NationStates Jolt Archive

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7427067542845351261&q=penn+and+teller+bullshit
(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7427067542845351261&q=penn+and+teller+bullshit)
I found some good points in the episode, but I also disagreed with a lot (Mostly the whole "Democratic party recruitment" thing.

This is especially of interest to me, as I've just gone off to college (Though it is 40 minutes away.)

Discuss?

So they cite:

A video diary detailing the life of one student...

Twenty four (out of the billions that have inhabited the planet in the time those twenty four have lived) who have succeeded without college...

A guy from "FIRE" with an explicit and obvious political agenda ranting about tinfoil hat conspiracy theories by the "enemy"...

David Horowitz, a well known conservative personality, founder of Students for Academic Freedom (SAF)...

One heavily edited "interview" with one professor that supposedly "proves" "FIRE" and SAF guy's claims...

...and I stopped watching at "American academia is run by the Democratic Party."

So, they present the lives of two whole students, political controversies at two whole universities, throughly document the opinions of two political organizations with obvious right-wing agendas/affiliatons (FIRE, Students for Academic Freedom) while going out of their way to make opposing viewpoints look as silly as possible with heavy editing, while implying rather strongly that the success of 24 whole people demonstrates that anyone can be successful without college. Not to mention a rather long sermon about how everyone else should have to adapt to my obnoxious behavior, with copious usage of the word "fuck" because its "cool" or "anti-authority" or some other lame high-school-maturity-level reason.

Apparently this is what passes for critical thinking and skepticism skills at clown college (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Jillette). Of course, such things are too boring, when one's main purpose is selling a television show and Vegas act (edit: and of course what better way to get people's attention than by playing the "fuckin'" bad ass conservative who doesn't give a "fuck" in the "fuckin'" hippy leftist infested "fuckin'" entertainment biz, after all. I mean "fuck." "Fuck." You know I'm so controversial and bad ass that I say "fuck" a lot, right?)

In short: Bullshit. :rolleyes:

(And yes, I'm a registered libertarian, so it's not like I'm opposed to their general political viewpoints. I just think their "reasoning" is crap. At least, that's what the Democrat conspiracy told me to type just now via the microchip they implanted in my brain during my first quarter at evil commie college.)

They are Commies!

That was funnier than hell!

Sorry have to disagree, various publication over the years have been reporting on this crap. I'ts extremely widespread. Simple, unless you cleave to the party line, you are NOT allowed to speak your mind or have a different view on a subject.

Dude, it's a half-hour show, they can only show so many people and bring up so much background information and research. I am entirely sure that there are lots more people who have been successful with out a college degree, but they didn't have the time to show any more. The ones they did mention were there to get the point across.

I just did 4 years at a local Tech College, and the liberal viewpoint was extremely noticable in both the staff and student populations. The few of us who weren't liberals, had to actually worry about whether or not an instructor would grade us based on our political viewpoints.

And seeing as I never gave a rats ass whether or not I said something to offend anyone, my beliefs were moderately well known. So I personally didn't worry quite as much. And as libertarian myself, I was even more in the minority than the few conservatives I knew.

Simple, unless you cleave to the party line, you are NOT allowed to speak your mind or have a different view on a subject.


I wrote a paper two quarters ago defending American corporations' continued cooperation with the Chinese government's attempts to censor the internet, as doing so would allow continued access of American business to China, and thus new and continued access of American ideals, democracy, and peacebuilding cooperation via many more routes than just the Internet alone. I got a 98% score; missed half a point on a grammar technicality of some sort. I also wrote a large paper that described many arguments for as well as against the practice of eminent domain powers by government. 97% score that time.

One paper went entirely, and one partly, against what I assume is the evil liberal commie "party line" (in political science, no less, their evil lair and stronghold!) and I got totally punished for it. They showed this dirty neoliberal capitalist student what for!

:rolleyes:


Dude, it's a half-hour show, they can only show so many people and bring up so much background information and research.


Exactly. There is not enough time to reason and present a sufficent debate, because reason and debate is not the point of the show. The point of the show is to be entertained with how many times some jackoff clown college "student" can squeeze the word "fuck" into a sentence. Beyond that, the show has no apparent value.

(edit: Of course, it doesn't help much that the host(s) appear to go out of their way to find the weakest possible argument against their own position and then present that argument as some sort of universal representation of their opponent. The segment of the video beginning at 10:55 is classic strawman, and heavily edited to strenghten the effect no less. I'd like to actually hear from the man's own mouth that his opponents should all be silenced, but that bit appears to have been edited out. Which makes no sense, cause you'd want something like that in the show, as it would make the man look really bad. If he actually said it, anyway...)


I just did 4 years at a local Tech College, and the liberal viewpoint was extremely noticable in both the staff and student populations. The few of us who weren't liberals, had to actually worry about whether or not an instructor would grade us based on our political viewpoints.


