NationStates Jolt Archive

ETA anuncia que seguirá con la lucha armada hasta conseguir la independencia de Euskadi

Agencias. Bilbao
Tres encapuchados que dijeron hablar en nombre de ETA difundieron ayer un mensaje en el marco del Gudari Eguna, en el que la organización terrorista dice que "hasta lograr la independencia y el socialismo de Euskal Herria reafirmamos nuestro compromiso de seguir empuñando las armas firmemente", según publican los diarios Gara y Berria.

El mensaje fue leído ayer tarde por tres personas encapuchadas y armadas que subieron al escenario montado con ocasión de un homenaje a los militantes de ETA fallecidos, celebrado en Aritxulegi (Oiartzun).

Ambos diarios publican en euskera el mensaje en un despiece enmarcado en una información más amplia sobre el homenaje citado. El texto del mensaje está ilustrado con una fotografía, en la que aparece uno de los encapuchados delante de un micrófono en actitud de leer un papel y otras dos personas encapuchadas detrás portando sendas armas.

Según el mensaje leído, "la lucha no es el pasado, es el presente y el futuro", se afirma cuando se cumplen seis meses del alto el fuego de la organización terrorista. El texto indica que el Gudari Eguna "no es para nosotros una fecha para mirar atrás. Al contrario -dice-, con el recuerdo del modelo de los compañeros que hemos dejado en el camino y aprendiendo del camino realizado, este día tiene que servir para reforzar la lucha hoy y mañana" y para "fortalecer el compromiso de cada uno en favor de la libertad de Euskal Herria".

En el mensaje, se apela al "modelo de los gudaris", se aboga por "seguir sin cesar en la lucha hasta que Euskal Herria sea libre" y se considera que "hacer frente firmemente a la opresión que vive Euskal Herria es un trabajo imprescindible para garantizar la supervivencia de nuestro pueblo". Asimismo, se llama al compromiso de cada persona y se indica que "construiremos la independencia de Euskal Herria con nuestros actos diarios".

Según el texto difundido, ETA quiere hacer llegar que reafirma su "compromiso" de seguir "luchando" firmemente con las armas en la mano hasta lograr la independencia y el socialismo de Euskal Herria y añade que "tenemos la sangre preparada para darla por ella" y que "lo conseguiremos".

El mensaje finaliza con "vivas" a "los soldados vascos" y a "Euskal Herria libre" y "socialista" e instando a seguir hasta lograr la independencia y el socialismo. Tras lanzar estos vivas los encapuchados lanzaron unos disparos al aire.


From here (http://modernwarstudies.net/viewtopic.php?t=60), originally from abe.es.

Translation is basically that three hooded men declared in a message that they were going to continue the fight [they claim they're speaking for ETA] until the Basque Country is independent and socialist. This would mean, of course, that Zapatero's attempted diplomacy with the group is a massive failure and that the Partido Popular was correct [yay!].

What do you think?

I think there should've been a translated version of this posted.

I visited Basque France this year on holiday. Really odd place.

And on another note, the Basques were first in line when God was handing out the x's.

I think there should've been a translated version of this posted.

There is, look below. I didn't translate word for word, but the highlights I did.

There is, look below. I didn't translate word for word, but the highlights I did.
So? You asked what we thought....

I visited Basque France this year on holiday. Really odd place.

And on another note, the Basques were first in line when God was handing out the x's.

Ironically, as a Spaniard I have never gone to the Basque Country. Admittently, I live in the United States, but in my defense I go to Spain once or twice a year. Now, my uncle who has lived there his entire life has never been to the Basque Country. I think that ETA is seriously disrupting a potential tourist economy because the region is supposedly beautiful, but to be honest, not many Spaniards from the central or southern portions that I know have been there [I mean, I'm sure there has been, but nobody I know has].

This would mean, of course, that Zapatero's attempted diplomacy with the group is a massive failure and that the Partido Popular was correct
Of course... *nods head slowly*

I think ETA are a bunch of terrorist wanna be jackasses who should all be shot. They aren't oppressed or anything and most Basque don't even want to be indepent. They need to just shut up, die, and stop causing problems for the Spanish.

