NationStates Jolt Archive

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.To be honest, from my understanding of miracles and tale-telling, the chances of God doing anything that violates the laws of physics, biology, or chemistry is pretty darn close to zero.

This has been done before.
The general response was, "I still wouldnt worship him because even IF he exists, God is a jerk."
Nice try though.

I'd probably think something along the lines of "Huh, god eh?" and then proceed to live my life exactly as I did before only with the knowledge that apparently there is some sort of god-entity.

So whats the point in your post?

It's a persons choice to believe or not believe if God. Hypathetical situations don't really make sense in the argument about Athetists not wanting to believe in a being higher than themselves.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

It would work for me, but generations that came after would have reason to doubt if what I saw was real.

The appearance of God would, in fact, fulfill my requirement that his existance be proven before I begin to believe that he exists.

Would I worship him?

no.

to me, 'worship' implies that I seccede my freedom to the whim of that which I worship, and that is something I can never do.

If Jesus actually did that then I would become Christian. Okay, so now I'll wait...


How long will this take and when will it happen?


Waits some more...

Harmonia Mortus Redux;11677030']This has been done before.
The general response was, "I still wouldnt worship him because even IF he exists, God is a jerk."
Nice try though.

You don't have to worship a god just because you believe it exists.

Hmmm.....


Nothing yet...


Waits some more...

Hmmm.....


Nothing yet...


Waits some more...


LO I AM HERE. I DO PROCLAIM IT WAS ALL A JOKE. SORRY FOR THE INCONVINIENCE HOHOHOHAHAHA

After doing a really cool series of miracles, does He specify which denomination (I always spell that demonination the first time around) or sect is right? That would do a lot to change people's actions. I am fairly sure that particular sect would increase in popularity dramatically.

But if He didn't, and just showed up all miraculous and imparted profound truths, I can honestly say that it changes a person's perspective rather than behaviour.

No. That is not entirely true. The person's behaviour would be more moral, but my experience indicates that would be an indirect consequence of the revelation.

As if that will ever happen...:rolleyes:

No I wouldn't be impressed if god caused a few natural disasters, and told us that he really does exist and we should worship him or else. However if he actually did something nice and made the world a better place to live in, then I would respect him. I doubt the christian god would do that though (if he really did exist), a plague is more his style.

thinking about it:

if he did poke his head out of the clouds, i think the religious fights on this planet would get worse:

*pokes his head out*
"hey, look! It's God!"
"No, it's Allah!"
"What are you talking about? that's totally God!"
"no way!"
"way"

After doing a really cool series of miracles, does He specify which denomination (I always spell that demonination the first time around) or sect is right? That would do a lot to change people's actions. I am fairly sure that particular sect would increase in popularity dramatically.

But if He didn't, and just showed up all miraculous and imparted profound truths, I can honestly say that it changes a person's perspective rather than behaviour.

No. That is not entirely true. The person's behaviour would be more moral, but my experience indicates that would be an indirect consequence of the revelation.

He didnt specify last time.
Same would happen again,

*grumbles 'Son of a...'*

Another one of these? Look. If God does exist, there should be no reason for Him/Her to express to us His/Her existance. That is a matter of faith. There is no logical way in which to prove or disprove God's existance. Believe what you would like, and some people have faith some do not. Some want observable evidence, some do not. Whatever the case, its not God's job (assuming he is up there of course) to convince or confirm anyone.

Try to instead agree to disagree and then change the world for the better with everyone around you - regardless of faith or creed. If you believe in God and you make the world better, he will be pleased right? If you dont believe in God and you make the world better, then you have made it better for those who come after you. Theres no reason to divid the world up to those who believe and those do not, just work together to bring about good changes to the world.

:)

She 'moves ocean or two'??! "What a dick!", is what I would think.

LO I AM HERE. I DO PROCLAIM IT WAS ALL A JOKE. SORRY FOR THE INCONVINIENCE HOHOHOHAHAHA



:rolleyes:

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed?

I would certainly be impressed and intrigued by any being capable of doing what you describe. However, I would still have no reason to assume that said being was the God described by any particular human religion, nor would I have any particular reason to trust any other human's assumptions about what that being does or does not want.


would you Unfaith hold?

Do you mean, would my lack of belief in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever diety still remain? Absolutely. I would have no more reason to believe that any of these faiths were relevant to the being I had just observed than I would have reason to believe the teachings of any of the other many human faiths that have existed over time.

I would have no reason to assume that the being I witnessed was a god, any more than I would have reason to assume it was a devil. I would have no reason to assume it was omnipotent, omnicient, good, evil, or anything beyond what I observed. If it decided not to communicate with me, I would have no reason to leap to any assumptions about its desires in regards to me.

or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.
I am not capable of performing miracles. I would be very interested in any being who could do so. However, the ability to perform miracles and the inclination to declare oneself a god do not necessarily prove that such a being is worthy of worship. I would require more information.

Does he get all "thee, though and Verily" on us or is he more casual like, "Yo, check it, homie. Imma 'bout to drop some shiznit on yo assssssss, 'cause up in dis bitch, it's laid out like dat, dog. Imma 'bouts to git me some 'tang and a fat spliff up in dis mug, yo."

What if god shows up, performs a few miracles, then announces to everyone who saw him that he doesn't exist, it's a hallucination and they all need antipsychotic meds?

What if god shows up, performs a few miracles, then announces to everyone who saw him that he doesn't exist, it's a hallucination and they all need antipsychotic meds?
"I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand?! Honestly!"
"Only the true Messiah denies His divinity!"
"What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!"
"He is! He is the Messiah!"

Superstition: 1, Reason: 0.

I'd take the opportunity to slap this thing right out of the sky and point over to the Middle East and say, "If you're so fuckin' brilliant and can move oceans, why don't you fix that crap?"

Then I'd /ignore it.

You know what would be really awkward? What if he came down from the clouds and you caught him getting all drunk and humping your dog. I mean, you can't really just be all, "Hey! Don't do that! That's animal abuse!" I mean, you know it's, like, THE LORD and all. How can you really tell the LORD to stop humping your dog? Or what if he just goes straight to your fridge and eats all yoru good peanut butter because he's stoned. How do you tell the Lord, "hey, that's expensive peanut butter. Eat the Skippy, please." Or what if you came home and found him passed out on your couch and the liquor cabunet is emptty and he's peed himself. :confused:

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Well, it will never happen

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.
Tell you what,
if he shows up while I live, I'll convert to whatever religion you want. If he doesn't show up while you live, you have to renounce Him before dying as we were certainly right about his non-existence.

Deal?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

No, that'd pretty well do it for me. Not to say I'd bow down in worship, but I'd surely be impressed, and intent upon figuring out how he did it.

I'd take the opportunity to slap this thing right out of the sky and point over to the Middle East and say, "If you're so fuckin' brilliant and can move oceans, why don't you fix that crap?"

Then I'd /ignore it.

Well, and yes, good point. Can the pyrotechnics and redecorating tricks (maybe we like the oceans where they are), and get busy cleaning up some of the crap that's going down in Your Name. Kind of like Daddy going out for a pack of cigarettes 4,000 years ago and coming back with a big grin, "Did you miss me?"

Well, I kind of already know that Poseidon exists, so that really wouldn't sway me any closer to him. Plus, he has a nasty habit of screwing over his worshippers with natural disasters when they piss him off so I'll be sure to keep myself fairly distanced from him even after such a bold display of power.

I think I'll stick to Pan and Artemis as patrons.

LO I AM HERE. I DO PROCLAIM IT WAS ALL A JOKE. SORRY FOR THE INCONVINIENCE HOHOHOHAHAHA

For some reason that makes think of Jabba the Hutt. :confused:

my reaction would be somthing along the lines of "oh shit... just when i was getting used to the idea of a comfortable coffin ill have to spend all eternity in dreadfull boredom in hell... oh well, it can't be worse than heaven:D "

Personally, I think this question should be first posed to those who DO believe in a particular god/gods.

For instance, to all the Christians: what would be your reaction to this same scenario if the being in question insisted that it was Allah? Or Gaia? Or Zeus?

