NationStates Jolt Archive

Medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas said of Greed: "it is a sin directly against one's neighbor, since one man cannot over-abound in external riches, without another man lacking them... it is a sin against God, just as all mortal sins, inasmuch as man contemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things."

Calling for opinions, does the above quote mean that Capitalism has damned us all? (in Christianty's eyes)

Calling for opinions, does the above quote mean that Capitalism has damned us all?Well, this is Aquinas we're talking about. I remember no one in the Church cares about his statements on a bundle of cells not having a soul either.

Calling for opinions, does the above quote mean that Capitalism has damned us all?

No. First of all, capitalism sets up a system where each person involved in a transaction gets what he wants. Nobody is robbed ro ripped off especially when government regulates capitalism to prevent abuses. Secondly Aquinus seems to think that nobody can get rich without making others poor. Well, that's not true. Ron Popeil got rich hawking gadgets on TV infomercials. He's created jobs for people, and he's sold product, but nobody's gone broke buying a Popeil pocket fisherman.

Fire is capable of destruction on a grand scale, we can see that fact throughout all of the wars that mankind has fought. Burning, bombing and blasting each other into smithereens. Yet, fire is what drives the great industrial engines of the world. Fire was vital in taking our species from being cavemen who lived for 25 years in cold, dank caves, to space faring, atom smashing dynamos whose lifespan can exceed a century. All because we managed to figure out how to harness the power of fire for our own benefit.

Much like fire, greed is capable of destruction, but when harnessed, it can do tremendous good.

Well, this is Aquinas we're talking about. I remember no one in the Church cares about his statements on a bundle of cells not having a soul either.

Some do, actually. Myself included.

Hmm...There was a song that I can't remember right now....WOuld be appropriate...

Calling for opinions, does the above quote mean that Capitalism has damned us all? (in Christianty's eyes)

Capitalism CAN incite greed, but it is not a necessary component. There are many people who work within the capitalist system to raise funds to be used to help others, not themselves. It seems, like any other system, it depends on the parties involved.

Capitalism CAN incite greed, but it is not a necessary component. There are many people who work within the capitalist system to raise funds to be used to help others, not themselves. It seems, like any other system, it depends on the parties involved.

Actually the best term is self interest, when dealing with capitalism, because self interest may include many factors.

Well we look at it distortedly often. We say how unfair it is that someone can get as rich as Bill Gates and John D Rockefeller. But we forget one key fact, at least in America, I would say more then half if not most substancially rich people found charities and organizations to help the underpriviledged. Rockefeller gave the mass of his fortune to charity after his death. Bill Gates pledged roughly 90% of his wealth to charity. I know very few prominent rich people in the US who do not either own or support a charity and give substancial sums, of course some do it simply for increased social standing, but the fact remains.

Are these people guitly of greed? They have amassed fortunes, but at some point in their lives return the mass bulk to truly underpriviledged people, education, and the building of social infrastructure (hospitals, churches, and universities).

Actually the best term is self interest, when dealing with capitalism, because self interest may include many factors.

Even the interests of others that are important to the self, for whatever reason.

To expound on Andaluciae's point, giving resources to others for no material resources in return is not antithetical to capitalism at all. If one chooses to give money to an orphanage or a library in a capitalist system, they are still advancing self-interest, as that individual has some interest, even if wholly intangible, in that orphanage or library's success. In other words, self interest can include ones beyond the self.

Self interest drives the success of capitalism. When one defrauds anohter, that is fraud, not capitalism. Fraud can thrive under any economic system, though in different ways. When gifts/grants/programs become compulsary, that is not capitalism either. When work becomes compulsary, that is slavery, not capitalism.

Well we look at it distortedly often. We say how unfair it is that someone can get as rich as Bill Gates and John D Rockefeller. But we forget one key fact, at least in America, I would say more then half if not most substancially rich people found charities and organizations to help the underpriviledged. Rockefeller gave the mass of his fortune to charity after his death. Bill Gates pledged roughly 90% of his wealth to charity. I know very few prominent rich people in the US who do not either own or support a charity and give substancial sums, of course some do it simply for increased social standing, but the fact remains.

