NationStates Jolt Archive

Just two nights ago I met another closet creationist. On hearing that I did biology, she challenged "so do you believe that we came from chimpanzees 6 000 years ago?"

I say "6 000 years?" and she went "Ok, 10 000 years ago."

So I replied (as nonchalantly as possible) "we diverged from our last common ancestor with chimpanzees about 6-7 million years ago!"

The conversation wasn't going anywhere, but it made me think.

I don't think it a coincidence that many organized religions think of God as a Sky God. For much of human history people have believed that big things must come from bigger things.

Humans have art, poetry, morality and religion! How could we possibly be related to other animals? We must be a special creation!

Then science came along and discovered many strange facts about things big and small. It wasn't divine will or evil spirits or unbalanced humors that made people sick.

It was all those tiny bugs that you can't even see! Just dry them out in the sun and they fall apart. But for some very virulent strains, just a tiny amount can drop a man. Or ten million people.

What about a beautiful, massive rainbow crafted using light on the sky? A diffraction effect caused by billions of tiny raindrops.

Or a huge mountain towering above the clouds? A few centimetres gained per century, over millions of years can turn a plain into a mountain range.

The list of tiny but important things go on. Scientists can find them because they have never assumed that important things must look big and important. Many other people, such as artists (http://freshbrainz.blogspot.com/2006/09/schm-arty-farty.html), are still struggling with this concept.

And this attitude is crucial, because we have harnessed so much benefit from so many tiny things. To assume that God must look like a white human male, appear old and wise, be omni-whatever and must be larger than the physical universe is to deeply misunderstand the true power of small things that God is showing us everyday.

We have been looking for God in the wrong places.

Well, there is Lucy. 3.2 million years ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060920/sc_afp/ethiopiascience_060920143923;_ylt=AjI.yLPQfGhoJBkdWi7dZ7YTO7gF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5bGVna3NhBHNlYwNzc3JlbA--

Boy did you say a mouthfull.

Meh, I never liked the whole "big guy in the sky" idea about god. This is just idle speculation but I think god would be an omnipresent, omnipotent, and transcendent force. One that operates without space or time.

Meh, I never liked the whole "big guy in the sky" idea about god. This is just idle speculation but I think god would be an omnipresent, omnipotent, and transcendent force. One that operates without space or time.
The whole "big guy in the sky" idea is primarily observed by cartoonists and artists who are confronted with the challenge of how, exactly, does one sketch an omnipresent, world-shaping entity. Its a matter of personification becoming so wide-spread that a few start taking it literally.

It seems to me that "God" by definition must be beyound the true comprehension of those who are created by God. It seems no more possible for the baby in the womb to understand the world that it will soon be living in than it is possible for the creatures to understand the Creator.

It seems to me that "God" by definition must be beyound the true comprehension of those who are created by God. It seems no more possible for the baby in the womb to understand the world that it will soon be living in than it is possible for the creatures to understand the Creator.

So you're saying you don't get your mum? Yeah it happens. :D

It also comes from the bit where the Bible says that humans were made in God's image, although I can't be troubled just yet to find a Bible and tell you where it is. But I'm guessing Genesis.

Meh, I never liked the whole "big guy in the sky" idea about god. This is just idle speculation but I think god would be an omnipresent, omnipotent, and transcendent force. One that operates without space or time.

I like neither. It's entirely possible that God is a very tiny, ultra-powerful being who doesn't need to be omni-anything in order to achieve everything.

Just as analogy think of the internet itself. It almost appears to cover the entire Earth, but the servers and other machines that run it occupy a nearly infinitesimal area of our planet.

But somehow this image hasn't found favour with most people, because people tend to look down on tiny things.

I remember a wise biologist once said: "We believe that there was once the Age of Insects, then Fish, Amphibians, Reptiles and then Mammals. But it has always been the Age of Bacteria."

Meh, I never liked the whole "big guy in the sky" idea about god. This is just idle speculation but I think god would be an omnipresent, omnipotent, and transcendent force. One that operates without space or time.
You know, there actually is one omnipresent and omnipotent entity.
One and only one, but we can be absolutely sure about the fact it exists.

It is the Universe.

Well, you can say something like "I meant...", but it doesn't change a bit. The Universe fits this definition of God so absolutely that there is no space for another similar entity. An omnipresent and omnipotent entity simply has no other choice rather than to be the universe.


So this is the solution to the question "Is there God?". Yes, there is, but in fact it doesn't mean anything, because we knew it all along.

I'm completely serious. Just think a bit about this concept, and you will get it - omnipresence and omnipotence mean being everything, and everything is the universe.

You know, there actually is one omnipresent and omnipotent entity.
One and only one, but we can be absolutely sure about the fact it exists.

It is the Universe.

Well, you can say something like "I meant...", but it doesn't change a bit. The Universe fits this definition of God so absolutely that there is no space for another similar entity. An omnipresent and omnipotent entity simply has no other choice rather than to be the universe.


So this is the solution to the question "Is there God?". Yes, there is, but in fact it doesn't mean anything, because we knew it all along.

I'm completely serious. Just think a bit about this concept, and you will get it - omnipresence and omnipotence mean being everything, and everything is the universe.

Is the universe a force? Does the universe have self-consciousness? Does the universe have a will? in order for the universe to be omnipotent, it must be potent, therefore it must have a consciousness and a will.

Dr. Hubble I believe found out that the universe expands and contracts(red shift/blue shift) Doesn't that mean that the universe is in fact finite? and doesn't that mean that the universe is not omnipresent?

Dr. Hubble I believe found out that the universe expands and contracts(red shift/blue shift) Doesn't that mean that the universe is in fact finite? and doesn't that mean that the universe is not omnipresent?
No. There is nothing beyond the universe; if there would be, it would also belong to the universe, because it by definition includes everything. Well, more idealistic people can use the term "multiverse" instead. It doesn't change a thing.

Is the universe a force? Does the universe have self-consciousness? Does the universe have a will?
...And these are the real questions. The basic concept of God - omnipresence and omnipotience - is equal to the universe, and there can not be two omnipotent entities. Therefore God (in this concept) == Universe, and it is only the extension of its definition; or, more specifically, assertion that the universe has certain properties.

So, if we are speaking not about a guy in the sky, the question should be not "Is there God?", but rather, since it is the same, "Does the universe have the properties we attach to it?".
Specifically, whether it has self-consciousness, will, and so on.

It also comes from the bit where the Bible says that humans were made in God's image, although I can't be troubled just yet to find a Bible and tell you where it is. But I'm guessing Genesis.

I have read in several articles that the old testament refers to god as being more than one being. Will have to hunt that down and post it. Also when Moses recieved the ten commandments that it was more than one being giving him the info.

Edit: "Then God (ELOHIM) said, 'Let Us make man in Our image.'" (Genesis 1:26) emphasis on "Our"

So we should be looking for God in emergent properties?

i stop looking when i found out all the groups were full of bull shit.
one group tells you you cant do this but the next say you can
i just think there is one god who goes by a lot of names and keep out of the shit that goes with bering in those groups