NationStates Jolt Archive

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.

Is this a multiple choice question?

Maybe.

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.

Awww.... ;) :p

Either God is not omnipotent or he just wants/has to let you do as you will...

This is a strange question: God is all knowing, so does that mean he knows everything?

It's kinda circular...

But how does he know he's all knowing? I mean what if something changes?

But how does he know he's all knowing? I mean what if something changes?
Again, this is a very similar circular question.

I think you need to sit down for just a minute and work out what 'all knowing' means. It's not hard; the clue is in the words. :)

Because Adam and Eve not only disobeyed God but lied to Him and instead of taking responsibilty for their actions, passed the blame to another. As a result of the Original Sin, we have the world today.

I know what "All-knowing" means. But...Answer the other questions as my thoughts on the all knowing part arent complete.

Again, this is a very similar circular question.

I think you need to sit down for just a minute and work out what 'all knowing' means. It's not hard; the clue is in the words. :)

Well, when the answer does not work out, ONE of your assumptions must be wrong.

Which one, though?

Another circular/annoying question: Can god make a rock so huge that even he can't destroy it?

Because Adam and Eve not only disobeyed God but lied to Him and instead of taking responsibilty for their actions, passed the blame to another. As a result of the Original Sin, we have the world today.

Youre saying that the victims of 9/11 deserved to be killed?

Because Adam and Eve not only disobeyed God but lied to Him and instead of taking responsibilty for their actions, passed the blame to another. As a result of the Original Sin, we have the world today.

Well, when the answer does not work out, ONE of your assumptions must be wrong.

Which one, though?

Another circular/annoying question: Can god make a rock so huge that even he can't destroy it?

Why would he waste his time with that when he can let innocent poeple die?

Well, when the answer does not work out, ONE of your assumptions must be wrong.
Why does the answer not work out?

Another circular/annoying question: Can god make a rock so huge that even he can't destroy it?
Yes, and no.

Everybody keeps assuming god is some nice, cool, laid back kinda guy.

In the OT he explicitly said he was jealous and cruel.

Why does rape and 9/11 happen? cause god wants it to

Youre saying that the victims of 9/11 deserved to be killed?

No, just that we brought it on outselves by disobeying. God could have stopped it, along with everything else horrible that's happened in the world, but we screwed up in the past and God removed his protection as a result. He never said that we couldn't defend ourselves (rather, He says that we're allowed to kill in self-defense), but we have to do it.

So he WANTED some muslim fanatics to destroy some Chritain folks? Wow Gods awsome! He kills poeple! LETS WORSHIP HIM!:headbang:

So he WANTED some muslim fanatics to destroy some Chritain folks? Wow Gods awsome! He kills poeple! LETS WORSHIP HIM!:headbang:

if you don't it'll only get worse

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.

So he WANTED some muslim fanatics to destroy some Chritain folks? Wow Gods awsome! He kills poeple! LETS WORSHIP HIM!:headbang:

Now now, the opening poster clearly says he doesn't want rudeness in this thread.

If only he were still around...

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping?
Yes and yes.
And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Well, depends on your point of view, but I assume that, according to you, they've done nothing wrong.

Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
How so?

Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?
Why would he care if a little insect hanging to the surface of a floating rock questioned him?

if you don't it'll only get worse

I read a book that said I should fear some one who is supposed to be the good guy. Right now hes the lesser of two evils. I'll take my chances with Agnosticism.

I read a book that said I should fear some one who is supposed to be the good guy. Right now hes the lesser of two evils. I'll take my chances with Agnosticism.

Agnosticism is the coward's way out.

I read a book that said I should fear some one who is supposed to be the good guy. Right now hes the lesser of two evils. I'll take my chances with Agnosticism.

fine, you can be an agnostic.

and burn in hell

Yes and yes.

Well, depends on your point of view, but I assume that, according to you, they've done nothing wrong.


How so?


Why would he care if a little insect hanging to the surface of a floating rock questioned him?

One little insect can bring the whole colony down.
Those people where good folks. I knew some of them personaly.

So he WANTED some muslim fanatics to destroy some Chritain folks? Wow Gods awsome! He kills poeple! LETS WORSHIP HIM!:headbang:

No, just that He wasn't going to stop it.

fine, you can be an agnostic.

and burn in hell

I here the devil doesnt enjoy his work. I here he's a non confomist. I here god hates his guts becuase of it.

No, just that He wasn't going to stop it.

Why not?

