NationStates Jolt Archive

When rockets and phosphorous cluster
Israel, September 14, 2006

"In Lebanon, we covered entire villages with cluster bombs, what we did there was crazy and monstrous," testifies a commander in the Israel Defense Forces' MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) unit. Quoting his battalion commander, he said the IDF fired some 1,800 cluster rockets on Lebanon during the war and they contained over 1.2 million cluster bombs. The IDF also used cluster shells fired by 155 mm artillery cannons, so the number of cluster bombs fired on Lebanon is even higher. At the same time, soldiers in the artillery corps testified that the IDF used phosphorous shells, which many experts say is prohibited by international law. According to the claims, the overwhelming majority of the weapons mentioned were fired during the last ten days of the war.

The commander asserted that there was massive use of MLRS rockets despite the fact that they are known to be very inaccurate - the rockets' deviation from the target reaches to around 1,200 meters - and that a substantial percentage do not explode and become mines. Due to these facts, most experts view cluster ammunitions as a "non-discerning" weapon that is prohibited for use in a civilian environment. The percentage of duds among the rockets fired by the U.S. army in Iraq reached 30 percent and the United Nations' land mine removal team in Lebanon claims that the percentage of duds among the rockets fired by the IDF reaches some 40 percent. In light of these figures, the number of duds left behind by the Israeli cluster rockets in Lebanon is likely to reach half a million.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the rockets' imprecision, the order was to "flood" the area with them. "We have no option of striking an isolated target, and the commanders know this very well," he said. He also stated that the reserve soldiers were surprised by the use of MLRS rockets, because during their regular army service, they were told these are the IDF's "judgment day weapons"...()

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761910.html
(post can your comments at that site too.. check the bottom of that page)

Sources: Yahoo/haaretz/OcceanNEWS©2006

my2cents: the Israeli commander words are "crazy and monstrous"..
I think he is rigth.. the use of cluster and phosphorous on villages.. is crazy and monstrous.

Its sad, although I'm not the least bit suprised the jews committed such war crimes, they are after all barbaric. Its what they do. To be honest if the international community would look away they would commit genocide of the entire region. And the US would do nothing to stop it.

Interesting, you actually found an anti-semetic Israeli paper. Good for you.

Interesting, you actually found an anti-semetic Israeli paper. Good for you.

ummm, how was that story anti-semetic?

I still don't understand why this rogue state gets so much support. Them Israeli's do whatever the fuck they please, whenever the fuck they please, not caring a wee bit about international law, or just plain fucking ethics. kinda like Germany back in the 30's and early 40's.

Just evacuate all the sensible folks outta there, and let Ahmadinejad have it. Fucking nazi's.

ummm, how was that story anti-semetic?

Didn't say the article was. Good job on reading comprehension 101. The paper however has an established history of writing pro-palestinian and pro-arabic articles. If the article is true, which honestly wouldn't surprise me, that's one thing, but until I see it on a semi-reliable source I won't take it too seriously.

ummm, how was that story anti-semetic?


Some ass-wipes call everything anti-semitic which is crictical about, or even against the *state* of Israel.

I that case i qualify for being anti-semitic as well, in which case i'm also damn proud of it.

Morons.

Just evacuate all the sensible folks outta there, and let Ahmadinejad have it. Fucking nazi's.

You know, I have to say this is the first time I've seen Israel called Nazis...

Didn't say the article was. Good job on reading comprehension 101. The paper however has an established history of writing pro-palestinian and pro-arabic articles. If the article is true, which honestly wouldn't surprise me, that's one thing, but until I see it on a semi-reliable source I won't take it too seriously.


Ha'aretz is the only reliable source of news from Israel, what are you talking about?

Interesting, you actually found an anti-semetic Israeli paper. Good for you.

Riiiight. Becuase it doesn't fit your argument its 'anti-Semitic'. :rolleyes:

Riiiight. Becuase it doesn't fit your argument its 'anti-Semitic'. :rolleyes:

Considering you don't know my opinion of Israel I find that very amusing.

You know, I have to say this is the first time I've seen Israel called Nazis...


They utilise the same techniques as the real Nazi's did, so why not give them the same name? After all, if there is one people that should've learned from whatever injustice is done to them, it would be the Israeli's. Instead, they use it to justify atheir actions.

Didn't say the article was. Good job on reading comprehension 101. The paper however has an established history of writing pro-palestinian and pro-arabic articles. If the article is true, which honestly wouldn't surprise me, that's one thing, but until I see it on a semi-reliable source I won't take it too seriously.

So pro-arab now equals anti-semetic?

Is it still a civilian area after the Israelis warn the civilians to flee? The enemy was mixed in among the shiite population of South Lebanon. When the "civilians" chose to stay behind after being warned they became, in my opinion, willing human shields. If you choose to be a human shield I don't think you've got a right to complain when you get blown up.

They utilise the same techniques as the real Nazi's did, so why not give them the same name?

Er... hold on. Which techniques are we talking about here? Blitzkreigs? Concentration camps? Symbols on forheads? A charismatic leader stirring up nationalist feelings to whip the country into a war to claim all of Euro... the Middle East?

Didn't say the article was. Good job on reading comprehension 101. The paper however has an established history of writing pro-palestinian and pro-arabic articles. If the article is true, which honestly wouldn't surprise me, that's one thing, but until I see it on a semi-reliable source I won't take it too seriously.

Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that its a "pro-Arab" paper. Why would that equate to automatically being anti-semitic?

Also, what article is "anti-semitic" and how, as this is not the case in the linked example.

They utilise the same techniques as the real Nazi's did, so why not give them the same name? After all, if there is one people that should've learned from whatever injustice is done to them, it would be the Israeli's. Instead, they use it to justify atheir actions.

So the Israelis have gone on a megolomanicial campaign to dominate Europe and ethnically cleanse it of all jews?

Wow are they confused!

Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that its a "pro-Arab" paper. Why would that equate to automatically being anti-semitic?

Also, what article is "anti-semitic" and how, as this is not the case in the linked example.

Pro anything means it has a notable bias. Any bias means that everything they print must be carefully examined. As I have yet to see this story repeated anywhere else....

2+2=? At the moment I'm thinking the answer is four, but I await confirmation.

Pro anything means it has a notable bias. Any bias means that everything they print must be carefully examined. As I have yet to see this story repeated anywhere else....

2+2=? At the moment I'm thinking the answer is four, but I await confirmation.

Saying something needs to be checked for accuracy and accusing a paper of being anti-semetic are very different things mate. On is a fact applicable to every news source in the world and the other is a serious charge to level at someone.

Er... hold on. Which techniques are we talking about here? Blitzkreigs? Concentration camps? Symbols on forheads? A charismatic leader stirring up nationalist feelings to whip the country into a war to claim all of Euro... the Middle East?


Concentration camps (basically all of Gaza is one big KZ), fear, intimidation, violence at will, apartheid, ghetto's, you name it. For example, Palestinians born in the city of Jerusalem are allowed to live there, as soon as they move out of there and settle somewhere else, they get a diferent color ID card, which means they're never allowed to live in Jerusalem again. The position of the Palestininans is Israel is somewhere inbetween that of the blacks in South Africa in the 70s and 80s, and minorities in Germany in the 30's and 40's. And even their own, Mordechai Vanunu is still not allowed to talk to the press or even travel outside the country, while he should be working as dean emeritus at the University of Glasgow.

They utilise the same techniques as the real Nazi's did, so why not give them the same name? After all, if there is one people that should've learned from whatever injustice is done to them, it would be the Israeli's. Instead, they use it to justify atheir actions.

Bullshit. Real nazis took over neighboring countries and rounded up and slaughtered gypsies, homosexuals, and Jews. Real Nazis were good friends with Palestinians, or at least the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Real Nazis were obsessed with race and racial purity. Israel has GIVEN BACK land it won in war, Israel doesn't promote racism, nor does it round up and punish other ethnicities within it's borders.

So the Israelis have gone on a megolomanicial campaign to dominate Europe and ethnically cleanse it of all jews?

Wow are they confused!

Almost there. Now just use *Palestine* instead of *Europe*, and *Palestinians* instead of *Jews*.

Pro anything means it has a notable bias. Any bias means that everything they print must be carefully examined. As I have yet to see this story repeated anywhere else....

2+2=? At the moment I'm thinking the answer is four, but I await confirmation.

I'm not arguing whether its biased towards Arabs, against Arabs, or mild indifference followed by bouts of 'animal sex' on the floor. I want to know how anti-semitism comes into the equation. You brought it up, so presumably you know. Please enlighten the rest of us.

Mordechai Vanunu has however been convicted of treason, in such circumstances being free and still breathing is quite lucky, plenty of states would have killed him for it, some for less. also don't more palestinians live in the West bank and Gaza now than did 60 years ago when the israeli state was founded, thus making claims of genocide slightly ridiculous?

Concentration camps (basically all of Gaza is one big KZ), fear, intimidation, violence at will, apartheid, ghetto's, you name it. For example, Palestinians born in the city of Jerusalem are allowed to live there, as soon as they move out of there and settle somewhere else, they get a diferent color ID card, which means they're never allowed to live in Jerusalem again. The position of the Palestininans is Israel is somewhere inbetween that of the blacks in South Africa in the 70s and 80s, and minorities in Germany in the 30's and 40's. And even their own, Mordechai Vanunu is still not allowed to talk to the press or even travel outside the country, while he should be working as dean emeritus at the University of Glasgow.

You're either ignorant or just another pro-palestinian liar. There are loads of them.

Israeli citizens of Arab descent have equal rights and even sit on the Israeli Knesset.

Almost there. Now just use *Palestine* instead of *Europe*, and *Palestinians* instead of *Jews*.

Israel has enough fire power to blast Palestine off the map if they were so inclined. You cannot seriously be that fucking stupid. Occeandrive is, but we're used to him.

Almost there. Now just use *Palestine* instead of *Europe*, and *Palestinians* instead of *Jews*.

Riiiight. So you support the statements of Hexbollah leaders as well as the charters of Hamas and Hezbollah?

I'm not arguing whether its biased towards Arabs, against Arabs, or mild indifference followed by bouts of 'animal sex' on the floor. I want to know how anti-semitism comes into the equation. You brought it up, so presumably you know. Please enlighten the rest of us.

Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, which can range in expression from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution.

I'm sorry you were confused on that point yes? Does that clarify?

