NationStates Jolt Archive

Evil ACLU lawyers and the atheist, secular-humanist court system have banded together once again to trample the rights of decent, god-fearing, Christian Americans. A school in Missouri has been working with the Gideons to distribute bibles to their fifth grade students. A coalition of terrible, unchristian parents and their traitorous, unamerican ACLU lawyers took the school to court to stop this wholesome practice. Of course the liberal judge ruled in their favor. What ever happened to freedom of religion?

Seriously though, it's good to see the ACLU and judges stand up for the constitution.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060907/ap_on_re_us/bibles_for_kids_lawsuit

Oh jeez...predictably, Jerry Falwell's cronies at Fundie University are pissed about this ruling. Tell me where it says that public schools have the right to pass out Bibles to students in the Constitution.

Tell me where it says that public schools have the right to pass out Bibles to students in the Constitution.

It really shouldn't but my high school had a Bible club so who knows?

It really shouldn't but my high school had a Bible club so who knows?

If it's organized and run by the students it's ok, but if the faculty organize and promote it it could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause.

Yeah, I agree with you DCD.

If it's organized and run by the students it's ok, but if the faculty organize and promote it it could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause.

Ah. Still, if the club meets on school grounds then it results in the same thing, the school supporting the religious club.

If it's organized and run by the students it's ok, but if the faculty organize and promote it it could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause.

Where I live, the Bible club can't meet on school grounds. Any praying has to take place outside the building, unless you're a Muslim, in which case you get a room to pray in.

They figure that a Christian can wait until school is over, while a Muslim has a requirement to pray at specific times.

The Muslims also get a teacher to supervise (to make sure they're praying, and not fooling around).

Personally, I think there should be no religion on school grounds - period. Not for anyone, at any time, for any reason.

If you want a Bible, you can go to the church and pick one up.

Ah. Still, if the club meets on school grounds then it results in the same thing, the school supporting the religious club.

No, it's akin to the holiday display rule, where, so long as you can put up a symbol of any holiday you like (Christmas tree, Menorah, Festivus Pole, whatever). If anyone can freely meet, then it's OK.

Where I live, the Bible club can't meet on school grounds. Any praying has to take place outside the building, unless you're a Muslim, in which case you get a room to pray in.

They figure that a Christian can wait until school is over, while a Muslim has a requirement to pray at specific times.

The Muslims also get a teacher to supervise (to make sure they're praying, and not fooling around).

Personally, I think there should be no religion on school grounds - period. Not for anyone, at any time, for any reason.

If you want a Bible, you can go to the church and pick one up.

I agree, and if you need to pray because of your religion, you can pray at your desk and you can keep after yourself instead of having a teacher look after you. After all the teacher is there to teach, not to be your babysitter.

Ah. Still, if the club meets on school grounds then it results in the same thing, the school supporting the religious club.
Since no school authority figures are organizing and promoting the bible club it's not like the school's actually endorsing religion there, in my opinion anyway. It's more like the school not interfering with the student's religious practice. Of course they've got to allow students with other religious beliefs the same rights too.

I agree, and if you need to pray because of your religion, you can pray at your desk and you can keep after yourself instead of having a teacher look after you. After all the teacher is there to teach, not to be your babysitter.

I'm not an expert but afaik the muslim prayers couldn't be performed sat at a desk.

Where I live, the Bible club can't meet on school grounds. Any praying has to take place outside the building, unless you're a Muslim, in which case you get a room to pray in.

They figure that a Christian can wait until school is over, while a Muslim has a requirement to pray at specific times.

The Muslims also get a teacher to supervise (to make sure they're praying, and not fooling around).

Just like last time you said this I'm calling bullshit. There is nothing in US law that prevents any student at any time from praying silently. They are however prevented from praying in a manner that could cause a disturbance or trying to get others (especialy those who don't want to) to pray with them. If your school system truly is preventing Christian, Jewish, Pagan, Jedi, Erisian, or whatever students from quietly bowing their heads and saying a silent prayer then they are setting themselves up for a lawsuit that they will not win.