Let's face it, people who aren't supersitious probably aren't going to be won over by a bunch of magic tricks. On the other hand, people who already believe in beings capable of said magic are probably going to give far more weight to stunts of that sort. People who have already decided what they believe about the nature of God are probably going to have a lot more to worry about if God suddenly shows up and starts talking for itself.

For instance, to all the Christians: what would be your reaction to this same scenario if the being in question insisted that it was Allah? Or Gaia? Or Zeus?

.

Flying Spagetti monster

Flying Spagetti monster

Ramen.

how come nobody mentioned cthulhu yet?:rolleyes:

how come nobody mentioned cthulhu yet?:rolleyes:

No point. He shows up, we'ld most likely be dead already.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Does the same work in reverse? If God doesn't show up and oceans stay put, would that be enough to prove she doesn't exist? Would you then consider that there might be scientific explanations for all of the so called miracles? If so, good for all of us.







I'm betting mine is the more likely scenario.

Does the same work in reverse? If God doesn't show up and oceans stay put, would that be enough to prove she doesn't exist? Would you then consider that there might be scientific explanations for all of the so called miracles? If so, good for all of us.

Here's another question:

Let's say God does show up one day. Who among the Believers will be the first to march up to God and share all their personal beliefs about what God is and what God wants? Who wants to be the first to have a Supreme Being laugh in their face? ;)

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.David Copperfield is God?

It would work for me, but generations that came after would have reason to doubt if what I saw was real.

Well today we have video capturing devices that could prove something happened, to later generations.

David Copperfield is God?

Well he pulled off that cheezy magician getting married to Claudia Schiffer miracle.

For instance, to all the Christians: what would be your reaction to this same scenario if the being in question insisted that it was Allah? Or Gaia? Or Zeus?


...

Unicron

For instance, to all the Christians: what would be your reaction to this same scenario if the being in question insisted that it was Allah?


Christian God=Yaweh=Allah.

Well today we have video capturing devices that could prove something happened, to later generations.

Yeah, like that time when some old dude fought a demon thing called a balrog or something on a stone bridge in an old mine. It's on video so it must be true.

Well he pulled off that cheezy magician getting married to Claudia Schiffer miracle.

Made her taste in men disappear. :D

Here's another question:

Let's say God does show up one day. Who among the Believers will be the first to march up to God and share all their personal beliefs about what God is and what God wants? Who wants to be the first to have a Supreme Being laugh in their face? ;)

Excellent question!

Made her taste in men disappear. :D

:D

Christian God=Yaweh=Allah.Okay, same question, only it's Shiva, or Osiris, or Thor.

Yeah, like that time when some old dude fought a demon thing called a balrog or something on a stone bridge in an old mine. It's on video so it must be true.

Good point. Well made. :D

Okay, same question, only it's Shiva, or Osiris, or Thor.

Or Gaia or Tiamat or Hera.

David Copperfield is God?

If so, then Kriss Angel is Jesus (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z-EygeAcKHw)

Im not religious?
im atheist.
People seem to be talking to me as if i am.
:(

...
God cant exist because he only bothered to make an appearance way back when which was a blip on the timeline of human existance.
:D

Christian God=Yaweh=Allah.

Umm, no. The Christian God is trinitatrian. Yaweh (as the Jews believe him to be) and Allah are not: they are unitarian.

my foot itches. If god stops that and my paraniond depression I'll love him. I'll even get him off, for free!

Yeah, like that time when some old dude fought a demon thing called a balrog or something on a stone bridge in an old mine. It's on video so it must be true.

Oh come on, was that on a movie or something? There is a clear difference between something like a news video, and a home made hoax, or hollywood movie.

Oh come on, was that on a movie or something? There is a clear difference between something like a news video, and a home made hoax, or hollywood movie.

... it was lord of the rings

Umm, no. The Christian God is trinitatrian. Yaweh (as the Jews believe him to be) and Allah are not: they are unitarian.



I beleive the trinity is one entity, as all three are of God. believing otherwise would make you polytheistic. Its like when Muslims have different name for God, I don't know the exacts on that. But to me its God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Im not religious?

We have no way of knowing the answer to that. Your OP certainly carried the tone of 'a pissed off believer trying to convert all them heathens'.

im atheist.
People seem to be talking to me as if i am.
:(

...
God cant exist because he only bothered to make an appearance way back when which was a blip on the timeline of human existance.
:D

Your logic is not so strong there, however. God, by definition CAN exist without bothering to appear anywhere at all ever. Not that I am arguing she DOES, mind you... but your supporting evidence for arguing a solid case against it needs some work.

Oh come on, was that on a movie or something? There is a clear difference between something like a news video, and a home made hoax, or hollywood movie.


Not always... and who knows what people might make of it in 4000 years?

Point is, video can EASILY be faked.

I beleive the trinity is One entity, as all are of God. believing otherwise would make you polytheistic.

And? The Jews and Muslims reject that there is a Trinity. therefore, they are not worshipping the same God as the Christians.

Oh come on, was that on a movie or something? There is a clear difference between something like a news video, and a home made hoax, or hollywood movie.
The press can't be fooled by a hoax? Remember, most times the news media don't have cameras on the scene when news happens. They show up later, film the aftermath and interview the witnesses. They often run amateur video taken by people at the scene when it happened.

Oh come on, was that on a movie or something? There is a clear difference between something like a news video, and a home made hoax, or hollywood movie.

Because Hollywood never fakes news videos. Just in Jurassic Park, Contact, and dozens of others. Hell Contact had Bubba Clinton himself talking about the aliens.

And? The Jews and Muslims reject that there is a Trinity. therefore, they are not worshipping the same God as the Christians.

No, the Moslems dislike the fact that some Christians do treat it as a polytheistic way of life. A little trivia for you. Arabic speaking Christians call God by the name of Allah. And Jews reject the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, as he was a lowly man, and not the great king they expected, coming from the lineage of David and Solomon.

The press can't be fooled by a hoax? Remember, most times the news media don't have cameras on the scene when news happens. They show up later, film the aftermath and interview the witnesses. They often run amateur video taken by people at the scene when it happened.

Well I guess its safe to say that Pearl Harbour was just a hoax then, conspired by the illuminati to make the US the SuperPower and rule the world?

No, the Moslems dislike the fact that some Christians do treat it as a polytheistic way of life. A little trivia for you. Arabic speaking Christians call God by the name of Allah. And Jews reject the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, as he was a lowly man, and not the great king they expected, coming from the lineage of David and Solomon.

And here's a little trivia for you: same word /=/ same concept. The word Allah means God in English. But the Muslim concept of God is not the same as the Christian concept. Therefore, they are not worshipping the same God. Same with the Jews.

And a little more trivia (not to be an ass, but so it doesn't get you in trouble later) the spelling Moslem isn't kosher right now. Why? I have no idea, but they (whoever they is) don't like anyone using it, at least in the US.

No, the Moslems dislike the fact that some Christians do treat it as a polytheistic way of life. A little trivia for you. Arabic speaking Christians call God by the name of Allah. And Jews reject the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, as he was a lowly man, and not the great king they expected, coming from the lineage of David and Solomon.

Plus, IIRC, the Messiah wouldn't actually know he was the Messiah and Jesus pretty clearly said he was so that kind of rules him out.

Well I guess its safe to say that Pearl Harbour was just a hoax then, conspired by the illuminati to make the US the SuperPower and rule the world?

There is hard evidence left over from pearl harbor. I'll tell you what, prove to me that Tupac is really dead. After all, he's released albums after he was supposed to have been shot to death. How about Elvis?

And here's a little trivia for you: same word /=/ same concept. The word Allah means God in English. But the Muslim concept of God is not the same as the Christian concept. Therefore, they are not worshipping the same God. Same with the Jews.

And a little more trivia (not to be an ass, but so it doesn't get you in trouble later) the spelling Moslem isn't kosher right now. Why? I have no idea, but they (whoever they is) don't like anyone using it, at least in the US.
Except for the fact that Moslems use a lot of concepts from Chrisitianity and Judaism.

Plus, IIRC, the Messiah wouldn't actually know he was the Messiah and Jesus pretty clearly said he was so that kind of rules him out.

Where is that found at? I don't recall seeing or ever hearing that.

