NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey, Would anyone know if there happens to be an equivalent to "Paint" on the Macbook? If not, any suggestions on how to Draw a Countries Map?

Yeah, on Appleworks you can paint. Just start it up, and you'll have the option of creating a document, a spreadsheet, a painting, a drawing, and a few other things.

Buy a real PC.

Buy a real PC.

The hardware is just fine if over priced … format it with *nix

Umm I only opend this coz I thought it wa some Macy D's referance. Uughh now I feel all dirty and despoiled:(

If not, any suggestions on how to Draw a Countries Map?

use this program http://www.profantasy.com/products/ft.asp

Buy a real PC.

*coughs* Are you referring to one of those TVs that always crash?

*coughs* Are you referring to one of those TVs that always crash?

Always crash ... I have my little gateway desktop running a trimed down version of FreeBSD that has been running for a little over 2 years now without a reboot ... standard PC hardware. Did not get over charged for the hardware either

Always crash ... I have my little gateway desktop running a trimed down version of FreeBSD that has been running for a little over 2 years now without a reboot ... standard PC hardware. Did not get over charged for the hardware either

my dell laptop (ok, it was expensive) with WinXP hasn't given me any software problems... ever, iirc :)

in fact since winXP came out, i think the only computer problems i've had have been entirely hardware related (don't buy Maxtor HD's, people!!)

And the viruses? You never see 'Fat Elvis' etc. on a Mac. Maybe that's true with PC's (*shudders at the name*), but at least on a Mac you don't have to go out and buy expensive anti-virus software.

And the PC interface? The Mac's is far superior in simplicity and ease of use.

I could go on and on, but I have work to do. Your choice, though. If you like PC's, then I'm not going to stop you from using them. You're completely entitled to your opinion.

And the viruses? You never see 'Fat Elvis' etc. on a Mac. Maybe that's true with PC's (*shudders at the name*), but at least on a Mac you don't have to go out and buy expensive anti-virus software.

Though in all honesty that has more to do with the small marketshare Apple has. Scriptkiddies just do not give a shit about those few MacUsers. Apples security is only slighlty better than that of MS - despite MacOs X being *nix based.

And the viruses? You never see 'Fat Elvis' etc. on a Mac. Maybe that's true with PC's (*shudders at the name*), but at least on a Mac you don't have to go out and buy expensive anti-virus software.

And the PC interface? The Mac's is far superior in simplicity and ease of use.

I could go on and on, but I have work to do. Your choice, though. If you like PC's, then I'm not going to stop you from using them. You're completely entitled to your opinion.

I sort of agree, what yo use is up to you. Although I will say that you don't really need expensive antivirus software, if you know how to use a pc.

Though in all honesty that has more to do with the small marketshare Apple has. Scriptkiddies just do not give a shit about those few MacUsers. Apples security is only slighlty better than that of MS - despite MacOs X being *nix based.

Darwin is full of holes … it may be based off of FreeBSD but they threw away about half of the conventions that make FreeBSD among the most secure operating systems in existence

Always crash ... I have my little gateway desktop running a trimed down version of FreeBSD that has been running for a little over 2 years now without a reboot ... standard PC hardware. Did not get over charged for the hardware either

Yep. So everyone shoul go out and learn *ix operating system and put it on a PC. Or, if you don't have the time and just want a more trouble free experience stick with Mac. It's far more stable and there aren't nearly as many viruses, worms, adware, malware, etc...

Yep. So everyone shoul go out and learn *ix operating system and put it on a PC. Or, if you don't have the time and just want a more trouble free experience stick with Mac. It's far more stable and there aren't nearly as many viruses, worms, adware, malware, etc...

There will be if everyone migrates to it.

Yep. So everyone shoul go out and learn *ix operating system and put it on a PC. Or, if you don't have the time and just want a more trouble free experience stick with Mac. It's far more stable and there aren't nearly as many viruses, worms, adware, malware, etc...

Whats there to learn? Have you even tried a desktop distro like ubuntu? Frigging idiot proof, even a mac user could figure out whats going on

There will be if everyone migrates to it.