Ironically, as a Spaniard I have never gone to the Basque Country. Admittently, I live in the United States, but in my defense I go to Spain once or twice a year. Now, my uncle who has lived there his entire life has never been to the Basque Country. I think that ETA is seriously disrupting a potential tourist economy because the region is supposedly beautiful, but to be honest, not many Spaniards from the central or southern portions that I know have been there [I mean, I'm sure there has been, but nobody I know has].

You're right, it is spectacular, especially so when viewed from the top of the Pyranees, but on the French side and from what I saw of the Spanish side there wasn't a shortage of tourists, everywhere was logjammed. But, as I said, I spent most time on the French side, and wasn't in the Basque heartlands, although it was very strong there.

It truly is a shame that ETA haven't gone down the road of the IRA and decided to go through political, not violent means. I doubt going back down that road will benefit the region at all.

It truly is a shame that ETA haven't gone down the road of the IRA and decided to go through political, not violent means. I doubt going back down that road will benefit the region at all.

I agree completely. If they want the Basque country to be free they need to do it through political means. I'd like to think that if a majority of Basques wanted independence that Spain would be civilized enough to let them go.

I agree completely. If they want the Basque country to be free they need to do it through political means. I'd like to think that if a majority of Basques wanted independence that Spain would be civilized enough to let them go.
but they don't

I had plans of going there next summer to visit civil war sites for upcoming books/articles/journals; I don't think ETA's renewed violence will deter me, but it would have been better to be there without ETA. :)

AFAIK, it's more or less 50/50 for independence there.

I agree completely. If they want the Basque country to be free they need to do it through political means. I'd like to think that if a majority of Basques wanted independence that Spain would be civilized enough to let them go.Hah! Tell that to the Catalans.

but they don't

Notice how I used "if" to make it a conditional statement. Anyway, that's part of the political action they'd need to take, convincing the people that independence is in their best interest.

Hah! Tell that to the Catalans.

The majority of Cataluña would rather not become independent; their entire economy would recess. Albeit, it is rather annoying to go up there and have all their signs be in Catalán. Ironically, my last name is Catalán, but I'm not from Cataluña. :)

The majority of Cataluña would rather not become independent; their entire economy would recess. Albeit, it is rather annoying to go up there and have all their signs be in Catalán. Ironically, my last name is Catalán, but I'm not from Cataluña. :)Of course, they did have a long way to go to manage to get the right to have their street signs in catalan, much less be allowed to teach that language in schools. To be honest, judging from what I've heard, the rest of Spain would probably suffer more economically from Catalan independence than the Catalans themselves.

Well yes, but proportional to the size of Cataluña the devestation would probably be more apparent there than it would be in the rest of Spain, although we would lose a lot of the industry along the coastline.

but they don't

they do and you you think the spanish state hasnt treated the Basque people appalingly badly you are on a different planet!

they do and you you think the spanish state hasnt treated the Basque people appalingly badly you are on a different planet!

Err... since 1975?

ever hear of GAL?

I think there should've been a translated version of this posted.

ETA announces that it will follow with the armed warfare until obtaining the independence of Euskadi Agencies. Bilbao Three encapuchados that said to speak in name of ETA spread yesterday a message within the framework of the Gudari Eguna, in which the terrorist organization says that "until obtaining the independence and the socialism of Euskal Herria we reaffirmed our commitment to continue grasping the arms firmly", according to they publish the newspapers Gara and Berria. The message was read yesterday late by three encapuchadas and armed people that raised the scene mounted with occasion of a tribute to the passed away militants of ETA, celebrated in Aritxulegi (Oiartzun). Both newspapers publish in euskera the message in a quartering framed in one more a ampler information on the mentioned tribute. The text of the message is informed with a photography, in which he appears one of the encapuchados ones in front of a microphone in attitude to behind read a paper and other two encapuchadas people carrying individual arms. According to the read message, "the fight is not the past, is the present and the future", it affirms when six months of the cease-fire of the terrorist organization are marked. The text indicates that the Gudari Eguna "is not for us a date to watch back. On the contrary - it says -, with the memory of the model of the companions who we have left in the way and learning of the made way, this day must serve to tomorrow reinforce the fight today and "and for" please fortifying the commitment of each one in the freedom of Euskal Herria ". In the message, it is appealed to the "model of gudaris", it is pleaded "to follow incessantly in the fight until Euskal Herria is free" and it is considered that "to do in front firmly to the oppression that lives Euskal Herria it is a work essential to guarantee the survival of our town". Also, it is called to the commitment of each person and it is indicated that "we will construct the independence of Euskal Herria with our daily acts". According to the spread text, ETA wants to make arrive that it reaffirms his "commitment" to follow "fighting" with the arms in the hand firmly until obtaining the independence and the socialism of Euskal Herria and adds that "we have the prepared blood to give it by her" and who "we will obtain it". The message finalizes with "alive" to "the Basque soldiers" and "Euskal free Herria" and "Socialist" and insisting to follow until obtaining independence and the socialism. After sending the these alive encapuchados ones they sent firings to the air.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

