NationStates Jolt Archive

Im just wondering if anybody has noticed how God and Satan talk to eachother during this book in the bible?

They talk like old friends and also Satan is in God presence, Yet was he not banished? Forced to live away from God, then why is he seen here casually talking to God?

Im christian btw but i found this very interesting since it shows some insight into Gods relationship with Satan, Even after he was banished.

Its a parable.

A story to encourage faith in God.

"hang in there".

I wouldnt use it a reference between the relationship between God and his Left-Hand man, as it were, since this of course, never really happened.

Now, me, being an atheist, really hates the book of Job for the following reasons:

1. It demonstrates the callousness of God, by having him treat Job like a plaything, doing more and more rotten things to him, just to see if he will snap.
It doesnt encourage me to be faithful, it makes me think God is a dickhead.

2. Basically, God allows Job to be robbed of everything he ever held dear.
His family, his livelyhood, and his health...all to prove some silly arguement.

Retarded.

I was actually more focusing on the Casual talk between God and Satan.

I never got that book either

wah it's a parable?! whatever happened to that bible thing being the literal truth? or is it like Revelations, it's ok to inteprate it symbolically because it clearly doesn't make any sense?

I was actually more focusing on the Casual talk between God and Satan.

I never got that book either

I always imagined Satan ordering 200 pizzas to Archangel Michael's house every so often...
Hes probably the type to hold a grudge.

Well thats what i mean God and Satan talk like old friend who have not seen eachother in awhile.

God even said in a nutshell "where have you been?"

wah it's a parable?! whatever happened to that bible thing being the literal truth? or is it like Revelations, it's ok to inteprate it symbolically because it clearly doesn't make any sense?

Exactly.

Most of the Bible is a collection of Hebrew stories with a Message. In latter days, people have screwed up a lot of the stories by thinking them truth (while ther are some with some level of truth involved, there are a lot of parables, which were never meant to be considered true, instead were meant to be considered allegorical).

wah it's a parable?! whatever happened to that bible thing being the literal truth? or is it like Revelations, it's ok to inteprate it symbolically because it clearly doesn't make any sense?

I dunno...ask Noah how he managed to put two of every animal on a boat, and float it around for 40 days.

Or ask that guy Jonah, who got swallowed whole by a whale, and lived to tell of it.

Or that Methusalah fellow who lived to be over 900 yeard old...

Im sure it all happened. *nods*

/sarcastic jerk.

:rolleyes: can we for onice stay on the subject at hand? lets avoid going completely off subject and make another rubbish thread.

:rolleyes: can we for onice stay on the subject at hand? lets avoid going completely off subject and make another rubbish thread.

Heh fat chance my friend, good luck with it!:eek:

:rolleyes: can we for onice stay on the subject at hand? lets avoid going completely off subject and make another rubbish thread.

What exactly is it your asking, if not about the Book of Job.
The relationship between God and Satan, and if they occasionally get togther for tea and a scone?

No, it's not a parable. The Old Testament is a collection of histories, with the exception of the creation story, which is written in parable form.

In Hebraic tradition, the term "satan" is derived from the "Ha-Satan" - an official position in the court of heaven; which was, to use a modern term, basically a devil's advocate ("satan" means "opposer" or "to oppose"). It was only much later that the idea of Satan became a major force of evil.

You'll note that the idea that Satan was thrown out of heaven is not actually posited anywhere in the bible.

I wanted a discussion on why one moment satan is a fallen angel forever banished from heaven and in job he appears right infront of God and where does God live? in heaven.

It was more intended for the Christian/Jewish members but everytime i start a thread it's nothing but Atheist (no offence, seriously).

I wanted a discussion on why one moment satan is a fallen angel forever banished from heaven and in job he appears right infront of God and where does God live? in heaven.

It was more intended for the Christian/Jewish members but everytime i start a thread it's nothing but Atheist (no offence, seriously).

Because it's allegorical. The people who initially told the story wanted their audience to see that there was reason for God whacking Job around so heavily, and not just him doing so for shits and giggles.

I wanted a discussion on why one moment satan is a fallen angel forever banished from heaven and in job he appears right infront of God and where does God live? in heaven.

It was more intended for the Christian/Jewish members but everytime i start a thread it's nothing but Atheist (no offence, seriously).

Well, in that case, let me put it to you like this:

Ever get fired from a job, and yet still hang out with people from your old job?

Ive gotten sacked by some of my best friends.

Especially if God were as forgiving as many claim, why wouldnt he talk to Lucifer, who was once the Angel of Light?

God's everywhere. Satan doesn't have to be in heaven to talk to Him. It's just more likely that Satan, once being an angel and now the devil himself, knows where to look. And there's really no reason for God not to talk to him, if only to make a point; the point being, Job was an upright man who feared God. God allowed Satan to do bad things to Job to show him that Job would still fear God and wouldn't turn away. Also, allowing these things to happen also gave God the opportunity to get on Job's case about justifying himself. Job kept saying, "I did nothing to deserve these things, so why are they happening to me?" God basically says, "Why are you questioning me (even if I'm not doing these things myself)? I can do anything, so don't let a little pain and suffering get in the way of your faith." And then, He gives Job back twice what he had before.
Moral to the story: bad things happen to good people because of the world we live in. But, God provides in all situations, if you just have faith enough to believe and look for blessings.

I wanted a discussion on why one moment satan is a fallen angel forever banished from heaven and in job he appears right infront of God and where does God live? in heaven.

It was more intended for the Christian/Jewish members but everytime i start a thread it's nothing but Atheist (no offence, seriously).

Well, it's because in many cases-like me, for instance--atheists have a greater appreciation for the Bible as a work of literature because we're not bound by traditions telling us that it's literal truth. I enjoy the Bible far more now that I don't believe it's the Word of God than I ever did as a believer.

In the Old Testament you will notice that Satan is never spoken of as a great evil. Man's rebelliousness and lack of faith is what is evil. Satan's job is to tempt, but he is not the great evil that he becomes later.

What I would like to know is when Lucifer fell from heaven. I dont think that there is even that much talk about it in the bible. So where do the stories of his fall came from?

What I would like to know is when Lucifer fell from heaven. I dont think that there is even that much talk about it in the bible. So where do the stories of his fall came from?
If my memory serves, the only place the fall is really talked about in scripture is in Revelation. Most of the stuff about the fall comes from literature, most notably Dante and Milton.

Its a parable.

