NationStates Jolt Archive


The brutality is just amazing.

PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 20:53
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by what happens in war, but it just never ceases to amaze me what people are capable of.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Insurgents are no longer using just volunteers to drive suicide car bombs but are instead kidnapping people with their cars, rigging the vehicles with explosives, and blowing them up remotely, the Defense Ministry said Thursday.

In what appears to be a new tactic for the insurgency, the ministry said the kidnap victims do not know their cars have been loaded with explosives when they are released.

The ministry issued a statement saying that first "a motorist is kidnapped with his car. They then booby trap the car without the driver knowing. Then the kidnapped driver is released and threatened to take a certain road."

The kidnappers follow the car and when the unwitting victim "reaches a checkpoint, a public place, or an army or police patrol, the criminal terrorists following the driver detonate the car from a distance," the Defense Ministry statement said.

There was no immediate comment from the U.S. military. In the past, U.S. officials have said insurgents often tape or handcuff a suicide driver's hands to a car, or bind his foot to the gas pedal, to ensure that he does not back out at the last minute.

Although roadside bombs are the main weapon used by insurgents, suicide car bombers are designed to maximize casualties and sow fear among the population.

According to the Washington-based Brookings Institution, there have been 343 suicide car bombings causing multiple deaths in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.

Iraq takes over security in one province
Italy formally handed over security responsibility for southern Dhi Qar province to Iraqi forces Thursday.

It's the second of the country's 18 provinces to be handed over to local control.

In a ceremony in Dhi Qar's capital of Nasiriya, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki thanked Italian Defense Minister Arturo Parisi for his country's help in the province.

"It is a great day, it holds the message of the future handover of security control in all of Iraq," al-Maliki said.

With the handover, Iraqis will now be responsible for security in the province, calling in coalition troops only when they are needed for support.

Al-Maliki has said that Iraqi army and police plan to take over security for all provinces in the next 18 months. British troops handed over control of southern Muthana province in July.

Italy's force of some 1,600 troops is expected to be mostly withdrawn by year's end.

In a joint statement, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. military official in Iraq, lauded the handover as "another sign of progress toward a stable and secure Iraq."

The U.N. Assistance Mission in Iraq's Human Rights office warned Wednesday, however, that the number of Iraqi civilians killed in July and August hit 6,599, a record high number that is far greater than initial estimates had suggested and points to the grave sectarian crisis gripping the country. (Full story)

In scattered violence Thursday, at least 15 people were killed, including six policemen whose western Baghdad station was hit with mortar and gunfire.

More mutilated bodies were found, the apparent victims of death squads.

The United Nations' chief anti-torture expert said Thursday that torture in Iraq may be worse now than it was under the regime of Saddam Hussein.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/21/iraq.main.ap/index.html
Ultraviolent Radiation
21-09-2006, 20:57
If only there were an iron-fisted dictator to keep them in line...

/devil's advocate
PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 20:59
If only there were an iron-fisted dictator to keep them in line...

/devil's advocate?

I think the argument that the world is a better place now is starting to wear thin. I wonder what a poll would say if Iraqis were asked if they think there country is a better place.
Kryozerkia
21-09-2006, 21:01
If only there were an iron-fisted dictator to keep them in line...

/devil's advocate
You mean like... *wipes a tear* President Hussein?
Ultraviolent Radiation
21-09-2006, 21:01
I think the argument that the world is a better place now is starting to wear thin. I wonder what a poll would say if Iraqis were asked if they think there country is a better place.

Indeed.

You mean like... *wipes a tear* President Hussein?
How very astute.
PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 21:04
You mean like... *wipes a tear* President Hussein?

Sig.

Renaimed = renamed. :)

I'm not a spelling nazi because I type like shit and make typos all the time, but since it's in your sig I thought I'd point it out.
Intrepid Redshift
21-09-2006, 21:05
I think the argument that the world is a better place now is starting to wear thin. I wonder what a poll would say if Iraqis were asked if they think there country is a better place.

Interestingly enough, such a poll was caste and it had results that I am sure reasoned persons understand and are not shocked by:

Here are the results of an April, 2004, Gallup poll, which was scientifically weighted and involved over 3000 face-to-face interviews all over the country.


On Balance, do you think of the Americans mostly as Occupiers or liberators?

Occupiers: 71 %
Liberators 19%
Drunk commies deleted
21-09-2006, 21:14
You mean like... *wipes a tear* President Hussein?