One little insect can bring the whole colony down.
OK. Go ahead, prove this, destroy the universe, I'll hold my breath.

Those people where good folks. I knew some of them personaly.

Your point?

fine, you can be an agnostic.

and burn in hell

Be careful. If you commit to that AND ARE WRONG, you might find yourself on the other side of The Eternal Fire.

OK. Go ahead, prove this, destroy the universe, I'll hold my breath.



Your point?

Destroy the universe? Why? I mean doing that would be fine and all but living is just to good.

I here the devil doesnt enjoy his work. I here he's a non confomist. I here god hates his guts becuase of it.

I also heard from a venetian man that heretics like you are locked in a pitch-black tomb and burned in an unquenchable inferno for all eternity...

then again, berators like me are thrown into a tar-pit and tortured by demons.....-_-

Because Adam and Eve not only disobeyed God but lied to Him and instead of taking responsibilty for their actions, passed the blame to another. As a result of the Original Sin, we have the world today.

Then why is there no Original Virtuous Act, as in, how come whenever someone in the past obeyed God, rather than disobeyed, humanity wasn't redeemed?

Why would God punish Adam and Eve for committing a sin- disobeying God- before they knew the difference between right and wrong? Genesis makes it clear that man didn't know right from wrong until AFTER eating from the tree. Seems a little unjust on God's part, to punish them for disobeying God before they knew that disobeying God, or anything else for that matter, was wrong.

And isn't God all-knowing? Why would he design a universe that he knew would have original sin? Or any sin? Does he just suck at building universes?

And isn't God all-powerful? Couldn't he have just instantly re-made or reorganized the universe in such a way that the original sin just never happened? Unless we conclude that God WANTS us to in, in which case, God and Satan are indistinguishable, ie., God is evil.

Easier solution: God isn't real. So let's just abolish the fairy tales and get on with our history.

This is a strange question: God is all knowing, so does that mean he knows everything?

It's kinda circular...

Can God know something that he has willed himself to forget?

OK. Go ahead, prove this, destroy the universe, I'll hold my breath.



Your point?

Also my point is THEY DIDNT DO NOTHIN TO DESERVE TO BE KILLED!

Can God know something that he has willed himself to forget?

Good point.

I am suprise no one has brought up Free Will yet. God allows bad things to happen because he gave humans free will, because we have free will, we choose to do these things. God may be all knowing, but he also gave us free will and he can't interfear in our lives, then we wouldn't have free will anymore.

Can God know something that he has willed himself to forget?

Yes, and no.

Also my point is THEY DIDNT DO NOTHIN TO DESERVE TO BE KILLED!

'k. Neither do babies. They die too.


Destroy the universe? Why? I mean doing that would be fine and all but living is just to good.
:rolleyes:
My point is, no, "an insect can't bring down the colony", and God does not care about you complaining about him. Thus, he doesn't waste his time smiting you.

Then why is there no Original Virtuous Act, as in, how come whenever someone in the past obeyed God, rather than disobeyed, humanity wasn't redeemed?

Why would God punish Adam and Eve for committing a sin- disobeying God- before they knew the difference between right and wrong? Genesis makes it clear that man didn't know right from wrong until AFTER eating from the tree. Seems a little unjust on God's part, to punish them for disobeying God before they knew that disobeying God, or anything else for that matter, was wrong.

And isn't God all-knowing? Why would he design a universe that he knew would have original sin? Or any sin? Does he just suck at building universes?

And isn't God all-powerful? Couldn't he have just instantly re-made or reorganized the universe in such a way that the original sin just never happened? Unless we conclude that God WANTS us to in, in which case, God and Satan are indistinguishable, ie., God is evil.

Easier solution: God isn't real. So let's just abolish the fairy tales and get on with our history.

:eek: Some one who agrees? I thought I was being original!:eek:

'k. Neither do babies. They die too.



:rolleyes:
My point is, no, "an insect can't bring down the colony", and God does not care about you complaining about him. Thus, he doesn't waste his time smiting you.

Let me tell you a little story:

A peasant doesnt like the king. He gets support raises an army kills the king and sets up a republic. AKA the french revolution.

Be careful. If you commit to that AND ARE WRONG, you might find yourself on the other side of The Eternal Fire.


did it ever occur to you that i was being sarcastic?

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.


Here is what i believe....yes god knew about 9/11, he also knows about every killing etc. However, he also knows about every fight you ever got into, everytime you swore at your parents, everytime that you lied, cheated, took something that was no yours, ect.