No shit with darwins gaping holes …

And the viruses? You never see 'Fat Elvis' etc. on a Mac. Maybe that's true with PC's (*shudders at the name*), but at least on a Mac you don't have to go out and buy expensive anti-virus software.

And the PC interface? The Mac's is far superior in simplicity and ease of use.

I could go on and on, but I have work to do. Your choice, though. If you like PC's, then I'm not going to stop you from using them. You're completely entitled to your opinion.

Yep. I use all three platforms in my line of work and if you know what you are doing *ix is the best OS, but if you don't have the time to learn a whole new operating system and just want a trouble free comp get a Mac.

Yep. I use all three platforms in my line of work and if you know what you are doing *ix is the best OS, but if you don't have the time to learn a whole new operating system and just want a trouble free comp get a Mac.

I found transitioning for windows to ubuntu as easy or easier then from windows to Mac OS. What features besides the video/photo editing does Mac offer me over ubuntu?

Whats there to learn? Have you even tried a desktop distro like ubuntu? Frigging idiot proof, even a mac user could figure out whats going on

No, you can figure it out because you're computer literate. For most people even going back and forth between Windoze and Mac is a pain. You understand operating systems so when you are confronted with a new one you understand that all teh bells and whistles are there you just need to find them. Most people just want to go on the internet and have a DVD play the second they put it in the drive. Most people I encounter not only can't do something as simple as dumping their cookies, they don't even know what they are. I would reccomend to anyone who has the time and the interest to do exactly what you are saying, but most people don't have the time or the interest. They want to sit down and plug stuff in and open their browser and their email and that's it.

The problem is that a user like this will get trashed on a PC because they WILL get infected and fast. I know plenty of Mac users who are just not technologically inclined. I know plenty of PC users that are not technologically inclined. The Mac users invariably have a much better time with their comps than the PC users. If you really know what you are doing and you understand OS's in general and you understand security then it really doesn't matter what platform you use. But if you don't and you don't have the time or the interest in becoming a computer expert, stick with Mac.

The problem is that a user like this will get trashed on a PC because they WILL get infected and fast. I know plenty of Mac users who are just not technologically inclined. I know plenty of PC users that are not technologically inclined. The Mac users invariably have a much better time with their comps than the PC users. If you really know what you are doing and you understand OS's in general and you understand security then it really doesn't matter what platform you use. But if you don't and you don't have the time or the interest in becoming a computer expert, stick with Mac.

... which is what irritates me with mac users claiming their OS is better or safter than windows. that and what was mentioned before about there being fewer security risks for mac users due to hackers/etc not being interested in the small market.
in theory that'll change and we'll see mac's getting worse and worse saftey records. where will computer illiterate people turn then?

No, you can figure it out because you're computer literate. For most people even going back and forth between Windoze and Mac is a pain. You understand operating systems so when you are confronted with a new one you understand that all teh bells and whistles are there you just need to find them. Most people just want to go on the internet and have a DVD play the second they put it in the drive. Most people I encounter not only can't do something as simple as dumping their cookies, they don't even know what they are. I would reccomend to anyone who has the time and the interest to do exactly what you are saying, but most people don't have the time or the interest. They want to sit down and plug stuff in and open their browser and their email and that's it.

I would agree for some of the more obsure *nixes but some of the desktop distros are easier to install and maintain then the big boys ... ubuntu is my fav of thoes ... my mom is even running an ubuntu machine ... it has aim and can do gmail thats all she wanted

No problem for a 55 year old nurse with no comp skills

The problem is that a user like this will get trashed on a PC because they WILL get infected and fast. I know plenty of Mac users who are just not technologically inclined. I know plenty of PC users that are not technologically inclined. The Mac users invariably have a much better time with their comps than the PC users. If you really know what you are doing and you understand OS's in general and you understand security then it really doesn't matter what platform you use. But if you don't and you don't have the time or the interest in becoming a computer expert, stick with Mac.

While MS is a big target they have been doing some good things after SP2 … actually we have seen less then 20 infected computers this year out of 3000 … that’s saying a lot

Some of the basic things they are doing is auto updates and the firewall are deployed automatically without user intervention. It has made a night and day difference in the quality of computing we see here

It's far more stable and there aren't nearly as many viruses, worms, adware, malware, etc...

