NationStates Jolt Archive

http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/14/news/companies/ford_changes/index.htm?cnn=yes

Are the evil hybrids are hurting them?

whats so evil about hybrids?

It's what happens when a company gets lazy. They've been making crappy SUVs in their home market for too long, just taking the easy profits. Then SUVs fall out of fashion, and suddenly they're up to their necks in it.

Possibly by the Renault-Nissan-GM group (if that ever materialises).

whats so evil about hybrids?

Nothing at all. There have been a few people here that have bashed them repeatedly.....

Must be getting late in the day, I thought, "Gerald Ford? Required for what? The man's 100 years old, isn't he? Leave him be."

*wanders off to have something to eat*

Possibly by the Renault-Nissan-GM group (if that ever materialises).

Jesus... what part of the world does that leave out?

Nothing at all. There have been a few people here that have bashed them repeatedly.....
I am a proud member of the Repeatedly Bashing Hybrid's Alliance. :cool:

Jesus... what part of the world does that leave out?
Seeing as such an alliance covers only three nations, the obvious answer is 'most of it'.

Possibly by the Renault-Nissan-GM group (if that ever materialises).

I don't think that could happen as I think it would come into conflict with US monopoly laws.

But I am not positive on that.

Vetalia could answer that one.

Jesus... what part of the world does that leave out?

Uzbekistan?

Probably not, actually....

Yeah, it's GM's big plan to save themselves; get bought by the Renault-Nissan group. And Renault-Nissan seem interested.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/14/news/companies/ford_changes/index.htm?cnn=yes

Are the evil hybrids are hurting them?

There's a lot of other stuff that's hurting Ford. The only product line that they actually make money on is the F-series pickup trucks. Everything, and I mean everything else loses money. Maybe a few dollars a vehicle or maybe a few hundred, but they all lose money. Even Mustangs, if you will believe that.

My vote for what hurts Ford the most is the UAW. Second is probably the price of steel. Third is probably their lack of imagination and vision. If re-tooling a forty year old car is the best new product that they can introduce, they're in so much trouble that they aren't going to find their way out.

I am a proud member of the Repeatedly Bashing Hybrid's Alliance. :cool:

Can I join?

I think Ford will survive this without any mergers or takeovers. Alan Muhally(sp?) is taking over the reigns of the company, and he developed a rep at Boeing for pulling the shit out of the fire, or however that saying goes.

Looks like Ford was smart enough to understand that he wasn't up to the task so he stepped aside for someone who could give Ford a boost.

It'll be interesting to see if Alan can transfer his experience with one of the major aircraft builders into successfully re-working a huge auto manufacturer.

There is nothing wrong with SUV's. They are excellent for what they are designed for. Unfortunately, the price of operating them skyrocketed thanks to the gas price jumps we've seen recently. So the market went soft for them. That was something no one at FoMoCo could have expected or anticipated.

Third is probably their lack of imagination and vision. If re-tooling a forty year old car is the best new product that they can introduce, they're in so much trouble that they aren't going to find their way out.

That is actually a huge issue. My cousin works for a piping company that sells to the big 3.

He said Ford (the grandson) was actually a very green minded executive who tried do do new things. For example, built a building with a living roof. Invested in a dozen ethonal plants. My cousin said the board was fighting him and it appears they won.....

Can I join?
Sure, although as far as I'm aware you're only the second member. I'm not sure who else The Black Forrest was referring to.

Sure, although as far as I'm aware you're only the second member. I'm not sure who else The Black Forrest was referring to.

I admit I can't name names I just remember a few people saying they were a joke/fad/no milage savings....

Take it for what you will.

I would not trust my memory as these days my long term memory is about 5 minutes ;)

Why would they buy up ford? Would make some of their own facilities redundant.

They sank themselves with incompetent, overpriced and overstaffed middle/upper management and unions that demand too much for what they produce. I could've told them that it makes absolutely no sense to rely on one sector of the market for almost all of your profits and most of your revenue, especially when that sector is very vulnerable to gas prices and their inefficiency will ultimately provide an impetus for higher prices.

I also could've told them that the market for SUVs would slow down as competitiors entered the market and it shifted from a new-purchase market to a much slower growing replacement market; even worse, they rely solely on truck-based SUVs even though crossover models are the ones attracting the most attention, especially since they combine many of the same benefits of truck-platform SUVs with the efficiency and aesthetic qualities of cars.