Ok. So now we have three whole "documented" cases. Out of how many thousands of colleges and universities? Of course, based on the horrors that I have seen while correcting my peer's papers in a writing class I was required to take, I get the feeling it has less to do with political bias, and more to do with the fact that the average student is ill equiped and hard pressed to adequately research and present any idea whatsoever. Of course, since such people already know everything there is to know about everything, it can't possibly be their own damn fault that they got a bad grade. Nope, not possible at all.

Must be a conspiracy afoot!


And seeing as I never gave a rats ass whether or not I said something to offend anyone, my beliefs were moderately well known. So I personally didn't worry quite as much


See, there's more of that need to show everyone how big and tough and controversial we are. :D ;)

You don't want to believe the show or me, tis entirely up to you. I never said it always happens, I said that it is fairly frequent. You got lucky in that you didn't have to deal with that kind of bullshit yourself. But alot of people have, and thats' why they brought it up.

Do some research if you honestly don't think its' an issue. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised by what you find. Remember, all Penn and Teller were doing was pointing out the existence of the problem. And you're right, of course, the interviews were heavily edited. I'd like to see what all was said with ALL the people they interviewed.

Oh, and that is how I normally talk. I swear alot. Not for the shock and offend thing, just cause I've been talking like that for over two decades and see no reason to change.

One of the more hit-or-miss episodes, that rambling black academic made me laugh, ditto that whackjob diversity shyster.

All their shows ar available free on google video, some are extremely good.

Occasionally, Penn & Teller's Bullshit likes to delve into their own bullshit and out of factual content.
They pulled the same kind of "boxing strawmen" and "shooting red herrings in a barrel" sideshow in the "Second Hand Smoking" episode, and for the most part, the "Recycling" one.

Occasionally, Penn & Teller's Bullshit likes to delve into their own bullshit and out of factual content.
They pulled the same kind of "boxing strawmen" and "shooting red herrings in a barrel" sideshow in the "Second Hand Smoking" episode, and for the most part, the "Recycling" one.

I dunno, the "Recycling" episode bore fruit upon some research of my own, most notably the fear of landfill space running out. Modern landfills are impressively constructed and can be used to harness the gases produced in decomposition...and there's no shortage of room for them. Hell, the county I'm in alone....

Point is, the show gives me something to chew on, and I decide whether or not to swallow. After checking some stuff out, sometimes I do (their exposing of the "Crossing Over" guy and other ripoffs like yoga, bottled water, feng shui and the funeral industry), and sometimes I don't (College, other parts of Recycling, the Environmental Movement, and others). The problem occurs when people see a show like this (or Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Al Franken, Bill Maher), and take it completely at face value without checking into their sources (if any are indeed mentioned) or their arguments. If you want to be convinced of your own already-held opinion, that's easy. If you want your already-convinced half-hour show to present all sides equally, that's harder.

Opinions are like aircraft -- those without solid construction are not likely to fly for very long. Whether you pack a parachute or not is up to you.

One of the more hit-or-miss episodes, that rambling black academic made me laugh, ditto that whackjob diversity shyster.

All their shows ar available free on google video, some are extremely good.

Agreed.

I dunno, the "Recycling" episode bore fruit upon some research of my own, most notably the fear of landfill space running out. Modern landfills are impressively constructed and can be used to harness the gases produced in decomposition...and there's no shortage of room for them. Hell, the county I'm in alone....
Oh, I'm not saying entirely. They had actual evidence there, but alot of it was just an attack on environmentalists for show.

Sorry have to disagree, various publication over the years have been reporting on this crap. I'ts extremely widespread. Simple, unless you cleave to the party line, you are NOT allowed to speak your mind or have a different view on a subject.

And nearly all of them have been full of crap. It's usually a student or two complaining that they wrote wonderful essays that they received bad grades on because of political bias. Interestingly enough, they never seem willing to show said essays to others. We're just supposed to take their word for it that it was actually A+ work.

I've also seen (like the recent GATech case) students who think that not being allowed to harrass other students somehow infringes upon their freedom or that the very existence of a Safe Space program from GLBT students is somehow an attack on Christianity :rolleyes:

I have yet to see a single large-scale case of "liberal bias" at a school. The only professor I can remember even making her political views clear to us was....*gasp*.....A Republican!

I just did 4 years at a local Tech College, and the liberal viewpoint was extremely noticable in both the staff and student populations. The few of us who weren't liberals, had to actually worry about whether or not an instructor would grade us based on our political viewpoints.

See, I don't buy this either. I'm sure it happens - somewhere. However, every time I've seen a student claim that they were being graded based on their political viewpoints, rather than their actual work, the claim has been bogus. I've heard this kind of thing numerous times about professors I regularly disagreed with - and made high grades. It seems to me that just about everyone who makes this claim simply can't actually back up their point-of-view, but think they should get an A just for stating an opinion. Problem is that these classes usually require support, not just a statement of opinion.

And nearly all of them have been full of crap. It's usually a student or two complaining that they wrote wonderful essays that they received bad grades on because of political bias. Interestingly enough, they never seem willing to show said essays to others. We're just supposed to take their word for it that it was actually A+ work.

