NationStates Jolt Archive

Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?

We have had two incidents recently where the Muslims felt their religion was being insulted, the cartoons and the Pope’s speech. In both cases, the Muslims took to the streets in protest, firebombed churches and embassies, and threatened to kill people.

Then we have Muslim leaders like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calling for the elimination of the Jews and the hosting of a display of anti-Christian cartoons. Yet, we do not see Jews or Christians taking to the streets in protest, burning flags, firebombing Mosques and calling for the faithful to kill Ahmadinejad.

Why is there such a different reaction to these real or perceived insults?

That's because Islam hasn't really "matured" as a religion, but Judaism and Chrisanity have. I've never heard about Jewish extremists, perhpas because they "matured" a LONG time ago and Christianity didn't even start "maturing" until about 300 years ago. :eek:

If you think about it, this happens often in society. Although it is just not Christians, Muslims, and Jews, it can be many other things. The people who are opressed by the majority, in this case, Muslims, are free to insult and strike back at others because it seems wrong to fight back at them. Is it racist for a black person or a mexican to insult a white person? In society today it is not looked upon as harshly as when a white person insults them. It is the same idea here. Because the target of opression is on the Muslims, they are free to do things like this without seeming harsh or extreme. But if someone burned down a mosque, it would be recieved with such an outrage. However, please note that I do know that not all Muslims go out in the streets and burn churches, I do not mean to sound stereotypical, or that I myself am prejudice. I'm one of the least prejudiced people I know, and I live in an area where people tend to be racist or prejudiced against other people. I just don't understand why it's necessary... Or why people can get away with certain things just because we feel bad about something that's happened to that particular group of people.

The Jews had the Diaspora, which totally annihilated their ability to be extremists, Christianity had the reformation, which radically shifted everyone's perspective, and forced people to accept differences, but Islam has not had such similar things, which is a great tragedy. Islam needs a reformation.

Jews have no need to take to the streets. They have the ADL. Christians have no need to take to the streets. They have the US military.

The Jews had the Diaspora, which totally annihilated their ability to be extremists, Christianity had the reformation, which radically shifted everyone's perspective, and forced people to accept differences, but Islam has not had such similar things, which is a great tragedy. Islam needs a reformation.

Kind of ironic, considering it's the Evangelical Protestants that are the intolerant Christians (well, them and Pope Benedict XVI).

I suspect it has to do with perception of what is and is not a threat.

Jews are somewhat used to it at this point. Add to it a tradition of self-depricating humor, and you have a fairly passive group. Muslims respond violently to anything they take as a threat, but Christians do too. Mind you, I'm not trying to imply the reaction is the same, but they do react. Christians burned the Beatles albums just because Lennon said they are bigger than Jesus. Some frequently spout out about how they are being persecuted in America and the west.

All three groups react to percieved threats. I suspect that it comes down to how devoted you are to your religion

Because it's a percieved clash of civilications, it's a east-vs-west thing, it's because many muslims (many arabs) feel that they haven't got any other means of defense against a percieved attack, a percieved war, against their religion. In adition, some are using the incidents as excuses for powerplays and to strengthen their positions in different cases. Those who agitate the strongest for the destruction of an external enemy is those who gets the most support.

The jews and christians on the other hand, are the top dogs. A cartoon won't outrage the majority, nor be seen as a part in a war to eradicate the religion. The threats are ignored as the "west" has the military might to protect themselves, and it isn't really plausible that christianity or judaism will be wiped out. Also, there are two important aspects:

The culture of the west means one speaks a little softer. While some muslims scream and burn embassies, the westeners sit at the dinnertable and agrees that genocide is an acceptable course of action. Both are unacceptable reactions - both happens to a large extent.

Secondly, it's not really about religion anymore. It's just a pretext. It's all about politics in the muslim world - and in the secular west, nobody really cares.

Ah, this in not an accurate description as it's written in a hurry - I have some apple pie waiting - but I hope you catch my drift. Attack away ;)

I think islam is engaging in a reformation as we speak, and what we are seeing here are the birth-pangs of enlightenment. When christianity reformed there were several wars between protestants and catholics. Now we are seeing a war between progressive islam and fundementalist islam.

Because Islam is built upon violence and anger. Its chief survival point in the 21st century is the existence of controversy around which to swell up emotions in the underclass. Keep in mind that this is the religion that sponsors free public schools wherein it is taught that Jews are servants of evil and that Christianity was created by Jews to deliberately lead people astray, and yet they're the ones with massive public outcry when the Pope reminds us that Islam is evil.

Do not forget that Mohammed made it a chief point of his expansion campaign to be as violent as possible in conversion, resorting to more peaceful methods only after a conquered population had been pacified through brutality and intimidaton. Modern Islam is no different; it is the aim of Al Qaeda to violently overthrow the House of Saud so that they may take over Saudi Arabia and begin mass executions of infidels, blasphemers, heretics, and ill-behaved Muslims. That is their stated goal, and a goal towards which Iran is evolving on its very own.

Militant Islam survives by riling up the underclasses and the convincing them to kill themselves on promises of wealth for their families, provided by money from private citizens of the Muslim right-wing, and of ridiculous lies like "the afterlife." Western Islam is only benign and disorganized because they do not have the numbers to start telling women that they are worth about half of one man.

Anyone who argues and says that Islam is a peaceful religion has probably never touched a Qu'Ran in their life. It is impossible for a Muslim to come away from the Qu'Ran without a message that requires them to kill anyone, anyone, who disobeys the word of Allah. If a Muslim's wife cheats on him and he doesn't kill her, then he has misread the Qu'Ran. If the United States builds military bases in Saudi Arabia and every Muslim does not start random acts of violence in the streets of New York, they have misread the Qu'Ran. If a woman shows her face in public and you do not beat her, flog her, or burn the exposed parts of her face with acid, you have misread the Qu'Ran. If you encounter a Jew and you do not kill him, you have misread the Qu'Ran. If somebody preaches Christianity in your country and you do not kill him, you have misread the Qu'Ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

AIM- ChrisRay6000

Because Islam is built upon violence and anger. Its chief survival point in the 21st century is the existence of controversy around which to swell up emotions in the underclass. Keep in mind that this is the religion that sponsors free public schools wherein it is taught that Jews are servants of evil and that Christianity was created by Jews to deliberately lead people astray, and yet they're the ones with massive public outcry when the Pope reminds us that Islam is evil.

