NationStates Jolt Archive

Lappin, Elena. "The Enemy Within." The New York Times. Section 7; Column 1; Pg. 15. 23 May 2004. 3 September 2006 LexisNexis Academic.

if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide"

"IN THE PARTY OF GOD Are terrorists in Lebanon preparing for a larger war?", The New Yorker, October 14, 2002. Retrieved on 2006-08-21.

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli"

Adam Shatz, New York Review of Books, April 29, 2004 In Search of Hezbollah Accessed August 15, 2006

"in occupied Palestine there is no difference between a soldier and a civilian, for they are all invaders, occupiers and usurpers of the land;"

And is Hamas, another "resistance" organization any less sanquine?

Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the apocalyptic hadith alluded to earlier: “The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).

Article 28 specifically targets "all Jews".

Still think that "all these guys want is Palestine, and they'll be happy to send Jews off on cruise ships to Europe"?

No, as Nasrallah says, it's going to be easier if the Jews all come there.

They probably hate all Jews, but I doubt they would commit any serious action against them outside of Israel, as long as the Israeli-Arab conflict continues.

Whatever my faults, I do know when to concede defeat. And I do hereby concede defeat.

For DK, a cookie.

They want to wipe out all Jews. Not entirely sure why, but who really cares? They're nuts.

They probably hate all Jews, but I doubt they would commit any serious action against them outside of Israel, as long as the Israeli-Arab conflict continues.

They already have hit targets outside Isreal. Argentina for one.

Whatever my faults, I do know when to concede defeat. And I do hereby concede defeat.

For DK, a cookie.

:fluffle:

It's the hats.

"If you see two groups of people who really hate eachother, chances are good that they're wearing different kinds of hats. Pay attention to that. It might be important." -George Carlin

Lappin, Elena. "The Enemy Within." The New York Times. Section 7; Column 1; Pg. 15. 23 May 2004. 3 September 2006 LexisNexis Academic.



"IN THE PARTY OF GOD Are terrorists in Lebanon preparing for a larger war?", The New Yorker, October 14, 2002. Retrieved on 2006-08-21.



Adam Shatz, New York Review of Books, April 29, 2004 In Search of Hezbollah Accessed August 15, 2006



And is Hamas, another "resistance" organization any less sanquine?



Article 28 specifically targets "all Jews".

like you say.. Warez da links?

like you say.. Warez da links?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Does this answer your question ?


Our Objectives
Let us put it truthfully: the sons of Hizhallah know who are their major enemies in the Middle East - the Phalanges, Israel, France and the US. The sons of our umma are now in a state of growing confrontation with them, and will remain so until the realization of the following three objectives:

(a) to expel the Americans. the French and their allies definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity on our land;
(b) to submit the Phalanges to a just power and bring them all to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated against Muslims and Christians;
(c) to permit all the sons of our people to determine their future and to choose in all the liberty the form of government they desire. We call upon all of them to pick the option of Islamic government which, alone, is capable of guaranteeing justice and liberty for all. Only an Islamic regime can stop any further tentative attempts of imperialistic infiltration into our country.
These are Lebanon's objectives; those are its enemies. As for our friends, they are all the world's oppressed peoples. Our friends are also those who combat our enemies and who defend us from their evil. Towards these friends, individuals as well as organizations, we turn and say:
Friends, wherever you are in Lebanon... we are in agreement with you on the great and necessary objectives: destroying American hegemony in our land; putting an end to the burdensome Israeli Occupation; beating back all the Phalangists' attempts to monopolize power and administration.
Even though we have, friends, quite different viewpoints as to the means of the struggle, on the levels upon which it must be carried out, we should surmount these tiny divergencies and consolidate cooperation between us in view of the grand design.
We are an umma which adheres to the message of Islam. We want all the oppressed to be able to study the divine message in order to bring justice, peace and tranquillity to the world. This is why we don't want to impose Islam upon anybody, as much as we that others impose upon us their convictions and their political systems. We don't want Islam to reign in Lebanon by force as is the case with the Maronites today. This is the minimum that we can accept in order to be able to accede by legal means to realize our ambitions, to save Lebanon from its dependence upon East and West, to put an end to foreign occupation and to adopt a regime freely wanted by the people of Lebanon.
This is our perception of the present state of affairs. This is the Lebanon we envision. In the light of our conceptions, our opposition to the present system is the function of two factors; (1) the present regime is the product of an arrogance so unjust that no reform or modification can remedy it. It should be changed radically, and (2) World Imperialism which is hostile to Islam.