Bullshit. Real nazis took over neighboring countries and rounded up and slaughtered gypsies, homosexuals, and Jews. Real Nazis were good friends with Palestinians, or at least the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Real Nazis were obsessed with race and racial purity. Israel has GIVEN BACK land it won in war, Israel doesn't promote racism, nor does it round up and punish other ethnicities within it's borders.

You're saying that because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was good friends with the Nazi's, the Palestinian people should be collectively punished nowadays?

Right. Just fucking shoot everyone in a red state becasue the majority supports Bush.......

Real Israeli's are obsessed with race as well, if you're not a jew, you can forget about getting Israeli citizenship.

And if you don't think about Israel promoting racism, go have a wee look at some bordercrossing to the West Bank. You'll probably think twice before making such a statement in the future.

You're either ignorant or just another pro-palestinian liar. There are loads of them.

Israeli citizens of Arab descent have equal rights and even sit on the Israeli Knesset.

Yet are notoriously discriminated against. Or do you think that posoning Bedouin crops from the air is a normal activity?

I'm sorry you were confused on that point yes? Does that clarify?

Ok.

Now can you show why this article makes the paper anti-Semitic as you claimed?

yet there are over one million arab israeli citizens in israel. the closest estimate i have on jews in lebanon is 100, this is not a typo 100

Riiiight. So you support the statements of Hexbollah leaders as well as the charters of Hamas and Hezbollah?

I surely support some of their statements, although i don't support their organizations. Religious nuts have no place in politics. but this should count for Israel as well.

You're saying that because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was good friends with the Nazi's, the Palestinian people should be collectively punished nowadays?

Red Herring. Not what DCD said at all.

Right. Just fucking shoot everyone in a red state becasue the majority supports Bush.......

And a false analogy.

Real Israeli's are obsessed with race as well, if you're not a jew, you can forget about getting Israeli citizenship.

False. Go ahead and prove that one.

And if you don't think about Israel promoting racism, go have a wee look at some bordercrossing to the West Bank. You'll probably think twice before making such a statement in the future.

You've made the statement,now back it up w/ facts.

I surely support some of their statements, although i don't support their organizations. Religious nuts have no place in politics. but this should count for Israel as well.

Like which statements? Be specific.

Israel has enough fire power to blast Palestine off the map if they were so inclined. You cannot seriously be that fucking stupid. Occeandrive is, but we're used to him.flame.

be adviced.. Moderation will get the link in 2 minutes..

You're saying that because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was good friends with the Nazi's, the Palestinian people should be collectively punished nowadays? Nope. You're putting words in my mouth. I was just showing that the Israelis aren't anything like nazis, but in the past the palestinians did have ties with Nazi Germany. I didn't advocate collective punishment for something that happened in the 1940s.

Right. Just fucking shoot everyone in a red state becasue the majority supports Bush.......

Real Israeli's are obsessed with race as well, if you're not a jew, you can forget about getting Israeli citizenship. Really? Then why are there Israeli arab Muslims with full citizenship? Why do they have members on the Israeli Knesset?

And if you don't think about Israel promoting racism, go have a wee look at some bordercrossing to the West Bank. You'll probably think twice before making such a statement in the future.Preventing suicide bombers from entering your nation isn't racism, it's common sense.

I'm sorry you were confused on that point yes? Does that clarify?

Actually it doesnt clarify anything. If somebody, who happens to be Jewish, does wrong, then crticism of them is entirely appropriate. Should somebody express the idea that the Palestinians should - for instance - be treated according to the 4th Geneva conventionb in the occupied territories - that is not an anti-semitic remark.
Thats the kibd of thing Ha'aretz comes out with, as far as I know. If you have examples of it producing "anti-semetic" comment, please give examples.

Mordechai Vanunu has however been convicted of treason, in such circumstances being free and still breathing is quite lucky, plenty of states would have killed him for it, some for less. also don't more palestinians live in the West bank and Gaza now than did 60 years ago when the israeli state was founded, thus making claims of genocide slightly ridiculous?

Mordechai Vanunu is a freaking hero. Imagine some nuclear scientist giving full details of the Iranian program to the EU, and it comes out that Ahmadinejad is only 5 months away from obtaining a thermonuclear device, instead of 5 years. You would also think that scientist should be convicted for treason?

Israel was clearly breaking international law with their nuke program, and Vanunu exposed it. He deserves a medal of honor for that.

I hate taking a moderate view, but Ha'aretz is not an anti-semitic newspaper. They *ARE* more critical of the state then necessary, and *very* left leaning, but that does not make them anti-semitic.

It is necessary to to verify anything printed in Ha'aretz, as they have a history of leaving out important details, just to be more critical, though. Is it realistic that such a bombing took place, yes, it could have happened. Is it possible there is a further explanation to it, perhaps even a valid justification - I'd say that that was likely, knowing Israel's recent military history in as much detail as I do.

Ha'aretz is to the Israeli left as Fox News is to the American right. Neither *lies* outright, but they express a very fucking screwed up view of what is going on in teh world, and while they have some value, you can't just take them at their word.

The commander asserted that there was massive use of MLRS rockets despite the fact that they are known to be very inaccurate - the rockets' deviation from the target reaches to around 1,200 meters
*gasps* Oh no, the terrible Israelis. Ignore the fact that Katyusha rockets are usually used to saturate a target in a twenty thousand metre radius, why don't you?

Yet are notoriously discriminated against. Or do you think that posoning Bedouin crops from the air is a normal activity?

Funny, if Bedouins are so discriminated against, if attrocities are committed against them, why do they routinely serve in the IDF? I think you're full of shit, dude.

Actually it doesnt clarify anything. If somebody, who happens to be Jewish, does wrong, then crticism of them is entirely appropriate. Should somebody express the idea that the Palestinians should - for instance - be treated according to the 4th Geneva conventionb in the occupied territories - that is not an anti-semitic remark.
Thats the kibd of thing Ha'aretz comes out with, as far as I know. If you have examples of it producing "anti-semetic" comment, please give examples.

And please bear in mind that anti-Israeli comment don't count as anti-semetism, Israeli is a nationality not a racial or religious group.

Mordechai Vanunu is a freaking hero. Imagine some nuclear scientist giving full details of the Iranian program to the EU, and it comes out that Ahmadinejad is only 5 months away from obtaining a thermonuclear device, instead of 5 years. You would also think that scientist should be convicted for treason?

Israel was clearly breaking international law with their nuke program, and Vanunu exposed it. He deserves a medal of honor for that.

It was breaking international law? Really? Which one?

flame.

be adviced.. Moderation will get the link in 2 minutes..

wow, so now you are going to tattle on people when they vehemently disagree with you? make sure you tell on me too, because I think you ideology is fricking ignorant as well.

imagine an american scientist giving nuclear secrets to the russians during the cold war, he'd probably have been hung too, wether or not his actions are morally right or wrong, he broke the law and broke his word.

*gasps* Oh no, the terrible Israelis. Ignore the fact that Katyusha rockets are usually used to saturate a target in a twenty thousand metre radius, why don't you?

He will. He'll also not be able to show how the weapons were "illegal".

Nope. You're putting words in my mouth. I was just showing that the Israelis aren't anything like nazis, but in the past the palestinians did have ties with Nazi Germany. I didn't advocate collective punishment for something that happened in the 1940s. Really? Then why are there Israeli arab Muslims with full citizenship? Why do they have members on the Israeli Knesset?

Because they couldn't strip citizenship away from people living their all their lives. They've tried it, and managed to get 60% or so out, but they were drawing too much attention, so they opted to give the remaining arabs citizenship.

And if you don't think about Israel promoting racism, go have a wee look at some bordercrossing to the West Bank. You'll probably think twice before making such a statement in the future.[/QUOTE]Preventing suicide bombers from entering your nation isn't racism, it's common sense.[/QUOTE]

Every Palestinian is a suicide bomber? Right... Besides that, what has making a pregnant woman on her way to the hospital wait for 5 hours to do with preventing suicide bombers?

Mordechai Vanunu is a freaking hero. Imagine some nuclear scientist giving full details of the Iranian program to the EU, and it comes out that Ahmadinejad is only 5 months away from obtaining a thermonuclear device, instead of 5 years. You would also think that scientist should be convicted for treason?

Israel was clearly breaking international law with their nuke program, and Vanunu exposed it. He deserves a medal of honor for that.

Israel has never signed the NPT to my knowledge. What laws do their nuclear weapons break?

imagine an american scientist giving nuclear secrets to the russians during the cold war, he'd probably have been hung too, wether or not his actions are morally right or wrong, he broke the law and broke his word.

So, if an Iranian nuclear whistleblower 'outed' his country's programme to the West... you'd be happy to see him swing?

Because they couldn't strip citizenship away from people living their all their lives. They've tried it, and managed to get 60% or so out, but they were drawing too much attention, so they opted to give the remaining arabs citizenship.

And if you don't think about Israel promoting racism, go have a wee look at some bordercrossing to the West Bank. You'll probably think twice before making such a statement in the future.Preventing suicide bombers from entering your nation isn't racism, it's common sense.[/QUOTE]

Every Palestinian is a suicide bomber? Right... Besides that, what has making a pregnant woman on her way to the hospital wait for 5 hours to do with preventing suicide bombers?[/QUOTE]

You still haven't provided evidence. So far, pretty much every statement you've made has been factually incorrect.

I have yet to find any corroboration on the Internet. Every article about this merely quotes the haaretz article and since that article is based on an anonymous source, this story must be taken on the word of the reporter.

I am tempted to believe it, simply due to the human capability of commiting atrocities, but this would not stand up in court.

And please bear in mind that anti-Israeli comment don't count as anti-semetism, Israeli is a nationality not a racial or religious group.

and israel is composed of mainly what? Semites. Jews and Arabs that is. So technically speaking, being against Israel, against Israels, whom are mostly semitic, is being anti-semetic.

Sem‧ite  /ˈsɛmaɪt or, especially Brit., ˈsimaɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sem-ahyt or, especially Brit., see-mahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.
2. a Jew.
3. a member of any of the peoples descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.

i wouldn't challenge the iranians right to do so. however since the have signed the NPT its a different case. since i assume the UK or the US doesn't have an extradition agreement with Iran once that iranian whistleblower is in my country i wouldn't let him go back.

Funny, if Bedouins are so discriminated against, if attrocities are committed against them, why do they routinely serve in the IDF? I think you're full of shit, dude.

O no!!!!!!!!! The man who wants to force-feed pork to the muslims and desecrate their corpses thinks I'm full of shit!!!!!!!!