Are these people guitly of greed? They have amassed fortunes, but at some point in their lives return the mass bulk to truly underpriviledged people, education, and the building of social infrastructure (hospitals, churches, and universities).
But is such charity activity actually a part of the idea of capitalism, or simply the capitalistic society as we practice it? I think the latter.

Calling for opinions, does the above quote mean that Capitalism has damned us all? (in Christianty's eyes)
What this means is that Aquinas didn't understand economics at all.

Greed is ok.

The problem is when it turns into avarice.

Greed is ok.

The problem is when it turns into avarice.

What is the difference, as you see it?

Even the interests of others that are important to the self, for whatever reason.

To expound on Andaluciae's point, giving resources to others for no material resources in return is not antithetical to capitalism at all. If one chooses to give money to an orphanage or a library in a capitalist system, they are still advancing self-interest, as that individual has some interest, even if wholly intangible, in that orphanage or library's success. In other words, self interest can include ones beyond the self.

Self interest drives the success of capitalism. When one defrauds anohter, that is fraud, not capitalism. Fraud can thrive under any economic system, though in different ways. When gifts/grants/programs become compulsary, that is not capitalism either. When work becomes compulsary, that is slavery, not capitalism.

Couldn't have said it better. Thank you.

Even the interests of others that are important to the self, for whatever reason.

To expound on Andaluciae's point, giving resources to others for no material resources in return is not antithetical to capitalism at all. If one chooses to give money to an orphanage or a library in a capitalist system, they are still advancing self-interest, as that individual has some interest, even if wholly intangible, in that orphanage or library's success. In other words, self interest can include ones beyond the self.

Self interest drives the success of capitalism. When one defrauds anohter, that is fraud, not capitalism. Fraud can thrive under any economic system, though in different ways. When gifts/grants/programs become compulsary, that is not capitalism either. When work becomes compulsary, that is slavery, not capitalism.
The reason that greed is a sin is that it is "the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual." Capitalism, as an idea, promotes gain and wealth (whether at the expense of others or not), and has no inherent spiritual component.

http://www.deadlysins.com/sins/greed.html

But is such charity activity actually a part of the idea of capitalism, or simply the capitalistic society as we practice it? I think the latter.

Charity is one of the main tenents of many religions, very emphasized in christianity, and to some degree I suppose a part of our innate humanity. But not part of scientific thinking insofar as Darwinism, if we would follow Darwin we should starve every bum and screw all those that failed to achieve. So I would say it is simply the way we as imperfect humans practice capitalism, just as the way humans practiced communism led to roughly 100 million deaths in the last century.

Charity is one of the main tenents of many religions, very emphasized in christianity, and to some degree I suppose a part of our innate humanity. But not part of scientific thinking insofar as Darwinism, if we would follow Darwin we should starve every bum and screw all those that failed to achieve. So I would say it is simply the way we as imperfect humans practice capitalism, just as the way humans practiced communism led to roughly 100 million deaths in the last century.

LOL

Does bringing Darwin into a debate hold the same connotations as bringing Hitler into a debate (I wonder)?

The reason that greed is a sin is that it is "the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual." Capitalism, as an idea, promotes gain and wealth (whether at the expense of others or not), and has no inherent spiritual component.

http://www.deadlysins.com/sins/greed.html

Good point, but I don't think that this makes it a lock that capitalism is against Christianity. Ignoring the realm of the spiritual is the key, it think, though the persuit of material wealth or gain does not automatically preclude that. also, when such persuit is attained through providing needed/wanted goods or services to others, is that in itself bad? If that is not the case, then I can't see capitalism being any more antithetical to Christianity than any other "-ism" out there, economic or not, unless it's catechism. I'm not the world's expert on Christianity though, as some dogma seems to change from denomination to denomination and church to church, and I don't go to one in the first place.

Calling for opinions, does the above quote mean that Capitalism has damned us all? (in Christianty's eyes)
Hmmm, nope.
Though Feudalism and the vassal state rules supreme.

What is the difference, as you see it?

Gutting a company for personal gain.

Destroying a great product with lessor materials to increase profit.

Setting your position for reward when you are hired, succed, fail or fired.