NationStates Jolt Archive

Has anyone noticed that despite the pope saying this:

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

there have been no embassy burnings, and no massive riots? Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?

Actually, some of the more moderate muslims are accepting the Pope's quasi-apology.

Actually, some of the more moderate muslims are accepting the Pope's quasi-apology.

My question is, Why aren't they as pissed off as they were with the Mo. cartoons?

:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?

It's easy; they realized he's accusing Him of the same things his church and the guys who came before him did; they then savor the irony and laugh at how deliciously he outed himself as the moron he is. A source for delight rather than for anger.


things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

My question is, Why aren't they as pissed off as they were with the Mo. cartoons?

Because one was grossly offensive and the other was a quotation from a 12th century Byzantian Emperor.

After the past several centuries, Muslims have become used to taking crap from the Catholic God's Earthly representative. After the Crusades, the Inquisition, and never being invited to the Pope's house parties, a slip of the lip is nothing.

Because one was grossly offensive and the other was a quotation from a 12th century Byzantian Emperor.


isn't he agreeing with the byzantine emperor though???

isn't he agreeing with the byzantine emperor though???

Not really. Since when has quoting someone meant you are in agreement with them?

He was supposedly trying to highlight the link between violence and religion. He could have (and should have in my opinion) used many other examples closer to home.

isn't he agreeing with the byzantine emperor though???Obviously not so much as to get the head of the Turkish Religion Agency to publicly state that after rereading the statement and hearing the Pope's quasi-apology he will retract his complaints.

Another reason could be that it worked once, and now it will take a tad more to get embassies burning, like getting American ships sunk during WWI worked but didn't in WWII.

Not really. Since when has quoting someone meant you are in agreement with them?

it doesn't but I thought that the pope explicitly said he agreed with it...

Not really. Since when has quoting someone meant you are in agreement with them?

He was supposedly trying to highlight the link between violence and religion. He could have (and should have in my opinion) used many other examples closer to home.

What? Did he say that he didn't agree with it? If he didn't then obviously he was in total agreement.

What? Did he say that he didn't agree with it? If he didn't then obviously he was in total agreement.

He simply used it as a means to undertake - in an academic context, and as is evident from a complete and attentive reading of the text - certain reflections on the theme of the relationship between religion and violence in general, and to conclude with a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5352188.stm

He was actually trying to highlight the link between violence and the use of religion as a motivational factor as being false for the religion in question.... I think. *shrug*

He apologised. End of story.

Has anyone noticed that despite the pope saying this:



there have been no embassy burnings, and no massive riots? Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?

It certainly does seem more mild. Though I did read some churches were attacked, I'll have to check on that source.

Everybody knows the Pope is a joke. Even Jyllands-Posten has more weight than that wanker. And rightly so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5352188.stm

He was actually trying to highlight the link between violence and the use of religion as a motivational factor as being false for the religion in question.... I think. *shrug*

He apologised. End of story.

Translation: Pope was talking about how Jihad makes Islam look bad.
He should have quoted on how the Crusades made the Christians look bad also.

Translation: Pope was talking about how Jihad makes Islam look bad.
He should have quoted on how the Crusades made the Christians look bad also.

oooooooookk now I get it, thanks....really confused on that one...

Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?

Wait for some time. I still have faith that this will become a competition to prove who is more islamic and we will get to see McD/KFC burnings and the odd embassy torchings.

Wait for some time. I still have faith that this will become a competition to prove who is more islamic and we will get to see McD/KFC burnings and the odd embassy torchings.

I hope not, someone needs to create a group of moderate Imams/muftis who will calm people down when ever this stuff happens. Less property damage and a more postive view of islam by the rest of the world, a Win-win situation

Has anyone noticed that despite the pope saying this:



there have been no embassy burnings, and no massive riots? Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?

Obviously you haven't been reading any news. :rolleyes:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Pope+Muslim+speech&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

and the firebombing of the churches


http://www.google.com/search?q=Pope+Church+firebomb&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Haven't seen any riots in the street yet.

Haven't seen any riots in the street yet.

Oops! Protests sparked around the world - www.cnn.com

Oops! Protests sparked around the world - www.cnn.com
What's sad is that they're proving him right. :rolleyes:

Note to the radicals: Being Violent over the fact that someone called your religion violent is both Ironic and stupid. If the shoe fits...

Maybe because the cartoons were actually being offensive while the pope was not being offensive. It is just that the quote he used was taken out of contex.

This other thread is basically on that subject, read pages 11 to 13 where the debate became sensible rather than throwing insults and generally commenting on what the pope said without knowing the context.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11689945&posted=1#post11689945

Obviously you haven't been reading any news. :rolleyes:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Pope+Muslim+speech&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

and the firebombing of the churches


http://www.google.com/search?q=Pope+Church+firebomb&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Haven't seen any riots in the street yet.We've been watching different news then, because this is nowhere near what was going on during the cartoons.

http://indiaenews.com/2006-09/22606-delhi-deputy-speaker-discharged-hospital.htm
New Delhi - Delhi Deputy Speaker Shoaib Iqbal was discharged from a hospital Saturday - a day after he was injured in an attack by unidentified people.