I've also seen (like the recent GATech case) students who think that not being allowed to harrass other students somehow infringes upon their freedom or that the very existence of a Safe Space program from GLBT students is somehow an attack on Christianity :rolleyes:

I have yet to see a single large-scale case of "liberal bias" at a school. The only professor I can remember even making her political views clear to us was....*gasp*.....A Republican!



See, I don't buy this either. I'm sure it happens - somewhere. However, every time I've seen a student claim that they were being graded based on their political viewpoints, rather than their actual work, the claim has been bogus. I've heard this kind of thing numerous times about professors I regularly disagreed with - and made high grades. It seems to me that just about everyone who makes this claim simply can't actually back up their point-of-view, but think they should get an A just for stating an opinion. Problem is that these classes usually require support, not just a statement of opinion.

Seconded, through both experience and reading.

From what I've seen, folks in academia do tend more to the left than the right, particularly in the arts and "soft" sciences.

But I haven't seen any significant bias when it came to grading. The profs tend to be pretty ethical and aware of their own potential bias when grading, in my experience.

so...while watching this, I decided to just type up what came to mind. Here's what I ended up with...
who the fuck has taken shop class in college?
yes. lets show someone drinking. Because people who don't go to college don't drink. clearly.
Alan Coors is not a college student. Sorry, I have experience that says the exact opposite of what he has to say.
Neither Penn nor Teller are currently in college, nor has Penn ever been in one. He has very little ground to stand on
Using the example of ONE campus is hardly indicative of the literal HUNDREDS of campuses across America.
Perhaps Michael Davis needs to find a new job. Picking an asshat who says his employer is "Evil" and is a "plantation" doesn't prove much.
Not only Jewish students can take Jewish studies
St. Cloud isn't exactly a top university.
Hip hop dancing isn't exactly diversity. Nice try tho...
Oh no...the protestors ignored him. Is that a surprise? They aren't going to be swayed when they are trying to sway others
Yes, lets just keep calling someone a pussy. That drives home your argument.
They have rules about harassment. How often are they enforced?
The rant is a huge tangent that accomplishes nothing.
College itself isn't free. You pay to go there, you follow their rules
The lesson of a right to not be offended is something that is pushed by the society at large, not universities. Schools mirror the society, not the other way around.
They CAN be democrats, and not push an agenda. Sit in on a college class.
Chomsky is a lingusitics professor. IE, not exactly a politically charged subject.
aaaand we have a Godwin! YES!
Funny, the COLLEGE STUDENT understood the point of COLLEGE. big fucking surprise.

So they cite:

A video diary detailing the life of one student...

Twenty four (out of the billions that have inhabited the planet in the time those twenty four have lived) who have succeeded without college...

A guy from "FIRE" with an explicit and obvious political agenda ranting about tinfoil hat conspiracy theories by the "enemy"...

David Horowitz, a well known conservative personality, founder of Students for Academic Freedom (SAF)...

One heavily edited "interview" with one professor that supposedly "proves" "FIRE" and SAF guy's claims...

...and I stopped watching at "American academia is run by the Democratic Party."

So, they present the lives of two whole students, political controversies at two whole universities, throughly document the opinions of two political organizations with obvious right-wing agendas/affiliatons (FIRE, Students for Academic Freedom) while going out of their way to make opposing viewpoints look as silly as possible with heavy editing, while implying rather strongly that the success of 24 whole people demonstrates that anyone can be successful without college. Not to mention a rather long sermon about how everyone else should have to adapt to my obnoxious behavior, with copious usage of the word "fuck" because its "cool" or "anti-authority" or some other lame high-school-maturity-level reason.

Apparently this is what passes for critical thinking and skepticism skills at clown college (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Jillette). Of course, such things are too boring, when one's main purpose is selling a television show and Vegas act (edit: and of course what better way to get people's attention than by playing the "fuckin'" bad ass conservative who doesn't give a "fuck" in the "fuckin'" hippy leftist infested "fuckin'" entertainment biz, after all. I mean "fuck." "Fuck." You know I'm so controversial and bad ass that I say "fuck" a lot, right?)

In short: Bullshit. :rolleyes:

(And yes, I'm a registered libertarian, so it's not like I'm opposed to their general political viewpoints. I just think their "reasoning" is crap. At least, that's what the Democrat conspiracy told me to type just now via the microchip they implanted in my brain during my first quarter at evil commie college.)

Said better then I could ... I normaly like thoes guys to an extent ... but this is pathetic

Sorry have to disagree, various publication over the years have been reporting on this crap. I'ts extremely widespread. Simple, unless you cleave to the party line, you are NOT allowed to speak your mind or have a different view on a subject. Excellent, if it's that widespread it should be easy enough to provide us with at least a couple of the publications in question! Even better if you can find some that don't involve David Horowitz.
I just did 4 years at a local Tech College, and the liberal viewpoint was extremely noticable in both the staff and student populations. The few of us who weren't liberals, had to actually worry about whether or not an instructor would grade us based on our political viewpoints.