A story to encourage faith in God.

"hang in there".

I wouldnt use it a reference between the relationship between God and his Left-Hand man, as it were, since this of course, never really happened.

Now, me, being an atheist, really hates the book of Job for the following reasons:

1. It demonstrates the callousness of God, by having him treat Job like a plaything, doing more and more rotten things to him, just to see if he will snap.
It doesnt encourage me to be faithful, it makes me think God is a dickhead.

2. Basically, God allows Job to be robbed of everything he ever held dear.
His family, his livelyhood, and his health...all to prove some silly arguement.

Retarded.It is not at all demonstrating the callousness of God, but it shows that God is not willing to merely allow us to stay imperfect, but desires for us to continue to become better. He is like a father willing to let their child put a cigarrette butt in their mouth so that the kid will stop picking them up.

Because it's allegorical. The people who initially told the story wanted their audience to see that there was reason for God whacking Job around so heavily, and not just him doing so for shits and giggles.

Yeah but in the end doing it was for "shits and giggles" can an omni-potent god win a bet without torturing someone?

It is not at all demonstrating the callousness of God, but it shows that God is not willing to merely allow us to stay imperfect, but desires for us to continue to become better. He is like a father willing to let their child put a cigarrette butt in their mouth so that the kid will stop picking them up.

So in order to prove the importance of faith, God takes away everything Job has built and kills his kills his kids, and that's like letting a child smoke to teach him a lesson about smoking? That's one fucked up analogy, no offense.

If my memory serves, the only place the fall is really talked about in scripture is in Revelation. Most of the stuff about the fall comes from literature, most notably Dante and Milton.

The Qur'an talks about the fall though. It was obviously something that was current in Abrahmic thinking, it just didn't make it into the bible.

So in order to prove the importance of faith, God takes away everything Job has built and kills his kills his kids, and that's like letting a child smoke to teach him a lesson about smoking? That's one fucked up analogy, no offense.
Notice that the reason that Job had that stuff was because God protected him. In all honesty what God did was let his protection fall. He let the normal consequences of living in the world happen. He did not do anything to job accept the consequences of living in the world that we live in.

Notice that the reason that Job had that stuff was because God protected him. In all honesty what God did was let his protection fall. He let the normal consequences of living in the world happen. He did not do anything to job accept the consequences of living in the world that we live in.

So god is constantly sheltering us from bad things? Everyone or just the believers? If everyone why did he invent such a flawed world in which he would constantly have to protect us from anyways?

Im just wondering if anybody has noticed how God and Satan talk to eachother during this book in the bible?

They talk like old friends and also Satan is in God presence, Yet was he not banished? Forced to live away from God, then why is he seen here casually talking to God?

Im christian btw but i found this very interesting since it shows some insight into Gods relationship with Satan, Even after he was banished.

There is no enmity between Satan and God in the Jewish part of the Bible. Satan, the Accuser, is one of God's most trusted servants.
It of course casts a shadow on the Jewish god that through Satan he puts people into trouble just to see how they cope with it.

God's everywhere. Satan doesn't have to be in heaven to talk to Him. It's just more likely that Satan, once being an angel and now the devil himself, knows where to look. And there's really no reason for God not to talk to him, if only to make a point; the point being, Job was an upright man who feared God. God allowed Satan to do bad things to Job to show him that Job would still fear God and wouldn't turn away. Also, allowing these things to happen also gave God the opportunity to get on Job's case about justifying himself. Job kept saying, "I did nothing to deserve these things, so why are they happening to me?" God basically says, "Why are you questioning me (even if I'm not doing these things myself)? I can do anything, so don't let a little pain and suffering get in the way of your faith." And then, He gives Job back twice what he had before.
Moral to the story: bad things happen to good people because of the world we live in. But, God provides in all situations, if you just have faith enough to believe and look for blessings.

No, bad things happened to Job because God said "sure, Lucifer, go ahead, do bad things to him, it is OK by me... and why don't we lay a side bet on it too?" If the bad things had merely happened because bad things DO happen sometimes, it would be a much less troublesome story. The whole testing of faith thing smacks of excessively abusive behavior, and Job is like an abused spouse who keeps saying "He doesn't mean to hurt me, he really loves me." Sad, sick and a really terrible message. It is basically a story that says that believers should be spineless dogs who lick the hand that beats them in hopes of a treat somewhere down the line.

In a way, I see Satan as the hero of the piece, trying to show Job that his God was not such a wonderful fellow as all that. Unfortunately he was unsuccessful. At any point, Job could (and should) have stood up for himself and said "Cut it the hell out, God. Stop abusing me. This is NOT how civilized creatures behave!", which would have stopped the abuse, and made Job a free human, rather than a slave.

And why does God talk to Satan? Why not? They are not enemies, they are basically co-workers. Satan was working for God, then got promoted, handed his own territory and made a boss. Their divisions are different, but their ultimate jobs seem to be the same, sorting out good from evil.

But that is just my opinion. And it is a fairy tale anyway.

Why would Satan torture people for being like him? I don't think he's a bad guy, I think everyone else wants us to think that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Satanist because, you know, no one is better than anyone else really. He just seems like a cool guy.

No, bad things happened to Job because God said "sure, Lucifer, go ahead, do bad things to him, it is OK by me... and why don't we lay a side bet on it too?" If the bad things had merely happened because bad things DO happen sometimes, it would be a much less troublesome story. The whole testing of faith thing smacks of excessively abusive behavior, and Job is like an abused spouse who keeps saying "He doesn't mean to hurt me, he really loves me." Sad, sick and a really terrible message. It is basically a story that says that believers should be spineless dogs who lick the hand that beats them in hopes of a treat somewhere down the line.

In a way, I see Satan as the hero of the piece, trying to show Job that his God was not such a wonderful fellow as all that. Unfortunately he was unsuccessful. At any point, Job could (and should) have stood up for himself and said "Cut it the hell out, God. Stop abusing me. This is NOT how civilized creatures behave!", which would have stopped the abuse, and made Job a free human, rather than a slave.

And why does God talk to Satan? Why not? They are not enemies, they are basically co-workers. Satan was working for God, then got promoted, handed his own territory and made a boss. Their divisions are different, but their ultimate jobs seem to be the same, sorting out good from evil.

