NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

Welcome to NS.

I will admit to disliking bigots, homophobes, religious fundamentalists, mindless nationalists, fascists, warmongers, imperialists, general authoritarians, and likeminded people (that is, most conservatives of the non-libertarian variety.)

What I do not understand is the problem with that sentiment.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

...

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

I think alot of people here are prone to knee-jerk reactions. It isn't just percievedly liberals or leftists that are keen to respond in the same way every time a topic comes up without necessarily looking to much into what the person is saying, though maybe it's more noticeable because there's alot of us on this forum. Yes, people are often dismissed or not not taken seruiously if what they say is easily slotted into any well-worn category and lacks originality, but interesting points will usually warrant invested responses.

I will admit to disliking bigots, homophobes, religious fundamentalists, mindless nationalists, fascists, warmongers, imperialists, general authoritarians, and likeminded people (that is, most conservatives of the non-libertarian variety.)

What I do not understand is the problem with that sentiment.

You automatically assume I'm talking about them? No. I don't like them either, but I am talking about more moderate, soft-spoken religious/right-wingers.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

Wow. Someone isn't looking at the other end of the spectrum. And as for blowing things way out of proportion, you need to read your thread out loud to yourself. What I'm sick of is when people don't realise that there are bad things on both sides and everyone is responsible.

Asshat.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot.

I remember you.

Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple.

I'm not quite certain that's true. I generally don't care to involve myself in threads about religion, because frankly, they bore me, but I follow the philosophy of 'to each their own'. However, to cite one example, whenever someone goes on a homophobic rant and attempts to use their religious beliefs as justification...I do get a bit irritated.

Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed.

Depends what the comment is. I have a right to disagree.

What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

Oh please, I barely go a day without being bashed for what I believe in in some form or another, and I have been threatened with physical violence in person once before. Why does the right-wing have so much hate?

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

How do you expect to be "bashed"?

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart.

Because we disagree with the validity of the point?

I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

And I get treated like total scum by many religious people. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

But we are allowed to disagree with the practices and beliefs of certain religions if we so desire, no?

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng.

Oh please. I'm sure many people are guilty of the same with regards to my beliefs, and those of any other person.

Ooooh sonny jim, you should'a been 'ere back in th' day. 2004 it was, and NS General was a seething cauldron of HIPPIES and COMMUNISTS and...and...and PEOPLE WHO DISAGREED WITH ME. I think Im one of the four or so 'old' conservatives, counting Eut, 'cause hes an honourary old timer, for being so old ;)
Its funny...NSG has gotten better, and the roleplay forums have gone to hell. The cosmic forum scale balances.

Anyway, trust me, back in 2003 if you so much as THOUGHT 'I like George Bush' on this forum somebody would post a thread saying you were wrong.

Ooooh sonny jim, you should'a been 'ere back in th' day. 2004 it was, and NS General was a seething cauldron of HIPPIES and COMMUNISTS and...and...and PEOPLE WHO DISAGREED WITH ME. I think Im one of the four or so 'old' conservatives, counting Eut, 'cause hes an honourary old timer, for being so old ;)
Its funny...NSG has gotten better, and the roleplay forums have gone to hell. The cosmic forum scale balances.

Anyway, trust me, back in 2003 if you so much as THOUGHT 'I like George Bush' on this forum somebody would post a thread saying you were wrong.This is true - this forum has gained more conservative and religious voices in the last year or so. Much more balanced hereabouts than it was once.
We used to have a bunch of lefties, some commies, three conservatives, some plain old scary people, and your token nazi or two.

This is true - this forum has gained more conservative and religious voices in the last year or so. Much more balanced hereabouts than it was once.
We used to have a bunch of lefties, some commies, three conservatives, some plain old scary people, and your token nazi or two.

Dont forget TRA/MKULTRA/all his other accounts. Nobody was quite sure WHAT he was.

Dont forget TRA/MKULTRA/all his other accounts. Nobody was quite sure WHAT he was.
Batshit crazy conspiracist would be one way to classify him.

"bush's ancestors tipped the earth on its axis using an enormous laser"

aaahhhhhhhh the memories. (anyone have the real quote?)

The question is...was he really crazy? Was he really liberal?
Most of the pretend crazies give up after one post, but I wonder if he was? :P

Anyway...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/search.php?searchid=598267

Religion sure has done alot to recieve the wrath of the people. It's only normal that something that has killed millions of people is to look at and be despised. Religion is the source of discrimination and fanatics, Religion has been the greatest killing machine ever, and the numbers constantly rise.

Religion has kept away science, people have gotten killed for saying other things than "God is almighty", and people still have to suffer for believing in other things than an almighty god.
Don't start saying WE are the bashers now. Not after all the things religion has and is still doing to US.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

Bro... Are we talking about the same people? Do you see anyone harrass Smunkee or Zilam without being targeted by most of the forum for their actions? No. People debate with them, but it rarely develops into "bashing". Wanna know why? Because we respect people's beliefs just fine, so long as they respect ours. It's only when we get fundies in here ranting about evil homos and corrupt atheist-pigs that we really bash all that much.

If by bash you mean not agree... Well, IMO, that's your problem. I'm not contstrained to agree with you, or even to silence myself to allow you to be comfortable.

As to why atheists have so much hate... Imagine that you belong to the most hated minority in the US. Imagine that your way of life and beleifs were constantly under attack by people coming from other sects, and that they, in turn, said that you fighting to maintain a live and let live world where both groups could worship without bothering one another were actually persecuting you. Imagine a world in which you acknowledged your faith, and a girl replied. "No! You can't be!"

That world is reality for Atheists dwelling in America.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

Once again, blatantly false. Yes, we do go on the attack against far-righties who come here spewing lies, bias, and twisted fact. We do not, however, go after them because of their politics, but rather becase, for the most part, they are presenting falacious arguements or are lying outright. We do seem to have a dearth of well-reasoned righties, but I put that down to the bias of the forum. We probably draw in the more reactionary types because of our excessive number of radicals.

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

I agree entirely. However, it is not unreasonable for people who use inductive reasoning to assume that Religion is at fault. This is a case of two seperate, but equal, theories that both deserve respect.


You automatically assume I'm talking about them? No. I don't like them either, but I am talking about more moderate, soft-spoken religious/right-wingers.

Do the two go together? The Christian Religious Right is one of the two hard-authoritarian branches of the Republican party. I rarely see people who are Republican, Religious, and given to putting the two together, who are moderates. That isn't to say that one cannot be a Religious Moderate, but it is to say that normally the two are seperate entities that do not stem from one another.

Welcome to NS General.

If you dont like people bashing you for what you believe, I suggest you never share another opinion, ever again.

No matter what your into, or wich side of the spectrum you are on, theres always someone with a dissenting opinion.
You can either accept the fact that not everyone shares your views, or you can wonder why anyone who doesnt, "has so much hate".

Let me address your religion question, as I tend to butt heads with some of the more fundie types here.

Its not religion I have a problem with, its those who follow it.
As someone who does not follow any religion, the only representatives any religion has, is its followers.

Thus, a religion IS its followers, since they are the example of what that religion teaches.
So..if a group of Christians burn down an abortion center, after killing the doctor who ran it, and justify themselves with religion, what does that say about the religion they profess?

Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck, not becuase Christ sucked.


One more thing...

To assume that any atheist/liberal is "full of hate" tells me a lot about you.
You obviously think this way becuase they disagree with you.

Do you always feel such things about those who disagree with you?

Whos hating now?

Whos hating now?

Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck, not becuase Christ sucked.

4 lines. 4 lines seperate these quotes.

Yeah, you don't hate. Not at all. :roll:

4 lines. 4 lines seperate these quotes.

Yeah, you don't hate. Not at all. :roll:



Did you miss the above sentence where I freely admitted this?

I didnt think I was mincing words.

I dont hate Christ, or his religion......its his followers that suck.

Batshit crazy conspiracist would be one way to classify him.

"bush's ancestors tipped the earth on its axis using an enormous laser"

aaahhhhhhhh the memories. (anyone have the real quote?)