Easy enough. :)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

Easy enough. :)For Spanish, maybe. My personal experiences with other languages have led me to spit on Babelfish for the purpose of translating more than a word or two.

http://home.planet.nl/~jjvanka/pics/guernica.jpg

For Spanish, maybe. My personal experiences with other languages have led me to spit on Babelfish for the purpose of translating more than a word or two.

Meh, babelfish got me a B for my French GCSE, so I'm quite appreciative. Mostly I just use it as a sort of translating dictionary, and sometimes it can be quite helpful for understanding simple grammar.

but they don't

though it's fairly close. and there is typically supermajority support for even greater levels of autonomy than they have currently.

http://home.planet.nl/~jjvanka/pics/guernica.jpg

yes, what about it?

yes, what about it?

the spanish government allowed the nazis to test the blitzcrieg on a market town in the basque country.

its an example of why eta are a legitimate response

the spanish government allowed the nazis to test the blitzcrieg on a market town in the basque country.

its an example of why eta are a legitimate response

After over sixty years, the overthrow of Franco, and plenty of other factors that should have alleviated those causes? I think not.

the spanish government allowed the nazis to test the blitzcrieg on a market town in the basque country.

are you sure that wasn't an action by the bad guys in the civil war, rather than the spanish government?

are you sure that wasn't an action by the bad guys in the civil war, rather than the spanish government?

ok, it was an attack sanctioned by Franco who later became the spanish government

After over sixty years, the overthrow of Franco, and plenty of other factors that should have alleviated those causes? I think not.

yet they havent.

the GAL? police brutality? banning of political parties? the basques are shat on and they are entitled to resist. i wouldnt agree with some of the finer points of their military response though

successive spanish governments who broke their word on renegaing on an agreement to let the basques leave spain if they chose to, which they have indicated their wish to

I'd like to think that if a majority of Basques wanted independence that Spain would be civilized enough to let them go.

i don't know - i seem to recall there was a bit of a dust up because high ranking members of the military made some rather ominous comments earlier this year/the end of last year, when the generalitat was working towards passing a statute of autonomy for catalonia. basically, there were echoes of franco from some quarters.

i don't know - i seem to recall there was a bit of a dust up because high ranking members of the military made some rather ominous comments earlier this year/the end of last year, when the generalitat was working towards passing a statute of autonomy for catalonia. basically, there were echoes of franco from some quarters.

which in tune proves the Basques are right to distrust the Spanish state and who is calling the shots within

successive spanish governments who broke their word on renegaing on an agreement to let the basques leave spain if they chose to, which they have indicated their wish to

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/01/24/basque.insight/index.html

Maybe you should read it. The interview tends to contradict much of what you're claiming about who the population really fears, and just what percentage of them want out.

Of course, this interview is only valid if you think the media is unbiased:D

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/01/24/basque.insight/index.html

Maybe you should read it. The interview tends to contradict much of what you're claiming about who the population really fears, and just what percentage of them want out.

Of course, this interview is only valid if you think the media is unbiased:D

im not sure how that opinion piece counters the fact that the Spanish govt promised the basques an opt out of the democratic spanish state and reneged on it

which in tune proves the Basques are right to distrust the Spanish state and who is calling the shots within

except, of course, the statute of autonomy revision passed (got 74% or so approval in the referendum a couple months ago) and the army did not step in. in fact, the sabre-rattling general was placed under house arrest after he made the comments back in jan.

so while there are factions that might take up violent repression of a peaceful seperation, they don't appear to be completely dominating spanish politics.