Hey man, I honestly think Hussein was a great leader for that nation and just the kind of man we need in the middle east. No sarcasm, no fooling.
Minaris
21-09-2006, 21:16
Hey man, I honestly think Hussein was a great leader for that nation and just the kind of man we need in the middle east. No sarcasm, no fooling.

Maybe he should be put back as PM... :eek:
Drunk commies deleted
21-09-2006, 21:19
Maybe he should be put back as PM... :eek:

I doubt we can count on him after we killed his sons.
PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 21:23
Interestingly enough, such a poll was caste and it had results that I am sure reasoned persons understand and are not shocked by:

yeah, I figured that but I was wondering how they would respond to a question like, "Were things better under Saddam?"
Yootopia
21-09-2006, 21:25
Maybe he should be put back as PM... :eek:
Hmm I'm not sure that now he's been out of power he'd be so popular when he got back - I think that a lot of groups which were repressed due to their violent tendencies might be like "fuck getting repressed again - time to kill him off!" at which point everyone's just like "Oh bugger it all, now it's going to be a theocracy for sure".

But in principal, yes.
Glorious Freedonia
21-09-2006, 21:34
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.
Dontgonearthere
21-09-2006, 21:44
Ill agree with Glorious Freedonia. You people are idiots.
Ultraviolent Radiation
21-09-2006, 21:45
You guys do know what "Devil's Advocate" means, right?
Call to power
21-09-2006, 21:45
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from

I <3 American ignorance :D
Ultraviolent Radiation
21-09-2006, 21:47
You guys do know what "Devil's Advocate" means, right?

I think I lapsed into wishful thinking there.
PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 21:47
Nobody here is a Saddam lover and no one is seriously suggesting that anyone put him back in power, but the fact is the lives of most Iraqis look much worse than they did when he was in power. That's not a glorification of Saddam's rule, it's an indictment of the Bush administration's idiocy and incompetence.
Sane Outcasts
21-09-2006, 21:50
Ill agree with Glorious Freedonia. You people are idiots.

Saddam may have been a brutal, sadistic dictator that ruled to feed his own ego, but his methods were the only things keeping sectarian violence from erupting. Once he was removed, the groups who kept their heads down started to take over the torture, murder, and kidnapping. We just traded the dictorial model of organized violence for the egalitarian model. The only type of person who can keep a cap on this sorry situation now would be someone willing to do what Saddam did, namely intimidate all of these small froups of terrorists and insurgents into stopping their attacks through incredibly horrific violence.
Meath Street
21-09-2006, 21:57
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.
I think that saying "Saddam was a good guy" is stupid, but on the other hand being pro-torture isn't as bad as being pro-nuclear genocide.
Dontgonearthere
21-09-2006, 22:00
Saddam may have been a brutal, sadistic dictator that ruled to feed his own ego, but his methods were the only things keeping sectarian violence from erupting. Once he was removed, the groups who kept their heads down started to take over the torture, murder, and kidnapping. We just traded the dictorial model of organized violence for the egalitarian model. The only type of person who can keep a cap on this sorry situation now would be someone willing to do what Saddam did, namely intimidate all of these small froups of terrorists and insurgents into stopping their attacks through incredibly horrific violence.


Oh, so you would rather have an equal amount of sadistic violence sponsored by the state?
At least Iraq isnt a 1984-attempt now.
I dont know about you, but I would rather take my chances in this Iraq than Saddams state.
The Lone Alliance
21-09-2006, 22:04
I doubt we can count on him after we killed his sons.

No he wouldn't care, as long as he's in the spotlight he's happy, I mean I think he's loving the Trial. He's a giant Attention Whore.
Corporate Pyrates
21-09-2006, 22:33
all those who warned the US not to invade Iraq as it was not going to turn out well are feeling quite proud of themselves. French I'm sure are having a nice chuckle over the Iraq situation.
PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 22:36
all those who warned the US not to invade Iraq as it was not going to turn out well are feeling quite proud of themselves. French I'm sure are having a nice chuckle over the Iraq situation.

I'm not feeling good about it at all. In fact, I'm very apprehensive about how the future is going to look when we hand the lion's share of the world's oil over to a bunch of theocrats in Iran, which is essentially what we've done.
Nadkor
21-09-2006, 22:37
The kidnappers follow the car and when the unwitting victim "reaches a checkpoint, a public place, or an army or police patrol, the criminal terrorists following the driver detonate the car from a distance," the Defense Ministry statement said.

