NationStates Jolt Archive

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

"There is no one righteous, no not one."

yes, we are terrible, I even hate myself for being so hateful.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

No, the vast VAST VAST majority of christians are good, rational, decent people. The only ones you see on the news a lot tend to be the intolerant, stupid minority.

yes, we are terrible, I even hate myself for being so hateful.

:p

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

No I dont agree with there reasoning ... I only think christians that try and controll MY life based on their beliefs are bad people

No, the vast VAST VAST majority of christians are good, rational, decent people. The only famous ones you see a lot on the news tend to be the intolerant, stupid minority.

I agree with that. Somehow, the loonies manage to get more attention in every religion.

They're evil bastards who rape and eat puppies.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

I'm a Christian, and I'd never dream of taking away a woman's right to abort. (Even if I think it's murder.) And the government should stay out of marriage. Period. Stop lumping us into groups.:(

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.no. everyone is entitled to their opinions, their loves, hates, feelings, beliefs, and their own way of expressing themselves. to deny someone their rights to hold as well as share what is important to them makes the one denying them as intolerant as they say they are.

No I dont agree with there reasoning ... I only think christians that try and controll MY life based on their beliefs are bad people

But if most Christians want to live in a society that mirrors their beliefs, does that make them bad people?

No, the vast VAST VAST majority of christians are good, rational, decent people. The only famous ones you see a lot on the news tend to be the intolerant, stupid minority.

QFT.

Though I'm no longer Christian (it didn't make any sense so I went agnostic), most of the Christians I've met were really nice, nobody ever mentioned gays or abortions except the pastor, but he was kind of an idiot...

*shrug*

The Phelpses, Robertson, Bush, falliwell, they're the very vocal minority, really.

And I'm all for prayer in school, provided that people of other religions can pray too without harassment.

I'm a Christian, and I'd never dream of taking away a woman's right to abort. (Even if I think it's murder.) And the government should stay out of marriage. Period. Stop lumping us into groups.:(

You think it should be murder ... not is murder (and technicaly it is killing justified or not)

Sorry emotive language is so often (sepcialy murder and unnatural)

I know it is probably not what you intended

no. everyone is entitled to their opinions, their loves, hates, feelings, beliefs, and their own way of expressing themselves. to deny someone their rights to hold as well as share what is important to them makes the one denying them as intolerant as they say they are.

So if I said that all Jews should be exterminated, and you condemn that, then you are as bad as me?

I agree with that. Somehow, the loonies manage to get more attention in every religion.

I blame it on the media, which tends to be more for entertainment than information anymore. The masses don't want to hear "local church group aids katrina victims" they want to hear "local pastor takes hostages at abortion clinic, claims jesus told him to do it in dreams"

They're evil bastards who rape and eat puppies.

The same puppies? :eek:

I blame it on the media, which tends to be more for entertainment than information anymore. The masses don't want to hear "local church group aids katrina victims" they want to hear "local pastor takes hostages at abortion clinic, claims jesus told him to do it in dreams"

True, so true.

But if most Christians want to live in a society that mirrors their beliefs, does that make them bad people?

No wanting something does not make you bad ... acting on it does.

I blame it on the media, which tends to be more for entertainment than information anymore. The masses don't want to hear "local church group aids katrina victims" they want to hear "local pastor takes hostages at abortion clinic, claims jesus told him to do it in dreams"

The masses actually do want to hear the first headline, the second one is grating their nerves and the media is too greedy to realize that. :mad:

No wanting something does not make you bad ... acting on it does.

If I wanted to have Nazism in America, but was too lazy to get off my ass to do it, would I still be a good person?

So if I said that all Jews should be exterminated, and you condemn that, then you are as bad as me?

no, for I am not denying your right to say that, I am expressing my opinion/beliefs that you are wrong in your stance.

now if you went out and tried to exterminate all jews, then you would cross the line by infringing upon the rights and freedoms of others... same if I were to kill you or gag you because of what you say.

So if I said that all Jews should be exterminated, and you condemn that, then you are as bad as me?

Oh I can disagree with your opinion ... but I should not take away your right to believe it.

But if you ACT on that feeling and take away someone elses rights you deserve to be punished severly

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.
There are some so called Christians posting here that are warmongers, and are full of hatred. Some have advocated Muslim genocide or sterilization. Some are racist and intolerant. IMHO they are very sick people.

You think it should be murder ... not is murder (and technicaly it is killing justified or not)

Sorry emotive language is so often (sepcialy murder and unnatural)

I know it is probably not what you intended

I used the wrong word. So sue me. It's killing, which in my eyes is wrong. I do not think it should be illegal. .

no, for I am not denying your right to say that, I am expressing my opinion/beliefs that you are wrong in your stance.

now if you went out and tried to exterminate all jews, then you would cross the line by infringing upon the rights and freedoms of others... same if I were to kill you or gag you because of what you say.

But if someone else started doing that, and I did nothing to stop it, wouldn't I be complicit in an immoral act, and as a result, have blood on my hands?

They're evil bastards who rape and eat puppies.

That's ok, as long as they leave the kittens alone.

To the OP, does being anti-abortion or anti-gay marriage makes a religious person bad? They may not be up to date on what is currently PC or "modern" but isn't everyone entitled to their beliefs? And considering the really hateful stuff people believe what conservative or more mainstream Christians believe isn't really "bad". They simply replace independence and focus on the self with personal morality and stricter behavior rules.