But that is just my opinion. And it is a fairy tale anyway.
Agreed I think this is always what troubled me about JOB … the parallel to an abused spouse … it just seems like a sick and depraved sort of love

So in order to prove the importance of faith, God takes away everything Job has built and kills his kills his kids, and that's like letting a child smoke to teach him a lesson about smoking? That's one fucked up analogy, no offense.

Death is not as bad as you may think. Frankly, the only people who worry about death are those that are alive. We see it as a horrible thing but it really isn't, life is the horrible thing. If you're an atheist, death is a black consciousness you aren't even aware of. You aren't around to think about whether it sucks or not. To a Christian, death is a perfect consciousness and the beginning of the end of suffering. Neither is particularly bad when compared to life.

Living on the other hand, is meaningful and enjoyable BECAUSE it sucks so much. In my personal experience we grow the most from the worst times in our life. The happy, content times? Meh. You don't learn a damn thing, there's no incentive to better yourself. It's the pain, stress, hardship, loss, and suffering that really defines who we become as people. You can choose if you will be damaged and scarred by your experiences or you can choose to better yourself and learn from them... Trials of all kinds, especially early in life, are opportunities to find your own personal truths; or, alternatively, to deceive yourself.

In this case, the comparison of God to a paternal figure allowing his "child" to suffer as a test of faith is very apt. God (whether or not you actually believe in him) does not spare us from our hardship and he certainly doesn't save us from ourselves. He is merely there to guide you, to give direction and understanding if you seek it out. He does this not through a book, but through our consciousness and our reason. The book is just the result of someone else's consciousness.

I studied the OT, including the Book of Job, in its original Hebrew. I'm not Christian, but I hope to clarify a few issues.

They talk like old friends and also Satan is in God presence, Yet was he not banished? Forced to live away from God, then why is he seen here casually talking to God? Im christian btw but i found this very interesting since it shows some insight into Gods relationship with Satan, Even after he was banished.
The angel in question is not named (in the original Hebrew) "Satan" or any other name. He is referred to as "ha-Satan," a word that means in English "the Prosecutor." This angel, rather than being Evil or an Oponent of God, is merely a Counsel for the Prosecution, employed in the Heavenly Court for the job of arguing against he humans being Judged by God.

Now, me, being an atheist, really hates the book of Job for the following reasons:

1. It demonstrates the callousness of God, by having him treat Job like a plaything, doing more and more rotten things to him, just to see if he will snap.
It doesnt encourage me to be faithful, it makes me think God is a dickhead.
&
It of course casts a shadow on the Jewish god that through Satan he puts people into trouble just to see how they cope with it.

What you seem to fail to understand is that this story demonstrates how we cannot attempt to guess God's reasons for doing things. Job's friends accused Job of being Sinful, while he adamntly insisted on being Righteous. They both assumed there is no Punishment without a Sin.
The actual reason given by the storyteller for God's treating Job in this way is but an example. It was plausible for his original readers or listeners, as they believed that all Humans are, indeed, God's subjects, existing solely for the purpose of serving Him. If He decides that I'd serve Him best by suffering, martyrdom etc. – it is my duty to Him who gave me Life and everything else to allow Him to take back any of it He deems right.

Rather than trying to convince atheists to believe, this is meant as a topic for believers to study and ponder. Of course, it leaves lots of questions inanswered. But I won't go into this here.

2. Basically, God allows Job to be robbed of everything he ever held dear. His family, his livelyhood, and his health...all to prove some silly arguement.
Have you actually read Job, specifically verses 42:10-17? Rather than leaving Job robbed of "everything he held dear," God restores back his family, his possesions and health, all in the double. Please read the actual stuff before you bash it.

wah it's a parable?! whatever happened to that bible thing being the literal truth? or is it like Revelations, it's ok to inteprate it symbolically because it clearly doesn't make any sense?[/QUOTE[
Well, Talmudic Sages have bitetrly debated this issue in babylon some 1000+ years ago. Some argued that since it's in the Bible, and it clearly says "Once upon a time, there was in the land of Oz a man, and his name was Job," then this must have actually happened.
But nobody ever heard of an actual land named Oz. And none of the people mentioned are known from other sources, Biblical or other.
So one of the Talmudic Sages concludes that this is, in fact, only a Parable.

(I'm not inventing this. In case you have access to the Talmud, look up Tractate Bava Batra, page 15a).

[QUOTE=Phenixica;11711732]It was more intended for the Christian/Jewish members but everytime i start a thread it's nothing but Atheist (no offence, seriously).
In case you haven't realised it, Insequa posted the Jewish position on this subject.
And NS isn't really the place for ANY serious discussion. People come her to roleplay and have fun. You want a serious theological discussion, try, for instance, channel #israel on Efnet, IRC. Of course we have there our fair share of Atheists, Trolls and Religion-bashers, but some of the channel regulars are actually American Christians, and others are Jews with varying degrees of Theological/Biblical knowledge.

What I would like to know is when Lucifer fell from heaven. I dont think that there is even that much talk about it in the bible. So where do the stories of his fall came from?[/QUOTE[
Neither Lucifer nor his falling from Heaven are actually mentioned in the Bible, at least not in the OT.
Genesis 6:4 does have an obscure mention of "the Nefillim," which may have been interpreted by Christians as referring to Lucifer. But this is no more than far-fetched exegesis.

[QUOTE=UpwardThrust;11712224]So god is constantly sheltering us from bad things? Everyone or just the believers? If everyone why did he invent such a flawed world in which he would constantly have to protect us from anyways?[/QUOTE[
This is a very good question, raised time and again by many Believers and non-Believers alike. There are many possible answers, but I won't go into any of them here as it's beyond the scope of this Bulletin Board.

[QUOTE=Upper Botswavia;11712230] In a way, I see Satan as the hero of the piece, trying to show Job that his God was not such a wonderful fellow as all that. Unfortunately he was unsuccessful. At any point, Job could (and should) have stood up for himself and said "Cut it the hell out, God. Stop abusing me. This is NOT how civilized creatures behave!", which would have stopped the abuse, and made Job a free human, rather than a slave.
You seem to have skipped almost the entire book, reading only the preface. What was Job doing throughout the book, if not asking God why He was mistreating him?
However, in the end God seems to have given him an answer that was satisfactory to him.

So god is constantly sheltering us from bad things? Everyone or just the believers? If everyone why did he invent such a flawed world in which he would constantly have to protect us from anyways?

Because God is a spiritual Stalin.

It is like the old story of Stalin explaining to two men how to rule.
He gave the two men birds to represent the people.