By the way -

"Denying recognition to dozens of villages, withholding basic services from tens of thousands of citizens, issuing home demolition orders, poisoning the fields by spraying chemicals from the air, and repeated harassment by the “Green Patrol” of the Ministry of the Interior, all serve one single purpose - to make this population abandon its land and force it into the towns. Even so, in recent years, the residents have held on to their land much more persistently, and some young families are even leaving the towns and returning to their own land. "

http://www.labournet.net/other/0305/bedouin1.html

and israel is composed of mainly what? Semites. Jews and Arabs that is. So technically speaking, being against Israel, against Israels, whom are mostly semitic, is being anti-semetic.

I'm just using the definition of anti-semite Khadgar provided before.

wow, so now you are going to tattle on people when they vehemently disagree with you? he has to learn to "vehemently disagree with me" without flaming me.

and If you want to make it there too.. all you need is to post something like this:
Israel has enough fire power to blast Palestine off the map if they were so inclined. You cannot seriously be that fucking stupid. Occeandrive is, but we're used to him...and make sure I see it.
good luck Zilam.

Preventing suicide bombers from entering your nation isn't racism, it's common sense.

Every Palestinian is a suicide bomber? Right... Besides that, what has making a pregnant woman on her way to the hospital wait for 5 hours to do with preventing suicide bombers?[/QUOTE]

You still haven't provided evidence. So far, pretty much every statement you've made has been factually incorrect.[/QUOTE]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/w_bank_checkpoints/html/waiting_area.stm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality

Why does everyone hate the Jews? I hate it when people refer to israel as "The Jews". While it is a predominantly Jewish state, I never hear people refer to USA as "The Christians". I am perfectly happy when whoever it was called the Israelis Nazis, if you ask me (My mother was born in Tiberius) They are, but it is anti-semetic to call them The Jews.

Thank you.

and israel is composed of mainly what? Semites. Jews and Arabs that is. So technically speaking, being against Israel, against Israels, whom are mostly semitic, is being anti-semetic.

Criticising Israeli policies =/= Anti-Semitism

And to say otherwise stifles debate which is frowned upon by the Mods.

and israel is composed of mainly what? Semites. Jews and Arabs that is. So technically speaking, being against Israel, against Israels, whom are mostly semitic, is being anti-semetic.

Wow, are you anti-Israel and anti-jewish so you say stupid shit to make us look bad??? Is that what you are doing?

It is possible to be critical of the state of Israel without being anti-semitic. One does have to be very careful, as it is a VERY thin line, but CRITICISM is not hate. Hell, look at Ha'aretz newspaper. They are VERY critical, perhaps overly so, but at the same time, the fact that they exercise such criticism is part of what MAINTAINS THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC VALUES that are Israels strongest support.

Although, I do find it very Hutzpatic for any Woman, or Homosexual of either sex, who makes that aspect of themselves a big issue in their lives to criticize Israel... the only middle east nation where Women have full and equal rights, and the country with the worlds 2nd largest gay pride parade, in a part of the world where gay men and women are brutally savaged on discovery.

Funny, if Bedouins are so discriminated against, if attrocities are committed against them, why do they routinely serve in the IDF? I think you're full of shit, dude.

For an answer to that you'd have to ask either them, or someone like the "Tuskagee Airmen".

Because they couldn't strip citizenship away from people living their all their lives. They've tried it, and managed to get 60% or so out, but they were drawing too much attention, so they opted to give the remaining arabs citizenship.

And if you don't think about Israel promoting racism, go have a wee look at some bordercrossing to the West Bank. You'll probably think twice before making such a statement in the future.Preventing suicide bombers from entering your nation isn't racism, it's common sense.

Every Palestinian is a suicide bomber? Right... Besides that, what has making a pregnant woman on her way to the hospital wait for 5 hours to do with preventing suicide bombers?
No, not all palestinians are suicide bombers, but plenty of them
Which pregnant woman might that be? The one who gave birth in a hopital and who's husband and doctor are seen in the following documentary being coached to lie on camera and say she gave birth on the way?
You can find the facts on the documentary Pallywood.

O no!!!!!!!!! The man who wants to force-feed pork to the muslims and desecrate their corpses thinks I'm full of shit!!!!!!!! I'm fine with doing that to TERRORISTS. Not to ordinary muslims. More lies from you.

By the way -

"Denying recognition to dozens of villages, withholding basic services from tens of thousands of citizens, issuing home demolition orders, poisoning the fields by spraying chemicals from the air, and repeated harassment by the “Green Patrol” of the Ministry of the Interior, all serve one single purpose - to make this population abandon its land and force it into the towns. Even so, in recent years, the residents have held on to their land much more persistently, and some young families are even leaving the towns and returning to their own land. "

http://www.labournet.net/other/0305/bedouin1.html

not all palestinians are terrorists (in fact nearly all palestininans are not terrorists) but all the terrorists actually trying to cross the borders are palestinians. so which borders do you tighten security at?

If Israel has "given" back the land to the Palestinians, why do they do this? Shouldn't that be a "Palestinian" issue?


http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=13&id=1326572006

http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=2/a/viii/130920062

The IDF confirmed that its use during the war in Lebanon of the Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS), otherwise known as cluster bombs, was within international law, the IDF’s spokesman’s office said on Tuesday, 12 September 2006.

The IDF's response. About what you'd expect. The speed with which they confirmed the legality of it all is somewhat suspect. On the other hand, one could argue that they can easily confirm it because they were careful to always act within international law during the war.

Yet another moment when both parties cry 'war crime' at the other.

The IDF's response. About what you'd expect. The speed with which they confirmed the legality of it all is somewhat suspect.
Nah, thats the way the IDF do things. Issue a blanket denial immediately, then back track if an investigation turns up something else.

The weapons they used weren't illegal, however the way they used them may have been.

Why does everyone hate the Jews? I hate it when people refer to israel as "The Jews". While it is a predominantly Jewish state, I never hear people refer to USA as "The Christians". I am perfectly happy when whoever it was called the Israelis Nazis, if you ask me (My mother was born in Tiberius) They are, but it is anti-semetic to call them The Jews.

Thank you.


I alsways make sure i refer to them as "The Israeli's".

Friends of mine, who study on the University of Dundee have been to the West Bank for some program, sponsored by the City and University of Dundee, and have seen israeli's doing really horrendous stuff (especially IDF), but where also involved with Israeli peace groups.

he has to learn to "vehemently disagree with me" without flaming me.

and If you want to make it there too.. all you need is to post something like this:
..and make sure I see it.
good luck Zilam.

Yes I'm absolutely horrified, the mods are gonna spank me because I called you stupid. :rolleyes:

They utilise the same techniques as the real Nazi's did, so why not give them the same name? After all, if there is one people that should've learned from whatever injustice is done to them, it would be the Israeli's. Instead, they use it to justify atheir actions.

Well, the Palestinians are collectively lumped in a large ghetto called The Occupied Territories for one. Even before the United States decided to collectively punish them because Fatah was so fucking corrupt and nepotistic to where the people actually thought Hamas was a fresh alternative the Israelis have been blocking passage of Palestinians from the West Bank who wanted to go to work or sell their produce.

It's no secret that while Israel hasn't gone to the extent of forcing Identification Patches on the Palestinians (not that it's really needed with the brown people mind you) or setting up "work camps" it's no secret that it's an apartheid state.

Even Archbishop Desmond Tutu calls Israel an apartheid state. And anyone who thinks Archbishop Tutu of all people has no idea of what apartheid is like is smoking some heavy shit:

Tutu condemns Israeli 'apartheid'
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1957644.stm)

But it seems the informal policy is "Never Again" doesn't apply to brown people.

I alsways make sure i refer to them as "The Israeli's".

Friends of mine, who study on the University of Dundee have been to the West Bank for some program, sponsored by the City and University of Dundee, and have seen israeli's doing really horrendous stuff (especially IDF), but where also involved with Israeli peace groups.

*I* - not friends of mine - have toured the west bank, and I've been to Gaza. There is a difference between "what the Israeli's do to them" and the living conditions they have because of their own leadership.

Yassir Arrafat collected BILLIONS of dollars in "aide" and "charity," and used it to wage an underground war, while making soft cooing noises to confuse the Liberals of the world.

THE WHOLE WESTERN WORLD as well as the nonwester Arab world supplied several fortunes to improve the life of teh Palestinians, and yet teh Palestinian Authority refuses to do such simple things as build hospitals, rodes, powerlines, libraries, etc. INFRASTRUCTURE could help people, but instead, the PA would put a gun to a village mayors head and say "you and your family are next if you cooperate with teh Israelis in the settlement right next to you to build a hospital."

What's this? A story about two towns, one Israeli and one Palestinian, who WANTED to cooperate with each other, but a dictator said no... people being people and dictators being evil... no, that couldn't be right... that makes NO sense... oh, wait a second - IT DOES MAKE SENSE, and IT IS A REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE.

Yes I'm absolutely horrified, the mods are gonna spank me because I called you stupid. :rolleyes:they cant spank you.. but if you give me your momma phone number.. I could give it a try.. and ask her to show you not to dis-respect others.

well Strathcarlie, after research i can't be sure but the town of bireh where the man they quote comes from looks to be inside the big wall the israelis are building which will be why they are involved.

as for the reverend, i find it intresting that he finds roadblocks and checkpoints abhorrent and also insists on secure borders. how should borders be secured? with roadblocks and checkpoints, quite the conundrum.

wow, so now you are going to tattle on people when they vehemently disagree with you? make sure you tell on me too...Zilam, if you want to "team" with Khadgar..
All you need to do.. is to post something like this:
Yes I'm absolutely horrified, the mods are gonna spank me because I called you stupid. :rolleyes:

But it seems the informal policy is "Never Again" doesn't apply to brown people.

Never does.

Its sad, although I'm not the least bit suprised the jews committed such war crimes, they are after all barbaric. Its what they do. To be honest if the international community would look away they would commit genocide of the entire region. And the US would do nothing to stop it.

wow! it took all of one post to jump to the jews-are-barbaric! i'm not totally with it, but I thought it usually took a few more posts. And anyways, if you want to devolve to stereotypes and other stupidities, remember that jews actually hold all the money in the world, on account of every single one being a lawyer or a doctor, and having a diamond cutter for an uncle (never met anyone with one for a father though!).

To wit: judaism is a culture, israelis are a people. Nature or nurture... unless you believe that judaism is passed genetically, you'll be forced to agree that this activity is a product of Nurture, and therefore it is israelis that do this. On top of this, it is SOME israelis, unless you also accept that all palestinians are suicide bombers.