No different to what America's Favourite Freedom Fighters the IRA did back in the early 90's.
Gravlen
21-09-2006, 22:39
And this is an optimistic read...
Torture may be worse now in Iraq than under former leader Saddam Hussein, the UN's chief anti-torture expert says.

Manfred Nowak said the situation in Iraq was "out of control", with abuses being committed by security forces, militia groups and anti-US insurgents.

Bodies found in the Baghdad morgue "often bear signs of severe torture", said the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq in a report.

The wounds confirmed reports given by refugees from Iraq, Mr Nowak said.

He told journalists at a briefing in Geneva that he had yet to visit Iraq, but he was able to base his information on autopsies and interviews with Iraqis in neighbouring Jordan.

"What most people tell you is that the situation as far as torture is concerned now in Iraq is totally out of hand," the Austrian law professor said.

"The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein," he added.
Victims come from prisons run by US-led multinational forces as well as by the ministries of interior and defence and private militias, the report said.

The most brutal torture methods were employed by private militias, Mr Nowak told journalists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm
Strummervile
21-09-2006, 22:44
yeah, I figured that but I was wondering how they would respond to a question like, "Were things better under Saddam?"

Probably they would answer yes. Not that the majority probably like him. Its just at least he kept law and order on the side as well as wiping out his political enemies at least it was peaceful and standard of living was decent enough as long as you kept your mouth shut politically. Now they got to watch their friends and neighbors be blown up on the way to work everyday.
Evil Cantadia
21-09-2006, 22:45
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.

Mmmmm ... I love the logic. "If you think that things are worse now in Iraq than under Saddam, then you are all a bunch of torture lovers." No. Saddam was a bad dude. Yet the American invasion has made things even worse for the average Iraqi. This does not mean that I love torture. It means that I think there might have been better ways of "liberating" the Iraqi people.
Corporate Pyrates
21-09-2006, 22:46
I'm not feeling good about it at all. In fact, I'm very apprehensive about how the future is going to look when we hand the lion's share of the world's oil over to a bunch of theocrats in Iran, which is essentially what we've done.there's part of the problem, the perception that it's the "worlds" oil, it's not. Iran's oil belongs to Iran, Iraq's to Iraq and so on, it's this imperialistic mindset that Britian and the USA refuse to give up.

The resources within a country belong to that country to do with as they wish, meddling in their politics to get at their oil is not acceptable.
Strummervile
21-09-2006, 22:48
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.

Your right sadam was horrible. But things were better under him than now. like i said in my previuos post he ran a good economy and kept law and order better than most countries in the middle east. As long as you kept your mouth shut you could live a decent life and have peace and quiet which is what really people care most about. The Iraqis have had a tough time pollitically under him but again at least they didnt have to worry about being blown up or shot on their way to work. And by the way i am American proud to be it dont agree with Iraq. You want to nuke Chicago where i live?
Intrepid Redshift
21-09-2006, 22:54
You guys do know what "Devil's Advocate" means, right?

Ill agree with Glorious Freedonia. You people are idiots.

When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.

It is apparent that they do not. <_<

But I dont think anyone here is saying he was a good leader whatsoever, he was horrible as a fact - however, things have only degenerated NOT become better since the American invasion. But, I am sure that the news or 'education' as you have put it does not speak so much about the bad things as they would rather emphasis the 'liberation'... :rolleyes:
Intrepid Redshift
21-09-2006, 22:55
Your right sadam was horrible. But things were better under him than now. like i said in my previuos post he ran a good economy and kept law and order better than most countries in the middle east. As long as you kept your mouth shut you could live a decent life and have peace and quiet which is what really people care most about. The Iraqis have had a tough time pollitically under him but again at least they didnt have to worry about being blown up or shot on their way to work. And by the way i am American proud to be it dont agree with Iraq. You want to nuke Chicago where i live?

Muchas gracias senor. My point exactly.
Strummervile
21-09-2006, 22:56
there's part of the problem, the perception that it's the "worlds" oil, it's not. Iran's oil belongs to Iran, Iraq's to Iraq and so on, it's this imperialistic mindset that Britian and the USA refuse to give up.

The resources within a country belong to that country to do with as they wish, meddling in their politics to get at their oil is not acceptable.