Does this mean that, everytime you do something bad, everytime you will end up hurting yourself or someone else God should step in? If god stops someone from killing someone then he should stop someone EVERYTIME they are going to do something to hurt another person.

I dont know about you but that sounds like a dictatorship to me.

And asking what those people did to deserve it is silly. What do little kids do at school to deserve getting picked on? Nothing, but they still get picked on. And why? Because some jerky kid gets off on being the bully. I don't like that at all....but i would like it even worse if god stepped in every second and stopped the kids from teasing, or lying to their parents, or stealing candy, what would be the point in that? The kids would never grow, never learn.

I know that talking about kids teasing is a far cry from 9/11 or someone being raped. But where should god draw the line on our freedoms? Either we have free will or we dont. its a black and white issue.

That one peasant(The insect) brought down the colony(king and followers) and started something new.

What god?

'k. Neither do babies. They die too.



:rolleyes:
My point is, no, "an insect can't bring down the colony", and God does not care about you complaining about him. Thus, he doesn't waste his time smiting you.
be careful: if you suggest that God does not care for one of God's own flock, you destroy any christian argument you can possibly make. Unless you're OT, and then it's a different God altogether.

Here is what i believe....yes god knew about 9/11, he also knows about every killing etc. However, he also knows about every fight you ever got into, everytime you swore at your parents, everytime that you lied, cheated, took something that was no yours, ect.

Does this mean that, everytime you do something bad, everytime you will end up hurting yourself or someone else God should step in? If god stops someone from killing someone then he should stop someone EVERYTIME they are going to do something to hurt another person.

I dont know about you but that sounds like a dictatorship to me.

And asking what those people did to deserve it is silly. What do little kids do at school to deserve getting picked on? Nothing, but they still get picked on. And why? Because some jerky kid gets off on being the bully. I don't like that at all....but i would like it even worse if god stepped in every second and stopped the kids from teasing, or lying to their parents, or stealing candy, what would be the point in that? The kids would never grow, never learn.

I know that talking about kids teasing is a far cry from 9/11 or someone being raped. But where should god draw the line on our freedoms? Either we have free will or we dont. its a black and white issue.

Yes but that was a mass murder. 2,432 dead in two hours. If god did love us then he would of prevented it. And flight 93 stopped their terros it but also those people died.

Let me tell you a little story:

A peasant doesnt like the king. He gets support raises an army kills the king and sets up a republic. AKA the french revolution.

SO you think Louis XVI was omnipotent/omnipresent/omniscient? The history books sure have changed...

Yes but that was a mass murder. 2,432 dead in two hours. If god did love us then he would of prevented it. And flight 93 stopped their terros it but also those people died.

ZOMG YOU'VE WON THE LOTTERY!!!


God does not love us. He does not give a fuck about us. That should be obvious.

SO you think Louis XVI was omnipotent/omnipresent/omniscient? The history books sure have changed...

And Tsar Nicholas II could read the minds of those who weren't born yet.

Free Will People!

Yes but that was a mass murder. 2,432 dead in two hours. If god did love us then he would of prevented it. And flight 93 stopped their terros it but also those people died.


Why do you think that "if god did love us he would have stopped it" ??? Frequently parents will see their children making bad choices, but they let them make them, because they are their choices to make. They dont lock them up and force them to do the right thing. People are free to do as they please.

Again i shall say, either you are free to do as you choose or you are not. You cant be "partly free". It is a black and white issue.

And Tsar Nicholas II could read the minds of those who weren't born yet.

:eek:

I thought that was Rasputin...

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.

Don't know much about Christian theology do you? They didn't get screwed. Because they were saved, they will get to live forever with God. That is what they believe.

Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?


Again no knowledge of theology. Christians believe God has given you free will. You make the decision and he will not "smack you down" in this life. However, if you don't repent and accept Jesus as you Savior you will spend eternity in hell.

NOTE: The views expressed above are those of Christians and not necessarily my personal views.

OK consider this:
A sin can be classified as knowing of something bad that is about to happen and not do anything about it. So if god knew about 9/11 then he has sinned by not preventing it. Therefor he has lied(another sin) and is not without sin. Either that or he does not exist.

Yes but that was a mass murder. 2,432 dead in two hours. If god did love us then he would of prevented it. And flight 93 stopped their terros it but also those people died.

Gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners, Jews dead in 3 years: >6 million. God didn't even do anything to make the Allies believe that Aushwitz and Bergen-Belsen existed until 1944.

140 000 dead in Hiroshima, 114 000 dead in Nagasaki.

Why should Sept. 11 have merited special attention?

OK consider this:
A sin can be classified as knowing of something bad that is about to happen and not do anything about it. So if god knew about 9/11 then he has sinned by not preventing it. Therefor he has lied(another sin) and is not without sin. Either that or he does not exist.

Gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners, Jews dead in 3 years: >6 million. God didn't even do anything to make the Allies believe that Aushwitz and Bergen-Belsen existed until 1944.

140 000 dead in Hiroshima, 114 000 dead in Nagasaki.

Why should Sept. 11 have merited special attention?

Why not? 9/11 has the same # as the police.Ironicy guided me to that.

OK consider this:
A sin can be classified as knowing of something bad that is about to happen and not do anything about it. So if god knew about 9/11 then he has sinned by not preventing it. Therefor he has lied(another sin) and is not without sin. Either that or he does not exist.

a sin is disobedience to a commandment of God. Everything else is just Being A Very Bad Boy (or Girl).

So i dont cheat kill steal maim... I'm sinless. Also I dont worship any god so the "Shall put no other gods before me" is null.

I read a book that said I should fear some one who is supposed to be the good guy. Right now hes the lesser of two evils. I'll take my chances with Agnosticism.

Which is better?
1. To live your life as if there is no God then die and find out there is a God.
2. To live your life as if there is a God then die and find out there is not a God.

OK consider this:
A sin can be classified as knowing of something bad that is about to happen and not do anything about it. So if god knew about 9/11 then he has sinned by not preventing it. Therefor he has lied(another sin) and is not without sin. Either that or he does not exist.

Thats not true at all. You logic is flawed. First off the comparison is not very good. If i know someone is going to rob a bank i should tell the police so they can stop them. That is a far cry from god using his power to force the person to do his will. Also, it is not a sin to do nothing. No where in the bible does it say that one person is responable or accountable for another actions, that is mans law, not gods.

Again we go back to the issue of free will. When should god step in and stop people from doing harm? When they are stealing a pencil from a store, when they are lying to their parents about what time they got home, when they are hitting someone, when they are killing someone??

Third time...either you are free to do as you like...or you are not.

Which is better?
1. To live your life as if there is no God then die and find out there is a God.
2. To live your life as if there is a God then die and find out there is not a God.

you won't find out anything once you die if there is no God.

Which is better?
1. To live your life as if there is no God then die and find out there is a God.
2. To live your life as if there is a God then die and find out there is not a God.

#1, seeing as if there was no afterlife, id just be well...dead :p

Which is better?
1. To live your life as if there is no God then die and find out there is a God.
2. To live your life as if there is a God then die and find out there is not a God.

Well I would rather live with my beliefs then if there is a god defy him to the very end. Maybe get a punch or two in.

So i dont cheat kill steal maim... I'm sinless. Also I dont worship any god so the "Shall put no other gods before me" is null.

A lot of peopl put money before god. (not saying you do) But all the greedy bastards who have millions and spend all their money on cars and clothes is making money their god. just a fun fact.

A lot of peopl put money before god. (not saying you do) But all the greedy bastards who have millions and spend all their money on cars and clothes is making money their god. just a fun fact.

That's not a fact, that's an opinon. A fact is when you say something like... well not like anything in this thread anyways.

and it wasn't fun either.

LOL. I was about to do this :upyours: but then decided to do this :sniper:

That's not a fact, that's an opinon. A fact is when you say something like... well not like anything in this thread anyways.

and it wasn't fun either.


yes but the phrase is "fun fact" not fun opinion. however you are right.

if i was god i would be all like all, "hey dudes, i created the universe, what else do want from me? fix your own problems and praying, i'm trying watch lost."

and i guess our opinions of what is fun differ. alas, such is life.

if i was god i would be all like all, "hey dudes, i created the universe, what else do want from me? fix your own problems and praying, i'm trying watch lost."

I'd be like "Do I call you when I sit down to eat?"

a sin is disobedience to a commandment of God. Everything else is just Being A Very Bad Boy (or Girl).

So, let's say, for a hypothetical situation:

The world today. I am god (one can only dream). I look at the world today. I see what a heck-hole it has become. For the sake of my workload and to avoid losing even more souls to the guy down there, I get rid of it. Kaputnik.