Ford offers few efficient models, and its cars are generally uninspiring and bland with terrible depreciation problems; even worse, they are not making moves to become dominant in the hybrid vehicle sector, which is where the profits are going to be in to the future. Hybrids are here to stay, and are the future of the automotive sector; they're going to become as integral a part of the market as the gasoline engine itself and are not a fad by any means.

If Ford steps in and creates a line of cost-effective, attractive, and fuel efficient hybrid cars and SUVs they will take back significant market share and will rebuild the company's revenue and profits. Otherwise, the "Way Forward" is nothing more than the "Way Forward to Bankruptcy".

Sure, although as far as I'm aware you're only the second member. I'm not sure who else The Black Forrest was referring to.

So it be an exclusive club then.

That works for me.

Going by the other auto makers, I thknk the rework of the Mustang was a good idea. It needed a facelift, and the retro-styling has provven very popular, witness the HHR from GM and DCs' PT Cruiser. Both are very popular if the amount of them I see on the road everyday is any indication.

And, because of the 'Stang, both GM and Daimler-Chrysler are bringing back cars the discontinued years ago, I.E. the Camaro and the Challenger. If they prove as well received by the car-buying public as the Mustang has been, then it can only help the companies and their workers.


I admit I can't name names I just remember a few people saying they were a joke/fad/no milage savings....

Take it for what you will.

I would not trust my memory as these days my long term memory is about 5 minutes

Their was a thread on the hybrid subject earlier this year. And yeah quite a few people, including myself, spoke out against them. So your memory is doing just fine.

Seeing as such an alliance covers only three nations, the obvious answer is 'most of it'.

Japan, America, France...

I'm sorry, I'm drawing a blank. Oh, wait. The Middle East Country and Canadia. I guess those are pretty big.

It's what happens when a company gets lazy. They've been making crappy SUVs in their home market for too long, just taking the easy profits. Then SUVs fall out of fashion, and suddenly they're up to their necks in it.


Hmm you think they would have learned after the big gas guzzlers they had back in the early 70's when the small European/Japanese cars came out. Apparently even after 25 yeas of restructioning and downsizing the big 3 still can't get their act together,

Problem is the Big 3 never felt the need to innovate at all. If you want efficent you buy a european car, if you want the latest gadgets you buy japanese. If you want to support a bloated labor union you buy GMC or Ford.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/14/news/companies/ford_changes/index.htm?cnn=yes

Are the evil hybrids are hurting them?

Rumor has it that they'll take the company private.

Problem is the Big 3 never felt the need to innovate at all. If you want efficent you buy a european car, if you want the latest gadgets you buy japanese. If you want to support a bloated labor union you buy GMC or Ford.


Japanese and European car manufacturers are unionized as well. The Japanese have a sense of ownership in thier society and deep sense that each person works as a whole in a group. The big 3 for the last 25 years has actually shrunk it's work force and now only employs about a quarter of what it did back in the 70's. They also moved many plants to Mexico for cheaper labor and less probs with unions. The problem with the big three has to do with their complete lack of innovation and the managment class demanding huge salaries. If they had GM would of kept the electric EV-1 and moved the other models over to hybrids(as an option) instead of SUVS.

I admit I can't name names I just remember a few people saying they were a joke/fad/no milage savings....

Take it for what you will.

I would not trust my memory as these days my long term memory is about 5 minutes ;)
That sounds like me. 8 months here and I just about qualify for 'someone once said' status. Respect. :p

. If they had GM would of kept the electric EV-1 and moved the other models over to hybrids instead of SUVS.

Hell, even bumping up fuel economy would have helped; I don't think GM offers more than a couple vehicles that get over 30 mpg highway, let along combined mpg. Actually, I don't think any of their vehicles except the Chevy Aveo gets better than 30 combined mpg. Most probably get no better than 25 combined, and none of their SUVs even break 20 or so.

Ford isn't much better, but GM is absolutely atrocious...that's probably why their market share has fallen almost every single year since 1979.

Ford's the only US car company that did at all well over the past 20 years. Which is why the big three is now only 2 companies (now that Chrysler is German), and GM's been hemmorraging money forever.

Toyota has enough liquid assets to buy GM outright, which is probably what's spurring the Renault-Nissan-GM suggestions. Other car companies don't want Toyota to buy GM. First of all, it would make Toyota really huge, and it would create a US market with exactly one domestic carmaker. Ford could make a killing with that in advertising.

Imagine if Ford was the only US carmaker left. The whole "Buy American" thing would suddenly become a huge part of their marketing. They'd want everyone to know that GM was Japanese and Chrysler was German.

If they had GM would of kept the electric EV-1 and moved the other models over to hybrids(as an option) instead of SUVS.

