NationStates Jolt Archive

The title says it all.

I've heard that one of the mods, Melkor Unchained, is a master debator.

Myself I'm more of a cunning linguist.

Stop groaning. If I hadn't, someone else would have.

<insert sex pun here>

look!

I'm witty!

;)

<insert sex pun here>

look!

I'm witty!

;)

Hehehe... insert. :D

I've got too short of a temper to even consider myself on the list of the best. If I get going, I'll just toss out any research and be an ass.

The poll is finally complete.

<insert sex pun here>

look!

I'm witty!

;)

*high fives*

Some of our best debators, like The Cat-Tribe and Sinuhue aren't around much these days, but I'd say Bottle, or Nue Leonstein.

I've heard that one of the mods, Melkor Unchained, is a master debator.

Myself I'm more of a cunning linguist.

Stop groaning. If I hadn't, someone else would have.

If Melky is a master Debator, then I am the Mistress of the Master!, I pwned Melkor :p

I'll just say that most of the mods here have argument and debate skills, which is good and helps regarding the crowd control. Melky wasn't one of them, actually. Katganistan, Tactical Grace, and Erastide seems to be able to crush most peoples arguments in a pair of phrases,hitting the bulleye in the first attempt. (Of course, noone baits, flame or harass them when they fell cornered, or at least not THAT often). Actually I find awesome that they can debate with a select choice of 5-9 words and entirely make their point clear.

Several "agenda" people are actually good at debate, and pull out surprising resorts when cornered. The problem is that they become predictable with time, thus easily to "overcome". (If any, I defend the point that the only way to "defeat" someone in an argument on NSG is recognition of defeat).

For the rest, everyone makes good and bad arguments. The more personal and touching the issue, the worse is the argument presented. Gays and homophobes cannot argue over gay marriage, for example, they just shout (not in the literal sense).

I am too emotional to declare myself as an outstanding mistress of debate, although as is natural, I manage to fare better in real life, as my strong points are tone of voice, attitude and non verbal language. I have embarrased politicians in public, and that is enough for my standards.

Wow. I'm honoured I'm even on that list beside those luminaries. I can't really believe that.

.....

In fact, I'm more amazed that I'm actually known.

Edit:
For me on that particular list, it's a tie between The Nazz, Neu Leonstein and Deep Kimchi- even though I don't necessarily agree with all of them, they hold their points and argue them expertly.

If Melky is a master Debator, then I am the Mistress of the Master!, I pwned Melkor :p

Shhh! Don't bring the Angry One down upon us!

The Nazz? Deep Kimchi is better than decent, true, but Nazz just nods after Deep Kimchi states something, I think you should remove him from that poll.

I nominate said Tactical Grace and Katganistan. And Scolopendra even if he do not come around here a lot.

In fact, I'm more amazed that I'm actually known.

I'm amazed too. :)

Wow. I'm honoured I'm even on that list beside those luminaries. I can't really believe that.

.....

In fact, I'm more amazed that I'm actually known.

Why is that? From what I've seen, you're a very skilled debator.

Shhh! Don't bring the Angry One down upon us!

He wouldn't dare to pull out that "Angry One" crap with me. I'm his sugar mommy.

What, no Ny Nordland? According to him, he's always been right.

If Melky is a master Debator, then I am the Mistress of the Master!, I pwned Melkor :p


Not that I've ever seen. Delusions of grandeur do not constitute pwnage!

haven't really been around long enough to get to know any of the people on the list

In the absence of Cat-Tribe, I guess I would have to go with Bottle.

Grave_n_Idle will always be a favorite too though.


this is one poll that I am not suprised that I was not included in, I haven't debated in months. ;)

He wouldn't dare to pull out that "Angry One" crap with me. I'm his sugar mommy.

You poor thing. ;)

What, no Ny Nordland? According to him, he's always been right.



Not that I've ever seen. Delusions of grandeur do not constitute pwnage!

You haven't witnessed an argument between Morgoth and I, I am pretty sure of that, unless I know you under a different name. I can bring you witnesses of my pwnage, although.

In the absence of Cat-Tribe, I guess I would have to go with Bottle.

Grave_n_Idle will always be a favorite too though.


this is one poll that I am not suprised that I was not included in, I haven't debated in months. ;)

The Cat-Tribe doesn't seem to be active anymore, hence his/her exclusion from the poll. Then again, M.U. hasn't been around in awhile, so putting him on the poll is also kind of iffy.

I've heard that one of the mods, Melkor Unchained, is a master debator.

I hear this in every one of these polls. I have yet to see it.

And that's all I'll say on that subject, as talking about someone who can't read my posts (I assume he still can't, anyways) isn't nice.

The Nazz? Deep Kimchi is better than decent, true, but Nazz just nods after Deep Kimchi states something, I think you should remove him from that poll.

I nominate said Tactical Grace and Katganistan. And Scolopendra even if he do not come around here a lot.

You've seriously got me mixed up with someone else.

I've got too short of a temper to even consider myself on the list of the best. If I get going, I'll just toss out any research and be an ass.

I think you're a damn good debator. As for the temper thing, rare indeed is the NSGer who has never lost his/her temper.

...it's me, isn't it?

No, wait - I'm the best at masturbating. Right.

What was I thinking?

Sdaeriji was also grand when he got going, which wasn't that often.

And Swimmingpool had his convincing moments.

Though he's not here much, Intagelon always strikes my interest.

You've seriously got me mixed up with someone else.

I think that Aelosia is trying to bait you with that.

You haven't witnessed an argument between Morgoth and I, I am pretty sure of that, unless I know you under a different name. I can bring you witnesses of my pwnage, although.

I was Santa Barbara/Trostia in earlier forum incarnations.

Melkor is, in my opinion, the best of the debaters on NSG, for several reasons. He's got discretion, he's smart, he knows his stuff, and he is very good at conveying what he wants to say.

In the absence of Cat-Tribe, I guess I would have to go with Bottle.

Grave_n_Idle will always be a favorite too though.


this is one poll that I am not suprised that I was not included in, I haven't debated in months. ;)

You Gravy baby and Bottle and Cat-Tribe are all tops in my book

Me.