Surely, if there was a god, this is what he'd do? If only to stop his bad souls in-tray from overflowing...

So, let's say, for a hypothetical situation:

The world today. I am god (one can only dream). I look at the world today. I see what a heck-hole it has become. For the sake of my workload and to avoid losing even more souls to the guy down there, I get rid of it. Kaputnik.

Surely, if there was a god, this is what he'd do? If only to stop his bad souls in-tray from overflowing...

Well Kaputnik is what you'd do; me and God, we're going to send the Messiah. Takes longer, but the fireworks are to die for.

Well Kaputnik is what you'd do; me and God, we're going to send the Messiah. Takes longer, but the fireworks are to die for.

I'll bring the popcorn.

I'll bring the popcorn.

Don't forget the barbeque sauce...and I'll take buttered.

Don't forget the barbeque sauce...and I'll take buttered.

Any honey?
Well back on topic. ANSWER ZEE QUESTION!

Any honey?
Well back on topic. ANSWER ZEE QUESTION!

Ah, yes, quite.

Let's see.

Presumably, if God were to bring the smaketh down, you'd have no chance to repent, would you? maybe that's what he's waiting for....

Duh, because there isnt one. People need to get over it.

Duh, because there isnt one. People need to get over it.

Well, yes, I know that.

But of course, this is entirely hypothetical in my case. I have friends who are religious, and I respect their beliefs as much as they respect mine. If they ask me what they think their god would do, I answer as I believe I would should I believe in their god.

Seems fair to me.

Any honey?
Well back on topic. ANSWER ZEE QUESTION!

I forgot what it was.

Oh yes. No, because God made a covenant after the Flood to not do that again, not even to best it over Satan methinks.

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.

Because death, destruction, hatred, fear, loss, suffering, hardship and conflict are all vital forces to the development of Human kind.

There are two main forces that drive biological and technological evolution, survival and reproduction. A person must survive better then everyone else to reproduce and ensure the survival of his offspring. If it wasn't for hardship and war we would have never evolved out of the stone age. We would have been complacent merely to exist in a life of ease. Such harmony has never, does not, and will never exist. If God wanted that for us, he'd have made us vegetables.

If a child is sheltered from all suffering and spared the realities of life then he will never mature, just grow into a larger and more powerful being that understands nothing about the world he lives in. He will not have the adequate knowledge to survive on his own or to understand the consequences of his misguided and immature actions. Ultimately he will become destructive.

It is the same with the human race as we know it; every generation that passes contributes a little more experience, understanding and maturity to the race at large. God would be acting extremely irresponsibly if he sheltered us from ourselves, not to mention defeating the purpose of creation in the first place.

We create the atrocities we use against ourselves, it is only right that we endure the consequences of those atrocities so that we may learn to do better.

To our credit, we have become advanced enough as a species to develop nuclear weapons and we only used them twice. The same technology gives power to millions of people around the world. This is a lesson learned well.

I forgot what it was.

Oh yes. No, because God made a covenant after the Flood to not do that again, not even to best it over Satan methinks.

Nono. He daid he wouldnt use a Flood to do it again. I think the video game Halo hit the nail on the head.

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.

life isnt about being fair and getting what you deserve. good and bad happen to us all at random. its all in how you deal with it.

god wont make life nicey nice for you or for any true believer. he will help you get through your troubles and help you live the best life possible given your circumstances and the vagaries of fate.

maybe you dont think thats good enough but thats all you will get from god. accept it or not as you will.

Because death, destruction, hatred, fear, loss, suffering, hardship and conflict are all vital forces to the development of Human kind.

There are two main forces that drive biological and technological evolution, survival and reproduction. A person must survive better then everyone else to reproduce and ensure the survival of his offspring. If it wasn't for hardship and war we would have never evolved out of the stone age. We would have been complacent merely to exist in a life of ease. Such harmony has never, does not, and will never exist. If God wanted that for us, he'd have made us vegetables.

If a child is sheltered from all suffering and spared the realities of life then he will never mature, just grow into a larger and more powerful being that understands nothing about the world he lives in. He will not have the adequate knowledge to survive on his own or to understand the consequences of his misguided and immature actions. Ultimately he will become destructive.

It is the same with the human race as we know it; every generation that passes contributes a little more experience, understanding and maturity to the race at large. God would be acting extremely irresponsibly if he sheltered us from ourselves, not to mention defeating the purpose of creation in the first place.