Since god doesn't exist, it would never happen, therefore it doesn't matter, same as if I asked what would happen if Homer Simpson visited you and drank all your beer and ate all your donuts... Homer is a fictional character and doesn't exist, so the question is stupid and doesn't matter...

...hey, he asked atheists

I beleive the trinity is one entity, as all three are of God. believing otherwise would make you polytheistic. Its like when Muslims have different name for God, I don't know the exacts on that. But to me its God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

That presents an interesting conundrum. If Jesus was NOT a separate entity, with free will of his own and distinct from God, then how was his sacrifice of any use at all, as it was not, in fact, a sacrifice, but only an execution? That is, if Jesus ALLOWED himself, of his own free will to be a sacrifice, then it counts for something. If it was just a part of the God entity, simply a small piece of the whole, then first off his physical life was mostly meaningless, and secondly, free will in this case is meaningless too. So what if a piece of God gets nailed to a cross? God is the supreme being. You can't really do her any harm anyway. So what does that little bit of theatre prove?

Unless Jesus was human, the whole cross thing is a big old hoax. And unless Jesus is a separate being (the only way he could possibly have free will) then his sacrifice is as meaningless as us sacrificing a cow for dinner, as neither Jesus nor the cow has any actual say in the matter, nor ownership of the event.


EDIT*** OK, nevermind this... I wrote it quickly and on re-reading realize I REALLY don't want to get into a full blown argument on the meaning (or lack thereof) of the crucifixion (or crucifiction, for the "lack thereof" camp). Please forget I said it. Thanks!

And here's a little trivia for you: same word /=/ same concept. The word Allah means God in English. But the Muslim concept of God is not the same as the Christian concept. Therefore, they are not worshipping the same God. Same with the Jews.

And a little more trivia (not to be an ass, but so it doesn't get you in trouble later) the spelling Moslem isn't kosher right now. Why? I have no idea, but they (whoever they is) don't like anyone using it, at least in the US.

Jew God = Christian God = Muslim God. Every scholar will tell you that.

They just view it differently but they all agree they are talking about the same God. They just disagree on what He want, what He's like, what are His teachings, etc.

God not being there to correct his little children, nobody knows who's right.

Actually, "Allah" doesn't mean "God", so it's not "There is no god except God".

Allah is never translated. It's a name. If you had to literally translate it, it should be "the only God" or "Supreme Creator" or whatever.

Saying Allah means God makes about as much sense as saying YHWH means God when it actually is several forms of "to be" in Hebrew.

There is hard evidence left over from pearl harbor. I'll tell you what, prove to me that Tupac is really dead. After all, he's released albums after he was supposed to have been shot to death. How about Elvis?

Well we can use simplistic, stereotypical atheistic logic, and say "If I can't see it, it mustn't exist" and well, i can't see tupac, so obviously he must not exist anymore.:rolleyes: And his albums coming out after death are simply coincedence. I mean there is some logical explanation for it. Like pre recorded tracks


(I actually beleive he is stil alive btw) :p

Well I guess its safe to say that Pearl Harbour was just a hoax then, conspired by the illuminati to make the US the SuperPower and rule the world?

Errr... huh?

Because film CAN be faked doesn't mean it always IS. However it is equally true that because it can be real doesn't mean that no one ever fakes film. Your question is kind of ridiculous.

Except for the fact that Moslems use a lot of concepts from Chrisitianity and Judaism.

And? Atheists and other people say that Jesus had a lot of good ideas all the time; but they aren't Christian.

Where is that found at? I don't recall seeing or ever hearing that.

I believe it's in the writings of Maimonides:

"Do not imagine that the anointed King must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign..."

But then again, it's hard to claim that being the Messiah necessarily involves ignorance of that position. Also, the fact that Jesus claimed to be divine was heretical according to the Jewish view of the Messiah; it was considered blasphemous for anyone to claim that they were divine, part of a Trinity or an intermediaary between God and man.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Since such an occurance would violate numerous laws of physics, not to mention common sense, it would not occur, and thus there would be no issue.

He was a seperate entity in that he wasn't a Godhead, a different diety. That is what I am trying to say. He specifically says many times, I and my father are the same, he is in me, and i am in him, we are one.

Errr... huh?

Because film CAN be faked doesn't mean it always IS. However it is equally true that because it can be real doesn't mean that no one ever fakes film. Your question is kind of ridiculous.

I was just using the same logic as everyone else.

He was a seperate entity in that he wasn't a Godhead, a different diety. That is what I am trying to say. He specifically says many times, I and my father are the same, he is in me, and i am in him, we are one.

Which, of course, automatically disqualifies him to be the Messiah. That is heresy within Judaism and totally against their belief in the nature of the Messiah; also, he wasn't a prophet and that further made his claim invalid.

Well we can use simplistic, stereotypical atheistic logic, and say "If I can't see it, it mustn't exist" and well, i can't see tupac, so obviously he must not exist anymore.:rolleyes: And his albums coming out after death are simply coincedence. I mean there is some logical explanation for it. Like pre recorded tracks


(I actually beleive he is stil alive btw) :p

Future generations will come up with non-supernatural, logical explanations when watching miracles on old news broadcasts too. The means exists to fake them through special effects, and the motive to fake them exists (There are plenty of religious groups willing to win converts and keep the faithfull by dishonest means. Just look at creationists.).

Now considering that what do you think people in the future would consider more likely, the breaking of natural laws by a supernatural entity who wants people to believe but can't be bothered to make a personal appearance for thousands of years at a time, or a hoax designed to make people believe?

I was just using the same logic as everyone else.

Not at all. Everyone else was saying "film can be faked". Your logic said "if film can be faked, all film must be".

Video tape of God appearing in the clouds and saying "Hey, it is me!" would be suspect, just as is bigfoot tape and pictures of the Loch Ness Monster, and for many of the same reasons.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

All the laws of physics/nature stuff aside, even if a God(dess) did move the Atlantic Ocean to the Middle East and then go away for another 4000 years, I'd wonder why (s)he decided to move an ocean rather than stick around and stop all the religious crap.

Which, of course, automatically disqualifies him to be the Messiah. That is heresy within Judaism and totally against their belief in the nature of the Messiah; also, he wasn't a prophet and that further made his claim invalid.
See, the thing is. If he was God, what he said goes. The Judaic faith could have made some mistakes, y'know. If the real God came about and said "I am God. You will love your neighbour. I don't care about those people saying I should come from Solomon." and it turns out he was right, he is the God holding all the cards and you can whine all you want about it not being like prophesized in the Torah. If he wasn't God, well he won't tell you, now will he?

So all that nonsense about being "disqualified" is moot.

I was just using the same logic as everyone else.

No you weren't. My logic was that if god appeared today and people generations from now heard about it they couldn't be blamed for considering it a hoax. Not that it would definitely be considered a hoax.

Considering something as impossible, or at least highly unlikely, as the laws of nature being broken by a miracle to be a hoax if you're not an eye witness is very different from considering an attack on a naval base to be a hoax. Naval bases get attacked from time to time. Even into the present day US ships have been attacked with explosives. An Israeli ship was recently hit by an Iranian cruise missile launched by hezbollah. In the context of this, Pearl Harbor is much more believable than some guy generations ago claiming he saw god perform a miarcle.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

If that happens, then I will convert, I am not an idiot. But that has never happened, and never will happen, because God is a fraudulent construction of some very crafty community leaders and politicians from ancient times.

The scenario you propose is a lot like saying, "well, if it were proved to you that God was fake, would you be an atheist?" Well of course you would, that's what "proved" means. As with your scenario, of course if that happened people would become theistic. But what's important to remember is that that will never happen, and never has happened, because God is a lie and a diversion designed explicitly to give political cohesion to ancient societies as they made the transition from agrarian or nomadic lifestyles to organized communities where people lived in close proximity.

Here's a little experiment you can try, to help you understand what it means to be a theist.

HYPOTHESIS: The average student is smarter than God.
ALT. HYPOTHESIS: Reading provides more knowledge than God does.