IRL, I'm a pimp. Not so much online. I usually have good points, I just can't back them up. I do well when I have strong allies to back me up (see "Liberals and Islam (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500133)").

Melkor is, in my opinion, the best of the debaters on NSG, for several reasons. He's got discretion, he's smart, he knows his stuff, and he is very good at conveying what he wants to say.

I think he's a bit too angry, and definately not upen enough to be trully great. He gets cocky and starts raging.

Melkor is, in my opinion, the best of the debaters on NSG, for several reasons. He's got discretion, he's smart, he knows his stuff, and he is very good at conveying what he wants to say.

Wow, Melkor seems different here than in the Nationstates forums...

And...perhaps I mixed Nazz with someone else?

And I cannot remember any Santa Barbara/Trostia in the #nationstates channel, when Melkor was around...

For me, as someone has in the signature, Bottle is as subtle as a mad bull in a library. She knows how to fend off, but in a very blunt way.

I swear I wasn't baiting, Kimchi, I thought he was the chief nodder of the group that post always after you...

IRL, I'm a pimp. Not so much online. I usually have good points, I just can't back them up. I do well when I have strong allies to back me up (see "Liberals and Islam (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500133)").

:D
Are you serious?

You win the thread![/sarcasm]

And I cannot remember any Santa Barbara/Trostia in the #nationstates channel, when Melkor was around...

I was referring to Nationstates General, as in this forum, not IRC.

I was only in nationstates IRC channels a few times before I grew out of it.

Wow, Melkor seems different here than in the Nationstates forums...

And...perhaps I mixed Nazz with someone else?

And I cannot remember any Santa Barbara/Trostia in the #nationstates channel, when Melkor was around...

For me, as someone has in the signature, Bottle is as subtle as a mad bull in a library. She knows how to fend off, but in a very blunt way.

I swear I wasn't baiting, Kimchi, I thought he was the chief nodder of the group that post always after you...
DK and I agree on something about once a month, and it's almost never politics, which is what we both primarily post about, so yeah, you've got me mixed up with someone else. It's all good, though. I never figured you were baiting me.

And...perhaps I mixed Nazz with someone else?


I swear I wasn't baiting, Kimchi, I thought he was the chief nodder of the group that post always after you...

You couldn't have been more off.

I would go with (old and new) Nazz, Bottle, Cat-Tribe, Steph and Zepp.

DK and I agree on something about once a month, and it's almost never politics, which is what we both primarily post about, so yeah, you've got me mixed up with someone else. It's all good, though. I never figured you were baiting me.

I have immense respect for you as a debater as well.

DK and I agree on something about once a month, and it's almost never politics, which is what we both primarily post about, so yeah, you've got me mixed up with someone else. It's all good, though. I never figured you were baiting me.

Commie symp.

There, I'll bet you never figured I'd try baiting you...

*laughs*

I think he's a bit too angry, and definately not upen enough to be trully great. He gets cocky and starts raging.

Many posters do.

I go with Melkor, followed by everyone else.

I was referring to Nationstates General, as in this forum, not IRC.

I was only in nationstates IRC channels a few times before I grew out of it.

I hardly had any arguments with Melkor around here. I began to post in these forums after he left during his possession of Dawn of War. That was why I was asking.

Commie symp.

There, I'll bet you never figured I'd try baiting you...

*laughs*
Nope, but I've always wished you would date me. ;) :D

You've seriously got me mixed up with someone else.

he seriously has deep kimchi mixed up with someone else too.

You Gravy baby and Bottle and Cat-Tribe are all tops in my book

I know you're not talking about me, but in the true spirit of an NS debate I'm going to interpret it to be about me anyways :p

So thanks ;)

Ahem.

Best debator: Neu Leonstein. Much respect :)

Nope, but I've always wished you would date me. ;) :D

One of these days, sweetie. I've got the best of both worlds, after all... *grins lasciviously*

...and I even voted for you, too.

One of these days, sweetie. I've got the best of both worlds, after all... *grins lasciviously*ooh ooh ! I got to talk to Lascivious Max. yesterday! (sorry about the irrelevancy)

And, Dobbs, you've got my respect as well.

ooh ooh ! I got to talk to Lascivious Max. yesterday! (sorry about the irrelevancy)

C'mon, this is NSG, since when did relevancy ever matter? :D

Me.

The oft banned Iakeo.

Look me up..! :D

(( Look me up by the text "-Iakeo" in the body, as I'm so often banned. ))


-Iakeo

Melkor is, in my opinion, the best of the debaters on NSG ...He's usually very well informed & I even tend to agree with him, but he isn't a very good debator. Not on here anyway. He's much too easily frustrated & prone to bringing his position as mod to bear. A pitty, since I'd otherwise have nothing but high praise for him.

Dempublicents, Grave & idle and Tactical Grace are the best right now in my opinion. Others are good on particular subjects, like The NAZZ & Straughn, but that probably goes for all of us.

And, Dobbs, you've got my respect as well.

:confused:

Whatever the Hell have I ever done to warrant that?

Was it all those amusing Tom Tomorrow cartoons I routinely post?

C'mon, this is NSG, since when did relevancy ever matter? :D

In that case, I'll have you know that you must read 'Everything is Illuminated"
NOW.

Hmmm.

Bodies Without Organs, Bottle, Xenophobialand, Our Earth, Niccolo Medici, and Spiritual Anarchy from the old guard.

The Cat-Tribe, The Nazz, Deep Kimchi, Soheran, and a few others from more recent times.

:D
Are you serious?

You win the thread![/sarcasm]

Oratory skills don't really work when you're typing.

:confused:

Whatever the Hell have I ever done to warrant that?

Was it all those amusing Tom Tomorrow cartoons I routinely post?

Duh!

I think Neu Leonstein, Cabra West, and Sarkhaan are pretty good.

Some of our best debators, like The Cat-Tribe and Sinuhue aren't around much these days, but I'd say Bottle, or Nue Leonstein.