EDIT: and anyways, if it was genetic, what Jene would make us all barbaric? Some mutation of the morality gene perhaps? Your attitude incenses me.

...
Even Archbishop Desmond Tutu calls Israel an apartheid state. And anyone who thinks Archbishop Tutu of all people has no idea of what apartheid is like is smoking some heavy shit:

Tutu condemns Israeli 'apartheid'
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1957644.stm)

But it seems the informal policy is "Never Again" doesn't apply to brown people.

The UN has passes about a thousand resolutions the relate directly to Israel. (You can confirm that on Wikipedia, look up 'UN resolution Israel') I challenge you to find another part of the world where they have passed even half that many. The UN is overly concerned with Israel, to the detriment of their own name, and the rest of the world.

MLRS is not an average miss distance of 1200 meters. That is the old system.

The accuracy is around 3 mil, or 150 meters at 49 kilometers. The accuracy increases as the range is reduced. Essentially, you're going to put the pattern of bomblets right on target the first time.

Much better than the Katushyas and other crap that Hezbollah was firing.

Considering that the Israelis made wide use of UAVs for spotting targets and directing fire, you're going to hit a target within a minute or two of spotting it.

It's designed to catch infantry and soft-skinned vehicles like rocket launchers in the open, before they can react to being spotted and get under cover.

Maybe Hezbollah shouldn't fire rockets from inside villages. According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, Hezbollah is violating the conventions by firing from civilian areas, and cannot presume to be immune from any attack of any kind.

ummm, how was that story anti-semetic?

Because anything critisizing Israel is biased against all Jews, didn't you know that?

wow! it took all of one post to jump to the jews-are-barbaric! i'm not totally with it, but I thought it usually took a few more posts. And anyways, if you want to devolve to stereotypes and other stupidities, remember that jews actually hold all the money in the world, on account of every single one being a lawyer or a doctor, and having a diamond cutter for an uncle (never met anyone with one for a father though!).

To wit: judaism is a culture, israelis are a people. Nature or nurture... unless you believe that judaism is passed genetically, you'll be forced to agree that this activity is a product of Nurture, and therefore it is israelis that do this. On top of this, it is SOME israelis, unless you also accept that all palestinians are suicide bombers.

EDIT: and anyways, if it was genetic, what Jene would make us all barbaric? Some mutation of the morality gene perhaps? Your attitude incenses me.
Ok fine, the Israelis are barbaric. happy now

Because anything critisizing Israel is biased against all Jews, didn't you know that?

We delt with this pages ago... catch up.

Because anything critisizing Israel is biased against all Jews, didn't you know that?

Actually, if you've looked at Ocean Drive's posts in the past, he's extremely anti-semitic, and only posts anti-Israel, anti-Jewish threads.

He also is in the habit of going back later and editing out his more virulent anti-semitic comments, such as calling other posters "jew-lover".

I have to be quick to quote him because he edits out the virulent stuff pretty quickly.

His forum name is a play on a famous Jewish neighborhood in the US, where a lot of rich Jews live.

Is it still a civilian area after the Israelis warn the civilians to flee? The enemy was mixed in among the shiite population of South Lebanon. When the "civilians" chose to stay behind after being warned they became, in my opinion, willing human shields. If you choose to be a human shield I don't think you've got a right to complain when you get blown up.

So if an other country informed everyone in the us that they had a week to flee to either Canada or Mexico before they began bombing the shit out of everyone who remained what would you do?

Every Palestinian is a suicide bomber? Right... Besides that, what has making a pregnant woman on her way to the hospital wait for 5 hours to do with preventing suicide bombers?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/w_bank_checkpoints/html/waiting_area.stm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality

So you've just shown that ISreal follows pretty standard border policies. It must be genocide. :rolleyes:

So if an other country informed everyone in the us that they had a week to flee to either Canada or Mexico before they began bombing the shit out of everyone who remained what would you do?

Shoot the people setting up the rocket launcher next to my house.

Actually, if you've looked at Ocean Drive's posts in the past, he's extremely anti-semitic, and only posts anti-Israel, anti-Jewish threads.

He also is in the habit of going back later and editing out his more virulent anti-semitic comments, such as calling other posters "jew-lover".

I have to be quick to quote him because he edits out the virulent stuff pretty quickly.

His forum name is a play on a famous Jewish neighborhood in the US, where a lot of rich Jews live.
so? what does him not being a jew lover have to do with this post, which is not anti-semitic at all?

I'm sorry you were confused on that point yes? Does that clarify?

Everyone here know what it means, but many of us don't know how it comes into the equasion when you refer to the paper in question, so either put up some evidence that the paper is anti-semetic or stfu.

Yes I'm absolutely horrified, the mods are gonna spank me because I called you stupid. :rolleyes:
Yes. Call his ideas and positions stupid, not him. Good manners are a good thing.

Just wanted to make some points clear.

1) Strathcarlie is talking bullshit (sorry for using such a "strong" word) ;)
Most of what he's been saying is pure lies, disinformation, misinformation or anti-Israeli propoganda that has no base of facts to rely on.

2) Israel never signed any international agreement about nuclear weapons and they are allowed building and having those weapons. Unlike Iran who are a threat to many countries, Israel isn't threating anyone and they are never going to use these weapons to attack.

3) Arabs/Muslims, Christians, Jews - they are all equal citizens in Israel. They all have same ID/Passport, same rules apply to them all (except that Arabs don't have to serve in the IDF if they don't want to) and they all are entitled to same rights and priviliges.

4) There are people who live in the West Bank who had a "red" Passport, meaning that they are not citizens of Israel but live in an area that Israel has security forces there. These people also have right, and they are the subject of the PA actually and will be part of PA as soon as the peace treaties will be signed. This land, by the way, was "occupied" (subjected) by Israel during a war when Jordanian (and Palestinian, not that there was a "Palenstinian" nation before '67) army attacked Israel from that area. This is a legitimate area that Israel hold, but are willing to give back if peace is agreed upon (and trust me, Israel DO want the peace!)

5) Of course Israel has to check every person that passes through a checkpoint between the PA and Israel because there are hundreds of Terror threats daily and every person must be checked to make sure they are not terrorists. It is unfortunate that some innocent people have to wait and suffer because of their rulers and the militias that live amongst them.

6) About the article, Cluster bombs and MLRS;
The source is unreliable. Ha'Aretz is a very left-winged newspaper and it isn't objective with its articles and reporters.
MLRS is an Artillery unit, it is not a Cluster-Bomb-shooter or whatever. The accuracy of MLRS isn't as bad as some has described, especially the modern units. It is also the rocket type itself that is responsible for the accuracy. I know people who deal with MLRS so I have a pretty reliable sources, if you mind.
Shooting cluster-bombs on populated areas is illegal by international law but Israel WAS NOT shooting them on populated areas. They were probably shooting some over towns but only after the poplation was evicted and the targets were Hizbollah.

-----

Anyway, please, Strathcarlie, stop spreading lies. Talk facts. I know that Israel isn't a white angel that does nothing but good for everybody, but they aren't extremists (especially not religious extremist), they don't want to kill arabs, they don't care about muslims and arabs living in Israel as long as they are loyal citizens such as any other and not cooperating with Hamas/Jihad/Hizbollah/Fatah/etc.

so? what does him not being a jew lover have to do with this post, which is not anti-semitic at all?

Just pointing out that OceanDrive is an anti-Semite. Posting anti-Israel threads.

The thread may not be anti-Semitic, but Ocean's intent surely is.

So if an other country informed everyone in the us that they had a week to flee to either Canada or Mexico before they began bombing the shit out of everyone who remained what would you do?

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a noncombatant if I stayed. I might hang out and try to kill a couple of their troops if they invade after the bombing.

i was going to post, but when a thread on isreal already has "jews are barbaric" by the second post & "anti-semitic" by the third there does not seem much point

Just pointing out that OceanDrive is an anti-Semite. Posting anti-Israel threads.

The thread may not be anti-Semitic, but Ocean's intent surely is.

funny how you look down upon those who say anything bad about the jews yet you make about 10 anti-arab/muslim threads a day.

funny how you look down upon those who say anything bad about the jews yet you make about 10 anti-arab/muslim threads a day.

Anti-militant Islam. There's a difference.

Ok fine, the Israelis are barbaric. happy now

i'll be happy when you say that your opinion is from personal experience of having met a sizable sample of Israelis, have lived in Israel, or have lived in a region under Israeli influence. Otherwise you're a cultural barbarian, invading these forums with your gothic notions.

couldn't think of a better word than gothic...

MLRS ordinance can fire cluster bomb warheads though

The standard M26 warhead for the MLRS contains 644 M77 individual submunitions (also called dual-purpose grenades). According to a Department of Defense report submitted to the U.S. Congress in February 2000, these submunitions have a failure rate of 16 percent. Thus, the typical volley of twelve MLRS rockets would likely result in more than 1,200 dud submunitions scattered randomly in a 120,000 to 240,000 square meter impact area.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/consequences/2003/0401cluster.htm

...
Maybe Hezbollah shouldn't fire rockets from inside villages. According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, Hezbollah is violating the conventions by firing from civilian areas, and cannot presume to be immune from any attack of any kind.

Actually, today I read that even those Israel-haters Amnesty International, to my surprise have said that Hizbollah violated the himanitarian law during the war by intentionally targeting civilians. Haven't heard anything about them using Lebanese as Human Shields though (I am not surprised though if AI hasn't made any reference to this).

Besides, what the hell do they expect? It's a f***ing war! Of course civilians would be killed, especially if the militias are operating from between buildings in real towns where people actually live!
I didn't hear Israel complaining too much to international bodies about Hizbollah hitting Israeli towns, hospitals, civilian factories, destroying vast amounts of natural forests in the north of the country and so on. Hizbollah (and Segnora [or Señora or however his name is actually spelled]) are trying to use any mean to find Israel guilty in as much things as they can find (or make up).

MLRS ordinance can fire cluster bomb warheads though

The standard M26 warhead for the MLRS contains 644 M77 individual submunitions (also called dual-purpose grenades). According to a Department of Defense report submitted to the U.S. Congress in February 2000, these submunitions have a failure rate of 16 percent. Thus, the typical volley of twelve MLRS rockets would likely result in more than 1,200 dud submunitions scattered randomly in a 120,000 to 240,000 square meter impact area.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/consequences/2003/0401cluster.htm

Those are the older model rockets.

The newer model rockets have a miss distance of 150 meters at 49 kilometers, are still cluster munitions, but have a dud rate of 1.6 percent.