<edit: I'm not calling bullshit on the claim that the religious clubs can't meet on school grounds, only on the claim that Christians are not allowed to pray on school grounds.>

I'm not an expert but afaik the muslim prayers couldn't be performed sat at a desk.

Yea, the rug thing, but why should they get a special room though? I mean wouldn't that just be another case of violating seperation of church and state?

I'm not an expert but afaik the muslim prayers couldn't be performed sat at a desk.

That's tough. They don't have to pray in the school building. While my county puts them in a spare room for that purpose, I think it's patently a state sponsorship of their religion.

No religion in school, period. Ever. For any reason.

You can make it up to God or Allah when you get home.

Since no school authority figures are organizing and promoting the bible club it's not like the school's actually endorsing religion there, in my opinion anyway. It's more like the school not interfering with the student's religious practice. Of course they've got to allow students with other religious beliefs the same rights too.

I can understand the arguement but it just seems that the school gives its approval to practicing religion on school grounds even if they have no active part in organizing the club. The same thing with the above post on Christmas trees on school grounds. They are a religious symbol and shouldn't be allowed. If you can't have the Ten Commandments, then Christmas trees and Bible clubs shouldn't be allowed either.

That's tough. They don't have to pray in the school building. While my county puts them in a spare room for that purpose, I think it's patently a state sponsorship of their religion.

No religion in school, period. Ever. For any reason.

You can make it up to God or Allah when you get home.

No you can't make it up to allah when you get home. It is a requirement of the religion that you pray 5 times a day and I would support the setting aside a spcae for the prayers of any religion that required it at specific times. This isn't the school sponsoring religion, this is the school allowing religious freedom and the school allowing the use of a seperate room is just common sense as the muslim pupils praying in the classrooms would be nothing more than a disruption for the other studerns.

Yea, the rug thing, but why should they get a special room though? I mean wouldn't that just be another case of violating seperation of church and state?

The seperate room thing is simply common sense. How much work do you think would get done in the room with a couple of muslims performing a prayer ritual involving them moving a praying out loud?

I rather disapprove of the "France" method of dealing with religion in schools, and would far prefer the acceptance of a free exercise method, rather than banning.

No you can't make it up to allah when you get home. It is a requirement of the religion that you pray 5 times a day and I would support the setting aside a spcae for the prayers of any religion that required it at specific times. This isn't the school sponsoring religion, this is the school allowing religious freedom and the school allowing the use of a seperate room is just common sense as the muslim pupils praying in the classrooms would be nothing more than a disruption for the other studerns.

My kids can't pray over their lunch, alone, aloud, in the lunchroom. It's a requirement of our Christian religion to pray before a meal. But it's forbidden - you get sent home for doing it.

Technically, we can't make it up to God later (although that's what I tell my kids - we'll make it up when you get home).

If we are told "no exceptions", and "tough", then it should be "tough" for everyone.

Period. Always. I don't have a problem with it as long as the policy is completely uniform.

That's tough. They don't have to pray in the school building. While my county puts them in a spare room for that purpose, I think it's patently a state sponsorship of their religion.

No religion in school, period. Ever. For any reason.

You can make it up to God or Allah when you get home.

A Muslim has specific requirements for praying and must pray at specific times of day. A Christian has no such requirements. The school is providing both Christians and Muslims with a place to practice their religion throughout the school day. Seems fair to me.

As for the OP, I'm glad that the ACLU is doing what it can to stop the school from handing out Bibles. If a student wants to do it, fine.

My kids can't pray over their lunch, alone, aloud, in the lunchroom. It's a requirement of our Christian religion to pray before a meal. But it's forbidden - you get sent home for doing it.

I don't believe you.

That's tough. They don't have to pray in the school building.

Yes. They do. They are required by their religion to pray at certain times of day. Christians are not required to pray at any certain time and furthermore can pray silently at their desk or lunch table at anytime they wish.