Basques are awesome! Free the Basques!

except, of course, the statute of autonomy revision passed (got 74% or so approval in the referendum a couple months ago) and the army did not step in. in fact, the sabre-rattling general was placed under house arrest after he made the comments back in jan.

so while there are factions that might take up violent repression of a peaceful seperation, they don't appear to be in completely dominating spanish politics.

was he placed under arrest?

the fact is the general was confident enough that it was his place to make a threat against government policy can be taken to prove what the basques have been saying for years: former facists have positions of power in spain and fight very dirty

There is, look below. I didn't translate word for word, but the highlights I did.

Many times on these forums people have based facts and opinions on articles that dont agree with them/directly oppose them, so forgive me is I'd prefer to see a fully translated edition, or like article before I take your translation.

That aside, this is an interesting case. Historically it is nearly impossible for any government to retain an area that truly wants to be autonomous. Evidence for this can be gathered from the many nations now post-imperial. Usually more and more trouble is caused by the region until eventually the government just decides to cut its losses (Often declares moral victory, or some silly paternal "cut the apron strings" metaphor). The only exception I can think of is Russia and their little rebel sects. well, the American civil war too, but the circumstances were slightly different.. If the region and people truly wish to be independent, they are very likely to be as long as they can keep themselves on the news.

The majority of the Basques want to remain Spanish, and only a minority of Basques who want independence are militant about it. In fact, ETA has only gotten smaller over the years, AFAIK. It's gotten to the point where a lot of us just refer to the entire group as 'cuatro Etarras'.


was he placed under arrest?


Agüado was placed under house arrest, yes.


the fact is the general was confident enough that it was his place to make a threat against government policy can be taken to prove what the basques have been saying for years: former facists have positions of power in spain and fight very dirty


I think he was just crazy. The majority of the Spanish military is loyal to the democracy, or doesn't have a political opinion. This becomes more of a fact as more and more of the Spanish military is made up of immigrants [mostly South Americans], which is evident. I'm a potential candidate for joining La Brunete [maybe after graduating from the Complutense], and as far as I've seen fascist tendencies in the military are very, very small.

The attempt at a coup in 1981 proves the lack of base for a successful fascist movement.


the spanish government allowed the nazis to test the blitzcrieg on a market town in the basque country.


Um, you are apparently unaware that Guernia was bombed in 1937, during the Spanish Civil War. If you know Spanish and are truly interested in a Basque's point of view of that incident I suggest you read Pío Moa's Mitos de la Guerra Civil. It wasn't a 'test'. Guernica sat smack dab in the middle of the Nationalist advance towards the Iron Ring around Bilbao, and there is evidence suggesting there was plenty of military targets inside the town. Of course, mass bombing is very questionable, but the idea that it was a complete slaughter to be avoided is a myth.

Again I must say, if a people want to be free, let them be.

The majority of the Basques want to remain Spanish, and only a minority of Basques who want independence are militant about it. In fact, ETA has only gotten smaller over the years, AFAIK. It's gotten to the point where a lot of us just refer to the entire group as 'cuatro Etarras'.

I don't understand. If this is true, then how can Zapatero's diplomatic solution have been a "massive failure". I would qualify it as a resounding success. After all, you really can't expect that every single etarra will give up the fight, there will always be those crazy enough to go on and on, but unnable to do a single thing because there's only four of them.

So, let them talk, people realize that they're better off without the ETA than with them.

Iztatepopotla, I dont agree, and the opinon polls back it up, that the Basques arent overwhelmingly in favour of autonomy. They may not all support ETA, but like the Catalans, they want out of the kingdom, and they were promised the right to leave.

There are clearly facists still around the Spanish political elite, especially the PP. To deny this is head in the sand stuff. Even the socilaists allowed GAL to target innocent Basques to try and intimidate them.

And the fact you are defending Guernica as a legitimate military attack is sinister and shows why Basques distrust the mentality of Spanish nationalists.

Iztatepopotla, I dont agree, and the opinon polls back it up, that the Basques arent overwhelmingly in favour of autonomy.

Umm, what poles are you looking at? The majority of Basques want to stay with Spain.


They may not all support ETA, but like the Catalans, they want out of the kingdom, and they were promised the right to leave.

Err, you have your information completely wrong. The majority of Cataluña also wants to stay with Spain. In both areas the general poles are about 40/60, in favour of staying, and the seperatist movement is going down as young individuals gain age - after all, Spain is the 'oldest country in Europe'.

There are clearly facists still around the Spanish political elite, especially the PP.