I remember when he posted that. Unfortunately, I can never find it. I'm sure it's somewhere in the forum, though.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

So, what's your solution? Everyone who is not an american or a religious nut just piss off to another forum? Or everyone pretending to agree with the fundamentalist crusaders and the americans?

So, what's your solution? Everyone who is not an american or a religious nut just piss off to another forum? Or everyone pretending to agree with the fundamentalist crusaders and the americans?

If they did that this forum'd be dead.
Some people like to debate. You won't find these people here though. The people here like to shout, whine and bitch and generally scream whatever dogma they follow at each other and that's why we love it!

Trilby63;11719918']If they did that this forum'd be dead.
Some people like to debate. You won't find these people here though. The people here like to shout, whine and bitch and generally scream whatever dogma they follow at each other and that's why we love it!

:) Yup.

Well, if you're sick of it, why bother posting that fact? Just leave. Nobody has ever forced you to read anything here.

Basically you're asking for this forum to be a forum only for right-wingers, without any dissent or debate. I don't think wanting enlightened debate over certain issues equates to being "so full of hate."

There are people who bash unreasonably, yes, but generally they're the low post-count people who get bored and leave after expressing the same old opinions as their like-minded brethren.

You automatically assume I'm talking about them? No. I don't like them either, but I am talking about more moderate, soft-spoken religious/right-wingers.
Uh, no.

Smunkeeville, for example, is a "moderate, soft-spoken religious conservative" - and I don't exactly see anyone bashing her. I might not agree with her on most things religious and political, but she's also not somebody who wants to press her views onto other people.

Alas, this is decidedly NOT the usual description of religious/political conservatives posting here.

Uh, no.

Smunkeeville, for example, is a "moderate, soft-spoken religious conservative" - and I don't exactly see anyone bashing her. I might not agree with her on most things religious and political, but she's also not somebody who wants to press her views onto other people.

Alas, this is decidedly NOT the usual description of religious/political conservatives posting here.

thanks ;)

to be fair though I do get quite a bit of "you are stupid because you are religous" and "religious people are bad because I say they are" but also to be double fair, that's not usually from anyone with a post count of more than like 10, so I ignore them, I figure they will learn soon enough that the world isn't black and white, and us against them.

thanks ;)

to be fair though I do get quite a bit of "you are stupid because you are religous" and "religious people are bad because I say they are" but also to be double fair, that's not usually from anyone with a post count of more than like 10, so I ignore them, I figure they will learn soon enough that the world isn't black and white, and us against them.
That was quick. Do you have a sensor that tells you when someone talks about you? :eek: :p *note to self: never write anything bad about Smunkee behind her back* :p

That was quick. Do you have a sensor that tells you when someone talks about you? :eek: :p *note to self: never write anything bad about Smunkee behind her back* :p

I am trying to "de-stress" you should read about the bubble gum in my 5 year old's hair in the "what did you learn today?" thread.

I am trying to "de-stress" you should read about the bubble gum in my 5 year old's hair in the "what did you learn today?" thread.
Lol. >.<

Welcome to NS.

He needs one of these: :fluffle:

darlin', this is the net. people use their annonimity to bash, troll, and just be contrary. if you can't take it, you can't be online.

you can put up the thread "pie is good" and get bashed for liking apple pie more than pecan pie. its what people DO.

you judge the quality of a thread not by an absense of stupid bashing posts but by the number of thoughtful well-written posts going back and forth inbetween the crappy ones.

yes the "religious people are morons" posts are annoying. sometimes because they are trolling and sometimes because they are people who have had bad experiences with religion that they are bad at expressing. which it is is obvious soon enough. you ignore the trolls and try to engage the confused. (or leave the thread entirely which is always a good move)

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it. I hate. I freely admit it. I don't hate conservatives, they're trying to do the right thing most times, we just disagree what the right thing is sometimes. I do hate religion. How can I not hate a belief based on blind faith that divides people from each other and in some cases seeks to restrict the teaching of science and the practice of medicine? I think the human race would be much better off without religion.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in. Whatever floats your boat.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why? I can't say. I don't think I bash stuff apart or treat people like scum.

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars. See my first response. Religion doesn't have to make war to hold the progress of the human race back.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

My problem isn't with religious or political stances. My problem is with stupidity and ignorance - in all parts of the politico-religious spectrum. I just happen to find that most vocal, fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Moslems etc. tend to also be the most ignorant and ill-informed. I also find that most extremists, whether liberal or conservative tend to argue from emotion rather than reason. If that's bashing, deal with it.

I will admit to disliking bigots, homophobes, religious fundamentalists, mindless nationalists, fascists, warmongers, imperialists, general authoritarians, and likeminded people (that is, most conservatives of the non-libertarian variety.)

What I do not understand is the problem with that sentiment.

That statement indicates you are what you hate, a prejudice, close-minded, bigot.

That statement indicates you are what you hate, a prejudice, close-minded, bigot.

Does it? How?

I will admit to disliking bigots, homophobes, religious fundamentalists, mindless nationalists, fascists, warmongers, imperialists, general authoritarians, and likeminded people (that is, most conservatives of the non-libertarian variety.)

What I do not understand is the problem with that sentiment.

Quick question. How do you feel about Muslims?

That statement indicates you are what you hate, a prejudice, close-minded, bigot.

No, it indicates an inability to tolerate the intolerant - something which I am altogether familiar with.

That statement indicates you are what you hate, a prejudice, close-minded, bigot.

Since when did 'hate' = 'dislike'?

Does it? How?

It doesn't. It's just a convenient excuse some use to defend their own biases and bigotry. "You can't hate me for being a hater because that makes you a hater yourself" as though using the logic of a four-year old somehow makes one wise.

Quick question. How do you feel about Muslims?

I like the ones I know, with one exception. There was this woman I went to grad school with named Zalfa--she was a bitch. But I don't think it was the Muslim that made her a bitch. She'd have been a bitch in any religion.

It doesn't. It's just a convenient excuse some use to defend their own biases and bigotry. "You can't hate me for being a hater because that makes you a hater yourself" as though using the logic of a four-year old somehow makes one wise.

I think there's a fine line here. You do find people who are what they hate, for instance the gay-basher who knows that he/she really is gay. But most people, I think, hate a mind set without necessarily hating the person who has that mind-set.

Regrettably the OP has a point; I have seen more moderate religious centre-right conservatives mocked for their beliefs here than any other group, and dismissed as irrational bigots even if this isn't so. Right-wingers of my own kind (libertarians) tend to have an easier time here. Personally, I have very little affection for neoconservatives, fascists, bigots, nationalists and the like, just as I have little affection for most communists etc. However, simply dismissing people as illogical due to their views and not listening to what they have to say is a blatant display of intolerance and closemindedness in and of itself. So unless you are willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, I would recommend to most out there not to claim the moral high ground. My recommendation is to ignore anyone too close-minded to hear you out. They are not worthy of your notice. Religophobia is simply the trend du jour.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.
As a left-wing Christian I think I can answer your questions.

It's because of Bush. His destructive and evil policies over the past six years have given most people a lot of reason to hate him and his supporters.

Many atheists also see Christians supporting Bush, and they ignorantly think that most Christians are like that. Together with the vicious sector of the pro-life movement and the anti-gay movement, the public image of Christians in America is not good. Just as the public image of Middle-Eastern Islam is pretty bad these days.

I'm rather openly religious and not treated like scum at all. It must be the politics. It must be the hypocrisy displayed by most right-wing Christians.

You automatically assume I'm talking about them? No. I don't like them either, but I am talking about more moderate, soft-spoken religious/right-wingers.
Why do you equate religious people with right-wingers?

Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck, not becuase Christ sucked.

This is so illogical. Christianity does not suck, because most Christians do not suck.

Quick question. How do you feel about Muslims?
He didn't say he disliked all religious people, just the fundamentalists.