Do not forget that Mohammed made it a chief point of his expansion campaign to be as violent as possible in conversion, resorting to more peaceful methods only after a conquered population had been pacified through brutality and intimidaton. Modern Islam is no different; it is the aim of Al Qaeda to violently overthrow the House of Saud so that they may take over Saudi Arabia and begin mass executions of infidels, blasphemers, heretics, and ill-behaved Muslims. That is their stated goal, and a goal towards which Iran is evolving on its very own.

Militant Islam survives by riling up the underclasses and the convincing them to kill themselves on promises of wealth for their families, provided by money from private citizens of the Muslim right-wing, and of ridiculous lies like "the afterlife." Western Islam is only benign and disorganized because they do not have the numbers to start telling women that they are worth about half of one man.

Anyone who argues and says that Islam is a peaceful religion has probably never touched a Qu'Ran in their life. It is impossible for a Muslim to come away from the Qu'Ran without a message that requires them to kill anyone, anyone, who disobeys the word of Allah. If a Muslim's wife cheats on him and he doesn't kill her, then he has misread the Qu'Ran. If the United States builds military bases in Saudi Arabia and every Muslim does not start random acts of violence in the streets of New York, they have misread the Qu'Ran. If a woman shows her face in public and you do not beat her, flog her, or burn the exposed parts of her face with acid, you have misread the Qu'Ran. If you encounter a Jew and you do not kill him, you have misread the Qu'Ran. If somebody preaches Christianity in your country and you do not kill him, you have misread the Qu'Ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

AIM- ChrisRay6000

I see someone has been gobbling down daniel pipes' propaganda.

"surely those who believe, the jews and the christians, and the sabians, who believe in the final day and the one god they will recieve their reward in paradise" repeated in the koran a lot, i believe it appears in the 4th sura first

Islam is going through its dark ages, muslims behave like christians from a few centuries ago.

Jews have no need to take to the streets. They have the ADL. Christians have no need to take to the streets. They have the US military.

That is a bunch of crap and you know it.

That's because Islam hasn't really "matured" as a religion, but Judaism and Chrisanity have. I've never heard about Jewish extremists, perhpas because they "matured" a LONG time ago and Christianity didn't even start "maturing" until about 300 years ago. :eek:

You've never heard about a Jewish extremist???

What about the Jew who broke the hand of another Jew, a violinist, with a hammer, for playing a piece by Richard Strauss at a concert in Israel?

In June 1980, Jewish terrorists tried to assassinate three Palestinian mayors.

Throughout the 1990s and into 2000-2005, Jewish armed civilians have randomely opened fire on Palestinian settlements, typically backed up by the Israeli army.

And I certainly hope you've heard of Christian terrorists.

Ah, this in not an accurate description as it's written in a hurry - I have some apple pie waiting - but I hope you catch my drift. Attack away ;)

I'll help you attack the apple pie, especially if you have some coffee to go with it or a big glass of ice cold milk. :p

That is a bunch of crap and you know it.

No it isn't and no I don't. It may be a simplification; gravlen said it better.

I see someone has been gobbling down daniel pipes' propaganda.

"surely those who believe, the jews and the christian, and the sabians, who believe in the final day and the one god they will recieve their reward in paradise" repeated in the koran a lot, i believe it appears in the 4th sura first

2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

2:39 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! 2:66 And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing.

2:96 And thou wilt find Jews greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

64:14 O ye who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies for you, therefor beware of them. And if ye efface and overlook and forgive, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

4:52 Those [Christians and Jews] are they whom Allah hath cursed, and he whom Allah hath cursed, thou (O Muhammad) wilt find for him no helper.

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward

4:104 Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. If ye are suffering, lo! they suffer even as ye suffer and ye hope from Allah that for which they cannot hope. Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. 9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, 9:35 On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard.

9:113 It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.

42:16 And those who argue concerning Allah after He hath been acknowledged, their argument hath no weight with their Lord, and wrath is upon them and theirs will be an awful doom.

64:5 Hath not the story reached you of those who disbelieved of old and so did taste the ill-effects of their conduct, and theirs will be a painful doom.

64:10 But those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are owners of the Fire; they will abide therein - a hapless journey's end!

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will

2:6-7 "As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them."

60:13 "Be not friendly with a folk with whom Allah is wroth, (a folk) who have despaired of the Hereafter."

66:9 "Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

58:22 "Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren."



Next time, try reading a Qu'Ran before you go acting like those who realize that Islam is as evil as Christianity and Judaism are victims of some form of propoganda other than that which comes from the rational mind.

25:63:

The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

28:55, And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant."

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): "Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."


5:82. " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."


Quran 4:94:

. . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

just wanted to add that.

It would be nice if the idiots rioting and burning churches would read the damn quran.

You've never heard about a Jewish extremist???

What about the Jew who broke the hand of another Jew, a violinist, with a hammer, for playing a piece by Richard Strauss at a concert in Israel?

In June 1980, Jewish terrorists tried to assassinate three Palestinian mayors.

Throughout the 1990s and into 2000-2005, Jewish armed civilians have randomely opened fire on Palestinian settlements, typically backed up by the Israeli army.

And I certainly hope you've heard of Christian terrorists.

We are talking about mass demonstration and reactions to real or preceived inslults here. If we want to look at what individuals or very small groups do, we could have thousands of incidents on all sides.