My kids can't pray over their lunch, alone, aloud, in the lunchroom. It's a requirement of our Christian religion to pray before a meal. But it's forbidden - you get sent home for doing it.

Technically, we can't make it up to God later (although that's what I tell my kids - we'll make it up when you get home).

If we are told "no exceptions", and "tough", then it should be "tough" for everyone.

Period. Always. I don't have a problem with it as long as the policy is completely uniform.
You should write to the ACLU and see if they'll support your kid's right to pray out loud at lunch. I've got a feeling that they would take the case.

My kids can't pray over their lunch, alone, aloud, in the lunchroom. It's a requirement of our Christian religion to pray before a meal. But it's forbidden - you get sent home for doing it.


But unless you belong to a sect I've never heard of it is not required that you pray outloud.

Edit: I was a Christian for the first 13 years of my life. Show me the Bible verse that says you are required to pray before a meal. I will counter with the one that requires you to pray in private.

My kids can't pray over their lunch, alone, aloud, in the lunchroom. It's a requirement of our Christian religion to pray before a meal. But it's forbidden - you get sent home for doing it.

Technically, we can't make it up to God later (although that's what I tell my kids - we'll make it up when you get home).

If we are told "no exceptions", and "tough", then it should be "tough" for everyone.

Period. Always. I don't have a problem with it as long as the policy is completely uniform.

Where in the bible does it say that you have to pray out loud over your lunch?

I don't believe you.

Sorry you're a Canadian who isn't here to see it for yourself.

Ah. Still, if the club meets on school grounds then it results in the same thing, the school supporting the religious club.

To not allow them to meet would be to work against a religion which is just as "bad" if not worse.

But unless you belong to a sect I've never heard of it is not required that you pray outloud.

Edit: I was a Christian for the first 13 years of my life. Show me the Bible verse that says you are required to pray before a meal. I will counter with the one that requires you to pray in private.

It's not my concern whether they're required to do so or not. Free exercise is my concern, and if they should choose to pray aloud over their lunch, then so be it.

Where in the bible does it say that you have to pray out loud over your lunch?

It's called "free exercise".

According to interpretations of the book of Matthew, I could demand a separate room as well. But I've been told that's out of the question.

Interesting that while one religion can offer its own interpretation, and get that approved, that another cannot - the interpretation is either made for it, or ignored.

It really shouldn't but my high school had a Bible club so who knows?

My school has a bible club, the Muslim Students Association, a Sikh club, and a Hindu studies club. Our gym has the flag of Saudi Arabia(which has a verse from the quran btw), and muslims are allowed to pray in a seperate room, as are Sikhs. I don't see why schools have do be so damn politically correct...

My school has a bible club, the Muslim Students Association, a Sikh club, and a Hindu studies club. Our gym has the flag of Saudi Arabia(which has a verse from the quran btw), and muslims are allowed to pray in a seperate room, as are Sikhs. I don't see why schools have do be so damn politically correct...

My high school had a bible club, but none of the other groups. Of course, that probably has a lot to do with the fact that my high school had virtually no members of the other groups. Ah, good old Hoover High, home of the white, upper-middle class, Christian, Republican youth.

It's called "free exercise".

According to interpretations of the book of Matthew, I could demand a separate room as well. But I've been told that's out of the question.

Interesting that while one religion can offer its own interpretation, and get that approved, that another cannot - the interpretation is either made for it, or ignored.

But this isn't a question of free exercise, it's a question of the requirement of the religion. If you can prove that the bible requires christians to pray out loud at set times during the day then you have a case with the school, if you can't then you are just griping for the sake of it.

My kids can't pray over their lunch, alone, aloud, in the lunchroom. It's a requirement of our Christian religion to pray before a meal. But it's forbidden - you get sent home for doing it.

thats horrible, what is the logical reason behind such a rule? I can understand schools and faculty not endorsing a religion, but why can't private citizens(Students)?

But this isn't a question of free exercise, it's a question of the requirement of the religion. If you can prove that the bible requires christians to pray out loud at set times during the day then you have a case with the school, if you can't then you are just griping for the sake of it.

