NationStates Jolt Archive

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a christian and Gd is Zeus, or if you're Jewish that God is Quetzalcoal.

Because Allah, Jesus, Yhwh are basically the same god and we are going for the total difference here and not just slight variation. Agreed?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a christian and Gd is Zeus, or if you're Jewish that God is Quetzalcoal.

Because Allah, Jesus, Yhwh are basically the same god and we are going for the total difference here and not just slight variation. Agreed?

Yea, sure, you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Well, for me, ANY God that approaches me in the street is going to be one of the gods I don't believe in, so no problem there. I would say "Excuse me, God, but you are standing in my way. Thanks, have a nice day" and continue what I was doing.

If it was the sort of God that would smite me for not worshipping it, it is not worthy of my attention, never mind my worship.

Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc. .

Those are funny examples. Allah is the selfsame deity as Yah/El that Jews and Christians believe in, just as Jesus is only an alleged incarnation of this deity. The difference is only in the interpretation.
It would be much more interesting if Yah and El both would come along together with all the other Sumerian gods.
.

Well, for me, ANY God that approaches me in the street is going to be one of the gods I don't believe in, so no problem there. I would say "Excuse me, God, but you are standing in my way. Thanks, have a nice day" and continue what I was doing.

If it was the sort of God that would smite me for not worshipping it, it is not worthy of my attention, never mind my worship.

So you would rather suffer eternel hell. Yeah great choice :rolleyes:

So you would rather suffer eternel hell. Yeah great choice :rolleyes:

There is no such place, so I am not worried about it.

Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah.
Do you know how Arab Christians call God?

Honey filled, tooth achingly sweet cookie for the right answer

There is no such place, so I am not worried about it.

Yes but in this hypothetical situation, he does exist. So therefor if you reject him hyppothetically you would go to hell.

I'd have a few questions for God, such as:

Is there such a thing as freewill or is my life predetermined?
Why all the suffering? Can't you do anything about that?
You a god? Then smith Bush with lightning! Go on, I'm waiting...

Do you know how Arab Christians call God?

Honey filled, tooth achingly sweet cookie for the right answer

Ok, ok, if your Christian, Jew, or Muslium you're met by Zeus, or Oldinn, and vice versa jeez. I think you people are getting the geist of what I am trying to say. No need to split hairs.

Well, for me, ANY God that approaches me in the street is going to be one of the gods I don't believe in, so no problem there. I would say "Excuse me, God, but you are standing in my way. Thanks, have a nice day" and continue what I was doing.

If it was the sort of God that would smite me for not worshipping it, it is not worthy of my attention, never mind my worship.
Agreed ... why would I worship something not deserving of it?

Haven't got time for a proper reply, but just so you know, Christian's don't think Jesus is God. They think he's the Lord and the Son of God.

Well, if the biblical god really exists, he must be something like Q. Perhaps omniscient and omnipotent but morally sinister in every aspect.

Akela;11702935']Haven't got time for a proper reply, but just so you know, Christian's don't think Jesus is God. They think he's the Lord and the Son of God.

So you skip the concept of trinity in Christianity?

Akela;11702935']Haven't got time for a proper reply, but just so you know, Christian's don't think Jesus is God. They think he's the Lord and the Son of God.

Ok If your Christian, you meet Zeus
Muslium get to meet Oldinn
Jews get to meet the Nature Gods of Wiccans

Pagans get to meet God.

There....

Yes but in this hypothetical situation, he does exist. So therefor if you reject him hyppothetically you would go to hell.

That doesn't necessarily follow, even hypothetically. Perhaps the hypothetical God who shows up is one of those who never created a hell.

But anyway, I refuse to give God that power over me. God doesn't decide what happens in my life (or death), I do.

And perhaps, if I don't BELIEVE in hell, that causes it not to exist. It has certainly worked so far with Gods, why shouldn't the same thing work with hell?

Well, if the biblical god really exists, he must be something like Q. Perhaps omniscient and omnipotent but morally sinister in every aspect.

I have heard this argument said many times, I just want to hear your reasoning of it.

I have heard this argument said many times, I just want to hear your reasoning of it.

You want a summary of the Bible? The biblical deity is a bag of shit.

I have heard this argument said many times, I just want to hear your reasoning of it.

Well an example maybe

What sort of suposedly loving being infinatly punishes his "children" for a limited and mortal mistake, without chanse of reprive.

You do know that Allah and God are the same thing right? Allah is God in arabic.:rolleyes:

That doesn't necessarily follow, even hypothetically. Perhaps the hypothetical God who shows up is one of those who never created a hell.

But anyway, I refuse to give God that power over me. God doesn't decide what happens in my life (or death), I do.

And perhaps, if I don't BELIEVE in hell, that causes it not to exist. It has certainly worked so far with Gods, why shouldn't the same thing work with hell?

The Christian God gave you the power to decide for yourself. He wouldn't force you into anything.

"if I don't BELIEVE in hell, that causes it not to exist"

How does that work?

Well an example maybe

What sort of suposedly loving being infinatly punishes his "children" for a limited and mortal mistake, without chanse of reprive.

We don't even know what God does to children when they die, he is the judge not us.

You do know that Allah and God are the same thing right? Allah is God in arabic.:rolleyes:

Several other people beat you to that, read the thread before posting.

Ok If your Christian, you meet Zeus
Muslium get to meet Oldinn
Jews get to meet the Nature Gods of Wiccans

Pagans get to meet God.

There....

Well, since you have set yourself up for nitpicking at this point... please don't take it the wrong way but pagans do believe in God (and your usage here leads me to think you are refering specifically to the Christian God)... in fact they believe in many gods, usually, but quite often the Christian God does show up somewhere in the back of the pack, being a relative newcomer in the god scene. They just don't think he is any more important than any one of the others in the pantheon... and, based on what his followers do, usually think he is less important.

The Christian God gave you the power to decide for yourself. He wouldn't force you into anything.

"if I don't BELIEVE in hell, that causes it not to exist"

How does that work?

The Christian God doesn't exist, so no, he didn't give me anything (but it is good of you to acknowledge that he is a hypothetical nice guy who wouldn't force things on me if he did).

Hell, being entirely an imaginary construct, doesn't exist for me if I don't believe in it, just as any God you might posit is also an imaginary construct and only exists if someone believes in it. And then only in the mind of the believer anyway.

So you would rather suffer eternel hell. Yeah great choice :rolleyes:

most gods did'nt have a hell... so unless its an abrahamic god, not particularly worried

Well, since you have set yourself up for nitpicking at this point... please don't take it the wrong way but pagans do believe in God (and your usage here leads me to think you are refering specifically to the Christian God)... in fact they believe in many gods, usually, but quite often the Christian God does show up somewhere in the back of the pack, being a relative newcomer in the god scene. They just don't think he is any more important than any one of the others in the pantheon... and, based on what his followers do, usually think he is less important.

*sigh* You know what I ment to say though, right? Please tell me you do.

The Christian God doesn't exist, so no, he didn't give me anything (but it is good of you to acknowledge that he is a hypothetical nice guy who wouldn't force things on me if he did).

Hell, being entirely an imaginary construct, doesn't exist for me if I don't believe in it, just as any God you might posit is also an imaginary construct and only exists if someone believes in it. And then only in the mind of the believer anyway.

Ok, listen carefully.

We are speaking completely H Y P O T H E T I C A L L Y. Weather you believe in God or not in reality, doesn't change the hypothetical situation!

Ok If your Christian, you meet Zeus
Muslium get to meet Oldinn
Jews get to meet the Nature Gods of Wiccans

Pagans get to meet God.

There....
After standing there in shocked silence for a bit, I'd probably ask one of these questions,

"Where were you all this time and how'd it come about that people think God/Allah/Other/None is God if you are?!?"

OR

"So am I right that reality is one big video game, and the reason that people believe in Yahweh as God now instead of you is because all you other gods got pwned?"

OR

"What? YOU'RE God? Then who the heck is Yahweh?!?"

*sigh* You know what I ment to say though, right? Please tell me you do.

I do.

snip

yeah i always loved that one.
God gave you choice.
believe in him and go to heaven
or don't believe in him and go to hell

The Christian God doesn't exist, so no, he didn't give me anything (but it is good of you to acknowledge that he is a hypothetical nice guy who wouldn't force things on me if he did).

Hell, being entirely an imaginary construct, doesn't exist for me if I don't believe in it, just as any God you might posit is also an imaginary construct and only exists if someone believes in it. And then only in the mind of the believer anyway.

Well, I would have to say you're right, if your pre-suppositions are correct. But if your presuppositions are wrong, then you are wrong whether you believe it or not.

Ok, listen carefully.

We are speaking completely H Y P O T H E T I C A L L Y. Weather you believe in God or not in reality, doesn't change the hypothetical situation!

And my ORIGINAL answer to the hypothetical situation was "I ask God to step aside, as he is standing in my way, and I continue down the street". So?

How could I worship something I don't love?

How could I worship something I don't love?

Worship out of fear of being smite?

How could I worship something I don't love?

I think many people in history worshipped something they didn't love because the alternative was death or punishment.

I'd be kind of angry at him, and kind of glad to see him. Regardless before I decide anything I'd have to sit and talk with him.


By the way I know god isn't a 'him', god is an 'it'. Unless god has sex or a set of chromosomes, it has no gender.

And my ORIGINAL answer to the hypothetical situation was "I ask God to step aside, as he is standing in my way, and I continue down the street". So?

And my original reply was that by doing that you were hypothetically choosing an eternity in hell for the sake of your pride.

However you decided that my reply was not hypothetical.

most gods did'nt have a hell... so unless its an abrahamic god, not particularly worried

Didn't Zeus have Hades (unless I'm getting Greeks & Romans mixed up)? Of course Zeus would be more likely to zap you with a lightning bolt than to send you to Hades, but either one would suck.

Also, wasn't Hades run by Pluto? If you got sent there, you could wind up in the Kuiper Belt, and that would REALLY suck! :D

I think many people in history worshipped something they didn't love because the alternative was death or punishment.

Many people in history are fucking dumbasses. :p

Well, I would have to say you're right, if your pre-suppositions are correct. But if your presuppositions are wrong, then you are wrong whether you believe it or not.

But functionally, while alive, it makes no difference if my presuppositions are correct or not. And after I am dead, whatever happens happens, but it has absolutely no effect on my life.

I think I would be an utter fool to live my life based on some supposed threat after I am dead. I am much better off, happier, well balanced and so on being who I am, taking responsibility for what I do, making the best choices I can make because I am responsible in my life, and not pushing my choices off on some fear of something that IS entirely hyopthetical anyway.

And if there is a God who doesn't appreciate that attitude... well, to hell with him, frankly. :)

Many people in history are fucking dumbasses. :p

Yes, that's probably true, but the ones that did so they wouldn't be punished or executed were really not so dumb I think.

Didn't Zeus have Hades (unless I'm getting Greeks & Romans mixed up)? Of course Zeus would be more likely to zap you with a lightning bolt than to send you to Hades, but either one would suck.

Also, wasn't Hades run by Pluto? If you got sent there, you could wind up in the Kuiper Belt, and that would REALLY suck! :D

but zeus did'nt send people there for not believing in him.

In the scenario I suppose my faith and future devotion to the randiom God which revreals it's existence and essence to me on the street hinges entirely upon my current God's willingness and ability to open up His Almighty Can of Whoopass upon the new God on my behalf. Being mortal and all I think it behooves me to stick with the winner.

Didn't Zeus have Hades (unless I'm getting Greeks & Romans mixed up)? Of course Zeus would be more likely to zap you with a lightning bolt than to send you to Hades, but either one would suck.

Also, wasn't Hades run by Pluto? If you got sent there, you could wind up in the Kuiper Belt, and that would REALLY suck! :D

Hades was the realm of the dead, good and bad alike. There was not special place for "good" people as far as I know.

Yes, that's probably true, but the ones that did so they wouldn't be punished or executed were really not so dumb I think.

I disagree.

How could I worship something I don't love?

Easy: hipocrisy.

Didn't Zeus have Hades (unless I'm getting Greeks & Romans mixed up)? Of course Zeus would be more likely to zap you with a lightning bolt than to send you to Hades, but either one would suck.

Also, wasn't Hades run by Pluto? If you got sent there, you could wind up in the Kuiper Belt, and that would REALLY suck! :D

A: Zeus was king of gods, but he wasn't the original god, so he doesn't have the power of the Christian god.