If I remember right, the EV-1 was dropped because it was too damned costly to build, range sucked, the technology to support it wasn't in place and there was a decided lack of customer demand for the vehicle.

Imagine if Ford was the only US carmaker left. The whole "Buy American" thing would suddenly become a huge part of their marketing. They'd want everyone to know that GM was Japanese and Chrysler was German.

And, ironically, they'd still lose because most people place value, aesthetics, efficiency and quality above "buying American" any day. It's even funnier when you consider that more and more of Ford's products no longer qualify as domestic cars and more and more of Toyota/Honda/Nissan's products do.

And, ironically, they'd still lose because most people place value, aesthetics, efficiency and quality above "buying American" any day. It's even funnier when you consider that more and more of Ford's products no longer qualify as domestic cars and more and more of Toyota/Honda/Nissan's products do.

I was looking at a Toyota truck the other day. The sticker in the window indicated it was made with 95% United States parts. That's darned good.

If I remember right, the EV-1 was dropped because it was too damned costly to build, range sucked, the technology to support it wasn't in place and there was a decided lack of customer demand for the vehicle.

Oil Co propaganda. The reason was simple fact that the oil company wants us addicted to the product. Hmm comparing the oil companies to the drug cartels is pretty obvious. It's why the Toyota and Honda don't offer more hybrids and why theirs a 2 year waiting list. of course u hear the naysayers who say that the hybrids don't get the gas millage and they breakdown.

I was looking at a Toyota truck the other day. The sticker in the window indicated it was made with 95% United States parts. That's darned good.
If I remember correctly, though, products only have a small portion of their assembly in one country to qualify for 'Made in ...' status. In other words, they could have been made in Japan, then shipped over the US for some guy to polish the windows, and they could legitimately say they were made in the USA.

If I remember correctly, though, products only have a small portion of their assembly in one country to qualify for 'Made in ...' status. In other words, they could have been made in Japan, then shipped over the US for some guy to polish the windows, and they could legitimately say they were made in the USA.

There's always a catch, isn't there? That still looks better than the mostly Made in Mexico labels I see on a lot of other car parts.

I was looking at a Toyota truck the other day. The sticker in the window indicated it was made with 95% United States parts. That's darned good.

Ohio's a big investment site for Honda and Toyota, so their products mean jobs in our state especially in my hometown and surrounding cities in southern Ohio. And I'd rather buy a Japanese car with 80-90% US parts than a Ford truck with a Chinese engine and foreign parts...even better, the US-made Toyota truck is still cheaper than the foreign-made Ford and has a longer warranty and better depreciation.

Of course, the best thing would be every automaker, US and foreign, growing and increasing US production but that's not likely, especially given that our market is mature and demand simply won't grow fast enough to keep every company growing.

whats so evil about hybrids?

Only the fact that they all look fuckin' ugly...

Someone needs to design a body for a hybrid that doesn't scream "I'm a big gay" to the rest of traffic...

Only the fact that they all look fuckin' ugly...

Someone needs to design a body for a hybrid that doesn't scream "I'm a big gay" to the rest of traffic...

They're still not as bad as the Hummer H2...that's the real bottom of the barrel.

But honestly, I think the Prius actually looks pretty good.

Only the fact that they all look fuckin' ugly...

Someone needs to design a body for a hybrid that doesn't scream "I'm a big gay" to the rest of traffic...


Not as bad as those ugly as Scions or the Pontiac Aztec. Someone should shoot the designers of those. Scion looks like an ugly East German car. As far as the Hummer, they need to tell them it ain't cool to drive a ugly tank car, especiallly with only one person in it.

Edit: Scion XB (http://www.scion.com/showroom/xb/gallery/) which looks like a box on wheels.

700 Posts!!!

They're still not as bad as the Hummer H2...that's the real bottom of the barrel.

But honestly, I think the Prius actually looks pretty good.

Well, I don't, I think it's WAY to curvy... I want something in with, like, a Celica body, or a nice hatchback...

Yeah, that's right, I like the looks of 'burners.

EDIT: Honestly, I just want a NORMAL car body. Why can't they make a hybrid model of the Civic or Corrolla?

EDIT: Honestly, I just want a NORMAL car body. Why can't they make a hybrid model of the Civic or Corrolla?
There is a hybrid Civic. The Archbishop of Canterbury drives one.

There is a hybrid Civic. The Archbishop of Canterbury drives one.

Fine. Whatever. You win.

*sigh*

Fine. Whatever. You win.

*sigh*
I win? What do I win?

I want a big prize.

If it's a car, it'd better not be a hybrid.