We consider that all opposition in Lebanon voiced in the name of reform can only profit, ultimately, the present system. All such opposition which operates within the framework of the conservation and safeguarding of the present constitution without demanding changes at the level of the very foundation of the regime is, hence, an opposition of pure formality which cannot satisfy the interests of the oppressed masses. Likewise, any opposition which confronts the present regime but within the limits fixed by it, is an illusory opposition which renders a great service to the Jumayyil system. Moreover, we cannot be concerned by any proposition of political reform which accepts the rotten system actually in effect. We could not care less about the creation of this or that governmental coalition or about the participation of this or that political personality in some ministerial post, which is but a part of this unjust regime.

The politics followed by the chiefs of political Maronism through the 'Lebanese Front' and the 'Lebanese Forces' cannot guarantee peace and tranquillity for the Christians of Lebanon, whereas it is predicated upon 'asabiyya (narrow-minded particularism), on confessional privileges and on the alliance with colonialism. The Lebanese crisis has proven that confessional privileges are one of the principal causes of the great explosion which ravaged the country. It also proved that outside help was of no use to the Christians of Lebanon, just when they need it most. The bell tolled for the fanatic Christians to rid themselves of denominational allegiance and of illusion deriving from the monopolization of privileges to the detriment of other communities. The Christians should answer the appeal from heaven and have recourse to reason instead of arms, to persuasion instead of confessionalism.

To the Christians
If you, Christians, cannot tolerate that Muslims share with you certain domains of government, Allah has also made it intolerable for Muslims to participate in an unjust regime, unjust for you and for us, in a regime which is not predicated upon the prescriptions (ahkam) of religion and upon the basis of the Law (the Shari’a) as laid down by Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets. If you search for justice, who is more just than Allah? It is He who sent down from the sky the message of Islam through his successive prophets in order that they judge the people and give everyone his rights. If you were deceived and misled into believing that we anticipate vengeance against you - your fears are unjustified. For those of you who are peaceful, continue to live in our midst without anybody even thinking to trouble you.

We don't wish you evil. We call upon you to embrace Islam so that you can be happy in this world and the next. If you refuse to adhere to Islam, maintain your ties with the Muslims and don't take part in any activity against them. Free yourselves from the consequences of hateful confessionalism. Banish from your hearts all fanaticism and parochialism. Open your hearts to our Call (da'wa) which we address to you. Open yourselves up to Islam where you'll find salvation and happiness upon earth and in the hereafter. We extend this invitation also to all the oppressed among the non-Muslims. As for those who belong to Islam only formally, we exhort them to adhere to Islam in religious practice and to renounce all fanaticisms which are rejected by our religion.

World Scene
We reject both the USSR and the US, both Capitalism and Communism, for both are incapable of laying the foundations for a just society.

With special vehemence we reject UNIFIL as they were sent by world arrogance to occupy areas evacuated by Israel and serve for the latter as a buffer zone. They should be treated much like the Zionists. All should know that the goals of the Phalangists regime do not carry any weight with the Combatants of the Holy War, i.e., the Islamic resistance. This is the quagmire which awaits all foreign intervention.

There, then, are our conceptions and our objectives which serve as our basis and inspire our march. Those who accept them should know that all rights belong to Allah and He bestows them. Those who reject them, we'll be patient with them, till Allah decides between us and the people of injustice.

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.


I cant find any Hezbollah position ...unless you consider the President of Iran and some of his mullah buddies..that call for the destruction of the "Jews " as a people..just the destruction of Israel.

Not that they would mind a few million dead jews while it happened ..but it doesnt seem to be a prerequisit.

They already have hit targets outside Isreal. Argentina for one.

Doesn't count as serious action. I was talking about a 'proper' terrorist campaign.

Does this answer your question ?

I cant find any Hezbollah position ...unless you consider the President of Iran and some of his mullah buddies..that call for the destruction of the "Jews " as a people..just the destruction of Israel.

Not that they would mind a few million dead jews while it happened ..but it doesnt seem to be a prerequisit.

You need to read their apocalyptic writings about the end of the Jews. How they'll hunt them down, and kill every last one.

They've been more careful for PR reasons in some documents, but it slips through.

Lappin, Elena. "The Enemy Within." The New York Times. Section 7; Column 1; Pg. 15. 23 May 2004. 3 September 2006 LexisNexis Academic.



"IN THE PARTY OF GOD Are terrorists in Lebanon preparing for a larger war?", The New Yorker, October 14, 2002. Retrieved on 2006-08-21.



Adam Shatz, New York Review of Books, April 29, 2004 In Search of Hezbollah Accessed August 15, 2006



And is Hamas, another "resistance" organization any less sanquine?



Article 28 specifically targets "all Jews".