You also don't have to fire as many rockets (a sixfold decrease) in order to hit an area target.

Anti-militant Islam. There's a difference.

I didn't know you could develop a virus that only sterilizes Militant Muslims.

:rolleyes:

Anti-militant Islam. There's a difference.
Ocean Drive merely makes threads about anti-militant judaism and occupation. No difference.

Actually, if you've looked at Ocean Drive's posts in the past, he's extremely anti-semitic, and only posts anti-Israel, anti-Jewish threads.


I was refering to coments about the news paper quoted not Ocean Drive. Nice bait and switch DK.

MLRS ordinance can fire cluster bomb warheads though

It can, but it doesn't mean that all the rockets that the Israelis fired from MLRS units (not to mention that they used many other units as well) had cluster bombs.

I was refering to coments about the news paper quoted not Ocean Drive. Nice bait and switch DK.

I'm not doing bait and switch.

If you bother to read all my posts, you'll find that I consider the article fine. It's Ocean who is anti-Semitic.

So if an other country informed everyone in the us that they had a week to flee to either Canada or Mexico before they began bombing the shit out of everyone who remained what would you do?

Wow, that makes a LOT of sence... a few dozen people are asked to take their kids and run, because there are guys with rockets hiding from other guys with rockets... that's the same as displacing 300 million people... GOOD comparison.

Edit: ... and, BTW, I would run as fast as I could. I would also bitch about it later, but I would take my family and get the fuck out.

i'll be happy when you say that your opinion is from personal experience of having met a sizable sample of Israelis, have lived in Israel, or have lived in a region under Israeli influence. Otherwise you're a cultural barbarian, invading these forums with your gothic notions.

couldn't think of a better word than gothic...
I wish you'd keep your anti-gothic opinions to yourself, you emo you.

It can, but it doesn't mean that all the rockets that the Israelis fired from MLRS units (not to mention that they used many other units as well) had cluster bombs.

agreed, i was merely attempting to refute the point that such weapons could not be used that was made earlier, israeli armed forces infact use the older M26 warheads http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0C15FD3D5A0C728DDDA10894DE404482

a better word might be Medieval

Didn't say the article was. Good job on reading comprehension 101. The paper however has an established history of writing pro-palestinian and pro-arabic articles. If the article is true, which honestly wouldn't surprise me, that's one thing, but until I see it on a semi-reliable source I won't take it too seriously.

Haaretz!!!?? anti-semitic??!!!

Anti-militant Islam. There's a difference.
You gotta be kidding? You have continuosly spouted about eliminating EVERY Muslim (man, woman, and child). You have talked about sterilizing the Muslims out of existence. You certainly cannot lay claim to the moral high ground.

You have zero credibility.

You gotta be kidding? You have continuosly spouted about eliminating EVERY Muslim (man, woman, and child). You have talked about sterilizing the Muslims out of existence. You certainly cannot lay claim to the moral high ground.

You have zero credibility.

You have to be kidding. I mentioned it as a hypothetical technical solution.

Really, you need to read more of my posts before you kneejerk.

I didn't know you could develop a virus that only sterilizes Militant Muslims.

:rolleyes:
You didn't know? It is a Trojan virus that comes in wooden horses. :p

You have to be kidding. I mentioned it as a hypothetical technical solution.

Really, you need to read more of my posts before you kneejerk.
I have read too many of your posts and that is the problem. Your constant anti-Muslim bleating is incessant. There was no kneejerk response.

Whether it is hypothetical or not is irrelevant, you constantly advocate the destruction of all Muslims, and that is relevant.

You created your own cesspool and you get to waddle in it.

I have read too many of your posts and that is the problem. Your constant anti-(militant) Muslim bleating is incessant.


Corrected.

There is an international criminal court for scum like milosevic and halutz.

There is an international criminal court for scum like milosevic and halutz.

Don't forget Nasrallah. Or Ahmadinejad for arming and paying for Hezbollah to rocket urban areas in Israel. Or Assad.

Boy, we're going to need a lot of rope...

Don't forget Nasrallah. Or Ahmadinejad for arming and paying for Hezbollah to rocket urban areas in Israel. Or Assad.

Boy, we're going to need a lot of rope...

They are far from war criminals.

There is an international criminal court for scum like milosevic and halutz.

I don't know, Dan Halutz is the chielf of staff of IDF. International Criminal Court against him would be same as saying that... Hmm... Fuad Siniora, for housing the Hizbollah.
That's quite absurd.

They are far from war criminals.

Really? Firing rockets into urban areas in Israel is a "war crime" according to Amnesty International.

Rockets made in Syria and Iran, supplied gratis, and training supplied gratis, and the order to fire from Nasrallah.

I have read too many of your posts and that is the problem. Your constant anti-militant Muslim bleating is incessant.
Corrected.there is a moderation ruling about this.
It says if you cant resist the urge to "make-over" some-one-else's quotes.. you must use the () tags.

They are far from war criminals.

And how is Halutz a war criminal?
There was a war between a sovereign country (read: Israel) and an organization (read: Hizbollah) that wants to destroy that country. The country has defended itself against the attacks that started by the organization.

Milošević is a total different story with a lot of allegations of massacres and etc.

I don't know, Dan Halutz is the chielf of staff of IDF. International Criminal Court against him would be same as saying that... Hmm... Fuad Siniora, for housing the Hizbollah.
That's quite absurd.

Rank in government and military didn't save halutz's colleagues in the third reich or his colleagues from Bosnia.

Rank in government and military didn't save halutz's colleagues in the third reich or his colleagues from Bosnia.

Why are you comparing colours to smells?

I don't remember Haluz shooting people because of their ethnicity.
You confuse WAR AGAINST ARMED FORCES AS SELF-DEFENSE with GENOCIDE BASED ON RACE OR FAITH.
If anyone can be compared to Milošević or Hitler and co., are the extremist terror organizations that want to wipe Israel off the map and kill the jews.

NSGS NEWEST SPAMMING TROLL

Slobodan Halutz's campaign of illegal, indiscriminate attacks on civilians with cluster munitions &c = war crime.

one: his name is dan halutz

two: innocent till proven guilty

three: leaflet distribution and a low death toll indicates that his attacks cannot be labelled as indiscriminate, especially since he is not nessecarily responsible for the use of these munitions, he could have issued a outright ban on there use but theres no legal obligation too. there is no evidence that he has been targeting civilians deliberately.

Almost there. Now just use *Palestine* instead of *Europe*, and *Palestinians* instead of *Jews*.

If Israel wanted to kill all the Southern Syrians they would have been done by the 80s.

Corrected.
Your correction is errant.

Quoted for truth:

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11666700&postcount=112

Hence the technical hypothesis that unless you kill every man, woman, and child living there, you won't be rid of them.
There is certainly not a "militant Muslim" qualifier for that statement. You have many others but that one should suffice.

Your correction is errant.

Quoted for truth:

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11666700&postcount=112


There is certainly not a "militant Muslim" qualifier for that statement. You have many others but that one should suffice.

Watch out CH! Now Kimchi's going to point at you and shriek "DHIMMI!!" like a good Pod Person.

I'm fine with doing that to TERRORISTS. Not to ordinary muslims. More lies from you.

A case of mistaken identity. It was designateddickhead. My humble apologies.

Slobodan Halutz's campaign of illegal, indiscriminate attacks on civilians with cluster munitions &c = war crime.

Ahh, I understand... Giving facts, opinions or explaining why you aren't right by your examples means I am a troll. Well, I am so sorry for stating my mind, maybe this public forum isn't the right place for me, pfff. Sorry that I see things in a non one-sided way without blind hatred to a side without caring about anything else.

And Cluster bombs WERE NOT used on POPULATED AREAS but to hit Hizbollah MILITANTS/TERRORISTS/ZEALOTS/whatever.
But yeah, whatever, I don't expect you to understand. I wonder what would you do in Israel's stead.

Anti-militant Islam. There's a difference.

You post about anything that pops into your little head connected in some way with muslims and call it taking a snipe at "militant Islam". I say bollocks.

Just pointing out that OceanDrive is an anti-Semite. Posting anti-Israel threads.

The thread may not be anti-Semitic, but Ocean's intent surely is.
GRRRRR!

The two are two very, very seperate issues.

Anti-semitism and anti-Israel are two astonishingly different things.

"Every Jew in the world should be gassed to death" would be anti-Semitic.

"The state of Israel has little reason to exist, and has done some truly awful things since its creation" is an anti-Israeli comment.

Do you see the difference now?

One is very much against Jews (although Arabs are a semitic people, so DesignatedMarksman et al could also be branded anti-Semitic) whereas one is against Israel.

If a comment like "Israel has little reason to exist, Jews are a bunch of cunts and it's all a Zionist conspiracy" is anti-Semitic, due to Jews being specifically targetted and insulted, which is completely out of order, whereas "Israel was sadly created due to Jewish pressure" is only anti-Israeli, due to the Israeli Jews being stated as the reason that Israel was created, which is correct, and should not be taken offensively because of this.

OK?

The blurring of the two by people looking for any excuse to rag on people who they don't particularly like due to their political leanings to the extent in which, for example, most leftists can't say a bloody thing against Israel is astonishingly innappropriate, and dumbs down the true context of "anti-Semitic", it'd be better to keep the two very much seperate issues, and not intertwine the two.

Well, I'm proud of Isreal for standing their ground. And it doesn't surprise me none how the media and some other nations condemn the US and Isreal. Its a fact when you become #1 such as America you can expect to have others envy you, want your money, but looks forward to your fall. I find it kind of amusing how it seems that the US and Isreal are condemned more than Al-queda and other known terrorist organizations. It's also funny how the UN thinks you can sit these viruses more know as terrorists at a table and talk to them and pass resolution after resolution after resolution if all resolutions fail to get their attention what the hell lets pass another resolution. Very amusing indeed.

Just pointing out that OceanDrive is an anti-Semite.

And you aren't?

Ahh, I understand... Giving facts, opinions or explaining why you aren't right by your examples means I am a troll. Well, I am so sorry for stating my mind, maybe this public forum isn't the right place for me, pfff. Sorry that I see things in a non one-sided way without blind hatred to a side without caring about anything else.

And Cluster bombs WERE NOT used on POPULATED AREAS but to hit Hizbollah MILITANTS/TERRORISTS/ZEALOTS/whatever.
But yeah, whatever, I don't expect you to understand. I wonder what would you do in Israel's stead.
OK - two things -

1) Stop the self-pity and try and think about why people said you were a troll before lashing out at the community, it was something of a six of one and half a dozen of the other issue.

