NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread is a debate about kurds and everything pertaining to them.

Should they be given self-determination?

Sumerian answer: No, bitches, herd my goats.

Assyrian answer: No, bitches, herd my goats. I expect my cheese by sunset

Persian answer: No, bitches, herd my goats. Read this book, it's called the qu'ran. I expect recitations by sunset

Mongol answer: WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING?! STRING MY BLOODY BOW ALREADY!!@!12@! AND GET MY YAKS SOME BARLEY!

European answer: Good grief, you'd never believe it, but there are some brownies who actually think they are a race apart! Polo?

Ottoman turks: No, bitches, we own you, and you herd our goats, if you separate, we won't have any goats. 30 floggings for rebellion, stat.

Atatürk's answer: Who the hell are the kurds anyway? No ethnic groups in my land! Outlaw their language!

My answer: No, they do not have the sufficient economic conditions in those regions to support a state, and do not have an educated population to lean on either. If they continue to be assholes about it, yes, and let them starve from their goat herding economy. Turkey would probably embargo them outright the minute they proclaim a separate state and let them starve to death. They've been trying to gain independence since, well, forever, and I don't see why it should be the current turkey/syria/iran/iraq/etc who should give it over. Not that they'd lose much, but...

Also, whoever says Turkey should let them have independence will be in the hypocritical stance that, because a certain group wants it, Turkey has to give up 1/6th of it's national territory. If in 2030 there are more hispanics in the southwest sixth of the US than anything else, and they demanded independence, establishing terrorist groups and generally being assholes about it, I'm quite certain the most they'd get is a ticket back to mexico and a swift kick in the nads.

Zilam says: Any people that wish to have self determination, should be allowed self determination.

What about this - Kurdistan is formed, but only out of the northern part of Iraq, and no land from Turkey is used? The Turks will probably bitch and moan about it, but we can rightfully tell them to shut the fuck up if they're not losing any land. Now granted, an independent Kurdish state may need some economic assistance, but it's a hell of a lot better than the Kurds being stuck in the ever-worsening quagmire that is Iraq.

Given the choice between being a noticeably poor independent state that has the Turks pissed off at them and being a segment of a batshit-insane Shi'ite theocracy, the average Kurd would look at a person asking this question as if they had three heads and ask, "I'm sorry, is that a question?"

Undelia says: The last thing we need is more independent nations.

Borat says: Come to Kazakstan

Undelia says: The last thing we need is more independent nations.



And why is that?

If a majority genuinely wants to be independent, then they should be independent. All people have the right to self determination. If that means the Kurds should rule their own state, so be it; if that means that Hispanics wish to leave the USA, then they should be allowed to do so.

If a majority genuinely wants to be independent, then they should be independent. All people have the right to self determination. If that means the Kurds should rule their own state, so be it; if that means that Hispanics wish to leave the USA, then they should be allowed to do so.

Right, so that means in the near future, when the hispanics want texas, new mexico, and such back, then they can have it. Only as long as we can have joint control of California though. They can have all of texas though. No one would really miss it.

Zilam says: Any people that wish to have self determination, should be allowed self determination.

Right, so that means in the near future, when the hispanics want texas, new mexico, and such back, then they can have it. Only as long as we can have joint control of California though. They can have all of texas though. No one would really miss it.

Interesting how quickly you changed your tune there when it was about your own country.

Turkish system
You have two goats.
A Kurdish guy herds them.
The PKK bombs a restaurant in Istanbul.

Interesting how quickly you changed your tune there when it was about your own country.



No i was in favour of it both times, silly :P I was being silly myself, maybe next time i will add the smiley :p or ;) or something to show i wasn't serious. I honestly think that if anyone wants self determination they should have it, no matter what. So if the hispanic americans citizens want their own seperat nation in the south, then so be. Notice i said citizens. meaning they can't just illegally immigrate here and take over that land. that just an invasion force right there. I want to start my own nation, the southern part of illinois is rich in resources, so that would be our economy, plus the rivers around it would help out. then i'd invade kentucky! mwahahahahah...-cough- where's the meds when ya need them

No i was in favour of it both times, silly :P I was being silly myself, maybe next time i will add the smiley :p or ;) or something to show i wasn't serious.

Sorry, thought you were being sarcastic. :p

It's just amazing how often people's grand ideals and morals evaporate when you start talking about something they will have to give up.

Philosopy: even if it means certain starvation and more drain on the general philantropic society of the world?