I'm rather openly religious and not treated like scum at all. It must be the politics. It must be the hypocrisy displayed by most right-wing Christians.
Most of these fundamentalist Christians are Buchananites, adherents of Pat Buchanan's brand of conservatism (or social nationalism, to avoid stigmatising him). Essentially a mixture of left-wing economic policies and right-wing social policies. I am not sure if these Christians can be called right-wing; perhaps authoritarian is a better word - maybe Far Right fascists even. Bush is more right-wing economically, given his business bias, and this is why I think many fundies are so disillusioned in him - that, and his total failure in almost everything he has attempted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan They say this man is a paleoconservative (a movement I have respect for), but I disagree - he has paleoconservative aspects to him, but he is a variation of a nationalist, perhaps even a fascist.

This is so illogical. Christianity does not suck, because most Christians do not suck.

Fallacy of composition right there, babe.

He didn't say he disliked all religious people, just the fundamentalists.

That wasn't really my point. You could easily replace "most Conservatives" with "most Muslims" and toss up some links demonstrating people attesting to the superiority of Islamic beliefs, the persecution and murder of homosexuals, militant fundementalists, Turkmenistan and Palestine as explamples of nationalism, a historically documented and ongoing fascination with fascism and Adolf Hitler, current Jihads, the Gulf War, and oppressive Muslim theocracies. Even with all of that, you STILL couldn't even come close to claiming these things have ANYTHING to do with what "most Muslims" feel. The fact that he is claiming this about such a vague and diverse group like "Conservatives" is bloody absurd.

Not only that, but his condemnation of everyone he merely PERCEIVES as falling under those distinctions (regardless of whether or not it’s true) is bigoted in the extreme.

Fallacy of composition right there, babe.I find it highly unlikely that most christians are equally disagreeable as the loud minority.

I think there's a fine line here. You do find people who are what they hate, for instance the gay-basher who knows that he/she really is gay. But most people, I think, hate a mind set without necessarily hating the person who has that mind-set.

That's not really what I'm talking about, though. What Celtlund said is the same thing that lots of intolerant people say in order to try to catch liberals in a paradox. The problem is that those people are claiming that intolerance and hatred are the same thing, and they aren't. I'm tolerant of the beliefs of the Ku Klux Klan in that I believe they have the right to hold them, but I still find those beliefs to be morally repugnant and I hate them. Celtlund's reasoning would put me on the same level as the Klan, simply because I hate their beliefs. That's stupid, and I make no bones about it.

That wasn't really my point. You could easily replace "most Conservatives" with "most Muslims" and toss up some links demonstrating people attesting to the superiority of Islamic beliefs, the persecution and murder of homosexuals, militant fundementalists, Turkmenistan and Palestine as explamples of nationalism, a historically documented and ongoing fascination with fascism and Adolf Hitler, current Jihads, the Gulf War, and oppressive Muslim theocracies.
You can compare Muslims to Christians, but not to conservatives.

Islam is a religion, conservatism is a political ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan They say this man is a paleoconservative (a movement I have respect for), but I disagree - he has paleoconservative aspects to him, but he is a variation of a nationalist, perhaps even a fascist.
Why respect paleoconservatism? It's redundant by definition.

Regrettably the OP has a point; I have seen more moderate religious centre-right conservatives mocked for their beliefs here than any other group, and dismissed as irrational bigots even if this isn't so. Right-wingers of my own kind (libertarians) tend to have an easier time here. Personally, I have very little affection for neoconservatives, fascists, bigots, nationalists and the like, just as I have little affection for most communists etc. However, simply dismissing people as illogical due to their views and not listening to what they have to say is a blatant display of intolerance and closemindedness in and of itself. So unless you are willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, I would recommend to most out there not to claim the moral high ground. My recommendation is to ignore anyone too close-minded to hear you out. They are not worthy of your notice. Religophobia is simply the trend du jour.

Good post. I very much agree with you. :)

Now for a few thoughts of my own.

It's a funny thing. It doesn't happen alot, perhaps because I'm not sufficiently conservative or into harping about my religion, but there have been occasions where I have had the joy of dealing with people assuming that just because I disagree with modern liberal thought on a particular point, I must be a filthy religious conservative OMG NOEZ!!!11 It's always annoying, and certainly unfair, considering that I'm not conservative politically and don't push my religion on folks.

That said, I've seen liberals get the same sort of treatment from conservatives on this forum. Granted, on the whole there is somewhat less of it happening to liberals just due to forum demographics, but it's hardly just the conservative religious folks that have to put up with that shit, and it's just as unfair when it's done to liberals as conservatives.

The solution, IMO, isn't to walk away from the forum, but to walk into it, and bring respectful debate and discussion in with you.

Why respect paleoconservatism? It's redundant by definition.
I like its beliefs in sum better; right-wing economics, non-interventionism and mild social conservatism - much better than neoconservatism, which I have little respect for. Furthermore, it is not redundant - the paleo- prefix simply means an older form of a belief, used to differentiate it from a newer form; essentially, to distill the original movement from modern trends in it. Politics is dynamic, and therefore this is necessary. It would only be redundant if there were no paleocon's left - many Republicans* still belong to this movement though. Other non-partisan individuals belong to it too. I myself am a paleolibertarian (older subsect of libertarianism) - yet we are certainly not a "redundant" group. At any rate, something simply being extinct doesn't lessen its value in my opinion - this trend to detest/disregard old things is a modern malaise.

*For the US; insert appropriate partisan affiliations for Europeans etc.

The solution, IMO, isn't to walk away from the forum, but to walk into it, and bring respectful debate and discussion in with you.
Indeed; essentially to be the voice of reason when others fail to do so.

I find it highly unlikely that most christians are equally disagreeable as the loud minority.

Quite possibly, but the spectacle of someone denouncing someone else as illogical and then commiting a classic logical fallacy in the very next sentence was too good to let pass by unremarked.

Good for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Europa Maxima
Regrettably the OP has a point; I have seen more moderate religious centre-right conservatives mocked for their beliefs here than any other group, and dismissed as irrational bigots even if this isn't so. Right-wingers of my own kind (libertarians) tend to have an easier time here. Personally, I have very little affection for neoconservatives, fascists, bigots, nationalists and the like, just as I have little affection for most communists etc. However, simply dismissing people as illogical due to their views and not listening to what they have to say is a blatant display of intolerance and closemindedness in and of itself. So unless you are willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, I would recommend to most out there not to claim the moral high ground. My recommendation is to ignore anyone too close-minded to hear you out. They are not worthy of your notice. Religophobia is simply the trend du jour.



Good post. I very much agree with you. :)

Now for a few thoughts of my own.

It's a funny thing. It doesn't happen alot, perhaps because I'm not sufficiently conservative or into harping about my religion, but there have been occasions where I have had the joy of dealing with people assuming that just because I disagree with modern liberal thought on a particular point, I must be a filthy religious conservative OMG NOEZ!!!11 It's always annoying, and certainly unfair, considering that I'm not conservative politically and don't push my religion on folks.

That said, I've seen liberals get the same sort of treatment from conservatives on this forum. Granted, on the whole there is somewhat less of it happening to liberals just due to forum demographics, but it's hardly just the conservative religious folks that have to put up with that shit, and it's just as unfair when it's done to liberals as conservatives.

The solution, IMO, isn't to walk away from the forum, but to walk into it, and bring respectful debate and discussion in with you.


"..However, simply dismissing people as illogical due to their views and not listening to what they have to say is a blatant display of intolerance and closemindedness in and of itself..."

Thus the unbelievable treatment of one "IAKEO".

You tell me,.. am I treated fairly, or not? And why?


-Iakeo

"..However, simply dismissing people as illogical due to their views and not listening to what they have to say is a blatant display of intolerance and closemindedness in and of itself..."

Thus the unbelievable treatment of one "IAKEO".

You tell me,.. am I treated fairly, or not? And why?


-Iakeo
Hmmm, care to elaborate?

Hmmm, care to elaborate?

Iakeo is a frequent rule-breaker with strong attention-whoring tendencies. While I have nothing against him personally, having enjoyed some of his posting in the past, and I have nothing against him politically either, he's no longer welcome here because of his repeated flouting of the rules. I'd recommend that you ignore him and report him when you do see him.