We create the atrocities we use against ourselves, it is only right that we endure the consequences of those atrocities so that we may learn to do better.

To our credit, we have become advanced enough as a species to develop nuclear weapons and we only used them twice. The same technology gives power to millions of people around the world. This is a lesson learned well.

life isnt about being fair and getting what you deserve. good and bad happen to us all at random. its all in how you deal with it.

god wont make life nicey nice for you or for any true believer. he will help you get through your troubles and help you live the best life possible given your circumstances and the vagaries of fate.

maybe you dont think thats good enough but thats all you will get from god. accept it or not as you will.
Acording to the bible fate does not exist that god makes everything happen.

Nono. He daid he wouldnt use a Flood to do it again. I think the video game Halo hit the nail on the head.

ooh, an interesting concept. definately a better alternative, in my opinion.

Acording to the bible fate does not exist that god makes everything happen.

the bible is wrong

good and bad happen to us all. god set up an imperfect world for us to live in. he promises us that the NEXT life will be perfect.

Acording to the bible fate does not exist that god makes everything happen.

And, noting that, technically, god means for people to die, yes? Thus meaning he kills them.

Quod erat demostrandum that God breaks his own commandments.
This says to me that if a god can't live by his own rules, should we even care that he exists? after all, he's very strict on us, apparently.

:eek: Some one who agrees? I thought I was being original!:eek:

You thought you invented Atheism?

First there is no original sin. You can not find it in the Bible. Second people are not God. God is not people. Therefore peoples actions are not God's action. Therefore God did not cause 9/11. Simple but true.

First there is no original sin. You can not find it in the Bible. Second people are not God. God is not people. Therefore peoples actions are not God's action. Therefore God did not cause 9/11. Simple but true.

However, if god means for all things that happen to happen, he did cause it, because he meant for those thoughts to enter the terrorists' minds, etc.

However, if god means for all things that happen to happen, he did cause it, because he meant for those thoughts to enter the terrorists' minds, etc.

No, that is not true. God means for people to love each other. Our thoughts are ours; they belong to us. We posses them. We act upon them; or choose to not act upon them.

Lets kill God!!! he is starting all this shit with us!!!:upyours:

God's an arsehole

No, that is not true. God means for people to love each other. Our thoughts are ours; they belong to us. We posses them. We act upon them; or choose to not act upon them.

Interesting. I may well stand corrected.

Let the flamers go somewhere else.

Acording to the bible fate does not exist that god makes everything happen.

So? The Bible says a lot of things...

Regardless, God is not some judgmental, patriarchal voyeur with a beard and bipolar personality disorder who looks inexplicably like Zeus. He's the one that decides a piece of lead propelled at speeds of several thousand feet per second is going to seriously fuck up a biological constructs ability to sustain hemostasis. He does not decide whether or not the one behind this has the “right” or “ability” to cause this consequences. That’s up to us.

In ancient times when God was more interventionist, He repeatedly found that humans didn't always do what he wanted them to do. He could have forced them, but He chose instead to let humans have free will.

First there is no original sin. You can not find it in the Bible. Second people are not God. God is not people. Therefore peoples actions are not God's action. Therefore God did not cause 9/11. Simple but true.

Of course God is people. Any god without worshippers fails.

Furthermore, God is interpreted differently by entire sects, let alone people, therefore, God must be people.

Most flamers do make valid points.

God's an arsehole
Aren't you a Muslim? You worship the same God as I do, just under a different name.

So? The Bible says a lot of things...

Regardless, God is not some judgmental, patriarchal voyeur with a beard and bipolar personality disorder who looks inexplicably like Zeus. He's the one that decides a piece of lead propelled at speeds of several thousand feet per second is going to seriously fuck up a biological constructs ability to sustain hemostatus. He does not decide whether or not the one behind this has the “right” or “ability” to cause this consequences. That’s up to us.

Ah, people don't kill people, guns kill people. Bad gun! No!

Most flamers do make valid points.

is that at me?

Interesting. I may well stand corrected.

The example of 9/11 is an example of how human thoughts have twisted the original ideals and principles of a wonderful religion and turned it into something obsence and contrary to God's and the Prophets intent. This is not the first time this has happened, but it will not happen in the future because humanity is climbing out of this age of adolescense and into an age of spiritual maturity.

No, the bullet caused its target's body to become unable to sustain its own life. The Laws of Physics made the gun possible and the one bloke decided that it was a good idea to set this all in motion. He's the one with moral responsibility; however, moral responsibility is intangible and really can't hurt anyone. That's the bullets job.