B: Hades was run by Hades. Pluto was a roman thing, I think, along with Jupiter being the equivalent of Zeus.

Hades was the realm of the dead, good and bad alike. There was not special place for "good" people as far as I know.

Yeah, everyone went to hell. Weird religion.

And my original reply was that by doing that you were hypothetically choosing an eternity in hell for the sake of your pride.

However you decided that my reply was not hypothetical.

Sigh... even in this hypothetical world, I still know that HELL is hypothetical. So I am still not going to believe in it, Gods blocking up the sidewalk not withstanding.

And how does pride enter into it? I wasn't proud, I was walking down the street. Hypothetical God got in my way, I asked him to move. How does this equal pride?

Easy: hipocrisy.

But is that worship, or toadying?

We don't even know what God does to children when they die, he is the judge not us.
By children I mean humans

But functionally, while alive, it makes no difference if my presuppositions are correct or not. And after I am dead, whatever happens happens, but it has absolutely no effect on my life.

I think I would be an utter fool to live my life based on some supposed threat after I am dead. I am much better off, happier, well balanced and so on being who I am, taking responsibility for what I do, making the best choices I can make because I am responsible in my life, and not pushing my choices off on some fear of something that IS entirely hyopthetical anyway.

And if there is a God who doesn't appreciate that attitude... well, to hell with him, frankly. :)

What if you don't need to (like many religions) completely change your life style in order to go to heaven as long as you acknowledge he is your God? Why would you make such an assumption?

Also, wouldn't you rather have a happy eternity and a not so happy human life then a happy human life then a horific eternity?

But is that worship, or toadying?

A little bit of both, I guess. I agree with your philosophy, I wanted to look like a smartarse.

Hades was the realm of the dead, good and bad alike. There was not special place for "good" people as far as I know.

Thanks. I'm not an expert on ancient myths.

A little bit of both, I guess. I agree with your philosophy, I wanted to look like a smartarse.

Halfway there. ;)

Yeah, everyone went to hell. Weird religion.

Actually, I was wrong. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades) It seems Hades was separated in the Elysian Fields (heaven) and Tartarus (hell). Also, there was five rivers (Archeron, Lethe and Styx being the most known.)

But functionally, while alive, it makes no difference if my presuppositions are correct or not. And after I am dead, whatever happens happens, but it has absolutely no effect on my life.

I think I would be an utter fool to live my life based on some supposed threat after I am dead. I am much better off, happier, well balanced and so on being who I am, taking responsibility for what I do, making the best choices I can make because I am responsible in my life, and not pushing my choices off on some fear of something that IS entirely hyopthetical anyway.

And if there is a God who doesn't appreciate that attitude... well, to hell with him, frankly. :)

Yea, I understand your position. And I also think there were some implied statements there that are incorrect as to how people of faith believe. I would argue, however, that we're all people of faith. Some have a certain amount of faith to believe God exists, while others have a certain amount of faith to believe God doesn't exist. The real argument should be who has more evidence for their conclusions. I don't think anyone will win the argument of absolute certainty when it comes to proofs. But everyone can reasonably base their beliefs on probability.

Halfway there. ;)

I'll take that as calling me smart. ;)

I'll take that as calling me smart. ;)

Okay. :)

A: Zeus was king of gods, but he wasn't the original god, so he doesn't have the power of the Christian god.

B: Hades was run by Hades. Pluto was a roman thing, I think, along with Jupiter being the equivalent of Zeus.

B: Yeah, I thought I might be getting Greeks and Romans mixed up. Their gods all look alike to me.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a christian and Gd is Zeus, or if you're Jewish that God is Quetzalcoal.

Because Allah, Jesus, Yhwh are basically the same god and we are going for the total difference here and not just slight variation. Agreed?

Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity. Therefore, they are not worshipping the same God.

There is no such place, so I am not worried about it.


Are you sure? If you are wrong ... what then?

Sigh... even in this hypothetical world, I still know that HELL is hypothetical. So I am still not going to believe in it, Gods blocking up the sidewalk not withstanding.


Are you saying that in this situation, you would be aware that it is all hypothetical and that you don't actually exist? How could that be possible? You would not be aware of your own non existance.


And how does pride enter into it? I wasn't proud, I was walking down the street. Hypothetical God got in my way, I asked him to move. How does this equal pride?

Because you would rather reject God then admit you are wrong (hypothetically)

I disagree.

That's alright. If I understand your position as death being a better alternative to bowing to whatever. I was just saying that to those who didn't want to die, bowing once in a while doesn't seem like that stupid of a decision.

Are you sure? If you are wrong ... what then?

12 minutes per pound for medium-rare. :)

Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity. Therefore, they are not worshipping the same God.

Same god, different flavour. Those three faith all have tenets of the other two they reject, like who is a real prophet, who is the chosen people of God, etc. But the God is the same.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.


See, being a polytheist (or technicly an Omni-theist) I wouldn't have a problem, one god who doesn't agree with me is irrelevant.

See, being a polytheist (or technicly an Omni-theist) I wouldn't have a problem, one god who doesn't agree with me is irrelevant.

Interesting. Lets debate this a little, why would you believe in more then one God when each God says that there is no other God(s) then I (us)?

Are you sure? If you are wrong ... what then?

If hell is contingent on which god you believe and not what actions you did during your life, then you'd better start acting according to the Egyptian God's edict, and the Norse ones. Oh and don't forget what Zeus and/or Jupiter told us to do. Not to mention Baron Samedhi and a myriad of other god in other faiths. Why should one stop living his life on fear of being wrong?

See, being a polytheist (or technicly an Omni-theist) I wouldn't have a problem, one god who doesn't agree with me is irrelevant.

Unless there really is one true God who doesn't take too kindly to worshipping other stuff. Then you're screwed.

I will ask him or her or it or them to create a rock he or she or it or they can't lift.

Same god, different flavour. Those three faith all have tenets of the other two they reject, like who is a real prophet, who is the chosen people of God, etc. But the God is the same.

No.

The very essence of who God is is different in each religion.

A God who is three Persons in one Essence is not the same as a God who is one Person in one Essence. To say that they are is to support a contradiction.

I will ask him or her or it or them to create a rock he or she or it or they can't lift.

Lol, the paradox would probably cause God to explode.

To answer the original question rather than debate which imaginary friend we are talking about, whether imaginary friends exist or if imaginary friends are morally good or bad (good grief!)...

Hey <insert actual god name here>,

I was wondering... what is the exact point of existence? I mean are we essentially here for:
a) your amusement
b) some one elses amusement
c) the grand working of some experiment
d) the minute sprites of some virtual reality
e) to suffer the pain of mortal life
f) to enjoy the pleasures of mortal life
g) to be pawns in some great battle against your enemy
h) something else (if so please explain)

I will ask him or her or it or them to create a rock he or she or it or they can't lift.

Now why would you want to cause a paradox that will probably destroy the universe as we know it?

What if you don't need to (like many religions) completely change your life style in order to go to heaven as long as you acknowledge he is your God. Why would you make such an assumption.

You want me to just pay lip service to some God in order to get on the good bus? Eh. Sure, when the bus shows up, I will say "yeah, what the heck, your God, swell fellow, always liked him." However, if it requires actual worship, no thanks. Worship of anybody WOULD be a complete change of my lifestyle.

Also, wouldn't you rather have a happy eternity and a not so happy human life then a happy human life then a horific eternity.

Would you rather live in squalor with no electricity and no running water and be beaten with sharp sticks every day for a year on the promise that I am going to put you up in the Taj Mahal next year? I guarantee it! I will!

And my promise to you means EXACTLY as much as the promise of some eternal life that some random guy in a desert dreamed up thousands of years ago to make himself feel better about his problems. My promise to MYSELF that I will make the best of this life carries MUCH more weight, thank you very much.

Interesting. Lets debate this a little, why would you believe in more then one God when each God says that there is no other God(s) then I (us)?

Only the Abrahamanic god says that and actually what he says is "you will not worship other gods" meaning that there are other gods but you should worship only him.

All the other gods, for the most part, concede favors to those who worship them but are cool if you also worship other gods on the side.

Really, the Abrahamanic god is an insecure moron, I don't know how people can believe in him.

Now why would you want to cause a paradox that will probably destroy the universe as we know it?

It'd be fun :)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.

How would I know it was really God and not a figment of my imagination?????
I actually think God has multiple personalities hence all the different religions..he forgot to take his meds one day and thus appeared the Koran. On the second day of non med taking the Torah appeared. On the 3rd day the new testament and hence the bible. Somewhere in between he went to the East got drunk with some goat herders. He told them he could do magic tricks like growing extra limbs and hence buddism! the list is endless...

Are you saying that in this situation, you would be aware that it is all hypothetical and that you don't actually exist? How could that be possible? You would not be aware of your own non existance.



Because you would rather reject God then admit you are wrong (hypothetically)

Unless god says to you "Yeah, there's a hell and if you don't believe in me then you're going there", there's nothing to reject.

You want me to just pay lip service to some God in order to get on the good bus? Eh. Sure, when the bus shows up, I will say "yeah, what the heck, your God, swell fellow, always liked him." However, if it requires actual worship, no thanks. Worship of anybody WOULD be a complete change of my lifestyle.


Well, I don't think you are required to worship the Christian god. However even if you did, it really wouldn't change it much.


Would you rather live in squalor with no electricity and no running water and be beaten with sharp sticks every day for a year on the promise that I am going to put you up in the Taj Mahal next year? I guarantee it! I will!

And my promise to you means EXACTLY as much as the promise of some eternal life that some random guy in a desert dreamed up thousands of years ago to make himself feel better about his problems. My promise to MYSELF that I will make the best of this life carries MUCH more weight, thank you very much.

So worshiping a God sometimes is the same as being beaten with a stick with not water and electricity all your life. Great comparison :rolleyes:

Besides, in this hypothetical situation God is real and therefor so must be hell.

It'd be fun :)

Yeah for the microsecond you have left to live. But I rather enjoy my life so I'd wait to be on my deathbed before asking god to destroy the universe. Nothingness is rather dull, you know...

Ok, the Catholic theologian is here! Hooray!

Ok, let me get started. Allah and God the Father are NOT the same. This is a common misconception, the phrophet tried to calim this to valdiate his unholy teachings. Secondly, YES we do have free will, as if we did not then wouldn't we all be perfect, as God is perfect? And YES God is perfect, if He wasn;t then no good would exist at all. And if you do not believe in Him, then consider Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is always the best, so therefore, it is much simpler that God created all then take the about 1 in 1 quadrillion chance that the Big Band occured, our planet was formed in the perfect location for life, and we gained our higher understanding from a complex and NOT scientific evolutionary THEORY. Those are my 2 cents.

Only the Abrahamanic god says that and actually what he says is "you will not worship other gods" meaning that there are other gods but you should worship only him.

All the other gods, for the most part, concede favors to those who worship them but are cool if you also worship other gods on the side.

Really, the Abrahamanic god is an insecure moron, I don't know how people can believe in him.

He actually says, thou shallt not worship false idols.

How would I know it was really God and not a figment of my imagination?????

Now that is a good question! Maybe god really is a figment of your imagination. But if you believe in that figment (lovely word) then he does exist (to you anyway) so you could say it probably is him (to you)

Besides, in this hypothetical situation God is real and therefor so must be hell.

False. If God is real, it deosn't follow that our conception of heaven, angels, hell, demons and other tenets of faith are true. That's why I'd have a good long chat with God if we were walking side by side.

That is, after he has prooved to me he is indeed a god by smiting an evil head of state from a distance. I'm thinking Bush right now, but I'm not picky.

Would you rather live in squalor with no electricity and no running water and be beaten with sharp sticks every day for a year on the promise that I am going to put you up in the Taj Mahal next year? I guarantee it! I will!


Presumably, to make it a proper analogy, that Taj Mahal promise will be for the rest of my life and beyond.

Of course, I don't know you, or anything about you, but based solely on a written contract that I was told by a 3rd party was from you, I trust you completely. Point me at your squalor!

Bush isn't evil, he is just not very bright. Now Osama, Saddam, and every other leader in the Muslim faith on the other hand....
It would be denying our free will if God simply crushed every evil person anyway.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.


so im walking down the street and "god" comes up and says "hey baby, im god, whatchu doin'?"

in that moment i realize that THIS is the true god. not some being that i have considered possibly the one true god in the past but some extremely unlikely god like vishnu or jupiter or mumbojumbo. (unlikely to ME, not necessarily unlikely to anyone else)

my husband would have me committed.