It's too bad, really. I think he could have been a really good poster here if he had just refrained from breaking the rules. I'm sad that he chose to do otherwise.

This is so illogical. Christianity does not suck, because most Christians do not suck.

To some degree, I disagree, if that makes any sense.

If it were indeed a small minority of Christians like the Phelps, who ranted and raved against whatever particular bee was in thier bonnet, I would happily and cheerfully agree with you.
In fact, I can actually agree with your statement, becuase the majority of Christians do not make such vocal oposition to any such cause.

But those people are slowly becoming a minority.

Simply being a christian means that you must adhere to its basic principles, and these days more and more of its followers believe that means taking a stance on those with traditionally "unchristian" values.

Homosexuality, or other religious beliefs being the most prevailant of the two.

Every day, more and more Christians become vocal about a certain subject.

In a sense, there are slowly becoming less of the "average joe christians".
and more of the "right-wing Fundie Nutbags".

You now how many folks around the world think that we as americans suck, becuase our President sucks, and that its our fault he got elected.
Even if thats not quite the case, there is a grain of truth to it.

My grain of truth is no less valid.

Christianity sucks, becuase more and more christians start to suck, everyday.

Did you miss the above sentence where I freely admitted this?

I didnt think I was mincing words.

I dont hate Christ, or his religion......its his followers that suck.

I read your whole post. I found it... distasteful.


Its not religion I have a problem with, its those who follow it.


Do you see why he started this thread??? Perhaps people like him have run into the same mentality that you profess here before. I know I have (and not just on religion).

Do not mistake the actions of a few with those of the whole. Some of us aren't all that radical and do not do things such as "blow up abortion clinics". And we kinda take offense to someone insinuating it. Expect a snide remark or two when you attack a whole group of people.

On a different note:



Yesterday, 7:34 AM
Weitzel
This message has been deleted by HotRodia. Reason: Trolling. 1 post penalty.


Tried to PM you, Hotrodia, but kept getting the pesky "you do not have permission to access this page."

I believe that I deserved to be warned, but deleting the post (which I edited and ended up there anyways... hehe) is uncalled for, especially because others that were "trolling" were allowed to keep their posts.

Asshat.

Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck[...]

"right-wing Fundie Nutbags"

If the rules are going to be enforced in the way you have chosen, then please enforce them equally. If not, then what we have here isn't a dialogue, as you claim we need, but rather a group of grandstanders looking to prove their close-minded point.

Then I read this:

That said, I've seen liberals get the same sort of treatment from conservatives on this forum. Granted, on the whole there is somewhat less of it happening to liberals just due to forum demographics, but it's hardly just the conservative religious folks that have to put up with that shit, and it's just as unfair when it's done to liberals as conservatives.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against cussing (I do it all the time), but I believe this isn't exactly what a mod should be doing, right? If I were to say SHIT in one of my post, I'd either have it deleted or edited with one of them fancy "penalty points" (which make me feel like I'm back in Kindergarden and robbed the cookie jar again).

For the record, I tried to resolve this issue privately, but the restrictions put on my account would not allow it. Take what I've said as you will, as I have been here a long time, and plan on being here for much, much longer.

Best Regards,

The United States of Weitzel

shitty shitbag shit shit shit


watch this post not be deleted.

but anyway, on topic: religious conservatives get flak because often they mix their religious dogma in with policies that a) make a whole lot of sense otherwise or b) make no sense otherwise. People assume therefore, that their arguments will always fall into category b, and dismiss them. Clearly, a foolish thing to do.

Has anyone once thought about how the creator of the topic didn't want this?

Me nethier.

FLAME ON!

Well, let's face facts: that's just how humans are. Sure, left-wingers(and those of us who identify ourselves as neither wing, but merely progressive in all issues)love to proclaim themselves as being more open-minded, but it's simply not true. It's not how humans work. It's part of our survival instinct. Anything that is not exactly like ourselves is feared and hated and attacked so as to prevent a possible threat from eliminating us. Makes you wonder how the hell a species with such instincts as ourselves managed to create civilizations in the first place, let alone be technologically capable of such feats as the internet.

I read your whole post. I found it... distasteful.

I can imagine why, and frankly, I dont really care.



Do you see why he started this thread??? Perhaps people like him have run into the same mentality that you profess here before. I know I have (and not just on religion).

Sure.
You can blame me for not liking Christians, and say Im some sort of bigot for not liking or trusting many christians.
Or...you can ask yourself, or me, why that is.


Do not mistake the actions of a few with those of the whole. Some of us aren't all that radical and do not do things such as "blow up abortion clinics". And we kinda take offense to someone insinuating it. Expect a snide remark or two when you attack a whole group of people.

Im not surprised that you missed the point of what I wrote.

Let me rephrase:

No..not all Christians are blowing up abortion clinics.

But more and more of them are considering it, or sympathizing with with those who do, every day.

If it isnt Abortion clinics, its people who take on the "Phelps Mentality".

What Im saying is, there are fewer and fewer normal, good christians out there. There seems to be a gradual shift to militant fundamentalism in this country from the Christian right, and frankly, that scares the shit out of me.

I'm getting sick of religion threads, period. Either you're religious, or you're not. If you are, great. If you aren't, great. But you're not going to change anyone's mind. So debating it is a big stupid waste of time.

I'm getting sick of religion threads, period. Either you're religious, or you're not. If you are, great. If you aren't, great. But you're not going to change anyone's mind. So debating it is a big stupid waste of time.

So is bitching about religion threads.

If youre that tired of em.....dont enter one, and shaddap.

So is bitching about religion threads.

If youre that tired of em.....dont enter one, and shaddap.

*smacks*

I don't enter them (present one excepted). But I do get tired of visiting General and seeing nothing but threads on religion.

*smacks*

I don't enter them (present one excepted). But I do get tired of visiting General and seeing nothing but threads on religion.

Or maybe you just like to bitch?

Dont like religion threads?
Dont go in them.

Too many religion threads in NS General?

I think you know the next line...

But those people are slowly becoming a minority.

Simply being a christian means that you must adhere to its basic principles, and these days more and more of its followers believe that means taking a stance on those with traditionally "unchristian" values.

Homosexuality, or other religious beliefs being the most prevailant of the two.

Every day, more and more Christians become vocal about a certain subject.

In a sense, there are slowly becoming less of the "average joe christians".
and more of the "right-wing Fundie Nutbags".
Where? In your mid-sized town in the North Mid-west? There are two billion Christians in the world and most of them are not like those Republichristian hypocrites.


Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against cussing (I do it all the time)
I have more of a problem with deliberatly mispelling easy words like cursing than cursing itself.

Where? In your mid-sized town in the North Mid-west? There are two billion Christians in the world and most of them are not like those Republichristian hypocrites.

Really?

How is it then that Bush got re-elected?

Is it possible that the mindset of the average American Christian is generally sliding to the right?
Is it possible that Bush was elected becuase the voting christian population wanted god to want him to be president?

Yes..in my town, and yours.

Once again....I will re-iterate.

NO...THE AVERAGE CHRISTIAN IS NOT A FUNDIE NUTJOB

Im getting tired of having to repeat myself..so thats the last time Im gonna say it.

No, but the average of Christians has shifted in that direction.

Meh, the main problem is that as soon a religious person creates a thread/comments on anything, it is immediately assumed (by many) that he/she is a religious fundamentalist, seeking nothing more then a reason to condemn various people to Hell. Perhaps this is from bad experience, I wouldn't be surprised.

The thing is, I'm fairly certain that an educated religious fellow, posting in an intelligent, considerate matter won't even garner a battered eyelid in regards to his or her beliefs. It's when a person's intelligence has been replaced with verses from the Bible that NSGers start howling for their blood.

Just my 2 aussie cents, which is like 1.6 American.

I have more of a problem with deliberatly mispelling easy words like cursing than cursing itself.

Go buy yourself a dictionary. 'Cuss' is a perfectly acceptable word.

Tried to PM you, Hotrodia, but kept getting the pesky "you do not have permission to access this page."

That's probably because NSers don't have access to the PM system on Jolt.

