NationStates Jolt Archive

Christian fundamentalists, or Islamic fundamentalists? (I know more religions have fundies, but these two are the most prominent). Which ones pose a greater threat to our Western way of life? Which ones pose a greater threat, to the freedom of NSG?

I post this thread after seeing the Phelps vs. Colbert/Steward thread. For fear that NSG has been infiltrated by Phelps' Satanic cult. And just to find out your opinions of course, I love finding out your opinions.

Christian fundamentalists, or Islamic fundamentalists? (I know more religions have fundies, but these two are the most prominent). Which ones pose a greater threat to our Western way of life? Which ones pose a greater threat, to the freedom of NSG?

I post this thread after seeing the Phelps vs. Colbert/Steward thread. For fear that NSG has been infiltrated by Pehlps' Satanic cult. And just to find out your opinions of course, I love finding out your opinions.

In the end both ... Islamic fundamentalism is probably more of an absolute threat while christian fundamentalism is more of an immediate threat

Hmmm... Islamic have more people, but Christian have better funding... difficult to say.

I still find it fascinating that people even see a comparison.

My prediction for this thread:
Sooner or later someone will say "Islamic Terror has killed x people since x year"
Someone else will bring up Tim McVeigh (As if he were a valid example of Christian terrorism)
Someone else will probably mention the KKK, as if it too were a valid Christian group
people will get sick of the thread.

I wish I had that not this shit again pic. Gotta make a point to copy it next time...

I think that in terms of killing other people, and thus, actual lethality, Islamic Fundamentalism is worse. They both suck though.

I would have to say islamic fundementalist, just based on the sheer amount of fundie terrorist attacks and loss of life. Christian fundamentalists are a huge threat too though....

Islamic fundies are more straightforward in their quest to destroy the world; as they use bombs and guns to achieve their goals...

However, there are way too many Christian fundies in the USA, which controls a considerable amount of...mostly everything needed to destroy the world.

I think most of us view Islamic fundamentalism as more harmful is because of their direct action, rather than the more subtle, sublime actions of the Christ-Terrorists.

I would be interested in hearing th edetails on exactly what makes Christian Fundamentalists such a massive threat that they're on par in some people's minds with Islamic Fundamentalists.

speaking as a person enrolled in an opressive baptist school, both suck.

depends which group of fundamentalists...for example, our wonderful friend Smunkee is a self-described fundamentalist. She is quite sane and not a threat (unless you piss her off, in which case, you have earned it). The Amish are also fundamentalist. *insert Robin Williams sketch*

I'm not very well versed in Islamic fundamentalism...but I assume there are similar groups to the Amish and Smunkee.

Christian fundamentalism is more political and poses a threat to America only because it causes people like Bush to be in power.

Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to the whole of the western world, a threat of terrorism and war.

Islamic fundamentalism wins the vote.

I would be interested in hearing th edetails on exactly what makes Christian Fundamentalists such a massive threat that they're on par in some people's minds with Islamic Fundamentalists.

because Christian fundamentalists (okay, huge generalisation here) strive to promote censorship and their personal form of morals as our laws. They have shown themselves more than willing to scrap several amendments if those using them don't fit their narrow world view. Where Islamic fundamentalists attack us in very dramatic attacks externally, Christian fundamentalists work very quietly and from the inside. Neither is particularly good for the population at large.

Psht. Same thing: People abusing words to get away with what they want. It just so happens that the people in one group are somewhat less well off and more radicalised by circumstance than the people in the other.

Christian fundamentalists have grasped the concept of freedom and democracy and use words to achieve their goals. Islamic fundamentalists use violence against innocent civilians, in many cases, to achieve their ends. There is no question that Islamic fundamentalists are worse.

depends which group of fundamentalists...for example, our wonderful friend Smunkee is a self-described fundamentalist. She is quite sane and not a threat (unless you piss her off, in which case, you have earned it). The Amish are also fundamentalist. *insert Robin Williams sketch*

I'm not very well versed in Islamic fundamentalism...but I assume there are similar groups to the Amish and Smunkee.

it's because people confuse fundamentalists with extremists, I am a fundamentalist because I accept a list of fundamental truths about my faith. I am sure that there are islamic fundamentalists who are harmless, but they aren't the extreme ones.