So do you have any proof that this downgrading ever happened, or was it entirely speculation on your part?

Bullshit seems like a great show until you see an episode where they take a viewpoint you disagree with. Then you see how they show facts in a way to further their own viewpoint. As was already mentioned, you can see this best in the "second hand smoke" and "recycling" episodes.

They made some very good points.

Could have done without the obsenities, though. But I chose to watch it, so I can't complain.

I think I can sum up that... Interesting production in one word: Bullshit.

Poor research, heavy picking and choosing for cases and interviews, giving the far right a speaking chance, but not really offering the other side any direct speaking time on the subject whatsoever.

Michael Moore would be proud.

From what I've seen, folks in academia do tend more to the left than the right, particularly in the arts and "soft" sciences.

But I haven't seen any significant bias when it came to grading. The profs tend to be pretty ethical and aware of their own potential bias when grading, in my experience.

"Soft" sciences?

"Soft" sciences?

Economics, sociology, and psychology are examples of "soft" sciences.

Economics, sociology, and psychology are examples of "soft" sciences.

aka social sciences in some areas

aka social sciences in some areas

Yes. For some reason a lot of folks around where I live call them soft sciences.

Seen it before. Not my favorite.

Wow, I am not impressed at all with this episode.

I am half way through...they just finished with their plant at the protest, which had to be the most transparent spin I've seen from them. All they could get was a guy, who probably had the job of preventing counter-protest conflict, politely asking their guy to move 10 feet away! What that tells me is, "This scene didn't pan out. Since they didn't attack him, we're going to trump up his statements into 'a threat.'"

Sarkhaan made a lot of good points. The ridiculing of students for drinking is directly contraditory to their statements later about how college ought to reflect the real world. Yet, here they are ridiculing this reflection that people in the real world drink. The second most transparent spin they made was the mention of rules banning certain things as harassment. When you want to point out something as being endemic to a system, you need to list a few more names in the system. They did name more than a few names of people who did not complete college...of course, most of these were literary and scientific geniuses across time. Later, Penn tries to cite the show's revelations so far as contradicting Chomsky's claim of 2% bias, but up to that point his show hasn't proven all that much with one diversity nut and two harrassment laws.

And now that I've finished the show, I can note that they certainly never hit 2%. This felt like a pretty lazy effort. I think they were counting on the advocates for their position to make their case for them, as if their own bullshit wouldn't come out without Penn's voiceovers. All in all, this reminded me of our own College Republicans, who backed up a lot of whining with some anecdotal and creatively interpretted evidence.

Eh, yea I can see it. Comon guys, you can't be serious that they aren't on the money about some things. Alot of college do push that they are "diverse" which phrase has become so shallow and meaningless that they might as well say. "Well we let in blacks, asian, hispanic, lesbians, and gays just to show we're "diverse"! God forbid diversity have to do with something beside your skin color or your sexual orientation. Also, alot of college students do drink at college, they have these beer bong, at keggers. I really love the part about people having the "right" to not be offended. They are so right on the money on that one. I have met alot of people here on campus that get offended everytime I talk about getting rid of useless government programs or how Affirmative Action is a racist program. Of course they act "offended" and somehow they think they have a right to not be offended. News Flash morons, America is a melting pot, not everyone is going to agree with your ideals, so if you get offended easily then you might as well lock yourself inside you room and hide under the mattress.

Eh, yea I can see it. Comon guys, you can't be serious that they aren't on the money about some things. Alot of college do push that they are "diverse" which phrase has become so shallow and meaningless that they might as well say. "Well we let in blacks, asian, hispanic, lesbians, and gays just to show we're "diverse"! God forbid diversity have to do with something beside your skin color or your sexual orientation. Also, alot of college students do drink at college, they have these beer bong, at keggers. I really love the part about people having the "right" to not be offended. They are so right on the money on that one. I have met alot of people here on campus that get offended everytime I talk about getting rid of useless government programs or how Affirmative Action is a racist program. Of course they act "offended" and somehow they think they have a right to not be offended. News Flash morons, America is a melting pot, not everyone is going to agree with your ideals, so if you get offended easily then you might as well lock yourself inside you room and hide under the mattress.

No they missed the mark on most every collage experience I have had in my 6 years here … go figure

Surprising how I found reality at least on this 13 thousand person campus did not match the reality of anything but potentially incoming freshman for the first semester.

Of course they act "offended" and somehow they think they have a right to not be offended. News Flash morons, America is a melting pot, not everyone is going to agree with your ideals, so if you get offended easily then you might as well lock yourself inside you room and hide under the mattress.
Says the man who wants every Hollywood actor (Excepting Ronnie and the Governator) to shut up and not get invloved in politics because he doesn't like their opinions.

Pot, met Kettle. I'm sure you'll both get along swimingly.

No they missed the mark on most every collage experience I have had in my 6 years here … go figure

Surprising how I found reality at least on this 13 thousand person campus did not match the reality of anything but potentially incoming freshman for the first semester.

What college do you go to and comon, when you first signed up for college, don't tell me they didn't at least once mention that they were "diverse".