I believe that I deserved to be warned, but deleting the post (which I edited and ended up there anyways... hehe) is uncalled for, especially because others that were "trolling" were allowed to keep their posts.

It's very much called for, given what you posted.

Asshat.

Mild flaming.

Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck[...]

Trolling.

right-wing Fundie Nutbags

I'd have to see the context on this one to determine rule-breaking.

If the rules are going to be enforced in the way you have chosen, then please enforce them equally. If not, then what we have here isn't a dialogue, as you claim we need, but rather a group of grandstanders looking to prove their close-minded point.

Link me to the posts, mate. I skimmed over the thread and probably missed a number of things that were said, both your quoted lines and a lot of other statements.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against cussing (I do it all the time), but I believe this isn't exactly what a mod should be doing, right? If I were to say SHIT in one of my post, I'd either have it deleted or edited with one of them fancy "penalty points" (which make me feel like I'm back in Kindergarden and robbed the cookie jar again).

No, you really wouldn't have it deleted. As long as you aren't cursing excessively, to the point where it's basically curse-spamming, I'm fine with it.

For the record, I tried to resolve this issue privately, but the restrictions put on my account would not allow it. Take what I've said as you will, as I have been here a long time, and plan on being here for much, much longer.

I'm glad to hear it. You've handled this very respectfully. We need more of that around here.

The solution, IMO, isn't to walk away from the forum, but to walk into it, and bring respectful debate and discussion in with you.

the solution, IMO, is to learn to recognize trolling when you see it and IGNORE IT. 75% of the irrationally negative posts are done by trolls. responding to them allows them to troll again. ignoring them encourages them to go somewhere where they will get the reaction they seek.

the other 25% of irrationally negative posts are by people like backwoodssquatches (right here in this thread) and serve as a starting point for the believer to outline what s/he sees as the truth of the situation.

there is nothing wrong with a strong opinion that you dont agree with even if its "out there". if you cant deal with someone hating christianity or conservatism then its your problem not the hater's. as long as s/he is willing to discuss it back and forth, its all to the good on a forum like this.

Why does this have to be a thread? I mean honestly, both sides are douchebags to each other. For every atheist goes off on how a religious person is delusional there's a religious person running about proclaiming that all atheists are condemned to hell. For every liberal who gets called a stupid baby killer, there's a conservative who gets called a heartless selfish bastard.

Moreover, a lot of the time people on one side who don't pay much attention to things get all pissed off like this when either a troll from one side flames a legitimate poster from their side or when a legitimate poster from the opposing side insults a troll from their side.

Although the conservatives and religious people seem to bitch about it more.

the solution, IMO, is to learn to recognize trolling when you see it and IGNORE IT. 75% of the irrationally negative posts are done by trolls. responding to them allows them to troll again. ignoring them encourages them to go somewhere where they will get the reaction they seek.

the other 25% of irrationally negative posts are by people like backwoodssquatches (right here in this thread) and serve as a starting point for the believer to outline what s/he sees as the truth of the situation.

there is nothing wrong with a strong opinion that you dont agree with even if its "out there". if you cant deal with someone hating christianity or conservatism then its your problem not the hater's. as long as s/he is willing to discuss it back and forth, its all to the good on a forum like this.

Heh. It would certainly help if folks could just not bother with trolls, and I like to encourage that. But frankly, the primary burden to solve the problem shouldn't be on those who aren't doing anything wrong, but on those who are doing it.

If someone can't express their distaste for a particular group of folks on this forum without trolling them, they might want to go where the rules allow trolling. There are such forums out there already, or they can even start their own forum.

Why does this have to be a thread? I mean honestly, both sides are douchebags to each other.

You just answered your own question. :)

We have threads like this precisely because folks are antagonistic towards one another when expressing their views.

For every atheist goes off on how a religious person is delusional there's a religious person running about proclaiming that all atheists are condemned to hell. For every liberal who gets called a stupid baby killer, there's a conservative who gets called a heartless selfish bastard.

Moreover, a lot of the time people on one side who don't pay much attention to things get all pissed off like this when either a troll from one side flames a legitimate poster from their side or when a legitimate poster from the opposing side insults a troll from their side.

Agreed.

Although the conservatives and religious people seem to bitch about it more.

There are a couple reasons for this, from my perspective.

1.) Demographics on this forum aren't exactly on the side of right-wing authoritarian types. That's neither surprising nor particularly worrying to me, but as a result, conservative and/or religious folks are going to get knocked around a bit more often. C'est la vie.

(Note: Interestingly, my experience in the places I've lived IRL has been the opposite, with the demographics favoring conservatives and/or religious folks. Sadly, liberals tend to get unjustly bashed a lot around where I live.)

2.) Conservative folks are generally (though not always) coming from a position of the status quo that they have grown comfortable with. When that's being challenged, it rocks their boat to some degree. Whereas if you're liberal, you are swimming around looking for a different boat, so there's no rocking.

Heh. It would certainly help if folks could just not bother with trolls, and I like to encourage that. But frankly, the primary burden to solve the problem shouldn't be on those who aren't doing anything wrong, but on those who are doing it.

If someone can't express their distaste for a particular group of folks on this forum without trolling them, they might want to go where the rules allow trolling. There are such forums out there already, or they can even start their own forum.

considering how much trolling goes on here, it may be against the rules but its not much enforced. im not criticizing YOU or any mod, the problem would require such constant keeping up on every thread and strict punishment that it would burn out anyone trying to do it.

there are constant hit and run postings by members with a post count of ONE that our members dont seem to realize is just a freaking troll who is only trying to upset them. it has nothing to do with civil debate or distaste, they are only wanting to piss people off. i suppose they are current members who dont have the balls to be that way under their usual names. maybe they are trolls who wander from forum to forum pissing people off, its not impossible.

my point is, to bring it back to the subject of the thread, that we shouldnt count trolling as religious bashing. once you discount the 75% of irrationally mean posts that are by trolls, you get to a manageable level of bitter disagreement by people who have no problem owning up to their own opinions. THOSE people might jump on every religious thread with a "i dont care about your invisible friend" post but at least you know who they are and that that is their honest opinion. you can talk to them about it or not as you see fit.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

A lot of it must be due to a lack of confidence in their own position and beliefs.

Religion sure has done alot to recieve the wrath of the people. It's only normal that something that has killed millions of people is to look at and be despised. Religion is the source of discrimination and fanatics, Religion has been the greatest killing machine ever, and the numbers constantly rise.

Religion has kept away science, people have gotten killed for saying other things than "God is almighty", and people still have to suffer for believing in other things than an almighty god.
Don't start saying WE are the bashers now. Not after all the things religion has and is still doing to US.

Religion doesn't 'keep away science'. The person who discovered genetics was a devout Catholic monk.

I'm a very religious person and I'm also a scientist. There is only a conflict between stodgy jerks and science, in the same way that different stogy jerks have it out for 'religion'. The thing is, there is no conflict between science and most religions.

As for religion being a 'killing machine'. I don't know about some religions, but the ones I know people from condemn murder and the one I'm a part of says to love your enemies.

Religion doesn't 'keep away science'.

Galileo?

The person who discovered genetics was a devout Catholic monk.

That doesnt mean the Church automatically accepted it. Or anyone, considering it was considered useful until 50 years after his death.

considering how much trolling goes on here, it may be against the rules but its not much enforced. im not criticizing YOU or any mod, the problem would require such constant keeping up on every thread and strict punishment that it would burn out anyone trying to do it.

True. I know we don't get nearly all of it. I've been a regular in General with various nations for the past few years, so I know that a lot goes unreported. And if it doesn't get reported, chances are it's not going to get Moderated.

Take Weitzel's case. His post was reported, so I took care of it. But I didn't read the entire thread to check for trolling just because there was one bad post that got reported, so I missed the other example of trolling.

there are constant hit and run postings by members with a post count of ONE that our members dont seem to realize is just a freaking troll who is only trying to upset them. it has nothing to do with civil debate or distaste, they are only wanting to piss people off. i suppose they are current members who dont have the balls to be that way under their usual names. maybe they are trolls who wander from forum to forum pissing people off, its not impossible.