There are some so called Christians posting here that are warmongers, and are full of hatred. Some have advocated Muslim genocide or sterilization. Some are racist and intolerant. IMHO they are very sick people.

Mind you, I'm not on these forums 24/7, but Muslim genocide? No offense, but that seems laughably ridiculous.

There are some so called Christians posting here that are warmongers, and are full of hatred. Some have advocated Muslim genocide or sterilization. Some are racist and intolerant. IMHO they are very sick people.

of course they are, but are most christians that way?

yes, we are terrible, I even hate myself for being so hateful.
Why are you hateful?

When you forgive someone, you set the prisoner free, and the prisoner was you.

of course they are, but are most christians that way?
I wouldn't say most, but there are quite a few.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.You have a very weird conception of Christians if you believe that they're all pro free market and capitalism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockTheCasbah
"So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc. "


The entire question depends on your personal point of view; I do not think I have the right, or authority, to brand any generalized group of people as "bad". As it is, you are making a hasty generalization in assuming all Christians want certain specified things and have the exact same opinions on issues. People that disagree with the majority of a groups beliefs may feel that the group is 'incorrect' or 'misguided' but those are not "bad" qualities, and are entirely based on perspective. I do not believe the question is answerable, but I do believe it can be debated ad infinitum.

But if someone else started doing that, and I did nothing to stop it, wouldn't I be complicit in an immoral act, and as a result, have blood on my hands?

started doing what?

Just saying that Jews be exterminated or actually started exterminating Jews?

Mind you, I'm not on these forums 24/7, but Muslim genocide? No offense, but that seems laughably ridiculous.

How so?

Mind you, I'm not on these forums 24/7, but Muslim genocide? No offense, but that seems laughably ridiculous.
Why is it "laughably ridiculous"? It has been advocated by more than one Christian.

How so?Hehe. He just reminded me of a character in Rhinocéros... :p
"Rhinocerosses? Nonsense!"

started doing what?

Just saying that Jews be exterminated or actually started exterminating Jews?

Ok, let's say I was living my life day to day, and all of a sudden a neo-nazi becomes president, and starts to kill Jews. Now let's say there's a Jewish family at my door begging me to hide them. What would be the moral thing to do?

Why is it "laughably ridiculous"? It has been advocated by more than one Christian.

I'd like to see a link please.

But if most Christians want to live in a society that mirrors their beliefs, does that make them bad people?

If that means forcing other people to conform to their values, it makes them bad Christians, and bad people.

Christ reminds you that the righteous Pharisee is less righteous in the eyes of god than the sinner, and yet those who parade their views and readings of God's laws act as the Pharisee's did. Christ tells you to render unto God what is God, and unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, but those who would turn God into Government would give unto God that which is Ceasar's, and unto Ceasar that which is God's. Christ said to look first to the splinter in your own eye, before critiscisng the plank in your own, but those who would force their beleifs on others are defying this order. Christ says to love your neighbor, but these people are happy to feign love whilst enforcing hate.

And any person who is willing to tell someone what judgement to make on a subjective matter is a bad person in my book.

Luckily, many Christians follow Christ's law and favor allowing a live and let live world.

Ok, let's say I was living my life day to day, and all of a sudden a neo-nazi becomes president, if he/she were voted in using the process agreed upon by the people of your country... then they deserve that.
and starts to kill Jews. and this stops being them expressing their beliefs/opinions/etc and them Acting upon it. big difference.
Now let's say there's a Jewish family at my door begging me to hide them. What would be the moral thing to do?what ever your morals dictate.

That's ok, as long as they leave the kittens alone.

To the OP, does being anti-abortion or anti-gay marriage makes a religious person bad? They may not be up to date on what is currently PC or "modern" but isn't everyone entitled to their beliefs? And considering the really hateful stuff people believe what conservative or more mainstream Christians believe isn't really "bad". They simply replace independence and focus on the self with personal morality and stricter behavior rules.

EDIT: I'm only playing Devil's Advocate here, please don't flame me.

I'm going to have to say no to the question in bold, even if I agree with your post as a whole. Today we're saying that tolerance, basically saying I can't stand you but I'll agree to share the same space as you, still promotes disharmony. Tolerance doesn't go far enough. All it prevents is side A from killing side B. No, nowadays we're teaching our children to embrace the differences between us and love one another. For example to believe that is inferior, a [I]thoughtcrime if you will, you are just as horrible as the person who kills a [insert race] person.

An example: Mel Gibson got drunk and tiraded against Jews. Regardless of whether they actually are responsible for all the wars or not, the prevailing view among his peers is that alcohol loosened his tongue and revealed his true feelings and that those feelings are justification enough to remove him from their society. (I personally think that's retarded, but I'm just stating an example.)

I'd like to see a link please.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10248258&postcount=21

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118610&postcount=148

There are other posts especially DK, but other posters as well. Too much to look them all up. I have seen a lot over the last 2 1/2 years here.

I don't think this is an answerable question anymore than "Are white people bad?" or "Are people who live in Japan bad?". For what it's worth I personally feel that many in the Christian community don't fully follow Jesus' teachings, and I'm not going to claim that I'm an expert on them because I'm not. I have on many occasions while attending services that we really aren't doing what Jesus told us to do, and the reading and research I have done seems to indicate that this is true. I did find the comment in the original post (and I wish I knew how to make the "Quote" feature work) that Jesus would not support a Free Market economy. I hadn't given any thought to that, but will look into it.

As for the original question: You can't classify whole groups so easily.