I could easily use a passage in Matthew to demand a room. But we have no case, because the ACLU does not see it that way, and neither does the school.

I could easily use a passage in Matthew to demand a room. But we have no case, because the ACLU does not see it that way, and neither does the school.

Which passage?

thats horrible, what is the logical reason behind such a rule? I can understand schools and faculty not endorsing a religion, but why can't private citizens(Students)?

One explanation that I received from the school principal was that any public display (even silent prayer) would intimidate non-Christians into thinking that they weren't doing "the right thing".

The ACLU agrees that even a "moment of silence" by a minority of the people in the room would be an illegal exercise of religion.

My high school had a bible club, but none of the other groups. Of course, that probably has a lot to do with the fact that my high school had virtually no members of the other groups. Ah, good old Hoover High, home of the white, upper-middle class, Christian, Republican youth.

My old middle-school was like that, our minority population was called Eddy that black kid who was adopted from flint:rolleyes:

That's tough. They don't have to pray in the school building. While my county puts them in a spare room for that purpose, I think it's patently a state sponsorship of their religion.

No religion in school, period. Ever. For any reason.

You can make it up to God or Allah when you get home.
This is all just one more reason to eliminate the public school system. It's failing to educate students, it makes ridiculous choices when trying to be secular, it's completely unresponsive to its customers ...

But this isn't a question of free exercise, it's a question of the requirement of the religion. If you can prove that the bible requires christians to pray out loud at set times during the day then you have a case with the school, if you can't then you are just griping for the sake of it.

I don't believe that requirement is necessary for determining free exercise.

I don't believe that requirement is necessary for determining free exercise.

In this case it is, muslims are provided with a place to pray not because they have chosen to pray during school hours but because it is a requirement of their religion. If other religions had the same requirement then I'm sure the school would provide them with facilities as well.

In this case it is, muslims are provided with a place to pray not because they have chosen to pray during school hours but because it is a requirement of their religion. If other religions had the same requirement then I'm sure the school would provide them with facilities as well.

Our particular church does have the requirement to pray at meals. We were told by the school that anything that even looked like prayer (including silent prayer with your eyes closed) was forbidden. Intimidating to others, we were told.

The school principal said that because the district is unfamiliar with Islam, they count on the Muslims to provide an interpretation of their religion. However, with Christianity (in all of its heterodoxy) they feel sufficiently familiar with it to decide for themselves without asking us.

Like I said, I'm fine with EVERYONE doing NOTHING religious at school. Just be consistent about it.

One explanation that I received from the school principal was that any public display (even silent prayer) would intimidate non-Christians into thinking that they weren't doing "the right thing".

The ACLU agrees that even a "moment of silence" by a minority of the people in the room would be an illegal exercise of religion.

stupidity, pure and uncut. When I see an orthodox khalsa saint sikh walking around my school wearing a turbin I don't think

"OMG what if everything christ taught me is a lie, and the guru granth is the real word of god!?"

I think:

"man i'm glad I don't have to wear that thing in this heat, that guy's hair must smell like a gymsock."

Our particular church does have the requirement to pray at meals. We were told by the school that anything that even looked like prayer (including silent prayer with your eyes closed) was forbidden. Intimidating to others, we were told.

The school principal said that because the district is unfamiliar with Islam, they count on the Muslims to provide an interpretation of their religion. However, with Christianity (in all of its heterodoxy) they feel sufficiently familiar with it to decide for themselves without asking us.

Like I said, I'm fine with EVERYONE doing NOTHING religious at school. Just be consistent about it.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11654540&postcount=35

To not allow them to meet would be to work against a religion which is just as "bad" if not worse.

It is not the job of a school to work with a religion.

My school has a bible club, the Muslim Students Association, a Sikh club, and a Hindu studies club. Our gym has the flag of Saudi Arabia(which has a verse from the quran btw), and muslims are allowed to pray in a seperate room, as are Sikhs. I don't see why schools have do be so damn politically correct...