It's actually very likely. Some folks just get off on causing other people grief, sad as that is. :(

my point is, to bring it back to the subject of the thread, that we shouldnt count trolling as religious bashing. once you discount the 75% of irrationally mean posts that are by trolls, you get to a manageable level of bitter disagreement by people who have no problem owning up to their own opinions. THOSE people might jump on every religious thread with a "i dont care about your invisible friend" post but at least you know who they are and that that is their honest opinion. you can talk to them about it or not as you see fit.

Well "i dont care about your invisible friend" isn't generally trolling, as anti-religious and rude as it might be. So I'm not sure that's a good example here.

And yes, there are some folks who bash religion without breaking the rules. For example, I've debated with Squatch in the past, and disagreed with him on the subject of religion. I can tell from our debates that he has little taste for Christianity or Christians. And generally (though not always), he expresses that in a non-rulebreaking way, which is fine.

Religion-bashing only becomes a Moderation problem when it breaks a rule, such as the rule against trolling. Just like disagreeing with liberals only becomes a Moderation problem when it breaks a rule, such as the rule against trolling.

A lot of it must be due to a lack of confidence in their own position and beliefs.

Or maybe the slope to an Oceania worries us.

(Read 1984, everyone. A real insight into the end result of what worries us.)

You can blame me for not liking Christians, and say Im some sort of bigot for not liking or trusting many christians.
Or...you can ask yourself, or me, why that is.

Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, Iraq war (arguable), etc. And every other evil deed ever done by a select few Christians that decided to use their religion to justify evil deeds. I could ask you for specifics, but almost guaranteed it fits under what I have outlined above.

You may have intended to make a statement about a few Christians, but what it sounded like to me was an attack on the entire religion/followers. Maybe that was your intent instead.


Its not religion I have a problem with, its those who follow it.


So..if a group of Christians burn down an abortion center, after killing the doctor who ran it, and justify themselves with religion, what does that say about the religion they profess?
(Note: you did say "a group", but you automatically equate what a group has done with "the religion they profess", which is an unfair connection)


Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck, not becuase Christ sucked.

If it is your intention to say that a group of Christians are evil, fine. I understand from your point of view that it seems that more and more Christians are falling under this category. But remember- it only takes one to bomb an abortion clinic, or one to manipulate a small group to persuade them to do evil things.

I think of it much like I think of Muslims. Most true Muslims (98%+) would rather live in peace and not suicide bomb, but again, it only takes one person to set a bomb off and kill 200+ people in a crowded market...

I think it's shortsided to condemn a person based solely on the group of which they are a member of. It is not fair, it's prejudice, and it's a dangerous way to judge people. I feel sorry for those that firmly believe in this way of thinking, because they miss out on the many different perspectives on life.

I can imagine why [Weitzel found his original post distasteful] , and frankly, I dont really care.

It's a shame BackwoodsSquatches does not consider other people's opinions on his views. Without this consideration there can be no intelligent debate. Closed minds do absolutely no good.

I have more of a problem with deliberatly mispelling easy words like cursing than cursing itself.

Cuss- To curse or curse at. Also- cussed, cussing, cusses

They are synonyms (mean the same thing). This word is commonly used in rural America, which happens to be where I am from. I understand that in other parts of the world this is not a proper word, so no foul here. (Like the "boot" vs. the "trunk" of the car)

BTW, Misspelling and deliberately. Two s's and you missed an "e". ;-)


It's very much called for, given what you posted.


4 lines. 4 lines seperate these quotes.

Yeah, you don't hate. Not at all. :roll:

Pointing out preceived hypocrisy is trolling? My methodology was suspect. I was just trying to get people to think around here, but apparently the rules do not allow that to happen.

Perhaps I should sugar coat it so it does not hurt anybody's feelings.

"Oh wise BackwoodsSquatches, you have an insight beyond ages. However, I must say I don't agree with what you said about hating a group. LOL :-D"

Enough asskissing? Is that better?


Quote: Asshat.

Mild flaming.
Okay, I guess that's why you're the mod. If it were me, this would have been a much, much larger transgression. I view it as the case between namecalling vs calling out on the issue at hand. As I read on...


And if it doesn't get reported, chances are it's not going to get Moderated.

Take Weitzel's case. His post was reported, so I took care of it.

It didn't ruin my day to have my post deleted. What is a "penalty point" anyway? What are you guys gonna do, take away my birthday?

I found the situation disturbing too. It does beg the question:

Is the only way to get moderation on a thread to bitch and snitch on fellow posters? If I take offense to something somebody says, can I simply bitch and snitch on them to get their opinion deleted just because they didn't sugar coat what they said?

I understand that mods are people, and they have lives. They are mainly volunteers, and there aren't enough hours in the day to review all threads for transgressions. I do not envy your job, Hotrodia. I understand it is difficult to moderate some of us that can act childish at times (myself included), but in the end, either the system has to change or people will just have to grow a thicker skin.

And I believe what I have said summarizes my thoughts on the original intent of the thread, Bush, the Iraq war, and abortion clinic bombings aside.

By just reading this single thread a reasonable persin might come to the conclusion that most people find it easy to justify their own personal hate and venom and written attacks but that they also find it difficult to forgive anyone else theirs. Rave on Mac Duff.

And yes, there are some folks who bash religion without breaking the rules. For example, I've debated with Squatch in the past, and disagreed with him on the subject of religion. I can tell from our debates that he has little taste for Christianity or Christians. And generally (though not always), he expresses that in a non-rulebreaking way, which is fine.

I wouldnt go so far to say that I have "little taste" for them, so much as I absolutely despise the worst of the bunch, like Phelps, and truthfully, have to try very hard not to group the rest into one category.

The thing is, I am capable of making the distinction.

(as pointed out several times in this very thread, even printed in bold type)

By just reading this single thread a reasonable persin might come to the conclusion that most people find it easy to justify their own personal hate and venom and written attacks but that they also find it difficult to forgive anyone else theirs. Rave on Mac Duff.Yay for people that think they have the justifiable right to be hypocrytes because, why, they didn't vote for Bush!

Yay for people that think they have the justifiable right to be hypocrytes because, why, they didn't vote for Bush!

HUZZAH!

Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, Iraq war (arguable), etc. And every other evil deed ever done by a select few Christians that decided to use their religion to justify evil deeds. I could ask you for specifics, but almost guaranteed it fits under what I have outlined above.

Thats the jist of it, but I dont hold deeds done in ages past against them, no more than I might blame myself for something an ancestor may have done.
Rather, its the current trend of events wich I hate.


You may have intended to make a statement about a few Christians, but what it sounded like to me was an attack on the entire religion/followers. Maybe that was your intent instead.

Please refer to my earlier post, with the great big bold type.



(Note: you did say "a group", but you automatically equate what a group has done with "the religion they profess", which is an unfair connection)

Its no more fair to them, than it is to Muslims who are villianized in much the same way, on that, I will concede.
However, I will point out that number of christians who are, or are becoming radical seems to be growing every day.

So, once again, I will say that while I do not think every single Christian in the world is a hate-filled hippocrite, I do believe that as a whole, the lessons of thier teacher, are becoming more and more lost upon them, everyday.



If it is your intention to say that a group of Christians are evil, fine. I understand from your point of view that it seems that more and more Christians are falling under this category. But remember- it only takes one to bomb an abortion clinic, or one to manipulate a small group to persuade them to do evil things.

At this point, I will quote one of my favorite lines from Star Wars:

Whos the more foolish, the fool who leads, or the fool who follows him?


I think it's shortsided to condemn a person based solely on the group of which they are a member of. It is not fair, it's prejudice, and it's a dangerous way to judge people. I feel sorry for those that firmly believe in this way of thinking, because they miss out on the many different perspectives on life.

I do too.
Good thing Ive made the effort to make crystal clear that I DONT want to do that, several times in this very thread.
If youve missed that, Its not my fault.



It's a shame BackwoodsSquatches does not consider other people's opinions on his views. Without this consideration there can be no intelligent debate. Closed minds do absolutely no good.