Well DUH!

How many macs are there? How many PC?

If you were going to write that stuff, guess what you would target?

There aren't many mac bugaboos simply because the reach isn't that great.

Well DUH!

How many macs are there? How many PC?

If you were going to write that stuff, guess what you would target?

There aren't many mac bugaboos simply because the reach isn't that great.

Whatever the reason, the fact still remains. Whe you're 5 years old it doesn't matter whether there's a santa Claus or not as long as you wake up on Christmas morning with a tree full of presents.

The problem is that a user like this will get trashed on a PC because they WILL get infected and fast. I know plenty of Mac users who are just not technologically inclined. I know plenty of PC users that are not technologically inclined. The Mac users invariably have a much better time with their comps than the PC users. If you really know what you are doing and you understand OS's in general and you understand security then it really doesn't matter what platform you use. But if you don't and you don't have the time or the interest in becoming a computer expert, stick with Mac.

My networks have been bug free for a long time and I deal with software engineers who know how to disable stuff.

Mac user vs PC user. There is no blaring difference in work output. If there was, we would change. We spend tons of money on computers all the time.

As to understanding? I also deal with Salesmen and I have seen them pick up what upward described faster then converting to OS X.

OS X is a nice OS but it's not perfect. We ran it through the ringer on a few projects and it came up short(data sharing between PC and unix). It didn't help however, that apple did a "slight of hand" on pricing too.

Whatever the reason, the fact still remains. Whe you're 5 years old it doesn't matter whether there's a santa Claus or not as long as you wake up on Christmas morning with a tree full of presents.

Can somebody translate this for me?

Whatever the reason, the fact still remains. Whe you're 5 years old it doesn't matter whether there's a santa Claus or not as long as you wake up on Christmas morning with a tree full of presents.

In the end it does because they are not going to be avoided forever ... and people basing their security on obscurity are going to fall hard and its going to cost people and companies a TON of money in down time and money upgrading to things that are standard practice elsewhere

Not only that but having to retrain all these people that are over confident as to their security … people change slow

Can somebody translate this for me?

You dont care why things are as they are ... just caring that the end effect is possitive

In the end it does because they are not going to be avoided forever ... and people basing their security on obscurity are going to fall hard and its going to cost people and companies a TON of money in down time and money upgrading to things that are standard practice elsewhere

Not only that but having to retrain all these people that are over confident as to their security … people change slow


Ok. Now I get it. Thanks ;)

I would agree for some of the more obsure *nixes but some of the desktop distros are easier to install and maintain then the big boys ... ubuntu is my fav of thoes ... my mom is even running an ubuntu machine ... it has aim and can do gmail thats all she wanted

No problem for a 55 year old nurse with no comp skills And I'll agree tha they are getting easier. I have mandrake on my Mac at home and it was much easier to install than teh Redhat I used on my server, but it's still not as easy as mac. With a mac, you just plug it in, enter your name and email address and a second later you're opening yrou email and reading cnn.com. Your mom also has a comp expert to help her at beckon call.


While MS is a big target they have been doing some good things after SP2 … actually we have seen less then 20 infected computers this year out of 3000 … that’s saying a lot

Some of the basic things they are doing is auto updates and the firewall are deployed automatically without user intervention. It has made a night and day difference in the quality of computing we see here

Well, I don't know what company you work for or how big it is but that hasn't been our experience at Technicolor. We still have problems with shit getting through the FWs and we have a security apparatus that has to cost 7 figures. Our firewalls are 5 and 6 figures and they still can't keep everything out. In the five years I have been here I have yet to see an infected Mac and they are all on the same network. Our PCs get DOS'd at least once a month. Not that DOS is a big problem for us, but the point is that the attacks target our PCs - and are almost certainly coming from a whole shitload of PC users out there who don't even know they are attacking us.

There will be if everyone migrates to it.

There would be more yes. But not nearly the millions of virueses that are out today. Mac is not as unpopular as you think yet viruses are relitivly low. Don't make youself look like a fool and know what you are talking about.