WHAT YOU NEED:
1. Six students of equal age and relatively equal objective intelligence; three theistic, three not, neither of whom have read or ever had summarized to them F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby."
2. Three copies of F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby."
3. Nine copies of a relatively simple, ten-question open response quiz asking to relate certain plot relevancies that occur between chapters 4 and 8 of "The Great Gatsby."
4. Three more students, preferably agnostic. This is the control group. They also have not read or encountered the work from material 2.

PROCEDURE:
1. Tell the nine students that, at the conclusion of the experiment, they will be tested on relevant plot points between chapters 4 and 8 of F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby."
2. Divide the three groups into seperate rooms, one group in eah room, all of which should be as similar as possible, and free of outside noise, distraction, so on.
3. Have the theistic group pray in whatever form they believe to be most effective to have the subject of their theism divine to them relevant plot elements of chapters 4-8 in F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby."
4. Have the atheistic group read chapters 4-8 of F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby."
5. Have the control group behave normally in their room, conversing, so on.
6. Bring all three groups together and give them each the quiz on chapters 4-8 of F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby." Average together the scores within groups.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
Which groups scored better? Which group scored better? Which is smarter- God or the average student? Was God's grasp of chapters 4-8 of the novel sufficient to average a score higher than an F on any quiz taken by the theistic students? Compare against the control group. Was praying any better than doing nothing?

My public high school did not let me carry out this experiment as part of a piece for the school newspaper, sadly, so I have yet to tell the actual results. But that was several years ago, so maybe one of you can ask your teachers or administration if it's OK to do this experiment and publish the results!

AIM- ChrisRay6000

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

*shrug
So I would know that god exists. Wouldn't change a whole lot, because it still wouldn't mean that I'd let him tell me what to do.

Which, of course, automatically disqualifies him to be the Messiah. That is heresy within Judaism and totally against their belief in the nature of the Messiah; also, he wasn't a prophet and that further made his claim invalid.

How was he not a prophet? Ever read Matt 24? You know how I know that he is the messiah? because he fulfilled all the prophecies written about the messiah, to the tee. Someone doing that is like 100 trillion to 1, and for him to do that, means that he is extraordinary

There are logical explanations for later generations watching miracles on old news broadcasts too. The means exists to fake them through special effects, and the motive to fake them exists (There are plenty of religious groups willing to win converts and keep the faithful by dishonest means. Just look at creationists.).

Now considering that what do you think people in the future would consider more likely, the breaking of natural laws by a supernatural entity who wants people to believe but can't be bothered to make a personal appearance for thousands of years at a time, or a hoax designed to make people believe?

I just have a feeling that a world wide broadcast of a diety appearing of the sky, would be something later generations would remember.

Not at all. Everyone else was saying "film can be faked". Your logic said "if film can be faked, all film must be".

Video tape of God appearing in the clouds and saying "Hey, it is me!" would be suspect, just as is bigfoot tape and pictures of the Loch Ness Monster, and for many of the same reasons.

My logic was, film can be faked. I mean, think about it. In the future both are equally crazy sounding. God appeared? No way?!? The invincible super power the US was suprised attacked? No way?!?

See, the thing is. If he was God, what he said goes. The Judaic faith could have made some mistakes, y'know. If the real God came about and said "I am God. You will love your neighbour. I don't care about those people saying I should come from Solomon." and it turns out he was right, he is the God holding all the cards and you can whine all you want about it not being like prophesized in the Torah. If he wasn't God, well he won't tell you, now will he?

Well, if the Torah is wrong then Christianity and Islam are wrong and so the entire system collapses in on itself. And, in that case it doesn't really matter what the hell happened because half of the world's population has just seen their religious beliefs rendered incorrect in the blink of an eye.

So all that nonsense about being "disqualified" is moot.

No, it's not. The Messiah is a concept of Judaism, and so if the Jews don't embrace somebody as the Messiah it's pretty damn likely that the person isn't the one. And, if the requirements of the Messiah are wrong because the Torah is wrong, it doesn't matter either way because everyone who uses that book for their religion is also rendered incorrect.

And, if the Jews are God's chosen people I'm pretty sure God isn't going to pull a fast one on them and trick them in to rejecting the Messiah. And this doesn't even take in to account the other 3 billion people who hold beliefs that have nothing to do with the concept; honestly, I don't think the Bible is any more correct than any other religious text so it's irrelevant to me.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

The existence of God is irrelevant to me.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.
I would be slightly impressed, but not moved because fundamentals wank jobs would still be alive.

Hmn... I'd ask him to create a rock so heavy that even he couldn't lift it... Or... smite all the religious nuts.

If the Lord appeared, I would challenge him to a game of skee ball.

If the Lord appeared, I would challenge him to a game of skee ball.

He'd win.

Then what?

How was he not a prophet? Ever read Matt 24? You know how I know that he is the messiah? because he fulfilled all the prophecies written about the messiah, to the tee. Someone doing that is like 100 trillion to 1, and for him to do that, means that he is extraordinary

The Talmud (Ta'anit 2:1) states: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar." That's it; if you claim to be God, you are not the Messiah. Also: Talmud (Sotah 48b) "when Malachi died the Prophecy departed from Israel." Jesus couldn't have been a prophet because it died with Malachi who lived 400 years before Jesus was even born.

The Messiah is expected to return the Jews to Israel and rebuild the Temple, reign as the King of Israel, and usher in an era of peace and enlightenment. He is also supposed to bring about world peace by leading the world's nations to recognize the wrongs they did to Israel. None of these happened, and in fact Jesus lived when the Second Temple was still standing; predicting that the temple was going to be destroyed doesn't mean anything because the Messiah is supposed to rebuild it. All of these are supported by passages in the Torah.

Furthermore, it is impossible for people to achieve salvation through the sacrifice of others according to Deuteronomy; Jesus' death would have done nothing for the sins of others because everyone has to achieve salvation and absolution of sin personally. Furthermore, it is impossible for Jesus to be the Messiah because his teachings diverge from the Torah; again, it is clearly supported in Deuteronomy that the Torah is the word of God, and cannot be changed or altered by anyone.

He'd win.

Then what?

You missed the reference ;)

If the Lord appeared, I would challenge him to a game of skee ball.

God loves Skee Ball! I'm betting on the diety.

Edwardis, you're mistaken on two counts. The first is that christianity automatically assumes a triune god. In fact, there are major sects of christianity that deny the trinity and claim the father, the son, and the holy spirit are complete, separate, and unequal in power and existence.

Secondly, the Koran refers to the god of Abraham, as does the New Testament--three different belief systems sprung out of the same God concept. Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same god, but have differing opinions about him.

If somehow this were to happen, I think most people would believe although many would try to rationalise it. I'm sure such a miracle will be caught on film. It will be discussed in all the newspapers and on television shows. There will be many books written on it and in some places it'll even be added to school textbooks. After having their beliefs confirmed many people will have a stronger faith, and this will likely be passed onto their children. Of course, this will cause much confusion in later generations. Despite God being accepted as fact by many people, some will still not believe despite all the recent evidence. Even amongst those who believe in one true god, they will still disagree on which god it is and what he wants. I can't imagine it doing much good if he were to prove his existance. People have been getting along better than ever without religious beliefs, I don't want to see god come along and spoil everything. :(

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

At that point, I'd be pretty confident that I'm schizophrenic, since I already am suspicious that I have schizophrenia...

To be honest, from my understanding of miracles and tale-telling, the chances of God doing anything that violates the laws of physics, biology, or chemistry is pretty darn close to zero.

Well, that's what makes them miracles. If they happened routinely, they'd be current events.

All the laws of physics/nature stuff aside, even if a God(dess) did move the Atlantic Ocean to the Middle East and then go away for another 4000 years, I'd wonder why (s)he decided to move an ocean rather than stick around and stop all the religious crap.

You'd wonder why a god(ess) didn't cause there to be less religion?

I'm pretty sure that if I was an anthropomorphic manifestation of an abstract concept I'd try to encourage as much meditation on me as possible.

i would still not worship him.

no-one is worthy of worship. no exceptions.

I'm somewhat suspicious of this question, in that it leads to a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" type of deal.

If we say yes, we would believe, than the gnostic would be all "aha! my beliefs have been validated. Even the atheist would have to admit there is a god."

And if we say no, the gnostic would say "aha! these guys are so hard-nosed they won't believe no matter what! My beliefs have been validated."