The real shame is that with the above statement, you show that you havent really taken what Ive been saying into consideration.

Only an idiot refuses to hear advice.

Only a wise man ignores most of it.

The trick is, to hear the opinions of others, and filter out the crap.
If for instance, you were trying to convince me that I am doomed to Hell for my Heathenism, and that I should come back to the fold, I would instantly disregard you, and maybe even mock you.

But, If, (like you were doing above) asking me legitimate questions about my views, and hoping I will consider what you ahve to say in return, Im all ears, baby.





"Oh wise BackwoodsSquatches, you have an insight beyond ages.

Good.
Im glad we both agree on something, at least.


However, I must say I don't agree with what you said about hating a group. LOL :-D"

I am benevolent enough to allow your dissention.
Your welcome.

God, these whiny threads show up like clockwork. If your ideas are attacked by the people of this board, then the odds are that your 'benevolent' rightism and Christianity are really just codewords for homophobia, authoritarianism, military worship, science denial and a host of other assoholic things.

I'm an atheist....and yes..I am full of hate...but that's not because I'm an atheist. Me even being an atheist is BECAUSE I'm full of hate. I believe in nothing, hate everything but I do hate religion more...and it is because of the way that religion works against people, how people use it as a weapon or reasoning. There are actually 30% more murderers in the world who claim "God made me do it," than "The Devil made me do it."

Anyone name all the good things religion have done and I will even find the flaw or at least four things for each good point that is bad...

God, these whiny threads show up like clockwork. If your ideas are attacked by the people of this board, then the odds are that your 'benevolent' rightism and Christianity are really just codewords for homophobia, authoritarianism, military worship, science denial and a host of other assoholic things.


Threads like this would be pointless and tossed aside as mindless drivel with no point based in reality except for one curious thing. They are always and universally responded to by posts such as yours which validate if not outright demonstrate the complaints laid out in the original post.

Threads like this would be pointless and tossed aside as mindless drivel with no point based in reality except for one curious thing. They are always and universally responded to by posts such as yours which validate if not outright demonstrate the complaints laid out in the original post.

In no way. I'm not hating nor really 'bashing,' simply complaining and explaining. There's a big difference.

And you could just say 'don't feed the troll' like a normal person.

I'm an atheist....and yes..I am full of hate...but that's not because I'm an atheist. Me even being an atheist is BECAUSE I'm full of hate. I believe in nothing, hate everything but I do hate religion more...and it is because of the way that religion works against people, how people use it as a weapon or reasoning. There are actually 30% more murderers in the world who claim "God made me do it," than "The Devil made me do it."

Anyone name all the good things religion have done and I will even find the flaw or at least four things for each good point that is bad...


I have to really try to not be this guy...^

Most of the time, I succeed.

Im not an Atheist becuase I hate.
Im an Atheist, becuase I dont believe in God.
Thats it.

Welcome to the internet.

In no way. I'm not hating nor really 'bashing,' simply complaining and explaining. There's a big difference.

And you could just say 'don't feed the troll' like a normal person.


You didnt just quote someone disagreeing with the OP and quip "Me too" so I thought I might as well invest a little time and verbage in a counter viewpoint as well

I have to really try to not be this guy...^

Most of the time, I succeed.

Im not an Atheist becuase I hate.
Im an Atheist, becuase I dont believe in God.
Thats it.

I dont hate, I like a lot of religions. Im an atheist because the beliefs central to those religions are not true. pretty much anything that is a matter of faith is not true.

and we wouldnt bash religious and conservative posters if they didnt want to oppress us and take away our rights and redistribute wealth back to the rich.

snip


Mate, many people post on General because they enjoy debating. I for one am not going to shut up just because some religionists feel picked on. When I disagree with a post, I say so. Do you expect me to sit in a corner and keep quiet, just in case I offend some religionists delicate feelings? Sod that, I'll say whatever I think. It doesn't matter if I am in the minority or if I share the popular opinion. And just because I disagree with somebody over something as silly as religious views, it doesn't mean that I hate them.

There are three things one can absolutely count on in these confusing modern times of ours:

1) Death
2) Taxes
3) The fact that conservative religious individuals will manage to feel oppressed and "bashed" by the mere existence of people who disagree with them.

As a non-hetero atheist feminist, allow me to play a song on my teenie tiny violin for you.

and we wouldnt bash religious and conservative posters if they didnt want to oppress us and take away our rights and redistribute wealth back to the rich.
Or the poor, whatever the case may be. Conservatism doesn't have an economic direction, you know.

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

This is a debate forum. If you are not going to hang around and 'debate' the points you made, you are in the wrong place.

I, for one, am not going to waste my team dignifying with a full response, what is basically a rant.

Im not an Atheist becuase I hate.
Im an Atheist, becuase I dont believe in God.
Thats it.

Hmm... I'm not an atheist because I hate. I'm an atheist because "magic sky faeries did it" isn't a rational answer to anything.

Or the poor, whatever the case may be. Conservatism doesn't have an economic direction, you know.

If you're a capitalist and not in favour with redistributing wealth to the poor, you're in favour of redistributing it to the rich. It's how the system works.

Okay, I guess that's why you're the mod. If it were me, this would have been a much, much larger transgression. I view it as the case between namecalling vs calling out on the issue at hand. As I read on...

It didn't ruin my day to have my post deleted. What is a "penalty point" anyway? What are you guys gonna do, take away my birthday?

That was just my subtly humorous way of explaining the post deletion. There are no official penalty points. Though there are official warnings that let folks know they're asking for harsher punishment if they keep it up.

I found the situation disturbing too. It does beg the question:

Is the only way to get moderation on a thread to bitch and snitch on fellow posters? If I take offense to something somebody says, can I simply bitch and snitch on them to get their opinion deleted just because they didn't sugar coat what they said?

Reporting it is not the only way, but it is the most effective way.

And it has nothing to do with not sugarcoating. I'm not a big fan of sugarcoating myself. It's about violating the rules. Which I really, really suggest you read.

I understand that mods are people, and they have lives. They are mainly volunteers, and there aren't enough hours in the day to review all threads for transgressions. I do not envy your job, Hotrodia. I understand it is difficult to moderate some of us that can act childish at times (myself included), but in the end, either the system has to change or people will just have to grow a thicker skin.

Some people choose to grow a thicker skin. Others choose to report the problems they see. Some choose to leave the forum. Those are your options. Feel free to choose whichever you like.

I wouldnt go so far to say that I have "little taste" for them, so much as I absolutely despise the worst of the bunch, like Phelps, and truthfully, have to try very hard not to group the rest into one category.

The thing is, I am capable of making the distinction.

(as pointed out several times in this very thread, even printed in bold type)

I'm rather skeptical, given past statements you've made and this line from your first post in this very thread...

Christianity sucks, becuase Christians suck, not becuase Christ sucked.

That sounds like you have very little taste for Christianity or Christians.

It's also trolling. And given your past history, if I see you doing it again, you'll earn an official warning and quite possibly more.

(Yes, I had a bit of spare time last night and reviewed the thread.)

What's interesting to me is that the rest of that post was a valid critique of Christianity. If you hadn't thrown that clever line in, you would have been fine. Why waste your time taking jabs at folks when you can make valid critiques that are much more effective without the jabs?

Ok. Most of you don't know me, cause I don't post a lot. But I read a lot of the threads, and I have noticed something. Whenever a religious person makes a thread/post, they always get bashed by a ton of poeple. Whenever a conservative/any-right-winger makes a comment, they get bashed. What I'm asking is: Why? Why do you liberals/atheists have so much hate? You talk like you don't hate but you do. And I'm getting sick of it.

I know, that as soon as this thread appears, I'll probably get bashed. That's why I'm going to retire off General for a few days and just follow a few RP threads I'm in.

Whenever I see a right-winger make a valid point, I see liberals bash it apart. I frequently see anything religious or anyone religious treated like total scum. Why?

It's not as if religion has done anything wrong. Many people have used religion as a justifying cause to make war, but religion in and of itself does not make war. I'm sure if we didn't have religion, we would just make other excuses to have wars.