Definitely Bottle! :cool:

Debate is a three step process. First, you have to clearly communicate your position, and if necessary, clarify it. I'm very good at that. Second, is defending your opinion. I'm very good at that too. Third is refuting the opinion of your opponent. I'm not so good at that. Unfortunately, I'm all too willing to let people remain wrong. ;)

Neu Leonstein is very good.

In any debate, I find the most compelling debators to be the ones who concern themselves not with being persuasive, but with being right.

Debate is a three step process. First, you have to clearly communicate your position, and if necessary, clarify it. I'm very good at that. Second, is defending your opinion. I'm very good at that too. Third is refuting the opinion of your opponent. I'm not so good at that. Unfortunately, I'm all too willing to let people remain wrong. ;)
We should team up. Refutation is the only thing I'm good at.

1. Bottle
2. Cat-Tribe
3. Everyone else

Me.

The oft banned Iakeo.

Look me up..! :D

(( Look me up by the text "-Iakeo" in the body, as I'm so often banned. ))


-Iakeo

No need to look you up. I remember. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7399134&postcount=2)

From the poll, I picked Soheran, but AnarchyEl, Neu Leonstein, Andaluciae, Vetalia, Grave_n_Idle, Bottle, and Muravyets are also good, among others, and also Free Soviets, when he debates.

From the poll, I picked Soheran, but AnarchyEl, Neu Leonstein, Andaluciae, Vetalia, Grave_n_Idle, Bottle, and Muravyets are also good, among others.

Don't forget yourself :D

I always enjoy watching Bottle in action.

When it comes to energy, PsychoticDan by a mile. I also see Soheran as a great debator on other issues.

No need to look you up. I remember. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7399134&postcount=2)

Oh! OH! The tears.... mmm, the tears taste so good. Mmm. :D :D

Debate is a three step process. First, you have to clearly communicate your position, and if necessary, clarify it. I'm very good at that. Second, is defending your opinion. I'm very good at that too. Third is refuting the opinion of your opponent. I'm not so good at that. Unfortunately, I'm all too willing to let people remain wrong. ;)

No,.. Loon's great,.. at all of it..!

My problem is I tend to (as with nearly everything) do it in reverse.

First I refute,.. usually by simple contradiction.

Then I make seemingly undefensible statements, in hopes of annoying and enticing my "prey" into hurling things at me.

Then I actually get down to the conversation, with it's back and forth, doing A LOT of agreeing, but in ways that SEEM disagreeable.


I, unlike Loon, have a more difficult time letting people remain wrong,.. which means that I tend to be the last to respond,.. unless I can't respond for being banned again.


-Iakeo

Since the Cat Tribe seems to be gone; I would offer Vitalia

He backs his arguments and can admit defeat.

His Grace The Cat Tribe, KG, OM, &c.

Unmatched in NSG's history in terms of intellect and rigor in debate. CT, if you are out there, you are missed.

Don't forget yourself :DWhy thank you. It's good to be recognized.

...No, this isn't a tear of joy, I have something in my eye...

I always enjoy watching Bottle in action.

Filth.

It's been a long time since I debated on this forum at all, but The Cat-Tribe was always brilliant.

Corneliu was an incredibly skillful debator.

I still have nightmares from his infamous "Corneliu maneuver". :(

I still have nightmares from his infamous "Corneliu maneuver". :(
You mean his combo of these two:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

I think Bodies without Organs is quite the debator in my opinion.

Of the list, Bodies Without Organs. I don't recall ever debating him, but seeing him in action is an exceptional sight.

As for those not on the list, AnarchyeL, one of the only people on NS who's significantly brought my opinion towards his point of view on a political subject (and he managed this twice), and Vetalia, exceptionally informed and consistently reasonable.

That is not at all a comprehensive list.

Of course Bottle is in the top or three. I'm surprised he's not on the poll. I think he would get a good number of votes. I used to be half good at least on the Palestine issue but then I started drinking:p

You mean his combo of these two:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

Wow. That site is hilarious and awesome.

Of course Bottle is in the top or three. I'm surprised he's not on the poll. I think he would get a good number of votes. I used to be half good at least on the Palestine issue but then I started drinking:p

Bottle is female, and would certainly get my vote as well (which is why I voted other).

Soheran is an exellent example of a debator who's very good, argues points against me, and remains very convincing. Neo Leonstein always comes across as being well informed and moderate (and thus, I don't believe I've ever debated against him.)

Vetalia just astounds me with his economic acumen. I dare not debate the numbers with that fella....

It's been a long time since I debated on this forum at all, but The Cat-Tribe was always brilliant.

Cat-Tribe wrote legal briefs for NS, and most of them were insanely thorough.

Bottle is female, and would certainly get my vote as well (which is why I voted other).

I thought he was a bisexual male

Has anyone mentioned Dissonant Cognition yet?
(S)he is very good.

I thought he was a bisexual male

Nope. Bisexual female, who tends to have more relationships with men for various reasons, from what she's said before.

Has anyone mentioned Dissonant Cognition yet?
(S)he is very good.

DC is pretty good, yeah.

I thought he was a bisexual male

Nope, bisexual (I think) female.

Nope. Bisexual female, who tends to have more relationships with men for various reasons, from what she's said before.



DC is pretty good, yeah.

no shit, you learn something everyday. I could have sworn she was a guy but thanks for clearing that up.

Hmmm... I didn't think anyone even remembered my name much less would put me in a poll. It looks like someone even voted for me.

Tactical Grace or Alien Born (AB again) are the two debators who have most continuously impressed me :) (edit: and for the most part Melkor)

there are many other good debators (including my own Glitziness ;)) but i may simply not have been engaged in debates with others as much... (or agree with them :p)

Tactical Grace or Alien Born (AB again) are the two debators who have most continuously impressed me :)

I always enjoyed Alien Born's posts, even when debating him. He seems to be less active with AB again, and that's too bad.

In fact, I'm more amazed that I'm actually known.


Dude, your one of the few people who will make me look at a thread just for posting on it

others are:
Nazz
TG
Deep kimchi
Katganistan

also the trolls...(you know who you are)

Soheran is really good, as is Vetalia.