He actually says, thou shallt not worship false idols.

In some translations. The earliest known and most faithful versions of the ten commandments say something along the lines of "I am your god, you shall not worship other gods but me." I'm paraphrasing.

Bush isn't evil, he is just not very bright. Now Osama, Saddam, and every other leader in the Muslim faith on the other hand....
It would be denying our free will if God simply crushed every evil person anyway.

Yet somehow god found it fine to demolish cities of sinners and flood the entire earth ... he had no problem taking away our free will then apparently

Are you saying that in this situation, you would be aware that it is all hypothetical and that you don't actually exist? How could that be possible? You would not be aware of your own non existance.

I am saying that if the way the world ACTUALLY worked involved Gods clogging up pedestrian walkways, I would not worship those Gods, even if I was late for work and they wouldn't move. If God refused to get out of the way, I would walk around him. And, I would not worry about hell, I would go to work. Or lunch, if that had been where I was headed.

Because you would rather reject God then admit you are wrong (hypothetically)

I have not rejected God. In this world we are imagining, God is standing in the way. I have to walk through a puddle to avoid bumping into him. What I have done is refused to worship him.

In some translations. The earliest known and most faithful versions of the ten commandments say something along the lines of "I am your god, you shall not worship other gods but me." I'm paraphrasing.

and people wonder how there could be many branches of the christian faith. There can be one per different translation!

Yet somehow god found it fine to demolish cities of sinners and flood the entire earth ... he had no problem taking away our free will then apparently

BEFORE Christ. God changed the game plan AFTER He sent His son to earth. It is one of the mysteries of Christianity, we don't fully understand it but we accept it on FAITH. Yes to believe in God you have to have faith, we can only show you the light, you have to accept it.

In some translations. The earliest known and most faithful versions of the ten commandments say something along the lines of "I am your god, you shall not worship other gods but me." I'm paraphrasing.

Okay then, how do you choose which God created the universe? Or which one to worship to get in heaven?

but zeus did'nt send people there for not believing in him.

Nope, EVERYONE went to Hades, but some particularly annoying humans got to do things like roll stones up hills and get squished when it rolled back on them.

Or sit in water just shallow enough not to drink, with vines of fruit above just out of reach.


Zeus was quite a funny guy i suppose.

False. If God is real, it deosn't follow that our conception of heaven, angels, hell, demons and other tenets of faith are true. That's why I'd have a good long chat with God if we were walking side by side.

That is, after he has prooved to me he is indeed a god by smiting an evil head of state from a distance. I'm thinking Bush right now, but I'm not picky.

Well, now we've entered a bit of a sticky situation. My question would be how could you know what was "evil" unless you knew what was "good"? And I don't know if it's possible to know what is "good" without having an objective standard of good beyond yourself.

I am saying that if the way the world ACTUALLY worked involved Gods clogging up pedestrian walkways, I would not worship those Gods, even if I was late for work and they wouldn't move. If God refused to get out of the way, I would walk around him. And, I would not worry about hell, I would go to work. Or lunch, if that had been where I was headed.



I have not rejected God.... What I have done is refused to worship him.

Whats the difference?

And if you do not believe in Him, then consider Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is always the best, so therefore, it is much simpler that God created all

Right, I have got a few issues with the "God is perfect" assertion... but that's another matter.

I do not believe that a situation where we have to presuppose a diety who for some unknown purpose decides to create (in amongst all the other wonderous things in the universe, known and unknown) a small planet in the unfashionable end of the western spiral arc of a small galaxy known (to us at least) as the milky way where he will (though some small administrative hiccups with his angel sidekick) end up in a fight to the death with his own creation through the medium of some organic beings with a conciousness and a will of their own as the simplest solution.

Well, now we've entered a bit of a sticky situation. My question would be how could you know what was "evil" unless you knew what was "good"? And I don't know if it's possible to know what is "good" without having an objective standard of good beyond yourself.

God would know. You could ask god if he was evil before asking him to smite the guy.

Paxomenia;11703276']Right, I have got a few issues with the "God is perfect" assertion... but that's another matter.

I do not believe that a situation where we have to presuppose a diety who for some unknown purpose decides to create (in amongst all the other wonderous things in the universe, known and unknown) a small planet in the unfashionable end of the western spiral arc of a small galaxy known (to us at least) as the milky way where he will (though some small administrative hiccups with his angel sidekick) end up in a fight to the death with his own creation through the medium of some organic beings with a conciousness and a will of their own as the simplest solution.

Yeah I never get an explanation when I ask why god made the rest of the universe if we're the only life in it.

Paxomenia;11703276']Right, I have got a few issues with the "God is perfect" assertion... but that's another matter.

I do not believe that a situation where we have to presuppose a diety who for some unknown purpose decides to create (in amongst all the other wonderous things in the universe, known and unknown) a small planet in the unfashionable end of the western spiral arc of a small galaxy known (to us at least) as the milky way where he will (though some small administrative hiccups with his angel sidekick) end up in a fight to the death with his own creation through the medium of some organic beings with a conciousness and a will of their own as the simplest solution.

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. God created YOU. End of story. Stop questioning. BELIEVE, some things cannot be explained by the athiests in lab coats, they often contradict each other.

Paxomenia;11703276']Right, I have got a few issues with the "God is perfect" assertion... but that's another matter.

Well, if Zeus, Odin or Shiva appeared, you wouldn't have to assert they were perfect. They had foibles in the mythology.

God would know. You could ask god if he was evil before asking him to smite the guy.

**Gets dizzy and passes out**

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. God created YOU. End of story. Stop questioning. BELIEVE, some things cannot be explained by the athiests in lab coats, they often contradict each other.

THAT is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. No explanation required, just believe me! =P

BEFORE Christ. God changed the game plan AFTER He sent His son to earth. It is one of the mysteries of Christianity, we don't fully understand it but we accept it on FAITH. Yes to believe in God you have to have faith, we can only show you the light, you have to accept it.

For some reason your infallible god realized his old plan was not working and changed the game plan

Seems he made a mistake the first time around

Yeah I never get an explanation when I ask why god made the rest of the universe if we're the only life in it.

Must not have ever asked any Christians, Jews, or Muslims who have read The Bible beyond chapter one then.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

For some reason your infallible god realized his old plan was not working and changed the game plan

Seems he made a mistake the first time around
Can't you read? I said it was one of the MYSTERIES of Christianity. That means US SIMPLE HUMANS cannot HOPE to understand it. We don't know why He changed the way He deals with His creations, we just have to ACCEPT it and OBEY his commands!

Must not have ever asked any Christians, Jews, or Muslims who have read The Bible beyond chapter one then.

Why then did God make stars we cannot see with the naked eye ?
And why are there even harder to observe planets around other stars ?
And why must the universe be so bloody huge and are we nowhere near the center ?

Okay then, how do you choose which God created the universe? Or which one to worship to get in heaven?

That's the thing. You don't know.

I just wanna stop the idiocy real quick and just say I don't respect or like Sol at all. Zero. Nodda.

Continue.

Stop questioning

Now that is the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard. You've stopped questioning? You are happy to stay there trapped in your dogma unable to even consider for a moment that perhaps you are wrong, that perhaps there is no God? Sit back with your imaginary friend and live content in the knowledge that you are right. That's your choice.

If you believe in God that is OK with me. Many people do and it is obviously a great comfort to them. I don't tell them they are wrong, that they should live only by those things that are objectively proveable, who am I to say?

You believe your things and I'll believe mine.

Hades was the realm of the dead, good and bad alike. There was not special place for "good" people as far as I know.


Yeah, there was, I don't remember the name, but something like "The land of the fallen heroes" and it had flooding rosey light, and endless hills to wander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Giuldor
BEFORE Christ. God changed the game plan AFTER He sent His son to earth. It is one of the mysteries of Christianity, we don't fully understand it but we accept it on FAITH. Yes to believe in God you have to have faith, we can only show you the light, you have to accept it.

UpwardThrust:
For some reason your infallible god realized his old plan was not working and changed the game plan

Seems he made a mistake the first time around

Hmmm... This is the first time I've ever heard a Christian say something this way. I'm not aware that The New Testament was ever a "change" in God's plan. I have always heard people say the New Testament was the fulfillment of the Old Testament plan. I think that may not have been the best way to phrase that and doesn't exactly portray the Christian position on things.

Can't you read? I said it was one of the MYSTERIES of Christianity. That means US SIMPLE HUMANS cannot HOPE to understand it. We don't know why He changed the way He deals with His creations, we just have to ACCEPT it and OBEY his commands!

We must obey the commands handed to us from god to a collection of letters and statements to a book to a church to a pope to a cardinal to a smaller church to a priest - how much clearer can it get?!

Can't you read? I said it was one of the MYSTERIES of Christianity. That means US SIMPLE HUMANS cannot HOPE to understand it. We don't know why He changed the way He deals with His creations, we just have to ACCEPT it and OBEY his commands!

Sorry I dont just ignore the non understood ... if humans did that in general we would still be in the dark ages thinking that god made lightning

Well, if I was able to meet God and he would tell me who he was I would convert. But then again, it's also possible that a God is trying to trick me in to following him as part of a scheme, and that could turn out pretty rough.

Yeah, there was, I don't remember the name, but something like "The land of the fallen heroes" and it had flooding rosey light, and endless hills to wander.

yeah, I corrected myself later. Elysian Fields (good) and Tartarus (bad)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Giuldor
Stop questioning

Dang! I don't know who would ascribe to that theory. Most Christians believe that God is the answer, so questions would evidently lead to him. It's usually, in my experience, atheists who stop questioning.

So basically you are saying you do not know why your infallible God made a mistake.

I was being sarcastic. =P

It's like a game of telephone - god is almighty, but the best he can pull off is a weird game of pass-it-on.

So basically you are saying you do not know why your infallible God made a mistake.

No, they know He did not make a mistake. Even if God would reveal Himself in all his glory and speak the words "I made a mistake, my apologies" they would still know he did not make a mistake. Infallibility is dogma. And dogma is powerful stuff. It even overrules the actual words of God.

So basically you are saying you do not know why your infallible God made a mistake.

That was sarcasm, my good man.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

this isn't hypothetical at all. They're called mormons, and they founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I believe Joe Smith's original epiphany followed the lines of "walking alone one day, and then God approaches..."

I will ask him or her or it or them to create a rock he or she or it or they can't lift.

Have you ever considered the circumstance that when you lift a small stone from the ground you also lift the entire earth from the stone?

It's usually, in my experience, atheists who stop questioning.

Really? It would seem to me that in the absence of a God or higher purpose it would be the ideal time to start questioning. The meaning of life would be a good place to start, or perhaps the creation of the universe, or perhaps just general questions about space, time, self awareness, social iinteraction, evolution and a myriad of other topics spring to mind :)

I was being sarcastic. =P

It's like a game of telephone - god is almighty, but the best he can pull off is a weird game of pass-it-on.

Wait sorry I didn't mean to quote you.

Actually, I was wrong. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades) It seems Hades was separated in the Elysian Fields (heaven) and Tartarus (hell). Also, there was five rivers (Archeron, Lethe and Styx being the most known.)

Elysian Fields.... that's what i was looking for...

wait a sec.... then where the hell did I get the whole fallen heros thing....

*goes checking mythology*

I bet its Norse....

Can't you read? I said it was one of the MYSTERIES of Christianity. That means US SIMPLE HUMANS cannot HOPE to understand it. We don't know why He changed the way He deals with His creations, we just have to ACCEPT it and OBEY his commands!

So basically you are saying you do not know why your infallible God made a mistake.

I bet greek :)

No.

The very essence of who God is is different in each religion.

A God who is three Persons in one Essence is not the same as a God who is one Person in one Essence. To say that they are is to support a contradiction.

You do realize that the trinitarian nature of the Christian God was voted at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD along with the divinity of Jesus, right? Before this vote, there were various sects who believed various natures of the Christian God and the divinity of Jesus.

And no matter how many times you claim the Christian God is different from the Jewish and Muslim Gods, please read your history of religion and pay attention to the parts about Christianity forming out of Judaisim and Islam forming out of Christianity.

Jews believe Abraham was the last prophet, Christians recognize one more prophet, Jesus, and Muslims recognize Jesus and one more prophet, Mohammed. Mohammed, in the Quran, recognizes that the God he is writing about is the same as the Christian God.