A Jew will sue
A Christian will preach
A Muslim will protest

That's because Islam hasn't really "matured" as a religion, but Judaism and Chrisanity have. I've never heard about Jewish extremists, perhpas because they "matured" a LONG time ago and Christianity didn't even start "maturing" until about 300 years ago. :eek:

Judaism and Christianity have not "matured" any more than has Islam. It's just all the same crap about one fabricated Jewish deity. If they really had matured, they would not exist anymore.
What you call maturing is actually deviation from the teachings, which is of course a good development. Civil society is the opposite of what the biblical god allegedly wants, but especially what is now called "the West" has in many respects overcome this and obtained its civil liberties for which it is envied so much.
And if you have never heard about Jewish extremists maybe you should turn on the news more often.
.

We are talking about mass demonstration and reactions to real or preceived inslults here. If we want to look at what individuals or very small groups do, we could have thousands of incidents on all sides.

Yes, we would. Which is why all the faiths of Abraham/Ibrahim need to be outlawed.

I think islam is engaging in a reformation as we speak, and what we are seeing here are the birth-pangs of enlightenment. When christianity reformed there were several wars between protestants and catholics. Now we are seeing a war between progressive islam and fundementalist islam.

The only "reform" movements gaining popularity amongst muslims are those which want to go back to 7th century. The modern salafi movement of the Bin Laden variety, the Hizbut Tahrir, the Tableeghi Jamaat are the movements which are gaining popularity and all these want muslims to become more islamic and promises everything would be alright if we all just go back to 7th century.

I wouldn't have a problem with that if they just don't insist on dragging me along with them.

Next time, try reading a Qu'Ran before you go acting like those who realize that Islam is as evil as Christianity and Judaism are victims of some form of propoganda other than that which comes from the rational mind.

You've never read the quran you've read the interpretations of people who have claimed to read the quran. All or most of those quotes were taken out of context, unbelievers=pagan meccans who were at the time trying to destroy islam, christians jews and zorastrians are "people of the book" classical arabic is unbelievable hard to translate into english, thats why there are people called ayatollahs who devote their entire life to studying it.

yes i believe islam is just as bad as christianity or judaism, but i believe all 3are good but misunderstood and twisted for the benefit of corrupt rulers.

SNIP

SNIP

This is NOT a debate on the Koran. It is a question about the reaction of people to an insult, either real of perceived, to their religion. Please try to stay OT.

You've never heard about a Jewish extremist???

What about the Jew who broke the hand of another Jew, a violinist, with a hammer, for playing a piece by Richard Strauss at a concert in Israel?

In June 1980, Jewish terrorists tried to assassinate three Palestinian mayors.

Throughout the 1990s and into 2000-2005, Jewish armed civilians have randomely opened fire on Palestinian settlements, typically backed up by the Israeli army.

And I certainly hope you've heard of Christian terrorists.

The last one I've heard of... but wasn't thinking about at the time. Grr. And I have heard of Christian terrorists... the people who bomb abortion clinics are terroists. But I'm talking extremist, not necessarily terrorist. So no, I've never heard about Jewish extremists but I have heard of Christians and Muslims being extremists (not necessarily terrorists).

Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?

We have had two incidents recently where the Muslims felt their religion was being insulted, the cartoons and the Pope’s speech. In both cases, the Muslims took to the streets in protest, firebombed churches and embassies, and threatened to kill people.

Then we have Muslim leaders like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calling for the elimination of the Jews and the hosting of a display of anti-Christian cartoons. Yet, we do not see Jews or Christians taking to the streets in protest, burning flags, firebombing Mosques and calling for the faithful to kill Ahmadinejad.

Why is there such a different reaction to these real or perceived insults?They're percieved. It's got more to do with local culture and politics than being part of a given religion. The muslim council in Germany welcomed the Pope's clarification (no, it wasn't an apology. Read it again).

The only "reform" movements gaining popularity amongst muslims are those which want to go back to 7th century. The modern salafi movement of the Bin Laden variety, the Hizbut Tahrir, the Tableeghi Jamaat are the movements which are gaining popularity and all these want muslims to become more islamic and promises everything would be alright if we all just go back to 7th century.

I wouldn't have a problem with that if they just don't insist on dragging me along with them.

Argh, i know. I wish things would go as the egyptian islamic revival did, peaceful, secluded, and mild.

25:63:

The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

28:55, And when they hear vain talk, they turn away from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we do not seek out the ignorant."

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): "Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."


5:82. " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."


Quran 4:94:

. . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

just wanted to add that.

It would be nice if the idiots rioting and burning churches would read the damn quran.



Funny how many more passages about violence I was able to remember off the top of my head and then look up than you were able to about peace.

The presence of contradiction in the Qu'Ran says that all Muslims will burn in hell, for does not Allah write that there is a special doom prepared for hypocrites?

And you and I are both going to hell now, for does not Allah write that those who debate the word of Allah are temptations away from good, for whom a special doom is prepared?

You are defended Islam on the existence of its few exceptions. The violence I described to you exist et al in the Qu'Ran. That's like saying "Well, Naziism wasn't so bad because they gave so many jobs to Germany," or that "Genghis Khan was actually pretty great because, one time, he only killed 50% of the population and cut off the ears of the rest, rather than killing all of them!"

Islam is evil. If you believe it is peaceful, then you do not follow current events. When GW Bush addressed Islam following 9/11 and said that terrorists had "perverted the wisdom of Allah, whose teachings are peaceful," he was, as usual, completely full of shit. Islam is the greatest threat the civilized world faces in the 21st century and we should NOT be tolerant of Hizballah, or Mahmoud Ahmenijad. We should look at the one Muslim living in America who says, "well, why can't we all just be moderate Muslims?" and adore him, saying, "that's the TRUE voice of Islam!" because the true voice of Islam is across the ocean supplying guns and bomb-packs to people who pray for YOU to be killed very, very soon.

Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?

We have had two incidents recently where the Muslims felt their religion was being insulted, the cartoons and the Pope’s speech. In both cases, the Muslims took to the streets in protest, firebombed churches and embassies, and threatened to kill people.

Then we have Muslim leaders like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calling for the elimination of the Jews and the hosting of a display of anti-Christian cartoons. Yet, we do not see Jews or Christians taking to the streets in protest, burning flags, firebombing Mosques and calling for the faithful to kill Ahmadinejad.

Why is there such a different reaction to these real or perceived insults?