Zilam says: Any people that wish to have self determination, should be allowed self determination.

I second this motion.

If they want independence, then let them have it. We'll just wait and see how long they'll survive... :)

What about this - Kurdistan is formed, but only out of the northern part of Iraq, and no land from Turkey is used? The Turks will probably bitch and moan about it, but we can rightfully tell them to shut the fuck up if they're not losing any land. Now granted, an independent Kurdish state may need some economic assistance, but it's a hell of a lot better than the Kurds being stuck in the ever-worsening quagmire that is Iraq.

Given the choice between being a noticeably poor independent state that has the Turks pissed off at them and being a segment of a batshit-insane Shi'ite theocracy, the average Kurd would look at a person asking this question as if they had three heads and ask, "I'm sorry, is that a question?"

Already unoffically done. Guess what flag flys over Northern Iraq? The flag of "Kurdistan". I'm sure that if the Shitty Shi'tite government tries to order them around, they will tell them to shove it.

Of course that's one of the reasons why Iran and Turkey have troops so close to Iraq right now. They aren't happy with the Kurds being happy.

All people which group themselves as a nation/ethnicity have a right to self determination. I dont care whether they are Kurds or Flemish or Scots. If they want to be independent, they should be.

Nordland: I would agree, but there is a large difference between these three groups: The scots have a lot to lean back on; a highly developed schooling system, an educated populace, the patent on golf, half of the worlds whiskey...

The flemish are a similar case, educated, capacity to educate, industry(they have fricken arms manufacturers), basically, an economy.

the kurds on the other hand, are an uneducated rabble who have no other economic element than their goats. In two months, the 15~ million turkish kurds would be starving.

Does the ideal of "independence" justify starving to death until you become yet another african/middle eastern poor country with no way out?

Nordland: I would agree, but there is a large difference between these three groups: The scots have a lot to lean back on; a highly developed schooling system, an educated populace, the patent on golf, half of the worlds whiskey...

The flemish are a similar case, educated, capacity to educate, industry(they have fricken arms manufacturers), basically, an economy.

the kurds on the other hand, are an uneducated rabble who have no other economic element than their goats. In two months, the 15~ million turkish kurds would be starving.

Does the ideal of "independence" justify starving to death until you become yet another african/middle eastern poor country with no way out?

The Kurds in northern Iraq seem pretty able to take care of themselves. They've got the region under control, and they're able to maintain some pretty good infrastructure. I doubt that they'd starve to death, and they might even do better than most current middle eastern countries.

Bunnyducks says, every bunch ready to bomb tourists needs to get a state! GO PKK!
Why are the Kurds exempt, I wonder.
People in NSG are Hysterical about 'terrists', but these cute little folks go under the radar...

Part of Kurdistan has been independent for roughly 14 years. There was an article in National Geographic about a girl born after the Gulf War when the No Fly Zones made Iraqi Kurdistan de facto independent. They are a fairly modern and secular country and have access to much oil if all their land is reunited, which is probably one of the main reasons why no one will let them go if they can. Only Iraq and Iran recognize Kurdistan at least partially. In Iraq, it's sort of an autonomous region, especially the northern sliver. In Iran, it's a province. I am a strong supporter of Kurdish independence. All that crap about goats is absolute bull. Kurdistan is one of the most advanced and secular parts of the Middle East.

If you wish to check my summary, please wiki Kurdistan and read the various articles and even go to their websites.

Part of Kurdistan has been independent for roughly 14 years. There was an article in National Geographic about a girl born after the Gulf War when the No Fly Zones made Iraqi Kurdistan de facto independent. They are a fairly modern and secular country and have access to much oil if all their land is reunited, which is probably one of the main reasons why no one will let them go if they can. Only Iraq and Iran recognize Kurdistan at least partially. In Iraq, it's sort of an autonomous region, especially the northern sliver. In Iran, it's a province. I am a strong supporter of Kurdish independence. All that crap about goats is absolute bull. Kurdistan is one of the most advanced and secular parts of the Middle East.

If you wish to check my summary, please wiki Kurdistan and read the various articles and even go to their websites.