I'm going to have to say no to the question in bold, even if I agree with your post as a whole. Today we're saying that tolerance, basically saying I can't stand you but I'll agree to share the same space as you, still promotes disharmony. Tolerance doesn't go far enough. All it prevents is side A from killing side B. No, nowadays we're teaching our children to embrace the differences between us and love one another. For example to believe that is inferior, a [I]thoughtcrime if you will, you are just as horrible as the person who kills a [insert race] person.

An example: Mel Gibson got drunk and tiraded against Jews. Regardless of whether they actually are responsible for all the wars or not, the prevailing view among his peers is that alcohol loosened his tongue and revealed his true feelings and that those feelings are justification enough to remove him from their society. (I personally think that's retarded, but I'm just stating an example.)

Well in the end of course we need for people to be accepting of people with different beliefs. We cannot have religions or any other belief systems telling its supporters that they are better then everyone else. While violence will most likely not occur from this idea it does keep us divided as people. I suppose in the end having the entire planet all under a single moral code would be nice but it seems pretty doubtful.

yes, we are terrible, I even hate myself for being so hateful.

that belongs on a shirt that needs to be sold to emo kids around the nation for maximum profit

I have no opinion of them as people, however Im not a big fan of their faith.

Why are you hateful?

When you forgive someone, you set the prisoner free, and the prisoner was you.

not hateful. I was being sarcastic (or attempting to be)

This is a loaded question.

I do think that christian belief is detrimental, but not that Christians are bad for it. I would say that Christians are rather normal, whether that is good or bad is up to you.

not hateful. I was being sarcastic (or attempting to be)
Good!! :)

The only time I dislike them are when they push thier beliefs on others. However, that does not just apply to Christians.

As in any group, there are bad and good Christians. The best people I've known have been Christians with a strong sense of what they learned as Christian morals. In all things they do, they attempt to live up to an ideal and are more successful at it than most people I know. But, the ideal they live up to is one that contains a measure of intolerance towards things like gay marriage, non-Christians, and the seperation of church and state.

I admire them as people for their persistence, energy, forthrightness, and ability to hold to a consistently straight course. At the same time, the course they took frustrates me because they have closed their mind to what they regard as dangerous ideas and don't attempt to understand them, even refusing to debate with me. Their religion makes them good people, but very fearful and timid followers, when some could easily be leaders or brilliant thinkers. It just seems to be such a waste to me.

But no, Christians aren't bad people. But the ideals I've seen practiced, not necessarily the ones all Christians practice, need some work.

As in any group, there are bad and good Christians. The best people I've known have been Christians with a strong sense of what they learned as Christian morals. In all things they do, they attempt to live up to an ideal and are more successful at it than most people I know. But, the ideal they live up to is one that contains a measure of intolerance towards things like gay marriage, non-Christians, and the seperation of church and state.

I admire them as people for their persistence, energy, forthrightness, and ability to hold to a consistently straight course. At the same time, the course they took frustrates me because they have closed their mind to what they regard as dangerous ideas and don't attempt to understand them, even refusing to debate with me. Their religion makes them good people, but very fearful and timid followers, when some could easily be leaders or brilliant thinkers. It just seems to be such a waste to me.

But no, Christians aren't bad people. But the ideals I've seen practiced, not necessarily the ones all Christians practice, need some work.

I take exception to this idea that Christians must necessarily be intolerant of the beliefs of others and wage some kind of disinformation campaign to cover up any information that they think is wrong. I know that there have been several medieval Christian thinkers who advocated this, and even a papal encyclical back in the day, but the overwhelming volume of Christian thought says that you cannot coerce or bludgeon someone into the faith.

Why would God make us rational if he did not want us to use our reason to find him? No, if a Christian is intolerant, it’s because people are intolerant and that one is just a bad Christian, it’s up to each person to determine, through reason and in an atmosphere of love that man can not be the measure of all things, that faith exists, and that you must love your neighbor.

I have met very few people who manage to practice the faith well every day of their lives, but these people, who lead by example, are some of the best, most cheerful, kind, and brave people I have ever met who offend no one and only seem to make the people around them better for it.

Christianity is bad. I’m friends with some good Christians.

Christians aren't bad people, no matter what people may tell you. Alot of people hold the "People in group A did this, so group A must be evil" view, especially those who are more easily controlled by extremists. It's basically blaming you for your neighbor's actions and his father's actions. Of course, saying that all Christians are evil might not get you in as much danger as simply drawing a picture of Mohommad. It also won't get you branded a hater as much as being anti-semetic would.

This is all part of the "Oh, the poor, poor oppressed minorities. They are so oppressed by the nonminorities. Let's make the oppressive nonminorities compensate for their oppressiveness" mentallity.

Christians worship the devil. Of course they're bad people.

Seriously I don't dislike Christians as a group. I do dislike many fundie, intolerant, asshole Christians. I dislike many atheists too.

i think the're wonderful people with enough catchup and tobasco. maybe a little a-1 or worshtishire sauce.

i don't believe there is any such thing as being a good or bad person. only bennificial or harmful things that people do.

beliefs are as bennificial as the degree they encourage their fallowers to want to avoid causing suffering, and as harmful as the degree to which they encourage them to decieve themselves as to the mechanism by which this occurs.

christianity is notorious for the latter, though perhapse by no means unique in that reguard.

also chauvanism itself can often be a cause of suffering. and finnaly i don't believe anyone would be any worse off if no one had ever come up with the idea that anything needs to be infallable.

none of which has anything to do what so ever with what may or may not exist that no one knows anything about.

the fact that fanatics of every strip seem to miss is that no one does.

where as the mechanism by which the conditions we experience in everyday life is eminently and objectively researchable. without the need to referance any sort of theology. as likewise is the desirablity to avoid causing suffering.