See, the thing is. If he was God, what he said goes. The Judaic faith could have made some mistakes, y'know. If the real God came about and said "I am God. You will love your neighbour. I don't care about those people saying I should come from Solomon." and it turns out he was right, he is the God holding all the cards and you can whine all you want about it not being like prophesized in the Torah. If he wasn't God, well he won't tell you, now will he?

So all that nonsense about being "disqualified" is moot.

Judaism and Christianity both proclaim an 'eternal, unchanging' god. One that sets a plan in motion and follows through. The Jews are God's chosen people... Jesus continued that idea... so, we have to assume that God would not trick or cheat them.

Thus, the Old Testament prophecies are promises from God. If he 'changes his mind', he breaks his promise - as simple as that.

Jesus cannot have been Messiah for so many reasons - not least being the fact that the scripture says Messiah won't change the teachings of Judaism... and yet Jesus does.


So - you have the choice - was the Hebrew scripture true, in which case Jesus was not Messiah?

Or - is the Hebrew scripture full of mistakes, in which case being 'Messiah' MEANS nothing?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Just appearing, fiddling with nature, and disappearing wouldn't be good enough.

He would have to stick around long enough for me to ask him for two forms of identification and proof of residence. Then I would have to perform a background check, make sure we're not dealing with a case of identity theft here, and have him go through a series of tests to verify that his "miracles" weren't some fluke.

Once all of that is said and done, assuming he has proven himself sufficiently enough, I would have to ask him who was the closest. Mormons, Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants? Should I have been nicer to the Jehovah Witnesses? There's a whole list of questions. He'd have to spend quite some time clarifying things and I doubt any of this would ever happen anyhow.

Or - is the Hebrew scripture full of mistakes, in which case being 'Messiah' MEANS nothing?

Most likely. Either way, it means Jesus was not God.

Any rational atheist, I think, would then have to reexamine his absence of belief.

There's still no reason to worship the big git in the sky. But you might believe in him.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.
If God proved himself to exist faith would vanish because it no longer would be necessary. Everyone would be certain of God's existence for a couple of generations, but then when the generation that saw him died out, some of their descendants would continue to believe, but rely on faith, and some would lose all faith.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

I'd say "Bloody Hell! Looks like the Egyptians were right all along!"

Or, do you instanly assume that 'god' would match your little clique, if he/she/it were proved 'true'?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

If God made his existence plain to me, then of course I would believe.

That is what makes Christian faith so inconcievable to me, as God has made his non-existence rather plain.

Call me a stubborn arsehole, but I would call his bluff. Think about how inconcievable some of the things we can do with technology now was 30 years ago, or 50, or 500. Whats to say that god is just an entity of some sort with massively superior tech to us. Possibly an alien. I want real prrof, which is hard to give. I would consider if he began breaking the laws of logic and physics and such, y'know creating shapeless cubes and such. But even then, maybe our understanding of physics is just limited (definitely actually). I don't think you could convince me of a god at all. Not unless I saw him after dying, even then, life could be some kind of alien joke.

I cannot agree with an omnipotent being. Maybe very powerful, but not all-powerful. If god existed, there would be a limit to his power, and a way to kill him. He would just be a glorified alien.

Any rational atheist, I think, would then have to reexamine his absence of belief.

There's still no reason to worship the big git in the sky. But you might believe in him.
I guess this is a nicer way of saying what I attempted to say. I would probably believe he was real, but probably not believe that he was an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all-creator god.

I guess this is a nicer way of saying what I attempted to say. I would probably believe he was real, but probably not believe that he was an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all-creator god.

I took it to mean that there was no reason to worship an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator.

Yup I'd believe, but that's it. No worshipping, no changing of my lifestyle, no change in my opinion of religion in general; I'd just believe he's real.

I took it to mean that there was no reason to worship an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator.
Hey... I don't know you!

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Why not the Lady?

So called miracles are not and never should be a basis for faith. Something like that would only make me believe that something is out there that can do these things, not necessarily a deity. It would take a lot to convince me, not just some parlor tricks and a disappearing act.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Basically, you mean "If suddenly I was certain God existed. would I take up a Christian religion?"


Fuck no.

Lets all pretend that Religion (or specifically God) were an employer.
We hold our employers to MUCH higher standards than we do "God".

God doesnt pay you. It matters little if theres a spiritual reward, if your starving in the here and now.

God abuses you.
Natural disasters of all kinds, premature death of loved ones, you name it, people seem to be meant to suffer at the hands of "The Lord".

See what Im saying?

Now, take into consideration all the nasty, rotten shit that his very own Church does in his name.
Child molesting, covering up of those molestations, stealing, poor responsibility in terms of birth control...not to mention past deeds...

Look at the loudest represenatives of his faith.

Jerry Falwell?
Pat Robertson?
Fred Phelps?

THESE guys are doing "Gods Work" are they?

Now lets consider the religion itself:

Youre telling me I'm doomed to Hell, for a eternity of suffering, for nothing more than being born?
and the ONLY way to avoid that pre-determined, and wholly rediculous fate is to join the most notorious and corrupt group of fanatical religious zealots ever to walk the earth?

I say fuck it.

If the priests/ministers/whatever, and thier congregations are Gods represenatives on earth, I want absolutely NOTHING to do with him.

Its so easy for Christians to prance around saying "Jesus loves you, and forgives you"....but who forgives God?

Why doesnt God ask our forgiveness for nearly wiping out the Southern Gulf Coast a year ago, or why doesnt God apologize for killing thousands in a tsunami?
Or a Earthquake in Pakistan, or.....etc.

So becuase God "created" us, that gives him carte blanche to dispose of us like garbage, whenever he damn well feels?

Fuck that.
and fuck "Him".

[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches;11678789]*snip*[/QUOTESorry, but allow me to drift a little. You are basically saying that God does not have the right to treat his *sentient* creation how he pleases (morally, at least). I agree with you. But does that mean that you would support treating robots (or programs) with genuine sentience, that we created, with respect and as equals in terms of rights? How does that work when we can mass produce 'equal individuals'?

*snip*Sorry, but allow me to drift a little. You are basically saying that God does not have the right to treat his *sentient* creation how he pleases (morally, at least). I agree with you. But does that mean that you would support treating robots (or programs) with genuine sentience, that we created, with respect and as equals in terms of rights? How does that work when we can mass produce 'equal individuals'?

Bit too hypothetical of a question, since we dont have such artificial sentience.

To answer you would require its own thread, really.

If it makles it easier, I would say this:

"I wouldnt treat my dog the way God seems to treat humans...maybe thats becuase I love my dog."

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

That would be the tangible proof i was looking for and thus, yes, would belive in him.

Which, of course, automatically disqualifies him to be the Messiah. That is heresy within Judaism and totally against their belief in the nature of the Messiah; also, he wasn't a prophet and that further made his claim invalid.

Or did the Jews misunderstand the prophecies?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you. since no mystical entity has ever moved an ocean or two in the last 4 billion years why do you still cling to a belief in tooth fairies, easter bunnies and elves and other inventions of the human imgination?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Or I could just.. you know, get sober?

What If God Smoked Cannabis?

If God had long hair and a goatee
And if His eyes were pretty glazed
If He looked spaced-out
Would you buy His story
Would you believe He had an eye infection

And yeah, yeah, God looks baked
Yeah yeah God smells good
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah

What if God smoked Cannabis
Hit the bong like some of us
Drove a tye-died micro bus
And He subscribes to Rolling Stone

When God made this place in the beginning
Did He plant any seeds or did He put them there
For Adam and Eve so they'd be hungry
For the apple that the Snake
Was always offering

And yeah yeah God rolls great
Yeah yeah God smells good
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah

What if God smoked Cannabis
Do you suppose He had a buzz
When He made the platypus
When He created Earth our home
Does He like Pearl Jam or the Stones
And do you think He rolls His own
Up there in Heaven on the throne
And when the saints go marching home
Maybe He sits and smokes a bowl

since no mystical entity has ever moved an ocean or two in the last 4 billion years why do you still cling to a belief in tooth fairies, easter bunnies and elves and other inventions of the human imgination?

You might want to read up on the concept of a Hypothetical Question.