2) Cluster bombs most certainly were used on populated areas, the UNIFIL forces trying to sort out the problem are having a bitch of a time sorting the issue out.

Hizbollah fighters were also not "terrorists" or "zealots", they're more of a militia set up to protect Lebanon from its extremely aggressive neighbour, Israel, although I'm sure that whoever the invaders were, Hizbollah would be prepared to fight.

The Lebanese army is responsible more for sorting out very dangerous criminals rather than any actual fighting work, they're more of a constablery than anything else, it leaves that generally to Hizbollah, although a member of the Lebanese army was killed when they were fighting off some Israeli commandoes that landed in a Lebanese town (I'm sorry, but I forget which town it was).

And you aren't?

Kimchi doesn't think Muslims are Semitic. He doesn't even think they're human to begin with.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a noncombatant if I stayed. I might hang out and try to kill a couple of their troops if they invade after the bombing.

So staying in your house makes you a combatant? As far as I'm aware there is no legal requirement for civilians to obey the orders/warnings of invading army, and almost certainly doesn't define them as combatants for not deserting most of their possessions in order to flee to some undefined place where they can just hope to find food, shelter etc? A case of "I'm going to punch this bit of air and if you're in the way then it's clearly all your fault for getting punched":rolleyes:

Yes. Call his ideas and positions stupid, not him. Good manners are a good thing.

His ideas and positions might have some merit if he wasn't an idiot. That's the point of calling stupid. It's like calling DesignatedMarksman a self deluded right wing nutjob, it's a statement of fact.

Well, I'm proud of Isreal for standing their ground.
And why is that?
And it doesn't surprise me none how the media and some other nations condemn the US and Isreal.
And it shouldn't, the amount of human rights abuses commited by these two nations, which both claim to be more civilised than their contempories, and beacons of the free world, are extremely high, and it's getting worse year by year.
Its a fact when you become #1 such as America you can expect to have others envy you, want your money, but looks forward to your fall.
No, you're just a silly nationalist :)

People dislike the US because it claims to be superior to so many other nations, but it has so many faults, such as a lack of universal healthcare, a lot of history of atrocities in war which is denies vehemently, crippling problems with with distribution, and the fact that the US has some serious foreign policy issues - installing horrible dictators like Pinochet and supporting bastards like Pol Pot, as well as funding many terrorist organisations - the Contras in many South American countries, the IRA and the Muhad'juhadeen (a.k.a. the Taliban) whilst trying to claim moral superiority etc.

Until the US sorts out either its problems, or it cuts out its rhetoric of being the best nation on the planet, it can expect criticism for whatever it does wrong, just as any other nation should.
I find it kind of amusing how it seems that the US and Isreal are condemned more than Al-queda and other known terrorist organizations.
Two things :

That's not actually correct in the slightest, and as I stated before, the US and Israel view themselves as above groups like Al-Qaeda, when actually they've done things many more times as terrible than such groups.

Al-Qaeda caused three thousand deaths on September 11th 2001. They have caused a grand total of no more deaths at all since then.

The casualties of Iraqi civilians alone total in the hundreds of thousands. The Afghani civilian deaths are in the many hundreds of thousands, due to the US cutting off areas of Afghanistan from the outside world and stopping food getting in, leading to incredible levels of starvation.
It's also funny how the UN thinks you can sit these viruses more know as terrorists at a table and talk to them
Terrorists are human beings too, you know.

Possibly if you talk to them, you can actually try to dissuade them from their actions.

They have their reasons, they have their opinions etc.

Like this current course going on in the UK - a seventeen year old is being tried over terrorism charges, he said that before the Iraq War, he would always defend the UK, and stopped people attacking it in his crew, but after the UK attacked Iraq, all of them fell silent when asked "any objection?".

Kind of tragic, really, but it does show that if you piss people off, they stop caring about things that they are otherwise very much opinionated about in your favour.
and pass resolution after resolution after resolution if all resolutions fail to get their attention what the hell lets pass another resolution. Very amusing indeed.
Hilarious!

People actually try a democratic approach over stupid violence!

Haha! What fools!

this isn't going to solve anything, has there ever been an attempt to set up a RP war crimes tribunal? legal rules on disclosure, evidence, objections etc whilst it would prove difficult and contrevesial, it makes more sense than just debating the same Israel is bad/NO palestine is bad over and over

Hilarious!

People actually try a democratic approach over stupid violence!

Haha! What fools!

The UN is democratic?

The UN is democratic?

In a manner of speaking. Quite a loose manner of speaking admittedly. Diplomatic would probably be a better word to use.

In a manner of speaking. Quite a loose manner of speaking admittedly.

Well, not exactly...

The UN is democratic?
Yes, everyone who is affected by votes, and who is on the relevant council gets to vote on issues.

Vetoes are really not in order, though.

They need to stop that business sharpish.

In a manner of speaking. Quite a loose manner of speaking admittedly. Diplomatic would probably be a better word to use.

A democracy doesn't have three entities with absolute veto power. The UN is more a joke than any workable form of government. Which is why when the right wingers grouse about it being a world government I can't help but giggle.

Well, not exactly...No, not exactly...

Shall I tell them, or will you?
Ok, Well, some countries think they are better than others... that's why the UN is not democratic.

Yes, everyone who is affected by votes, and who is on the relevant council gets to vote on issues.

Vetoes are really not in order, though.

They need to stop that business sharpish.

They won't get rid of vetoes.

Simple reason, democracy is a really REALLY bad idea. Mob rule is never a good thing.

Its sad, although I'm not the least bit suprised the jews committed such war crimes, they are after all barbaric. Its what they do.
What the fuck... Israel isn't "the Jews". Most of them are Jews but they're not the "The Jews".

Interesting, you actually found an anti-semetic Israeli paper. Good for you.
Ha'aretz is not anti-Semitic.

They won't get rid of vetoes.

Simple reason, democracy is a really REALLY bad idea. Mob rule is never a good thing.
Kind of disappointing in my opinion...

What the fuck... Israel isn't "the Jews". Most of them are Jews but they're not the "The Jews".

Ha'aretz is not anti-Semitic.

By definition in its own Constitution, Israel is a Jewish nation.

By definition in its own Constitution, Israel is a Jewish nation.

ok, so what? your the one always bitching about not being able to criticize religion without being labelled racist, why can't we criticize judaism?

ok, so what? your the one always bitching about not being able to criticize religion without being labelled racist, why can't we criticize judaism?

You can criticize it. Just be fine with being called an anti-Semite. Jews are a racial group as well.

If I'm criticizing militant Islam, I'm not criticizing a racial group, so I can't be a racist.

You can criticize it. Just be fine with being called an anti-Semite. Jews are a racial group as well.

If I'm criticizing militant Islam, I'm not criticizing a racial group, so I can't be a racist.

:confused: so if an asian or black guy converts to judaism he magically changes race?


I don't see how criticising one religion differs from another

:confused: so if an asian or black guy converts to judaism he magically changes race?

I don't see how criticising one religion differs from another

Then you don't know much about Judaism. It's also a racial thing. Yes, there are those who are not born Jewish, but there are quite a few who are.

It differs quite a bit.

Then you don't know much about Judaism. It's also a racial thing. Yes, there are those who are not born Jewish, but there are quite a few who are.

It differs quite a bit.

so if islam was confined to arabs only you would not dare criticise it? bullshit, its a total double standard you can either criticise all religions or none.

so if islam was confined to arabs only you would not dare criticise it? bullshit, its a total double standard you can either criticise all religions or none.

No, you can criticize Judaism. It just makes you by default, an anti-Semite.

If Islam was ONLY Arabs, then it would make me an anti-Arab racist to be anti-militant Islam. However, there are a wide variety of Muslims.

Judaism barely has 14 million people altogether, most of a single racial group (as borne out by genetic examination of Ashkenazis and Sephardics).

And criticing Israel is OK - it just makes you an anti-Semite if that's what you prefer to do all the time - bash on an officially Jewish nation.

You can be an anti-Semite all you like.

lets see here, a semite is a person who speaks a semitic language, Arabic is a semitic language, The Q'uran can not be recited in any other language besides arabic.

Wouldn't that be a "racial thing"?

lets see here, a semite is a person who speaks a semitic language, Arabic is a semitic language, The Q'uran can not be recited in any other language besides arabic.

Wouldn't that be a "racial thing"?

Only if the majority of Muslims were Arab, which they are not.

No, you can criticize Judaism. It just makes you by default, an anti-Semite.

If Islam was ONLY Arabs, then it would make me an anti-Arab racist to be anti-militant Islam. However, there are a wide variety of Muslims.

Judaism barely has 14 million people altogether, most of a single racial group (as borne out by genetic examination of Ashkenazis and Sephardics).

And criticing Israel is OK - it just makes you an anti-Semite if that's what you prefer to do all the time - bash on an officially Jewish nation.

You can be an anti-Semite all you like.

Anti-semite suggests that he dislikes their "Jewishness", criticising their views is different. Detesting some black people's opinions does not make you a racist for example.

No, you can criticize Judaism. It just makes you by default, an anti-Semite.

If Islam was ONLY Arabs, then it would make me an anti-Arab racist to be anti-militant Islam. However, there are a wide variety of Muslims.

Judaism barely has 14 million people altogether, most of a single racial group (as borne out by genetic examination of Ashkenazis and Sephardics).

And criticing Israel is OK - it just makes you an anti-Semite if that's what you prefer to do all the time - bash on an officially Jewish nation.

You can be an anti-Semite all you like.


I think thats bullshit, your using race as a shield to protect israel, its as bad as CAIR calling anyone against AL-Qaeda an islamophobe

And criticing Israel is OK - it just makes you an anti-Semite if that's what you prefer to do all the time - bash on an officially Jewish nation.

Did you just say that?
Criticizing Israel makes you a person criticizing Israel, not an anti-semite by any stretch of imagination.

EDIT: and owning my mistake here now. sorry.

I feel as if I am being lumped into the same group as occeandrive, I would like to assert that I am NOT. I support the idea of the israeli state, what I don't support are the methods used to create it....

No, you can criticize Judaism. It just makes you by default, an anti-Semite.

If Islam was ONLY Arabs, then it would make me an anti-Arab racist to be anti-militant Islam. However, there are a wide variety of Muslims.

Judaism barely has 14 million people altogether, most of a single racial group (as borne out by genetic examination of Ashkenazis and Sephardics).

