NationStates Jolt Archive

So I've been reading through another one of those religious threads, and one thing keep popping out: nobody seems to have a clear view of what exactly is necessary in the Christian faith for salvation.

The bible is nowhere near as clear on this issue as many would like to believe. In fact, Shakespeare's famous play "King Lear" was written to deal with this issue.

Are we saved by grace alone? By faith alone? Some combination of the two? Myrth?

I would like to hear some responses on the varying views on this issue. If possible, I would prefer a reference to the scripture point, simply because what the bible seems to say and what it does say are often two completely different things. Seeing what passages you draw your belief from would help me to better understand the thought process that went into it.

So I've been reading through another one of those religious threads, and one thing keep popping out: nobody seems to have a clear view of what exactly is necessary in the Christian faith for salvation.

The bible is nowhere near as clear on this issue as many would like to believe. In fact, Shakespeare's famous play "King Lear" was written to deal with this issue.

Are we saved by grace alone? By faith alone? Some combination of the two? Myrth?

I would like to hear some responses on the varying views on this issue. If possible, I would prefer a reference to the scripture point, simply because what the bible seems to say and what it does say are often two completely different things. Seeing what passages you draw your belief from would help me to better understand the thought process that went into it.

Depends on which denomination you belong to.

Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, and Presbyterians do not all agree. And then there are the Calvinists and Seventh-Day Adventists.

It's also not a simple thing to say, reference a single verse.

Take the church I belong to as an example.
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm

And that's the short form, with links to Scripture.

You'll need a similar collection, at a minimum, for each of the other major denominations of Christianity.

Have fun reading!

Christian salvation is kind of like being made a NS mod.

If you ask for it, you won't get it. You have to simply just pray. (To Max Barry, in both cases)

I know every one is free to believe what they like. Yet there is actually no God or Devil for that matter. God is just peoples way of explaining things that they have not figured out how it really works or why it really happens. if you look threw history less and less gets atributed to god. The bible it self is not the word of god some guy just decided hey there is too many bad things going on I think ill make a list of things that shouldnt be done and say that god told me to say them so that people will atleast make some effort to act better.

You can still believe in god and the bible if you choose, but your going to be surprized whent here is not pearly gates when you die just nothingness.

Kimchi: How do you accept Christ's offer?

I know every one is free to believe what they like. Yet there is actually no God or Devil for that matter. God is just peoples way of explaining things that they have not figured out how it really works or why it really happens. if you look threw history less and less gets atributed to god. The bible it self is not the word of god some guy just decided hey there is too many bad things going on I think ill make a list of things that shouldnt be done and say that god told me to say them so that people will atleast make some effort to act better.

You can still believe in god and the bible if you choose, but your going to be surprized whent here is not pearly gates when you die just nothingness.
That doesn't answer my question at all.

Like DK says it depends on the denomination why do you think there are so many:p

Kimchi: How do you accept Christ's offer?

5. The Salvation of Man

Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Conditions to Salvation

Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life.

* Luke 24:47 [KJV/NIV]
* John 3:3 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 10:13-15 [KJV/NIV]
* Ephesians 2:8 [KJV/NIV]
* Titus 2:11 [KJV/NIV]
* Titus 3:5-7 [KJV/NIV]

The Evidence of Salvation

The inward evidence of salvation is the direct witness of the Spirit.

* Romans 8:16 [KJV/NIV]

The outward evidence to all men is a life of righteousness and true holiness.

* Ephesians 4:24 [KJV/NIV]
* Titus 2:12 [KJV/NIV]


Baptism in Water

The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded by the Scriptures. All who repent and believe on Christ as Saviour and Lord are to be baptized. Thus they declare to the world that they have died with Christ and that they also have been raised with Him to walk in newness of life.

* Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
* Mark 16:16 [KJV/NIV]
* Acts 10:47,48 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 6:4 [KJV/NIV]

Holy Communion

The Lord's Supper, consisting of the elements --bread and the fruit of the vine-- is the symbol expressing our sharing the divine nature of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:4 [KJV/NIV]), a memorial of his suffering and death (1 Corinthians 11:26 [KJV/NIV]), and a prophecy of His second coming (1 Corinthians 11:26 [KJV/NIV]), and is enjoined on all believers "till He come!"

7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit

All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian Church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry.

* Luke 24:49 [KJV/NIV]
* Acts 1:4 [KJV/NIV]
* Acts 1:8 [KJV/NIV]
* 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 [KJV/NIV]

This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.

* Acts 8:12-17 [KJV/NIV]
* Acts 10:44-46 [KJV/NIV]
* Acts 11:14-16 [KJV/NIV]
* Acts 15:7-9 [KJV/NIV]

With the baptism in the Holy Spirit come such experiences as:

*
an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39 [KJV/NIV], Acts 4:8 [KJV/NIV]
*
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43 [KJV/NIV], Hebrews 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
*
an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42 [KJV/NIV]
*
and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20 [KJV/NIV]


9. Sanctification

Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God.

* Romans 12:1,2 [KJV/NIV]
* 1 Thessalonians 5:23 [KJV/NIV]
* Hebrews 13:12 [KJV/NIV]

The Scriptures teach a life of "holiness without which no man shall see the Lord."

* Hebrews 12:14 [KJV/NIV]

By the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to obey the command: "Be ye holy, for I am holy."

* 1 Peter 1:15,16 [KJV/NIV]

Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by the faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit.

* Romans 6:1-11 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 6:13 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 8:1,2 [KJV/NIV]
* Romans 8:13 [KJV/NIV]
* Galatians 2:20 [KJV/NIV]
* Philippians 2:12,13 [KJV/NIV]
* 1 Peter 1:5 [KJV/NIV]


That last part is what makes us different from other churches, by and large. Just because you accept Christ, and are baptized, does not mean you're going anywhere. It's seen as just a first step on your journey.

You have to spend the rest of your life trying to find a way to be closer to God. Quite unlike Baptists, for example, who usually have a policy of "once saved, always saved".

It's also not the purview of other members (including the pastor) to say whether or not you're saved, or working hard enough at your own sanctification. Only God knows your heart.

Like DK says it depends on the denomination why do you think there are som many:p

And they don't all have a one-line reference in the Bible for each position.

NO DONATION, NO SALVATION!

Give $10,000 and get salvation!

NO DONATION, NO SALVATION!

Give $10,000 and get salvation!

No, that's Scientology.

I dont have any direct scripture but i often sing a song called 'in christ alone' which goes, In christ alone my hope is found, he is my light my strength my song
and most songs are quotes from the bible
and as a chrisitaian i believe faith in jesus christ and an acceptance of him as a God and saviour and constantly trying to b perfect is hiting the mark as it were.

Welcome to the church of suicidal
We'll have a sermon and a wonderful recital
But before we go on, there's something I must mention
An important message I must bring to your attention

I was in meditation and prayer last night
I was awoken by a shining bright light
Right before me, a glorious spirit
He gave me a message and you all need to hear it

He said,
Send me your money
Do you hear what I'm sayin'?
He said,
send me your money

Kimchi: That still didn't answer my question.

I talked about "King Lear" in my original post. The reason I did is that Shakespeare's point in the play is that love and faith are not shown through words, but through one's conduct. I agree with his analysis. As a resulted, when people say that Jesus is required for salvation, do they refer to a belief in Jesus' divinity or a belief in his teachings. If you accept the latter as the principle for salvation, then the door is open to people of all faiths.

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

that would happen to be from my church's website. Have fun looking all of it up. ;)

Kimchi: That still didn't answer my question.

I talked about "King Lear" in my original post. The reason I did is that Shakespeare's point in the play is that love and faith are not shown through words, but through one's conduct. I agree with his analysis. As a resulted, when people say that Jesus is required for salvation, do they refer to a belief in Jesus' divinity or a belief in his teachings. If you accept the latter as the principle for salvation, then the door is open to people of all faiths.