Or did the Jews misunderstand the prophecies?

And, if the Jews misunderstood the prophecy, that would mean their Hebrew scripture could be flawed, yes?

And, if their scripture is not perfect... who is this 'messiah' of which you speak?

I think people would be so overwhelmed by God that they would finally realise that such a wonderful and cosmic being would not care in the slightest what you believed, or who you rubbed genitals with, or if you danced on sundays.

Maybe we would all understand that all god cares about is for us to be happy. To do good. Avoid evil. To love one another.

But I don't think god would do that. I do not know the mind of god and am therefore hesitant to speak of Her mind, but perhaps god means us to learn this for ourselves.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

ill deal with that when it happens.

but really, if he dropped by this afternoon and rearranged the pacific rim (maybe he could finally get around to solving that volcano problem) how would i know that he then takes 4000 years off? im gonna be dead in 50?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.
You mean, "a being opens up the clouds...," don't you?

If a being were to do those neat things, I would say, "Neat! Neat being! Isn't that a neat being?"

Yes, my agnostic convictions would hold, because if a being did those neat things it pretty much proves he ain't god.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

????
If some entity did appear and do this, yes somehow i think i'd be impressed (duh).
But then we would need know if it was really god (as a/the creator).
If it was God, i would believe in his/her/its existance.
By why faith? all he did was a few really cool tricks. he never said there was an afterlife. or if there was, what was the criteria to be let in? there seems to be a few schools of thought on that one...

Judaism and Christianity both proclaim an 'eternal, unchanging' god. One that sets a plan in motion and follows through. The Jews are God's chosen people... Jesus continued that idea... so, we have to assume that God would not trick or cheat them.

Thus, the Old Testament prophecies are promises from God. If he 'changes his mind', he breaks his promise - as simple as that.

Jesus cannot have been Messiah for so many reasons - not least being the fact that the scripture says Messiah won't change the teachings of Judaism... and yet Jesus does.


So - you have the choice - was the Hebrew scripture true, in which case Jesus was not Messiah?

Or - is the Hebrew scripture full of mistakes, in which case being 'Messiah' MEANS nothing?
The hebrew scripture may be full of mistakes and Messiah may means nothing. What you and that other poster do is try to invalidate another faith based on your holy book. It can't work. Because the Bible just as clearly states that the Jews made a mistake and their faith is incomplete and the "seventh day advent hopists" claim both of your fait are wrong based on their holy book "the great poobah".

Any faith will tell the others are wrong. No, to invalidate a faith you have to show they are wrong using their holy book and not yours. As such, I reject the claims that Jesus cannot be the messiah when such claims are based on Torah basis.

I am more than willing to say "jesus was not God" but you have to show it to me using the Christian frame of reference. Prophecies and the very definition of what the Messiah is are based on jewish construct and cannot be used to disprove anything else than the jewish faith. Saying that Jews are God's chosen people is another jewish construct that cannot be used to invalidate any other faith than the Jewish one.

So all those "Jesus is not valid" claims are what I call nonsense because there IS an organised religion that claims he is and we have to use their book to show them the error of their way. And their holy book uses a lot of words to show you how he was a God made flesh.

But that is besides the point. The point was "if a being showed up with God-like powers, would you believe in a god". My answer is yes but I'd have a slew of questions for him, starting with: "So, what's the basic message and is there a faith that got it yet?" 'Cause you know that 95% of the world believe wrongly, regardless of who is right.

I would of probably said neat trick and where do I put the dollar for you to show me another?

Its all a matter of probability. Whatever God did, there will always be a more plausible explanation. Moving oceans and shit, that could just be aliens fucking with us, pretending to be God. Unlikely, I know. Ridiculous even, but still much more plausible.

Maybe we would all understand that all god cares about is for us to be happy. To do good. Avoid evil. To love one another.

And how do you come to that conclusion. It seems all the more likely that an infinite being has no care whatsoever for us.

Gawd isn't doing us any favours.

And how do you come to that conclusion. It seems all the more likely that an infinite being has no care whatsoever for us.

You arrive at conclusions through logic. You arrive at knowledge through experience.

I should therefore have said: if it were me, I could not help but become aware of this. But then again, I said that I do not know the mind of god. I can only surmise, based on my experience, that god would let us know that much when she reveals herself.

Well after those miracles he didn't demand that we worship Him so I guess it wouldn't change my daily life much. But there would never be another God vs. Evolution debate so that would definately be a good thing. :)

Or did the Jews misunderstand the prophecies?

The Jews seemed to have done a good job at interpreting prophecy and the Word of God over the thousands of years prior to Jesus, so I doubt they suddenly lost it at the same time as he was born. Also, interpretation of these prophecies continued after Christianity was an established religion; Maimonides' arguments in the Middle Ages are a particularly strong group of writings and they reflected extremely in-depth knowledge of Judaism and the prophecies surrounding the Messiah.

There's simply too much evidence and too many strong arguments from Jewish theologians to suggest they got it wrong. The only way they could have gotten it wrong is if the Torah was incorrect, and that would produce a lot bigger theological quandaries than whether or not Jesus was the Messiah.

Well after those miracles he didn't demand that we worship Him so I guess it wouldn't change my daily life much. But there would never be another God vs. Evolution debate so that would definately be a good thing. :)

Wanna bet? It would be a "Did God made evolution or was it just bunk?" debate.

Wanna bet? It would be a "Did God made evolution or was it just bunk?" debate.

Nasty thought. :p

The Bible says that God created the animals in a day so it would be interesting to see how God allowed evolution.

Nasty thought. :p

The Bible says that God created the animals in a day so it would be interesting to see how God allowed evolution.

Just because some god appears in the clouds doesn't mean the Bible still isn't a collection of fairy tales.

The god that appeared could be Baldr or freaking Serapis for all we know.

The hebrew scripture may be full of mistakes and Messiah may means nothing. What you and that other poster do is try to invalidate another faith based on your holy book. It can't work. Because the Bible just as clearly states that the Jews made a mistake and their faith is incomplete and the "seventh day advent hopists" claim both of your fait are wrong based on their holy book "the great poobah".

Any faith will tell the others are wrong. No, to invalidate a faith you have to show they are wrong using their holy book and not yours.

As a matter of curiousity... which faith am I? And - which is my holy book?

(Also... I was under the impression that the Old Testament scripture was considered part of the Bible...)

As a matter of curiousity... which faith am I? And - which is my holy book?

(Also... I was under the impression that the Old Testament scripture was considered part of the Bible...)

I don't know your faith. I was going by the impression you were jewish as you used mainly arguments I've heard from Jews before. It doesn't really matter what your faith is. My point is that to destroy the Christian God, you have to use the Christian Holy Book.

Also, being generally bad at religious study, I couldn't even begin to tell you which part of the torah has been used and put in the old testament by early christians (or was it Catholics then). When talking about the christian faith, I tend to go with the new testament where the teaching of Jesus is and not the backstory so much. After all, I don't give a flying fuck what Leviticus think is pure and impure. I do wear two different kind of fabrics.

Christian God=Yaweh=Allah.
Read more carefully, then stop dodging the question. I said:

For instance, to all the Christians: what would be your reaction to this same scenario if the being in question insisted that it was Allah? Or Gaia? Or Zeus?
So how about it? What if God showed up one day...and it turns out God is actually Aakuluujjusi the Mother Goddess of Creation, as the Inuit people believe? What if it turns out that the Greeks were right, and Zeus shows up to say hello one afternoon?

What the hell are you talking about?! I did do that 4000 years ago, and doing that kind of stuff doesnt impress people anymore. If you wanna prove yourself God to this generation you'd have to do something like win an all out halo 2 battle royal on the internet or something, or maybe just make the media dissapear.

So how about it? What if God showed up one day...and it turns out God is actually Aakuluujjusi the Mother Goddess of Creation, as the Inuit people believe? What if it turns out that the Greeks were right, and Zeus shows up to say hello one afternoon?

I'd be pretty damn happy...although I don't really need proof, it would be cool.

I'd be pretty damn happy...although I don't really need proof, it would be cool.
Better watch out, 'cause Zeus likes to take on the aspect of a bull or a swan and go around raping mortals...there are downsides to every diety...