Still think that "all these guys want is Palestine, and they'll be happy to send Jews off on cruise ships to Europe"?

No, as Nasrallah says, it's going to be easier if the Jews all come there.


Hamas is not Hezbollah .

Hamas is not Hezbollah .

I know that. Some of those are Hezbollah quotes. Others are Hamas.

They are joined by a common apocalyptic vision of the fate of the Jews.

You need to read their apocalyptic writings about the end of the Jews. How they'll hunt them down, and kill every last one.

They've been more careful for PR reasons in some documents, but it slips through.


I have read transcripts of speeches of those " associated" with Hezbollah , that get all flowery about killing the infidel jews and such ..but thats almost normal for an arab or Muslim leader in that part of the world..they do tend to speak in hyperbole..and the language does't translate well to english .

GIVING a HUGE benifit of the doubt..I think as an organization the Hezbollah would be happy just to se Israel go away...even if not a single Jew died.
BUT ..thats just hezbollah..then you have the rest of them that want all NON Islamic cultures destroyed like virus....they are alittle bit more nutty.
Hezbollah is one of the saner nuts .

I have read transcripts of speeches of those " associated" with Hezbollah , that get all flowery about killing the infidel jews and such ..but thats almost normal for an arab or Muslim leader in that part of the world..they do tend to speak in hyperbole..and the language does't translate well to english .

GIVING a HUGE benifit of the doubt..I think as an organization the Hezbollah would be happy just to se Israel go away...even if not a single Jew died.
BUT ..thats just hezbollah..then you have the rest of them that want all NON Islamic cultures destroyed like virus....they are alittle bit more nutty.
Hezbollah is one of the saner nuts .

As I can't link to the television, I can't give you a direct quote, I recall a specific video of Hiz'bo'allah leader Hassan Nasrallah giving a speech in which he proclaims that it is the destiny of Hiz'bo'allah to rule over Britain and America. Horrendously unrealistic, but the words came from his mouth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/your OP quotes..
#1 The New York Times.
#2 Hezbollah official charter.
#3 Hamas official charter.

I have not seen any direct links to those.. and since you are quoting them on your OP.

unless you dont have the Links.. ;)

Still think that "all these guys want is Palestine, and they'll be happy to send Jews off on cruise ships to Europe"?

No, as Nasrallah says, it's going to be easier if the Jews all come there.

Do you have any constructive proposals how to solve the problem, or are you just ranting against those who advocate dialog and investigation into alternative (and if possible peaceful) solutions instead of violence again?

I recall a specific video of Hiz'bo'allah leader Hassan Nasrallah giving a speech in which he proclaims that it is the destiny of Hiz'bo'allah to rule over Britain and America. Horrendously unrealistic, but the words came from his mouth.warez da Links?As I can't link to the television, I can't give you a direct quote, I ....you are starting to sound like good ol' DK. and No, I am not saying you are him
like when good ol' DK says: "their President said Iran-will-wipe-out-Israel"

As I can't link to the television, I can't give you a direct quote, I recall a specific video of Hiz'bo'allah leader Hassan Nasrallah giving a speech in which he proclaims that it is the destiny of Hiz'bo'allah to rule over Britain and America. Horrendously unrealistic, but the words came from his mouth.



Almost all the radical islamic groups see it as the destiny of the Islamic people to rule over the world not just America and britain but everyone .
Its like the first rule of joining the club . the second rule is " see the first rule " .

your OP quotes..
#1 The New York Times.
#2 Hezbollah official charter.
#3 Hamas official charter.

I have not seen any direct links to those.. and since you are quoting them on your OP.

unless you dont have the Links.. ;)

Last I checked, it's more than a bit rough to link to a piece of paper, as is the case with the Times, and if the article is more than a certain amount of time old, you must pay to access it online.

warez da Links?
As I've said, one cannot very easily link to television.



you are starting to sound like DK.

There are far more resources out there than just the internet, and not all information is available on the internet. What a shocker.

Do you have any constructive proposals how to solve the problem, or are you just ranting against those who advocate dialog and investigation into alternative (and if possible peaceful) solutions instead of violence again?

I'm saying that giving them land isn't going to satisfy them.

Recent remarks by Hezbollah about the contested Shebaa Farms is indicative of this. They say that even if they are given Shebaa Farms, they will not stop fighting and killing.

I'm saying that the "constructive" proposal of giving them land is a bullshit idea that won't solve anything.

They also explicitly reject any negotiations with Israel or any Jews. So, before we start with constructive proposals, how about you come up with an idea that will get them to the table in the first place?

Your turn.