Niccolo Medici

yeah he was good.


as for myself, at least i get on the occasional popularity/niceness poll :p (:()



edit:
I always enjoyed Alien Born's posts, even when debating him. He seems to be less active with AB again, and that's too bad.

he's very good... i've always found it thoroughly difficult debating against him

Of the fervent communists, I would hand my vote to Jello Biafra. He does sometimes make assumptions about what I'm trying to say, but he's usually willing to work within the contraints of my specific point.

Myself....Bitch.

Myself....Bitch.

I sincerely doubt that.

You can't discriminate the word "me" from "myself" or use it correctly.

Clear, correct, precise language is necessary in the 'best debater on NSG.'


"By using a reflexive pronoun where I shouldn't have, I shot myself in the foot. I suppose the 'best debater on NSG award won't go to me"

I voted for Nazz, as the best option on the poll, but I think Tactical Grace takes the cup...

Debating?

There's no debating on here. It's just a vaguely organised shouting match. :p

Debating?

There's no debating on here. It's just a vaguely organised shouting match. :p

Hehe. A lot of it is a mostly disorganized bunch of folks talking past each other, and has been for the past few years, in my opinion.

But on occasion there are genuine debates, and I enjoy those very much. :)

I think Neu Leonstein, Cabra West, and Sarkhaan are pretty good.

I got mentioned?!

*dances naked*

um...anyway...

my list would have to be Cat Tribe, Stephistan, The Nazz, Grave n Idle, Bottle, and NERVUN
Cat Tribe...well, who else was that thorough and able to crush people with a single post?
Steph...she just was bad ass.
The Nazz, I don't think I've disagreed with yet, but enjoy watching him tear some people to shreds
GnI, despite the fact that we don't always agree, is probably the best person to discuss a point of view with rather than scream back and forth. Probably also the first person on here to get me to change my pov on something
Bottle gave me quite the spanking one time...granted, that was my worst debate ever, but still.
NER...well, we can now alternate education threads.

Vetalia.

Then again, I haven't wandered into a serious thread for weeks.

Look at how the names change. I'd have nominated Cat Tribe, Jocabia, and some others that I can't remember, before I named any of these bums. :)

Me followed by DCD and Pancake.

Well I have to go with Deep Kimici ( i know I've spelt it wrong!) Rambling the same point over and over again doesn't make you a good debater, but finding new ways to do so does! Only kidding, I think DK always posts good threads and has interesting stuff to say even if I don't agree with it all the time!

Well, I'd say me but I'm a bit of a showoff (QED this message) :p

AnarchyeL
Dissonant Cognition
Jello Biafra
Free Soviets

Although we always disagree, it's NL. He should have been in the poll.

He's usually very well informed & I even tend to agree with him, but he isn't a very good debator. Not on here anyway. He's much too easily frustrated & prone to bringing his position as mod to bear. A pitty, since I'd otherwise have nothing but high praise for him.
It's not so much that I'm "easily frustrated" it's that I already [i]am frustrated with the opposition, generally, before the debate begins. If I come across as jaded or cynical [which I do] it's because I've heard what you're saying nearly word for word already, and for the most part debates here follow a formula which is roughly as follows:

Thesis -> Supporting Point -> Counterpoint -> Repeat x2 or x3 -> Request for Clarification -> Sidetrack -> Original Supporting Point -> Original Thesis.

When the formula reaches its conclusion I tend to lose patience rapidly. For the most part, people I've debated here have resorted--after a couple of pages of back and forth--to hurling their thesis at me over and over again, seemingly unaware of the fact that said thesis was what started the discussion, and repeating it does nothing to bring the discussion to a reasonable close. It also doesn't help that for the most part, my opponent is either unaware or uninterested in the rigors of a full-blown debate, and they frequently resort to ignoring giant bodies of my text [which are usually pretty important] in their replies. I understand not everyone has 2+ hours to think about a post, but if you honestly think you're going to dismantle ten paragraphs of philosophical/political commentary with a handful of sentences, you've got another thing coming. It might be possible with like... one or two super-duper in your face slam-fuckin'-dunk points, but I haven't seen it yet.

I've made a point of mentioning several times that I don't debate people here strictly for my [or their] benefit, but rather for the people who haven't made up their minds yet. Most of the criticism I've seen levelled against me here is for the most part accurate. No, I'm not very open to "new ideas" [especially if by "new ideas" you mean "your ideas"], mainly because they're not new, and in fact many of them have been around a lot longer than mine, making my ideas the new ones, not yours.

However. [Note the period] I resent the accusation that I am "prone to bringing [my] position as mod to bear." I have not once done any such thing and, frankly, I request that this statement be retracted. Search through my post history if you'd like--you will find no mention therein of even my status as a moderator, much less any threats that said power will be used to my opponent's detriment. I've been modding this site since it was physically possible [read: April of 2003] and accordingly I am very much familiar with the necessary protocol.

All that said, my vote probably goes either to Deleuze or The Nazz. I could hop on the Nazz bandwagon, but it shouldn't be hard to guess what I think about conformity.

Dude, your one of the few people who will make me look at a thread just for posting on it

others are:
Nazz
TG
Deep kimchi
Katganistan

also the trolls...(you know who you are)

Um, wow. Thanks. *blushes*

All that said, my vote probably goes either to Deleuze or The Nazz. I could hop on the Nazz bandwagon, but it shouldn't be hard to guess what I think about conformity.

Deleuze was excellent. So much so that I tried to recruit him for the UN forum.

>.>

<.<

Definatly not me.

From the poll, I picked Soheran, but AnarchyEl, Neu Leonstein, Andaluciae, Vetalia, Grave_n_Idle, Bottle, and Muravyets are also good, among others, and also Free Soviets, when he debates.

Shit. I forgot to add you to the poll. :(

*smacks self*

*humps Melkor*

Dear god.. there are atleast 3 mods on right now..

*turns computer off*

*humps Melkor*

Dear god.. there are atleast 3 mods on right now..