=^^=
.../\...

This is as stupid as any general question.

Were Holy Francisc, Holy Dominique, or Mother Theresa, for that matter, good?

Yes.

Were Sprenger and Institoris bad?

Yes.

Were they all Christians?

Yes.

So what's the friggin point?

I swear this thread was created for me.

Do I think Christians are bad people?

Yes, and no.

Many Christians are indeed bad people who use thier faith for all the wrong reasons, and I fear that a few more join thier ranks every day.
These people say and do horrible things, and encourage others to do the same in the name of God.
They ignore the important parts of thier teachings, and instead use thier faith to villianize those they view to be unwanted in thier idea of what society ought to be.

This has been no different from the day when thier religion began.

It is also no different than any other organized religion to have ever existed on this planet.
Nor is there any difference, in this regard, between its followers.

I think its people who are bad.
I think people learn to be stupid and petty, and care little for others, as a whole.
Its the good ones, that learn things like common sense, compassion, and wisdom , and most importantly, the ability to learn from all of these, and make good choices not just for one's self, but everyone who you come into contact with.

Christianity wont teach you that.
No religion will.

Im gonna stop here, before I get rolling on the religion itself.
This thread isnt about Christianity, its about Christians.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

They're for the most just normal people. As long as they don't suddenly get to decide what I should do with my life, I have no problem with them. Same as with anyone else.

I swear this thread was created for me.

Do I think Christians are bad people?

Yes, and no.

Many Christians are indeed bad people who use thier faith for all the wrong reasons, and I fear that a few more join thier ranks every day.
These people say and do horrible things, and encourage others to do the same in the name of God.
They ignore the important parts of thier teachings, and instead use thier faith to villianize those they view to be unwanted in thier idea of what society ought to be.Yea, trust Christians to both vilify & demonize people at the same time :mad:

On a serious note though, I think orthodox people are bad. Regardless of whether they're Christians, commies or anything in between. Orthodoxy never leaves room for other people to be other people. The reason orthodox religious types get all the attention, is just a combination of there being a hell of a lot of them, and their religious scripture being so horrendously vile & amoral.

Yea, trust Christians to both vilify & demonize people at the same time :mad:

On a serious note though, I think orthodox people are bad. Regardless of whether they're Christians, commies or anything in between. Orthodoxy never leaves room for other people to be other people. The reason orthodox religious types get all the attention, is just a combination of there being a hell of a lot of them, and their religious scripture being so horrendously vile & amoral.


I dont really think its even the scripture.

The bible can be fairly cryptic and wide open to interperetation, as can the Torah, and Koran.
Its really about people who hate, interperating thier scriptures to justify thier own personal crusades.
Whatever it may be...

Its so much easier if "God hates______, just like I do"

i think the're wonderful people with enough catchup and tobasco. maybe a little a-1 or worshtishire sauce.

i don't believe there is any such thing as being a good or bad person. only bennificial or harmful things that people do.

beliefs are as bennificial as the degree they encourage their fallowers to want to avoid causing suffering, and as harmful as the degree to which they encourage them to decieve themselves as to the mechanism by which this occurs.

christianity is notorious for the latter, though perhapse by no means unique in that reguard.

also chauvanism itself can often be a cause of suffering. and finnaly i don't believe anyone would be any worse off if no one had ever come up with the idea that anything needs to be infallable.

none of which has anything to do what so ever with what may or may not exist that no one knows anything about.

the fact that fanatics of every strip seem to miss is that no one does.

where as the mechanism by which the conditions we experience in everyday life is eminently and objectively researchable. without the need to referance any sort of theology. as likewise is the desirablity to avoid causing suffering.

=^^=
.../\...

It’s true that one can make empirical observations without trying to determine purpose, but you can’t make the claim that suffering is undesirable without referencing metaphysics, and to reference metaphysics while ignoring theology would be to severely limit your inquiry. Empirical observation can tell us how things work, but it has never made claims as to why things work. For that you need some kind of faith, be it in some sort of natural law or a deity or something greater than yourself; and to hold that belief without ever exploring it is a rotten shame.

P.S. Protestants have never made doctrinal claims to infallibility.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

Some of them are some aren't. Same with every group of people.

But if most Christians want to live in a society that mirrors their beliefs, does that make them bad people?

Yes, due to their beliefs...

Viva left-libertarianism!

EDIT: And I mean that DISREGARDING EVERYTHING ELSE THAT THEY DID.

In other words, a person like above is MORE EVIL than a clone who only differs in that he does not force his beliefs on others

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

No, I think Christians who pervert the Bible for their own ends, or use it to justify hatred, or who try to force their beliefs on others are bad people. Not every Christian does that, but just like the only voices one tends to hear from the Muslim community are the ones calling for jihad against the rest of the world, even though many Mulims might personally disagree with that, the only voices among Evangelical Christians in this country one hears are the ones advocating theocracy and condemming everyone else to hell.

What, no poll?

"Good" and "bad" are societal fictions. I personally don't like some people who happen to be Christian, and I personally don't like some other people who have nothing to do with Christianity. I doubt my personal opinions about certain people automatically make them "bad."