Islamic Fundamentalism can be fought. It's a clear force, and while it will sometimes hide, it's still comparatively easy to fight. We still can fight it. Christian Fundamentalism, on the other hand, is just as radical, but it's more rooted in our own society. You can't simply stamp it out. I think that makes it more dangerous.

Begoner21;11656165']Christian fundamentalists have grasped the concept of freedom and democracy and use words to achieve their goals.

If you mean in the same way the Nazis did, yeah.

If you mean in the same way the Nazis did, yeah.

Umm...by slaughtering Jews? No, you must be thinking of Islamic fundamentalists.

If you mean in the same way the Nazis did, yeah.

Nice Godwin.

As I live in a country that is extensively Christian and which has no conflict with the Islamic world, for me Christian fundamentalism is a far greater threat to my freedoms.
I am sure though, that in other countries, Islamic fundamentalism is a greater threat.

It comes down to fundamentalism, of any type, being a threat to decent honest and independant people.

I think Christian fundamentalism is definitely the biggest danger to the world.
http://www.dorkinglabs.com/fim/104.jpg

They both suck. America has more than its fair share of fundies, who are trying to force their christian values on everyone. I suppose they could potentialy be worse, meaning they could affect more lives than the islamic terrorist have in the west, if they actually get more power. It would be horrible if that ever happened: making crazy laws against abortion, turning all schools into brainwashing camps, banning porn. :(

Although living in the UK, I should remain safe from all that. :)

it's because people confuse fundamentalists with extremists, I am a fundamentalist because I accept a list of fundamental truths about my faith. I am sure that there are islamic fundamentalists who are harmless, but they aren't the extreme ones.

ya know...I've always meant to ask you what that list of fundamental truths are.

sadly, I think that to hit the "extreme" point, you have to first be fundamentalist...otherwise, I don't think you really have the dedication to the faith that is needed to use it in an extreme form (did that make any sense?)

turning all schools into brainwashing camps

Um... hasn't that already happened?

Although living in the UK, I should remain safe from all that. :)

Curse you. You don't have to deal with Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps being on the tele all the time. I must move to Ireland!

ya know...I've always meant to ask you what that list of fundamental truths are.

sadly, I think that to hit the "extreme" point, you have to first be fundamentalist...otherwise, I don't think you really have the dedication to the faith that is needed to use it in an extreme form (did that make any sense?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity


The original formulation of American fundamentalist beliefs can be traced to the Niagara Bible Conference (1878–1897) and, in 1910, to the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church which distilled these into what became known as the "five fundamentals"

Inerrancy of the Scriptures
The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The authenticity of Christ's miracles

Um... hasn't that already happened?

Yeah, I do remember you telling me about your school. Surely not all of them are like that though, right? They already have laws against same sex marriage, which I blame the fundies for. Just think how much worse it would get if the fundies got hold of even more power.
:gundge:

Yeah, I do remember you telling me about your school. Surely not all of them are like that though, right? They already have laws against same sex marriage, which I blame the fundies for. Just think how much worse it would get if the fundies got hold of even more power.
:gundge:

The Holy American Empire?

Just a thought. -_-
I think we're safe from inside Christian uber-fundie (extremist) so long as Canada remains secular.

it's because people confuse fundamentalists with extremists,

This isn't *exactly* true. Sociologists have used the term "fundamentalist" in reference to religion for years. It describes groups who are extreme in their viewpoints, generally are not well-studied in the history or even most of the doctrine of their religion, and who view some aspect of their religious views as being "under attack" and thus focusing almost exclusively upon them.

Of course, with terror attacks and the like, the word has entered the general vocabulary in that sense.

It wasn't until very recently that I began to hear of self-proclaimed fundamentalists, and they generally do not use the word in the same way as sociologists. Instead, it is usually used to mean, essentially, some sort of return to fundamentals - a more basic form of the religion.

Neither is really "incorrect" or a matter of the user confusing one thing for another. It is more a matter of the word having two different meanings - and the need to be explicit in which definition is meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

well, those aren't all THAT crazy;)

well, those aren't all THAT crazy;)

they certainly aren't violent or sinister

This isn't *exactly* true. Sociologists have used the term "fundamentalist" in reference to religion for years. It describes groups who are extreme in their viewpoints, generally are not well-studied in the history or even most of the doctrine of their religion, and who view some aspect of their religious views as being "under attack" and thus focusing almost exclusively upon them.

Of course, with terror attacks and the like, the word has entered the general vocabulary in that sense.