The first man did not hold on to his tight enough so it managed to brake free and escape.
The second held it too tight as it struggled and crushed it.

Stalin held it by the feet and plucked every feather out one by one. Then he loosened his grip and said “See how the bird is now thankful for the warmth of my hand”.


God wants to treat everyone like shit and torture the people, such that they have to kiss his boots in a desperate clinging to some sort of hope of an afterlife.

A truly loving father would not want his children to suffer – any religion based on ‘suffering is good’ is sick and twisted.

Job is both one of the best books and one of the most dangerous books in the Bible. I come from a Jewish religion and understand the Bible to be quasi sacred at best and mostly a book of Wisdom and History. From that perspective I think Job is one of the best books because it is easily identifiable as a book of wisdom (i.e. a story with a good moral to it) that encourages us to have faith in the Lord despite the fact that we see good people suffer. Also I like the part where the friends of Job come and see Job and instead of opening up their pieholes they just hang out with him in sad silence. I think we could all learn a lesson there in how to comfort the grieving.

I think Job is the most dangerous when it is (mis?)interpreted to be a sacred account of what really happened. The major problem with this that comes to mind is that Job is often cited for the position that God is anti-abortion because there is language in it about the Lord knowing babies when they are still in the womb or something.

I think another problem with it is the idea that good things ultimately happen to Job because he was a righteous man. I probably differ from a lot of Jews in that I think this is a bunch of garbage. Good ultimately tends to win out over evil but to think that this happens in the lives of people is sort of wierd when you think about all the innocent folks that die or have all sorts of horrible things happen to them.

So in order to prove the importance of faith, God takes away everything Job has built and kills his kills his kids, and that's like letting a child smoke to teach him a lesson about smoking? That's one fucked up analogy, no offense.

God doesn't do any evil things, he allows them to be done, since he understands the greater good that will come from allowing these things to happen.
Also, Job had previously resigned himself to God's will so had effectively given God permission.

God doesn't do any evil things, he allows them to be done, since he understands the greater good that will come from allowing these things to happen.
Also, Job had previously resigned himself to God's will so had effectively given God permission.

No god does not just "Allow it to happen" he actively encourages the "Devil" to use his power to prove the bet as long as he does not touch Job himself.

That’s not letting natural evils happen that’s like hiring a gunman to kill your spouse. You may not have done anything but he encouraged and sanctioned it.

I like the book of Job. I like the idea that God and Satan are friends and have bets and play tricks on eachother. God may have won thet bet but he got tricked like a big fat retard.

No god does not just "Allow it to happen" he actively encourages the "Devil" to use his power to prove the bet as long as he does not touch Job himself.

That’s not letting natural evils happen that’s like hiring a gunman to kill your spouse. You may not have done anything but he encouraged and sanctioned it.

The way it is phrases in the book of Job all the good things that Job had came from God and God gave permission to Satan to take them away.

It might sound different depending on translation. I use the Douay-Rheims translation because I believe it to be the most accurate English translation.

The way it is phrases in the book of Job all the good things that Job had came from God and God gave permission to Satan to take them away.

It might sound different depending on translation. I use the Douay-Rheims translation because I believe it to be the most accurate English translation.

In this case I am using the revised standard … but even so actively allowing someone to come to harm when you can prevent it.

Not only that but fingering the man for Satan to abuse is an ass hat thing to do

In this case I am using the revised standard … but even so actively allowing someone to come to harm when you can prevent it.

Not only that but fingering the man for Satan to abuse is an ass hat thing to do

Satan was the one who singled him out, because he was such a good guy.

The important thing is the message to take away. To endure suffering, that the human relationship with God isn't instrumental exchange, it should be true worship and ideally love.

I'm ok with the book of Job because in my perspective worshipping a god because it will give you something back in exchange and no other reason is preposterous. In my eyes God is doing good by giving us any good things at any time because I don't see him as owing anyone anything. It's just the perspective you go into it with. If you're thinking "man this guy Job is going to get his ass handed to him" you can read it that way. Or, you can admire Job's perseverence through suffering that all people experience as part of our Earthly nature.

Satan was the one who singled him out, because he was such a good guy.

The important thing is the message to take away. To endure suffering, that the human relationship with God isn't instrumental exchange, it should be true worship and ideally love.

I'm ok with the book of Job because in my perspective worshipping a god because it will give you something back in exchange and no other reason is preposterous. In my eyes God is doing good by giving us any good things at any time because I don't see him as owing anyone anything. It's just the perspective you go into it with. If you're thinking "man this guy Job is going to get his ass handed to him" you can read it that way. Or, you can admire Job's perseverence through suffering that all people experience as part of our Earthly nature.
7: The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."
8: And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"

Sounds like god pointed him out by bragging him up to me

Im just wondering if anybody has noticed how God and Satan talk to eachother during this book in the bible?

They talk like old friends and also Satan is in God presence, Yet was he not banished? Forced to live away from God, then why is he seen here casually talking to God?

Im christian btw but i found this very interesting since it shows some insight into Gods relationship with Satan, Even after he was banished.
Now you're just validating the Satanic Verses... careful, the Radical Islamic Extremists hordes will now hunt you down.

kills his kids.

That's the bit I always hated. OK, God decides to screw about with Job. I don't accept that but theres shit all i can do about it. the bit i hate is he kills his kids and wife?

WHY THE FUCK?


The Nazz, your a goddam genius

Yo, Job. Check it. Why don't you get down and suck my dick?

"Um, no, please."

What, bitch? I'll kill all your family and friends and cows and shit, bitch!

No, bad things happened to Job because God said "sure, Lucifer, go ahead, do bad things to him, it is OK by me... and why don't we lay a side bet on it too?" If the bad things had merely happened because bad things DO happen sometimes, it would be a much less troublesome story. The whole testing of faith thing smacks of excessively abusive behavior, and Job is like an abused spouse who keeps saying "He doesn't mean to hurt me, he really loves me." Sad, sick and a really terrible message. It is basically a story that says that believers should be spineless dogs who lick the hand that beats them in hopes of a treat somewhere down the line.

In a way, I see Satan as the hero of the piece, trying to show Job that his God was not such a wonderful fellow as all that. Unfortunately he was unsuccessful. At any point, Job could (and should) have stood up for himself and said "Cut it the hell out, God. Stop abusing me. This is NOT how civilized creatures behave!", which would have stopped the abuse, and made Job a free human, rather than a slave.