Your completly right the Kurds have more than enough infastructure and economic know how to create a strong prosperous Kurdish state, I favor that being made up of parts of turkey and Iran and much of northern Iraq, not that the Turks or Iranians would have anything to do with this. Also I'm not sure who charecterized them as uneducated that's a crock if you look at Iraq right now you'd see that the Kurdish North is far more prosperous even though it doesn't have the economic advantage of allot of oil. 5 new international airport terminals have been built in the Kurdish north since saddam was overthrown, this in it's self shows that there is allot of investmant going on there, you don't get international airports in places with no infastucture there is quite abit outside investment in Kurdistan that people don't seem to know about.

thats in northern iraq, where the uneducated kurds were gassed not too long ago. It's not hard to be prosperous when there is only a small, educated population to maintain. the hard part is maintaining the 15 million uneducated kurds in turkey. How would they pull that off? Considering how happy turkey would be about the creation of a separate state, you can count off help from there, and the US would either not allow help from the islamic neighbors, or allow it and shun kurdistan, making a peice of the civilized middle east into more wahabism.

Well if the Turks would let them go, they might get educated, but under Turkish rule, they are disadvantaged and will remain so for awhile unless something is done. After this Iraq mess is sorted out, Kurdistan may demand full freedom, although one of those Balkans amy come first...Bosnia and Herzegovina I think are looking to split and Kosovo still wants out, but that's another thread.

Well if the Turks would let them go, they might get educated, but under Turkish rule, they are disadvantaged and will remain so for awhile unless something is done.

Once again I agree completly with this assertion, one only needs to look at the nature of the Turkish regime since Ataturk to see that is a racist regime that has constantly repressed there national minorities, for instance how educated could you be when the Kurdish language was illegal until 1991, teaching Kurdish in public schools is still banned. Let's face it the Turkish government is basically the same genocidal one that killed over a million Armenians in the early 1900's.

thats in northern iraq, where the uneducated kurds were gassed not too long ago. It's not hard to be prosperous when there is only a small, educated population to maintain. the hard part is maintaining the 15 million uneducated kurds in turkey. How would they pull that off? Considering how happy turkey would be about the creation of a separate state, you can count off help from there, and the US would either not allow help from the islamic neighbors, or allow it and shun kurdistan, making a peice of the civilized middle east into more wahabism.

Where are you getting that "Almost all of the Kurds in Iraq are dead" Of course you seem very Biased about the Kurds to begin with so what am I suprised. The title of this thread is enough proof, where is your evidence that ALL the Kurds do is herd goats?

The Kurds are no less "Civlized" as the rest of the groups in the Middle East. At least they are the ones who don't spend their time trading murders back and forth in the name of their religion. (Like the Sunnis and Shittes.)

Nordland: I would agree, but there is a large difference between these three groups: The scots have a lot to lean back on; a highly developed schooling system, an educated populace, the patent on golf, half of the worlds whiskey...

Scottish Whisky doesn't have an E, dammit - it's not bleeding Jack Daniels...and here's nothing wrong with being a Whisky Nazi.

In any case, Kurdistan also has a lot to lean back on - a distinct lack of car bombings, suicide attacks and religious nutters. At least, compared to the rest of Iraq/Iran.

Nordland: I would agree, but there is a large difference between these three groups: The scots have a lot to lean back on; a highly developed schooling system, an educated populace, the patent on golf, half of the worlds whiskey...

The flemish are a similar case, educated, capacity to educate, industry(they have fricken arms manufacturers), basically, an economy.

the kurds on the other hand, are an uneducated rabble who have no other economic element than their goats. In two months, the 15~ million turkish kurds would be starving.

Does the ideal of "independence" justify starving to death until you become yet another african/middle eastern poor country with no way out?

HAHA. So are Turks educated? Are Iraqis or Iranians? They are all same to me. I guess Kurds would do at least as well as them. Besides, Northern Iraq has oil which Kurds would use, so they wont be starving.

Once again I agree completly with this assertion, one only needs to look at the nature of the Turkish regime since Ataturk to see that is a racist regime that has constantly repressed there national minorities, for instance how educated could you be when the Kurdish language was illegal until 1991, teaching Kurdish in public schools is still banned. Let's face it the Turkish government is basically the same genocidal one that killed over a million Armenians in the early 1900's.

If it was a racist regime, they'd give independence to Kurds instead of trying to assimilate them. Mid Eastern regimes are repressive, not racist.

A) teaching kurdish in public schools is no longer banned.

B) They might not do it in the name of religion, but they still blow themselves up and kill a bunch of people who have nothing to do with the conflict all the time.