Because Islamic countries and Islamic culture in general are primitive, i.e: There is not ONE (1) single majority muslim country with good human rights records, good treatment of women, gays, etc, ... in general. They are mostly poor and backwards (i.e: less tech, more corruption, etc...).

The Jews had the Diaspora, which totally annihilated their ability to be extremists, Christianity had the reformation, which radically shifted everyone's perspective, and forced people to accept differences, but Islam has not had such similar things, which is a great tragedy. Islam needs a reformation.
Um... No... There are both jewish and christian extremist. Just off the top of my head - remember that it was a jew that assasinated Y. Rabin.
I suspect it has to do with perception of what is and is not a threat.

Jews are somewhat used to it at this point. Add to it a tradition of self-depricating humor, and you have a fairly passive group. Muslims respond violently to anything they take as a threat, but Christians do too. Mind you, I'm not trying to imply the reaction is the same, but they do react. Christians burned the Beatles albums just because Lennon said they are bigger than Jesus. Some frequently spout out about how they are being persecuted in America and the west.

All three groups react to percieved threats. I suspect that it comes down to how devoted you are to your religion
I agree in part with this, but I still claim that religion is only used as a common denominator. It's all about politics, and many arabs feel that there is a war waged upon them by the west. And they feel that the threat of western dominance / victory in this war is strong and all too real. Many (if most) westeners do not see the conflict as something that can be lost. Both cultural, military and economic superiority has made sure of that.

And for the westeners: Why take to the streets and yell when you can hurt them economically by not buying their products or hurt them militarily by bombing them? No danger to that westener, no problem - no threat to his/her way of life.
Anyone who argues and says that Islam is a peaceful religion has probably never touched a Qu'Ran in their life. It is impossible for a Muslim to come away from the Qu'Ran without a message that requires them to kill anyone, anyone, who disobeys the word of Allah. If a Muslim's wife cheats on him and he doesn't kill her, then he has misread the Qu'Ran. If the United States builds military bases in Saudi Arabia and every Muslim does not start random acts of violence in the streets of New York, they have misread the Qu'Ran. If a woman shows her face in public and you do not beat her, flog her, or burn the exposed parts of her face with acid, you have misread the Qu'Ran. If you encounter a Jew and you do not kill him, you have misread the Qu'Ran. If somebody preaches Christianity in your country and you do not kill him, you have misread the Qu'Ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

AIM- ChrisRay6000
I guess there are a couple of million muslims that have never read the Qu'ran then :)
I'll help you attack the apple pie, especially if you have some coffee to go with it or a big glass of ice cold milk. :p
I've Got Milk! :D And whipped cream... :eek:
No it isn't and no I don't. It may be a simplification; gravlen said it better.I did? Wow! :fluffle:

Funny how many more passages about violence I was able to remember off the top of my head and then look up than you were able to about peace.

The presence of contradiction in the Qu'Ran says that all Muslims will burn in hell, for does not Allah write that there is a special doom prepared for hypocrites?

And you and I are both going to hell now, for does not Allah write that those who debate the word of Allah are temptations away from good, for whom a special doom is prepared?

You are defended Islam on the existence of its few exceptions. The violence I described to you exist et al in the Qu'Ran. That's like saying "Well, Naziism wasn't so bad because they gave so many jobs to Germany," or that "Genghis Khan was actually pretty great because, one time, he only killed 50% of the population and cut off the ears of the rest, rather than killing all of them!"

Islam is evil. If you believe it is peaceful, then you do not follow current events. When GW Bush addressed Islam following 9/11 and said that terrorists had "perverted the wisdom of Allah, whose teachings are peaceful," he was, as usual, completely full of shit. Islam is the greatest threat the civilized world faces in the 21st century and we should NOT be tolerant of Hizballah, or Mahmoud Ahmenijad. We should look at the one Muslim living in America who says, "well, why can't we all just be moderate Muslims?" and adore him, saying, "that's the TRUE voice of Islam!" because the true voice of Islam is across the ocean supplying guns and bomb-packs to people who pray for YOU to be killed very, very soon.

nice way to side-step my whole damn argument and by the way that "one muslim" is more like 3 million, if the majority, say 51% of muslims were terrorists that would be around 650 million terrorists, bigger than the armies of america, china, russia, GB, and india combined, we would all be dead right now, oh and nice appeal to fear there at the end.

They're percieved. It's got more to do with local culture and politics than being part of a given religion. The muslim council in Germany welcomed the Pope's clarification (no, it wasn't an apology. Read it again).

I disagree about it being "local culture" and “politics” and not a part of the "religion." If it were local, culture and politics the protests would have been confined to that culture. Indeed the protests over the cartoons were not confined to one culture, they were worldwide. The current protests have included all of the Middle East, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. and are not confined to one culture or political philosophy.

I guess there are a couple of million muslims that have never read the Qu'ran then

Well, just as the majority of Jews and Chritians have never read their Bibles.

I disagree about it being "local culture" and “politics” and not a part of the "religion." If it were local, culture and politics the protests would have been confined to that culture. Indeed the protests over the cartoons were not confined to one culture, they were worldwide. The current protests have included all of the Middle East, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. and are not confined to one culture or political philosophy.

Turkey is in mid east as well.

Well, just as the majority of Jews and Chritians have never read their Bibles.

exactly, an imam in yemen talked to some terrorists in jail about islam and the qur'an, he convinced them that their actions are against the koran. 360 of the men he talked to have served their time and are out, peaceful and living normal lives

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0204/p01s04-wome.htm

nice way to side-step my whole damn argument and by the way that "one muslim" is more like 3 million, if the majority, say 51% of muslims were terrorists that would be around 650 million terrorists, bigger than the armies of america, china, russia, GB, and india combined, we would all be dead right now, oh and nice appeal to fear there at the end.

That the huge majority of Muslims, just like Christians and Jews, are too cowardly to act on the mandates of their various myths is not a failing on my part. Don't try to act like it is.

Turkey is in mid east as well.

You are correct and I stand corrected.