And why does God talk to Satan? Why not? They are not enemies, they are basically co-workers. Satan was working for God, then got promoted, handed his own territory and made a boss. Their divisions are different, but their ultimate jobs seem to be the same, sorting out good from evil.

But that is just my opinion. And it is a fairy tale anyway.

I always hated this book but now that you point it out, its sick on so many levels.

Yo, Job. Check it. Why don't you get down and suck my dick?

"Um, no, please."

What, bitch? I'll kill all your family and friends and cows and shit, bitch!

I pointed out how dumb this book is to my RE teacher and asked 'If god is so loving, why would he torture a dude that has nothing but respect for him?'
Her answer: 'He didn't, he let the devil do it'


That makes no sense, hes like LOL I HATE T3H DEVFIL I WIL DESTOROY.
Devil: hey dude wanna have some fun?
God: LOL KK

I know that sounds so anti-christian but I am one, I just hate the book of Job.

NOW BACK ON TOPIC

Basically misunderstanding of this book comes from a basic misunderstanding of Judeo-Christian thought. The idea is that men sin...every man no matter who he is. Job is a good guy, but he is still a man. The world was corrupted by men therefore we have no right to complain about the bad things that happen in the world because, hey, we corrupted it. From that perspective we should look at Job like this...

Job is protected from the world that he, because he is a man, corrupted.
God takes away the protection to prove that Job's faith in Him is real.

If you take the book out of the context of the Bible then you will say that God was cruel and whatnot, but if you look at it from Judeo-Christian thought then you will at least get close to understanding it.

Basically misunderstanding of this book comes from a basic misunderstanding of Judeo-Christian thought. The idea is that men sin...every man no matter who he is. Job is a good guy, but he is still a man. The world was corrupted by men therefore we have no right to complain about the bad things that happen in the world because, hey, we corrupted it. From that perspective we should look at Job like this...

Job is protected from the world that he, because he is a man, corrupted.
God takes away the protection to prove that Job's faith in Him is real.

If you take the book out of the context of the Bible then you will say that God was cruel and whatnot, but if you look at it from Judeo-Christian thought then you will at least get close to understanding it.

No god did not just take away his protection … (why would god create a world that he would actively have to protect everyone against anyways?) God bragged up his servant Job to the devil pointing him out then knowingly let a very very bad entity do what he wanted with Job as long as he is not killed

It does not matter if the subject of the punishment is good or bad, sinner or not.

If another human pointed out a guy and bet that someone else could not make him scream for mercy and sat by while the bad person tortured the victim when it was within his power to stop him. It would not matter to me if the victim was a good or a bad person, the person who stood by would still be an asshat

Basically misunderstanding of this book comes from a basic misunderstanding of Judeo-Christian thought. The idea is that men sin...every man no matter who he is. Job is a good guy, but he is still a man. The world was corrupted by men therefore we have no right to complain about the bad things that happen in the world because, hey, we corrupted it. From that perspective we should look at Job like this...

Job is protected from the world that he, because he is a man, corrupted.
God takes away the protection to prove that Job's faith in Him is real.

If you take the book out of the context of the Bible then you will say that God was cruel and whatnot, but if you look at it from Judeo-Christian thought then you will at least get close to understanding it.

Yes

No god did not just take away his protection … (why would god create a world that he would actively have to protect everyone against anyways?) God bragged up his servant Job to the devil pointing him out then knowingly let a very very bad entity do what he wanted with Job as long as he is not killed

It does not matter if the subject of the punishment is good or bad, sinner or not.

If another human pointed out a guy and bet that someone else could not make him scream for mercy and sat by while the bad person tortured the victim when it was within his power to stop him. It would not matter to me if the victim was a good or a bad person, the person who stood by would still be an asshatOnce again you must look at this in perspective. If indeed people have chosen to rebel against God and corrupted the earth, then protection from God is NOT deserved nor is it just. Therefore by allowing Job to receive the consequences of being a man, God was being just and fair.

PS. If you read the rest of the Bible you would see that God created a perfect world and man corrupted it.

Once again you must look at this in perspective. If indeed people have chosen to rebel against God and corrupted the earth, then protection from God is NOT deserved nor is it just. Therefore by allowing Job to receive the consequences of being a man, God was being just and fair.

PS. If you read the rest of the Bible you would see that God created a perfect world and man corrupted it.

And god actively chose to stop protection that he is able to provide on a bet … not just protection against the normal evils but the evils he brought on by pointing Job out to the devil
Would you feel the same if a doctor choose to not provide you care on a bet … he is just letting the evils of this world to take its course.

That fact sort of gives more support to my belief that God and Satan are not "good" or "evil," just two opposite sides. Sort of like Charles and Erik from X-Men. *g*

And god actively chose to stop protection that he is able to provide on a bet … not just protection against the normal evils but the evils he brought on by pointing Job out to the devil
Would you feel the same if a doctor choose to not provide you care on a bet … he is just letting the evils of this world to take its course.

True, it was on a bet. The reward for Job was also eternal rather than temporary. The protection was lost on earth, but he learned a lesson that had eternal benefits. If you choose to ignore the other teachings of the Bible then this story will obviously not make sense in your world view.

What you seem to fail to understand is that this story demonstrates how we cannot attempt to guess God's reasons for doing things. Job's friends accused Job of being Sinful, while he adamntly insisted on being Righteous. They both assumed there is no Punishment without a Sin.
The actual reason given by the storyteller for God's treating Job in this way is but an example. It was plausible for his original readers or listeners, as they believed that all Humans are, indeed, God's subjects, existing solely for the purpose of serving Him. If He decides that I'd serve Him best by suffering, martyrdom etc. – it is my duty to Him who gave me Life and everything else to allow Him to take back any of it He deems right.

I do not care what the story allegedly demonstrates about the fabricated Jewish god. And whatever reason can be assumed for the need- and purposeless suffering of a human, such a treatment is morally wrong, no matter who conducts it. It does nor even matter it the story is authentic or not, it nevertheless shows what Jews project in their god and what they deem acceptable behavior.
If this god wants to play experiments he sould seek out someone of his own species for it. A human is no-one's property, not even a god's.
And who do you claim were the original readers or listeners?

Im just wondering if anybody has noticed how God and Satan talk to eachother during this book in the bible?

They talk like old friends and also Satan is in God presence, Yet was he not banished? Forced to live away from God, then why is he seen here casually talking to God?