It would depend on which god I met. If it was Bacchus, I would toast Him. If it was some Calvinist deity I would probably cross the street and pretend to be absorbed in something else. If it was a hindu love deity, well...

It's usually, in my experience, atheists who stop questioning.

why are some people at higher risks of cancer? why is the universe like a lot of little strings? how do anaesthetics work? can machines be made to think?

oops ran out of questions in the absence of God.

Have you ever considered the circumstance that when you lift a small stone from the ground you also lift the entire earth from the stone?

Groovy! That's so zen!

You do realize that the trinitarian nature of the Christian God was voted at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD along with the divinity of Jesus, right? Before this vote, there were various sects who believed various natures of the Christian God and the divinity of Jesus.

And no matter how many times you claim the Christian God is different from the Jewish and Muslim Gods, please read your history of religion and pay attention to the parts about Christianity forming out of Judaisim and Islam forming out of Christianity.

Jews believe Abraham was the last prophet, Christians recognize one more prophet, Jesus, and Muslims recognize Jesus and one more prophet, Mohammed. Mohammed, in the Quran, recognizes that the God he is writing about is the same as the Christian God.

Thank you.

... and pay attention to the parts about Christianity forming out of Judaisim and Islam forming out of Christianity.... and Judaism out of all sorts of borrowed theologies.

Groovy! That's so zen!

What is zen about overcoming the gravitational pull between two objects, i.e. lifting?

Paxomenia;11703418']I bet greek :)

I think its Norse...

I'm finding very little about it, but it seems close to Vahlhalla

Groovy! That's so zen!

Yeah. God has already made a rock we cannot lift, and we have already lifted it.

I think its Norse...

I'm finding very little about it, but it seems close to Vahlhalla

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysion :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx_(mythology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysian

So greek then :)

... and Judaism out of all sorts of borrowed theologies.

I love how if you get a more "realistic" translation of the bible, there are actually TWO creation stories that talk about lots of other deities!

why are some people at higher risks of cancer? why is the universe like a lot of little strings? how do anaesthetics work? can machines be made to think?

oops ran out of questions in the absence of God.

Lol! The context was questioning about God. If I wasn't clear, that was my fault. I only meant to say that most Christians I meet have doubts and question all the time. Most Atheists stop asking questions about God as many get ticked off about the topic anyways.

What is zen about overcoming the gravitational pull between two objects, i.e. lifting?

Because it changes your point of view. Besides you're not really overcoming the gravitational pull, you're just overcoming the gravitational force, which in this case is not really too much, just a few grams.

Perhaps the question to god would be better phrased as "an object so massive you can't move"

I guess it would be an object with an infinite mass.

Because it changes your point of view. Besides you're not really overcoming the gravitational pull, you're just overcoming the gravitational force, which in this case is not really too much, just a few grams.

Perhaps the question to god would be better phrased as "an object so massive you can't move"

I guess it would be an object with an infinite mass.

God doesn't lift rocks.

I guess it would be an object with an infinite mass.

Aretha Franklin? :eek:

You do realize that the trinitarian nature of the Christian God was voted at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD along with the divinity of Jesus, right? Before this vote, there were various sects who believed various natures of the Christian God and the divinity of Jesus.

I know that makes good information for writing a book like The Davinci Code, but that post is a little deceiving. The discussion was about Jesus being "Co-eternal" with the Father. Arius, who disagreed with that, DID believe Jesus was sinless, created the Universe, and was a unique and special created being - not a mere man. Arius was just reluctant to take the next step and classify Jesus as God in the full sense.

That "close vote" you mention was 300 - 2. That vote only affirmed what Christians to that time had believed all along.

Lol! The context was questioning about God. If I wasn't clear, that was my fault. I only meant to say that most Christians I meet have doubts and question all the time. Most Atheists stop asking questions about God as many get ticked off about the topic anyways.

Well.. naturally.
"Does God exist ?"
"I don't know"
"Do you believe he likes pineapples ?"
"Since I do not even know if he exists or not I see little point in asking that kind of question. If you excuse me, I have to cure cancer now".

Whats the difference?

What is the difference between acknowledging some one is standing in front of you and worshipping them? Boy, you must be a hoot at parties.

I know that makes good information for writing a book like The Davinci Code, but that post is a little deceiving. The discussion was about Jesus being "Co-eternal" with the Father. Arius, who disagreed with that, DID believe Jesus was sinless, created the Universe, and was a unique and special created being - not a mere man. Arius was just reluctant to take the next step and classify Jesus as God in the full sense.

That "close vote" you mention was 300 - 2. That vote only affirmed what Christians to that time had believed all along.

I'm sorry, you must have figured me for an idiot. My references to the Council of Nicea comes out of my study of Western Civilization in Ancient Times (a course at the university where I obtained my Bachelor of Arts in History), not from The Davinci Code.

Yes it was a landslide vote, but there were plenty of Christians who did not believe in the Trinity of the Christian God. You yourself admitted to the popularity of Arius, thus making it a logical step to believe that there were plenty of Christians who agreed with him.

What I'm trying to get at is that the Christians DECIDED to believe that Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father and DECIDED to believe in the trinitarian nature of God.

Well.. naturally.
"Does God exist ?"
"I don't know"
"Do you believe he likes pineapples ?"
"Since I do not even know if he exists or not I see little point in asking that kind of question. If you excuse me, I have to cure cancer now".

Ok, not to split hairs here, but could you please explain to me the difference between an agnostic and an atheist? I always thought those that weren't convinced but still questioned were called agnostics and that those who didn't believe God existed were called Atheists. Your post uses the example of an atheist who says "since I do not even know if he exists or not".

What is the difference between acknowledging some one is standing in front of you and worshipping them?

To people who are willing to even worship someone who is not standing in front of them that is an unanswerable question...

OK perhaps for clarification:

"Do you believe in God?"
"No"
"Do you think he likes pineapples"
"I have no time to consider whether a non-existent being may like exotic fruit as I am busy finding a cure for cancer"

Although to be honest I am not sure that every atheist is hard at work solving the problems of humanity. I am sure many are simply tooling about in lives getting on with whatever they feel necessary.

Ok, not to split hairs here, but could you please explain to me the difference between an agnostic and an atheist? I always thought those that weren't convinced but still questioned were called agnostics and that those who didn't believe God existed were called Atheists. Your post uses the example of an atheist who says "since I do not even know if he exists or not".

Let the hairsplitting commence... ;)

Strong Atheist: I know there is no God.
Weak Atheist: I don't believe in God.
Agnostic: I'm don't know if there's a God or not.
Weak Theist: I believe in God.
Strong Theist: I know there is a God.

A bit simplistic, but that's the basic idea.

To people who are willing to even worship someone who is not standing in front of them that is an unanswerable question...

That was in response to a question asking me what the difference between rejecting God and refusing to worship him was, in the context of the question posed by the OP. My answer was intended to reaffirm that even if God WERE somehow to be proven I was not going to deny that he was proven, and equally not about to go around worshipping him just because he was there.

Lol! The context was questioning about God. If I wasn't clear, that was my fault. I only meant to say that most Christians I meet have doubts and question all the time. Most Atheists stop asking questions about God as many get ticked off about the topic anyways.

ah. oops. well that's what happens when you don't read all the lead-up...

sorry.

God doesn't lift rocks.

Nope... he allowed man to invent bulldozers for that.

Let the hairsplitting commence... ;)

Strong Atheist: I know there is no God.
Weak Atheist: I don't believe in God.
Agnostic: I'm don't know if there's a God or not.
Weak Theist: I believe in God.
Strong Theist: I know there is a God.

A bit simplistic, but that's the basic idea.

That is pretty good basic hairsplitting. :p

Paxomenia;11703550']OK perhaps for clarification:

"Do you believe in God?"
"No"
"Do you think he likes pineapples"
"I have no time to consider whether a non-existent being may like exotic fruit as I am busy finding a cure for cancer"

Although to be honest I am not sure that every atheist is hard at work solving the problems of humanity. I am sure many are simply tooling about in lives getting on with whatever they feel necessary.

i find the people working on cures for cancer don't always work that hard (and often are working on fruit flies ironically). and anyways, molecular biologists, the types looking for said cure, are often religious. lots of religious scientists... besides Tom Cruise.

That was in response to a question asking me what the difference between rejecting God and refusing to worship him was, in the context of the question posed by the OP.

Ah, I thought it was about god existing and the necessity to worship this god.

My answer was intended to reaffirm that even if God WERE somehow to be proven I was not going to deny that he was proven, and equally not about to go around worshipping him just because he was there.

That's what I thought I replied to.

Can't you read? I said it was one of the MYSTERIES of Christianity. That means US SIMPLE HUMANS cannot HOPE to understand it. We don't know why He changed the way He deals with His creations, we just have to ACCEPT it and OBEY his commands!

If that is true, why would God bother to create us with brains? Why give us the capacity to ask the questions if the answers are just "STOP ASKING AND DO WHAT I SAY?" Why let the word "Why" be discovered at all?

If that is true, why would God bother to create us with brains? Why give us the capacity to ask the questions if the answers are just "STOP ASKING AND DO WHAT I SAY?" Why let the word "Why" be discovered at all?

because God is clasically a father figure, and my father figure always said "Do as I say, not as I do", followed by "Tough, that's the way it is around here."

Ironically my father's name mistranslates into God in other languages...

Ironically my father's name mistranslates into God in other languages...

So what is your father's name ?

That's what I thought I replied to.

I get that on re-reading your response... I had included the sarcastic "you must be a hoot at parties" to indicate that I was little incredulous that the difference between saying someone exists and worshipping them was not obvious, and imagining a person who does not know the difference having a conversation like this...

Believer's Friend: "Believer, this is Tom."
Tom: "Hi. I'm Tom."
Believer (kneeling): "Oh, Great and Powerful Tom who stands before me..."
Believer's Friend: "And this is his girlfriend, Sarah."
Believer(swiveling around on knees to face Sarah): "Oh, Beneficent and Wonderful Sarah..."

And so on.

Basically poking a hole in the idea that the existance of God presupposes an automatic requirement of worship of that God. Except that it kind of does, in a way, because Gods don't exist unless someone worships (or at least believes in) them... hmmm.

So what is your father's name ?

Adonis... which transliterates to Adonai in Hebrew, meaning Lord.

What is the difference between acknowledging some one is standing in front of you and worshipping them? Boy, you must be a hoot at parties.

No, whats the difference between rejecting him (which is what you said), and refusing to worship him.

why would I want to run into any of you low lives on the street?

why would I want to run into any of you low lives on the street?

'Cause you lost a bet or a poker game? Because you have been ordered by the court to some community service because religion has burned something. How should I know, the fact is that in this situation, you want to.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.
If God personally revealed to me that Islam was the right faith, and as Muslims believe, the epitome of religion (being the one that came last), I would convert. I'm not so arrogant as to think I could never be wrong.

because God is clasically a father figure, and my father figure always said "Do as I say, not as I do", followed by "Tough, that's the way it is around here."

Ironically my father's name mistranslates into God in other languages...

Which is, I admit, how many Christians claim God behaves. :D

Yeah, everyone went to hell. Weird religion.

Nah, Hades wasn't hell. That was Tartarus, I think, although that may have been one of the people in it.

There was the Elaysian fields or something for the heroes.

Ok, the Catholic theologian is here! Hooray!

Ok, let me get started. Allah and God the Father are NOT the same. This is a common misconception, the phrophet tried to calim this to valdiate his unholy teachings. Secondly, YES we do have free will, as if we did not then wouldn't we all be perfect, as God is perfect? And YES God is perfect, if He wasn;t then no good would exist at all. And if you do not believe in Him, then consider Occam's Razor, the simplest solution is always the best, so therefore, it is much simpler that God created all then take the about 1 in 1 quadrillion chance that the Big Band occured, our planet was formed in the perfect location for life, and we gained our higher understanding from a complex and NOT scientific evolutionary THEORY. Those are my 2 cents.

I disagree, I believe that we are worshipping the same guy. I think the Moslems just don't quite get the whole picture. A little too old testament. They believe: God is all powerful, nothing can stand before him-God is infinitely good and just-God created the universe. What's the big difference? It's the same guy!

Also:
Please don't use Occam's Razor in such a way. It does not state that the simples solution is correct. It states that the solution that makes the least number of assumptions about unknowns is usually correct. Creationists have been trying to throw that down right and left without understanding it so please don't misrepresent it.