I already gave you a link to the site where you can find the answer.

I know every one is free to believe what they like. Yet there is actually no God or Devil for that matter. God is just peoples way of explaining things that they have not figured out how it really works or why it really happens. if you look threw history less and less gets atributed to god. The bible it self is not the word of god some guy just decided hey there is too many bad things going on I think ill make a list of things that shouldnt be done and say that god told me to say them so that people will atleast make some effort to act better.

You can still believe in god and the bible if you choose, but your going to be surprized whent here is not pearly gates when you die just nothingness.

mate i am completly sympathetic with your viewpoint but the world is usually bigger than your opinion, so one would expect you to argue your point, not just utter stuff we've already heard too many times before.

that and it didn't have anything to do with the OP:)

i am an atheist now (verging on the point of evangelical at times:p ) but i have been brought up as a christian and know of the position of most influential european denomintions. So in theory Jesus said that only thorugh him you can get to god and all that, so basically faith is all you need. however it is quite hard to believe your faith would be true if you dont live by it (i.e. morally)... at least that's what catholics, orthodox and old (as in the german Reformation tradition) protestants would say(what they disagree on is church rituals and politics but that's irrelevent to the question)

So I've been reading through another one of those religious threads, and one thing keep popping out: nobody seems to have a clear view of what exactly is necessary in the Christian faith for salvation.

The bible is nowhere near as clear on this issue as many would like to believe. In fact, Shakespeare's famous play "King Lear" was written to deal with this issue.

Are we saved by grace alone? By faith alone? Some combination of the two? Myrth?

I would like to hear some responses on the varying views on this issue. If possible, I would prefer a reference to the scripture point, simply because what the bible seems to say and what it does say are often two completely different things. Seeing what passages you draw your belief from would help me to better understand the thought process that went into it.


We have salvation from the debt of our sins by the grace of God afforded to us by faith and evidenced in our life by regeneration leading to the fruit of the spirit i.e. love, joy, peace, patience, slow to anger, etc. seen in our works.


Sampling of passages I draw from for this.

Acts 15
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


Romans 3
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;


Ephesians 2
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God


James 2
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


Matthew 21
43"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.


John 15
8"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.


Galations 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Kimchi: That still didn't answer my question.

I talked about "King Lear" in my original post. The reason I did is that Shakespeare's point in the play is that love and faith are not shown through words, but through one's conduct. I agree with his analysis. As a resulted, when people say that Jesus is required for salvation, do they refer to a belief in Jesus' divinity or a belief in his teachings. If you accept the latter as the principle for salvation, then the door is open to people of all faiths.

Jesus's sacrifice is required for salvation to occur for anyone.
Belief in his teachings will bear the fruit required to evidence faith, in the order of magnitude (starting at a mustard seed perhaps?) that one has been made aware of them. (to whom much has been given, much will be required)

If you want to KNOW God, Jesus is the only path, no other path will accurately reflect God, although some may get portions close.

As has been said, different Christian denominations have different "procedures" mainly because the understanding on what, exactly constitutes salvation differs. For example,

-In Catholicism, salvation requires that you be baptized in order to cleanse yourself of Original Sin, and then throughout your life whenever you commit sins you have those sins absolved through the sacrament of penance. Assuming that you're in a state at the end of your life where there are no major sins on your conscience, you have made it.

This is based upon the idea that we inherit the sin committed by Adam & Eve, and must be cleansed of it. Then, by confessing our sins and receiving penance, we maintain our state of cleanliness. Obviously, it is possible to return to a non-saved state by committing mortal sin and not doing penance.

-In most evangelical/protestant thought, to be saved one has to ask for it in prayer to Jesus Christ, at which point all of your sins are redeemed both past and futrure, and you're all set.