All that is great but the school has no business giving any kind of support whatsoever to any religious group. Even if it is just allowing use of their classrooms for these religious groups. If they want to practice their religious beliefs, go to their house of worship, not on school grounds.

I'm so glad we don't have this level of angst and legal problems in the UK (or not to anything like the same extent). We had prayers and hymns as a part of morning assembly at school (along with news/praise/tellings off for the whole school), which you could opt out of if you were another faith or none - no one did, as far as I remember, because no one cared enough. If you were of a minority faith, you could practise it as you would during school hours, as long as it didn't interfere with the smooth running of the school as a whole.

Discretionary rulings, that was the key.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11654540&postcount=35

Our particular church takes the Last Supper literally.

Whenever you eat, whenever you drink, you're supposed to remember Christ.

And in Matthew, you're supposed to pray to God in a particular way (quietly, but not completely silent, alone in another room if possible, possibly with the Lord's Prayer, but you're encouraged to free form your prayer and not do it by rote).

Matthew 6.

From wikipedia:
The second part of the discourse, much like the first condemns people who pray only so that people might see them do so. At that time, the official position of Jewish religion was that when it came time to pray, one ought to seek an inconspicuous corner to do so, quietly mumbling the prayer when in private, hence the condemnation of ostentatious prayer was very much a standard Jewish line to take. Mid-way through Luke, there is a parallel condemnation of public prayer, although it specifically attacks a particular pharisee who had sought out the most prominent position to begin his prayer. Some theologians and religious groups do not interpret this as a total rejection of communal worship, since some form of community worship occurs elsewhere in the New Testament in a positive light, though these are not necessarily referring to communal prayer more than other forms of worship.

Like with alms, the discourse instructs that if one prays, then it must be done secretly in your inner chamber...having shut your door. Schweizer feels that this is a reference to the storage room, and while most of Jesus' audiences would have lived in homes with only one room, in Palestine it was common to have a separate storage area to protect foodstuffs, which was the only room with a door. Other scholars think it simply means prayer in one's heart. The wording is similar to Isaiah 26:20, and Schweizer feels that the original wording was adjusted to match.

So, according to my church's interpretation (which may not be what other Christian churches do, but ours does), my kids need a separate room and have to pray during lunch.

Which passage?

The one where Jesus says to go pray in your closet and don't make a spectacle of yourself.

The one where Jesus says to go pray in your closet and don't make a spectacle of yourself.

So, where's the room for my kids to pray? Eh? Nowhere.

And I'm fine with that - as long as no one else gets one.

All that is great but the school has no business giving any kind of support whatsoever to any religious group. Even if it is just allowing use of their classrooms for these religious groups. If they want to practice their religious beliefs, go to their house of worship, not on school grounds.

The school doesn't endorse any of the groups I mentioned. All of them were commissioned, paid for, and administrated by private citizens. Why do private citizens loose their freedom of expression rights on school grounds?

So, where's the room for my kids to pray? Eh? Nowhere.

And I'm fine with that - as long as no one else gets one.

Personally I'd support giving your kids a room to pray in. The first amendment doesn't just prohibit the establishment of religion by the state but also prohibits interference in the free exercise of religion.

Some schools have, for fear of bad publicity and lawsuits, gone beyond what's necessary to keep from violating the establishment clause.

The one where Jesus says to go pray in your closet and don't make a spectacle of yourself.

And does he also say that you must pray at particualr times during the day?

And does he also say that you must pray at particualr times during the day?

I don't think so, but then I don't have the gospels in front of me.

And does he also say that you must pray at particualr times during the day?

During the Last Supper, Jesus says to pray and remember him whenever you eat or drink.

The school doesn't endorse any of the groups I mentioned. All of them were commissioned, paid for, and administrated by private citizens. Why do private citizens loose their freedom of expression rights on school grounds?

Seperation of church and state. I guess it conflicts with freedom of speech in this case. But supposively no religious activities can take place on school grounds. It doesn't matter if the school actively supports it, by allowing the religious activities to take place they are giving a de facto endorcement.