What college do you go to and comon, when you first signed up for college, don't tell me they didn't at least once mention that they were "diverse".
I'm not sure about UpwardThrust, but I was a tourguide for my college as well as on orientation staff for 6 of the 7 years I was there and I know I never mentioned it unless I was asked.

Says the man who wants every Hollywood actor (Excepting Ronnie and the Governator) to shut up and not get invloved in politics because he doesn't like their opinions.

Actually I couldn't give a rats ass about Arnold. What makes Ronnie diffrent from the rest of Hollywood was that he was in politics even before he was at Hollywood. His father was a Democrat who did volunteer work for them, in school he lead several protest, and even fought for equality for two blacks on his football team. However, since you miss the point on that thread, I'm not even going to waste my breath arguging with you about the fact that yes they have a right to say what they say, but they can't assume that they know what is best for America since they are not the majority in this country.

What college do you go to and comon, when you first signed up for college, don't tell me they didn't at least once mention that they were "diverse".
SCSU ... and no they did not really play that up a lot of us local people apply to go through there we dont usualy get the big speaches

Even if they did so what? they are proud of some of the amazing students that they have drawn from all over the world. I have had the pleasure of working with some absolutly brilliant people from all over. Yeah our campus is like 85 percent white ... go figure middle of minnesota kind of fits with the demographics but I am absolutly glad for their student exchange program and "Diversity"

I'm not sure about UpwardThrust, but I was a tourguide for my college as well as on orientation staff for 6 of the 7 years I was there and I know I never mentioned it unless I was asked.

Well we're talking about recruiters that goes to high school campus or community college campus. I remember when I was at a community college, everytime I would talk to a 4 year college I would hear the word diversity from every one of them.

Well we're talking about recruiters that goes to high school campus or community college campus. I remember when I was at a community college, everytime I would talk to a 4 year college I would hear the word diversity from every one of them.

SO ... is it such a bad thing? seems to me there could be a lot worse things. Like I said that diversity has alowed me to work with some awsome exchange students over my years in my department

SCSU ... and no they did not really play that up a lot of us local people apply to go through there we dont usualy get the big speaches

Even if they did so what? they are proud of some of the amazing students that they have drawn from all over the world. I have had the pleasure of working with some absolutly brilliant people from all over. Yeah our campus is like 85 percent white ... go figure middle of minnesota kind of fits with the demographics but I am absolutly glad for their student exchange program and "Diversity"

Why should being "diverse" be a goal of colleges though? I go to college to learn how to be an archivist! I don't care who I learn it from, or who is learning with me! Hell a mixed lesbian female who is a crossdresser could be learning how to be an archivist right along with me, and I wouldn't give a rats ass, because I'm not here for diversity, I'm here for duh da daaa DAH, to learn! That is what Penn and Teller are saying!

I'm not sure about UpwardThrust, but I was a tourguide for my college as well as on orientation staff for 6 of the 7 years I was there and I know I never mentioned it unless I was asked.

Yeah they don’t really play it up here either … even though I think they should more.

SO ... is it such a bad thing? seems to me there could be a lot worse things. Like I said that diversity has alowed me to work with some awsome exchange students over my years in my department

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that top priorities for college should be their education system and how they teach their student and their graduate percentage. Diversity should be an afterthought.

Actually I couldn't give a rats ass about Arnold. What makes Ronnie diffrent from the rest of Hollywood was that he was in politics even before he was at Hollywood. His father was a Democrat who did volunteer work for them, in school he lead several protest, and even fought for equality for two blacks on his football team. However, since you miss the point on that thread, I'm not even going to waste my breath arguging with you about the fact that yes they have a right to say what they say, but they can't assume that they know what is best for America since they are not the majority in this country.
No, we got your point, and pointed it out repeatedly. I do love the irony though.

No, we got your point, and pointed it out repeatedly. I do love the irony though.

Whatever helps ya sleep at night, now if we can get back to the topic at hand please.

Well we're talking about recruiters that goes to high school campus or community college campus. I remember when I was at a community college, everytime I would talk to a 4 year college I would hear the word diversity from every one of them.
I WAS that type of recruiter. We went to high schools, college fairs, in house events, and gave weekly tours.

We never mentioned it. The only time we did was with the studies aborad program.

Yeah they don’t really play it up here either … even though I think they should more.
Converative universities maybe?

Why should being "diverse" be a goal of colleges though? I go to college to learn how to be an archivist! I don't care who I learn it from, or who is learning with me! Hell a mixed lesbian female who is a crossdresser could be learning how to be an archivist right along with me, and I wouldn't give a rats ass, because I'm not here for diversity, I'm here for duh da daaa DAH, to learn! That is what Penn and Teller are saying!

Some of us have the ability to learn from other people … pulling exchange students from (for example Malaysia that’s a big one here) has allowed me to work and learn with some of the brightest networking people in the world.

They taught me almost as much to work and study with as some of the professors … this is not a tech collage we are expected to learn a lot more and working with these people with different outlooks on the material is awesome.