Of course God is people. Any god without worshippers fails.

Furthermore, God is interpreted differently by entire sects, let alone people, therefore, God must be people.

It is impossible for the Creator to be the created.

Oh, and God think you all fucking suck horse cock on the third Friday of every month.

Yes, this is the authoritative word of God.

It is impossible for the Creator to be the created.

Unless the creating people allow for this impossibility with the very easy touch of 'God has always been'. Astoundingly simple, and obviously ironclad proof. The ancient greeks had gods that were created.

Unless the creating people allow for this impossibility with the very easy touch of 'God has always been'. Astoundingly simple, and obviously ironclad proof. The ancient greeks had gods that were created.

If this is really true (or just human misunderstanding) then we are all "Gods" and we are all responsible for what happens. So you caused the 9/11 terrorist attack. I prefer to believe that the ancient greeks had it wrong. They had other ideas that we now know are wrong. Although they had many very advanced and wonderful ideas they were mistaken in many others. Isn't it wonderful that God allows us to use our minds to understand the world around us and the moral guidelines to safely use the knowledge.

Let me tell you a little story:

A peasant doesnt like the king. He gets support raises an army kills the king and sets up a republic. AKA the french revolution.
That is the greatest oversimplification of the French revolution that I have ever heard. And beyond that, it is a terrible analogy and does not agree with the point you made.

I am suprise no one has brought up Free Will yet. God allows bad things to happen because he gave humans free will, because we have free will, we choose to do these things. God may be all knowing, but he also gave us free will and he can't interfear in our lives, then we wouldn't have free will anymore.
*Claps*

This is pretty much the end of the argument at hand (and also seg-ways into the Clockmaker hypothesis - below).

Which is better?
1. To live your life as if there is no God then die and find out there is a God.
2. To live your life as if there is a God then die and find out there is not a God.
The age old question. However, it also begs the question as to whether God (in option 1.) would be upset with you disbelief or not? (And what God would do...)

if i was god i would be all like all, "hey dudes, i created the universe, what else do want from me? fix your own problems and praying, i'm trying watch lost."
Achem... Anyone heard of the Clockmaker hypothesis?

To sum it up, it is: God created the universe and then stepped aside, never interfering again.

(God is the clockmaker, the universe is the clock. Build it and let it run its course)

Because death, destruction, hatred, fear, loss, suffering, hardship and conflict are all vital forces to the development of Human kind.

There are two main forces that drive biological and technological evolution, survival and reproduction. A person must survive better then everyone else to reproduce and ensure the survival of his offspring. If it wasn't for hardship and war we would have never evolved out of the stone age. We would have been complacent merely to exist in a life of ease. Such harmony has never, does not, and will never exist. If God wanted that for us, he'd have made us vegetables.

If a child is sheltered from all suffering and spared the realities of life then he will never mature, just grow into a larger and more powerful being that understands nothing about the world he lives in. He will not have the adequate knowledge to survive on his own or to understand the consequences of his misguided and immature actions. Ultimately he will become destructive.

It is the same with the human race as we know it; every generation that passes contributes a little more experience, understanding and maturity to the race at large. God would be acting extremely irresponsibly if he sheltered us from ourselves, not to mention defeating the purpose of creation in the first place.

We create the atrocities we use against ourselves, it is only right that we endure the consequences of those atrocities so that we may learn to do better.

To our credit, we have become advanced enough as a species to develop nuclear weapons and we only used them twice. The same technology gives power to millions of people around the world. This is a lesson learned well.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Aren't you a Muslim? You worship the same God as I do, just under a different name.
Sort of... It's actually the same name in a different language (English: God = Arabic: Allah). However, it is not entirely the same God. Muslims obviously do not accept the Trinity or Jesus (accept as a profit).




However, this all brings me to one question that I have been thinking about a lot. Do you believe in God? Now, the question seems simple and like beating a dead horse, but it is slightly different. The difference is this: Do you believe in God? Not what Man says about God (e.g. the Bible), but just some idea of God.

This is what I believe.

In all the Divine Books the promise of the Divine Presence hath been explicitly recorded. By this Presence is meant the Presence of Him Who is the Dayspring of the signs, and the Dawning-Place of the clear tokens, and the Manifestation of the Excellent Names, and the Source of the attributes, of the true God, exalted be His glory. God in His Essence and in His own Self hath ever been unseen, inaccessible, and unknowable. By Presence, therefore, is meant the Presence of the One Who is His Vicegerent amongst men. He, moreover, hath never had, nor hath He, any peer or likeness. For were He to have 119 any peer or likeness, how could it then be demonstrated that His being is exalted above, and His essence sanctified from, all comparison and likeness?