Well, I don't, I think it's WAY to curvy... I want something in with, like, a Celica body, or a nice hatchback...

Yeah, that's right, I like the looks of 'burners.

I like both.

EDIT: Honestly, I just want a NORMAL car body. Why can't they make a hybrid model of the Civic or Corrolla?

There is a hybrid Civic as well as a hybrid Accord. Also, I think there are some more offerings in development over the next few years; I'd say there will be a hybrid Corolla in the near future along with more products like the Camry and even hybrid full-size SUVs.

I win? What do I win?

I want a big prize.

If it's a car, it'd better not be a hybrid.
Wanna cookie? It's shortbread...

There is a hybrid Civic
No shit? 'Cause Philosopy didn't just say that...
as well as a hybrid Accord. Also, I think there are some more offerings in development over the next few years; I'd say there will be a hybrid Corolla in the near future along with more products like the Camry and even hybrid full-size SUVs.
Why the f*ck would I want a hybrid Camry or SUV? Why would ANYBODY?!

I'll stick with being a pedestrian for now...

Why the f*ck would I want a hybrid Camry or SUV? Why would ANYBODY?!

I'll stick with being a pedestrian for now...

I know there is a drunk Irishman joke in there somewhere! :p

I like both.



There is a hybrid Civic as well as a hybrid Accord. Also, I think there are some more offerings in development over the next few years; I'd say there will be a hybrid Corolla in the near future along with more products like the Camry and even hybrid full-size SUVs.

Hybrid SUVs like the Lexus RX 400h?

Oil Co propaganda. The reason was simple fact that the oil company wants us addicted to the product. Hmm comparing the oil companies to the drug cartels is pretty obvious. It's why the Toyota and Honda don't offer more hybrids and why theirs a 2 year waiting list. of course u hear the naysayers who say that the hybrids don't get the gas millage and they breakdown.

And there are people who have reported mileage for Prius's in the high 30's. Considering the standard Civic get into the 40's, that is hardly stellar. Hell my 10 year old Dodge gets in the mid 30's. At 70mph too.

So GM is really still working on the car and the oil companies are saying they aren"t? Ooo-kaay........

Here you go, from GM's website. GM Blog (http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog.html#EV1)

KNOW THE FACTS

GM invested more than $1 billion in the EV1 program, which included money for installing a charging infrastructure and for marketing the product.

Even with extensive publicity, award-winning advertising and customer incentives the Electric Vehicle program was not a commercially viable business.

GM leveraged advanced technology to create the Saturn Vue Green Line Hybrid. It will hit showrooms later this summer, incorporating a new, more affordable gas-electric technology.

It wasn't the return on investment they would have needed to keep it going. Or is that just Big Oil Propaganda too?

* GM spent more than $1 billion developing the EV1 including significant sums on marketing and incentives to develop a mass market for it.
* Only 800 vehicles were leased during a four-year period.
* No other major automotive manufacturer is producing a pure electric vehicle for use on public roads and highways.
* A waiting list of 5,000 only generated 50 people willing to follow through to a lease.
* Because of low demand for the EV1, parts suppliers quit making replacement parts making future repair and safety of the vehicles difficult to nearly impossible.

The hybrid cars get their best mileage in the city, while most other cars get their best mileage on the highway. As such, the Prius makes an excellent car for cab drivers.

But if you want amazing highway (or freeway, for that matter) fuel economy, just get a Volkswagen and put a diesel in it. Daimler's also starting to put diesels in Jeeps - diesel engines are way more efficient than gas engines.

And Ford already makes a hybrid SUV. The Escape.

The hybrid cars get their best mileage in the city, while most other cars get their best mileage on the highway. As such, the Prius makes an excellent car for cab drivers.

But if you want amazing highway (or freeway, for that matter) fuel economy, just get a Volkswagen and put a diesel in it. Daimler's also starting to put diesels in Jeeps - diesel engines are way more efficient than gas engines.

And Ford already makes a hybrid SUV. The Escape.
Don't cab drivers have to actually have room for passengers and luggage? I'm still convinced the Mercedes E-class diesel is the best car for cab drivers.

I'm thinking: huge government bailout to allow GM or some other US company to buy it.

That'll kill the whole US industry in one blow. ;)

Only the fact that they all look fuckin' ugly...

Someone needs to design a body for a hybrid that doesn't scream "I'm a big gay" to the rest of traffic...
Actually it's a full blown electric, but I think that it looks totally badass (http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1)

Don't cab drivers have to actually have room for passengers and luggage? I'm still convinced the Mercedes E-class diesel is the best car for cab drivers.