Converative universities maybe?

Here naw not really ... we are not too much either direction honestly. Though that may be our high percentage of non traditionals that kind of balance things out and step it down a bit

I will say one good thing about the study aboard program, lots of cute Filipinas at my school. :D

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that top priorities for college should be their education system and how they teach their student and their graduate percentage. Diversity should be an afterthought.

Where as my point is working with these students has helped my educational experience

Where as my point is working with these students has helped my educational experience

Good for you, but me, I guess I learn from books and facts. Man I've been anti-social for way too long.

I will say one good thing about the study aboard program, lots of cute Filipinas at my school. :D

True that … I guess I am tainted by also being staff here … some of my workers are frigging geniuses

We had this student Yee Way Tan that came from Malaysia he not only had 3 MCSE’s before he came here after he graduated with two BS degrees in 4 years he went on to make like 250,000 a year out in California right out of the gate

Awesome guy got me started on the path I took.

Good for you, but me, I guess I learn from books and facts. Man I've been anti-social for way too long.

Must have been ... Cause with my degree you cant graduate without some Massive frigging group projects

You are forced to learn from eachother

Having the alternitive prospectives was invaluable

I will say one good thing about the study aboard program, lots of cute Filipinas at my school. :D
No complaints here, my wife is a Japanese exchange student at the university I went to. :D

No they missed the mark on most every collage experience I have had in my 6 years here … go figure

I've been in the university system for a little over 8 years now - at three different schools (if you count the one I work at - I know many students, at least). I have yet to see a single actual case of political bias affecting a student's grades. What I have seen is a person complaining that she isn't allowed to harrass people for being gay. Big whoop - that's illegal anyways. That same student claimed "political bias" in one of her classes. Note that she refuses to produce the essays that she claims she got poor grades on because of her political views. Note that the one comment she based this on from her prof came after she repeatedly interrupted a review session to try and start a debate that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Must have been ... Cause with my degree you cant graduate without some Massive frigging group projects

You are forced to learn from eachother

Having the alternitive prospectives was invaluable

I've worked with groups before, I hated it, why because I either get the group that won't let me do any of the work, or I get the group where I do all the work.

Why should being "diverse" be a goal of colleges though? I go to college to learn how to be an archivist! I don't care who I learn it from, or who is learning with me! Hell a mixed lesbian female who is a crossdresser could be learning how to be an archivist right along with me, and I wouldn't give a rats ass, because I'm not here for diversity, I'm here for duh da daaa DAH, to learn! That is what Penn and Teller are saying!

And part of the college experience is interacting with people who are different from you. You may be learning to be an archivist, but that is hardly the only class you are going to take. I was learning to be an engineer, but some of my best experiences were actually in my theology classes - go figure.

A university education is not the same as a trade school education. If you want a trade school, go to one. The university experience is supposed to be more than that - to teach you more than that.

I've been in the university system for a little over 8 years now - at three different schools (if you count the one I work at - I know many students, at least). I have yet to see a single actual case of political bias affecting a student's grades. What I have seen is a person complaining that she isn't allowed to harrass people for being gay. Big whoop - that's illegal anyways. That same student claimed "political bias" in one of her classes. Note that she refuses to produce the essays that she claims she got poor grades on because of her political views. Note that the one comment she based this on from her prof came after she repeatedly interrupted a review session to try and start a debate that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Same here … and we are a hick university. Go figure … last week we had the crazy Christian group preaching at how girls on campus should be more focused on finding themselves a husband instead of getting upidy at school.

Ya know the worst thing that happened ? they set up a kissing booth for same sex kissing only right next to them :) no yelling no trying to speak over them no violence.

It was great

In fact I have been to a few meetings of the republicans club … always respectful listening to all the speakers.

Weird stuff

Like I said their speech does not match up to the reality at least here

I've worked with groups before, I hated it, why because I either get the group that won't let me do any of the work, or I get the group where I do all the work.

Well hand configuring two Zone controllers … a 4 zone AD forest on top of 3 linux clients in under a week by yourself is impossible with any reasonable amount of time

What college do you go to and comon, when you first signed up for college, don't tell me they didn't at least once mention that they were "diverse".

Creighton University, and no they didn't they did mention that there was a 25/75 male/female ratio though, no that thats worked out for me:( :p

Anyway on topic, you hear a lot about how colleges tend to be more liberal in their views, ecspecially in regards to the social sciences and I've always find my self wondering "so what," It is quite possiblely just because the people that are atracted to these positions as an occupation tend to be liberal. I mean I'm willing to bet that a comparable proportion of CEOs and such tend to be a bit more on the conservative side, at least when it comes to economics. I know thats often the case with the economics departments on many schools, that they tend to be more conservative/libertarian than their counter parts in the social sciences. Of course this is all just my opinion, meaning it seems to make since to me that people with diferent interest could also have diferent politics or be atracted to work that seems to fit their politics.

And part of the college experience is interacting with people who are different from you. You may be learning to be an archivist, but that is hardly the only class you are going to take. I was learning to be an engineer, but some of my best experiences were actually in my theology classes - go figure.