As for evolution...all science is a theory. Only mathematics can prove anything. Everything EVERYTHING in science is a theory with a sizable body of evidence. Natural selection has an enormous amount of support behind it and some type of change over time (evolution) in life has even more support.
I don't see how animals and plants changing over time is in some big conflict with God. I see no theological problems with it.

As for the original question posed in this post I really like what some people who actually answer the question instead of arguing over theology say.

If I were wrong about everything I still would be living life as a good person from my point of view. Also, if this God wasn't good I would refuse to worship him. I mean it would suck if there was an all powerful creator and he wasn't good. I wouldn't worship no matter what. God is deserving of worship because he is infinitely great and infinitely good, not because he could damn us all if he wanted.

Although I don't know why some jackass-type all powerful being would bother with free will in the first place.

Adonis... which transliterates to Adonai in Hebrew, meaning Lord.

Then are you from Syria?

No, whats the difference between rejecting him (which is what you said), and refusing to worship him.

OK... I think this somehow has gotten turned around. By not rejecting, I simply meant that if God were standing in front of me and preventing passage down the street, I would not stick my fingers in my ears, close my eyes and say "la la la, I don't see you."

Refusing to worship is just that. If some hypothetical God WAS standing in front of me and making it difficult to get around him, I would not see his simple existance as a valid reason to worship him.

OK... I think this somehow has gotten turned around. By not rejecting, I simply meant that if God were standing in front of me and preventing passage down the street, I would not stick my fingers in my ears, close my eyes and say "la la la, I don't see you."

Refusing to worship is just that. If some hypothetical God WAS standing in front of me and making it difficult to get around him, I would not see his simple existance as a valid reason to worship him.

Indeed. Just co-existence. Nothing more.

So you skip the concept of trinity in Christianity?

I did. It never made any damn sense. If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, and Jesus is God, how the hell can he be the son of God? How can anyone be his own son?

And on another subject completely: If Mary wasn't Jesus' "biological" mother per se, and she was just a surrogate, then who WAS Jesus' real mom? And what the hell was Joseph doing there? He's there for the whole birth thing and for 12-year-old-where-the-hell-did-Jesus-go-oh-he's-just-in-the-temple thing, then he's gone. :confused:

that's a trippy bible you're reading there mate :P

I did. It never made any damn sense. If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, and Jesus is God, how the hell can he be the son of God? How can anyone be his own son?

And on another subject completely: If Mary wasn't Jesus' "biological" mother per se, and she was just a surrogate, then who WAS Jesus' real mom? And what the hell was Joseph doing there? He's there for the whole birth thing and for 12-year-old-where-the-hell-did-Jesus-go-oh-he's-just-in-the-temple thing, then he's gone. :confused:

How old are you?

Maybe you want to read up some on the (Egyptian) concept of deities showing themselves in various manifestations that are different from each other and that are able to interact with each other.

And Mary was indeed Jesu biological mother.

To answer the OP's question:

If I was walking down the street and ran into a deity other than my Patron Goddess (Brighid), I would say hello and probably stop for a bit of a chat. Just cursory interest, you see.

I did. It never made any damn sense. If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, and Jesus is God, how the hell can he be the son of God? How can anyone be his own son?

And on another subject completely: If Mary wasn't Jesus' "biological" mother per se, and she was just a surrogate, then who WAS Jesus' real mom? And what the hell was Joseph doing there? He's there for the whole birth thing and for 12-year-old-where-the-hell-did-Jesus-go-oh-he's-just-in-the-temple thing, then he's gone. :confused:

Three persons, one God. They can act separately but because they are one they could never come into conflict or disagree with each other in any way. 'Son' and 'Father' are probably just what God is using so we can understand it. Those are the aspects those persons have and Jesus was a good son to his father. So God the Father was still doing whatever he does while Jesus was on Earth hanging out. The Holy Spirit was around somewhere too. But it has to be three persons because if God came down to Earth completely he couldn't pray to himself for help. But, if he exists as three persons then one can come down wholly and completely while the other two chill.

As for Jesus' 'real mom' the angel came down and plopped him in there. He had no biological father. His physical body was essentially created somehow by God in Mary. There was no sexin'.

was no sexin'.

No sexin'!? Poor woman. :eek:

Good thing she got plenty of sexin' later. She should have gotten pregnant by Zeus, then she would have gotten plenty of sexin'.;)

Let the hairsplitting commence... ;)

Strong Atheist: I know there is no God.
Weak Atheist: I don't believe in God.
Agnostic: I'm don't know if there's a God or not.
Weak Theist: I believe in God.
Strong Theist: I know there is a God.

A bit simplistic, but that's the basic idea.

I would modify the agnostic slightly:
Strong Agnostic: I'm certain it is impossible to know if there's a God or not.

In addition:
Maltheist: I know there is a God, but he is evil
Deist: I know there is a God, but he does not interfere in our lives.
Spiritualist: I know there is some higher force

Three persons, one God. They can act separately but because they are one they could never come into conflict or disagree with each other in any way. 'Son' and 'Father' are probably just what God is using so we can understand it. Those are the aspects those persons have and Jesus was a good son to his father. So God the Father was still doing whatever he does while Jesus was on Earth hanging out. The Holy Spirit was around somewhere too. But it has to be three persons because if God came down to Earth completely he couldn't pray to himself for help. But, if he exists as three persons then one can come down wholly and completely while the other two chill. Okay...

As for Jesus' 'real mom' the angel came down and plopped him in there. He had no biological father. His physical body was essentially created somehow by God in Mary. There was no sexin'.

Well, I didn't htink there was sex involved. I was just wondering how God had some type of embryo thing and planted it in Mary. So............. if Jesus had no biological father, and Mary was His biological mother, then wouldn't that mean that JEsus was an egg? Or was He some type of Holy Test-Tube Baby? :headbang: Doesn't...make...sense! :headbang:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.

Those are all the same God. He'd essentially be telling you what his suggested reading list is.

Now if you were a follower of the Book and it was Thor or the Monkey King who showed up...

Well, the more hard bitten varieties of Christianity already have an answer for just that sort of thing. If a spirit shows up and tells you anything that disagrees with what the Church rulers tell you, then those spirits are demons sent to take you to hell.

But I guess it all depends on your view of heaven. If you're a Christian cop and one day Odin shows up and tells you that your courage in the face of danger will one day mean that you will get shot and killed, then you will spend all eternity getting disemboweled by hordes of rampaging Vikings every day as a reward!!!... well, you might start looking into a career as an EMT.

As for Jesus' 'real mom' the angel came down and plopped him in there. He had no biological father. His physical body was essentially created somehow by God in Mary. There was no sexin'.

If they had had the option they would have constructed a story where Jesus was hidden in a basket in the reeds. But that story was already taken by Horus and Moses...

If they had had the option they would have constructed a story where Jesus was hidden in a basket in the reeds. But that story was already taken by Horus and Moses...

Plus, at the time, after-the-fact claims to virgin birth were all the rage. For instance, Alexander the Great had one too.

Why then did God make stars we cannot see with the naked eye ?
And why are there even harder to observe planets around other stars ?
And why must the universe be so bloody huge and are we nowhere near the center ?

Ah! I see where you're going with this. I believe the correct response would be: To show that we have a really BIG God? If He created all of this and we keep discovering more and more of it, it causes us to slip into a sense of awe? That's what I think anyway.

Ah! I see where you're going with this. I believe the correct response would be: To show that we have a really BIG God? If He created all of this and we keep discovering more and more of it, it causes us to slip into a sense of awe? That's what I think anyway.

Interesting idea. Well, I have got the awe without the God, so it at least partially worked. :p

Okay...



Well, I didn't htink there was sex involved. I was just wondering how God had some type of embryo thing and planted it in Mary. So............. if Jesus had no biological father, and Mary was His biological mother, then wouldn't that mean that JEsus was an egg? Or was He some type of Holy Test-Tube Baby? :headbang: Doesn't...make...sense! :headbang:

Because, DN, you're trying to apply rationalism and science to an article of faith and all you'll get doing that is a headache. Actually, if I recall correctly, Mary asked the Angel Gabriel that question when he told her what was going to happen. The answer was, "With God, all things are possible." It happened because God willed it to happen.

My God is not the right God???

May Zeus smite thee with his lightning!!!

Well, I have got the awe without the God, so it at least partially worked. :p

Count me in that number!

Good time for a quote by Augustine

"We love the truth when it enlightens us, but we hate it when it convicts us."

I have a vision of Jack Nicholson screaming, "You can't handle the truth!" Well, it's hard for anyone really to handle it I think.

"We love the truth when it enlightens us, but we hate it when it convicts us."

And that from a Christian... :rolleyes:

Well, the first thing I would ask this god is for some indisputable proof that they were really the 'True' god. (Being all powerful, god could easily provide this). Once said proof was provided, I would promptly begin the appropriate amount of worship. Why?

To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke(who was quoting someone else!):
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f215/L0NGB0W/LOGIC.jpg

Result A: You die and that's it. Gee you were right!
Result B: You wasted all that time worshipping...
Result C: Oh! there is a God! You go to hell.
Result D: Yay! there is a God! Welcome to heaven.

Note how 'D' is the only answer where something good happens to you. So you might as well believe in him.

Now here's my two cents on others' replies.

Iztatepopotla: "Create a rock you can't lift."
God: "Uhh...NO!"


Upper Botswavia:
Would you rather live in squalor with no electricity and no running water and be beaten with sharp sticks every day for a year on the promise that I am going to put you up in the Taj Mahal next year? I guarantee it! I will!

EWW! Who'd wanna live in a tomb?

Hydesland
Okay then, how do you choose which God created the universe? Or which one to worship to get in heaven?

(Psst! He's the guy standing before you on the sidewalk!)

Hydesland
So basically you are saying you do not know why your infallible God made a mistake.


Perhaps the reasons behind how god did business during the old testament reflected humanity's savagery at the time. Perhaps God repealed his original laws when he decided humanity had matured sufficiently.

Prior to a lining-up law being passed in the UK, people milled around busses and shops and would rush the door when said establishment opened. So a law was passed forcing people to wait, single-file. This law does NOT exist NOW. But in many parts of the world, people politely line up and wait their turn. Perhaps the reasoning behind the differencess between the old and new testaments is similar.

East of Eden is Nod
What is zen about overcoming the gravitational pull between two objects, i.e. lifting?

If you need to ask, Nothing. Nothing at all.

And that from a Christian... :rolleyes:

Christian or not, it's always good to be honest with human nature.

I would modify the agnostic slightly:
Strong Agnostic: I'm certain it is impossible to know if there's a God or not.

In addition:
Maltheist: I know there is a God, but he is evil
Deist: I know there is a God, but he does not interfere in our lives.
Spiritualist: I know there is some higher force

Good additions to the list. *nod*

Christian or not, it's always good to be honest with human nature.

Depends on what the context of that quote was. Since it were Augustine's words I must suppose he erroneously identified truth with Christian theology/ideology or anything in that direction. That changes the supposition somewhat, doesn't it?

Well, the first thing I would ask this god is for some indisputable proof that they were really the 'True' god. (Being all powerful, god could easily provide this). Once said proof was provided, I would promptly begin the appropriate amount of worship. Why?

To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke(who was quoting someone else!):
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f215/L0NGB0W/LOGIC.jpg

Result A: You die and that's it. Gee you were right!
Result B: You wasted all that time worshipping...
Result C: Oh! there is a God! You go to hell.
Result D: Yay! there is a God! Welcome to heaven.

Note how 'D' is the only answer where something good happens to you. So you might as well believe in him.



Do I get a cookie because I know that Clarke was quoting Pascal’s wager

AS such there are major flaws with that silly wager

A) assumes an idiot god that does not mind that you only believe to "Hedge" your bet

B) Assumes that you can freely believe anything and TRULY believe it

Not to mention the natural False Dichotomy

1. The Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in Christian theology, or
2. God does not exist.

It also ignores the fact that there are other religions making the same claim. … if lets say 5 religions all say that any belief in a false god (any of the other 4) leads to hell as well …

Which is the safe bet then?

Ask the guy on the sidewalk...

Well, the first thing I would ask this god is for some indisputable proof that they were really the 'True' god. (Being all powerful, god could easily provide this). Once said proof was provided, I would promptly begin the appropriate amount of worship. Why?