In SF a lot of the cabs use natural gas.

Don't cab drivers have to actually have room for passengers and luggage? I'm still convinced the Mercedes E-class diesel is the best car for cab drivers.

Alot of minicab drivers here use Skoda Octavias or Skoda Superbs. Diesel, of course.

Very well suited to the job from what I know; very reliable, sturdy, cheap (relatively), roomy, powerful, frugal and comfortable.

And with the VW guarantee of quality. Which is always nice.

Don't cab drivers have to actually have room for passengers and luggage? I'm still convinced the Mercedes E-class diesel is the best car for cab drivers.
The Prius is quite a tall car, so there's plenty of headroom. And the trunk is quite deep.

It's no E-Class, but I don't think I've ever seen a cab quite that large since they stopped using Lincoln Town Cars.

Hybrid SUVs like the Lexus RX 400h?

Actually, yeah. Also, the Ford Escape is another example; it has combined 31mpg (33 city/29 highway) that is better than the average mid-sized car.

Those numbers might seem small, but when you compare them conventional SUVs it's a pretty significant boost in mileage.

Alot of minicab drivers here use Skoda Octavias or Skoda Superbs. Diesel, of course.

Very well suited to the job from what I know; very reliable, sturdy, cheap (relatively), roomy, powerful, frugal and comfortable.

And with the VW guarantee of quality. Which is always nice.

We changed our immesions standards so now only Mercedes is going to import diesels next year. Not even VW, who has constantly offered diesels here.

We only get Skodas in video games.

Maybe if Ford would release some of those better cars that they offer everyone else here they'd do better.

Don't cab drivers have to actually have room for passengers and luggage? I'm still convinced the Mercedes E-class diesel is the best car for cab drivers.

The big Ford Crown Vic I rode in a week ago was rather nice. Got to actually stretch my legs out, in the back seat no less.

Also, the Ford Escape is another example; it has combined 31mpg (33 city/29 highway) that is better than the average mid-sized car.
What Ford Escape are you talking about? Must be the 4-cylinder, because our second car is the V6, and I have never ever even gotten close to figures like that.
In fact, during my Golf's absence I had to use that thing to deliver Pizzas, and it seriously cut into my profit margins.

We changed our immesions standards so now only Mercedes is going to import diesels next year. Not even VW, who has constantly offered diesels here.

That's a massive mistake. Diesel makes up for some 45% of the car market in the UK alone, and selling much faster that petrol.

We only get Skodas in video games.

Pity, they're really good cars now; basically VWs at a cheaper price because they have the Skoda badge, often youll get a much higher spec Skoda for the money you would get a base VW

Maybe if Ford would release some of those better cars that they offer everyone else here they'd do better.

You need to get them to offer great cars like the Mondeo, Focus, Galaxy...those are three seriously good cars, right up with the best in their segments, and they don't offer them in their home market, despite having poured hundreds of millions into their development. Crazy.

What Ford Escape are you talking about? Must be the 4-cylinder, because our second car is the V6, and I have never ever even gotten close to figures like that.
In fact, during my Golf's absence I had to use that thing to deliver Pizzas, and it seriously cut into my profit margins.


I believe he is talking about the hybrid version.


You need to get them to offer great cars like the Mondeo, Focus, Galaxy...those are three seriously good cars, right up with the best in their segments, and they don't offer them in their home market, despite having poured hundreds of millions into their development. Crazy.

Erm, we have the first two here. They renamed the Mondeo the Contour for the American market, and the Focus replaced the Escort several years ago.

I believe he is talking about the hybrid version.



Erm, we have the first two here. They renamed the Mondeo the Contour for the American market, and the Focus replaced the Escort several years ago.

They make better specs of those for the European market. Every once in a while you'll read in one of the car magazines the testers bemoaning the better versions the Europeans get. The Focus, particularly, is actually a formadable hot hatch everywhere else but here, despite the hot rod market that exists here in small cars like that.

I believe he is talking about the hybrid version.



Erm, we have the first two here. They renamed the Mondeo the Contour for the American market, and the Focus replaced the Escort several years ago.

You dont have the proper versions though

What Ford Escape are you talking about? Must be the 4-cylinder, because our second car is the V6, and I have never ever even gotten close to figures like that.

The hybrid version; the regular Escape only gets a combined 22 mpg (4-cylinder). The hybrid gets about 31 mpg.

In fact, during my Golf's absence I had to use that thing to deliver Pizzas, and it seriously cut into my profit margins.

The regular version only gets about 19 mpg city, so it's little better than most other SUVs.