Once again, I re-iterate my opposition to the French method of dealing with religion on school grounds. It's a very unenlightened policy (and one of many reasons I despise the French government, but that's a topic for another thread) and certainly doesn't make it any easier for students to express themselves and learn about themselves. Espescially in light of the fact that extreme religious restrictions can cause discomfort on the part of the students, and have student uncomfortable at school is a REALLY bad idea.

During the Last Supper, Jesus says to pray and remember him whenever you eat or drink.

what the actual verse?

Once again, I re-iterate my opposition to the French method of dealing with religion on school grounds. It's a very unenlightened policy (and one of many reasons I despise the French government, but that's a topic for another thread) and certainly doesn't make it any easier for students to express themselves and learn about themselves. Espescially in light of the fact that extreme religious restrictions can cause discomfort on the part of the students, and have student uncomfortable at school is a REALLY bad idea.

Isn't it illegal for french women to wear head-scarves in school? even if their christian of jewish or jedi, and just happen to like head-scarves...real Liberte

what the actual verse?

In the course of the Last Supper, according to the synoptics (but not John), Jesus divides up some bread, says grace, and hands the pieces to his disciples, saying this is my body. He then takes a cup of wine, says grace, and hands it around, saying this is my blood of the 'covenant', which is poured for many . Finally he tells the disciples do this in remembrance of me.

Our church takes this literally. We do not believe, as Catholics do, in transubstantiation, or that this should only be done at church.

It happens everytime we eat or drink.

And who is the state to interpret our religion?

Isn't it illegal for french women to wear head-scarves in school? even if their christian of jewish or jedi, and just happen to like head-scarves...real Liberte

Yep, that's exactly the case.

Seems like every single conflict the French Government comes across their answer is to stick their heads in the ground and ignore it. Ach, I despise Chirac.

Although Sarkozy has my interest piqued. He seems a bit heavy handed, but willing to confront problems. Someone like him could do the French government some serious good.

In the course of the Last Supper, according to the synoptics (but not John), Jesus divides up some bread, says grace, and hands the pieces to his disciples, saying this is my body. He then takes a cup of wine, says grace, and hands it around, saying this is my blood of the 'covenant', which is poured for many . Finally he tells the disciples do this in remembrance of me.

Our church takes this literally. We do not believe, as Catholics do, in transubstantiation, or that this should only be done at church.

It happens everytime we eat or drink.

And who is the state to interpret our religion?

sigh...what bible do you use? I'll find the verse myself.

The one where Jesus says to go pray in your closet and don't make a spectacle of yourself.
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

-Jesus,
Matthew 6:5-6

sigh...what bible do you use? I'll find the verse myself.

First Corinthians, Chapter 11, Verses 23-29.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

-Jesus,
Matthew 6:5-6

So give me that room.

So give me that room.

I'm sure you have an acceptable room at your house.

I'm sure you have an acceptable room at your house.

Have to pray at meals in my church.

Either we get a room, or no one does.

Evil ACLU lawyers and the atheist, secular-humanist court system have banded together once again to trample the rights of decent, god-fearing, Christian Americans. A school in Missouri has been working with the Gideons to distribute bibles to their fifth grade students. A coalition of terrible, unchristian parents and their traitorous, unamerican ACLU lawyers took the school to court to stop this wholesome practice. Of course the liberal judge ruled in their favor. What ever happened to freedom of religion?

Seriously though, it's good to see the ACLU and judges stand up for the constitution.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060907/ap_on_re_us/bibles_for_kids_lawsuit
When I was in High School, my English teacher wanted us to read several books of the Bible as part of our Eng Lit course. She intended us to perform critical analysis and explore the literary devices that we encountered, and hoped to spark a discussion of how Biblical allusions are used in much of our famous literature.

However, a parent group raised such a fuss that this was cut from our course. No, it wasn't a troop of evil secularists or Jews or ACLU lawyers...it was a group of CHRISTIAN parents who objected to any critical reading of the Bible.