Stop lumping us into groups.:(
Hear, hear...

No, Christians are not bad people, and neither are muslims, Jews, Taoists, Buddhists, Jehovas witness... hmm, maybe scientologists? :p

But no! No sweeping generalisations, PLEASE! Geeze, I'm so tired of seeing that...

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

Real Christians, No. The neo-pharisees that get the headlines and ruin the word "christian", YES. Remember that the original pharisees were the religious conservatives at the time. They in the same way warped the religion to the extent that Jesus saved his harshest words for them.

Mat 7:22

There are some so called Christians posting here that are warmongers, and are full of hatred. Some have advocated Muslim genocide or sterilization. Some are racist and intolerant. IMHO they are very sick people.

Muslims are racist (anti-Semitic: they hate Jews) and intolerant (they spread their religion by the sword, or in the 21st century the suicide bomber or the WMD: "Convert to Islam or I will kill you, infidel!")

Well, most of them are, not all of them. Their inaccurately so-called "prophet", Mohammed, certainly WAS. He always went around saying things like "Kill the infidels! Fight them until they say that none has the right to be worshipped but "the god" (Allah literally means "the god" in Arabic; it is not a proper name)!"

In fact, Mohammed's dying words were "O god, kill all the Jews and Christians!"

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

The reason Christians act "bad" sometimes (and I'll grant you we SHOULDN'T), is because we have TWO natures in us:
1. the "old man", also called the "flesh", the nature we and everybody else were born with, and:
2. the "new man", also called the "spirit", the nature God gave us when we believed on His Son Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.

These two natures are aware of, contrary to, and fighting against, each other, "so that ye cannot do the things that ye would", i.e., walking according to one without resistance, opposition, and protest from the other.

Christians are in a daily struggle between the "old man" and the "new man", and sometimes, the "old man" wins. He SHOULDN'T, but sometimes he does.

Christians are only "good" people because we have the Holy Spirit living in them. Paul the Apostle wrote in the book of Romans, "in my FLESH dwelleth no good thing." The "flesh" is no good. The "Spirit" is what makes Christians capable of being "good" people and bringing glory and honor to God.

Many, many Christians are okay, even if I don't agree with some of their beliefs (perhaps the most significant one being that I believe that Jesus was mortal, not immortal).

The thing that annoys me about Christianity is the same reason why I also do not like other religions: The lack of accepting people who do not conform to the way they think.
In the eyes of some (not all by any means) Christians:
I believe Jesus was mortal, and that you should pray to God, not Jesus, as he was a man- a remarkable man, maybe even a miracle worker, but still just a man. Therefore, I am going to burn in hell.
I do not believe that every single sperm is sacred. Therefore, I am going to burn in hell.
I would socialise with such "sinners" as homosexuals, bisexuals, people who say "oh my God", people who swear, etc- I'm unsure about me going to hell for that one, but certainly those good people, who do not have I choice in what feels right for them (such as is with many hmosexuals) or picked up a habit at a young age from their parents, or a friend or relative ("taking the Lord's name in vain") probably will.
I am not a Christian, I do not practise Christianity, I do not believe with all aspects of Christianity, if I feel the need to be forgiven by God I will pray directly to him, instead of to Jesus or going to confession/getting an absolution: Therefore I am going to burn in hell.

But bad people? Not all Christians, but there are some who I wouldn't want to know- the ones who (verbally) cast everyone into hell if they don't agree.

EDIT: Of course, Christians who kill, rape, assult, etc, aren't good people either, although that goes without saying.

Christians are evil because they generalize about everybody. I say kill them all. Then we would be rid of all religious conflict an intolerence.

Christians are evil because they generalize about everybody. I say kill them all. Then we would be rid of all religious conflict an intolerence.

As opposed to, say, generalizing about all Christians. :rolleyes:

As opposed to, say, generalizing about all Christians. :rolleyes:

Kepitan Obvious in teh HOUSE!

Muslims are racist (anti-Semitic: they hate Jews) and intolerant (they spread their religion by the sword, or in the 21st century the suicide bomber or the WMD: "Convert to Islam or I will kill you, infidel!")

Well, most of them are, not all of them. Their inaccurately so-called "prophet", Mohammed, certainly WAS. He always went around saying things like "Kill the infidels! Fight them until they say that none has the right to be worshipped but "the god" (Allah literally means "the god" in Arabic; it is not a proper name)!"

In fact, Mohammed's dying words were "O god, kill all the Jews and Christians!"
Technically, Arabs are also a Semitic race. So Muslims are not anti-Semite. And besides that, opposing Israel's occupation of Palestine is worlds different than hating Jews. I strongly dislike China's terrible human rights record, but that doesn't mean I'm racist against Chinese people.

Do you want to get me a quote from the Quran or Haditha on those last two paragraphs? Because frankly, you're full of shit.

Perhaps beliefs are the root of all illusion. The evidence suggests that we don't need beliefs to function as humans.

What I find scary is that so many people feel the need to "believe in something" ... and more often than not, to believe that some religious tradition, or some holy book, or some (charismatic, or just annoyingly loud) person has the answers to the meaning of life and everything. And then demand that everyone else believe the same things ....

In my experience, Christians can be all right, despite their beliefs -- especially when they let go and forget the Jesus obsession for a while.

Muslims are racist (anti-Semitic: they hate Jews) and intolerant (they spread their religion by the sword, or in the 21st century the suicide bomber or the WMD: "Convert to Islam or I will kill you, infidel!")