Um, do you even know who's in the PP and who's not? There's a difference between fascism and conservatism, and the overwhelming majority prefer democracy over a dictatorship. I am a conservative and I prefer Zapatero to Franco, by a long shot. I think you're talking about things you don't know about.

To deny this is head in the sand stuff. Even the socilaists allowed GAL to target innocent Basques to try and intimidate them.

You mean arrest Etarras?

And the fact you are defending Guernica as a legitimate military attack is sinister and shows why Basques distrust the mentality of Spanish nationalists.

I can tell you have never read any real literature on the Spanish Civil War. I would suggest stop arguing and start reading. I already offered you a source from a Basque perspective that admits that the common conception is a misconception. I agree that the bombing raid could have been done with a bit more etiquette, but to claim that it was completely uncalled for is simply incorrect.

Iztatepopotla, I dont agree, and the opinon polls back it up, that the Basques arent overwhelmingly in favour of autonomy. They may not all support ETA, but like the Catalans, they want out of the kingdom, and they were promised the right to leave.

You may want to read again who's been saying what.

I'm commenting on the original post, and the original post only, which uses bad logic to attack Zapatero's policies.

Now, if you can read again you'll notice I didn't mention a single thing about the Basques not wanting autonomy, or to what degree. If you read the same polls, you'll see that all but the more recalcitrant groups prefer a diplomatic solution without ETA than with it.

It is true that Madrid still wants to keep a lot of power, but over the years they've allowed the autonomous regions to have more autonomy.

If you want to know my opinion, I think that trying to keep Spain as a unified central republic is the wrong path. Spain needs to be refunded as a federation or even a confederation.

And the fact you are defending Guernica as a legitimate military attack is sinister and shows why Basques distrust the mentality of Spanish nationalists.

Please quote where I'm defending the attack on Guernica.

I think he was referring to me when speaking of Guernica. Spain has already been called a Country of Countries. Comunidades Autonomas inside Spain almost have complete autonomy. The only thing they now share in common with Madrid is the fact that ultimately the president of the state is their president and they share a common military. Otherwise, the laws are jurisdiction of the autonomous region, not Madrid. The problem of the federation is that the majority of Spaniards, even inside Cataluña and El País Vasco don't want to be independent, and the number of those who do is getting smaller.

Otherwise, the laws are jurisdiction of the autonomous region, not Madrid. The problem of the federation is that the majority of Spaniards, even inside Cataluña and El País Vasco don't want to be independent, and the number of those who do is getting smaller.

I think just making it a formality (because in essence Spain acts as a federation) would just be the icing on the cake and finally Spain can move on to other things. Hopefully, you see how Quebec is part of a federation but still some people would like to be completely independent, as long as they don't have to pay for it.

the spanish government allowed the nazis to test the blitzcrieg on a market town in the basque country.
even if that is true, your point......

its an example of why eta are a legitimate response
Bullshit. They aren't oppressed or brutalized in the same way as say the Palestinians. The Spanish government treats them fairly and they are nothing but a bunch of murderers plain and simple. There is NO excuse for them to kill innocent Spanish and French people.

From here (http://modernwarstudies.net/viewtopic.php?t=60), originally from abe.es.

Translation is basically that three hooded men declared in a message that they were going to continue the fight [they claim they're speaking for ETA] until the Basque Country is independent and socialist. This would mean, of course, that Zapatero's attempted diplomacy with the group is a massive failure and that the Partido Popular was correct [yay!].

What do you think?

And here I opened this wondering why you were on about the burakumin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin)... Heh.

So much for the ceasefire...

The majority of the Basques want to remain Spanish, and only a minority of Basques who want independence are militant about it.

but wasn't there about 50-50 support for the plan ibarretxe? and higher support (60 to 70%) on more general questions of greater autonomy and self-determination?

even if that is true, your point......


Bullshit. They aren't oppressed or brutalized in the same way as say the Palestinians. The Spanish government treats them fairly and they are nothing but a bunch of murderers plain and simple. There is NO excuse for them to kill innocent Spanish and French people.

thats an astonishing contradiction within one post.

thousands killed as the basques were used to test aeral warfare and they werent 'brutalised'?


to the macabees, if you think the GAL were set up to arrest ETA men there is no point discussing these matters with you as you are clearly not dealing in reality.

to deny the majority of indigenous basques and catalans want more freedom is total bullshit.