Almost all the radical islamic groups see it as the destiny of the Islamic people to rule over the world not just America and britain but everyone .
Its like the first rule of joining the club . the second rule is " see the first rule " .

It's just dick-waving, that's all. I'll sleep safely in my bed tonight. In any case, we once ruled half the middle east anyway (and France had the other half), so he's bound to bring that kind of thing up anyway.

warez da Links?you are starting to sound like good ol' DK.

like when good ol' DK says: "their President said Iran-will-wipe-out-Israel"

Well, he did.

I have a couple of acquaintances - one a pretty good friend, actually - from the UAE. They're good people, and while they have problems with how Israel was created, they're more than willing to say it wasn't the current generation's fault or hold it against the modern Israelis.

But we bumped into a big cultural wall a few years ago, with the invasion of Afghanistan. They just couldn't believe the US had gone through with it, and as the only American they know, asked me about it.

At first I couldn't see why they were so stunned. "President Bush has been making it clear that they're going to go after al Qaeda no matter where they are since the 9/11 attacks," I said. "Why are you so surprised that he did just what he said he'd do?"

Well, according to them, their politicians at home regularly indulge in over-the-top hyperbole, threatening everybody and their mother, just to make a point.

I pointed out that most western politicians tend to, if anything, understate things for emphasis.

The next day, one of my friends phoned Iraq and told his brother to get out of the country. Lucky for him.

After having gone through the arduous action of copying and pasting into google, I have come across several sources...

http://www.npr.org/programs/day/transcripts/2006/jul/060718.gerges.html

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1833381,00.html

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17060

http://www.annaqed.com/english/politics/the_tide_may_be_turning.html

Last I checked, it's more than a bit rough to link to a piece of paper, as is the case with the Times, and if the article is more than a certain amount of time old, you must pay to access it online.my 8 years old cousin found the WWW links to the Ossama 911 victory tapes.

I am sure the OP can find the official charters.

After having gone through the arduous action of copying and pasting into google, I have come across several sources...

http://www.npr.org/programs/day/transcripts/2006/jul/060718.gerges.html

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1833381,00.html

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17060

http://www.annaqed.com/english/politics/the_tide_may_be_turning.html

Now after all of that, don't you wish you had spent your time talking about chicken pot pies instead? :)

Unfortunately not all of the links are as desirable as I'd like, but that's so often the way of things.

Now after all of that, don't you wish you had spent your time talking about chicken pot pies instead? :)

I always wish I'd spent my time talking about chicken pot pie, even when I'm talking about chicken pot pie, I don't seem to be able to get out all I want to say about chicken pot pie. If only everyone had more chicken pot pie. :D

I always wish I'd spent my time talking about chicken pot pie, even when I'm talking about chicken pot pie, I don't seem to be able to get out all I want to say about chicken pot pie. If only everyone had more chicken pot pie. :D

At least we wouldn't be hungry.

I'm saying that giving them land isn't going to satisfy them.

Recent remarks by Hezbollah about the contested Shebaa Farms is indicative of this. They say that even if they are given Shebaa Farms, they will not stop fighting and killing.

I'm saying that the "constructive" proposal of giving them land is a bullshit idea that won't solve anything.

Few people of sound mind say that. The history of violence and revenge has been going on for far too long, it can't be settled simply by meeting the original demands. There will be too many open bills still.

However, meeting their some of their more rational and founded demands is a good way of calming the waves.


They also explicitly reject any negotiations with Israel or any Jews. So, before we start with constructive proposals, how about you come up with an idea that will get them to the table in the first place?

Your turn.

See above ;)
Keep in mind, the people you quote represent the most extreme position. Imagine quoteing Fred Phelbs as a representative of the stance of the Western world regarding homosexuality...
I'm not saying that these views aren't shared by a good few people. And I'm not saying that I have a foolproof recipe on how to restore peace in the Middle East. But it is my impression that what is needed most is an arbitrator, one who is respected by both sides, one who can listen and is listened to.
I've no idea who this could be, but the US and most of the EU will definitely not be seen as arbitrator but as agressor, thereby worsening every conflict they get involved in.

*shrug

Maybe we could get Liechtenstein to talk to them...

They probably hate all Jews, but I doubt they would commit any serious action against them outside of Israel, as long as the Israeli-Arab conflict continues.
They already have, in Argentina.

Do you have any constructive proposals how to solve the problem, or are you just ranting against those who advocate dialog and investigation into alternative (and if possible peaceful) solutions instead of violence again?
I wouldn't call Hamas and Hezbollah groups that want peaceful solutions.

I wouldn't call Hamas and Hezbollah groups that want peaceful solutions.

Neither would I.