They make better specs of those for the European market. Every once in a while you'll read in one of the car magazines the testers bemoaning the better versions the Europeans get. The Focus, particularly, is actually a formadable hot hatch everywhere else but here, despite the hot rod market that exists here in small cars like that.

I think alot of that has to do with the fact the aftermarket for tuners is still, despite the abundance of great compacts from other sources, focused on Hondas'.

Can someone explain to me why the price tag on a lot of smaller cars in Europe, mainly the "hotter" versions, seem to be so damned pricey? I've noticed that reading through some of the compact car magazines, when they mention the price tag of some of the performance models, the price seems to climb into the $40-$60K range. Why?

And I still want to know why the hell the gods-be-damned AMERICAN car manufacturers build their best cars ONLY outside the US!!:headbang:

The big Ford Crown Vic I rode in a week ago was rather nice. Got to actually stretch my legs out, in the back seat no less.

Oh yeah, there are many bigger cars than the E-class. It's just a great combination of passenger and luggage room with very good durabilty and mileage. My 1995 E-300 is still turning in 33-35 mpg on the highways and 29+ on local trips. It's hard to break them out, but the average overall mileage is always between 30 and 33 mpg. Those are miles and gallons for you metricists, not meters and grams.

what are hybrids?

what are hybrids?

Elephants; white in colour.

what are hybrids?

Gasoline electric cars that have a small combustion engine in them that gets a power assist during normally high gas-using levels from the electric motor, and at other times remains at a constant rpm recharging the batteries. Power is also collected from braking.

They tend to get around a third better miliage than straight gasoline, depending. Some other small engine cars get close and diesels get around the same. Since the engine doesn't run all the time and is only within a limited range they also reduce emmissions.

The hybrid cars get their best mileage in the city, while most other cars get their best mileage on the highway. As such, the Prius makes an excellent car for cab drivers.

But if you want amazing highway (or freeway, for that matter) fuel economy, just get a Volkswagen and put a diesel in it. Daimler's also starting to put diesels in Jeeps - diesel engines are way more efficient than gas engines.

And Ford already makes a hybrid SUV. The Escape.

Taxis use LPG (http://www.lpgaustralia.com.au/displaycommon.cfm?an=4) here in Aus. It burns cleaner than petrol or diesel and is cheaper. LPG costs around 40c-50c per litre, as opposed to $1.20-$1.30 for petrol & diesel. They convert the locally made large car Ford Falcons (http://www.ford.com.au/range/falcon/models/) & Holden Commodores (http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/vehicleentry?vehicleid=4) to run on LPG instead of petrol.

Taxis use LPG (http://www.lpgaustralia.com.au/displaycommon.cfm?an=4) here in Aus. It burns cleaner than petrol or diesel and is cheaper. LPG costs around 40c-50c per litre, as opposed to $1.20-$1.30 for petrol & diesel. They convert the locally made large car Ford Falcons (http://www.ford.com.au/range/falcon/models/) & Holden Commodores (http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/vehicleentry?vehicleid=4) to run on LPG instead of petrol.

In my part of Georgia, I see a number of Public Utility vehicles using LNG. It's a good idea if the infrastructure supports easy refueling. I could see a LNG-Electric hybrid being a great predecessor to an all-electric vehicle.

Can someone explain to me why the price tag on a lot of smaller cars in Europe, mainly the "hotter" versions, seem to be so damned pricey? I've noticed that reading through some of the compact car magazines, when they mention the price tag of some of the performance models, the price seems to climb into the $40-$60K range. Why?

What are you counting as a smaller car?

Oh yeah, there are many bigger cars than the E-class. It's just a great combination of passenger and luggage room with very good durabilty and mileage. My 1995 E-300 is still turning in 33-35 mpg on the highways and 29+ on local trips. It's hard to break them out, but the average overall mileage is always between 30 and 33 mpg. Those are miles and gallons for you metricists, not meters and grams.

LOL, it would be cool, but I can't see the local taxi companies switching to Benz's. I doubt they'd go for the intitial outlay of money.

Averaging 33? Your bloody Benz is mathcing my compact 4-banger! I assume it is diesel? Isn't diesel more expensive that regular where you are? It's about 50 cents/gallon more here.

What are you counting as a smaller car?

The Clio is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. The review of th ecar I saw in a mag here priced it out somewhere above 40K. Way to steep for a compact car IMO. I was gonna mention the higher range Mitsubishi Evo's, but I am not sure they count.

When I mention smaller, I am thinking compacts. If that helps any?

