for it to exist, otherwise surely they would act the way that they are acting toward Iran?

Israel is currently as we speak contuinuing to occupy and control Palestinian territory in Gaza and the West Bank. They withdrew from Gaza and invaded again. And do you not think that invading Lebanon for the third time in twenty years counts as systematic?

If terrorist groups are defined in their attacks on civilians then the Israeli army is a terrorist group. Civilian deaths in Lebanon vastly outweigh civilian deaths in Israel in the last conflict: I personally would rather there be no deaths on either side, with no rockets, but oh well.

I won't dignify "attacked you first" with anything. This is an utterly blinkered view of either conflict and is unhelpful.

Israel has been found guilty by Amnesty International of countless human rights violations in there treatment of prisoners - not just Arab prisoners - holding people for years on end without trial.

I think thats everything. I do not read tabloids, generally they fail to report Israeli violations, I read a left wing British paper called the Guardian and I find that accusation relatively insulting.

Why are you saying it would be more popular?

Historical precedent.

I'd barely started speaking when she said: "But aren't you a Jew?" I said "Yeah, I'm not religious though." To which she replied, "Then you're Israeli. It's the Jews fault what's happening in Israel, your people should be ashamed."

Firstly I thought, holy hell it's Mel Gibson in disguise...

What d'ya know; he's feld the country...

You're not alone.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Tony Cliff (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Cliff)

Might as well add some secular leftists to the Jewish anti-Zionist mix; I do not like Neturei Karta.

Historical precedent.

Good point.

"Have you seen the film Lawrence of Arabia?"

Yes it's a great film. No I don't know of any movie palaces. I live in London, so Manchester is not the most accessible place to go to the movies.

Incidentally I saw Omar Sherif walking down the street the other day and went a little starstruck....

Tony Cliff (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Cliff)

Might as well add some secular leftists to the Jewish anti-Zionist mix; I do not like Neturei Karta.

A really interesting guy. Thanks for that. And I suppose if we're nit-picking I'm a secular leftist as well...

I think you're missing British irony mate. I am saying that Uzebekistan etc are NOT democracies yet they are US allies.

Sorry.

The US don't need to condone the nuclear program when it is clear that they are happy for it to exist, otherwise surely they would act the way that they are acting toward Iran?

They didn't for India or Pakistan. Or many other nations for that matter. It's jsut that, as exemplified by the Contras, the U.S. has a very bad relationship with Iran. Additionally, Iran is run by a psychopath (So is North Korea, but the U.S. has been opposing that too.) and is the only nation that, while trying to go nuclear, has threatened genocide. I have to say, it's a worrisome combination.

Israel is currently as we speak contuinuing to occupy and control Palestinian territory in Gaza and the West Bank. They withdrew from Gaza and invaded again. And do you not think that invading Lebanon for the third time in twenty years counts as systematic?

They left Gaza on the condition of ceasefire. Then Gaza attacked. So after the whole counterterrorism initiative, they didn't give it back. As for Lebanon, one was during the Lebanese civil war, another was the last one (There's no point in revisiting that topic.), and what was the third? Either way, you can't have a systematic invasion of the same country. There's something critically wrong with the logic in that. Additionally, systematic requires the use of a sort of "assembly line" style system. Both times were for different reasons, from different provocations, and with different goals. That's just not systematic.

If terrorist groups are defined in their attacks on civilians then the Israeli army is a terrorist group. Civilian deaths in Lebanon vastly outweigh civilian deaths in Israel in the last conflict: I personally would rather there be no deaths on either side, with no rockets, but oh well.

In order to be a terrorist group, the civilian deaths have to be intentional. By your standards, any army that has ever inflicted collateral damage (That's every army that has ever seen battle.) is a terrorist group.

I think you'd like California. Pacifism abounds. :D

I won't dignify "attacked you first" with anything. This is an utterly blinkered view of either conflict and is unhelpful.

I suppose everyone's already discussed it anyway.

Israel has been found guilty by Amnesty International of countless human rights violations in their treatment of prisoners - not just Arab prisoners - holding people for years on end without trial.

That's America you're thinking of. The British coallition forces in Iraq too. Welcome to the club.

I think that's everything. I do not read tabloids, generally they fail to report Israeli violations, I read a left wing British paper called the Guardian and I find that accusation relatively insulting.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I didn't mean to insult you or your newspapers, and I'm terribly sorry if it came out that way. Really.

"Have you seen the film Lawrence of Arabia?"

Yes it's a great film. No I don't know of any movie palaces. I live in London, so Manchester is not the most accessible place to go to the movies.

Incidentally I saw Omar Sherif walking down the street the other day and went a little starstruck....

Cool! If you like architecture (or the history of film/ culture in the 1920s and 30s), look up the Los Angeles Theater (I don't think I need to tell you where that is.), which is a beax-arts (architecturaly genre) theater, and the Paramount theater in Oakland, CA, an amazing and certainly unique art deco movie palace.

And I suppose if we're nit-picking I'm a secular leftist as well...

Yo tambien.

Sorry to blow you off like this, but I have work to do, and it's getting late. Adios!

DO ISRAELI ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST BREED ANTI-SEMITISM?

Your friend's girlfriend is a dumb fuck.

Do dumb fucks generalize and point fingers about/at people and things they know nothing about? yes.

Do dumb fucks generalize and point fingers about/at people and things they know nothing about? yes.

Does the Israeli government (as well as many of its supporters) deliberately cultivate the association for political gain? Yes.

Does the Israeli government (as well as many of its supporters) deliberately cultivate the association for political gain? Yes.

Not to say that it's the most substantive of tactics, but they have that perrogative once the ammo has been placed neatly in their laps - waste not, want not.

Israel has been found guilty by Amnesty International
LOL:D :p

...And? You make it seem like AI is The Hague or something....that doesnt mean anything. AI is just a group of leftwing hippies who cry out whenever something doesnt fit their little "peace peace peace" world view.