So I'm justified to randomly kill people because 70 years ago, some other people killed my conationals? That's weird. :rolleyes:

So I'm justified to randomly kill people because 70 years ago, some other people killed my conationals? That's weird. :rolleyes:

im not saying that. im saying that that was one of the root causes of the contemporary struggle for basque independence and still today certain spaniards will defend the firebombing of a market town by the nazis to test the new concept of blitzkrieg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica). this was the first time the phrase 'weapons of mass destruction' was used. and that the gang of mercenary thugs the spanish government established to murder innocents was there to 'arrest' eta men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_Antiterroristas_de_Liberaci%C3%B3n). and continious denial that they have any justification for the struggle. compare and contrast to the british approach to the IRA.

that arrogant and patronising attitude to the basque (and catalans) sums up why the basques feel justified in distrusting elements of the spanish state that have not moved as far beyond, or confronted their facist past, for comfort. remember the blatant wall of lies over the madrid bombings?

im not saying that.
eta are a legitimate response
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

I dont condone some of their tactics, but Eta were birthed in a just struggle against European Fascism in the 1930's and continued opression in the 'democratic' state that emerged. They are a legitimate resonse to the blitzkrieg, Fascism, death squads, broken promised in Madrid and police brutality.

Feel free to argue the points raised...

I dont condone some of their tactics, but Eta were birthed in a just struggle against European Fascism in the 1930's and continued opression in the 'democratic' state that emerged. They are a legitimate resonse to the blitzkrieg, Fascism, death squads, broken promised in Madrid and police brutality.

Feel free to argue the points raised...
The bolded parts are history. You can't justify killing people for that.
You'll have to come up with some evidence, if you want me to believe the part about "police brutality" (specifically directed against Basques, remember).
And governments break their promisses every day. Normal people, however, don't start bombing innocents because of that.

-------------------

Are you Basque yourself? I doubt it. You know, there was this American on Wikipedia who advocated the creation of a "Moldovan Language" Wikipedia. I guess you don't know a lot about the issue, but the Moldovan section would have differed from the Romanian one in the following respects: the use of "î" instead of "â" in certain cases (please note that these letters actually describe the same sound, so it's just an orthography difference); and the spelling of "sunt" in Romanian as "sînt" in "Moldovan". He was the only one to ask for a separate Moldovan section. Not one Moldovan raised the issue or even came forward to support him. You remind me of him. Take this as you wish.

The bolded parts are history. You can't justify killing people for that.
You'll have to come up with some evidence, if you want me to believe the part about "police brutality" (specifically directed against Basques, remember).
And governments break their promisses every day. Normal people, however, don't start bombing innocents because of that.

-------------------

Are you Basque yourself? I doubt it. You know, there was this American on Wikipedia who advocated the creation of a "Moldovan Language" Wikipedia. I guess you don't know a lot about the issue, but the Moldovan section would have differed from the Romanian one in the following respects: the use of "î" instead of "â" in certain cases (please note that these letters actually describe the same sound, so it's just an orthography difference); and the spelling of "sunt" in Romanian as "sînt" in "Moldovan". He was the only one to ask for a separate Moldovan section. Not one Moldovan raised the issue or even came forward to support him. You remind me of him. Take this as you wish.

I have family connections to the Basque country. Not that it matters, Im not allowed an opinion because Im not a local? Do you expand that to all the other threads on this site re global affairs? I mean are you seriously giving out that I contributed to a topical thread on a current affairs forum? :rolleyes: What has the Moldovan reference got to do with anything?

In relation to your specific questions, the Spanish state has to come to terms with its role in the GAL and remove those who were involved from their current roles before it can be consigned to history.

There are well documented allegations of police brutality and torture, especially against the Guardia Civil. Wiki article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA#Government_repression) and Amnesty report on torture by the Spanish state (http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/eur41.htm).

I dont condone some of their tactics, but Eta were birthed in a just struggle against European Fascism in the 1930's and continued opression in the 'democratic' state that emerged. They are a legitimate resonse to the blitzkrieg, Fascism, death squads, broken promised in Madrid and police brutality.

Feel free to argue the points raised...

ETA WERE a legitimate response to the fascism of Francesco Franco. But since 1975 the Spanish state has only acted civilly towards its minorities. ETA are like the IRA, having long forgot their political purpose they seek to maintain a violent status quo through crime and murder in order to maintain their own sadistic power.