They're percieved. It's got more to do with local culture and politics than being part of a given religion. The muslim council in Germany welcomed the Pope's clarification (no, it wasn't an apology. Read it again).
This is what I believe too :)
I disagree about it being "local culture" and “politics” and not a part of the "religion." If it were local, culture and politics the protests would have been confined to that culture. Indeed the protests over the cartoons were not confined to one culture, they were worldwide. The current protests have included all of the Middle East, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. and are not confined to one culture or political philosophy.
The protests could be worldwide because it's seen as an attack on Islam, but the reactions will be (And indeed has been) wastly different in Africa, Asia, Europe, America and the middle east.

Well, just as the majority of Jews and Chritians have never read their Bibles.
Indeed. At least, thank the powers they're not taking it literally :)

Turkey is in mid east as well.
Depends on the definition you use...

That the huge majority of Muslims, just like Christians and Jews, are too cowardly to act on the mandates of their various myths is not a failing on my part. Don't try to act like it is.

O RLY?

http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/bin_laden.html
http://www.usembassyjakarta.org/lawmaker.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml
http://www.islamfortoday.com/qaradawi02.htm
http://www.int-review.org/terr42a.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2004/n07272004_2004072704.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan1999/n01261999_9901261.html

the difference in reaction springs from the perceived gain by religious leaders to whichever reaction they prefer

in christianity and judaism it is more powerful to convince followers to contain their anger and to present a calm front. in islam it is more powerful to demonstrate your leadership by being able to call massive numbers of people into the streets to protest.

when it is perceived as a show of power, christians take to the streets (as in on the anniversary of roe v wade). most of the time its not so they stay home.

Depends on the definition you use...

Depends on the definition of definition you use. :rolleyes:

Indeed. At least, thank the powers they're not taking it literally :)


Depends on the definition you use...

Geographically they are in the Middle East. Economically and politically, they are more aligned with Europe.

That the huge majority of Muslims, just like Christians and Jews, are too cowardly to act on the mandates of their various myths is not a failing on my part. Don't try to act like it is.
I would also like to inform you that the US department of defense disagrees with you

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan1999/n01261999_9901261.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2004/n07272004_2004072704.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2001/n10042001_200110043.html

plus

in most moslem countries there is no freedom of the press so the people must take to the streets to voice their opinion. in the US, europe and israel, there is relative freedom of the press so people are used to dashing off a letter to the editor in order to express their anger.

Geographically they are in the Middle East. Economically and politically, they are more aligned with Europe.

Politically, Japan is more aligned with USA than Asia. I wonder if Gravlen considers Japan American...

Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?
The Muslims just happen to live in more backwards societies. It's nothing really to do with the religion itself, it's the cultures.

Novice;11693063']The people who are opressed by the majority, in this case, Muslims, are free to insult and strike back at others because it seems wrong to fight back at them.
Muslims are not oppressed by the majority!

Christians have no need to take to the streets. They have the US military.
WTF? I'm Christian and the US military doesn't do anything in my name. All I've ever done is protest against it. See the second link in my signature.

Kind of ironic, considering it's the Evangelical Protestants that are the intolerant Christians (well, them and Pope Benedict XVI).
That's very US-centric of you. In your country the Protestants are the most intolerant Christian group, that's because they're the majority.

In other countries, for example southern Italy, you would find intolerant Catholics. Same with Shias in Iran, Sunnis in Arabia. And Jews in Israel, even.

Because it's a percieved clash of civilications, it's a east-vs-west thing, it's because many muslims (many arabs) feel that they haven't got any other means of defense against a percieved attack, a percieved war, against their religion. In adition, some are using the incidents as excuses for powerplays and to strengthen their positions in different cases. Those who agitate the strongest for the destruction of an external enemy is those who gets the most support.

The jews and christians on the other hand, are the top dogs. A cartoon won't outrage the majority, nor be seen as a part in a war to eradicate the religion. The threats are ignored as the "west" has the military might to protect themselves, and it isn't really plausible that christianity or judaism will be wiped out. Also, there are two important aspects:
Really excellent post man. But why do you think that Middle-Easterners think that the west is waging war against Islam, or that the eradication of Islam is plausible?

Geographically they are in the Middle East. Economically and politically, they are more aligned with Europe.
Depends on the definition of definition you use. :rolleyes:

See? That's why there was a frickin' huge thread about this too ;)

See? That's why there was a frickin' huge thread about this too ;)

There was a thread about clouds as well.

Politically, Japan is more aligned with USA than Asia. I wonder if Gravlen considers Japan American...

Wonder away, little butterfly, wonder away ;)
There was a thread about clouds as well.

Yup - but do you remember the huge consensus on Turkey after 2000 posts? No? There wasn't any!
That's why I say it depends on your definition.

I think islam is engaging in a reformation as we speak, and what we are seeing here are the birth-pangs of enlightenment. When christianity reformed there were several wars between protestants and catholics. Now we are seeing a war between progressive islam and fundementalist islam.
Most of the in-fighting is between Sunnis and Shias, and that is depressing because their split was 1200 years ago.

Next time, try reading a Qu'Ran before you go acting like those who realize that Islam is as evil as Christianity and Judaism are victims of some form of propoganda other than that which comes from the rational mind.
Did it occur to you that the Koran has a lot of contradictions, like the Bible? Thus both you and Pyotr are able to quote passages to back up opposite points.


What you call maturing is actually deviation from the teachings, which is of course a good development. Civil society is the opposite of what the biblical god allegedly wants
.
Not at all.

Wonder away, little butterfly, wonder away ;)


Yup - but do you remember the huge consensus on Turkey after 2000 posts? No? There wasn't any!
That's why I say it depends on your definition.

Consenssus on NSG? MUHAHAHA

You've never heard about a Jewish extremist???

What about the Jew who broke the hand of another Jew, a violinist, with a hammer, for playing a piece by Richard Strauss at a concert in Israel?

In June 1980, Jewish terrorists tried to assassinate three Palestinian mayors.