This is based on the idea that salvation is NOT earned, that it is a free gift from Christ. Under this system, once gained, salvation cannot be lost. Should a person live an evil life even after having "been saved," it is then evidence that they weren't saved to begin with. A Calvinist variation is that only certain individuals are chosen for salvation, and you are predestined to either be saved or not.

-In LDS/Mormon thought, Baptism is required to not only cleanse any sins that may be on your conscience, but also to symbolically purify you as a follower of Jesus Christ. This is based upon the idea that in doing so, you become a follower of Jesus Christ and thus repent of your sins. Confession to another person is only needed when a serious sin is comitted in which outside help is needed to get back on the right path. It is possible to lose a saved status by turning away from following Christ, although it is also possible to come back.

This is based on the idea that salvation is not earned, but must be chosen freely by the recipient.

There are no doubt subtler details than what I've said here, and there may be other Christian denominations with very different points of view, but hopefully this is useful as an overall bird's eye. Others have supplied copious bible verses so not much point in repeating that here.

The Bible is very clear about it.

Ephesians 2:8-10

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

English Standard Version

Depends on which denomination you belong to.

Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, and Presbyterians do not all agree. And then there are the Calvinists and Seventh-Day Adventists.

Actually, Presbyterians (not presbyterians: the miniscule p indicates a system of government, the majascule indicates a denomination) are by definition Calvinist.

Actually, Presbyterians (not presbyterians: the miniscule p indicates a system of government, the majascule indicates a denomination) are by definition Calvinist.

They've spent a considerable amount of time distancing themselves from the Elect part.

They've spent a considerable amount of time distancing themselves from the Elect part.

Then, by definition, they are not Presbyterian. Read their Book of Confessions: there's no way around the Calvinism in there. Just because you are a member of the church organization doesn't mean that you are necessarily a believer in the essential doctrines of that denomination.

The Bible is very clear about it.

Ephesians 2:8-10

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

English Standard Version

You do not need faith to experience grace. Grace is god's gift to us all, regardless of what we believe or think or feel. You have no choice in the matter.

That is not entirely correct. Through good works and a constant generosity of soul, you can train your awareness to commune more easily with god, essentially inducing a state of grace. Still, faith is not required. Of course, I speak as a mystic, and not an orthodox christian, so it may not be topical.

Kimchi: That still didn't answer my question.

I talked about "King Lear" in my original post. The reason I did is that Shakespeare's point in the play is that love and faith are not shown through words, but through one's conduct. I agree with his analysis. As a resulted, when people say that Jesus is required for salvation, do they refer to a belief in Jesus' divinity or a belief in his teachings. If you accept the latter as the principle for salvation, then the door is open to people of all faiths.

didnt everyone end up dead at the end of king lear?

You do not need faith to experience grace. Grace is god's gift to us all, regardless of what we believe or think or feel. You have no choice in the matter.

That is not entirely correct. Through good works and a constant generosity of soul, you can train your awareness to commune more easily with god, essentially inducing a state of grace. Still, faith is not required. Of course, I speak as a mystic, and not an orthodox christian, so it may not be topical.

Umm, yeah. I'm going to go with God's word on this one.

Though there are different levels of grace. There is common grace: the reason you should have died in that crash but didn't.Everyone experiences that to some degree. And there is the grace of salvation, which is given to those whom God calls.

Umm, yeah. I'm going to go with God's word on this one.

As long as you do not choose God's word over God Himself, feel free...

Remember, the Bible is not God. It is the finger pointing to God.

As long as you do not choose God's word over God Himself, feel free...

Remember, the Bible is not God. It is the finger pointing to God.

No, the Bible is the Word of God, given to us to tell us how to come to God and how to live once we have come. It's not a finger pointing in the general direction for you to travel on your own.

No, the Bible is the Word of God, given to us to tell us how to come to God and how to live once we have come. It's not a finger pointing in the general direction for you to travel on your own.

If you say so. I'm actually more interested in these varying states of grace you mentioned. Would you care to elaborate?