And criticing Israel is OK - it just makes you an anti-Semite if that's what you prefer to do all the time - bash on an officially Jewish nation.

You can be an anti-Semite all you like.

People only call those who are against Israel anti-semitic when they don't have valid arguments. So you know what. Call me an anti-semite, and Nazi. Hell, call me hitler. He's even in my sig.

Its sad, although I'm not the least bit suprised the jews committed such war crimes, they are after all barbaric. Its what they do. To be honest if the international community would look away they would commit genocide of the entire region. And the US would do nothing to stop it.

not even a little bit anti-semitic?

after all its the israeli army that commited these alleged crimes, which has several arabic units in its ORBAT

I support the idea of the israeli state....I assume you meant to say a "I support the cration of a Jewish state"

me? I support the creation of one... ore more Jewish states.

what I don't support are the methods used to create it....same direction.. but I bringing in more HP

I feel as if I am being lumped into the same group as occeandrive...hmm no..


And there's a million of us just like me
who cuss like me; who just don't give a fuck like me
who dress like me; walk, talk and act like me
and just might be the next best thing but not quite me!

"In almost all contemporary nation therefore-in direct proportion to the degree which they act up nationalistically- the literary obscenity is spreading of leading the Jews to slaughter as scapegoats of every conceivable public and internal misfortune. Unpleasent and even dangerous qualities can be found in every nation and in every individual: it is cruel to demand the Jew be an exception."-Nietzsche, Human All too Human

I am not saying that being anti-israel is being anti-semitic but there are some parallels. First Jews have historically been blamed for a nations internal and in every single time in history it was not true. Gaza and the West Bank, very nationalistic, blame ALL their problems on Israel, though some may claim this is an exception, this time it really is the Jews I think inductively this is clearly untrue. Second every nation does bad things, including Israel. However the attention it gets is ridiculously unproportional to its size and the fact that it does its bad things by over-stepping its self-defense not commiting genocide.

"In almost all contemporary nation therefore-in direct proportion to the degree which they act up nationalistically- the literary obscenity is spreading of leading the Jews to slaughter as scapegoats of every conceivable public and internal misfortune. Unpleasent and even dangerous qualities can be found in every nation and in every individual: it is cruel to demand the Jew be an exception."-Nietzsche, Human All too Human

I am not saying that being anti-israel is being anti-semitic but there are some parallels. First Jews have historically been blamed for a nations internal and in every single time in history it was not true. Gaza and the West Bank, very nationalistic, blame ALL their problems on Israel, though some may claim this is an exception, this time it really is the Jews I think inductively this is clearly untrue. Second every nation does bad things, including Israel. However the attention it gets is ridiculously unproportional to its size and the fact that it does its bad things by over-stepping its self-defense not commiting genocide.I am seen double??..
or did you just posted this in moderation..

I am seen double??..
or did you just posted this in moderation..

That was an accident, corrected it, sorry.

That was an accident, corrected it, sorry.its no big deal..

I noticed it..because its the first time I see someone make his very first post at moderation.

Its sad, although I'm not the least bit suprised the jews committed such war crimes, they are after all barbaric. Its what they do. To be honest if the international community would look away they would commit genocide of the entire region. And the US would do nothing to stop it.

I still don't understand why this rogue state gets so much support. Them Israeli's do whatever the fuck they please, whenever the fuck they please, not caring a wee bit about international law, or just plain fucking ethics. kinda like Germany back in the 30's and early 40's.

Just evacuate all the sensible folks outta there, and let Ahmadinejad have it. Fucking nazi's.

Listen, people. The Jews were thrown out of their land and spent over 1800 years fleeing from nation to nation and country to country, all the while being unwarrantedly tortured, violated, abused, raped, kicked, beaten, slaughtered en masse, and unjustifiably and inexcusably mistreated in general, and now the evil, bloodthirsty Palestinians (no sarcasm intended - I really and truly believe they are nothing but a bunch of vicious, unreasoning, bloodthirsty, Jew-hating, Isreal-hating, USA-hating, warmongering religious bigots) want to kick them out of their own land AGAIN, kill every last one of them, and utterly wipe them off the face of the earth. The Jews already have it bad enough as it is, GIVE THEM A BREAK AND LET THEM DEFEND THEMSELVES!

I still don't understand why this rogue state gets so much support. Them Israeli's do whatever the fuck they please, whenever the fuck they please, not caring a wee bit about international law, or just plain fucking ethics. kinda like Germany back in the 30's and early 40's.

Just evacuate all the sensible folks outta there, and let Ahmadinejad have it. Fucking nazi's.

The problem is NOT with Israel, it is with "international law," because the UN is vehemently anti-Semitic and anti-Israel, and it makes these "laws", or "resolutions", for the sole and specific purpose of preventing Israel from defending itself, or having the ability to do so, to the end that Israel may be extinguished as a sovereign nation, and therefore Israel has no choice but to ignore these mischievous, unjust, unfair, discriminatory "resolutions" just to defend itself.

LONG LIVE THE USA AND ISRAEL!!!

And even their own, Mordechai Vanunu is still not allowed to talk to the press or even travel outside the country, while he should be working as dean emeritus at the University of Glasgow.
He’s actually the Rector of the university, elected by us students. Mr. Vanunu has promised us a visit the next time he can get out of house arrest, though Eris only knows when that’ll be.

My Momma never bought the "He started it!" defense, so I have grown up with no sympathy for it myself.

What the Nazis did to the Jews was unconscionable; and all the pogroms and mistreatment of Jews before, and since. That does not justify the Jews doing anything they please to Palestinians. The Nakba -- Jews slaughtering and evacuating Palestinians in 1947-1948 -- was unconscionable, as is much of Israel's treatment of Palestinians since. That does not justify Hamas, Hizbollah, or anyone else bombing Jewish civilians.

Nor does it justify condemning all Israelis as immoral, or eliminating Israel.

There is no peace without justice. The only real justice for anyone is equal justice for all. One of the greatest obstacles to peace is the argument that the injustice you do is justified by someone else having ben unjust to you.

His ideas and positions might have some merit if he wasn't an idiot. That's the point of calling stupid. It's like calling DesignatedMarksman a self deluded right wing nutjob, it's a statement of fact.
Wow. A moderator tells you to cut the insults and you come back with another one? Not a good move boyo. You can enjoy a 3 Day Forum ban to think about how to *not* insult people.

You know what, all of you who think Israel is so horrible and all that.
Just wait, 30, 40 years. After your homelands (read: Europe, USA, probably Canada) will be overrun by suicide-bombing Jihad, you'll all look at Israel in a different light, if it will still be around...

"In almost all contemporary nation therefore-in direct proportion to the degree which they act up nationalistically- the literary obscenity is spreading of leading the Jews to slaughter as scapegoats of every conceivable public and internal misfortune. Unpleasent and even dangerous qualities can be found in every nation and in every individual: it is cruel to demand the Jew be an exception."-Nietzsche, Human All too Human

I am not saying that being anti-israel is being anti-semitic but there are some parallels. First Jews have historically been blamed for a nations internal and in every single time in history it was not true. Gaza and the West Bank, very nationalistic, blame ALL their problems on Israel, though some may claim this is an exception, this time it really is the Jews I think inductively this is clearly untrue. Second every nation does bad things, including Israel. However the attention it gets is ridiculously unproportional to its size and the fact that it does its bad things by over-stepping its self-defense not commiting genocide.

Well spoken,

Still, too much emphasis on the parallels of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic can stifle a legitimate debate. Anti-Semitism exists and though those harbouring anti-Semitic feelings are likely to criticize Israel, this does not mean that criticism of Israel should be equalled with anti-Semitism, for this ends all debate and leaves no room to discuss the real issues. In the beginning of this thread I have even heard Haaretz been called anti-Semitic; calling Jews anti-Semitic harbours the threat of inflation of a term which makes this term meaningless.

Furthermore, I would like to note that people are more likely to criticize those close to them; there was more anger over France resisting the US invasion of Iraq, than over Russia or China, why is that? I hold Israel dear as a liberal democracy, however I see that Israel is neither liberal nor democratic in other aspects, and I consider that to be harmful both to the people of Israel and to its neighbours. I strive for better conditions for all in the region.
:)

The problem is NOT with Israel, it is with "international law," because the UN is vehemently anti-Semitic and anti-Israel, and it makes these "laws", or "resolutions", for the sole and specific purpose of preventing Israel from defending itself, or having the ability to do so, to the end that Israel may be extinguished as a sovereign nation, and therefore Israel has no choice but to ignore these mischievous, unjust, unfair, discriminatory "resolutions" just to defend itself.

LONG LIVE THE USA AND ISRAEL!!!

Knickers.

boring....really boring...war is some nasty shit...so WTF ?

Watch out CH! Now Kimchi's going to point at you and shriek "DHIMMI!!" like a good Pod Person.
Many people have tried to slap labels on me, only to learn that for the most part, the labels do not stick.

In regards to DK, I do find it amusing that he comes to the defence of the poor Muslim woman, even though his agenda has continuously revolved around the elimination of ALL Muslims.

boring....really boring...war is some nasty shit...so WTF ?
I would imagine that it is extremely easy to make such comments considering that you are nowhere near a war zone? :p

I would also imagine that if it were your family being roasted that you wouldn't find the war so boring?

Many people have tried to slap labels on me, only to learn that for the most part, the labels do not stick.

In regards to DK, I do find it amusing that he comes to the defence of the poor Muslim woman, even though his agenda has continuously revolved around the elimination of ALL Muslims.

Kind of like how he openly proclaimed "I'm amoral" when he started campaigning for Islamicide, then later proclaimed he was Christian.

Pointed that flip flop out and he tried to award me the Dhimmi Badge again. :D

Kind of like how he openly proclaimed "I'm amoral" when he started campaigning for Islamicide, then later proclaimed he was Christian.
Well, I haven't heard of a Christian religion yet that would support or advocate the extermination of 1 Billion people. Perhaps DK has unearthed a more recent version of God's Commandments?

Pointed that flip flop out and he tried to award me the Dhimmi Badge again. :D
Busheviks don't "flip flop" do they? :rolleyes:

Busheviks don't "flip flop" do they? :rolleyes:

Like fishes out of water. ;)

By definition in its own Constitution, Israel is a Jewish nation.
Which is stupid, because not everyone there is Jewish.

On the other hand, it allows them to easily deflect criticism into "YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE OMG j00 NAZI!", which is the most irritating and paper-thin defense in the universe.

Which is stupid, because not everyone there is Jewish.