Throughout the 1990s and into 2000-2005, Jewish armed civilians have randomely opened fire on Palestinian settlements, typically backed up by the Israeli army.

And I certainly hope you've heard of Christian terrorists.

These days Judaism has very, very little to do with Israel, Zionism or their ongoing conflict with Palestine. You will find that the Israelis are motivated by nationalism, personal vendetta, and sense of duty FAR more then any religious beliefs they may or may not hold. It's more along the lines of "These people are enemies of my country, they have killed my people and they would gladly kill me" instead of "These people are enemies of my God, they insult him and they must be punished."

I’ve yet to see a Rabbi teaching young Jews to murder unbelievers in the name of God. However military service IS mandatory in Israel, which is hardly a theocracy. You can’t accurately peg everything the Jews do as being religiously motivated.

However, a lot of Muslims actually DO see the Jews as enemies of their God who are worthy of punishment AND they are told this by religious figures in a context that transcends any national or governmental context.

The Muslims just happen to live in more backwards societies. It's nothing really to do with the religion itself, it's the cultures.

There is a big difference between the cultures of Saudi Arabia. Pakistan, Gaza, Sudan, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Some of those countries are more backward than others, such as Sudan, while others, such as Malaysia, are more advanced.

Politically, all of these societies are vastly different and range from the theocratic monarchy of Saudi Arabia to the secular democracy of Turkey. They one thing they all have in common is the religion of a majority of the people.

So, it would seem to me that it is the religion and not culture or politics that is the key to their reaction the insults.

Most of the in-fighting is between Sunnis and Shias, and that is depressing because their split was 1200 years ago.

true, islam would benefit hugely if historical grudges were erased.

Did it occur to you that the Koran has a lot of contradictions, like the Bible? Thus both you and Pyotr are able to quote passages to back up opposite points.


exactly, its an elastic document, there are as many interpretations of the qur'an as there are muslims. That is actually part of the problem, no central authority to say that the terrorists have got it wrong.

the reason is that islam is invoked as a justification to the violence that would occur anyways... and because of this it is actually noticed.
"These gunmen always look for white people to kill, and now the Pope gave them the reason to do their worst," said Mohamud Durguf Derow, who was at the scene when the nun was killed.
from the CBC on the nun that was killed in Somalia. I don't think that Islam is a religion that preaches evil, it just allows a framework for it, the same as christianity has a very good framework for anti-semitism, and judaism has a very good framework for excluding everyone else.

Muslims are in the news for making funerals while protesting, but Christians are in the news for protesting at funerals.

There is a big difference between the cultures of Saudi Arabia. Pakistan, Gaza, Sudan, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Some of those countries are more backward than others, such as Sudan, while others, such as Malaysia, are more advanced.

Politically, all of these societies are vastly different and range from the theocratic monarchy of Saudi Arabia to the secular democracy of Turkey. They one thing they all have in common is the religion of a majority of the people.

So, it would seem to me that it is the religion and not culture or politics that is the key to their reaction the insults.

The cultural difference between Malaysia, Pakistan and Turkey is less than cultural difference between Turkey and Netherlands or Pakistan and France or Malaysia and Germany. So I think their culture has also something to do with the reactions. And religion can be considered part of culture. (i.e: architecture of mosques, predominance of arabic etc...in this case.)

Did it occur to you that the Koran has a lot of contradictions, like the Bible? Thus both you and Pyotr are able to quote passages to back up opposite points.

According to the Islam, the Koran does not and cannot have contradictions. They believe the book was literally written by God. God is incapable of making a mistake and a contradiction in the Koran would mean that God made a mistake and then corrected himself. As the Koran was written by God it is perfect, does not contain any mistakes, or contradictions.

The Christians believe the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. As it was written by humans, contradictions can happen.

According to the Islam, the Koran does not and cannot have contradictions. They believe the book was literally written by God. God is incapable of making a mistake and a contradiction in the Koran would mean that God made a mistake and then corrected himself. As the Koran was written by God it is perfect, does not contain any mistakes, or contradictions.

The Christians believe the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. As it was written by humans, contradictions can happen.

maybe it was written by iGod (ref yesterday's thread). www.titane.ca/concordia/dfar251/igod/main.html

Really excellent post man. But why do you think that Middle-Easterners think that the west is waging war against Islam, or that the eradication of Islam is plausible?

Thanks :)

Lots of reasons. The aftermath of sept. 11, Bush's different statements ("With us or against us", the "crusade"-blunder), the US unwavering support of Israel, the invasion of Afghanistan to some degree and Iraq to a large degree, the military presense in the middle east, the strong US support of more or less authoritarian regiemes are all recent actions that could be interpreted as hostile towards the arab world. In adition there is some historical animosity (colonisation) and the feeling of being "used". Also the feeling of being pushed around by the world powers can contribute - the feeling of helplessness.

All these reasons are there, but they are often blown out of proportion by people who stand to gain (power or money) by playing the "external enemies" card to further their own agendas. They use Islam as a tool, and the people in the middle east with little money or hopes are often devout because they have little else to look forward to then a good afterlife - and many are therefor easily persuaded.

But the question is, in my mind, huge and complex, and this is just a rough highlight of the main points. The important thing to remember is that it's not a black-and-white issue, there are multiple factors at work here. Religion is but one of them :)

Consenssus on NSG? MUHAHAHA

On this issue, there isn't one out in the real world either sunshine :)

The cultural difference between Malaysia, Pakistan and Turkey is less than cultural difference between Turkey and Netherlands or Pakistan and France or Malaysia and Germany. So I think their culture has also something to do with the reactions. And religion can be considered part of culture. (i.e: architecture of mosques, predominance of arabic etc...in this case.)

Have you ever been to Malaysia or Turkey? I've been to both and their cultures are as different from each other as Malaysia is from Germany.

Kind of ironic, considering it's the Evangelical Protestants that are the intolerant Christians (well, them and Pope Benedict XVI).

A very small minority of the near two billion Christians who currently inhabit our little planet. There will always be fools and extremists, to characterize every member of a group as such is a mistake.