Iqbal was admitted to the Sanjivini Hospital after sustaining injuries in his hands and chest.

He told reporters that supporters of Shahi Imam Ahmad Bukhari had attacked him following their clash with his supporters.

While Iqbal was out of the hospital, his personnel security officer Noor Mohammed was in a critical condition at the Lok Nayak Jai Prakash Hospital.

On Friday, the two groups had clashed near the Jama Masjid that injured at least four people including two policemen after they differed over the mode of protest to be adopted against Pope Benedict XVI’s controversial remarks on Islam earlier this week in Germany.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.analysis.reut/index.html
At least one Muslim leader, Syed Ahmed Bukhari, the chief cleric of New Delhi's historic Jama Masjid, India's largest mosque, extolled Muslims to "respond in a manner which forces the pope to apologize." He did not elaborate.

Bukhari is a big time rabble-rouser. I have a feeling that he will use this issue to show his street power.

Bukhari is a big time rabble-rouser. I have a feeling that he will use this issue to show his street power.

oh crap, well i guess you earned the right to say "i told you so" arya :P

Oh I think the violence and threat of violence have been enough. The cartoons didn't bring a response from the enitre Islamic world the very next day, it took weeks for it to build up...

This provocation (if it's fair to call it that) seems to be running right on schedule...

In a broader talk rejecting any religious motivation for violence, Benedict cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

And in response to being called a violent faith…

~In West Bank attacks on churches, Palestinians used guns, firebombs and lighter fluid, leaving church doors charred and walls scorched by flames and pocked with bullet holes. Nobody was reported injured. Two Catholic churches, an Anglican one and a Greek Orthodox one were hit. A Greek Orthodox church was also attacked in Gaza City.

A group calling itself "Lions of Monotheism" told The Associated Press by phone that the attacks were a protest against the pope's remarks on Islam.

~An Iraqi insurgent group threatened the Vatican with a suicide attack over the pope's remarks on Islam, according to a statement posted Saturday on the Web.

"We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life," said the message posted in the name of the Mujahedeen Army on a Web site frequently used by militant groups. The message's authenticity could not be independently verified. The statement was addressed to "you dog of Rome" and threatens to "shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home."
link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060917/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslims)

Well I guess that proves the quote wrong in the first place doesn’t it :rolleyes:

there have been no embassy burnings, and no massive riots? Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?
*turns the lights on*
there will be no embassy burnings (Yes, the the Vatican has "ambassadors")..

because the Pope will say he is sorry.

Depicting Mohammed must be more offensive to scripture.

Depicting Mohammed must be more offensive to scripture.

the quote said muhammed brought only evil and inhumanity into the world, thats about as insulting as depicting him isn't it?

http://www.deccan.com/home/homedetails.asp#5%20churches%20attacked%20in%20West%20Asia?headline=5~churches~attacked~in~West~Asia
5 churches attacked in West Asia


Protests in J&K, UP; Pope upset

Nablus (West Bank) /Srinagar/Lucknow/Vatican City, Sept. 16: Palestinians wielding guns, firebombs and lighter fluid attacked four churches in the West Bank town of Nablus on Saturday, while gunmen opened fire at a fifth in Gaza, following remarks by Pope Benedict XVI that many Muslims view as disparaging.

Well, I suppose that this pope has read the Koran more thoroughly and understood it in all its aspects more deeply than any muslim leader there is.
And if the turkish retard who this time started the protest wave had listened to or read what the pope had really said there would be no protest wave.

the quote said muhammed brought only evil and inhumanity into the world, thats about as insulting as depicting him isn't it?
I don't know. Only Muslims can really answer that one. Preferably calm, rational Muslims.

Has anyone noticed that despite the pope saying this:



there have been no embassy burnings, and no massive riots? Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?

Well, maybe because the cartoons that resulted in the whole mess were purposefully made to piss people off. There where no riots over the first cartoon. All that happened was that Muslim leaders asked the government about why they weren't applying the law that made publishing the cartoons illegal. (Religious hate-speech is banned there.) A few weeks later, a few papers decided to reprint the cartoons, and add new ones in an attempt to make people get angry. They were the real-world equivalent of trolls.

I'm not removing the responsibility from the rioters. I'm pointing out the difference in situations.

Not sure about the credibility of the media. Take it FWIW.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913641658&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Mujahideen's Army threatens Pope with suicide attack

http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=2604
Five churches throughout the West Bank were attacked by Palestinians wielding guns and firebombs.

Firebombings left black scorch marks on the walls and windows of Nablus’ Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches. At least five firebombs hit the Anglican church and its door was later set ablaze. Smoke billowed from the church as firefighters put out the flames

In a phone call to The Associated Press, a group calling itself the "Lions of Monotheism" claimed responsibility for those attacks, saying they were carried out to protest the pope’s remarks in a speech this week in Germany linking Islam and violence.