Taxis use LPG (http://www.lpgaustralia.com.au/displaycommon.cfm?an=4) here in Aus. It burns cleaner than petrol or diesel and is cheaper. LPG costs around 40c-50c per litre, as opposed to $1.20-$1.30 for petrol & diesel. They convert the locally made large car Ford Falcons (http://www.ford.com.au/range/falcon/models/) & Holden Commodores (http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/vehicleentry?vehicleid=4) to run on LPG instead of petrol.
Most places that price difference is due primarily to taxation.

I recall some years ago the Canadian government announced it was converting thousands of its cars to run on natural gas in order to reduce expenditures.

Except that the price difference was due entirely to federal taxes, so their savings were taxes they weren't paying to themselves. I can only imagine how many millions of dollars were wasted on that program.

The Clio is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. The review of th ecar I saw in a mag here priced it out somewhere above 40K. Way to steep for a compact car IMO. I was gonna mention the higher range Mitsubishi Evo's, but I am not sure they count.

When I mention smaller, I am thinking compacts. If that helps any?

We call them superminis, not compacts, if it's the same as what I think you mean.

A Clio here costs about £8k. So about $14-15k.

We call them superminis, not compacts, if it's the same as what I think you mean.

A Clio here costs about £8k. So about $14-15k.

Might be. Don't know the differences in nomenclature. (I hope I used that word right!:D ) Are the Focus called superminis there?

I was actually talking about the performance versions. So the Clio with the V6 in was the one they tested.

14 to 15? Shit, why hasn't Renault tried to push that here? A compact that price, and I haven't heard anything about quality issues, would more than likely do quite well. And those look alot better than most of the cookie-cutter cars coming out of Japan.

Might be. Don't know the differences in nomenclature. (I hope I used that word right!:D ) Are the Focus called superminis there?

I was actually talking about the performance versions. So the Clio with the V6 in was the one they tested.

Well, that's because the Clio V6 is mid engined, rear wheel drive, does 0-60 in about 5 seconds, and handles like a dream.

14 to 15? Shit, why hasn't Renault tried to push that here? A compact that price, and I haven't heard anything about quality issues, would more than likely do quite well. And those look alot better than most of the cookie-cutter cars coming out of Japan.

There's maybe 4 others that are just as good and at the same price......
Vauxhall Corsa
Toyota Yaris
Ford Fiesta
Nissan Micra (even if it looks bloody stupid)

IIRC they make up the biggest segment in the UK car market. They're all very well built cars...have to be, competition in the segment is huge.

In my part of Georgia, I see a number of Public Utility vehicles using LNG. It's a good idea if the infrastructure supports easy refueling. I could see a LNG-Electric hybrid being a great predecessor to an all-electric vehicle.

Gasoline-electric is even easier; you've already got the infrastructure in place so the cost is less, and then it's just a matter of working out the technology until it becomes cost competitive with conventional gasoline and hybrid vehicles. I'd say 10-15 years tops for a cost-competitive model.

LNG is better for mass transit in my opinion; it's cleaner and cheaper than diesel, and the relatively smaller number of stations needed to refuel mass transit makes it cheaper to install.

Why aren't there diesel-electric hybrids? They'd be even more efficient that gas-electric.

Why aren't there diesel-electric hybrids? They'd be even more efficient that gas-electric.

I think because of the cost; diesel engines already come with a premium over gasoline engines, and when you combine that with the cost of the hybrid system as is the cost disparity is pretty big. Also, diesel costs more and is not offered in as many places as gasoline; when you combine the added cost of the diesel engine, the added cost of the hybrid and the added cost of the diesel fuel itself, the benefits of increased efficiency are outweighed by the cost of fuel.

Also, there are environmental problems with diesels; in the US, the ultra-low sulfur diesel program has only just come in to effect and so European diesel vehicles are still unable to meet emissions requirements in the US. Once they're revised to account for this change the market will be open but currently that is a barrier to diesels in the US markets. Now, in Europe I would say diesel hybrids may have a bigger market; however, they also have to compete with extremely efficient diesel engines that offer mileage comparable to high-efficiency hybrids but without the added cost.

Gasoline-electric hybrids are going to be the primary path to electric vehicles. Diesel is simply too costly right now to really compete in the hybrid market; perhaps once the cost differential between hybrids and regular vehicles are eliminated they will become competitive, but currently they aren't.

I Dont think Ford is going to be bought out soon, consdiering they do have some profitable branchs.

Ford owns Mazda/Volvo/Jag/Aston Martin.

So they cant be doing that bad.