Have you ever been to Malaysia or Turkey? I've been to both and their cultures are as different from each other as Malaysia is from Germany.

Thank you! That was the question I wanted to ask as well :)

These days Judaism has very, very little to do with Israel, Zionism or their ongoing conflict with Palestine. You will find that the Israelis are motivated by nationalism, personal vendetta, and sense of duty FAR more then any religious beliefs they may or may not hold. It's more along the lines of "These people are enemies of my country, they have killed my people and they would gladly kill me" instead of "These people are enemies of my God, they insult him and they must be punished."

I’ve yet to see a Rabbi teaching young Jews to murder unbelievers in the name of God. However military service IS mandatory in Israel, which is hardly a theocracy. You can’t accurately peg everything the Jews do as being religiously motivated.

However, a lot of Muslims actually DO see the Jews as enemies of their God who are worthy of punishment AND they are told this by religious figures in a context that transcends any national or governmental context.



Sorry, I somehow thought that terrorists who are Jewish would qualify as 'Jewish terrorists.' Oops! I forgot, only Muslims are terrorists. :)

But you're right, it completely matters that their motivations are different and there are no Jewish terrorists because they do it in the name of Israel, which is in no way, shape, or form, affiliated with Judaism or the Semitic peoples.

Sorry, I somehow thought that terrorists who are Jewish would qualify as 'Jewish terrorists.' Oops! I forgot, only Muslims are terrorists. :)


Aum shinrikyo, anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

Aum shinrikyo, anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

Aum shinrikyo was a bizarre cobbled together religion that was primarily based on Buddhism, but integrated bits and pieces of Judaism, Christianity, Islam Hinduism and various forms of animism. To call it a Jewish terrorist group is a mistake. If you wanted to mention a terrorist group composed of Jews, reference some of the activities of Haganah, not Aum Shinrikyo.

Aum shinrikyo was a bizarre cobbled together religion that was primarily based on Buddhism, but integrated bits and pieces of Judaism, Christianity, Islam Hinduism and various forms of animism. To call it a Jewish terrorist group is a mistake. If you wanted to mention a terrorist group composed of Jews, reference some of the activities of Haganah, not Aum Shinrikyo.

I wasn't referring to it as a jewish terrorist group, but as a non-muslim terrorist group. The guy i was quoting stated that only muslims can be terrorists, so i provided a counter-proof.

Sorry, I somehow thought that terrorists who are Jewish would qualify as 'Jewish terrorists.' Oops! I forgot, only Muslims are terrorists. :)

But you're right, it completely matters that their motivations are different and there are no Jewish terrorists because they do it in the name of Israel, which is in no way, shape, or form, affiliated with Judaism or the Semitic peoples.

Islam is a religion. People who commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam are Muslim Terrorists.

Judaism is a religion. People who commit terrorist acts in the name of Judaism are Jewish Terrorists.

Christianity is a religion. People who commit terrorist acts in the name of Judaism are Christian Terrorist.

Easy enough to follow, right?

The problem here arises when you associate someone's actions with their faith regardless of whether or not their faith actually had anything to do with their actions.

Coming from a specific background or being attached to a specific label does not mean those factors amount to anything unless specifically stated to be the case. Just being a believer of Judaism doesn't make it the overriding factor in anything. If you personally qualify that belief as the factor (e.g. Allah is great! *slit*) behind your actions then that warrants consideration. However, simply being Jewish or Mulslim isn't enough to be considered in its own right (e.g. You killed my family you bastard! *gunshot*). I specifically mentioned nationalism as being one such other factor. The Israeli soldiers large do not kill people because they are enemies of their God, but because they are enemies of their country.

Calling someone a Jewish (specifically stating that the person is a follower of Judaism) Terrorist insinuates that religion is above all else the qualifying factor for that person being a Terrorist. That is simply not the case with Israel. IT IS the case with those that specifically state that their goals and motives are religious in nature. Many Terrorist groups do not have a single national identity associated with them but DO use religion is a unifying factor. THAT is what makes the difference.

I wasn't referring to it as a jewish terrorist group, but as a non-muslim terrorist group. The guy i was quoting stated that only muslims can be terrorists, so i provided a counter-proof.

Psst! I think he may have been sarcastic. I won't say for sure though...

Psst! I think he may have been sarcastic. I won't say for sure though...

I dont think he was.....

*waits patiently for reply*

I dont think he was.....

*waits patiently for reply*

*Offers cookie while waiting*

Sorry, I somehow thought that terrorists who are Jewish would qualify as 'Jewish terrorists.' Oops! I forgot, only Muslims are terrorists. :)
Do you know that the more you viciously and falsely attack people for Islamophobia, the more likely that they will resentfully become bigoted against Muslims? Are you proud that you're efficiently spreading Islamophobia?

No, not all Jews who are terrorists are Jewish terrorists. Only those who are doing it in the name of Judaism. Many communist terrorist groups in early 20th century Europe had a significant proportion of Jews in them (causing anti-communists to exploit anti-Semitism in their propaganda). You're thinking of Zionist terrorists. Zionism is closer to nationalism than religion.

Similarly, not every Muslim who's a terrorist is an Islamic terrorist. There are numerous (mostly separatist) groups that are predominantly Muslim but they're not Islamic terrorist groups, because they're not fighting for Islam, but a more earthly goal.

But you're right, it completely matters that their motivations are different and there are no Jewish terrorists because they do it in the name of Israel, which is in no way, shape, or form, affiliated with Judaism or the Semitic peoples.
Most Jews aren't Israelis. Many Jews don't believe in Zionism, and many non-Jews do. Israel (a secular state btw) really is quite separable from Judaism.

According to the Islam, the Koran does not and cannot have contradictions. They believe the book was literally written by God.
I'm aware that there's less tolerance for alternative interpretions within Islam, but the Koran clearly does contradict itself.

My, my how far have we wandered from the original question which is yet to be answered.

"Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?"

My, my how far have we wandered from the original question which is yet to be answered.

"Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?"Can you answer the question: Why do pigs go "moo"?

My, my how far have we wandered from the original question which is yet to be answered.