I want the Bible to be "taught" in school, the same way I want Das Capital to be "taught." That is, I believe these are important writings which have had a significant impact on our history and culture, and as such should be included in a comprehensive education program. I want the philosophies to be presented and analyzed. I want the arguments and theories to be subject to debate and discussion. I want the writing to be evaluated as the literature it is. I want the historical context to be illuminated. I want students to be taught to examine works like these and think critically.

When I was in High School, my English teacher wanted us to read several books of the Bible as part of our Eng Lit course. She intended us to perform critical analysis and explore the literary devices that we encountered, and hoped to spark a discussion of how Biblical allusions are used in much of our famous literature.



We actually got to do that at my high school, it was a very interesting exercise.

So give me that room.
The passage does not say, "And when thou prayest, thou shalt demand that a comfy prayer closet be provided unto thee by the state. Or, barring that, thou shalt expect thy secular neighbors to provide thee with said closet. Thou shalt insist upon having a closet provided unto thee in all public spaces, at the taxpayer's expense, that thou mayest pray whenever the fancy strikes thee."

The passage does not say, "And when thou prayest, thou shalt demand that a comfy prayer closet be provided unto thee by the state. Or, barring that, thou shalt expect thy secular neighbors to provide thee with said closet. Thou shalt insist upon having a closet provided unto thee in all public spaces, at the taxpayer's expense, that thou mayest pray whenever the fancy strikes thee."

Sorry, it's a restriction of the free exercise of religion for the government to interpret Scripture.

Like I said - no religion of any kind in the school building. Ever. For any reason. Period.

Have to pray at meals in my church.

One of my father's collegues belongs to a religion where they are commanded to sprinkle some of their beverage on the ground before they eat each meal (I'm embarassed to admit that I don't remember the name of his faith). After the university caffeteria explained that this is not an accepted practice in the public dining halls (being both a safety and health hazard), and that the janitorial staff would prefer he not pour soda on the floor of his office, he respectfully chose to eat his meals at home. This way he could observe his religious practices without violating the rules in our shared public spaces.

I think that is the mature and respectful thing to do.


Either we get a room, or no one does.
I'm cool with nobody getting to waste taxpayer money on special prayer closets or other religious hoo-hah. They wouldn't use school money to install a pinball machine for me when I was in middle school, despite the fact that it would have gotten far more use than any prayer closet, and despite the fact that I had far more passion and devotion for pinball than most of my fellow students had for their religious faiths.

Sorry, it's a restriction of the free exercise of religion for the government to interpret Scripture.

Like I said - no religion of any kind in the school building. Ever. For any reason. Period.

So why haven't you done anything about it? A law suit perhaps, demanding equality of treatment for all religions by the school.

Sorry, it's a restriction of the free exercise of religion for the government to interpret Scripture.

As sad as it may be, I am not the government.

Yet. *shifty eyes*


Like I said - no religion of any kind in the school building. Ever. For any reason. Period.
Sorry champ, but as long as religious human beings exist you will have religion in public schools. Believe me, I'd love to live in a world without such noise, but we can't always get what we want.

So why haven't you done anything about it? A law suit perhaps, demanding equality of treatment for all religions by the school.

Like I said, I'm willing to say we make it up to God later. And, I'm more respectful of other people's lack of religious belief than you might know.

That said, I don't think that the government should be making allowances for it, because it's not the government's business. Any allowance is going to look like bias towards a religion. Any allowance.

So IMHO, no allowance for any religion in the building. And that goes for the Muslims, too.

As sad as it may be, I am not the government.

Yet. *shifty eyes*



Don't worry, we're still working on installing you as the "Queen of the Americas".

Jesus, America is fucked up..

Like I said, I'm willing to say we make it up to God later. And, I'm more respectful of other people's lack of religious belief than you might know.

That said, I don't think that the government should be making allowances for it, because it's not the government's business. Any allowance is going to look like bias towards a religion. Any allowance.

So IMHO, no allowance for any religion in the building. And that goes for the Muslims, too.