Better watch out, 'cause Zeus likes to take on the aspect of a bull or a swan and go around raping mortals...there are downsides to every diety...

Yeah, the Ganymede affair was a little rough, too.... "Cupbearer" my ass. But then again, I'm more devoted to Pan and Artemis than Zeus so maybe I'll avoid his "attention"?

Still, it would be cool any way you look at it. Perhaps the reason why this stuff doesn't happen anymore is because we've stopped worshipping the Gods who did it in the first place...

If there were a god he wouldn't wait four thousand years to prove his existance.

Better watch out, 'cause Zeus likes to take on the aspect of a bull or a swan and go around raping mortals...there are downsides to every diety...

Given the proclivity of some religious groups to deny outright evidence I have no doubt that should Zeus show himself to be the one true god that they'd denouce him.

Given the proclivity of some religious groups to deny outright evidence I have no doubt that should Zeus show himself to be the one true god that they'd denouce him.
The thing is, I honestly want to know what believers would do.

If a being shows up on Earth claiming to be God and pretty conclusively demonstrates that it has god-like powers, are you going to worship it even if it is not the God that you've been taught to follow? What would it take for you to give up your own god-beliefs in favor of following the god who appeared on Earth?

Given the proclivity of some religious groups to deny outright evidence I have no doubt that should Zeus show himself to be the one true god that they'd denouce him.

It'd really blow their minds when they realize that there are at least twelve true Gods that they have to respect, and would drive them apoplectic when they realize that there are Goddesses that are also Gods deserving of respect. I don't even know how they'd deal with the fact that polytheistic beliefs are syncretic and can accomodate other beliefs rather than having to convince others that their beliefs are true.

Jehovah/Allah becomes Zeus as worshipped by the Jews and Muslims, and Jesus becomes Dionysos as worshipped by the Christians...the "one true" God is washed away in a (rather humbling) syncreticism. Of course, the benefit is that there is no longer the same religious conflict since all religions can be folded together fairly easily.

And I think it would mess them up even further when they realize that the Gods don't care about faith in the Gods' existence as much as they do moderation, respect for the Gods and hospitality towards others...those televangelists living in mansions and driving SUVs purchased with the donations of their followers would have a rather ironic downfall. It would be a perfect example of hubris as shown in Greek tragedies...

The thing is, I honestly want to know what believers would do.

If a being shows up on Earth claiming to be God and pretty conclusively demonstrates that it has god-like powers, are you going to worship it even if it is not the God that you've been taught to follow? What would it take for you to give up your own god-beliefs in favor of following the god who appeared on Earth?

Probably get a different answer from everyone you ask. I find the idea of a god to be a concept I can't quite accept. That some entity is just capable of completely re-arranging the entire cosmos at a whim is somewhat horrifying. I'd want to know how it worked, how it came to be, how long it'd lived, or if time even meant anything to it.

The thing is, I honestly want to know what believers would do.

If a being shows up on Earth claiming to be God and pretty conclusively demonstrates that it has god-like powers, are you going to worship it even if it is not the God that you've been taught to follow? What would it take for you to give up your own god-beliefs in favor of following the god who appeared on Earth?

The problem is that for any true-believer this question is meaningless, because true belief is founded on faith, not proof. What you're talking about is a bunch of evidence that you see as conclusive, but still probably wouldn't change the mind of a true believer because the source of that belief isn't something that can be atrificially replicated.

If you're talking about some hypothetical reality where that alien being IS the one responsible for the Bible and all that, then I say that's a reality without any true believers, because the source of faith wouldn't exist.

Probably get a different answer from everyone you ask.
I would expect so.

Some atheists say that they choose not to follow a given religion (or a particular vision of God) because they think that the religion proposes a God who is an asshole. Around here, this usually takes the form of people explaining why the Christian God is a jerk and therefore Christianity is stupid.

Believers usually object to this line of reasoning. However, what would a believer do if it turned out there IS a God, but he's a total asshole? What if there is a God, but She doesn't agree with your values and morals? What if there is a Creator to whom you owe your existence, but it wants you to spend the rest of your life drowning puppies and kicking old ladies down the stairs?

:D had a funny thought.

imaging if god did part the clouds and spoke.

"MY CHILDREN" (good would have a booming voice) " I appear now after countless eons for you to rejoice! I bring you and all your parted souls internal life in heaven"
"Heed these words my Saurian children and you shall......."
"WHAT THE HELL ARE THOSE FUZZY APES DOING EVERYWHERE??????"
"DAMN"
"That'll teach me to leave leave a mess after creation with all those bloody asteriods and such around...oh well"

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

This has been done before.
The general response was, "I still wouldnt worship him because even IF he exists, God is a jerk."
Nice try though.

I somewhat agree with this. If god did as you suggest & prove to me that he exists, it doesn't neccessarily follow that I would then worship him. I would most likely accept his existance, but I don't think I would join his religion.

The thing is, I honestly want to know what believers would do.

If a being shows up on Earth claiming to be God and pretty conclusively demonstrates that it has god-like powers, are you going to worship it even if it is not the God that you've been taught to follow? What would it take for you to give up your own god-beliefs in favor of following the god who appeared on Earth?
The problem with "god-like powers" is that god only has one power, and that's the power to remain unknowable to us, and he exercises it every day.

All other "god-like powers" are part of the Image of God and they differ from god to god, and change from generation to generation, and from culture to culture.

I don't know your faith. I was going by the impression you were jewish as you used mainly arguments I've heard from Jews before. It doesn't really matter what your faith is. My point is that to destroy the Christian God, you have to use the Christian Holy Book.

Also, being generally bad at religious study, I couldn't even begin to tell you which part of the torah has been used and put in the old testament by early christians (or was it Catholics then). When talking about the christian faith, I tend to go with the new testament where the teaching of Jesus is and not the backstory so much. After all, I don't give a flying fuck what Leviticus think is pure and impure. I do wear two different kind of fabrics.

The reason you have heard those arguments from Jews before, is because they were valid arguments when the Jews make them.

If the Old Testament scripture (which is a Hebrew scripture) sets out the requirements of Messiah, and Jesus fails to match those requirements... then he isn't the Messiah as defined by the Hebrew scripture.

Does that mean he can't be Messiah? Well - the Hebrew scripture is used IN the New Testament as justification for claims of Messianic nature....

Which gives us a problem - because the New Testament can ONLY claim Jesus as Messiah, IF the Old Testament is correct. And, if the Old Testament IS correct... Jesus doesn't make it.

On the other hand... maybe the Old Testament scripture is wrong? But then - since that is the EVIDENCE that Jesus is 'messiah'... there is no EVIDENCE if we accept the Hebrew scripture as wrong.

(By the way - I'm not Jewish, though I do have Jewish family).

Even if God was real, I wouldn't worship him. He punished Adam and Eve for eating the Apple of Knowledge. He says "If you don't follow my religion, you go to hell." And he could have been nicer to the Egyptians.

Even if God was real, I wouldn't worship him. He punished Adam and Eve for eating the Apple of Knowledge. He says "If you don't follow my religion, you go to hell." And he could have been nicer to the Egyptians.

I agree. If he does exist, he has a lot to explain.

Cool, I exist! Plus, God says you have to be married to have sex. I'm probably never going to get married anyway (I can't even ask a girl out), so I figure, I should get some sex in anyway.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Okay, let's assume that the clouds "open up," some being proclaims from the heavens that he/she/it is "God," moves around the oceans and then disappears.

As an atheist, I would assume that there is a perfectly natural explanation for all of this. Failing all else, I might admit that some ET with super-advanced technology had played a ridiculous practical joke on humankind. While I'm not the sort to go leaping to conclusions about aliens, at least that explanation would have the virtue of avoiding any unnecessary metaphysical nonsense and god-making.

I would certainly be impressed and intrigued by any being capable of doing what you describe. However, I would still have no reason to assume that said being was the God described by any particular human religion, nor would I have any particular reason to trust any other human's assumptions about what that being does or does not want.

Absolutely right.

Consider a flea who could somehow "see" a human being in action, doing "impossible" things.

Are we "gods" to this flea?

Are we anymore "gods" than we were before being observed by the flea?