"Can anyone here explain why there is such a difference in reactions by Muslims, Christians, and Jews to insults or perceived insults against their religion?"

I thought I tried that... Aaaaw man! :(
*Sulks and returns to apple pie*

Islam = Teenager Religion

X-Treme Islamists, Yo!: "The world is so unfair! I hate everyone."

Christianity = Adult Religion

High-Ranking Christians: "Jesus. I'm trying to get some work done. Shut the hell up already."

Judaism = Baby Boomer Religion

Senior Jews: "Tell these darn kids to stop skateboarding on my lawn!"

I imagine Islam will progress and 'grow up' eventually. Remember when Christianity was a teenager? They were burning women for talking to themselves and hanging intellectuals for studying *gasp* science.

I thought I tried that... Aaaaw man! :(
*Sulks and returns to apple pie*

You did, give your input, thank you. However, in the last few pages people wandered way off topic.

By the way, did you save me some of that pie?

You've never heard about a Jewish extremist???

What about the Jew who broke the hand of another Jew, a violinist, with a hammer, for playing a piece by Richard Strauss at a concert in Israel?

In June 1980, Jewish terrorists tried to assassinate three Palestinian mayors.

Throughout the 1990s and into 2000-2005, Jewish armed civilians have randomely opened fire on Palestinian settlements, typically backed up by the Israeli army.

And I certainly hope you've heard of Christian terrorists.

And the Jew who assassinated Sharon was obviously not a an extremist either....

You did, give your input, thank you. However, in the last few pages people wandered way off topic.

By the way, did you save me some of that pie?
Ah, I see what you meant now. :)

And yes, I did actually. It's in the kitchen so you're welcome to stop by and get a slice. I've got about half the pie left :p
And the Jew who assassinated Rabin was obviously not a an extremist either....
I think I fixed it for you?

Thanks! Brain melted! LOL

Have you ever been to Malaysia or Turkey? I've been to both and their cultures are as different from each other as Malaysia is from Germany.

Dont most women in both countries cover their heads?

Dont most women in both countries cover their heads?Haha. Turkey has laws prohibitting it if all the people I know that have been there are to be believed.

Yes, we would. Which is why all the faiths of Abraham/Ibrahim need to be outlawed.

Yes because outlawing people's beloved beliefs will solve everything. While we are at it why don't we out law the following:

Liberalism
Environmentalism
Atheism
Democracy
Science
Etc..


All of those have a crazy # incidents which involve killings, poverty, rebellion etc. So why don't outlaw all of those?

Dont most women in both countries cover their heads?

Turkey is secular.

The Jews had the Diaspora, which totally annihilated their ability to be extremists, Christianity had the reformation, which radically shifted everyone's perspective, and forced people to accept differences, but Islam has not had such similar things, which is a great tragedy. Islam needs a reformation.

That's because most of the Islamic majority nations are all dictatorships, if someone tries to pull a Martian Luther and try to make a protestant version of Islam, they wouldn't exile him from the faith, they'd just kill him, as well as his family his followers and everyone who lived near him.

That's because the Islamic majority nations are all dictatorships, if someone tries to pull a Martian Luther and try to make a protestant version of Islam, they wouldn't exile him from the faith, they'd just kill him, as well as his family his followers and everyone who lived near him.

not all of them, Egypt isn't, nor is Indonesia. Also india has a lot of muslims and its a democracy, a reform islam could form there...

Haha. Turkey has laws prohibitting it if all the people I know that have been there are to be believed.

Haha...That was a very idiotic and ignorant response. Usual Laerod...Turkish PM and his wife:

http://www.habervitrini.com/haber_resim/tayyip_emine_erdogan5.jpg

Haha...That was a very idiotic and ignorant response. Usual Laerod...Turkish PM and his wife:

http://www.habervitrini.com/haber_resim/tayyip_emine_erdogan5.jpg

Oops, too bad, he's right:
Turkey, as a secular country, prohibits by law, the wearing of religious headcover and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion)

Oops, too bad, he's right:
Turkey, as a secular country, prohibits by law, the wearing of religious headcover and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Religion)

That doesnt stop most women wearing those scarves outside those places, does it? Including the wife of very PM....

Haha...That was a very idiotic and ignorant response. Usual Laerod...Turkish PM and his wife:

http://www.habervitrini.com/haber_resim/tayyip_emine_erdogan5.jpg
I see your one picture and raise you an article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/333641.stm).

And I'm right. As usual....


Reuters

ANKARA, 15 June 2006 — A majority of Turks say a ban on women wearing the Muslim head scarf in public offices and universities should be lifted and just two fifths favor a military government, according to a poll published yesterday. The survey, conducted by scholars from two Istanbul universities and published in the liberal Radikal daily, shows Turkey, a Muslim but secular country that hopes to join the European Union, to be conservative on social and moral issues.


http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=5269

And I'm right. As usual....



http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=5269

Not at all. So, stopping/reducing immigration (I'm not talking about asylum here) is not against any minority rights. However, when "elites" ignore the majority of the population (as is the case in Holland), it's not democracy, it's dictatorship...

Not at all. So, stopping/reducing immigration (I'm not talking about asylum here) is not against any minority rights. However, when "elites" ignore the majority of the population (as is the case in Holland), it's not democracy, it's dictatorship...

more like aristocracy, or oligarchy.

more like aristocracy, or oligarchy.

Yes, he's quoting me...

Yes, he's quoting me...

You are saying that because you lack reading comprehension. But difference between all europeans as foreign than Ireland vs Germany.
People's opinion?

As for the OP, to me it appears that the different reactions come from many causes. Poverty is one reason. Many 'Muslim' countries in the middle east are developing countries. Another is that the cultures of the middle east are descended from warrior tribes living in a very harsh environment. So harsh that things like Leviticus make sense. There are probably many other factors that others who are smarter than I can explain.

They may even have done so in this thread.:)

This is one of those questions that defies easy answers. I am intrigued by the parallels (or contrasts) between the Latin American struggles for sovereignty and the Middle Eastern ones.