It wasn't until very recently that I began to hear of self-proclaimed fundamentalists, and they generally do not use the word in the same way as sociologists. Instead, it is usually used to mean, essentially, some sort of return to fundamentals - a more basic form of the religion.

Neither is really "incorrect" or a matter of the user confusing one thing for another. It is more a matter of the word having two different meanings - and the need to be explicit in which definition is meant.

the movement has been around for a over a hundred years, I have been hearing about the self proclaimed my entire life, I only heard of the "bad fundamentalist Christians" in 97.......when I got kicked out of class for debating religion when the teacher had brought it up, got in over his head, and got pissed because he was losing the debate.

they certainly aren't violent or sinister

definatly not. I mean, from my POV, it's nothing I could ever subscribe to, but I also don't see how they could be used to justify well...insanity.

The way I see it being perverted is that those are great leaps of faith...if you are willing to take those leaps of faith, then you obviously believe that you are right, without question. That could feasibly lead to extremism

definatly not. I mean, from my POV, it's nothing I could ever subscribe to, but I also don't see how they could be used to justify well...insanity.

The way I see it being perverted is that those are great leaps of faith...if you are willing to take those leaps of faith, then you obviously believe that you are right, without question. That could feasibly lead to extremism

oh, just about anything can justify insanity, take a leader who is charismatic, and a few people who are just a little bit dumb and have low self esteem and you have a recipe for all sorts of trouble.

oh, just about anything can justify insanity, take a leader who is charismatic, and a few people who are just a little bit dumb and have low self esteem and you have a recipe for all sorts of trouble.

Huh, sounds like Fanaticism 101.

oh, just about anything can justify insanity, take a leader who is charismatic, and a few people who are just a little bit dumb and have low self esteem and you have a recipe for all sorts of trouble.
true, true.

But thinking for yourself is SO 1997. And besides, koolaid is both tasty and refreshing!

the movement has been around for a over a hundred years, I have been hearing about the self proclaimed my entire life, I only heard of the "bad fundamentalist Christians" in 97.......when I got kicked out of class for debating religion when the teacher had brought it up, got in over his head, and got pissed because he was losing the debate.

I figured it had probably been around longer than I thought - although there isn't much on your list that just about every Christian denomination doesn't declare, hehe.

The closest thing I had heard of until fairly recently was a denomination known as Primitive Baptists. Of course, they're pretty crazy, if you ask me. A friend of mine couldn't have her father give her away because her husband-to-be was not Primitive Baptist (so they couldn't get married in that church) and her father was not allowed to attend services at any other church. Sounds more like the sociology version of fundamentalist than the self-declared kind to me.

true, true.

But thinking for yourself is SO 1997. And besides, koolaid is both tasty and refreshing!

And eating hot dogs on a Tuesday is absolutely necessary. Or, rather, completely banned. Or, rather, absolutely necessary!

I think that in terms of killing other people, and thus, actual lethality, Islamic Fundamentalism is worse. They both suck though.


depends on where you're from, Islamic people would contest who has killed more. They see every US president ending every speach with "God Bless America" and invading various countries over many decades. 9/11 cost 2,500-3000 lives, Reagan in his term is resposible for an estimated 250,000, Johnson 3million. Islamic Fundamentalists see the Christian USA as the enemy behind Fundamental Zionism which is responsible for far more deaths than 9/11.

you have to stand in the other guys shoes to see the world as he does.

Christian fundamentalism is more political and poses a threat to America only because it causes people like Bush to be in power.



The winner and still champion.

I figured it had probably been around longer than I thought - although there isn't much on your list that just about every Christian denomination doesn't declare, hehe.
most from a fundamental movement background, you have others that are Christian that get wishy-washy on some of them.

The closest thing I had heard of until fairly recently was a denomination known as Primitive Baptists. Of course, they're pretty crazy, if you ask me. A friend of mine couldn't have her father give her away because her husband-to-be was not Primitive Baptist (so they couldn't get married in that church) and her father was not allowed to attend services at any other church. Sounds more like the sociology version of fundamentalist than the self-declared kind to me.

we have those here, we have one next door, you know they can't wear pants (I mean the women)

oh, just about anything can justify insanity, take a leader who is charismatic, and a few people who are just a little bit dumb and have low self esteem and you have a recipe for all sorts of trouble.

Boy, doesn't the entire world know this. How could so many Americans be so dumb.