Im christian btw but i found this very interesting since it shows some insight into Gods relationship with Satan, Even after he was banished.

When you understand the true nature of God and the devil this makes more sense. John speaks of a dragon (satan) falling from heaven and drawing away a third of the stars (or spirit children of God, of which he was one) with him. (see Revelation 12: 3-4, 7, 9, 13, 16-17 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/12/3-4,7,9,13,16-17#3), see also Isaiah 14:12-20 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/14/12-20#12))

Satan is a spirit son of God, as are we. He rebelled against God in the beginning before man came upon the earth, and a third of the hosts of heaven, our spirit brothers and sisters, rebelled with him and were cast down with him. Satan cannot go where God is, but God can go where he is. You will recall that the evil spirits that possessed the maniac in Jesus's time were not imeadiately banished when the Saviour turned his attention on them, but were banished only after the Saviour commanded them to come out of the man (see Matthew 8:29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/8/29#29)). Therefor if God did not command Satan to depart, then he could abide the presence of God, because he is a spirit and spirit cannot be destroyed. Our frail physical bodies (before the resurection anyway) cannot abide the presence of God, except his spirit (or the Holy Ghost) should over shadow us and protect us from his glory.

I believe the story of Job to be a true story. Though there may be some parts that have been mistranslated in a rather confusing manner.

When you understand the true nature of God and the devil this makes more sense. John speaks of a dragon (satan) falling from heaven and drawing away a third of the stars (or spirit children of God, of which he was one) with him. (see Revelation 12: 3-4, 7, 9, 13, 16-17 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/12/3-4,7,9,13,16-17#3), see also Isaiah 14:12-20 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/14/12-20#12))

Satan is a spirit son of God, as are we. He rebelled against God in the beginning before man came upon the earth, and a third of the hosts of heaven, our spirit brothers and sisters, rebelled with him and were cast down with him. Satan cannot go where God is, but God can go where he is. You will recall that the evil spirits that possessed the maniac in Jesus's time were not imeadiately banished when the Saviour turned his attention on them, but were banished only after the Saviour commanded them to come out of the man (see Matthew 8:29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/8/29#29)). Therefor if God did not command Satan to depart, then he could abide the presence of God, because he is a spirit and spirit cannot be destroyed. Our frail physical bodies (before the resurection anyway) cannot abide the presence of God, except his spirit (or the Holy Ghost) should over shadow us and protect us from his glory.

I believe the story of Job to be a true story. Though there may be some parts that have been mistranslated in a rather confusing manner.

Mormon?

Mormon?

Mor(m)on?

Mor(m)on?

now that's just not nice. I once (by accident I assure you) changed the LDS to LSD......I so wish that you had been around for that, you should have seen the crap that got me.

I do not care what the story allegedly demonstrates about the fabricated Jewish god. And whatever reason can be assumed for the need- and purposeless suffering of a human, such a treatment is morally wrong, no matter who conducts it.

If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of dhell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenents 122:5-8)

When we are called to suffer it teaches us, it helps us to become more like God, and it helps us to understand, in part, the suffering Christ endured for our sake. When you look at it that way, suffering is a blessing, because we grow and become more than we were by going through it.

Did not the Savior say that if any man would follow him, let him take up his cross and follow after him? (see Mark 8:34 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mark/8/34#34))

now that's just not nice. I once (by accident I assure you) changed the LDS to LSD......I so wish that you had been around for that, you should have seen the crap that got me.

Don't worry, I'm rather hard to offend. But I thank you for comming to my defense. :)

Don't worry, I'm rather hard to offend. But I thank you for comming to my defense. :)

I would really like to start a thred about Momonism in a few days, you promise to show up, I have some really good non-flamey questions, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

y'all would like the book of job much better if you stopped thinking that its a story about something that actually happened to someone.

the book of job is a discussion of "why bad things happen to good people" and NO, the answer is not "because god has a bad gambling habit that is exploited by satan"

now that's just not nice. I once (by accident I assure you) changed the LDS to LSD......I so wish that you had been around for that, you should have seen the crap that got me.

Like Kirk changed LSD to LDS in "The Voyage Home" ? :eek: :D

Nevermind, Mormons are just dirt.

y'all would like the book of job much better if you stopped thinking that its a story about something that actually happened to someone.

the book of job is a discussion of "why bad things happen to good people" and NO, the answer is not "because god has a bad gambling habit that is exploited by satan"

I always tend to look at it as a "how to react when life is kicking your ass" story.

I always tend to look at it as a "how to react when life is kicking your ass" story.

endure the pain until you cant take it anymore and then rant at god for doing you wrong?

endure the pain until you cant take it anymore and then rant at god for doing you wrong?

he was mostly faithful through it. He did a lot better than say.....Jonah

I always tend to look at it as a "how to react when life is kicking your ass" story.

By fearing god ... that is the language that they used ... its not a be faithfull cause you want to story the wording is a be faithfull because whatever happens god can still do worse

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

he was mostly faithful through it. He did a lot better than say.....Jonah

lol

jonah WAS finally persuaded to do the right thing.


but no, job is about why bad things happen to good people. job is the best, most faithful of believers and terrible things happen to him. his friends wonder if he isnt a closet sinner but NO. in the end, he rants at god for his troubles and god puts him in his place with a "what the fuck do YOU know about what it takes to run the universe" speech.

what it definitely isnt is a true story of how god screws people at whim. its not based on a true story nor is it meant to suggest that god and satan sit around betting on who can take the most pain before cursing god.

lol

jonah WAS finally persuaded to do the right thing.

did you read the part after he goes to Nineveh?
you know the part where he waits for the city to destruct and whines the whole time about stuff and bitches and whines and whines?

Im just wondering if anybody has noticed how God and Satan talk to eachother during this book in the bible?

They talk like old friends and also Satan is in God presence, Yet was he not banished? Forced to live away from God, then why is he seen here casually talking to God?

Im christian btw but i found this very interesting since it shows some insight into Gods relationship with Satan, Even after he was banished.

The idea of 'Satan' as an opponent of God, didn't turn up until the Greek scriptures, several hundred years after Job was written.

Satan is the adversary, that is what it means - but he was not the adversary of God... he was the adversary of man. (Worth noting also, Satan is not the name of any given angel or any other being... it is a 'job description').

The book of Job is the description of a trial of a man, a test of faith. God is the judge, 'Satan' the prosecutor, and Job defends himself.