Well, most of them are, not all of them. Their inaccurately so-called "prophet", Mohammed, certainly WAS. He always went around saying things like "Kill the infidels! Fight them until they say that none has the right to be worshipped but "the god" (Allah literally means "the god" in Arabic; it is not a proper name)!"

In fact, Mohammed's dying words were "O god, kill all the Jews and Christians!"I spy with my little eye, a budding Christian terrorist suicide bomber.

Seriously though, these are the exact things orthodox Muslims say about Christians & Jews. It's also equally true, except that Jews prolly don't really bother with dying words, and the christian saviour seemingly had MPD at the end. Islam preaches respect, tolerance & non-interference for the people of the book (the other Abrahamites). Judaeism preaches that non-Jews are lower than animals, and Christianity that Jews are a sort of chosen/scum, and that everyone else is two-legged refuse.

It's all true, and it's all rubbish. Religious people, by & large, are human beings. They have some inherited & inate ethics that flat out contradicts large parts of their scripture, and fortunately, the vast majority of them believes that their own ethics supercedes scripture. Naturally most religious people aren't murderous raving loons. Sure, most walk the fine line between silly superstitions & schizophrenia, but the vast bulk of you aren't the human equivalent of Daleks.

In Britain, around 1% of the Muslim minority have terrorist sympathies. That's a lot of people, but it isn't a lot of Muslims. In predominantly peaceful countries like Turkey & Egypt, the number is only 2 or 3 times higher, and then we're talking about Muslim countries with a long history of suffering under western supremacy, extreme poverty, political instability & numerous, violent religious or civil wars.

Are you seriously claiming that other Abrahamites don't have a similar level of wannabe-evil-overlord orthodoxy?

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

I dont want them constantly in my yard yelling "repent sinner" at the house but otherwise they are OK. As far as my personal experience goes Ive suffered fewer Christians in my face being abusively intolerant and spouting they know the One True way while visciously attacking anyone who dares doubt their belief than I have Atheists. Some of those Atheiest zealots are remarkably reluctant to just quietly coexist. Especially one that is attempting to save the damned world by converting everyone else to his beliefs.

You would not believe the way the some of the ones who are expounding the virtues and sense of atheisn operate! It is hilarious but sad. Funnier still is when some of the more rabid enthusiasts get on a recruiting roll. It most closely resembles a tourettes syndrom sufferer attempting to seduce an entire charm school graduating class.

The typical Atheist Conversion spiel is even worse than a Southern freakin Baptist telling me I'll go to hell and suffer! I swear! They dont try to threaten peeps into the fold like Baprists, instead they attempt to insult them in! It's all about "You believe in silly fairy tales, I am an Argeist and I know" or "Teh religion is teh Ebul" or "You poor deluded sons of bitches think that" or "Inlike you I base all of thoughts on pure logic and science" I couldnt make this up it's true! Hell they dont even offer any reason to dump a God of choice for The One True way beyond that they cannot detect God and they are presumably the nes plus ultra therefore no person can detect God therefore God is myth. Serious ly that last bit and insults is the extent of how they spread their belief system. It is as fascinating as a car wreck to witness but the insults wear thin eventually and any ordinary person who just wants to coexist without adopting someone elses ideals will find it tedious.

They are all bad people. Not just the Christians but everybody. Somebody sais it didn't they?

There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

No, despite the fact that I'm an athiest. Only the radicals of Christianity are bad, and as a matter of fact, the radicals of any belief are bad.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

Only the ones who insist that everyone must follow their religion and/or that use their religion to justify bigotry.

Hey Phelps this ones for you! :upyours:

No. Should I?

snip
You fail at trolling. *F-

Absolutely not, being christian in itself does not make you a bad person.

I only think people who profess to be Christian, yet show no tolerance nor understanding towards any - and every - one else who differs from their own narrow view on life and the world.
The ones who actively enjoy reading, and telling others about, any killings of people whom they've decided aren't as 'important' or 'worthy' as Christians.
The ones who seem to derive a great sense of enjoyment over reading about hundreds of innocents being killed - enjoyment solely due to those innocents being of a different, and thus 'false', religion.
Which goes completely against all the teachings of Jesus.
Not that this bothers them at all. Because, of course, they - being Christians - always have the higher moral ground to everyone else. Including Christ himself.

Good thing we don't know anyone like that, eh RockThe Cashbah?

There's something getting lost here that generally does in a thread like this. People tend to forget that Christians, even fundamentalist Christians, are just people, like everybody else. We have our good days and our bad, and we put our pants on one leg at a time just like you do.

(For those that wear pants, of course ;) )

My point? It's that we are constantly bombarded with negativity from people outside the faith, or even from different sects within it. My particular denomination catches more grief from other Christian denominations than we do from atheists, but it's all the same. Sometimes you get fed up with it, sometimes it just hits you when you're in the wrong mood, and sometimes you juat want people to back off. Sometmes that leads to people saying things in frustration they might otherwise have kept to themselves, or not thought of at all.

We see hypocrisy from people that insist they don't want us to evangelize to them, and then make it their business to tell us that our God is a phony, or that our Savior was nothing special. We have to hear that day in and day out, and find a way to keep smiling and keep the faith.

Most of the time we bite our tongue rather than point out that plenty of non-Christians talk out of one side of their mouth saying all beliefs should be protected, then out of the other side when they think it's just hilarious to make Jesus Christ the object of derision or bad humor.