I appreciate folks' answers to my question about how they can see Christian Fundamentalism as such a threat. I'm also glad my prediction failed to come true.

But see, Christian Fundamentalists in the USA have a couple attributes that, in my mind, make them relatively harmless.

1)They are constrained by a common moral code, in other words, they don't see flying aircraft into massively populated buildings as a viable solution. They actually DON'T endorse murder. (Yes, I know about abortion clinic snipers, but they're universally cast off.)

2)In this country, they are patriotic, and thus are constrained by the Constitution. Sure, they may WANT to push their views on others, but they can only go so far. Someone mentioned Bush... so what? He's hardly turned the US into a theocracy.

By contrast, I see Islamic Fundamentalists as being devoid of honor, ethics, compassion, and they are NOT constrained by this or anyone's Constitution.

Islamic fundies want to kill or convert the infidels.

Christian fundies want to enslave the infidels, and kill Islamic fundies.

Christian fundies are worse. At least with Islam you're dead, and won't have to suffer.

In the end both ... Islamic fundamentalism is probably more of an absolute threat while christian fundamentalism is more of an immediate threat
I'd say it's the other way round. Islamic fundamentalists pose an immediate threat to Western lives, but they'll never defeat us. They can kill us, but they will never topple Western civilisation like they want. The Christian fundamentalists, whilst not blowing people up, have a much better chance of succeeding in toppling the Western way of life, since they're all over the place and have way too much influence in government.

They both suck. America has more than its fair share of fundies, who are trying to force their christian values on everyone. I suppose they could potentialy be worse, meaning they could affect more lives than the islamic terrorist have in the west, if they actually get more power. It would be horrible if that ever happened: making crazy laws against abortion, turning all schools into brainwashing camps, banning porn. :(

Although living in the UK, I should remain safe from all that. :)

Nope, you're not!!
Hasent the past few months and last year shown you anything? Or has your memory been dramatically shortened by porn? lol ;) j/k
Seriously, you have been bombed by islamofacists just last year, and just a few weeks ago they almost would have succeded in blowing out of the sky 11 British airways aircraft! Sorry, but I would rather live in a more Christian environment than haveing to worry about getting blown up on a bus/train/or plane everyday. At least the Christians are not for mass murder in the name of God, the Islamofacists are calling for the destruction of your nation everyday in the mosques! And your government ALLOWS IT!!!! I'm sorry, but I like it here in the states. at least I am not gonna get blown up by a christian fundi!

I'd say it's the other way round. Islamic fundamentalists pose an immediate threat to Western lives, but they'll never defeat us. They can kill us, but they will never topple Western civilisation like they want. The Christian fundamentalists, whilst not blowing people up, have a much better chance of succeeding in toppling the Western way of life, since they're all over the place and have way too much influence in government.

Actuatly, did you know that in history the Christian way of life is what made the Western civilization grow and prosper? Or did you fall asleep in history class again? :) If you look at history, almost EVERY nation (britain, Germany, France, Spain, The US, they all had very high Christian followers! Its only been in the last few decades that relgion is being demonized by the liberal idiots who would love to see all forms of religion shunned and destroyed. The West is dying, however its not from the Relgious right, its from the Godless left. just look at history and you will see everytime, after religion fails, the civilization crumbles.

I still find it fascinating that people even see a comparison.

My prediction for this thread:
Sooner or later someone will say "Islamic Terror has killed x people since x year"
Someone else will bring up Tim McVeigh (As if he were a valid example of Christian terrorism)
Someone else will probably mention the KKK, as if it too were a valid Christian group
people will get sick of the thread.

I wish I had that not this shit again pic. Gotta make a point to copy it next time...

You forgot the "Someone else will bring up abortion clinic bombings," and "Someone else will bring up the killing of abortion doctors." How could you forget those? HOW? :eek: :fluffle:

I hate both. Islamic Fundamendalists are clearly worse, but who can possibly tolerate Coulter, Chick, and Phelps?

Actuatly, did you know that in history the Christian way of life is what made the Western civilization grow and prosper? Or did you fall asleep in history class again? :) If you look at history, almost EVERY nation (britain, Germany, France, Spain, The US, they all had very high Christian followers! Its only been in the last few decades that relgion is being demonized by the liberal idiots who would love to see all forms of religion shunned and destroyed. The West is dying, however its not from the Relgious right, its from the Godless left. just look at history and you will see everytime, after religion fails, the civilization crumbles.