A university education is not the same as a trade school education. If you want a trade school, go to one. The university experience is supposed to be more than that - to teach you more than that.

Agreed ... I loved my multicultural philosophy course

I don't work well in groups because I am still getting over the "high and mighty" thing that I built up in secondary. Working at a grocery store is only slowing the process. Working with the general public everyday makes me think that Bender was right: Kill All Humans.

I don't work well in groups because I am still getting over the "high and mighty" thing that I built up in secondary. Working at a grocery store is only slowing the process. Working with the general public everyday makes me think that Bender was right: Kill All Humans.

He was right.

He was right.
Very right.

To those doubters: Yesterday Van City's computers crashed and you could not use debit from them for about 4/5 hours. After seeing a few customers get pissed because they wasted all that time shopping, standing in line at the till then getting told they cannot pay for their groceries, I asked my supervisor why we don't have signs up saying that Van City's debit isn't working. She said, "No, most people are too dumb to read the sign correctly, and will think that they can't use debit from any bank."

Very right.

To those doubters: Yesterday Van City's computers crashed and you could not use debit from them for about 4/5 hours. After seeing a few customers get pissed because they wasted all that time shopping, standing in line at the till then getting told they cannot pay for their groceries, I asked my supervisor why we don't have signs up saying that Van City's debit isn't working. She said, "No, most people are too dumb to read the sign correctly, and will think that they can't use debit from any bank."

Wow... what a way to undermind the general's population intelligence.

I don't work well in groups because I am still getting over the "high and mighty" thing that I built up in secondary. Working at a grocery store is only slowing the process. Working with the general public everyday makes me think that Bender was right: Kill All Humans.

I remember that from working at the local zoo, thankfully I'm now working at a library shelving so I don't have to deal with people as much.

Wow... what a way to undermind the general's population intelligence.

Whats sad is that she's probably right I can remember some real stupid shit from working with the public.

Wow... what a way to undermind the general's population intelligence.
She said that posting signs would piss off more customers.

Of course they act "offended" and somehow they think they have a right to not be offended. News Flash morons, America is a melting pot, not everyone is going to agree with your ideals, so if you get offended easily then you might as well lock yourself inside you room and hide under the mattress.

And how does their acting offended abridge your right to free speech? You know, I've noticed that a good number of self-proclaimed conservatives seem to feel they have a right to not be disagreed with. They can get indignant and self-righteous about an issue, but as soon as someone hits back with like force, it's, "Oh, look at how that angry, unhinged liberal wants to force his views on me!" The same applies in the college environment, and I have a feeling it's at the root of much of this "college bias" myth (well, that and the talking heads). Allow me to provide an example.

I took a course on the New Testament as a freshman. The subject was a critical analysis of key sections and their histories. I found religion interesting and as a confirmed Lutheran, I figured I had a head start, as it turned out others did. One other, in particular, made it her mission to point this out constantly. She has been raised Christian and saw herself as fit to challenge every point which deviated from common Christian teaching with, "Well, what I was taught as a Christian..." This is where the foundation of her argument ended, and when the professor rebutted her with source material, she refused to let it go until the professor forced the discussion on. Eventually, the professor stopped calling on her, and she dropped the class. That's when she started putting up flyers asking, "Have you been the subject of religious persecution by a professor?"

We were ready to crucify that girl ourselves by that time...and it was not for her beliefs, but for her persistant unwillingness to listen to any other idea and insistence on limiting our ability to do so. Now, obviously Christianity is only one tenet associated with modern "conservatives," but its persecutory mindset has jumped from the spiritual to the political ideology. I think this is why some "conservative" students have a hard time at college.

And how does their acting offended abridge your right to free speech? You know, I've noticed that a good number of self-proclaimed conservatives seem to feel they have a right to not be disagreed with. They can get indignant and self-righteous about an issue, but as soon as someone hits back with like force, it's, "Oh, look at how that angry, unhinged liberal wants to force his views on me!" The same applies in the college environment, and I have a feeling it's at the root of much of this "college bias" myth

Youve only noticed this with "self proclaimed conservatives"?

Ive noticed it with self proclaimed humans in general. It certainly seems to be a part of the human condition for humans to react negatively to being vehemently disagreed with. This tendency does not seem to be a result of political affiliation at all. In fact people who are apolitical seem to heact every bit as strongly as liberals and conservatives do when they are pointedly told that they are wrong. No need to believe me of course without confirming it for yourself. Just temporarily ignore whatever political agenda you enjoy and find a nice quiet vantage point from which to objectively watch people enjthusiasticly disagree. Aside from trolls and others with tragic mental problems all others react negatively to being disagreed with. Some react visciously some reasonably and some subtly. No political or economic or religion or sexuality or gender or race is immune.

I hope you try this and learn firsthand a bit of truth. Unless you were just trolling with the old sad "the people opposing my politics are evil and despicable" in order to nab some attention and reaction via insults. If that were the case then instead of hoping you learn I'd feel compelled to hope that at least one of your favorite body parts would fall off and be eaten by albino weasels as soon as practicable.