Are there some among us who are racist? Sure. But racists come in all flavors, friends. And no, the KKK ain't Christian, no matter what they claim. Are there those among us who are intolerant of other beliefs? Well like with anything else, yeah... But intolerance isn't unique to any religion no matter how big nor small.

Being Christian isn't about perfection. None of us are, and none of us will be on this earth... but the point is to always strive to improve oneself, trying to become perfect because even though we can never reach that pinnacle, we benefit from the effort nonetheless.

So I guess the point of this is summed up by the Master Himself, Jesus Christ when He said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."*

*For those unfamiliar with the story, in the old days when Rome controlled Jerusalem and the region was populated by Jews almost exclusively, there was a woman who had been condemned to death under Mosaic Law because of her sin (adultery), and a crowd of people had gathered to stone her to death. Jesus boldly walked to the center of the ring and stood by her, and said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." The crowd got the point and left. The woman was spared.

No. I dont think Christians are bad people. Not as a whole. There are individuals that suck, but that is true of many groups.

Perception --> factive evidence --> hypotheses --> beliefs --> faith --> obsessive beliefs --> delusions

Perceptions, of course, are shaped and constrained by mental models, and are very much LIMITED by beliefs, faith, etc. When you believe that someone is your enemy, it is much more likely that you will perceive some facial gestures, perhaps completely neutral, as a grimace of dislike. This goes beyond "interpreting" a neutrally perceived event as "probably" meaning one thing or another -- it is precluding the perception of the event in a manner that approaches objectivity. (Approaching objectivity implies the acknowledgement of biases and prejudices and deliberately making the effort to set such aside.)

Evidence can be used scientifically, or can be abused by partiality. When evidence is collected in an unbiased manner, or with a consistent but recognized bias, it is possible to make cogent statements about hypotheses, usually on a probabilistic basis. If the evidence is not "countable" then fuzzy logic type of proabability can be used.

The hypothesis level of model has two possible "factive" states: either the hypothesis is [a] not yet disproved or disproved. To function effectively as humans, we do not ~need~ beliefs -- we can work quite well with hypotheses. The personal sense of the "strength" of a "not yet disproved" hypothesis is typically correlated to the number of personal experiences, with scientifically recorded experimental results a distant second. We consider the strength of "The Law of Gravity" to be extremely strong ... we've fallen enough times to demonstrate "The Law" to ourselves many times.

But perhaps [B]belief does not add to models at the hypothesis level. If Newton had not ~believed~ in absolute time, it seems very likely that he would have developed a robust theory of relativity a couple of centuries before Einstein. His belief limited his mental flexibility, constrained his capacity to imagine alternative explanations.

In the OJ Simpson trial, it was called "rush to judgement". Belief is wishful thinking ... it is deliberately saying "that hypothesis that's not yet disproved -- well, I'm not going to bother thinking of it that way anymore, and I'm not going to bother to test the assumption of it's factive truth any more -- I'm going to accept it as true, and believe in it, even though I know better, because it's convenient for me to do so."

In other words: "I want it it to be true, so I'm going to believe (in) it." Is there some other definition of wishful thinking?

The belief that there is no God is as much a belief as the belief that there is a God and that s/he has human attributes, and that s/he is X or Y or A. Why operate on the basis of wishful thinking????

***
The remaining chain (beliefs --> faith --> obsessive beliefs --> delusions) crosses the line at the point that everyone else has to believe as I do to help me prop up my sense of integrity.

I do NOT think badly of people who, having found an INHERENTLY UNDECIDEABLE question (will the little white ball fall on red or black?) decide to place a bet, and experiment, to assign meaning to one or the other, even when the question will not or cannot ever be answered. I also honor those who choose not to bet at all, but to turn away to other activities.

I do not, however, feel obliged to honor those who are TRUE BELIEVERS, convinced that red is right and black is wrong, or vice versa. Nor do I feel obliged to tolerate those whose mania brings them to the point of zealous evangelism and who overstep their remit and tread upon social courtesy. Those who would try to enforce their beliefs by making laws to demand that I comply with the scruples that follow their beliefs I consider my enemies.

Of the psychopaths who use, or are used by, their religious beliefs as the justification for criminal acts I will not speak, only notice that mad dogs and injured horses are shot, with compassion, to put them out of their misery, and to limit the danger they bear in their persons. I would say that fanatically obsessed muslims, jews, or christians, or similarly deranged hindus, buddhists or jains, or the delusional believers of any religion .. including believers in "scientism" ... all deserve the same compassionate treatment.

Perhaps you can stop believing, if you try.

Depends on the individual. As with nearly any group that large, you cannot begin to make a decent generalisation, and any you do make is probably pretty irrelevant and pointless.

I'm a Christian, and I'd never dream of taking away a woman's right to abort. (Even if I think it's murder.) And the government should stay out of marriage. Period. Stop lumping us into groups.:(

What??? That's way worse than thinking abortion is not killing babies just masses of cells or whatever people are saying lately.

So you don't think murder should be illegal? I thought the whole deal with abortion should be legal is that it they're not supposed to be people or something.

most of them are for the free market and capitalism.
Is that so? Remember, while Jesus may not have been a clear-cut communist or any modern ideology, the phrase "from each according his ability, to each according his need," was based on a phrase in the Bible.

What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.
Intolerant, hateful people are bad, whether Christian or not.