Is this a cruel action? One should remember that, in the Hebrew scripture as it was written, God was considered the root of all... both the good AND the bad. The idolatrous idea of Satan as some kind of demi-god in opposition to God, was not in the original theology. A casual glance through the scripture shows references to 'evil spirits from god', for example... and god 'harden hearts' a number of times.

One of the reasons it is so hard to reconcile modern understanding of the Greek scripture with the Hebrew scripture, is this gap between the 'goody-goody' God of the New Testament, and the 'sum of all things' God of the Old.

did you read the part after he goes to Nineveh?
you know the part where he waits for the city to destruct and whines the whole time about stuff and bitches and whines and whines?

Jonah posts on NS General, right?

...a test of faith.

Very curious for a deity allegedly knowing the minds of people.

Very curious for a deity allegedly knowing the minds of people.

But, the test is not for God's benefit, now, is it?

But, the test is not for God's benefit, now, is it?

And? Rather for entertainment?

Very curious for a deity allegedly knowing the minds of people.

maybe the test isn't to prove anything to Him....

I don't look at God testing my faith as Him trying to figure out how faithful I am, but Him trying to show me how faithful I can be.

And? Rather for entertainment?

More of an object lesson, I suspect.

More of an object lesson, I suspect.

A lesson in divine abuse of a human?

maybe the test isn't to prove anything to Him....

I don't look at God testing my faith as Him trying to figure out how faithful I am, but Him trying to show me how faithful I can be.

I would not want to take that test if to determine my results my family had to die I had to be diseased and my whole life ruined.

On the surface, God taking away all of Job's stuff just to prove a point to Satan kind of makes him look like an arrogant jerk who's interested in things that don't matter. He's God, after all. What the hell does he care what Satan thinks? It's a little like if Mao Tse-Tung had publicly robbed, tortured, and exiled civilians for no other reason than to prove a point to Chiang Kai-shek. Chaing lost. Mao won. Satan lost. God won. Why the hell do either of the victors feel the need to prove anything to the losers? Rather, God would have been better off not letting Satan bother Him. Satan was just trying to stir some shit, and God let Satan get to Him. I was a lot happier not thinking of God as a short-tempered asshole with the patience of Darth Vader.

Though somewhere in the Bible, if God is Darth Vader, He should have come down during the trial of Jesus and declared, for all to hear, "Jeeeeee-sus, I am your faaaaa-ther. **insert mechanized breathing here**" I am so going to hell for posting this.

Also, when I clicked on this thread this time, I looked up at the title "the book of Job" and thought it said "the boob job." I imagine this thread would have over a thosuand replies by now if it were really about a boob job. Or maybe none at all.

I would not want to take that test if to determine my results my family had to die I had to be diseased and my whole life ruined.

I don't think we get to choose.

I am so going to hell for posting this.

No, you're not. But the funeral director will loan your body for 500 dollars to a group of necrophiliacs the day before the viewing.

maybe the test isn't to prove anything to Him....

I don't look at God testing my faith as Him trying to figure out how faithful I am, but Him trying to show me how faithful I can be.

Actually Iob deserved the treatment for being so dumbass devout.

No, you're not. But the funeral director will loan your body for 500 dollars to a group of necrophiliacs the day before the viewing.

Damnit, I wanted to be a discount pinata...wait a minute, my fiancee wants to be a funeral director. Stop giving her ideas.

Actually Iob deserved the treatment for being so dumbass devout.

really?

devoutness deserving of punishment?

I am glad you aren't God.

A lesson in divine abuse of a human?

No - a lesson in the power of faith, and in potential.

Also - it might be worth bearing in mind, if you consider God to be everything... abuse of a human is a ridiculous concept. The equivalent of lamenting the 'persecution' of muscle-cells when you work-out to train your body.

really?

devoutness deserving of punishment?

I am glad you aren't God.

Just as the faked biblical dude isn't.

And yes, not using the brains (which devoutness means) is extremely deserving of punishment.

Just as the faked biblical dude isn't.

And yes, not using the brains (which devoutness means) is extremely deserving of punishment.

all devout people are brainless?

all devout people are brainless?

Almost.

Almost.

why?

why?

Because they were raised or chose to be thus. The latter of which is worse of course.

Because they were raised or chose to be thus. The latter of which is worse of course.

but why is being devout bad?

I was raised to clean up my room, my children choose to clean theirs, but that doesn't explain why cleaning their room is good or bad.

really?

devoutness deserving of punishment?

I am glad you aren't God.

While I am not quite in agreement with the poster the idea of being DEVOUT is putting that faith above all other input.

As such I do not … um favor people who are actually devout and let that FAITH overrule reality … and I have met plenty

Now depending on your choice devout has a harsher or a softer edge to it … I don’t mean all those with faith. Just those with faith that they let over rule their god given reasoning ability.

And yes, not using the brains (which devoutness means) is extremely deserving of punishment.
.

I'll be back after a few beers....

but why is being devout bad?

I was raised to clean up my room, my children choose to clean theirs, but that doesn't explain why cleaning their room is good or bad.

But some people take it to a higher degree … not just cleaning your room when they have time but cleaning it obsessively (sorry the analogy is hard to come up with parallels for some reason today) and they let cleaning their room cause determent to other parts of their life … either in an excessive amount of time spent or opportunities missed.

The act itself is not bad carrying it too far is … at least in my opinion

I am perfectly content with people that believe in the grey areas about life and death or any other non answered or un answerable. But when people start letting faith have determent to reason or reality (Example Creationists or Abstinence only promoters) I have very little patience for those sorts of people

Because they were raised or chose to be thus. The latter of which is worse of course.

You speak with such authority... some might call this attitude you strike 'devout'...

You speak with such authority... some might call this attitude you strike 'devout'...

shh.....you ruined my trap.

You seem to have skipped almost the entire book, reading only the preface. What was Job doing throughout the book, if not asking God why He was mistreating him?
However, in the end God seems to have given him an answer that was satisfactory to him.

But did Job ever walk away and say "No more, I am done with you."? If an abused spouse were to say "Why are you doing this?" only to have the abuser heap on MORE abuse, would you advise that person stick around and be faithful, or get the hell out of the relationship? And in the middle of the book, his friends try to convince Job that it is HIS fault... and they are seen as good friends for doing so! Then God comes along and says "Stop whining! I can do anything I want! Who are you to question me?" Did Job ever get out, or did he merely whine about it until God stopped playing his sadistic games, having proved that Job would take it and NOT leave?