Well said Oil is one of the major factors that made America a superpower before world war two we were the biggest exporters of oil in the world its what made us so rely so much on cars we had a crapload of oil about as much as the middle eastern countries probably individually have. We just went all gung ho about it and wasted it without thinking ahead.
In Americas defense though we had to use an enourmous amount of our oil suply to fight world war two and keep pretty much all the allied vehicles in the fight with the exception of the Rusians who had plenty of their own oil.
Strummervile
21-09-2006, 22:58
I <3 American ignorance :D

i hope you dont think that about all americans because that would be what i call European ignorance. Every country has ignorant people.
Intrepid Redshift
21-09-2006, 22:58
there's part of the problem, the perception that it's the "worlds" oil, it's not. Iran's oil belongs to Iran, Iraq's to Iraq and so on, it's this imperialistic mindset that Britian and the USA refuse to give up.

The resources within a country belong to that country to do with as they wish, meddling in their politics to get at their oil is not acceptable.

QFT
Intrepid Redshift
21-09-2006, 23:00
i hope you dont think that about all americans because that would be what i call European ignorance. Every country has ignorant people.

This is true too, but there seems to be a disproportionally large amount of ignorant persons in the United States who wish to voice their extreme ignorance. I myself am proud to be an American, but realize that between our government and our many idiots, we have earned a bad rep... :(
Strummervile
21-09-2006, 23:01
No he wouldn't care, as long as he's in the spotlight he's happy, I mean I think he's loving the Trial. He's a giant Attention Whore.

Ya i dont think he really gave a damn about his sons they were entertainment to him i think. Maybe i am wrong but sadaam was a smart man i dont think he seriously expected his sons to last long after him i mean no way they could run Iraq like him and keep the people under control. And any other dictator he could apoint would give them up as offerings the minute Sadaam died. The Iraqis arguable hate the sons more than sadaam they were spoiled brats who didnt do anything but think about their own pleasure and pride.

Sadaam had to have known this.
Nevered
21-09-2006, 23:03
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.

True or False: 3rd degree burns over 90% of the body and lethal doses of radiation is a slow, painful way to die.

And that's only the people in the ring around the focal point who are too far to be incinerated instantly and too close to escape altogether.


I guess you make yourself sick, then...
Strummervile
21-09-2006, 23:04
This is true too, but there seems to be a disproportionally large amount of ignorant persons in the United States who wish to voice their extreme ignorance. I myself am proud to be an American, but realize that between our government and our many idiots, we have earned a bad rep... :(

It will pass every country has good times and bad times i think Bush's stupidity has shown our country what not to do and people have finnaly given up the bullshit republicans like Bush raised over a blow job and realized what a much better prez clinton was. Once Bush's term is up i expect things to improve. Even republicans are turning on Bush i mean its kind of hard not to.

Just the other day Colin Powel came out and said we should be careful of the way the rest of the world is beggining to view us. This Bush crap wont last much longer god willing or any more like him for a long time. What Bush was best at was slinging mud.
And now we all see the mud he slung for the shit it was i didnt fall for it in the first place, but some did i cant say i blame them its nice to have faith in your country but you cant have blind faith.

People now realize this i hope.
PsychoticDan
21-09-2006, 23:33
there's part of the problem, the perception that it's the "worlds" oil, it's not. Iran's oil belongs to Iran, Iraq's to Iraq and so on, it's this imperialistic mindset that Britian and the USA refuse to give up.

The resources within a country belong to that country to do with as they wish, meddling in their politics to get at their oil is not acceptable.

Oh, settle down with the rhetoric. I didn't say "The U.S.'s oil." I said The world's oil. Just the same way that I can say that huge portion of the world's food is grown in the U.S. I don't want the U.S. to control the oil reserves in the Middle East, I just want us to be able to buy it from them.
Meath Street
21-09-2006, 23:43
all those who warned the US not to invade Iraq as it was not going to turn out well are feeling quite proud of themselves. French I'm sure are having a nice chuckle over the Iraq situation.
Most anti-war people aren't out to feed their own egos, so it's not so much pride we feel so much as worry, and anger.
Yootopia
21-09-2006, 23:47
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.
*super sighs*

Our education is fine, perhaps you don't watch the news and hence don't realise what Iraq would have been like for the last twenty years sans Saddam.
Corporate Pyrates
22-09-2006, 01:05
Oh, settle down with the rhetoric. I didn't say "The U.S.'s oil." I said The world's oil. Just the same way that I can say that huge portion of the world's food is grown in the U.S. I don't want the U.S. to control the oil reserves in the Middle East, I just want us to be able to buy it from them.

OK, it may not be what you meant but that is the world sees, the USA and Britain really don't give a F*** about democracy and freedom that's just a cover for securing oil and preserving their lifestyle at another countries expense. Rwanda needed intervention, no one cared, Zimbabwe could use some freedom and democracy but they have no oil so no one cares.