Maybe you were the one sleeping during the parts about the Crusades or the Inquistion. Or how about the Renaissance, which flowered the ideals of modern civilization. It grew in defiance of the attempts by the Church to stem the tide of advance. The West is not dying. The rest of world civilization is starting to break free of Western domination.

Bah, they both suck.

I hate both. Islamic Fundamendalists are clearly worse, but who can possibly tolerate Coulter, Chick, and Phelps?

The Coulter, Chick, and Phelps' families?

well, those aren't all THAT crazy;)

Not in and of themselves, no (although I disagree with the inerrancy part. The Bible contradicts itself to often to be inerrant). The problem arises from what those beliefs drive some to do. There's nothing inherently "wrong" or "evil" about the Five Pillars of Islam, either. It's what some are willing to do for that.

The Coulter, Chick, and Phelps' families?

Actually, some of Phelps' children are estranged and can't stand the man.

Uhh, Christian Fundamentalism is a massive misnomer in the way it's used today. As Smunkee pointed out, the "fundamentals" of Christianity exclusively deal with Biblical story of Jesus' birth, death and resurrection and the accuracy of the Bible. Things like abortion, homosexuality/gay-marriage, pre-marital sex, evolution, etc, that are usually associated with "fundamentalism" are anything BUT fundamental. At best they are Biblical afterthoughts, at the least they are the (much) later musings of Christ's followers. The fact that these things are given so much attention today over more Biblically powerful themes like non-violence, sacrifice, and charity is actually a sign that Christianity has become LESS fundamental and more humanistic (in an admittedly twisted kind of way).

One thing you must remember is that Christianity is absolutely VITAL to the evolution of the Western world and its values; liberal, conservative or otherwise. During the middle ages the Catholic Church and the governments of Europe were strikingly similar to the Islamic Theocracies that exist today. They were/are both oppressive, they both use social regression and ignorance as a means of self-perpetuation, they both enforced religious doctrine through the governing bodies. The difference between the two is that the Catholic church was REFORMED (see Protestant Reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation) for the high lights) which made possible and directly led to the the Age of Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment) from which virtually all our modern Western Values originate. The most relevant to this discussion would likely be the Separation of Church and State/Secular Governments. Islam on the other hand, had no comparable reformation, no Enlightenment and certainly no secular ideals.

The most important thing about all of this is that Christianity was irreversibly influenced by the evolution of Western values... It is less dogmatic, less absolute, more humanistic and more liberal then Islam is or ever was. Regardless of how you feel about it, Christianity has been watered down over the centuries. Today, for better and for worse, it has little or no resemblance to what it once was. Even the most "extreme" or "subversive" "Fundamentalist" would pale in comparison to the Mullahs of Iran and Saudi Arabia. Fred Phelps (who isn't a Christian in ANY sense of the word) perhaps talks about killing gays but he's never done so. In the Muslim Theocracies of the world, homosexuality is punishable by death. They are tortured to "make them straight," they are beaten to death, stoned, hung, beheaded, shot, etc, etc... THAT is the difference between the two.

Uhh, Christian Fundamentalism is a massive misnomer in the way it's used today. As Smunkee pointed out, the "fundamentals" of Christianity exclusively deal with Biblical story of Jesus' birth, death and resurrection and the accuracy of the Bible. Things like abortion, homosexuality/gay-marriage, pre-marital sex, evolution, etc, that are usually associated with "fundamentalism" are anything BUT fundamental.

And that is exactly how the word "fundamentalism" is used in sociology. It describes those who focus on some aspect of their religion they view as under attack, without paying much attention to the history or even basic doctrine of the religion.

One thing you must remember is that Christianity is absolutely VITAL to the evolution of the Western world and its values; liberal, conservative or otherwise. During the middle ages the Catholic Church and the governments of Europe were strikingly similar to the Islamic Theocracies that exist today. They were/are both oppressive, they both use social regression and ignorance as a means of self-perpetuation, they both enforced religious doctrine through the governing bodies. The difference between the two is that the Catholic church was REFORMED (see Protestant Reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation) for the high lights) which made possible and directly led to the the Age of Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment) from which virtually all our modern Western Values originate. The most relevant to this discussion would likely be the Separation of Church and State/Secular Governments. Islam on the other hand, had no comparable reformation, no Enlightenment and certainly no secular ideals.

