NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, another alternate history thread by me. Inspired by the discussion in "Should America Become Isolationist" thread. Today's question is... What if the French HADN'T helped the U.S. out in the Revolutionary war, for one reason or the other. Please explain world event up to the present day. You don't have to go into detail, just the really big changes.

Well let's see. If the French hadn't been around I could safely say the British would have quickly and decisively overwhelmed the rebel colonists, considering the ranks of the colonists with the French were about four fifths French.

Well let's see. If the French hadn't been around I could safely say the British would have quickly and decisively overwhelmed the rebel colonists, considering the ranks of the colonists with the French were about four fifths French.
I'm not sure how "quick and decisive" it would have been, considering that the colonists had been fighting it out for years before the French finally stepped in, and had already started to wear down the British through attrition.

Bah! The french didn't show up till near the end of the war. They hastened its conclusion, yes. But, they weren't absolutely neccessary.

well im gonna agree with what you said in the other thread there would definately be a lot more indians running about, which tbh would be good, it is/was a great culture

Well, without the French blockade, there would have been more supplies and troops for the British.

Funny how different history is depending on whether you ask a right-wing or left-wing American. I think the reason for that would be a more interesting discussion.

Also, without the French helping the colonists, there probably would not have been a French Revolution, because then there would not have been a severe strain on its economy that the sending of troops, food and money created. It's odd the effect one action can have...

Bah! The french didn't show up till near the end of the war. They hastened its conclusion, yes. But, they weren't absolutely neccessary.

So you're saying that without the blockade the French navy supplied at Yorktown, the British couldn't have POSSIBLY broken out of Yorktown? And that without the expert training the French gave our troops, we still would've had the tactics to win? And without all the troops the French supplied us, we would've won a war of a attrition? And without the leadership of French officers, we would've been able to command our soldiers ourselves?

Yes, another alternate history thread by me. Inspired by the discussion in "Should America Become Isolationist" thread. Today's question is... What if the French HADN'T helped the U.S. out in the Revolutionary war, for one reason or the other. Please explain world event up to the present day. You don't have to go into detail, just the really big changes.

Well, I guess that the americans would've enlisted Indians and they would be more present on the East Coast due to equality... But, overall, not much.

At the most extreme, an Iroquis States of America.
at least extreme, same-same.

So you're saying that without the blockade the French navy supplied at Yorktown, the British couldn't have POSSIBLY broken out of Yorktown?
Yorktown was the third most important thing that the French did in the Revolution. The first was shipping gun powder to the colonists, and the second was dragging the whole of Europe (The Spanish and Dutch also backed the Americans, though they get no credit at all). However . . .
And that without the expert training the French gave our troops, we still would've had the tactics to win?
The American soldiers weren't trained by the French, they were trained by years of fighting against the British, the Indians, the Germans, and each other.
And without all the troops the French supplied us, we would've won a war of a attrition?
One doesn't have to win against a foriegn imperial power, merely make themselves such a pain in the ass that sticking around becomes more expensive than simply giving up and going home, ie India and Vietnam.
And without the leadership of French officers, we would've been able to command our soldiers ourselves?
Officially, Washington was in command of the French forces as well as American.

Bah! The french didn't show up till near the end of the war. They hastened its conclusion, yes. But, they weren't absolutely neccessary.

Indeed. Twas a lesson the Americans learnt well, and applied to the World Wars nearly 150 years later.

Jeder von euch würde Deutsch sprechen! :p

as DCD stated, I think the French, Spanish, and Dutch were the most important players in the revolution. Rather than being about only the 13 Atlantic North American colonies, it became the caribbean. The tiny island of Barbados was, at the time, the most valuable colony in the world, worth easily more than all of Canada because of sugar.

The majority of the "American revolution"'s fighting happened in the Caribbean.

Yes, another alternate history thread by me. Inspired by the discussion in "Should America Become Isolationist" thread. Today's question is... What if the French HADN'T helped the U.S. out in the Revolutionary war, for one reason or the other. Please explain world event up to the present day. You don't have to go into detail, just the really big changes.

This remninds me of The Two Georges, a rather good book by Harry Turttledove (and inexplicably co-written by Richard Dreyfuss). [1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Georges)] The premise is that the US remained a part of the British Empire, and the action takes place in modern times. It outlines some interesting developments, some of which are listed here: http://www-smi.stanford.edu/people/kxl/2Gannotations.html

The English were already at war with the French in Europe, we were just an annoying side-bar. We would have eventually won, largely because the British were too busy with other concerns and decided that they could deal with us later (as they tried to do in the War of 1812 with similar results for similar reasons). The biggest effect would probably have been in France. Our Revolution spurred theirs and if the French participants in ours had not brought our revolutionary ideas home, their revolution would either not have happened or would have been substantially delayed and possibly unsuccessful, which, in turn means that Napoleon would not have become emperor.

The English were already at war with the French in Europe, we were just an annoying side-bar. We would have eventually won, largely because the British were too busy with other concerns and decided that they could deal with us later (as they tried to do in the War of 1812 with similar results for similar reasons). The biggest effect would probably have been in France. Our Revolution spurred theirs and if the French participants in ours had not brought our revolutionary ideas home, their revolution would either not have happened or would have been substantially delayed and possibly unsuccessful, which, in turn means that Napoleon would not have become emperor.

No... There was an uneasy treaty between France and England. France decided this would be the best time to deal blows to England as it was in a war with on of their colonies. And besides France, Spain and the Dutch also helped in the war, although more with the attacking of England instead of supplying us. But they still were the determining factor in the war.

There's no way to tell for certain how things would have turned out. The war could have carried on for a longer time with either side winning or ended sooner with the colonies losing. Someone else could have taken Frances place or a second war could start up after the first failed. The world would probably look very different but there is no way to say what it would look like. Personally I think we'd all end up wearing nothing but shower curtains, sombreros, and sandals. And something about bacon, yeah?

No... There was an uneasy treaty between France and England. France decided this would be the best time to deal blows to England as it was in a war with on of their colonies. And besides France, Spain and the Dutch also helped in the war, although more with the attacking of England instead of supplying us. But they still were the determining factor in the war.

Very good, grasshopper. I do believe that it still holds that we would have eventually freed ourselves of the English, and that, without French participation, the French Revolution, if it had happened, would have had a very different outcome.