*turns computer off*

4. ;)

4. ;)

Oh my god.

I got mentioned?!

*dances naked*

*takes picture, posts it on the internet* :D

Oh my god.

Mods, actually. Not god. ;)


And stay on topic, Ruffy. :p

Mods, actually. Not god. ;)


And stay on topic, Ruffy. :p

Dude, that is so awesome. It says you're offline, even though you're not. Is that something only mods can do!? :eek:

Mods, actually. Not god. ;)
Oh my Katrodiamelkbee!
And stay on topic, Ruffy. :p
Sowwie. :(

*staying on topic*


There are many good debators on this forum.

It's hard for me to choose because I don't pay much attention, but I'd have to say Jacobia just because of..well.. eh.. office party innuendo. ;)

Did I spell that right?

Shit. I forgot to add you to the poll. :(

*smacks self*Oh, my. Well, thank you for the posthumous mention, but the people on the poll are good representatives of NS debators. Besides, who would you not have put on the poll for me to have a spot?

Dude, that is so awesome. It says you're offline, even though you're not. Is that something only mods can do!? :eek:

Maybe.

<.<

>.>

Vetalia > Soheran ftw.

Oh, my. Well, thank you for the posthumous mention, but the people on the poll are good representatives of NS debators. Besides, who would you not have put on the poll for me to have a spot?

I dunno, but I'd be sure to pick somebody, because you definitely deserve a spot. ;)

Although we always disagree, it's NL. He should have been in the poll.
Hehe, another Smithers for my collection. :p

Thanks for everyone who mentioned me. Personally, I'd say Soheran, Vetalia and a few more that I invariably forget right now make my list. At least of those who are still around regularly. AB, Melkor's and Deleuze's stand-offs, Cat Tribe and so on were great too, back in the day.

My first reaction would be to vote for the person who can make the earliest and funniest sexual innuendo while staying on debate topic.

Otherwise, props to Nazz, but MK gets my vote (but barely).

I dunno, but I'd be sure to pick somebody, because you definitely deserve a spot. ;)Well, I thank you for your endorsement (as well as Llewdor's). I haven't debated much with you lately, mostly because you've been posting a lot of anti-Iraq war threads, and since I agree with the stance, I feel no need to debate against it. :)

Well, I'll have to take my hat off to probably the entire list. I've been on the oppossing side of a debate with most of the people on the list at one time or another in my relatively short shouting career, and they are for the most part top notch at espousing their beliefs.

However, I think the best 2 debaters i've seen on Nation States would be Llewdor and Soheran. When one posts, you are bound to find the other taking the oppossite side, much like a cobra fighting a mongoose.

and also Free Soviets, when he debates.

i think i've got a fairly severe case of 'seen it all before' with a side dish of 'banging my head into the wall just aint as much fun anymore'

(and apparently some sort of infestation of mixed metaphors)

i think i've got a fairly severe case of 'seen it all before' with a side dish of 'banging my head into the wall just aint as much fun anymore'

(and apparently some sort of infestation of mixed metaphors)
Yeah, and speaking for myself, I find that when that happens, my debating turns into a case of snark and fuck-you-itis. :D

Melkor gets my vote for rather obvious reasons.

He makes his point, and he doesn't beat around the bush. His posts are clear and concise, and they actually make you think about what you're writing, whether it be a reply or just a post on the same page.

Of course, he's already elaborated why he gets infuriated and "short fused", thus reducing the size of this post significantly. For that, I thank him for easing the load on my fingers.

I shall also shun him for stealing my thunder. :p

i think i've got a fairly severe case of 'seen it all before' with a side dish of 'banging my head into the wall just aint as much fun anymore'

(and apparently some sort of infestation of mixed metaphors)Ah, I see. I can see how that can be frustrating, but I say keep at it. The human skull has a finite amount of thickness, you know.

Ah, I see. I can see how that can be frustrating, but I say keep at it. The human skull has a finite amount of thickness, you know.
And get a bigger hammer. :D

And get a bigger hammer. :D

Why not just use the sharp end of the head? That should do it, you know.

Vetalia > Soheran ftw.

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone would see it differently.

The few times we have had serious arguments, I've left feeling that I barely missed a total evisceration - and that more due to Vetalia's generosity than any counter-argument on my part.

Yeah, and speaking for myself, I find that when that happens, my debating turns into a case of snark and fuck-you-itis. :D

mmmm, inflamation of the fuck you

'nother one you need a 'comedy' "me" option for.

mmmm, inflamation of the fuck you

And trying to put ointment on that is a bitch.

No mention of me, even though I once conclusively proved that Jesus was a Killer Whale?
Pshah, anyone can argue a point that makes sense, it takes a true master in the sweet science of the Internets to haul a premise out of their ass and then find some unwitting sources to be one's proof.

Whoah - I'm on the list. How did that happen? I was dead for most of last month and thought I was probably mostly forgotten here.

I haven't really been engaging in much debate here the last year or so: there are only so many times you can retype what are essentially the same posts again and again. Instead I have mainly just been picking at other people's positions and opinions. I still find the hunting down of little internal contradictions a fascinating hobby. Refutation has been my bag the last twelvemonth.

As I don't really feel I've been participating in a great deal of real debate here the past while I probably have a somewhat idiosyncratic view of whom I consider good debators.

Anyhoo, for what its worth an incomplete list of them people what I am afear'd to tangle with because I know I would come off the worst: Bottle, Lacadaemon, Retroludite Saboteurs*, Texan Hotrodders, and The White Hats. I may not entirely agree with them, but they seem to have disturbingly sound worldviews and a graceful clarity in explaining them.



* or whatever nom de guerre he is currently running under.

I don't think anyone considers me a good debator, I try though lol.

I would have to say Nazz.

Whoah - I'm on the list. How did that happen? I was dead for most of last month and thought I was probably mostly forgotten here.

I haven't really been engaging in much debate here the last year or so: there are only so many times you can retype what are essentially the same posts again and again. Instead I have mainly just been picking at other people's positions and opinions. I still find the hunting down of little internal contradictions a fascinating hobby. Refutation has been my bag the last twelvemonth.