It might be interesting to note that, at the moment, Islam is pretty much the same age that Christianity was during the Dark Ages. It hasn't had the same amount of time to reform and modify its philosophies on the large scale.

Actuatly, did you know that in history the Christian way of life is what made the Western civilization grow and prosper? Or did you fall asleep in history class again? :) If you look at history, almost EVERY nation (britain, Germany, France, Spain, The US, they all had very high Christian followers! Its only been in the last few decades that relgion is being demonized by the liberal idiots who would love to see all forms of religion shunned and destroyed. The West is dying, however its not from the Relgious right, its from the Godless left. just look at history and you will see everytime, after religion fails, the civilization crumbles.
China and Arabia managed to do just as well as the West, if not better. Anyway, Christianity hardly has a huge influence on the advancement of civilisation these days, what with your popes and bishops speaking against science and civil rights etc. I have no problem with moderate Christians: none of my business who or what you worship. I do have a problem with insane fundies who try and make other people's lives their business.
Name me an instance of religion crumbling -> civilisation failing. Take the Roman Empire... Converts to Christianity, gets overrun by barbarian hordes :p
-

Uhh, Christian Fundamentalism is a massive misnomer in the way it's used today. As Smunkee pointed out, the "fundamentals" of Christianity exclusively deal with Biblical story of Jesus' birth, death and resurrection and the accuracy of the Bible. Things like abortion, homosexuality/gay-marriage, pre-marital sex, evolution, etc, that are usually associated with "fundamentalism" are anything BUT fundamental. At best they are Biblical afterthoughts, at the least they are the (much) later musings of Christ's followers. The fact that these things are given so much attention today over more Biblically powerful themes like non-violence, sacrifice, and charity is actually a sign that Christianity has become LESS fundamental and more humanistic (in an admittedly twisted kind of way)...
That is very much open to question. "Christian Fundamentalism" as a term simply implies adhering to the core nature of what it is to be "Christian" rather than necessarily what it is to be "someone who listens to Christ"; a difference that is, ironically, a very fundamental one. To be nominatively Christian is a quality in conceptual isolation to the ideas of Jesus of Nazareth, despite any overlap of the two in practice, and yet it is this taking on of an identity that ultimately defines whether one can be fairly called it. Perhaps, in focusing on the social and political aspects of Christianity the Religious Organisation, such individuals are indeed invoking the Fundamental nature of what it is they stand for.

China and Arabia managed to do just as well as the West, if not better. Anyway, Christianity hardly has a huge influence on the advancement of civilisation these days, what with your popes and bishops speaking against science and civil rights etc. I have no problem with moderate Christians: none of my business who or what you worship. I do have a problem with insane fundies who try and make other people's lives their business.
Name me an instance of religion crumbling -> civilisation failing. Take the Roman Empire... Converts to Christianity, gets overrun by barbarian hordes :p
-

http://killeenroos.com/1/Romefall.htm

if ya wanna blaime Christianity for that, well, look at this!

Compare then and now!

Islamic fundamentalists kill more people. At the moment.
Christian fundamentalists constantly try to directly infringe upon my rights. At the moment.

The might change sometime in the future, but at the moment, I'd say both suck big time.

And that is exactly how the word "fundamentalism" is used in sociology. It describes those who focus on some aspect of their religion they view as under attack, without paying much attention to the history or even basic doctrine of the religion.

Fair enough, if that's how they wish to describe it. I'm certainly not denying that there are people who put those things before the more important Biblical values. I simply don't personally associate that mind-set with the fundamentals of Christianity. In fact these things are barely related with anything to do with Christ. *shrugs* It's just how you define things I suppose.

It might be interesting to note that, at the moment, Islam is pretty much the same age that Christianity was during the Dark Ages. It hasn't had the same amount of time to reform and modify its philosophies on the large scale.

Very true, though it is high time that their own Martin Luther shows himself. Islam today is a religion that desperately needs reformation, not to mention secular revolution. Regardless of that, just because they are young doesn't excuse them of the brutality and intolerance inherent in their governments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2MZwxJRYI&eurl=
watch this video,
I know its from youtube but watch the Islamic Fundies.
I am WAY more scared of their plans for us then the Christians!