Yes, in the end, God gave him all his stuff back, and gave him 10 more children to replace the ones God killed (and that makes it all ok, right?). Well, he would HAVE to do that, or anyone reading the story would say "WTF?", don't you think? If God is going to be the GOOD guy in all this, he has to hand out prizes in the end, but that does not make his behavior during the story any less reprehensible.

shh.....you ruined my trap.

Nah... I just sprang it. :)

But did Job ever walk away and say "No more, I am done with you."? If an abused spouse were to say "Why are you doing this?" only to have the abuser heap on MORE abuse, would you advise that person stick around and be faithful, or get the hell out of the relationship? And in the middle of the book, his friends try to convince Job that it is HIS fault... and they are seen as good friends for doing so! Then God comes along and says "Stop whining! I can do anything I want! Who are you to question me?"

That is not how it happens at all. Job's friends say that obviously bad things must happen to bad people. And he says he didn't do anything bad and they continue to insist that he must have, because bad things only happen to bad people.
Then God comes and tells Job to be humble but he also clearly is rebuking the people who were badmouthing Job and goes on about how no man can know what God knows so men shouldn't make assumptions about why God allows things to happen.

I would really like to start a thred about Momonism in a few days, you promise to show up, I have some really good non-flamey questions, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

Cool. I don't usually get online durring the weekends, but if you start one on monday I'll probably wander through when I have time. I comment on most threads that have honest inquiries into religion (and ignore the "I hate God/religion" threads).

Cool. I don't usually get online durring the weekends, but if you start one on monday I'll probably wander through when I have time. I comment on most threads that have honest inquiries into religion (and ignore the "I hate God/religion" threads).

I will start it on Monday just for you. ;)

I don't do the "I hate God/religion" threads so you don't have to worry about that.

but why is being devout bad?

As I said, being devout means to rarely question what you believe and remain in a self-preserving one-dimensional way of thinking about yourself, the world and a possible god. To assume certainty where there is none. Ultimately to create your own world inside your mind that has no connection to reality. Some people claim that their god is doing everything for them or is the reason why anything happens, they practically stop living their own lives and become mental slaves to a faith, a religion, a church, or a community. But faith only means to think and/or act as if, and it has nothing at all to do with what or who one has faith in.
And most folks who are devout in their faith do not even know or consider the alternatives.
.

As I said, being devout means to rarely question what you believe and remain in a self-preserving one-dimensional way of thinking about yourself, the world and a possible god. To assume certainty where there is none. Ultimately to create your own world inside your mind that has no connection to reality. Some people claim that their god is doing everything for them or is the reason why anything happens, they practically stop living their own lives and become mental slaves to a faith, a religion, a church, or a community. But faith only means to think and/or act as if, and it has nothing at all to do with what or who one has faith in.
And most folks who are devout in their faith do not even know or consider the alternatives.
.

I consider 'devout believers' to actually put their religious beliefs into practice in their everday lives. Currently the fashion seems to be somehow vaugely affiliated with some religion and only follow its tennents when they are convenient.

I consider 'devout believers' to actually put their religious beliefs into practice in their everday lives.

Who?

being a diehard atheist... i find the book of job ok. its fine to take away someones possessions as a test of faith, he gets twice back.

What is not o-bastard-k is killing the guys family.

(God says) IT MATTERS NOT, I SHALL GIVE HIM TWICE AS MUCH.

So, say i killed a christians kids and wife t'would be fine as long as i replaced them.



no.

Who?

I don't understand what you're asking...maybe you could go into a little more detail?

So, say i killed a christians kids and wife t'would be fine as long as i replaced them.

no.

Exactly my thoughts. For the other possessions, ok, but killing and replacing people? No, sir.

(Although, of course, if you believe that death is only bad for the survivors (as I guess the wife and kids are supposed to get to heaven), things are a bit less bad - only that Iob will still be sad about the dead of his wife and children even if he has new ones)

He is like a father willing to let their child put a cigarrette butt in their mouth so that the kid will stop picking them up.

Rather like a father telling a drug dealer to give him drugs for free.

Here is a simple answer to all of the complex religious questions that are being asked in this topic. It's the end all answer to all your questions.

Nothing the Bible says is true in any sense because it is a collect of contradictory Hebrew Myths that got added on to a Death-Resurrection Cult that used a character called Jesus to tell their version of what the other Roman Mystery Cults were preaching for CENTURIES.

The only reason we are talking about Christianity today is because it was (among all those other Mystery Cults) the most successful in gaining converts. That is all.

Had, instead Mithraism been the one to gain more converts then we would be debating why Mithas had to kill the bull and how this related to the proper form of worshiping God.

The ultimate truth is that Christianity is no better (and in many ways worse) than any other religion that has ever existed on the face of this earth.

It's that simple.

I don't understand what you're asking...maybe you could go into a little more detail?

Who does this and how? Any examples?

Here is a simple answer to all of the complex religious questions that are being asked in this topic. It's the end all answer to all your questions.

Nothing the Bible says is true in any sense because it is a collect of contradictory Hebrew Myths that got added on to a Death-Resurrection Cult that used a character called Jesus to tell their version of what the other Roman Mystery Cults were preaching for CENTURIES.

The only reason we are talking about Christianity today is because it was (among all those other Mystery Cults) the most successful in gaining converts. That is all.

Had, instead Mithraism been the one to gain more converts then we would be debating why Mithas had to kill the bull and how this related to the proper form of worshiping God.

The ultimate truth is that Christianity is no better (and in many ways worse) than any other religion that has ever existed on the face of this earth.

It's that simple.

The Bible is not a collection of contradictory Hebrew Myths, it is the vain attempt to transform the ancient religion of the Middle East into something innately Jewish. Hebrews had no different legends than any other Middle Eastern people and only when Jewish scholars much later (Persian and Ptolemaic era) were streamlining ancient texts and traditions to be consistent with their new ideology of monotheism the stories became somewhat contradictory.

being a diehard atheist... i find the book of job ok. its fine to take away someones possessions as a test of faith, he gets twice back.

What is not o-bastard-k is killing the guys family.

(God says) IT MATTERS NOT, I SHALL GIVE HIM TWICE AS MUCH.

So, say i killed a christians kids and wife t'would be fine as long as i replaced them.



no.

Like I said, they werent involved.