ETA WERE a legitimate response to the fascism of Francesco Franco. But since 1975 the Spanish state has only acted civilly towards its minorities. ETA are like the IRA, having long forgot their political purpose they seek to maintain a violent status quo through crime and murder in order to maintain their own sadistic power.

If death squads, torture and banning political parties (all since Spain became democratic btw) are your idea of 'acting civily' id hate to think what your idea of treating them badly is.... :rolleyes: :confused:

Guernica was state terror against the Basque civilian population. PP blamed ETA for the Madrid attacks, deliberately and probably to take advantage of the anti-Basque sentiments in Spain.

Note: On May 12, 1999, the New York Times reported that, after sixty-one years, in a declaration adopted on April 24, 1999, the German Parliament formally apologized to the citizens of Guernica for the role the Condor Legion played in bombing the town. The German government also agreed to change the names of some German military barracks named after members of the Condor Legion. By contrast, no formal apology to the city has ever been offered by the Spanish government for whatever role it may have played in the bombing. Source: http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/guernica/glevel_1/1_bombing.html

The ETA became illegitimate after Franco's regime. Breaking with Spain wouldn't hurt them, there are plenty of nations to trade with. The Basque country is pretty wealthy too.

Breaking with Spain wouldn't hurt them, there are plenty of nations to trade with. The Basque country is pretty wealthy too.

That's what I thought. I'm always puzzled when people claim that nations would be economically damaged by a seperation. If they were both in the European Union would it really make that much of a difference?

thats an astonishing contradiction within one post.

thousands killed as the basques were used to test aeral warfare and they werent 'brutalised'?


to the macabees, if you think the GAL were set up to arrest ETA men there is no point discussing these matters with you as you are clearly not dealing in reality.

to deny the majority of indigenous basques and catalans want more freedom is total bullshit.
The Basques need to accept they are part of Spain and be quiet.

The Basques need to accept they are part of Spain and be quiet.

why?

why?

Because the current political boundaries are the only legitimate ones. Obviously. God wants the Basques to be Spanish or something like that.

Because the current political boundaries are the only legitimate ones. Obviously. God wants the Basques to be Spanish or something like that.

No.

As a militant of the Basque's Partido Nacionalista Vasco. (who is also a separatist), I despise the ETA not in the account of being of being separatist, but in the account of being a terrorist, communist party.

The separatist people that wants to achieve said end through pacific, political means, are comprised in the PNV. The ETA is for the remaining savages.

No.

As a militant of the Basque's Partido Nacionalista Vasco. (who is also a separatist), I despise the ETA not in the account of being of being separatist, but in the account of being a terrorist, communist party.

The separatist people that wants to achieve said end through pacific, political means, are comprised in the PNV. The ETA is for the remaining savages.

I was being more than a bit sarcastic.

why?

Because they are. Plus they wouldn't sustain themselves if they broke away and became commis. It would cause more problems than its worth.

Because they are. Plus they wouldn't sustain themselves if they broke away and became commis. It would cause more problems than its worth.

the oldest known ethnic group in europe deserve a little bit more than that little piece of ignorance. the basque nation existed thousands of years before the spanish state

the oldest known ethnic group in europe deserve a little bit more than that little piece of ignorance. the basque nation existed thousands of years before the spanish state

congrats, really. Fact remains it would be a bad idea for them to break away.

congrats, really. Fact remains it would be a bad idea for them to break away.

even in the context of EU membership? an industrial port region with huge tourist numbers?

think before you type.

even in the context of EU membership? an industrial port region with huge tourist numbers?

think before you type.

Why should they get into the EU?

The Basques need to accept they are part of Spain and be quiet.

They accept it, and they don't totally dislike the idea either, but that doesn't meant that they have to shut up and do whatever Madrid tells them to do.

Why should they get into the EU?

they already are...

there are a number of regions in europe that have autonomy movements of various strengths and the EU have made it clear they would be fasttracked in.

Because they are.

is/ought

the mere fact that something is the case is no argument either way for whether it should be so.

Plus they wouldn't sustain themselves if they broke away and became commis. It would cause more problems than its worth.

that sounds like a practical consideration that might need to be taken into account. but if that claim were false, would you argue that it would then be an argument in favor of them breaking off?