Nope, you're not!!
Hasent the past few months and last year shown you anything? Or has your memory been dramatically shortened by porn? lol ;) j/k
Seriously, you have been bombed by islamofacists just last year, and just a few weeks ago they almost would have succeded in blowing out of the sky 11 British airways aircraft! Sorry, but I would rather live in a more Christian environment than haveing to worry about getting blown up on a bus/train/or plane everyday. At least the Christians are not for mass murder in the name of God, the Islamofacists are calling for the destruction of your nation everyday in the mosques! And your government ALLOWS IT!!!! I'm sorry, but I like it here in the states. at least I am not gonna get blown up by a christian fundi!

Er... if I recall correctly, more people were blown up by Islamist fundamentalists in your country than there were in the UK.
And more people were killed by Christian fundamentalists (abortion doctors, anyone?) in your country than in the UK.

Just to get the facts straight.

You forgot the "Someone else will bring up abortion clinic bombings," and "Someone else will bring up the killing of abortion doctors." How could you forget those? HOW? :eek: :fluffle:

Oops... sorry to be that predictable. :cool:

Er... if I recall correctly, more people were blown up by Islamist fundamentalists in your country than there were in the UK.
And more people were killed by Christian fundamentalists (abortion doctors, anyone?) in your country than in the UK.

Just to get the facts straight.

yeah, uh 3,000 in one main attack. 9-11 plus the WTC1993. I know about those.
thats pretty bad.
Now imagin if that last attempted attack actually happened, the one that was stopped just a few weeks ago. Imagine the death and destruction then, blowing up 11 airplanes. man, I am glad we both dodged that bullet. However, in my country I dont have Christian preists telling us we should go out and kill in the name of God and Jesus. Nor do we have Death to Isreal, and Death to Islam being told to us every Sunday at mass.

Er... if I recall correctly, more people were blown up by Islamist fundamentalists in your country than there were in the UK.
And more people were killed by Christian fundamentalists (abortion doctors, anyone?) in your country than in the UK.

Just to get the facts straight.

wait, more than 3000 abortion doctors were killed in my country?
Wow, you;d think that would have been in the news like crazy!!!! How could I have missed that? Oh thats right, all of the media outlets are all controlled by the "evil" right wing. I'm sorry I didnt know!! :rollseyes:

yeah, uh 3,000 in one main attack. 9-11 plus the WTC1993. I know about those.
thats pretty bad.
Now imagin if that last attempted attack actually happened, the one that was stopped just a few weeks ago. Imagine the death and destruction then, blowing up 11 airplanes. man, I am glad we both dodged that bullet. However, in my country I dont have Christian preists telling us we should go out and kill in the name of God and Jesus. Nor do we have Death to Isreal, and Death to Islam being told to us every Sunday at mass.

Nope, you have Islamic fundamentalists threatening to do that. And you have Christians threatening to kill you if you write letters defending the theory of evolution, or if you are a doctor performing abortions...

*shrug

They're both a damn nuisance in my book.

wait, more than 3000 abortion doctors were killed in my country?

WHERE did I say anything about 3000 doctors being killed? Are you by any chance related to Cybach? Or is it just "put words into Cabra's mouth" day on NSG??? :mad:

Nope, you have Islamic fundamentalists threatening to do that. And you have Christians threatening to kill you if you write letters defending the theory of evolution, or if you are a doctor performing abortions...

*shrug

They're both a damn nuisance in my book.

I dont recall seeing on TV huge masses of Christian fundies pouring into streets chanting, "Death to Evolution! Death to abortion doctors!" with AK-47s being fired into the air. Nor did I see hooded members with pictures of Jesus behind them demanding the World bow down to their beliefs or face a consuming fire of hell that will destroy all non-believers. The people behind those attacks were a VERY, VERY small minority of Christian faith. However, you see the Islamic world, and that is almost the SSDD. Death to the West, death to the Jews, death to the Christians, Buddists, Hindus, death to all infidels. I'm sorry, but Islamic fundies are much bigger problem to the world than some Christian fundies!

I dont recall seeing on TV huge masses of Christian fundies pouring into streets chanting, "Death to Evolution! Death to abortion doctors!" with AK-47s being fired into the air. Nor did I see hooded members with pictures of Jesus behind them demanding the World bow down to their beliefs or face a consuming fire of hell that will destroy all non-believers. The people behind those attacks were a VERY, VERY small minority of Christian faith. However, you see the Islamic world, and that is almost the SSDD. Death to the West, death to the Jews, death to the Christians, Buddists, Hindus, death to all infidels. I'm sorry, but Islamic fundies are much bigger problem to the world than some Christian fundies!
The difference is one of social desperation and circumstance rather than of attitude. If you were part of a community being occupied and pushed around like playing pieces by some warring factions for decades on end, you'd be up in arms too. Paramilitary activity is a trademark of the underprivileged, repressed and pissed off, and it just so happens that the Middle East is full to overflowing of them thanks in no small part to the Christian Values versus Godless Heathen Communist conflict that was the Cold War. Were the Christian Fundies subjected to the same treatment, they'd react in exactly the same way; of that I am most sure, having lived almost all of my life in a Western community that has done exactly that.