Also, I frequently see people blowing things way out of proportion and not using comman sense. People assume that because something is right-wing/religious, it is automatically worng. And that's really all. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a very interesting theory on why we don't have world peacec if you want to hear it. Just TG me and I'll tell you. That's all.

Welcome to teh intarwebs.

It's about violating the rules. Which I really, really suggest you read.

Rules are only as good as the people that interpret them. Knowing now how you run things, I will keep that in mind in the future.


Some people choose to grow a thicker skin. Others choose to report the problems they see. Some choose to leave the forum. Those are your options. Feel free to choose whichever you like.

Thank you for pointing out my options. I am no longer lost at long last! ;-)

I'm rather skeptical, given past statements you've made and this line from your first post in this very thread...



That sounds like you have very little taste for Christianity or Christians.

It's also trolling. And given your past history, if I see you doing it again, you'll earn an official warning and quite possibly more.

(Yes, I had a bit of spare time last night and reviewed the thread.)

What's interesting to me is that the rest of that post was a valid critique of Christianity. If you hadn't thrown that clever line in, you would have been fine. Why waste your time taking jabs at folks when you can make valid critiques that are much more effective without the jabs?


Hmm..I think that line was misinterperated by most, and poorly worded by me.

What it meant, was my distaste for christianity is not the fault of its originator.

"..not because Christ sucked", by that I meant, its not his message I have issue with, but rather his followers.

I intended it to be blunt, but for what its worth, I did not intend it to offend.

I do have one quick question though if ya dont mind...

By "my past history", you mean my somewhat aggressive stance on religion, or the number of times I have been repremanded on this forum?

Because aside from one deletion, years ago, I generally manage to keep my nose clean.

At any rate, I'll remember to choose my words a bit more carefully.

Hmm... I'm not an atheist because I hate. I'm an atheist because "magic sky faeries did it" isn't a rational answer to anything.

Im afraid I dont understand you.

Are you saying that not believing in God isnt a good reason to consider ones' self an atheist?

Or are you asking me to rationally explain why I dont believe?

If so, I will explain if you like, but Im sure it wont be a satisfactory answer for non-secular ears, if you have such.

But...

Is he a real right winger?
I'm a Right Honourable Priest taking money from the Riches and helping the poor with good words, poor socialists.

I never heard of a Catholic right winger priest... Rare merchandise these day, alas.
Their speeches is sometimes not so easy to understand, but the votes are to the left, heretic meat!

But I wonder why you do read these people, just post to preach, do not read the insanities you may find around.
Who knows, some of them maybe contagious...

Avoid Rice and cold noodle, that's bad for constipation...

Yours in faith of $$$ our almighty Gold.

If you're a capitalist and not in favour with redistributing wealth to the poor, you're in favour of redistributing it to the rich. It's how the system works.

I consider my stance on economics to be closer to capitalist than to any other classification. I am not for arbitrary redistribution of wealth to anyone. I am for the exchange of capital for goods and services between mutually consenting entities with only as much government interferance as as needed to prevent specific and obvious harm to the general public.

i consider myself to be a bit of a conservative, and i go to a univeristy that is mostly full of communists and socialists. its pretty hard to express your views at debates without being shouted at. and at times people have been attacked.

Most of them will end up being proestablishment conservatives in 10 years anyway.

Rules are only as good as the people that interpret them. Knowing now how you run things, I will keep that in mind in the future.

Keep in mind that you really don't know how I run things, and that I'm hardly the most strict Mod. That will serve you better.

Hmm..I think that line was misinterperated by most, and poorly worded by me.

What it meant, was my distaste for christianity is not the fault of its originator.

"..not because Christ sucked", by that I meant, its not his message I have issue with, but rather his followers.

I intended it to be blunt, but for what its worth, I did not intend it to offend.

I do have one quick question though if ya dont mind...

By "my past history", you mean my somewhat aggressive stance on religion, or the number of times I have been repremanded on this forum?

Because aside from one deletion, years ago, I generally manage to keep my nose clean.

It had to do with your past offenses leading to deletion, yes. I have no qualms about your aggressive stance on religion unless it breaks a rule.

At any rate, I'll remember to choose my words a bit more carefully.

Good. :)

Good. :)

But not much more carefully. :)

Okay, now that you have explained your stance to something that even I can understand (heavy on sarcasm)...

Its no more fair to them, than it is to Muslims who are villianized in much the same way, on that, I will concede.
However, I will point out that number of christians who are, or are becoming radical seems to be growing every day.

The biggest problem the world has ever faced was extremism. Extremists no longer use religion to guide their actions, but rather use religion to justify their actions (of which I believe we are in agreement). This happens on all sides, beit Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. And its getting worse on all sides every day, not just with Christians. I believe that even atheists have their hand in the problem too.

If youve missed that, Its not my fault.
Communication is a two-way street. Was it the fault of the audience or of the author? Whatever. This point is moot.

The real shame is that with the above statement, you show that you havent really taken what Ive been saying into consideration.

Only an idiot refuses to hear advice.

Only a wise man ignores most of it.

It was not clear to me in your original post what your intent was. Admittedly it has been late when I've been posting, so I probably missed your point (since it wasn't in black and white and obvious). I am sorry.

It is foolish to refuse to hear advice, true. But it is wise to listen to opposing views/advice and draw your own conclusions. Ignoring it harbors no new original thought. Without listening to "crap", we would have never had figured the world was flat, or the Earth revolved around the sun, or made any advancement that was considered abnormal for its respective time. And I would have never understood why some people hate Christians. I have come to dislike organized religion myself; I believe God has become too political. This had not been my original belief, but rather one I came to after listening to others' opinions.

If for instance, you were trying to convince me that I am doomed to Hell for my Heathenism, and that I should come back to the fold, I would instantly disregard you, and maybe even mock you.

I'm glad you've made a decision about what you believe. I do not share your opinion on the lack of God. Your opinion may change, or may never. Does that mean it's my job to convince you? No.

If you can live with the potential consequences (or lack thereof) of not believing in some sort of god, then by all means, go for it.

I am benevolent enough to allow your dissention.
Your welcome.

Sarcasm evades you.

Okay, now that you have explained your stance to something that even I can understand (heavy on sarcasm)...


The biggest problem the world has ever faced was extremism. Extremists no longer use religion to guide their actions, but rather use religion to justify their actions (of which I believe we are in agreement). This happens on all sides, beit Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. And its getting worse on all sides every day, not just with Christians. I believe that even atheists have their hand in the problem too.

I would think you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that atheists use thier religion as moral justification for anything, considering they dont actually have a religion.

However, Im glad we agree on the dangers of extremism.


Communication is a two-way street. Was it the fault of the audience or of the author? Whatever. This point is moot.

No.
It would be moot, if I hadnt clearly spelled it out, several times, and even printed it in bold print.

(Remember, we are reffering to me lumping all Christians into one group)



It was not clear to me in your original post what your intent was. Admittedly it has been late when I've been posting, so I probably missed your point (since it wasn't in black and white and obvious). I am sorry.

Among other things, pointing out that the problem with Christianity, lies at the feet of the people who follow it, not at its originator.



I'm glad you've made a decision about what you believe. I do not share your opinion on the lack of God. Your opinion may change, or may never. Does that mean it's my job to convince you? No.

If you can live with the potential consequences (or lack thereof) of not believing in some sort of god, then by all means, go for it.

Indeed I can live with them.
For you see...there are no consequences to fear.
However, I do not feel that anyone else should share my views at my behest.




Sarcasm evades you.

Whatever.

http://www.uab.edu/images/imedpub/Kleenex.jpg

Dry those tears.

Im afraid I dont understand you.

Are you saying that not believing in God isnt a good reason to consider ones' self an atheist?

Or are you asking me to rationally explain why I dont believe?

If so, I will explain if you like, but Im sure it wont be a satisfactory answer for non-secular ears, if you have such.

My ears are as secular as they come. ;)

I'm saying I'm an atheist because all the other options sound kinda silly.