Why is it "laughably ridiculous"? It has been advocated by more than one Christian.
Well, there's Deep Kimchi, and in any case, based on his opinions and lifestyle, Christianity is only tangientally connected to his life.

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

1. Nearly as many christians support abortion as opposse. Not quite so for gay marriage, but close.
2. Jesus was a communist!!
3. Much of mainstream organized christian churchs teach intolerance, something Jesus would have a little chat with them about...

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

Hang-ups...you mean opinions right? Jerk-off.
I am sorry I unfamiliar where Jesus was jabbering on about being against the free market, not saying he was for it, but where in hell does being for a free market make someone not be striving to be like Jesus?

I would think not being forgiving would be a little higher, or maybe showboating in your new suit as opposed to genuine worship on the sabbath.

But thats just me I guess.

Hateful, I see so people who claim to be Christians have the market cornered on Hatefulness. I did not know that.

Christians killed my mother and raped my father, then aborted my unborn child. Since then, I've been fighting my way to the top of the Roman Catholic church....I've killed alot of people to get to this point....Now I'm going to KILL BENEDICT.

KILL BENEDICT Vol. 2!

Coming this December!

So you may not agree with Christians because of their hang-ups on abortion, or gay marriage. And some of you may think that they don't really follow what Jesus taught, as most of them are for the free market and capitalism. What I would like to know is, does this make them "bad" people-intolerant, hateful, etc.

For lack of time, I'm not wading through all of the previous comments.

I do not think Christians as a whole are bad people. I do think that certain Christians are overly judgemental and therefore hypocritical. While many of them have good intentions, I think far too many missed the concept. I thought it was to accept and forgive, not deny and condemn.

I spy with my little eye, a budding Christian terrorist suicide bomber.

Seriously though, these are the exact things orthodox Muslims say about Christians & Jews. It's also equally true, except that Jews prolly don't really bother with dying words, and the christian saviour seemingly had MPD at the end. Islam preaches respect, tolerance & non-interference for the people of the book (the other Abrahamites). Judaeism preaches that non-Jews are lower than animals, and Christianity that Jews are a sort of chosen/scum, and that everyone else is two-legged refuse.

It's all true, and it's all rubbish. Religious people, by & large, are human beings. They have some inherited & inate ethics that flat out contradicts large parts of their scripture, and fortunately, the vast majority of them believes that their own ethics supercedes scripture. Naturally most religious people aren't murderous raving loons. Sure, most walk the fine line between silly superstitions & schizophrenia, but the vast bulk of you aren't the human equivalent of Daleks.

In Britain, around 1% of the Muslim minority have terrorist sympathies. That's a lot of people, but it isn't a lot of Muslims. In predominantly peaceful countries like Turkey & Egypt, the number is only 2 or 3 times higher, and then we're talking about Muslim countries with a long history of suffering under western supremacy, extreme poverty, political instability & numerous, violent religious or civil wars.

Are you seriously claiming that other Abrahamites don't have a similar level of wannabe-evil-overlord orthodoxy?

I'm no theologian, I don't know a whole lot about what the Koran says, but I do know that Christians and Jews treat their Muslims far better than the Muslims treat their Christians and Jews.

I agree with the second paragraph. Very well said.

I think you may want to reconsider your 1% statistic. In a recent poll, 34% of British Muslims indicated they want sharia law, and only 17% said they think Arabs had anything at all to do with 9/11. Only 1% support terrorists? You decide for yourself.

Hang-ups...you mean opinions right? Jerk-off.
I am sorry I unfamiliar where Jesus was jabbering on about being against the free market, not saying he was for it, but where in hell does being for a free market make someone not be striving to be like Jesus?

I would think not being forgiving would be a little higher, or maybe showboating in your new suit as opposed to genuine worship on the sabbath.

But thats just me I guess.

Hateful, I see so people who claim to be Christians have the market cornered on Hatefulness. I did not know that.
Uh, I'm not even Christian myself. I really don't understand why you're attacking me, I was asking a legitimate question, I wasn't trying to single any group out for a rhetorical beating.

I'm no theologian, I don't know a whole lot about what the Koran says, but I do know that Christians and Jews treat their Muslims far better than the Muslims treat their Christians and Jews.In terms of advice & commands to commit outright crimes, subjugate, plunder & such, the Qu'ran is worse than the NT & quite a bit less vile than the OT. Basically, if you can find it in the Qu'ran, it's in either the OT or NT as well. My bookmark seems to have gone missing, but there's several free & easily manuverable English translations online, so Go-Go-Gaogle!I agree with the second paragraph. Very well said.Thanks.I think you may want to reconsider your 1% statistic. In a recent poll, 34% of British Muslims indicated they want sharia law, and only 17% said they think Arabs had anything at all to do with 9/11. Only 1% support terrorists? You decide for yourself.I have a feeling we may be talking about the same survey. Wanting Sharia law doesn't make you a terrorist sympathiser, neither does being a conspiracy theorist. It's 2-3 months old, yes?

Regardless, if you look at a place like the US, you'll see that a similar number of Christians wants Bible-based legislation. It's essentially the same, because if you ask those 34% you'll find that the majority of them actually wants a democratic government, just combined with Islamic law. Seems to be a general trend among the religious lot to desire more government, more intervention in people's personal lives & much, much more punishment. I occationally wonder if that kind of people get off on fantasizing about brutalized prisoners... Oh well.
Of course, America is just a handy example. Even more so, because as far as I recall, a similar number of people believe their own government attacked them on 9/11. Tragi-comic somehow, init?