The problem is not the people; they have plenty to be annoyed at. At times like these, we should be working with them to allow them to overcome their difficulties and to remove their need for such hostilities, not demonising them and adding more fuel to the flames of discontent.

The difference is one of social desperation and circumstance rather than of attitude. If you were part of a community being occupied and pushed around like playing pieces by some warring factions for decades on end, you'd be up in arms too. Paramilitary activity is a trademark of the underprivileged, repressed and pissed off, and it just so happens that the Middle East is full to overflowing of them thanks in no small part to the Christian Values versus Godless Heathen Communist conflict that was the Cold War. Were the Christian Fundies subjected to the same treatment, they'd react in exactly the same way; of that I am most sure, having lived almost all of my life in a Western community that has done exactly that.

The problem is not the people; they have plenty to be annoyed at. At times like these, we should be working with them to allow them to overcome their difficulties and to remove their need for such hostilities, not demonising them and adding more fuel to the flames of discontent.

And what is holding the people back in, say, Iran? or Lebanon? or Yeman? Syria? They are not occupied. Saudi Arabia is not occupied. What you see is a 7th century civilization in the 21st centiry, and they refuse to go with the times. Just look at the immams there. They feed the hate, the rage, the garbage to hate the west and all other religions. They instill it into all of the young boys in those mosques that they should hate the west and kill all non-believers. Sharia Law. not sure if thats how its spelled, but that is what they want. I am not sure sending peace officers to the Middle East will solve anything except provide more hostages for them. All of those demonstrations were in support of their backward view of Islam. They hail terrorists who blow up women and children as honerable men and want their kids to do the same. All in the name of Allah! I dont think I have ever heard of a christian fundi yelling "For Jesus!!!" As he bombs an abortion clinic or kills a doctor. Plus when was the last tie we have heard of something like that?

And what is holding the people back in, say, Iran? or Lebanon? or Yeman? Syria? They are not occupied. Saudi Arabia is not occupied. What you see is a 7th century civilization in the 21st centiry, and they refuse to go with the times. Just look at the immams there. They feed the hate, the rage, the garbage to hate the west and all other religions. They instill it into all of the young boys in those mosques that they should hate the west and kill all non-believers. Sharia Law. not sure if thats how its spelled, but that is what they want. I am not sure sending peace officers to the Middle East will solve anything except provide more hostages for them. All of those demonstrations were in support of their backward view of Islam. They hail terrorists who blow up women and children as honerable men and want their kids to do the same. All in the name of Allah! I dont think I have ever heard of a christian fundi yelling "For Jesus!!!" As he bombs an abortion clinic or kills a doctor. Plus when was the last tie we have heard of something like that?
I'm going to go all broken-record on you and say again that it's all about repression, poverty and being fed up with the poor state their world is in.

The truth is that what they want is a good life, just like you and I. They want to be able to live in comfort with a fairly paid job in a field they are interested in so they can stay active, enjoy the world and all it has to offer and provide for themselves and their own without having to constantly look over their shoulder for fear of having it all taken away from them. Everything else is but a means to this end.

The further people are from it, the more appealing the idea seems and the further they will be willing to go to try to bring it about. It does not matter whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew or any other social assignment; your radicalisation is directly related to your desperation. Extremism in Christianity is not so commonplace because, quite frankly, you have it easy. I don't doubt for one second that were America Islamic and the Middle East Christian, there would be an absolutely perfect swap in the public expressions of both religious groups; not due to either religion themselves, but due to the human nature of their members and the respective burdens placed upon each of them.

The religious fundamentalists of Jesus time didn't kill. They hired soldiers to do the dirty work for them.

The "christian?" fundamentalists of today don't kill. They hire soldiers to do the dirty work for them.

Who did Jesus critisize the most?

Fundementalism in any form is dangerous and should be eradicated.