C) The kurds were first absorbed by the assyrians who expanded into that land. The kurds were, like the mongols in the steppes a thousand miles away, migrating from pasture to pasture with their goats. I'm sure not all of them herd goats today, but that other group of goat herders eventually got far enough to conquered the kurds. What have the kurds done? "fight for indepenence". Let's make a new rule, if you fight for independence for 3000 years and fail, you don't get independence. Even in the times of the ottoman empire, when it was getting it's ass kicked by the triple entente, they tried to secede -again- and were defeated by none other than the turkish rebel group, ataturk's. Ataturks policies about racial secularism (I dont know any other way to say it) were very wise indeed. In a country like turkey, where there are a tons of different ethnic groups (greek, turkish kurds, arabs, persians, europeans...) It could have quickly become "just another" ethnic dictatorship.

D) Are the turks educated? hmm. Well, considering they're in fricken NATO, they manufacture weapons, etc etc... Yes. Are the iranians educated? Enough to make nuclear weapons and scare the shit out of most of the west -including the USA-.

A) teaching kurdish in public schools is no longer banned.

B) They might not do it in the name of religion, but they still blow themselves up and kill a bunch of people who have nothing to do with the conflict all the time.

C) The kurds were first absorbed by the assyrians who expanded into that land. The kurds were, like the mongols in the steppes a thousand miles away, migrating from pasture to pasture with their goats. I'm sure not all of them herd goats today, but that other group of goat herders eventually got far enough to conquered the kurds. What have the kurds done? "fight for indepenence". Let's make a new rule, if you fight for independence for 3000 years and fail, you don't get independence. Even in the times of the ottoman empire, when it was getting it's ass kicked by the triple entente, they tried to secede -again- and were defeated by none other than the turkish rebel group, ataturk's. Ataturks policies about racial secularism (I dont know any other way to say it) were very wise indeed. In a country like turkey, where there are a tons of different ethnic groups (greek, turkish kurds, arabs, persians, europeans...) It could have quickly become "just another" ethnic dictatorship.

D) Are the turks educated? hmm. Well, considering they're in fricken NATO, they manufacture weapons, etc etc... Yes. Are the iranians educated? Enough to make nuclear weapons and scare the shit out of most of the west -including the USA-.


So, by your standarts, North Korea and Pakistan is also very educated. HAHA :rolleyes:

Let's make a new rule, if you fight for independence for 3000 years and fail, you don't get independence. Even in the times of the ottoman empire, when it was getting it's ass kicked by the triple entente, they tried to secede -again- and were defeated by none other than the turkish rebel group, ataturk's.

Read up Suleimann the Magnificent and we'll see who was kicking ass.