In the end it does because they are not going to be avoided forever ... and people basing their security on obscurity are going to fall hard and its going to cost people and companies a TON of money in down time and money upgrading to things that are standard practice elsewhere

Not only that but having to retrain all these people that are over confident as to their security … people change slow

They're not being ignored now. I get new security updates on my Mac all the time when new vulnerabilities are discovered. But in my opinion, for now and for a while into the future, for a beginning comp user you rbest bet if you want to go to the store and bring a box home, plug it in and have it just work right and not have many problems you are best off with a Mac. PC's still have over 90% of the home computing market and, though Mac is gaining share rapidly, PCs are still going to own the market for many years to come which means Windoze will still be the target OS for many years to come.

Even my whole IT department have switched to OSX over the last three years or so and these are guys with MS's in CS. They just like the ease of use and the relatively carefree world that Macs are still in.

And I'll agree tha they are getting easier. I have mandrake on my Mac at home and it was much easier to install than teh Redhat I used on my server, but it's still not as easy as mac. With a mac, you just plug it in, enter your name and email address and a second later you're opening yrou email and reading cnn.com. Your mom also has a comp expert to help her at beckon call.


I dont live with them ... she did not have me on hand besides the install which took what 4 clicks of next to complete

Well, I don't know what company you work for or how big it is but that hasn't been our experience at Technicolor. We still have problems with shit getting through the FWs and we have a security apparatus that has to cost 7 figures. Our firewalls are 5 and 6 figures and they still can't keep everything out. In the five years I have been here I have yet to see an infected Mac and they are all on the same network. Our PCs get DOS'd at least once a month. Not that DOS is a big problem for us, but the point is that the attacks target our PCs - and are almost certainly coming from a whole shitload of PC users out there who don't even know they are attacking us.
Work for a university about 15k students we deal with about 3000 students in the dorm

Not only are these computers not controlled by us they are all in about 500 computer subnets togeather

This is about as bad as it gets when a network aware worm hits no matter what we have for perimiter security someone walking a laptop from off to on campus was always an issue

But in the end the upgrades have helped ... noticably

They're not being ignored now. I get new security updates on my Mac all the time when new vulnerabilities are discovered. But in my opinion, for now and for a while into the future, for a beginning comp user you rbest bet if you want to go to the store and bring a box home, plug it in and have it just work right and not have many problems you are best off with a Mac. PC's still have over 90% of the home computing market and, though Mac is gaining share rapidly, PCs are still going to own the market for many years to come which means Windoze will still be the target OS for many years to come.

Even my whole IT department have switched to OSX over the last three years or so and these are guys with MS's in CS. They just like the ease of use and the relatively carefree world that Macs are still in.

Where as we (tech department) primarily use windows despite my personal *nix preference

It is always better to see what the people you support see … makes our life easier

This is about as bad as it gets when a network aware worm hits no matter what we have for perimiter security someone walking a laptop from off to on campus was always an issue


Unless it was a Powerbook... ;)

Well, I don't know what company you work for or how big it is but that hasn't been our experience at Technicolor. We still have problems with shit getting through the FWs and we have a security apparatus that has to cost 7 figures.


I can't offer an answer without really doing an analysis of your networks.

However, I would point out price means nothing if policy and prodcedures are in place and they aren't being enforced. I used to do Internetworking Security for the DOD and we rarely had any problems.

Security is never a plug it in and forgetaboutit thing. Attacks always evolve. You always have to monitor.

Heck it could be you have some execs son doing that for you. ;)


Our firewalls are 5 and 6 figures and they still can't keep everything out. In the five years I have been here I have yet to see an infected Mac and they are all on the same network. Our PCs get DOS'd at least once a month. Not that DOS is a big problem for us, but the point is that the attacks target our PCs - and are almost certainly coming from a whole shitload of PC users out there who don't even know they are attacking us.

If your PCs (inside the firewall) are getting DOS's then you really have problems with your setup. DOS attacks happen all the time. Our firewall which is not 5-6 figures deal with them just fine.

However, it could be your firewalls are dealing with the outside attacks and your people are carrying shit into your network.

Again. I don't know your setup Just my .02.....

There would be more yes. But not nearly the millions of virueses that are out today. Mac is not as unpopular as you think yet viruses are relitivly low. Don't make youself look like a fool and know what you are talking about.