To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke(who was quoting someone else!):
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f215/L0NGB0W/LOGIC.jpg

Result A: You die and that's it. Gee you were right!
Result B: You wasted all that time worshipping...
Result C: Oh! there is a God! You go to hell.
Result D: Yay! there is a God! Welcome to heaven.

Note how 'D' is the only answer where something good happens to you. So you might as well believe in him.


Pasqual's wager?

He always overlooked the other possibility.

Oh, wow, there's a God, and I never worshipped him. I'm sure glad he's understanding enough to realize that he created a world full of lying assholes who have placed themselves in a position to claim that they were the only ones who could get me into heaven while proving that they couldn't possibly and is willing to let it go because he's not some narrcissistic asshole who gets pissed off at whoever doesn't drop trow and bend over at his approach.

I would just include the new deity into the Hindu pantheon of million gazillion Gods. :cool:

Well, I'm an atheist - perhaps I'm not able to explain etherything with science, but I need no god to fill this lap. And all these things written in the "holy books" - they are really weird. They seem not to be a good explanation. And why all these theists belive in one special book? The only reason is, that they were teached to do so in their childhood.

You can't proof, that there is a god - and you can't disproof it. But I think it is very improbable, that the bible is right. In fact, many things in the bible were proofen to be wrong. (Ok, I know there are these creationists - but I live in Germany, they extinguished in Europe 100 years ago.)

In science, this is no problem - if something is wrong, you create a new model, which fits better. But does this really work with religion?

And if I would meet a god in the street, it would depend, which god it was.

If it would be a old greek/roman god, I would talk about their lifes, and ask him or her, whith which puppets he or she is playing at the moment. I like this crazy guys, they are quite funny and amusing.

The christian/jewish/muslim god - I would ignore him. He is only a boring fellow, who disappeared for 2000 years. He can't be really powerfull. If he needs millions of years to create new species, where men can do it in in much shorter time, he seems not to be very talented. Perhaps I would tell him to resign an tell all his crazy worshippers to stop all the bloodshed in his name.

Depends on what the context of that quote was. Since it were Augustine's words I must suppose he erroneously identified truth with Christian theology/ideology or anything in that direction. That changes the supposition somewhat, doesn't it?

Your assumption that he was erroneous in identifying truth with Christian theology/ideology. If truth is Christian theology/ideology and you have ruled it out, then you have just ruled out the possibility of discovering truth.

Im Christian, but I wouldnt mind if the real God turned out to be bhudda. I like the whole "Peace and Tranquility" ideals.
Also, to all Atheists- Why wouldnt you want to worship God? One- It helps you enjoy life. At the expense of a few things (drinking, smoking, having sex with every person you can), you have 1. an uplifting feeling in your heart, 2. The knowledge that you will live on after death, in a place much better than earth,
and many more things that i cant think of right now.
And if you just plain dont want to have a religion, fine by me, but dont be walking around going "Ive given up on religion and am therefore smarter than anyone who has a religion, because they are just idiotic sheep believing in a fairy tale"

Well, I'm an atheist - perhaps I'm not able to explain etherything with science, but I need no god to fill this lap. And all these things written in the "holy books" - they are really weird. They seem not to be a good explanation. And why all these theists belive in one special book? The only reason is, that they were teached to do so in their childhood.

*snip*.

Well, you've left out all the options. As one who believes in the words of one particular "holy book", it's not because I was taught so as a child. It's all quite rational actually. I know there's alot of explanation in between these steps, and I know there's people who may disagree along the way, but my evolution to faith occurred as follows:
1. Truth about reality is knowable
2. The opposite of truth is false.
3. It is true that the theistic God exists (Beginning of the Universe, Design of the universe, Design of life, and moral law)
4. If God exists, then miracles are possible.
5. Miracles can be used to confirm a message from God.
6. The New Testament is historically reliable as evidenced by early testimony, eyewitness testimony, authentic testimony, and eyewitnesses who were not deceived.
7. The New Testament says Jesus claimed to be God.
8. Jesus' claim to be God was miraculously confirmed by his fulfillment of many prophecies about Himself, his sinless life and miraculous deeds, and his prediction and accomplishment of resurrection.
9. Therefore, Jesus is God.
10. Whatever Jesus (who is God) teaches is true.
11. Jesus taught the Bible is the Word of God.
12. Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God and anything opposed to it is false.


And before attacking the lines of reasoning, I am not suggesting the above points are true by definition. Most of them are premises that I have accepted after examining the evidence. For example, point 3 "It is true that the theistic God exists" isn't true just because somebody told me so. I have good reasons that back up why I believe that is the case. I'm not online here enough to defend each of those and that is not the purpose of this post. It's only to give the defense that my believing in a "holy writing" isn't just because that is what I was taught. As if had I been enlightened enough to know more there is no way I would believe it.

I might suggest, if you've left out all the options based on that conclusion, maybe you've left out all the options in other things to consider as well.

From another Thread:

a) you incorrectly believe there is an easter bunny and you get nothing. What have you lost?
b) you correctly don't believe there's an easter bunny and you get nothing.
c) you incorrectly believe there is no easter bunny and you get stiffed.
d) you correctly believe in the easter bunny and get candy.

I call it Cadbury's wager.



So, you better believe in the easter bunny... :p

From another Thread:

a) you incorrectly believe there is an easter bunny and you get nothing. What have you lost?
b) you correctly don't believe there's an easter bunny and you get nothing.
c) you incorrectly believe there is no easter bunny and you get stiffed.
d) you correctly believe in the easter bunny and get candy.

I call it Cadbury's wager.



So, you better believe in the easter bunny... :p

That's funny. You do a good job in pointing out the weakness of Pascal's Wager. The point of the wager though, is to consider the options and the risk of not considering all the options. After all, if there is a truth that has consequences for unbelief, then the weight of those consequences begs I consider them. However, bringing more, serious options to the table is worth of consideration. All of these are serious things to ponder when arriving at what you believe.

Well, you've left out all the options. As one who believes in the words of one particular "holy book", it's not because I was taught so as a child. It's all quite rational actually. I know there's alot of explanation in between these steps, and I know there's people who may disagree along the way, but my evolution to faith occurred as follows:
1. Truth about reality is knowable
2. The opposite of truth is false.
3. It is true that the theistic God exists (Beginning of the Universe, Design of the universe, Design of life, and moral law)
4. If God exists, then miracles are possible.
5. Miracles can be used to confirm a message from God.
6. The New Testament is historically reliable as evidenced by early testimony, eyewitness testimony, authentic testimony, and eyewitnesses who were not deceived.
7. The New Testament says Jesus claimed to be God.
8. Jesus' claim to be God was miraculously confirmed by his fulfillment of many prophecies about Himself, his sinless life and miraculous deeds, and his prediction and accomplishment of resurrection.
9. Therefore, Jesus is God.
10. Whatever Jesus (who is God) teaches is true.
11. Jesus taught the Bible is the Word of God.
12. Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God and anything opposed to it is false.


And before attacking the lines of reasoning, I am not suggesting the above points are true by definition. Most of them are premises that I have accepted after examining the evidence. For example, point 3 "It is true that the theistic God exists" isn't true just because somebody told me so. I have good reasons that back up why I believe that is the case. I'm not online here enough to defend each of those and that is not the purpose of this post. It's only to give the defense that my believing in a "holy writing" isn't just because that is what I was taught. As if had I been enlightened enough to know more there is no way I would believe it.

I respect your belief - but of course it is not scientific proof. Number three is assumption.

And the second question: Why the new testament is right one? Perhaps Zeus is the real god and he is laughing like mad while reading this discussion. ;)

I can't explain how all the matter and energy was created. But does any religion explain, how the gods were created? The problem stays the same. You can belief in a god - but you can't proof his existance. But of course, it is not really possible to proof his non-existance. Everyone has to make his own choice.

I respect your belief - but of course it is not scientific proof. Number three is assumption.

And the second question: Why the new testament is right one? Perhaps Zeus is the real god and he is laughing like mad while reading this discussion. ;)

I can't explain how all the matter and energy was created. But does any religion explain, how the gods were created? The problem stays the same. You can belief in a god - but you can't proof his existance. But of course, it is not really possible to proof his non-existance. Everyone has to make his own choice.

Thank you. But number three is not assumption either. It's a conclusion I've made after looking at the information. Have I examined all the evidence? Most probably not. But it seems like the most reasonable conclusion to me.

It's often forgotten that faith is required to believe any worldview - including atheism and pantheism. So there needs to be a point where you've examined enough information to come to a conclusion, even if unanswered questions remain.

The remaining question from a rational viewpoint is who has more evidence for their conclusion? Which conclusion is more reasonable?

It's my position that atheists, who are naturally skeptical of Christianity and other beliefs for that matter, turn out to be true believers in atheism. But if you are honest with the evidence, I believe an atheist needs alot more faith to maintain their atheistic beliefs than Christians need to maintain theirs.

Im Christian, but I wouldnt mind if the real God turned out to be bhudda. I like the whole "Peace and Tranquility" ideals.
Also, to all Atheists- Why wouldnt you want to worship God? One- It helps you enjoy life. At the expense of a few things (drinking, smoking, having sex with every person you can), you have 1. an uplifting feeling in your heart, 2. The knowledge that you will live on after death, in a place much better than earth,
and many more things that i cant think of right now.
And if you just plain dont want to have a religion, fine by me, but dont be walking around going "Ive given up on religion and am therefore smarter than anyone who has a religion, because they are just idiotic sheep believing in a fairy tale"

Why wouldn't one want to worship God? Well, maybe I LIKE those things that God would insist I give up. And I have an uplifting feeling in my heart every time someone smiles at me, or I smell the ocean, or I hear a big old bumble bee buzzing around. The knowledge you speak of concerning life after death is not a given. I know several people who worship God and are not at all sure about any possible after life. I even know one who is so conflicted about it that she has an ulcer. Seems to me that my NOT being so worried about death, and spending more time working on life is a better bet.

Another reason for me not to worship God is the simple fact that I am not willing to give up responsibility for my own life. I make my life what it is, and don't need some invisible Superman to blame, nor one to take credit for my choices. I am me, I like it that way.

As to thinking I am somehow better or smarter than everyone because of my choices, I do not. My father is a retired minister, and I have been around many fine, intelligent theologians most of my life. I know them to be wonderful, smart people with different world views than my own, and I accept that, and they know and accept the same of me. And we often have very enlightening and fascinating discussions about various theological issues. They are not idiotic sheep, their reasons are well thought out and often compelling. It so happens that mine are too. If you always have feelings of inferiority when discussing this issue with an atheist or agnostic, consider that it may not be their fault but yours.

Well, you've left out all the options. As one who believes in the words of one particular "holy book", it's not because I was taught so as a child. It's all quite rational actually. I know there's alot of explanation in between these steps, and I know there's people who may disagree along the way, but my evolution to faith occurred as follows:
1. Truth about reality is knowable
2. The opposite of truth is false.
3. It is true that the theistic God exists (Beginning of the Universe, Design of the universe, Design of life, and moral law)
4. If God exists, then miracles are possible.
5. Miracles can be used to confirm a message from God.
6. The New Testament is historically reliable as evidenced by early testimony, eyewitness testimony, authentic testimony, and eyewitnesses who were not deceived.
7. The New Testament says Jesus claimed to be God.
8. Jesus' claim to be God was miraculously confirmed by his fulfillment of many prophecies about Himself, his sinless life and miraculous deeds, and his prediction and accomplishment of resurrection.
9. Therefore, Jesus is God.
10. Whatever Jesus (who is God) teaches is true.
11. Jesus taught the Bible is the Word of God.
12. Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God and anything opposed to it is false.


And before attacking the lines of reasoning, I am not suggesting the above points are true by definition. Most of them are premises that I have accepted after examining the evidence. For example, point 3 "It is true that the theistic God exists" isn't true just because somebody told me so. I have good reasons that back up why I believe that is the case. I'm not online here enough to defend each of those and that is not the purpose of this post. It's only to give the defense that my believing in a "holy writing" isn't just because that is what I was taught. As if had I been enlightened enough to know more there is no way I would believe it.

I might suggest, if you've left out all the options based on that conclusion, maybe you've left out all the options in other things to consider as well.

If all this works for you, that is a good thing. I think most of it is unsubstantiated conjecture, but since I think the same of God, you shouldn't listen to me. :D

But I have a disproof of item 2.