On the other hand, it allows them to easily deflect criticism into "YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE OMG j00 NAZI!", which is the most irritating and paper-thin defense in the universe.

And as equally racist as a constitution declaring a christian or islamic nation.

Slobodan Halutz to the hague!

By definition in its own Constitution, Israel is a Jewish nation.
Yet only 40% of Jews live there.

Israel has a secular legal system, not some Jewish version of Sharia law.

Which is stupid, because not everyone there is Jewish.

On the other hand, it allows them to easily deflect criticism into "YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE OMG j00 NAZI!", which is the most irritating and paper-thin defense in the universe.
And the most intellectually lazy refutation of criticism of Israel.

And as equally racist as a constitution declaring a christian or islamic nation.

Slobodan Halutz to the hague!
Anti-Christian and anti-Muslim movements are stigmatised far less by the international community than incidents of anti-Semitism.

Anti-Christian and anti-Muslim movements are stigmatised far less by the international community than incidents of anti-Semitism.

Indeed, and the straw man of anti-semitism shouldnt prevent slobodan halutz from going to prison for the rest of his life.

And as equally racist as a constitution declaring a christian or islamic nation.

Hmm, "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan", "Islamic Republic of Iran"...
So I be damned! Some actually call themselves Islamic Republics as the official name.

Israel was created as the Land for the Jews, but it is not a land Only for Jews. Everyone is welcome. But indeed, the idea of Israel was giving a national home to the Jews that were exiled and opressed for thousands of years (and I won't mention the holocaust), same like any other nation has a home to go to. I mean, you wouldn't want having all the jews in your country, would you? I don't think other would want the jews in their countries as well.
Jews got their country, they left most of you alone, so leave the jews alone and apparently instantly found more people who want them out of where they are now.
What's your suggestion? Jews have no place in Israel beacuse they occupied *Palestinian territories, nor they have place in any other country in the world because, well, it's others' country. Nor there is a remaining untaken piece of land on this planet. Hmm, so, either Jews should try settling the Moon (I am sure there will be many who are against it), or maybe straight to the crematorium, free the world of those evil jews, eh?

*Palestinians: Care to explain WHO are the Palestinians, what is that Palestinian nation and tell me something about their history?

I would imagine that it is extremely easy to make such comments considering that you are nowhere near a war zone? :p

I would also imagine that if it were your family being roasted that you wouldn't find the war so boring?



I live in Philadelphia...I grew up in south philadelphia...and work in the inner.." inner " city...

WAR zone ???? :p the only thing missing is FAE / MOAB and mortors..:D

The issue of this particular war and the continuing circular argument is whats boring..whats astonishing is that the " cease fire " is still going on !

Nothing astonishing about the ceasefire.
Israel doesn't want to fight.
Hizbollah, whether they want or not, they were seriously damaged and they can't continue on fighting.
But in several months they'll resume shelling Israel's northern towns with Katyusha missiles like they always do every 3-4 months, even after Israel pulled out their forces completely at 2000.

Hmm, "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan", "Islamic Republic of Iran"...
So I be damned! Some actually call themselves Islamic Republics as the official name.

Israel was created as the Land for the Jews, but it is not a land Only for Jews. Everyone is welcome. But indeed, the idea of Israel was giving a national home to the Jews that were exiled and opressed for thousands of years (and I won't mention the holocaust), same like any other nation has a home to go to. I mean, you wouldn't want having all the jews in your country, would you? I don't think other would want the jews in their countries as well.

I don't believe any religious group should be allowed have a 'homeland' as I don't believe in theocracies.


*Palestinians: Care to explain WHO are the Palestinians, what is that Palestinian nation and tell me something about their history?

Started about 1917, 1948 or 1967 depending on your point of view. Age has nothing to do with whether a group of people are a 'nation' or not. The East Timorese are a nation (and now have a state) and have been since only 1999. Doesn't make them any less of a 'nation'? The Achenese govern there own region of Indonesia only since 2005, yet they themselves are still a 'nation'.

As for who they are:
Take two identical women (hypothetical situation A and B)- a one point in 'A's life she goes through a traumatic event (say a rape, plane crash or...). This psychologically differentiates her from what she was prior to the event. Ten, fifteen years later- are both 'A' and 'B' the same women?

Wow..the media in the us has dropped Israel faster than a hot potato!!!

Nothing astonishing about the ceasefire.I agree.. and its wont be the last one..

Hizbollah, whether they want or not, they were seriously damaged and they can't continue on fighting.
I do not think they were "serioulsy damaged.. "
#1 Israel has not managed to kill enough Hezbollah figthers..
#2 Hezbollah has plenty of support (and no its not only Syria ans Iran)

so why is Hezbollah playing along?
Hezbollah is too worrried about its Image..
Israel doesn't want to fight.I cant blame them..

some people in Israel is asking for the heads of the Generals..
but.. the hard reality on the field was:
#1 the Air bombing was not making a dent on the Hez rocket capabilities.
#2 the Hezbollah weapons-supply was never broken..still delivering as good as FedEX..
#3 the Tanks were being "murdered" by the hezz missiles.

Its sad, although I'm not the least bit suprised the jews committed such war crimes, they are after all barbaric.

Um, I really hope that was sarcasm. BEcause that remark was incredibly anti-semetic.

I don't believe any religious group should be allowed have a 'homeland' as I don't believe in theocracies.

...

Age has nothing to do with whether a group of people are a 'nation' or not. The East Timorese are a nation (and now have a state) and have been since only 1999. Doesn't make them any less of a 'nation'? The Achenese govern there own region of Indonesia only since 2005, yet they themselves are still a 'nation'.


First of all, jews apparently aren't a religious group but an ethnical group. People that can be traced by DNS to a quite distinct group.

Secondly, let's not call Israel as a Jewish state but the state for the Hebrews/Israelites that were sent away from their land because they were belonging to same nation. I doubt all of them were religious jews...
In that case, does this nation not deserve their own sovereign country, considering the fact that they are not wanted anywhere else?
If you'll say "no", you'll be contradicting yourself.

I do not think they (Hizbollah) were "serioulsy damaged.. "
#1 Israel has not managed to kill enough Hezbollah figthers..
#2 Hezbollah has plenty of support (and no its not only Syria ans Iran)

so why is Hezbollah playing along?
Hezbollah is too worrried about its Image.. I cant blame them..

...

some people in Israel is asking for the heads of the Generals..
but.. the hard reality on the field was:
#1 the Air bombing was not making a dent on the Hez rocket capabilities.
#2 the Hezbollah weapons-supply was never broken..still delivering as good as FedEX..
#3 the Tanks were being "murdered" by the hezz missiles.

A) Of course Hizbollah wasn't damaged "mortally" army-wise, I was talking about the image and many other aspect (including pressure from Lebanese citizens)

B) Actually by Israeli intelligence, very large percentage of mid-long range rocket lauchers was destroyed by the air bombing. Short range "Katyushas" and Mortars on the other hand is very difficult to destroy and was left almost intact.

---

By the way, about Ha'Aretz newpaper... During the weekend there was an article about many of the articles being wrong because reporters were intimidated, blackmailed and forced publishing material that was brought to them by specific arabs, especially during the last war. It was a long story that one of the reporters decided to share.
I don't know how much of it is true but if it is, all this thread is void :)

First of all, jews apparently aren't a religious group but an ethnical group. People that can be traced by DNS to a quite distinct group.
According to some. According to others (including some on here) Judaism is a religion pure and simple (The Atlantian Islands is a great poing in fact).

Secondly, let's not call Israel as a Jewish state but the state for the Hebrews/Israelites
You can call it a space badger state for I care. They themselves call it a Jewish homeland in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. Being of the Jewish faith gives you the right to 'return' even if you have had no previous connections with the state. Being of the Jewish faith makes it easier to obtain citizenship. Sounds very much like it is faith based to me.

Even the divisons is Israeli society today show there is a debate over whether or not Israel should be a secular nation like any other- which to Orthodox Jews would be oxymoronic in nature.

I can well see both sides point of views, but they themselves must sort out what they are. Like I said before, I do not believe in theocracies- simple.

A) Of course Hizbollah wasn't damaged "mortally" army-wise, I was talking about the image and many other aspect (including pressure from Lebanese citizens)
interesting..

If you were a Hezbollah strategist.. What kind of "Image" would you try to project?

A) to the Muslim world.
B) to the "Neutrals" (parts of EU/Asia/SA/Africa)
C) to the "other side".. USA/Israel.

interesting..

If you were a Hezbollah strategist.. What kind of "Image" would you try to project?

A) to the Muslim world.
B) to the "Neutrals" (parts of EU/Asia/SA/Africa)
C) to the "other side".. USA/Israel.

Well, about projecting, they always project the fact that they weren't damaged at all and that they won and that nothing really happened except that they have beaten the Israel army, and they are projecting it to everyone.
Of course, they know it isn't really the case but they can't allow admitting it.

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@Psychotic Mongooses:

I agree that this is problematic. I don't think that even the religious orthodox jews know what's going on. You don't have to be religious though. You can praise Jesus but as long as you are from a jewish family (jewish mother), you will instantly get citizenship. Defining if a mother is jewish is exactly the same - if she had a jewish mother (even if she considers herself faithwise as christian). Non-jews can get citizenship too as in any other country in the world, by marrying a Jewish woman (don't know if it works the other way around) or after several years (I think 5 or 6) of living and working in Israel by law.

I personally don't like the definition of Jewish. I prefer the definition of Hebrew (or Israelite, Judaean, Canaanite, whatever...) that should be equivalent to Irish or German or French or Spanish or English or whatever. I know it's a bit problematic though, because Irish are those whose origins are from Ireland, and German are those from Germany and etc. And it's very hard to trace people back to Israel of 2000 years ago these days.

Well, about projecting, they always project the fact that they weren't damaged at all and that they won and that nothing really happened except that they have beaten the Israel army, and they are projecting it to everyone.
Of course, they know it isn't really the case but they can't allow admitting it.If that is all you can bring to the table..
My advice is "Do not leave your day Job"..

all Generals/Politicians do it.. most of the time they all say "we won".. even if its clear they did not.
The Generals do not need an strategist to tell them to do that.. they do it automatically..

all Generals/Politicians do it.. most of the time they all say "we won".. even if its clear they did not.
The Generals do not need an strategist to tell them to do that.. they do it automatically..

Of course they do, I never said otherwise.
The masses buy it though, especially if they have no other means to judge objectively. I don't think I understand what are you trying to say here. Maybe I just misunderstood your question.