I do know what I am talking about and he has a great point … hell I was even on the open Darwin development team for awhile . The holes are there … but that’s what happens when you bastardize a good OS

Where as we (tech department) primarily use windows despite my personal *nix preference

It is always better to see what the people you support see … makes our life easier

Sure, but our guys are burried under shiot like this everyday:

Additional background info:
Yesterday based on error messages and Cisco’s recommendation, a portion of the router was replaced: the Network Processing Engine (think brain). There were additional issues (router lost its operating system, configuration was not complete) that were resolved and Level 3 believed that they had things resolved once they worked those issues and restored connectivity. This morning the exact same thing happened, the router crashed, lost its operating system and the router booting only to low-level ROMMON mode. I just got off the phone with Level 3 and they’re requesting a complete chasis/router replacement today. Cisco is checking sparing and will shortly determine how quickly they can replace the device. One of the options we’re exploring is using a ‘spare’ router from Perivale, we’re working to determine if it has the proper capabilities. We’re waiting on a response from Cisco on an estimated replacement time, if their answer is not satisfactory then we may use Perivale’s spare and sort it out later.


What does this mean?

It’s 5pm in the UK, so Perivale got most of its business day with the connection up. Of course a lot of transfer work occurs after 5pm.
I’m in conversation with Matt Dicks right now to assess outage impact and look at possible workarounds.
Currently neither Oasis nor any other application relying on London TPN transport is available.
So they have no shortage of seeing what we operators see everyday. At home they don't want to think about any of that so they use Macs.

Unless it was a Powerbook... ;)

Back in when macs were prevalent, I remember problems with them.

If Macs start making it into corporations again(rather then one or two), you will see attacks. And as upward has mentioned, if they don't have defense software in place, the first attack will be nasty. Obscurity is no defense. Even the big Unix OSes have been attacked......

There would be more yes. But not nearly the millions of virueses that are out today. Mac is not as unpopular as you think yet viruses are relitivly low. Don't make youself look like a fool and know what you are talking about.

Sadly, I do know what I am talking about. MacOs security truly is only slightly better than that of XP.

Sure, but our guys are burried under shiot like this everyday:


So they have no shortage of seeing what we operators see everyday. At home they don't want to think about any of that so they use Macs.

But we have to support the actual end user machines as WELL as the networking equiment ... like I said best to be able to look at the menu that they are seeing

When it gets to the networking stuff I always preffer my FreeBSD box but thats another issue

I can't offer an answer without really doing an analysis of your networks.

However, I would point out price means nothing if policy and prodcedures are in place and they aren't being enforced. I used to do Internetworking Security for the DOD and we rarely had any problems.

Security is never a plug it in and forgetaboutit thing. Attacks always evolve. You always have to monitor.

Heck it could be you have some execs son doing that for you. ;)
wed don't. We have a top notch team. We are just highly visible. We have very little downtime and most of it is caused by glitches that have nothing to do with an attack, I'm simply pointingout that that's where the attacks occur. Our PCs, not our Macs.


If your PCs (inside the firewall) are getting DOS's then you really have problems with your setup. DOS attacks happen all the time. Our firewall which is not 5-6 figures deal with them just fine.

However, it could be your firewalls are dealing with the outside attacks and your people are carrying shit into your network.

Again. I don't know your setup Just my .02.....

As I said, we don't have a problem being DOSd and it never really effects our work flow. I'm just pointing out that it is PCs on both ends of the equation.

Back in when macs were prevalent, I remember problems with them.

If Macs start making it into corporations again(rather then one or two), you will see attacks. And as upward has mentioned, if they don't have defense software in place, the first attack will be nasty. Obscurity is no defense. Even the big Unix OSes have been attacked......

Often they are … the difference is the attitude of the users primarily … those that take the time to lock down their os.

Natively you can do ANYTHING in a *nix environment … when people choose not to secure their os *nix boxes can be the biggest security risks ever, and when they spend the time they are the most secure operating systems ever … it is all about the user mentality.

wed don't. We have a top notch team. We are just highly visible. We have very little downtime and most of it is caused by glitches that have nothing to do with an attack, I'm simply pointingout that that's where the attacks occur. Our PCs, not our Macs.