Sometimes, the opposite of truth is truth. It is true that love is wonderful and easy. It is also true that love is painful and hard.

And a question, one which Jesus posed, and which went unanswered.

"What is truth?"

Why, 'Truth is Beauty, Beauty is truth'

Why, 'Truth is Beauty, Beauty is truth'

Truth is in the eye of the beholder?

I'd say "You bastard! Why didn't you make it easy to tell?"

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.if God did come down and reveal this to me, of course I would have some dialouge with Him. everthing else would be dependant on what He says.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder?

Truth and Beauty are in the eye of the Beer holder. :D

Since this is a Hypothetical Question, I'll give a few Hypothetical Answers.

1) He isn't the real god, no matter how strong the evidence is that he is. The evidence I have that My God is the real one is greater.

2) Regardless of the aparent contradiction, this god is actually One and the Same with the God I've always worshipped.

3) Can't there be more than one real God? Why can't I worship both?

4) I'd call the People with the Staritjackets to gently show this "god" the way to the nearest Mental Ward.

5) I'd enter a Mental Ward myself for Inspection.

Please don't ask me to choose between the above -- I have no way of knowing in advance which one I'd actually choose. Maybe more than one. And please, don't be confused by the fact that they seem to contradict each other.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a christian and Gd is Zeus, or if you're Jewish that God is Quetzalcoal.

Because Allah, Jesus, Yhwh are basically the same god and we are going for the total difference here and not just slight variation. Agreed?

Those are funny examples. Allah is the selfsame deity as Yah/El that Jews and Christians believe in, just as Jesus is only an alleged incarnation of this deity. The difference is only in the interpretation.
It would be much more interesting if Yah and El both would come along together with all the other Sumerian gods.
.

There is no such place, so I am not worried about it.

I'd have a few questions for God, such as:

Is there such a thing as freewill or is my life predetermined?
Why all the suffering? Can't you do anything about that?
You a god? Then smith Bush with lightning! Go on, I'm waiting...

Akela;11702935']Haven't got time for a proper reply, but just so you know, Christian's don't think Jesus is God. They think he's the Lord and the Son of God.

You're wrong! Allah and the God of the Bible are NOT the same God!
1. In the Koran, Allah begat 3 daughters, but no son; in fact, the Koran explicitly instructs Muslims not to say that Allah begat a son.
In the Bible, God most certainly DID beget a son, and His name is Jesus Christ.

2. In the Bible, Jesus Christ taught people to forgive their enemies AND PRACTICED IT HIMSELF.
Mohammed told his followers to kill any and all persons who would not submit to HIM and his god, Allah; his last words were "Allah, kill all the Jews and Christians!", and he wouldn't dare think of even letting his enemies live, never mind forgiving them.

3. Jesus Christ DIED TO SAVE SINNERS; Mohammed never gave up his life for anyone, nor would he ever even think of doing so.

4. "Jesus" is a proper name; "Allah", contrary to what the Muslim world would have you believe, is NOT A PROPER NAME; it means "the god"; i.e., Allah is technically unnamed.

5. God lets people suffer here on earth because he dosen't want them to suffer eternally in HELL.

6. YES, there is such a thing as freewill. Never mind what John Calvin said; he didn't know what he was talking about. You CAN (and SHOULD, and will go to hell if you don't) receive Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

7. In the Bible there IS a literal, physical, burning Hell; Jesus said 3 times of hell, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT quenched," so you'd BETTER worry about it!
The Koran contradicts itself when speaking of hell; in one place it speaks of it as being literal and eternal, as in the Bible; in another it is said to be metaphorical and/or temporary, and remedial rather than punitive.
Why couldn't Mohammed make up his mind?

8. In the Bible, God says no more than one wife at a time.
Mohammed had (and allowed his followers) over a dozen, including A NINE-YEAR-OLD-GIRL (when Mohammed was >50); and HIS OWN DAUGHTER-IN-LAW.

9. Jesus knew when, where, and how He would die, before He died.
Mohammed said, "By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do with me!"

10. Jesus prophesied time and time again, and they all came to pass.
Mohammed never prophesied future events. And yet his followers still call him a "prophet?"

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you're a christian and Gd is Zeus, or if you're Jewish that God is Quetzalcoal.

Because Allah, Jesus, Yhwh are basically the same god and we are going for the total difference here and not just slight variation. Agreed?

Those are funny examples. Allah is the selfsame deity as Yah/El that Jews and Christians believe in, just as Jesus is only an alleged incarnation of this deity. The difference is only in the interpretation.
It would be much more interesting if Yah and El both would come along together with all the other Sumerian gods.
.

There is no such place, so I am not worried about it.

I'd have a few questions for God, such as:

Is there such a thing as freewill or is my life predetermined?
Why all the suffering? Can't you do anything about that?
You a god? Then smith Bush with lightning! Go on, I'm waiting...

Akela;11702935']Haven't got time for a proper reply, but just so you know, Christian's don't think Jesus is God. They think he's the Lord and the Son of God.

You're wrong! Allah and the God of the Bible are NOT the same God!
1. In the Koran, Allah begat 3 daughters, but no son; in fact, the Koran explicitly instructs Muslims not to say that Allah begat a son.
In the Bible, God most certainly DID beget a son, and His name is Jesus Christ.

2. In the Bible, Jesus Christ taught people to forgive their enemies AND PRACTICED IT HIMSELF.
Mohammed told his followers to kill any and all persons who would not submit to HIM and his god, Allah; his last words were "Allah, kill all the Jews and Christians!", and he wouldn't dare think of even letting his enemies live, never mind forgiving them.

3. Jesus Christ DIED TO SAVE SINNERS; Mohammed never gave up his life for anyone, nor would he ever even think of doing so.

4. "Jesus" is a proper name; "Allah", contrary to what the Muslim world would have you believe, is NOT A PROPER NAME; it means "the god"; i.e., Allah is technically unnamed.

5. God lets people suffer here on earth because he dosen't want them to suffer eternally in HELL.

6. YES, there is such a thing as freewill. Never mind what John Calvin said; he didn't know what he was talking about. You CAN (and SHOULD, and will go to hell if you don't) receive Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

7. In the Bible there IS a literal, physical, burning Hell; Jesus said 3 times of hell, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT quenched," so you'd BETTER worry about it!
The Koran contradicts itself when speaking of hell; in one place it speaks of it as being literal and eternal, as in the Bible; in another it is said to be metaphorical and/or temporary, and remedial rather than punitive.
Why couldn't Mohammed make up his mind?

8. In the Bible, God says no more than one wife at a time.
Mohammed had (and allowed his followers) over a dozen, including A NINE-YEAR-OLD-GIRL (when Mohammed was >50); and HIS OWN DAUGHTER-IN-LAW.

9. Jesus knew when, where, and how He would die, before He died.
Mohammed said, "By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do with me!"

10. Jesus prophesied time and time again, and they all came to pass.
Mohammed never prophesied future events. And yet his followers still call him a "prophet?"

11. Jesus most certainly IS God (the Son). God has three persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus were not God, how could He have risen from the grave?

I could go on and on, but I won't bore you more than I may already have. The point I am trying to make is, ALLAH AND JESUS ARE NOT THE SAME GOD!

Allah had three daughters? I'd hit that. :cool:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.

Interesting one. Let me begin by saying I'm an atheist.

If god approached me on the street, I expect I would then accept his existance. However, I don't expect I would convert & worship him. It would really depend on which god he was, I have real issuess with accepting the dogmas & teachings of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism/Christianity/Islam). I just can't see myself suddenly ageeing with their beliefs. If the Bible/Torah/Koran really are the words of god, then they have too many inconsistancies, contradictions & just plain odd things in them. Equally, I don't think it would change my mind about heaven, hell & the afterlife (currently I believe there is none), so that's not even a factor in my thinking.

On the other hand, if it were one of the Norse gods, it may very well be a different scenario. They sound far more interesting! ;)

You're wrong! Allah and the God of the Bible are NOT the same God!
1. In the Koran, Allah begat 3 daughters, but no son; in fact, the Koran explicitly instructs Muslims not to say that Allah begat a son.
In the Bible, God most certainly DID beget a son, and His name is Jesus Christ.
Different views of the same god. If I changes the curtains in my home, it's still the same home. Basically the same applies here.

2. In the Bible, Jesus Christ taught people to forgive their enemies AND PRACTICED IT HIMSELF.
Mohammed told his followers to kill any and all persons who would not submit to HIM and his god, Allah; his last words were "Allah, kill all the Jews and Christians!", and he wouldn't dare think of even letting his enemies live, never mind forgiving them.
You fail at Muslim conprehension. Mohammed went so far as to say that Christians and Jews were their brothers who are just misguided. He advocated tolerance and understanding towards them.

3. Jesus Christ DIED TO SAVE SINNERS; Mohammed never gave up his life for anyone, nor would he ever even think of doing so.
IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE. Otherwise, Jesus just had a massive masochist complex. And I'm really curious as to how you came about your knowledge of what Mohammed thought. 'cause I'm hearing contradictory version of what he thought from all over the place. Nevermind the fact that we can't possibly know what he thought without being him.

4. "Jesus" is a proper name; "Allah", contrary to what the Muslim world would have you believe, is NOT A PROPER NAME; it means "the god"; i.e., Allah is technically unnamed.
What this has got to do with anything?

5. God lets people suffer here on earth because he dosen't want them to suffer eternally in HELL.
If, you know, your version of God is the correct one.

6. YES, there is such a thing as freewill. Never mind what John Calvin said; he didn't know what he was talking about. You CAN (and SHOULD, and will go to hell if you don't) receive Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.
If, you know, your version of God is the correct one.

7. In the Bible there IS a literal, physical, burning Hell; Jesus said 3 times of hell, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT quenched," so you'd BETTER worry about it!
If, you know, your version of God is the correct one.

The Koran contradicts itself when speaking of hell; in one place it speaks of it as being literal and eternal, as in the Bible; in another it is said to be metaphorical and/or temporary, and remedial rather than punitive.
Why couldn't Mohammed make up his mind?
It is a eternal place used temporarily by soul as a remedial mean. There, both are correct. It took me twenty second to remedy that particular problem. Anything else that easy to solve?

8. In the Bible, God says no more than one wife at a time.
Mohammed had (and allowed his followers) over a dozen, including A NINE-YEAR-OLD-GIRL (when Mohammed was >50); and HIS OWN DAUGHTER-IN-LAW.
God said no such thing. Cite a verse right now to back up your statements and I'm betting dollars to donut we can find another verse to show that God allowed polygamy. Besides, that is different views of how god operates. It doesn't mean it is a different god, it just mean that when viewing a glass half-full, some will say it is half-empty.

9. Jesus knew when, where, and how He would die, before He died.
Mohammed said, "By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do with me!"
so? What has this got to do with anything? It would be contradictory only if Jesus and Mohammed were the same person.

10. Jesus prophesied time and time again, and they all came to pass.
Mohammed never prophesied future events. And yet his followers still call him a "prophet?"
You fail at koran study. Mohammed made many predictions and they all came to pass if you read the Koran.

11. Jesus most certainly IS God (the Son). God has three persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus were not God, how could He have risen from the grave?
If, you know, your version of God is the correct one.
If, you know, the bible is accurate.
And if, you know, there's no other explanation like Voodoo zombi, Jesus was an alien or any other quack theory.

I could go on and on, but I won't bore you more than I may already have. The point I am trying to make is, ALLAH AND JESUS ARE NOT THE SAME GOD!
Whatever helps you sleep at night. They are and any scholar that has studied judaic religion will tell you the same.

You're wrong! Allah and the God of the Bible are NOT the same God!
1. In the Koran, Allah begat 3 daughters, but no son; in fact, the Koran explicitly instructs Muslims not to say that Allah begat a son.
In the Bible, God most certainly DID beget a son, and His name is Jesus Christ.

2. In the Bible, Jesus Christ taught people to forgive their enemies AND PRACTICED IT HIMSELF.
Mohammed told his followers to kill any and all persons who would not submit to HIM and his god, Allah; his last words were "Allah, kill all the Jews and Christians!", and he wouldn't dare think of even letting his enemies live, never mind forgiving them.

3. Jesus Christ DIED TO SAVE SINNERS; Mohammed never gave up his life for anyone, nor would he ever even think of doing so.

4. "Jesus" is a proper name; "Allah", contrary to what the Muslim world would have you believe, is NOT A PROPER NAME; it means "the god"; i.e., Allah is technically unnamed.