As you say "I just want us to be able to buy it" that's the same problem, if they don't want to sell it to US or any other countries corporations too bad, it's theirs. Telling them to who they should sell or when they can sell their oil is still trying to control their reserves.
PsychoticDan
22-09-2006, 01:08
OK, it may not be what you meant but that is the world sees, the USA and Britain really don't give a F*** about democracy and freedom that's just a cover for securing oil and preserving their lifestyle at another countries expense. Rwanda needed intervention, no one cared, Zimbabwe could use some freedom and democracy but they have no oil so no one cares.

As you say "I just want us to be able to buy it" that's the same problem, if they don't want to sell it to US or any other countries corporations too bad, it's theirs. Telling them to who they should sell or when they can sell their oil is still trying to control their reserves.

I agree except that I do believe that the admin is concerned about democracy and freedom in the Middle East only because they want access to the oil on a free market. They don't like state owned oil companies. But you're right about why we don't give a shit about darfur. We did interfere in Rwanda, remember? Our marines being dragged through the streets? the movie, Black Hawk Down? To our defense, though, I don't see France or Germany or China sending any peace keepers to Darfur, either... Or Iran for that matter.
Vetalia
22-09-2006, 01:10
I agree except that I do believe that the admin is concerned about democracy and freedom in the Middle East only because they want access to the oil on a free market. They don't like state owned oil companies. But you're right about why we don't give a shit about darfur. We did interfere in Rwanda, remember? Our marines being dragged through the streets? the movie, Black Hawk Down? To our defense, though, I don't see France or Germany or China sending any peace keepers to Darfur, either... Or Iran for that matter.

Actually, that was Somalia that we intervened in and was covered in Black Hawk Down. Same principle, however; there were warlords going nuts and killing a lot of people along with hoarding food supplies and starving innocent people to death.
PsychoticDan
22-09-2006, 01:18
Actually, that was Somalia that we intervened in and was covered in Black Hawk Down. Same principle, however; there were warlords going nuts and killing a lot of people along with hoarding food supplies and starving innocent people to death.

oh, yeah.
German Nightmare
22-09-2006, 02:13
Even more "amazing brutality" right here:

"U.N. expert: Iraq torture may be worse

GENEVA - Torture in Iraq may be worse now than it was under Saddam Hussein, with militias, terrorist groups and government forces disregarding rules on the humane treatment of prisoners, the U.N. anti-torture chief said Thursday. (...)"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_iraq_torture

I guess the "good news" just keep on coming... :(
Intrepid Redshift
22-09-2006, 03:44
I agree except that I do believe that the admin is concerned about democracy and freedom in the Middle East only because they want access to the oil on a free market. They don't like state owned oil companies. But you're right about why we don't give a shit about darfur. We did interfere in Rwanda, remember? Our marines being dragged through the streets? the movie, Black Hawk Down? To our defense, though, I don't see France or Germany or China sending any peace keepers to Darfur, either... Or Iran for that matter.

Glad someone before me pointed out that that was Somalia... because the US was NOT involved in Rwanda for many parts because of what happened in Somalia. The US and the world community turned a blind eye to the genocide in hopes that it would just go away and no one would remember it.

And on a side note, and interesting fact: France DID send troops into Rwanda. Guess what? They supported the Hutus who were committing the genocide. In fact, when the French troops secured ground, Hutus would regularly come in behind them and massacre any Tutsi in the area. All because France supported the genocidal regime because of financial reasons. :rolleyes:
Congo--Kinshasa
22-09-2006, 05:05
And on a side note, and interesting fact: France DID send troops into Rwanda. Guess what? They supported the Hutus who were committing the genocide. In fact, when the French troops secured ground, Hutus would regularly come in behind them and massacre any Tutsi in the area. All because France supported the genocidal regime because of financial reasons. :rolleyes:

O RLY?
Secret aj man
22-09-2006, 05:25
Hey man, I honestly think Hussein was a great leader for that nation and just the kind of man we need in the middle east. No sarcasm, no fooling.

i have to agree with reservations.

he was as despicable as they come,but for some reason people over their only undersatnd violence and force.
not all people,but things went pretty smoothly when saddam was there,nevermind the deathcamps/torture and the knock in the middle of the night.
they had electricity,and as long as you towed the party line...everything was hunky dokey.
just dont dissagree with policy and your set.

i myself could not live that way,but i dont know or understand the culture there...so i cant honestly try to understand.