Do your macs share data? You might have a "typoid mary" situation going on. The worm/virus may not execute on the OSX but may hit a pc when accessed.

I've seen network appliance filers do this......

wed don't. We have a top notch team. We are just highly visible. We have very little downtime and most of it is caused by glitches that have nothing to do with an attack, I'm simply pointingout that that's where the attacks occur. Our PCs, not our Macs.




As I said, we don't have a problem being DOSd and it never really effects our work flow. I'm just pointing out that it is PCs on both ends of the equation.
DOS and DDOS attacks are one of the simplest and hardest to protect against attacks in existance ... in the end it is an external threat not controllable by the sort of workstations YOU use ... in this case windows or not on your end wont make much of a difference one way or another

Do your macs share data? You might have a "typoid mary" situation going on. The worm/virus may not execute on the OSX but may hit a pc when accessed.

I've seen network appliance filers do this......

That's not the problem. Our Macs share data but only things like Avid files and HD mpegs and other media files all of which originate with us. They are all on the internet so we can FTP to external sites like Dreamworks or ABC or whatever, but no one's opening their email on their Mac. When we get infected it's because one of the 50,000 or so employees we have worldwide have opened the wrong email on their PC.

That's not the problem. Our Macs share data but only things like Avid files and HD mpegs and other media files all of which originate with us. They are all on the internet so we can FTP to external sites like Dreamworks or ABC or whatever, but no one's opening their email on their Mac. When we get infected it's because one of the 50,000 or so employees we have worldwide have opened the wrong email on their PC.

There are worms that look for shares. If you don't secure them.....

There are worms that look for shares. If you don't secure them.....

They're secure. Our network is monitored 24/7/365 - even on Christmas eve. We pay a lot of money for the best people we can find all over the world. Our workflow is secure and is rarely interupted. Our office comps are a different story.

There are worms that look for shares. If you don't secure them.....

Yeah but that is usually more of a fault with general security permissions management and or that application issues.

Darwin did have some issues with the original implementation of FTP but that was locked down fairly early on (well not really they just got wise and copied something else from the *nix world)

They're secure. Our network is monitored 24/7/365 - even on Christmas eve. We pay a lot of money for the best people we can find all over the world. Our workflow is secure and is rarely interupted. Our office comps are a different story.

Yeah workstations can suck … we dropped like 15 power books because Apple managed to flurk up an WPA update removing keying options… it was weeks before they got that one solved. And was a major issue because our primary authentication to the wireless is done via VPN but there was no mac version of the software (nor integrated software like windows) that handles the encryption scheme we use.

That was a pain in the ass

Yeah workstations can suck … we dropped like 15 power books because Apple managed to flurk up an WPA update removing keying options… it was weeks before they got that one solved. And was a major issue because our primary authentication to the wireless is done via VPN but there was no mac version of the software (nor integrated software like windows) that handles the encryption scheme we use.

That was a pain in the ass

If someone at your office knew how to access the *nix tools via the terminal, you wouldn't have had a problem... the tools weren't taken away, apple just messed up the access to them via the desktop/preferences. That's happened a few times to a bunch of tools over the years, even pre-OS X.

---

I repair both Macs and PCs professionally. I'm the only guy in the city who will work with your mac at your home or office, rather then at my office. I've become quite expert with both Win and Mac systems, and I'm competant, thought NOT expert, on a variety of *nix builds.
Especially now that Apple switched to Intel-based systems, I favour the Mac OS systems. I use both regularly, and Win2k and WinXP are very much more reliable then previous versions, and so long as you don't do dumb things - like use Internet Exploder 6 or earlier - you can easily avoid the viruss' (BTW - every PC user... go download AVG NOW!!!! It's free antivirus, and it is better then whatever else you have!). ANYWAY, my point is I'm not one of those insane, brainwashed, pro-apple suck steve jobs' cock people, but I'd rather invest in a new Intel iMac or a MacBook (Pro or not) then in a PC equivalent, but if you need a tower for POWERHOUSE computing... I'd suggest you get someone to build you a PC. For my personal and professional use as a techie, and soon to be english teacher in Israel to Russian immagrents, I'm going to buy a mac.