As I don't really feel I've been participating in a great deal of real debate here the past while I probably have a somewhat idiosyncratic view of whom I consider good debators.

Anyhoo, for what its worth an incomplete list of them people what I am afear'd to tangle with because I know I would come off the worst: Bottle, Lacadaemon, Retroludite Saboteurs, Texan Hotrodders, and The White Hats. I may not entirely agree with them, but they seem to have disturbingly sound worldviews and a graceful clarity in explaining them.

I'm honored that one of my puppets made your list. :)

No mention of me, even though I once conclusively proved that Jesus was a Killer Whale?
Pshah, anyone can argue a point that makes sense, it takes a true master in the sweet science of the Internets to haul a premise out of their ass and then find some unwitting sources to be one's proof.

Don't underestimate the value of being underestimated. :)

I'm honored that one of my puppets made your list. :)

If you were ever wondering why we've never locked horns the reason is there.

i'd be shocked and appalled if this joke hasn't been made already in some form or other, but, is this poll a sly way to point and laugh at the biggest wanker on nsg? 'master debater' anyone? no? i'll get my coat...

If you were ever wondering why we've never locked horns the reason is there.

I wasn't too worried about it. You're one of those people I know has a sound worldview yourself. Not much to lock horns on, really.

From the poll, I picked Soheran, but AnarchyEl, Neu Leonstein, Andaluciae, Vetalia, Grave_n_Idle, Bottle, and Muravyets are also good, among others, and also Free Soviets, when he debates.
Why, thank you! :)

There are too many good debaters here. Easier to list bad ones, only I won't. From the list, I picked Nazz, but it was a close race with Soheran. They're both just really good at expressing their ideas clearly. Off the list, I go for GNI, Jocabia, Dempublicents, for backing up their arguments with well-researched proofs because I'm usually too lazy to look stuff up. Jello B and Alien Born are also good, clear writers, and there are some new names I've been impressed with so far -- JesusChristLooksLikeMe is pretty smart. And I love Bottle because she's so damn smart and so damn funny. From the old guard, Cat Tribes was my idol. Man, oh, man, those posts. I used to envision CT sitting around the law office, turning away clients and making hoards of law school interns continuously scan Westlaw so he could have all those citations right at hand, ready to pounce on every conceivable topic.

I vote Bottle. Not me, of course. I suck at debating.

From the old guard, Cat Tribes was my idol. Man, oh, man, those posts. I used to envision CT sitting around the law office, turning away clients and making hoards of law school interns continuously scan Westlaw so he could have all those citations right at hand, ready to pounce on every conceivable topic.
CT definately doesn't qualify as 'old guard' - He joined after me!
That's a good image though - I wouldn't want to be *his* articling student.

CT definately doesn't qualify as 'old guard' - He joined after me!
That's a good image though - I wouldn't want to be *his* articling student.

I thought Cat was great... Until I found out that he supported the Imminent Domain act.

I still can't figure out why he did (and possibly still does). In my eyes, that really shatters his credibility as a debator.

Ocean Drive. The fact that he sticks to his guns despite being called a troll and flamed for his beliefs, but not changing for it, shows he stands by his convictions and won't be swayed by ad hominems, like too many people here are.

Ocean Drive. The fact that he sticks to his guns despite being called a troll and flamed for his beliefs, but not changing for it, shows he stands by his convictions and won't be swayed by ad hominems, like too many people here are.OD is a laughable debator - this is essentially his charachteristic post:

###$##Jews found with nuclear arsenal in attempt to rob world's leading banks and seeze [sic] power from Europe's govenments [sic] in cooperation with south korea while slicing palestinian children into soup and contriving to keep the rest of the muslim world in poverty and hatred under the overt direction of Mel Brooks, Joe Lieberman.

Article to back me up from jewwatch.com (http://www.jewwatch.com)

commentary: so how long you think till the jews throw a nuke on tehran?I cannot think of one debate he participated in that didn't end in an abysmal thrashing. He's just too preposterous.

I thought Cat was great... Until I found out that he supported the Imminent Domain act.

I still can't figure out why he did (and possibly still does). In my eyes, that really shatters his credibility as a debator.I don't see why this bothers you so much - I disagreed with him over more interesting things. Government appropriation, though often unfair and always unfortunate, exists in pretty much every country. Governments sometimes need a quick and assured way to get land for important projects, security or otherwise. I believe they are forced to pay market value.

I voted other because I don't think any of the choices are good debaters. It seems nearly every debate on NSG at some point degrades into slinging stereotypes around. "You're a smelly Hippie/Commie!" "WEL UR AN 3VIL RIGHTWNGNUT1!111 OMGZORZ"

Oh and don't forget, kids...
The higher your post count,
The bigger you penis is!
So always remember to break up a single post into as many consecutive posts as possible.

No mention of me, even though I once conclusively proved that Jesus was a Killer Whale?
Pshah, anyone can argue a point that makes sense, it takes a true master in the sweet science of the Internets to haul a premise out of their ass and then find some unwitting sources to be one's proof.

What about me? Prove that Myrth was your dad.

Whoah - I'm on the list. How did that happen? I was dead for most of last month and thought I was probably mostly forgotten here.

I haven't really been engaging in much debate here the last year or so: there are only so many times you can retype what are essentially the same posts again and again. Instead I have mainly just been picking at other people's positions and opinions.

but you do it with such style

I thought Cat was great... Until I found out that he supported the Imminent Domain act.

I still can't figure out why he did (and possibly still does). In my eyes, that really shatters his credibility as a debator.

it's a standard power of the state and has been essentially forever. cat's not an anarchist, therefore it isn't surprising that he doesn't reject eminent domain outright.

hell, i am an anarchist and i intend there to be a whole bunch of expropriation of private property, which is close enough to the same thing.

Anyone who hasnt written in Cat Tribe probably shouldnt be posting.

It is :

1) Cat Tribe
2) Cat Tribe
3) Cat Tribe
4) Cat Tribe
5) Cat Tribe

No one compares.