Aah ah where to begin?
I am a Turk, I'm a secular turkish republican(it's completely irrevelant with the way republican used in america). I have all kinds of people from ethnicities, religions and political views. One of my kurdish friends is for example an engineer married to one of my relatives. He gains good money, we play civilization together can have a nice intellectual talk or drink a few beers. Another one is a commando that spilled his blood against PKK terror and a true Turkish nationalist, of course there are many others.
The problem of south east Türkiye is, even before the Republic there were landlords ruling the area and keeping it medieval. After the republic was found the country hugely leaped forward from 0 funds and paid millions of gold for Ottoman debts. Idealistic teachers were sent all around the country and in short time reader writer amounts have jumped.
But it was not easy to change old ways, hundreds of years old ways and every cm of change came at a cost. There were many rebellions that were oppressed and behind most of those were enemies of Turkiye feeding guns and money. This of course was aided by the fact that population of Turkiye was pre industrial and not concentrated at cities. The population was divided into thousands of small villages, a few house there a few house here making it nearly impossible to reach them all at the same time or speed. They lived away from the worlds change.
Ataturk's multi party trials continued but mostly resulted in being pawns for landlords that didnt wanted reforms so they were closed down and trials to truly make multi party system continued, most people would rather claim Atatürk as the Emperor(he was back in Ottoman time was about to become married to Sultan's daughter) than work hard to make democracy work. Thankfully there were those who believed in constition and Turkish civilization willing to make their country one of the worlds best.
After Atatürk's death and the hard times of WW2 the secular republican CHP(Republican peoples party) lost much power.
Unfortunately around 1950's one of these new parties(Democrat party) powered by landlords of Turkiye's east, came to power and started to destroy reforms from within the goverment. The events after that and between 1990 are full of tragedy as Turkiye became a part of Cold war as Nato's ally against the Soviet threat. At 1980 nearly had a civil war between left and right wing.
The country was full with american and russian agents and dont even mention the english working at south. To weaken the Turkiye Soviets sent many communist imams to east of Turkiye. They started preaching to the public that they are kürds and enemy of türks. Recruiting teens from villages by tehir parents permission, who were not happy with the goverment. Living in harsh conditions and not recieving much aid from central goverment they were willing to submit to soviet propaganda. But after a few times of recruitment they realised that it didnt aided them the slightest and they needed the manpower to herd and farm where possible. They didnt wanted to give more young people but this time it wasnt voluntary, the terrorists forced people to give them their young for doctrination or else... there were examples made.
Ah yes lets gather all together, at the beginning the resources were low and goverment relied on people working the economy (liberal approach) but after a while they saw that with mostly poor people its impossible to start industry and started to planned economy. Build the economies where the population were gathered, at west and center areas of country.
Then the Democrat party gave into the will of landlords, closing down idealist village institutes teaching people to work their land more efficiently, teaching ideals, having libraries at even most distant places for people to love to read something more than Kuran. Gathering vilalgers and supporting these local institutes by working together, building the building raising the crops, making pictures together etc. They were found too communist by the goverment which was at the side of west at the cold war.
And all this time there were islamic riots backed by english against the secular goverment of course.
And then came the communist backed Pkk, killing teachers, judges, policeman. So it was guaranteed to keep east ignorant of the world, uneducated. All people in Turkiye knows its hugely goverments fault for not giving more education and economic help to east of country, but even at worst times there were people at the goverment sending whatever they can, only to be destroyed by guerilla tactic using terrorists.
This is not the drama of Kürds, its shown to world like its only a poor bunch of ethnically different people that lived those hardships. The area is very much populated by türks and türk- arabs. Even at the west parts of country usually came an economic crisses and people lost what they had. Those were hard times for country. We are not a rich western country that through oil companies sucked world dry of its riches, what we gained we gained by hard work and our needs were always great and resources limited.
Every citizen of Türkiye is accepted as Türk and have same rights. Everyone is quite able to move inside of country and go out live, earn money etc. We all suffer what happens to our country and endure it together. We always blame our goverment for not doing things but our main sickness is our inaction. We do nothing for the country yet find the right to blame each other and sit still in our little comforts. Being angry at an citizen of ones country is not reason enough to hate the country itself.

Anyone that doesnt like the country has to work to better it. The cultural alienation is only a long used tool by other countries to divide us and further worsen the situation. They want civil war and even though I knwo that It will probably destroy the threat at its root by genetic elimination Im against it. I dont want to become a western barbarian, even when Armanians massacred the Türks at east of country (which even repulsed Russians when they realised what has been done) we didnt just cut them down, they were used and we moved them away from battle line. Alas, the ethnic hate of türks thats being placed in kürds under names of cultural rights were completely placed at foreign Armanians and they twist history to their own ends.
I don't fear anyone on this earth, when I die I shall die protecting my honor and my country. The only reason of terror at east of Turkiye is to create fear and seperation and civil war. Kürds have nothing to gain by aiding those foreign agents and unlike what world thinks most kürds have realised that and increasingly becoming more and more Turkish nationalist, fighting for the country against all threats. Unfortunately there are those who have not yet realised that they have nothing to gain in any means possible by being against Turkiye's good. Look at what happened at Armanians at their independent country, they are speaking all the Armanian language they want secluded from world and poor, as Armanians in Turkiye have jobs and in the center of world and oppurtunities, treated as equal citizens.

So, by your standarts, North Korea and Pakistan is also very educated. HAHA :rolleyes:

a turkish scientist was given the award for his mathematic discovery, most unnecessary discovery reward in America if I remember correctly. Later his discovery was realised as the way to create artificial intelligance able to think like humans. So laugh well my friend as we Türks will surprise the ignorant world with our technological provess. I would further tell you about our worldwide accepted cures for variable cancers but forget it. We have not yet balanced our population-economy to brag that much :D

a highly developed schooling system, an educated populace

ha ha.

a turkish scientist was given the award for his mathematic discovery, most unnecessary discovery reward in America if I remember correctly. Later his discovery was realised as the way to create artificial intelligance able to think like humans. So laugh well my friend as we Türks will surprise the ignorant world with our technological provess. I would further tell you about our worldwide accepted cures for variable cancers but forget it. We have not yet balanced our population-economy to brag that much :D

every turk i have ever met, had a collage degree.