we should have just funded little wars with him as our boy,and everythng would be peaches and cream for us,cept the people their that get tossed off roofs handcuffed.

but they are not reallly people...they dont deserve or even want to be free to live their lives.(sarcasm)

they want to be put in their place or else...lovely life.

now i think the nuts are all jockeying for position,and bush might be right afterall,if we can align them into a democracy..then things might change for all of the middle east.

but the benovelent leaders over there might not like that.

i got no clue,i do agree that saddam had things under control,but then again i would hate to be educated and live in that world(saddams)

your probably correct....if that is what they want/need..then we got no biz there except for biz stuff.

hell if we wanted to do this for oil,we should have just invaded canada....they wouldnt fight back,and we do get most of our oil from there i think.

invade canada i say,and withdraw from iraq....and re instate saddam...everyone is happy.

hell,canada would just give us the oil to be nice,we would not have to fire a shot.
and not deal with deranged nuts killing kids cause they are from a different sect of the same religion....the smart ones can emmigrate.
Intrepid Redshift
22-09-2006, 06:05
O RLY?

:p

Most people just dont know. And I am intellectually cursed in that I feel compelled to try to spread what I know in the futile hope that it will be absorbed and help change our world. ;)
Congo--Kinshasa
22-09-2006, 06:08
:p

Most people just dont know. And I am intellectually cursed in that I feel compelled to try to spread what I know in the futile hope that it will be absorbed and help change our world. ;)

I'd heard France supported the regime, but not militarily.

I do know that they continued to support Mobutu Sese Seko long after the rest of the Western world cold shouldered him. They even wanted military intervention to bail him out during the Kabila rebellion. They didn't get that, but they were able to send some Serbian mercenaries, not that it made any difference.
CanuckHeaven
22-09-2006, 06:33
When I hear people saying that they are Saddam lovers it makes me want to nuke Europe or wherever the hell you are all from. You guys need a better education. Saddam was horrible. His regime did a whole bunch of torturing. Pro-Torture folks make me sick. You should be tortured and see if you are still pro-Torture afterwards.
Bolding mine. And this would make you a better person than Saddam in what way? :eek:
Intrepid Redshift
22-09-2006, 06:49
I'd heard France supported the regime, but not militarily.

Oh they INDEED sent troops into Rwanda, in fact:

From October 1990 to December 1993, the French army led Opération Noroit, when the president of the French Republic responded to the Rwandan Republic. France openly supported the regime of Juvénal Habyarimana against the FPR rebels: "French presence to the limit of direct engagement" according to the title of a chapter of the report of the French parliamentary mission. This operation allowed the French to organise and train Rwandan troops, who subsequently formed the Interahamwe militias, or even future militiamen.

During this period, France is also accused of having armed and helped the extremist regime which prepared for the genocide and did not hide its genocidal intention in the Rwandan press or French soldiers. French troops have acknowledges to having gone ahead with identity controls on the foundation of the ethnic identity card of the Rwandan Republic which pinpointed if the person was Hutu, Tutsi, or Twa. They equally recognised having gone along with interrogations in prisons in Rwanda and to having advised FAR officers in how to combat the FPR. Some witnesses say that French soldiers would have taken part in the fighting.

Oppositely, France, in agreement with the international community, endorsed the peace process of the negotiations of the Arusha accords between the Rwandan government, their opposition, and the exiles of the FPR.

In December 1993, France officially hid in front of the arrival of the UNAMIR, peace mission from the UN, who had come to the implementation of the Arusha accords. According to diverse sources, it seems that despite everything, some military technicians continued to operate in Rwanda. A couple of Frenchmen were notably assassinated, it seems by the FPR, in the hours that followed the attack. This couple set up sophisticated electronic equipment. Other leads of this type exist.

On 8 April 1994, two days after the attack against president Habyarimana, France launched Opération Amaryllis in order to permit the secured evacuation of 1500 residents, essentially westerners. The Rwandan survivors have strongly criticised that operation which, according to numerous testimonials, did not include the evacuation of the Rwandans threatened with the massacres, even when they were employed by the French authorities. France also evacuated dignitaries from the Habyarimana regime, and on 11 April, 97 children from the orphanage protected by Madame Habyarimana were evacuated. According to several sources, several dignitaries close to the Habyarimana family were also evacuated. Operation Amaryllis terminated on 14 April.

Read more here: http://www.answers.com/topic/role-of-the-international-community-in-the-rwandan-genocide

;)