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 118)

sort of... It's actually the same name in a different language (English: God = Arabic: Allah). However, it is not entirely the same God. Muslims obviously do not accept the Trinity or Jesus (accept as a profit).




However, this all brings me to one question that I have been thinking about a lot. Do you believe in God? Now, the question seems simple and like beating a dead horse, but it is slightly different. The difference is this: Do you believe in God? Not what Man says about God (e.g. the Bible), but just some idea of God.[/QUOTE]

I regard to what Muslims accept. Muslims do not accept the concept of the Trinity, but many Christians also do not accept this concept. Remember that the Trinity is not mentioned by Christ, rather the Trinity was conceived by humans as a way to explain what they believed Christ had told them about His relationship with His Father. I believe that the early Christians got it wrong. It was and and still is a difficult concept. Humanity has gained much knowledge in the past 2k yrs. The idea that Christ was not the physical son of God is just one of them.

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.

its simple there really is no god god is just peoples way of explaining what they dont know enough about to beable to explain any other way. and if all you "christians" say im going to hell for saying this i dont care because its the truth no mater how much you may wana deny it.

In a recent friendly debate with a friend I was repeatedly told that god was all knowing. So wouldn't God know of 9/11? How about a raping? And whats more what did those poeple do to deserve that?
Almost every one in the U.S is a Christian so asuming those where Christian poeple who had apparently been "Saved" they just got screwed over by God.
Also, if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it then why hasn't he brung the smacketh down on me for questioning him?

*Note: This is for debate not flaming. Keep your smacktarded flames to yourself.
Because god is an inconsistent farytale. "Hold on, if the stork really does bring babies, where does he get them from?"

Because god is an inconsistent farytale. "Hold on, if the stork really does bring babies, where does he get them from?"

Really, there's a passage in... any holy text that refers to storks bringing babies? Fascinating...

This is pretty much the end of the argument at hand (and also seg-ways into the Clockmaker hypothesis - below).The end? If anything, it's the beginning. Riddle me this: if the deity in question knows all, then how can we have free will?

It's a perfectly simple paradox. If the deity knows whether or not I'll brew some coffee when I'm done typing this, then how can I possibly have any influence on whether or not I brew some coffee when I'm done typing this?

What if I fail to notice my shoelaces have become untied on my way to work tomorrow, and consequently stumble infront of a bus & die horribly. Whill it be the deity's fault because it knew I wouldn't notice & thus prevented me from doing just that?The age old question. However, it also begs the question as to whether God (in option 1.) would be upset with you disbelief or not? (And what God would do...)But before you answer that, you'll have to figure out some way of determining just which deity or pantheon option 1 refers to. After all, some don't give a toss, others are impossible to please & yet others have personal grudges they supposedly take out on us (which is of course good & rightious for some unexplained reason).Achem... Anyone heard of the Clockmaker hypothesis?Which begs a couple of questions. What cause, for example, can there possibly be to suspect the existence of a deity if it's a clockmaker? How can humans have knowledge about the nature and/or will of such a critter?Couldn't have said it better myself.I disagree. If history shows us anything, it is that humanity as a whole is apparently incapable of not basing their livelyhoods on the misery & death of eachother. This is every bit as true today as it was 1,000 or 10,000 years ago. If one can say that we've learned from it, the knowledge we've gained is about how to go about it with increasing efficiency.

Presently we have the wealth & technology to eradicate poverty. Poverty is the single greatest source of death & human misery. We continually choose not to eradicate poverty because we've based our lives on profiting from it. To claim that we take some sort of humanist lesson from the misery of ourselves & others, couldn't possibly be further from the truth.Sort of... It's actually the same name in a different language (English: God = Arabic: Allah). However, it is not entirely the same God. Muslims obviously do not accept the Trinity or Jesus (accept as a profit).In other words: same shit, different gravey.Do you believe in God? Not what Man says about God (e.g. the Bible), but just some idea of God.No. The world, even just our own species, is incredibly beautiful. To attribute this mindblowing experience that is life to some random figment of imagination, is to cheapen everything we are & everything that is. To me, the very idea is monstrously insane.