5. God lets people suffer here on earth because he dosen't want them to suffer eternally in HELL.

6. YES, there is such a thing as freewill. Never mind what John Calvin said; he didn't know what he was talking about. You CAN (and SHOULD, and will go to hell if you don't) receive Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

7. In the Bible there IS a literal, physical, burning Hell; Jesus said 3 times of hell, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT quenched," so you'd BETTER worry about it!
The Koran contradicts itself when speaking of hell; in one place it speaks of it as being literal and eternal, as in the Bible; in another it is said to be metaphorical and/or temporary, and remedial rather than punitive.
Why couldn't Mohammed make up his mind?

8. In the Bible, God says no more than one wife at a time.
Mohammed had (and allowed his followers) over a dozen, including A NINE-YEAR-OLD-GIRL (when Mohammed was >50); and HIS OWN DAUGHTER-IN-LAW.

9. Jesus knew when, where, and how He would die, before He died.
Mohammed said, "By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do with me!"

10. Jesus prophesied time and time again, and they all came to pass.
Mohammed never prophesied future events. And yet his followers still call him a "prophet?"

By this reasoning Jews are also worshipping some other God. They're not. They are both simply worshipping God the Father. They don't believe in the other persons of the trinity which is why I see both religions as incomplete. But we're all still playing on the same team. Definitely the same God.

You're wrong! Allah and the God of the Bible are NOT the same God!
1. In the Koran, Allah begat 3 daughters, but no son; in fact, the Koran explicitly instructs Muslims not to say that Allah begat a son.
In the Bible, God most certainly DID beget a son, and His name is Jesus Christ.

Which means precisely that Muslims do not believe Jesus was the son of God. Christians do. All that proves is they have different beliefs, not different Gods.

2. In the Bible, Jesus Christ taught people to forgive their enemies AND PRACTICED IT HIMSELF.
Mohammed told his followers to kill any and all persons who would not submit to HIM and his god, Allah; his last words were "Allah, kill all the Jews and Christians!", and he wouldn't dare think of even letting his enemies live, never mind forgiving them. I think you would REALLY have to provide text to prove this one... my understanding is that you are quite wrong about it.

3. Jesus Christ DIED TO SAVE SINNERS; Mohammed never gave up his life for anyone, nor would he ever even think of doing so. Again, this is according to Christians that Jesus did this. The crucifixion myth may not be true... And Mohammed is a different guy, he is NOT Jesus. Why would he have to give up his life? How would that have any bearing on whether God and Allah are the same? And where is it written that Mohammed says "I won't give up my life for anyone, so don't ask"?
4. "Jesus" is a proper name; "Allah", contrary to what the Muslim world would have you believe, is NOT A PROPER NAME; it means "the god"; i.e., Allah is technically unnamed. OK, so you call God God, and Muslims call God THE God and that makes him a different God? Other cultures choose not to pronounce the name of God. Heck, the Hebrew name for God is not pronounced, as I recall, and if you are trying to say that the Hebrew God and the Christian God are not the same fellow, you may have a long way to go on that one. And if your argument is that he has a different moniker and so can't be the same God, remember that in different languages, God has different names. Also, Jesus is the proper name of the son of God, just as Mohammed is the proper name of the prophet of Allah. But God is still just called by the generic word god. Does God have an actual name? Maybe we should start calling him Harvey.
5. God lets people suffer here on earth because he dosen't want them to suffer eternally in HELL.And what has that to do with your premise? Aside from the fact that it is a rather unpleasant and nasty thing for God to do, it does nothing to prove that God and Allah are not the same.
6. YES, there is such a thing as freewill. Never mind what John Calvin said; he didn't know what he was talking about. You CAN (and SHOULD, and will go to hell if you don't) receive Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.In your opinion Calvin was wrong. OK, I am not all that fond of much of what he said either. Doesn't prove anything about Allah and God, however. And your example is another of the reasons why God is a big old bastard, but that doesn't prove a difference either.
7. In the Bible there IS a literal, physical, burning Hell; Jesus said 3 times of hell, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT quenched," so you'd BETTER worry about it!
The Koran contradicts itself when speaking of hell; in one place it speaks of it as being literal and eternal, as in the Bible; in another it is said to be metaphorical and/or temporary, and remedial rather than punitive.
Why couldn't Mohammed make up his mind?The Bible and the Koran are both full of fiction. Sometimes storytellers use metaphors, flowery language and hyperbole to get their points across. And how does the fact that TWO DIFFERENT BOOKS have different stories go towards proving God is not Allah? Heck, in the Bible, stories are told different ways in different gospels, but that doesn't mean that each story is about a different God, does it?
8. In the Bible, God says no more than one wife at a time.
Mohammed had (and allowed his followers) over a dozen, including A NINE-YEAR-OLD-GIRL (when Mohammed was >50); and HIS OWN DAUGHTER-IN-LAW.Errr... so what? What does that prove? That you don't approve of Mohammed's lifestyle? Where does God say that? And again, how does this go towards proving your point?
9. Jesus knew when, where, and how He would die, before He died.
Mohammed said, "By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do with me!"Already dealt with. Mohammed is NOT JESUS.
10. Jesus prophesied time and time again, and they all came to pass.
Mohammed never prophesied future events. And yet his followers still call him a "prophet?"Errr... nope. Mohammed was a prophet. He did make prophesies. And he was not, as has been previously noted, Jesus. Again, no proof of your point.
11. Jesus most certainly IS God (the Son). God has three persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus were not God, how could He have risen from the grave?
You believe it is true, and that is swell, carry on with that. Doesn't prove a darned thing. Doesn't even prove itself, but that is not the point. All this one says is that you, personally, are Christian.
I could go on and on, but I won't bore you more than I may already have. The point I am trying to make is, ALLAH AND JESUS ARE NOT THE SAME GOD!
Why is it such a big deal for you that they not be the same? They certainly ARE the same, come from the same origins, have the exact same early history. Read the old Testament and you can see the story of where they split off BOTH FROM THE SAME GOD. It is in your bible... so it must be true.

Thanks Upper Botswavia for commenting on what I didn't talke about.

Comparisons of Mohammed and Jesus are definitely not valid in the way he was using them because NO RELIGION that I know of thinks Mohammed is God. Jesus...some people think he's God, Moslems and some Jews think he was a nice guy and a prophet.

Interestingly some Islamic countries have banned the Passion of the Christ film, not because it is Christian, but because depiction of any prophet is forbidden so you're not even supposed to have pictures of Jesus because he's also a prophet.

Messianic Jews see The Father not changing from Judaism into Christianity and, of course, the Old Testament is the background for The New Testament understanding of God.

Yet there are also Muslims who have read through the Injil and who have accepted Jesus as God and Savior and view Allah as "The Father" in the trinity (although, as has already been established, "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God").

I agree that these three faith systems have different understandings of The Father according to the revelation they accept as truth, but I certainly accept that all three faiths worship the same God. All three faiths accept the Old Testament as part of their sacred writings. The clarity comes in knowing that all three faiths would disagree that the others understanding and worship of that same God is complete in a salvific sense. Indeed, the three faith systems all believe that salvation is not found outside of their faith system.

Interesting. Lets debate this a little, why would you believe in more then one God when each God says that there is no other God(s) then I (us)?

I only know of one who says that, I assume he is lying due to being "a jellous god".

Unless there really is one true God who doesn't take too kindly to worshipping other stuff. Then you're screwed.

Then I take the Jesse Custer route. If that SOB IS responsible then he needs to be held responsible for what he's done.

Then I take the Jesse Custer route. If that SOB IS responsible then he needs to be held responsible for what he's done.

Oh really? And if we're the ones who broke it, is this not like blameshifting? If I were a Creator and my creation started saying slop about me and pointing their finger in my face - that's a creation I think I would have every right to crush. Yet even with that right, it appears that if this God exists He is merciful towards us.

I only know of one who says that, I assume he is lying due to being "a jellous god".

If it true that there is a one true God, then the comparison to what you just said would be four people claiming my husband is theirs and I say, "back off!" You would say, well you're just lying he's your husband because you're jealous of these other buxom suitors. No, if he is indeed my husband, you don't know what you're talking about.

If it true that there is a one true God, then the comparison to what you just said would be four people claiming my husband is theirs and I say, "back off!"


Ah, but in that case wouldn't they be imaginary people?

Ah, but in that case wouldn't they be imaginary people?

Nicely done! :D

Ah, but in that case wouldn't they be imaginary people?

I believe the corresponding analogy makes them imaginary, but not everyone does. The point of the analogy was if there is one truth, others claiming to be one truth doesn't make that one truth wrong. It also doesn't make those other truths to a degree right. It makes for one truth and others that are either liars or disillusioned.

*snip*
Stop questioning. BELIEVE
*snip*

Uh-huh. I see. And the next pronouncement after "stop questioning -- believe" is usually something like "seig heil", or "give me your money", or something similarly coercive. No -- I believe, all right. I believe I'll keep questioning.

Here's one for you, pal.

Fossils.

Got an answer for that?

Uh-huh. I see. And the next pronouncement after "stop questioning -- believe" is usually something like "seig heil", or "give me your money", or something similarly coercive. No -- I believe, all right. I believe I'll keep questioning.

Here's one for you, pal.

Fossils.

Got an answer for that?

Silly Intangelon, if God could create you, don't you think he could sculpt a few bones and make them look really old? ;)

Uh-huh. I see. And the next pronouncement after "stop questioning -- believe" is usually something like "seig heil", or "give me your money", or something similarly coercive. No -- I believe, all right. I believe I'll keep questioning.

Here's one for you, pal.

Fossils.

Got an answer for that?

Sure, God created the universe, he created mankind in his image, and when animals and plants died their matter was slowly displaced by minerals leaving an impression that we found later in sedimentary rocks.




Sorry for being such a smarmy bastard.

Sure, God created the universe, he created mankind in his image, and when animals and plants died their matter was slowly displaced by minerals leaving an impression that we found later in sedimentary rocks.




Sorry for being such a smarmy bastard.

LOL.

But all of that answer involved SOMEBODY asking questions about how fossils are created... Sol wouldn't LIKE that.

Ok. Lets say you're walking an NO GOD appears, ever. Do you keep believing in the god you were indoctrinated to believe in, or do you come to terms with the fact the THERE IS NO GOD. Sheesh

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life. God created YOU. End of story. Stop questioning. BELIEVE, some things cannot be explained by the athiests in lab coats, they often contradict each other.
Heh this is exactly the same as my post, except mine is a negative assertion based on a lack of evidence, and yours is a positive assertion, also based on a complete lack of evidence. I trust you've heard of the 'teapot theory'...

If someone walked up to me and told me that he/she was a god, I sure wouldnt listen to that person.

If someone walked up to me and told me that he/she was a god, I sure wouldnt listen to that person.

But remember, if someone asks you if you are a god, you should say yes. ;)

But remember, if someone asks you if you are a god, you should say yes. ;)

Then....DIE
-Ghoser

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500255

Isnpiried by this thread, I just have to make this hypothetical questions. This should be alot of fun.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.

Eh I would convert, don't want to piss off something that can smite me.


are you disrespecting my god of peace?

if so...i will blow you up....murder your kids...ad nauseam..


i am really starting to like agnostics.

Lets say you were walking alone one day, and then God approaches you, however it's not the God that you've been taught to worship and have faith in. In fact God suscribe to another religion all together, what would you do? Like, let's say you're a Christian, and God is Allah. Or if you're Jewish and God is Jesus etc.


I'd advise you to take your medication.

But remember, if someone asks you if you are a god, you should say yes. ;)
Obviously, no need to lie to people.

BOW TO ME!

I believe the corresponding analogy makes them imaginary, but not everyone does. The point of the analogy was if there is one truth, others claiming to be one truth doesn't make that one truth wrong. It also doesn't make those other truths to a degree right. It makes for one truth and others that are either liars or disillusioned.

See others DON'T claim to be "one truth" they claim to be ALSO true.

Hey, me and my God are totally cool. I talked to him this weekend. He came over, we played some Xbox360, we both swapped stories about girls we had slept with, and we all had a big laugh over that whole hurricane Katrina thing. That Ray Nagin is a NUT! Pricless...

*Priceless - Maybe I should pray for spelling skills.

*Priceless - Maybe I should pray for spelling skills.

My prayers will be with you.