Later Saturday, four masked gunmen doused the main doors of Nablus’ Roman and Greek Catholic churches with lighter fluid, then set them afire. They also opened fire on the buildings, striking both with bullets.

In Gaza City, militants opened fire from a car at a Greek Orthodox church, striking the facade. A policeman at the scene said he saw a Mitsubishi escape with armed men inside. Explosive devices were set off at the same Gaza church on Friday, causing minor damage.

On Friday night about 2,000 protesters gathered outside the Palestinian parliament building to express their anger at the pope’s statement. "This is a new crusade against the Arab Islamic world. It comes in different forms, in cartoons or lectures ... They hate our religion," Ismail Radwan, a local Hamas official, told the rally.

During one rally gunmen in Gaza city opened fire at the Greek Orthodox church; no injuries or damage were reported. An unknown organization named “The sword of Islam claimed responsibility for the incident.

“We want to make it clear that if the pope does not appear on TV and apologize for his comments, we will blow up all of Gaza’s churches,” the group said in a statement.

Translation: Pope was talking about how Jihad makes Islam look bad.
He should have quoted on how the Crusades made the Christians look bad also.

Right! Cuz those Crusaders who fly hijacked jetliners into Damascus skyscrapers, and suicide bombers blowing up Iranian pizza shacks are making the rest of the Christians look fricking awful! {/arf}

Right! Cuz those Crusaders who fly hijacked jetliners into Damascus skyscrapers, and suicide bombers blowing up Iranian pizza shacks are making the rest of the Christians look fricking awful! {/arf}
I think he was talking about the Crusaders who butchered entire cities of men, women, and children. And they certainly do make Christians look bad. Muslims think of the Crusades much like many Jews think of the Holocaust.

Everybody knows the Pope is a joke. Even Jyllands-Posten has more weight than that wanker. And rightly so.

Pope doesn't wank, Foo'!

Not sure about the credibility of the media. Take it FWIW.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913641658&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Mujahideen's Army threatens Pope with suicide attack

http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=2604
Dumbarses, they do that and they would only be proving the point that the Pope made!

I support the pope all the way and i dont even like him:rolleyes:

Has anyone noticed that despite the pope saying this:



there have been no embassy burnings, and no massive riots? Why is it that when someone draws a picture of muhammed, the muslim world goes nuts and fatwas are issued for the cartoonists deaths, but when the leader of the catholic church says he brought nothing but evil, there is only protest and calls for an apology?


:confused: I'm genuinely confused, can someone shed some light on this?


Actually, some extremists executed a nun or two in Somalia because of the pope's comments.

Does that help with your confusion?

Actually, some extremists executed a nun or two in Somalia because of the pope's comments.

Does that help with your confusion?

There were also minor clashes in the Gaza strip, so we might conclude that people in conflict areas are more prone to violence…

No surprise there

Depicting Mohammed must be more offensive to scripture.
Depicting people is already frowned upon in Islam (because of the Ten Commandments and worship of false Idols), as is speaking ill of God or the prophet. We can imagine that they are not happy with the depiction of the prophet though the riots were largely started by the regimes.

What has to be understood here is that the rdicals who are going to make use of this for their own gain aren't going to be imprressed by any apologies. It was the same thing with the cartoon issue. The radicals even added a few to help incite people.

That's why the apology is pointless.

In fact, The Pope's biggest mistake was to apologize. What he should have said was:

"The comments I made in my speech have been taken out of their proper context. If anyone wishes to debate that issue with me, I'd gladly discuss it peacefully, but that's the end of it. God Bless."

By apologizing he implicitly concedes some kind of bad intent or carelessness, and encourages this kind of overreaction.

I personally am sick of this double standard where people in the West get taken to task for the most minor things, but leaders in the Middle East can talk all day about destroying Israel, USA is the great Satan, etc.

I personally am sick of this double standard where people in the West get taken to task for the most minor things, but leaders in the Middle East can talk all day about destroying Israel, USA is the great Satan, etc.
How true, where's my excuse to blow up an embassy and get off scot free? And why can't I decapitate a cleric if I hear him talking about how evil the west is? I mean they can do the same to us.

This is in England.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=405622&in_page_id=1770&ct=5#StartComments
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/09/muslims180906_700x467.jpg

Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be "subject to capital punishment".

His remarks came during a protest outside Westminster Cathedral on a day that worldwide anger among Muslim hardliners towards Pope Benedict XVI appeared to deepen.
..
Choudary's appeal for the death of Pope Benedict was the second time he has been linked with apparent incitement to murder within a year.

The 39-year-old lawyer organised demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.

"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

In other words "I am going to beat the shit out of you until you agree that I am a peaceful person".:p

In other words "I am going to beat the shit out of you until you agree that I am a peaceful person".:p The irony! the horrible irony!