Do you mean, would my lack of belief in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever diety still remain? Absolutely. I would have no more reason to believe that any of these faiths were relevant to the being I had just observed than I would have reason to believe the teachings of any of the other many human faiths that have existed over time.

Absolutely right!

What about the most remote human being on earth, who happens to be a mostly ignored small child out playing by herself on some extremely remote part of her island.

What "supreme being" would she relate this event with? Does her tribe have a "supreme being"? If not, what would this "god" be? If so, would this "god" contradict anything about the tribal belief?

What if it were, to her, simply an "Oooo.. nifty thing in the sky! Just as nifty as that big waggly-tailed thing that came out of the jungle the other day, and that volcano-mountain-fire-belchy thing that happened last month. Now, what shall I find for dinner...?"


I would have no reason to assume that the being I witnessed was a god, any more than I would have reason to assume it was a devil. I would have no reason to assume it was omnipotent, omnicient, good, evil, or anything beyond what I observed. If it decided not to communicate with me, I would have no reason to leap to any assumptions about its desires in regards to me.

I am not capable of performing miracles. I would be very interested in any being who could do so. However, the ability to perform miracles and the inclination to declare oneself a god do not necessarily prove that such a being is worthy of worship. I would require more information.

Some people are utterly immune from awe,.. or so they profess.

Of course, I don't believe such people for a minute,.. but they are fun to watch over time, as they either wither or blossom. :)


-Iakeo

:D had a funny thought.

imaging if god did part the clouds and spoke.

"MY CHILDREN" (good would have a booming voice) " I appear now after countless eons for you to rejoice! I bring you and all your parted souls internal life in heaven"
"Heed these words my Saurian children and you shall......."
"WHAT THE HELL ARE THOSE FUZZY APES DOING EVERYWHERE??????"
"DAMN"
"That'll teach me to leave leave a mess after creation with all those bloody asteriods and such around...oh well"
You win the thread :D

I'd punch God in the face.

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

I'm an avid secular (but not atheist) advocate of peace, approachment and understanding between all religions.

Such a display would probably end up causing more violent strife than bringing in new beleivers in christian/abrahamic religions.

Besides, don't you christian theology demand faith - that is, believe in this supreme being even in the absence of objective evidence?

I'm pretty sure Unicron could make a flashier entrance.

I'm pretty sure Unicron could make a flashier entrance.

No... Megatron (http://www.transfan-asylum.org/art/pics/megatron.jpg) is God.

All Hail Megatron!

I'm an avid secular (but not atheist) advocate of peace, approachment and understanding between all religions.

Such a display would probably end up causing more violent strife than bringing in new beleivers in christian/abrahamic religions.

Besides, don't you christian theology demand faith - that is, believe in this supreme being even in the absence of objective evidence?

No, that is just their flimsy justification as to why there aren't any more miracles. None of the characters in the bible exhibited faith, as they were all demonstrated miracles and such. Funny that all the miracles stopped when widespread recorded history began. Also funny that all of the miracles occured in the gaps between what recorded history there was.

I am not as pacificistic as you in these circumstances. I am an atheist and I think it is about time the human race got over the religion thing. We don't need it anymore. It was fun while it lasted, but now we need to move on and stop playing around with fairytales. We need to elevate ourselves to the next stage of philosophical maturity. As such, you could call me an aggressive atheist.

No, that is just their flimsy justification as to why there aren't any more miracles. None of the characters in the bible exhibited faith, as they were all demonstrated miracles and such. Funny that all the miracles stopped when widespread recorded history began. Also funny that all of the miracles occured in the gaps between what recorded history there was.

I am not as pacificistic as you in these circumstances. I am an atheist and I think it is about time the human race got over the religion thing. We don't need it anymore. It was fun while it lasted, but now we need to move on and stop playing around with fairytales. We need to elevate ourselves to the next stage of philosophical maturity. As such, you could call me an aggressive atheist.

"Fun while it lasted" though? Not for a lot of people...even till today. :p

Yeah I know what you're saying.

I suppose I mean in retrospect, eh? I mean I love the Catholic Church in the middle-ages. They totally pwned everybody. It didn't matter if you were a king, a pauper, or a prepubecent little boy. Chances are you were taking it up the backside from the church, doubly so in the case of the lattermost example.

That being said, I wouldn't want to live in it. Even if I was the one sodomising the masses and wearing the cloth. But yeah, egyptian, Islam, Greek/romans, Celts, Norse, Persian, Chinese mysticism, Hinduism were all cool. Cool like the 80's. Cool like you might have a retro party once a year or something, but you aren't going to keep doing it everyday. It's over, and people just need to let go. If they can do it for the 80's, they can do it for religion. The two are no less wrong than each other, and both deserve a dignified burial.

*snip* If they can do it for the 80's, they can do it for religion. The two are no less wrong than each other, and both deserve a dignified burial.

LMFAO! :p

Sigworthy.

beliving in god means having faith. faith is what faith is: you belive in something that is hard to belive in. now i have a question: would you start beliving in god if he would appear?

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

If suddenly the heavens opened up and God came fourth and started speaking and doing this and that and what not I think my agnosticism would pretty much remove itself by default. However, if he vanished for another 4,000 years I couldn't blame those 2000 years later who never witnessed it for being skeptical.

beliving in god means having faith. faith is what faith is: you belive in something that is hard to belive in. now i have a question: would you start beliving in god if he would appear?

First of all, no. Today, believing in god means having faith. According to the bible, back then believing in god meant having fully functional senses. God was not hard for anyone in the bible to believe, because he was all over the place smiting and healing and writing tablets of stone, and plagueing entire races with curses. If you didn't believe in god then, you were a numbskull (operating on the false premise that the bible stories are in fact true). These days you have to take the word of a guy with a tucked in shirt and stupid haircut that the words of some guys without any shirts or haircuts is some kind of cosmic message from a malevolent being in the clouds who is apparently in his twilight years (Judging from the pretty slack job he made of the last millenia compared to the several before it).

Second of all, no. Well, yes, but no. I would believe in god if you could prove his existence and status as an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god. However I believe that this can't be done, as any display of power, no matter how inconcievable it could be to me, could just be from some kind of post-singularity technology. Think how inconcievable most of our technology would be to someone from 50 years ago, or 100, or 500, or 2000. Whats to say that the individual claiming to be god isn't just some alien with hot techs? Remember Ockham's razor, "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity" That is the simplest explanation (in terms of the number of assumptions required in its formation) is the most likely. Every explanation is simpler than the idea that everything was assumedly a consequence of an undetectable omnigod. You would have to exhaust each one of those options before I would come around to believing. And thats not even worship...

Say the lord opens up the clouds and proclaims that he is the real deal, does a couple of miracles such as moves an ocean or two and then disappears for another 4000 years, would you be that impressed? would you Unfaith hold? or would you scoff and say "I couldve done THAT."
if so, good for you.

Whoa man. Flame alert.

Anyways, I'm agnostic. That means I believe there is a god, I just don't wish to label it, as I have not seen him myself. If I see him, then that's something I can label him with. I don't have "unfaith", I simply have "unknowledge".

*snip*Sorry, but allow me to drift a little. You are basically saying that God does not have the right to treat his *sentient* creation how he pleases (morally, at least). I agree with you. But does that mean that you would support treating robots (or programs) with genuine sentience, that we created, with respect and as equals in terms of rights? How does that work when we can mass produce 'equal individuals'?

We better damn well treat them as equals or we end up as their power supply ;)

Cool, I exist! Plus, God says you have to be married to have sex. I'm probably never going to get married anyway (I can't even ask a girl out), so I figure, I should get some sex in anyway.
Totally off-topic, but I think it's cool (and old-fashioned) that you think you have to ask a girl out.

I'd punch God in the face.
And I'd hold him down for you.

I'd probably think something along the lines of "Huh, god eh?" and then proceed to live my life exactly as I did before only with the knowledge that apparently there is some sort of god-entity.
Methinks that would be my most likely reaction.

Even If he /Does/ exist he aint getting me to worship him. He's an idiot.

Also, let's point out the fact that according to most religious texts, most gods or God is an asshole. So I would probably go up to him and kick him the nads.