I'd have voted Cat-Tribe if he was still active, but i think I'll go with Bottle. GMC Military Arms should be up there, too.

Has anyone mentioned Dissonant Cognition yet?
(S)he is very good.



AnarchyeL
Dissonant Cognition
Jello Biafra
Free Soviets


Dissonant Cognition has never debated in its entire existence. At most, it has adopted its own positon and then proceeded to spout the party line against all others. This is the childish bickering of a hack, not debating.

Judging from the results of the poll, there appears to be at least some tendency to confuse "best at debating" with "whom do I agree with most?" Indeed, he or she who is "best at debating" should be able to successfully defend any position, regardless of whether the individual in question actually believes it. This is how one of Dissonant Cognition's own politics/philosophy instructors would operate; instantly "adopt" the opposite view of the student, and proceed to reduce student to silent quivering/crying in the back corner of the room.

As such, any contest to find who is "best at debating" should involve a communist defending the continued necessity of private property and capitalism, countered by a capitalist arguing in favor of the worldwide proletarian revolution. (edit: The Presidential election debate, and political candidate debates in general, suck exactly because they aren't debates, they're simply more childish hackery. A real debate would have the Republican arguing why one should vote Democrat, while the Democrat advocates the Republican vote. Spouting the party line is easy. Debating is not.)

I'd have voted Cat-Tribe if he was still active, but i think I'll go with Bottle. GMC Military Arms should be up there, too.

Yeah, GMC is pretty good, especially when getting going on a pet topic. Most of the Mods (including myself) are what I would call solid debaters. They may not be the best, but they can certainly hold their own.

Dissonant Cognition has never debated in its entire existence. At most, it has adopted its own positon and then proceeded to spout the party line against all others. This is the childish bickering of a hack, not debating.

Judging from the results of the poll, there appears to be at least some tendency to confuse "best at debating" with "whom do I agree with most?" Indeed, he or she who is "best at debating" should be able to successfully defend any position, regardless of whether the individual in question actually believes it. This is how one of Dissonant Cognition's own politics/philosophy instructors would operate; instantly "adopt" the opposite view of the student, and proceed to reduce student to silent quivering/crying in the back corner of the room.

Interestingly, the majority of the people I listed are ideologically opposed to me. I'm glad you said at least some, and I agree with you that there is a bit of it.

As such, any contest to find who is "best at debating" should involve a communist defending the continued necessity of private property and capitalism, countered by a capitalist arguing in favor of the worldwide proletarian revolution. (edit: The Presidential election debate, and political candidate debates in general, suck exactly because they aren't debates, they're simply more childish hackery. A real debate would have the Republican arguing why one should vote Democrat, while the Democrat advocates the Republican vote. Spouting the party line is easy. Debating is not.)

Personally, I think having genuine debating ability involves both defending one's own position effectively and being able to understand your opponent's arguments well enough to defend theirs effectively.

Personally, I think having genuine debating ability involves both defending one's own position effectively and being able to understand your opponent's arguments well enough to defend theirs effectively.
I agree, but mostly because I think the key to being able to counter an opponent's arguments is to anticipate them and neuter them before they come out. It's difficult to anticipate an opponent's argument if you don't understand their point of view in the first place.

I agree, but mostly because I think the key to being able to counter an opponent's arguments is to anticipate them and neuter them before they come out. It's difficult to anticipate an opponent's argument if you don't understand their point of view in the first place.

Yeah. This is going to prove I'm a big nerd, but I've actually anticipated a poster making a line of argumentation months before he came up with it. :D

Yeah. This is going to prove I'm a big nerd, but I've actually anticipated a poster making a line of argumentation months before he came up with it. :D

With some posters around here, you know what they're going to argue before they do, if you've been around long enough.

With some posters around here, you know what they're going to argue before they do, if you've been around long enough.

Yes, particularly if they're unimaginative or cling to a favorite topic. That doesn't make for a good debator, though it doesn't automatically preclude a person from being one either.

Personally, I think having genuine debating ability involves both defending one's own position effectively and being able to understand your opponent's arguments well enough to defend theirs effectively.


Indeed. Though I would tend to focus on understanding my opponents arguments as a means of finding the weaknesses in my own. People need to submit their own positions to sufficient attack before turning the attack against others.

Dissonant Cognition has never debated in its entire existence. At most, it has adopted its own positon and then proceeded to spout the party line against all others. This is the childish bickering of a hack, not debating.I don't know that this is true; I distinctly recall one particular thread where a communist was talking about a conspiracy amongst capitalists to monopolize resources, and a capitalist was laughing it off, and you brought up Adam Smith quotes to show that Adam Smith believed in such a conspiracy, too. While it is true that it might reflect your own position somewhat, it certainly was not simply spouting a party line; it was too well-researched for that.

I don't know that this is true; I distinctly recall one particular thread where a communist was talking about a conspiracy amongst capitalists to monopolize resources, and a capitalist was laughing it off, and you brought up Adam Smith quotes to show that Adam Smith believed in such a conspiracy, too. While it is true that it might reflect your own position somewhat, it certainly was not simply spouting a party line; it was too well-researched for that.

Well, just before reading Book I of The Wealth of Nations and The Theory of Moral Sentiments entirely, the laughing capitalist was more representative of my own position. Then I actually went and read the guy that everyone likes to quote and ended up with a serious case of the psychological condition for which I am named; getting your ass handed to you in debate by an opponent who died 216 years ago is an interesting experience. And as I've been saying in previous posts, managing to refute one's self is the far more important event.

Reading books is dangerous like that. Speaking of which, its about time for a new debate.

**goes to find copy of Das Kapital on bookshelf**

It really all depends what over, doesn't it?

People have various fields of "expertise" debate-wise (i.e. some are better on, say, abortion, whereas some know more about politics etc.).