Though GM being purchased would be great, the whole only American Car maker would sell cars very quickly.

Plus, Ford is the only company I know of that has offered high end sports car performance for a fraction of the price.

The 98 SVT Contour and Focus RS/Crosworth Escort come to mind.

I Dont think Ford is going to be bought out soon, consdiering they do have some profitable branchs.

Ford owns Mazda/Volvo/Jag/Aston Martin.

So they cant be doing that bad.

Though GM being purchased would be great, the whole only American Car maker would sell cars very quickly.

Plus, Ford is the only company I know of that has offered high end sports car performance for a fraction of the price.

The 98 SVT Contour and Focus RS/Crosworth Escort come to mind.


I'd bet my next paycheck that there is NO WAY that GM will join with Renault/Nissan. Why?

The Chrysler Benz merger is seen as a complete failure in Michigan, and no one wants a repeat.

GM has a unique corporate culture that does not play well with others.

Interestingly, the Detroit News is reporting that an investment group headed by Jacques Nasser, a former Ford CEO, is trying to buy Aston Martin from Ford. Ford will lose the millions invested in A/M over the past few years, but the cash infusion will come in handy right now.

And, Bill Ford sent an invitation to Renault Nissan to discuss a merger if the GM talks fall through. THAT just might work if the Ford family could keep a majority share.

These are gonna be interesting times...

Why aren't there diesel-electric hybrids? They'd be even more efficient that gas-electric.

I think because of the cost; diesel engines already come with a premium over gasoline engines, and when you combine that with the cost of the hybrid system as is the cost disparity is pretty big. Also, diesel costs more and is not offered in as many places as gasoline; when you combine the added cost of the diesel engine, the added cost of the hybrid and the added cost of the diesel fuel itself, the benefits of increased efficiency are outweighed by the cost of fuel.

Also, there are environmental problems with diesels; in the US, the ultra-low sulfur diesel program has only just come in to effect and so European diesel vehicles are still unable to meet emissions requirements in the US. Once they're revised to account for this change the market will be open but currently that is a barrier to diesels in the US markets. Now, in Europe I would say diesel hybrids may have a bigger market; however, they also have to compete with extremely efficient diesel engines that offer mileage comparable to high-efficiency hybrids but without the added cost.

Gasoline-electric hybrids are going to be the primary path to electric vehicles. Diesel is simply too costly right now to really compete in the hybrid market; perhaps once the cost differential between hybrids and regular vehicles are eliminated they will become competitive, but currently they aren't.
Actually, at an auto show a year or so ago Ford, of all companies unvieled a 65 mpg diesel hybrid (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10788292/).

There is also, apparently, Diesel hybrid garbage trucks (http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/08/hybrid_garbage_.html) on the horizon. But it's diesel-hydrolic hybrid. This is something I didn't know, came up in a search for the other Ford. Contains this interesting bit:
Ford did, however, test a hydraulic-hybrid Expedition SUV that delivered 27 mpg in the city before joining with Toyota to build gas-electric systems instead.

What I've wondered is what if a turbine engine was used, functioning more as an on-board generator that can give high speed boost when needed but the car would run primarily under electric power, as a engine like that would be good at keeping high rpms to create electricity. I thought I was just a goon who didn't know crap about engineering, and while that's true, it turns out I wasn't completly on crack, one of the groups angling for the 100mpg production car x-prize is using something based on an air-conditioning motor in a similar fashion. Not exactly, but their engineers, not 'some dude.'

What I've read recently about the diesel hybrid is that the electric motors assist the diesel engine when it needs it the least, unlike a gasoline motors where the assist comes when it's most needed.

Actually, at an auto show a year or so ago Ford, of all companies unvieled a 65 mpg diesel hybrid (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10788292/).

Awesome. I personally would prefer diesel vehicles and gasoline-electric hybrids (to maxmize the number of vehicles that can have their fuel economy boosted and spread out the cost) but this is cool too.

There is also, apparently, Diesel hybrid garbage trucks (http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/08/hybrid_garbage_.html) on the horizon. But it's diesel-hydrolic hybrid. :

Hydraulics deliver a boost in fuel economy of up to 50% according to the developers of the technology; I'd give it a little longer to be tested but this could be very helpful.

One concern might be the noise factor; hydraulics could work on big vehicles like garbage trucks, but they would be simply too noisy to really catch on with smaller vehicles.

Screw hybrids. I'd rather have full Hydrogen or Electric to be totally honest.

I've driven hybrid cars before, and they're not the same. A straight up gas powered car is ALOT faster and just feels like it has alot more power ( because it does )