If you say so. I'm actually more interested in these varying states of grace you mentioned. Would you care to elaborate?

I wouldn't really call them states of grace.

What is grace? Unmerited favor, a gift. You are given something you don't deserve. It's not the same as mercy, which is failing to give someone what they deserve: not spanking the child after he hit his younger sister.

It's the same grace, just given in different amounts for different reasons. The reasons are divided into two categories: common grace and the grace of salvation (those aren't actually what theologians call them, but I can't remember the names).

Common grace is prompting the memory on a test. You in no way deserved that prompt, but God did anyway. It could be as "small" as that or as "big" as healing the patient on the death bed. The pateint in no way deserved to be healed, but God did it anyway. Everyone experiences common grace to some degree, even the child that dies in the womb, because it was not sent to hell the moment it was conceived as it deserves for its sinful nature.

The grace of salvation is given only to those who God chooses. These are those whose natures God chooses to change so that they will be able to respond positively to the Gospel. Natural man will reject the Gospel, because he is totally averse to God and wants in all things to spite Him.

I wouldn't really call them states of grace.

What is grace? Unmerited favor, a gift. You are given something you don't deserve. It's not the same as mercy, which is failing to give someone what they deserve: not spanking the child after he hit his younger sister.

It's the same grace, just given in different amounts for different reasons. The reasons are divided into two categories: common grace and the grace of salvation (those aren't actually what theologians call them, but I can't remember the names).

Common grace is prompting the memory on a test. You in no way deserved that prompt, but God did anyway. It could be as "small" as that or as "big" as healing the patient on the death bed. The pateint in no way deserved to be healed, but God did it anyway. Everyone experiences common grace to some degree, even the child that dies in the womb, because it was not sent to hell the moment it was conceived as it deserves for its sinful nature.

The grace of salvation is given only to those who God chooses. These are those whose natures God chooses to change so that they will be able to respond positively to the Gospel. Natural man will reject the Gospel, because he is totally averse to God and wants in all things to spite Him.

I see. So common grace is the unmerited gift of god in your life. Is this an overwhelming thing? Does the person who receives this grace feel euphoria or ecstasy?

And the grace of salvation. Does this mean entrance to Heaven, or is it a permanent change in the soul of the person preparatory to entering Heaven?

If you could clear this up, I'd be grateful.

I see. So common grace is the unmerited gift of god in your life. Is this an overwhelming thing? Does the person who receives this grace feel euphoria or ecstasy?

It depends on how God wants to work. He could give feelings of ecstasy, but most often He doesn't. It is by grace that I am alive right now, because it is God who keeps even the subatomic particles in order. Do I deserve that? No, so it is a gift of grace. Most people do not acknowledge this grace. They prefer to believe in chance (as though chance were a forece with a will of its own) or to not even consider it.

And the grace of salvation. Does this mean entrance to Heaven, or is it a permanent change in the soul of the person preparatory to entering Heaven?

It is a grace that changes the nature so that the person wants to be with God. That means heaven and preparation for heaven.

If you could clear this up, I'd be grateful.

Glad to help.

It depends on how God wants to work. He could give feelings of ecstasy, but most often He doesn't. It is by grace that I am alive right now, because it is God who keeps even the subatomic particles in order. Do I deserve that? No, so it is a gift of grace. Most people do not acknowledge this grace. They prefer to believe in chance (as though chance were a forece with a will of its own) or to not even consider it.



It is a grace that changes the nature so that the person wants to be with God. That means heaven and preparation for heaven.



Glad to help.

Thank you for the information. I will stand by my assertion that faith is not required for either of these forms of grace, though I can understand why Christians see a need for faith in these situations.

Read you later!:)

Thank you for the information. I will stand by my assertion that faith is not required for either of these forms of grace, though I can understand why Christians see a need for faith in these situations.

Read you later!:)

Okay! Glad to help! Talk/"Read" you later! :)

Vote Republican and thou shalt be saved.