Why should being "diverse" be a goal of colleges though? I go to college to learn how to be an archivist! I don't care who I learn it from, or who is learning with me! Hell a mixed lesbian female who is a crossdresser could be learning how to be an archivist right along with me, and I wouldn't give a rats ass, because I'm not here for diversity, I'm here for duh da daaa DAH, to learn! That is what Penn and Teller are saying!
Yes, but by that argument you should also stop any resources going to sport, as that's generally not what people are there to study.

Yes, but by that argument you should also stop any resources going to sport, as that's generally not what people are there to study.

Eh, up to the colleges. There are plenty of Community Colleges that don't have sports team, and they've been pretty good.

I have to say, they're really starting to stretch on the whole premise of their show.

When they talked about illegallity of drugs or prostitution, yeah, they make a great case for how the whole idea is bullshit. Same with dinner ettiquette.

But with this... all they're saying is that there's a lot of bullshit at college.

But there's a lot of bullshit everywhere.

College is as much about acculturation as about education.

And as for their big long list of luminaries who never went to college... Yeah, why don't they have a board for all the people who decided that they could skip college and go straight for Hollywood stardom, but then it doesn't work out and they spend the rest of their lives working for shitty wages as waiters and stock clerks? Oh, right! There isn't a board big enough.

Eh, up to the colleges. There are plenty of Community Colleges that don't have sports team, and they've been pretty good.
Well, surely then diversity policies are also up to the colleges?

Eh, yea I can see it. Comon guys, you can't be serious that they aren't on the money about some things. Alot of college do push that they are "diverse" which phrase has become so shallow and meaningless that they might as well say. "Well we let in blacks, asian, hispanic, lesbians, and gays just to show we're "diverse"! God forbid diversity have to do with something beside your skin color or your sexual orientation. Also, alot of college students do drink at college, they have these beer bong, at keggers. I really love the part about people having the "right" to not be offended. They are so right on the money on that one. I have met alot of people here on campus that get offended everytime I talk about getting rid of useless government programs or how Affirmative Action is a racist program. Of course they act "offended" and somehow they think they have a right to not be offended. News Flash morons, America is a melting pot, not everyone is going to agree with your ideals, so if you get offended easily then you might as well lock yourself inside you room and hide under the mattress.Who cares if they act offended? Maybe they are. And maybe they realized that isn't a bad thing. Or maybe you're confusing their disagreement with your position as them being offended.

What college do you go to and comon, when you first signed up for college, don't tell me they didn't at least once mention that they were "diverse".Nope. Boston University. 30,000 students, 3,000 faculty, 4th largest private university in the US. Never once mentioned diversity

SCSUSouthern Connecticut State University by any chance?

Why should being "diverse" be a goal of colleges though? I go to college to learn how to be an archivist! I don't care who I learn it from, or who is learning with me! Hell a mixed lesbian female who is a crossdresser could be learning how to be an archivist right along with me, and I wouldn't give a rats ass, because I'm not here for diversity, I'm here for duh da daaa DAH, to learn! That is what Penn and Teller are saying!Did it ever occur to you that you ARE learning from diversity? And that maybe it is more than just skin color and sexual orientation? If you just want to learn a trade, then go to a trade school. If you want to learn other skills, such as how to work with someone who is nothing like yourself, then go to a college or university. I've made great friends with Saudis, Ethiopians, Indians, Japanese, Hong Kong...ians? Beyond nation of origins, I've lived with a raving conservative for a year. I've met druggies, people who have been abused, people who come from a family of 10 children, people who were raised by a nanny, people who had Moby Dick as their bed time story, Marxists, neo-nazis, anarchists, democrats, republicans, independents, gays, lesbians, bis, straights...people from every SES known to man, right down to a girl who never owned her own clothing right up to a girl whos parents bought her a brand new rolls royce because they didn't feel like shipping her jag from New Hampshire, and god forbid she should drive herself the hour to massachusets. And you know what? I've learned more from that than anything else in college. Now, I can see things from a different point of view.

If all you want to do is learn a trade, you are wasting your time at college. If you want to learn new concepts, about how people outside of yourself and your town function...a new way of understanding the world...then yes, diversity in college is good.




Sorry, this TV show perfectly echoed Santorum's book regarding university, and to both I say this: "You're an idiot and missing the whole picture."

snip

Southern Connecticut State University by any chance?
snip

St cloud state ... local college in minnesota

St cloud state ... local college in minnesota

ahh...okay...same initials as the college a bunch of my friends go to/is 15 minutes away from my house

Youve only noticed this with "self proclaimed conservatives"?

Ive noticed it with self proclaimed humans in general....No political or economic or religion or sexuality or gender or race is immune.

Thanks for the lecture, but I was noting a particularly hypocritical tendency amongst people of this political persuasion, and I thought I pretty specifically outlined what that was (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11701457#post11701457). That people in general take exception to being contradicted is obvious.