While I enjoy a good debate once in a while, and think I am moderately good at it, I am actually rather glad that none of YOU think I am worth mentioning... I think I like being under this particular radar... makes me less of a target. :p

As a side note: one of the most interesting and memorable debates I have been involved in here was with one of the worst debators - the long since banned and departed Cartese. It was an incredibly stimulating discussion, but one which nearly drove me to slamming my head against the wall as I failed repeatedly to manage to present my position in sufficient clarity for Cartese to take on board. At times I felt like my brain was going to start bleeding.

And the subject matter of this seemingly endless to-and-fro: a logical model which purported to show the impossibility of an interventionist deity. It was mighty strange to find myself as a deep-seated atheist apaprently arguing again and again for the logical possibility of the interventionist deity.

I can't quite remember all the details of the barney, but I do seem to recall that a crucial turning point was reached when we finally dragged out an obscure corner of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

The moral of this story: good debators aren't needed for good debate.

I thought Cat was great... Until I found out that he supported the Imminent Domain act.

I still can't figure out why he did (and possibly still does). In my eyes, that really shatters his credibility as a debator.

so in order to be a good debator, you have to agree with them?

As a side note: one of the most interesting and memorable debates I have been involved in here was with one of the worst debators - the long since banned and departed Cartese. It was an incredibly stimulating discussion, but one which nearly drove me to slamming my head against the wall as I failed repeatedly to manage to present my position in sufficient clarity for Cartese to take on board. At times I felt like my brain was going to start bleeding.

And the subject matter of this seemingly endless to-and-fro: a logical model which purported to show the impossibility of an interventionist deity. It was mighty strange to find myself as a deep-seated atheist apaprently arguing again and again for the logical possibility of the interventionist deity.

I can't quite remember all the details of the barney, but I do seem to recall that a crucial turning point was reached when we finally dragged out an obscure corner of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

The moral of this story: good debators aren't needed for good debate.

I still remember his little proofs. Definitely the most interesting debate I've ever seen here.

Ahhh, for "The Good Old Days", back when The Red Arrow and Eutrusca battled by simply posting articles and saying "I agree!".....

I really suck at debating things....but i love debating things:mad:

Can someone please give me a tiny bit of advice......The first intelligent debates i've ever had were on NS, I am 100% USDA choice noob

Ahhh, for "The Good Old Days", back when The Red Arrow and Eutrusca battled by simply posting articles and saying "I agree!".....
Can't say I miss them all that much. Remember Christofi? That guy made my eyes bleed.

I really suck at debating things....but i love debating things:mad:

Can someone please give me a tiny bit of advice......The first intelligent debates i've ever had were on NS, I am 100% USDA choice noob

You don't need advice, you just need practice. Learning to express a well researched position in a convincing manner is just a skill like any other. And all skills get better with repetition.


To add my list of the best debators I ever saw here:

Bottle, Bodies Without Organs, Zeppistan, Neu-Leonstein, Niccolo Medici, Dempublicents, Straughn, and The Cat-Tribe

Can't say I miss them all that much. Remember Christofi? That guy made my eyes bleed.


Oh sheesh yes...

In fact, I think the memory just burst an artery in my left cornea!

Oh yeah, and add Incertonia, Berklyvania, Canuck Heaven, and Dobbs World to my list of good debators long gone. Not to mention, of course, Big Jim P., Beeker, and Pablo the Squirrel! :D

Ocean Drive. The fact that he sticks to his guns despite being called a troll and flamed for his beliefs, but not changing for it, shows he stands by his convictions and won't be swayed by ad hominems, like too many people here are.You got a TG.

I don't involve myself in serious debates too much, but from what I've seen, I'd say Bottle is pretty good.

CT definately doesn't qualify as 'old guard' - He joined after me!
That's a good image though - I wouldn't want to be *his* articling student.
Ha. Most of the best of y'all are a bunch of old geezers from my POV. I started just over a year ago. I bow to the wisdom of my elders. :)

<insert sex pun here>

look!

I'm witty!

;)


shit...i'll just say it


MASTER DEBATER!!!!!!!


there, now that we have that out of our system.

All things considered, I have to say I'm fairly glad that The Nazz is in the lead. I didn't want to come out with this initially but as far as deabating goes I consider The Nazz and Deleuze to be the two major standouts here on NSG: they were the only two people I've encountered so far that really made me think about how I should respond. Generally, when I "debate" with folks (I use the term loosely, primarily for the reasons that Dissonant Cognition highlighted in this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11701605#post11701605)) I become attached to the idea of "debate" even though that's not what I am really doing, at least in an academic sense. As far as NSG is concerned, this is more or less a question of "Who is the best at presenting his/her views?"

Needless to say, upon realization of this fact I voted for myself. If you don't like it, get in line! :upyours:

Oh yeah, and add Incertonia, Berklyvania, Canuck Heaven, and Dobbs World to my list of good debators long gone. Not to mention, of course, Big Jim P., Beeker, and Pablo the Squirrel! :D

How the Hell did I get on that list? *Sees beeks and Pablo on the same list* Oh.

Actually the only debator I can vote for is Cat Tribe. We debated briefly concerning anti-depressants and I was seriously out debated.

All things considered, I have to say I'm fairly glad that The Nazz is in the lead. I didn't want to come out with this initially but as far as deabating goes I consider The Nazz and Deleuze to be the two major standouts here on NSG: they were the only two people I've encountered so far that really made me think about how I should respond. Generally, when I "debate" with folks (I use the term loosely, primarily for the reasons that Dissonant Cognition highlighted in this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11701605#post11701605)) I become attached to the idea of "debate" even though that's not what I am really doing, at least in an academic sense. As far as NSG is concerned, this is more or less a question of "Who is the best at presenting his/her views?"

Needless to say, upon realization of this fact I voted for myself. If you don't like it, get in line! :upyours:Much as I appreciate the compliment, I imagine if you tallied up all the votes Bottle got under other (mine included), she'd be wiping the floor with me right now.

Oh yeah, and add Incertonia, Berklyvania, Canuck Heaven, and Dobbs World to my list of good debators long gone. Not to mention, of course, Big Jim P., Beeker, and Pablo the Squirrel! :D

Berk really was excellent. I had a lot of respect for him. I wish he had stuck around.