Why don't your kids just use the same room as the Muslim kids do? If your children need a teacher to supervise them, I am sure there is at least one Christian teacher on the staff who would volunteer.

Why don't your kids just use the same room as the Muslim kids do? If your children need a teacher to supervise them, I am sure there is at least one Christian teacher on the staff who would volunteer.

Not allowed by the school.

Not allowed by the school.

Then sue them. If everything is as you claim, you obviously have an airtight case.

Then sue them. If everything is as you claim, you obviously have an airtight case.

No, we don't.

First, it takes money to file a case. Which I'm not willing to spend.

The ACLU usually takes cases where people don't have the money to make Constitutional claims - but I've been told by their DC office that they don't believe that the policy is unconstitutional - even though one religion may get favorite treatment over another.

So, we just write nastygrams to the school district every year. Seeking to get more religion out of the schools.

So far, the only effect has been to eliminate all references to Christmas out of the school, and the elimination of any remotely religion music from every school chorus.

Seems like the school district is not willing to risk the Muslims getting angry, and perhaps doing something drastic. I've even heard that explanation from the school principal here.

No, we don't.

First, it takes money to file a case. Which I'm not willing to spend.

The ACLU usually takes cases where people don't have the money to make Constitutional claims - but I've been told by their DC office that they don't believe that the policy is unconstitutional - even though one religion may get favorite treatment over another.

So, we just write nastygrams to the school district every year. Seeking to get more religion out of the schools.

So far, the only effect has been to eliminate all references to Christmas out of the school, and the elimination of any remotely religion music from every school chorus.

Seems like the school district is not willing to risk the Muslims getting angry, and perhaps doing something drastic. I've even heard that explanation from the school principal here.

The bitter, bitter irony...

The bitter, bitter irony...

Actually, I have absolutely no problem with no religion in school, so it's not ironic.

All I'm saying is that if one religion gets special treatment, we all get special treatment.

Including Bottle, who wants a pinball machine in a separate room.

Or, we all get no special treatment. No religion, and no pinball machine.

Sorry to disappoint you. It is also an indication that there are thresholds you have to pass in this country (long before the courts) - the ACLU is a gatekeeper in this country for most constitutional cases. Don't have the support of the ACLU? You're probably fucked.

Actually, I have absolutely no problem with no religion in school, so it's not ironic.

All I'm saying is that if one religion gets special treatment, we all get special treatment.

Including Bottle, who wants a pinball machine in a separate room.

Or, we all get no special treatment. No religion, and no pinball machine.

Sorry to disappoint you. It is also an indication that there are thresholds you have to pass in this country (long before the courts) - the ACLU is a gatekeeper in this country for most constitutional cases. Don't have the support of the ACLU? You're probably fucked.
Maybe a Christian group like the ACLJ would help. Pat Robertson is a dick, but his legal organization might actually do some good in this situation.

http://www.aclj.org/

Maybe a Christian group like the ACLJ would help. Pat Robertson is a dick, but his legal organization might actually do some good in this situation.

http://www.aclj.org/

Oh, and I don't want to associate with Pat Robertson, either.

All I'm saying is that if one religion gets special treatment, we all get special treatment.

Including Bottle, who wants a pinball machine in a separate room.

You know, if more Christians were prepared to fight for my right to a pinball machine, I probably would hold them in far higher esteem.

At any rate, I totally agree with you. Schools don't even have the money they need to do the bare minimum in educating kids. Those concerns come FIRST. It's disgusting to be considering wasting money on the hobbies of private citizens when we're not even able to give each kid a damn pencil.

You know, if more Christians were prepared to fight for my right to a pinball machine, I probably would hold them in far higher esteem.

At any rate, I totally agree with you. Schools don't even have the money they need to do the bare minimum in educating kids. Those concerns come FIRST. It's disgusting to be considering wasting money on the hobbies of private citizens when we're not even able to give each kid a damn pencil.

Oh, you would love our schools. Top 3% in the nation, right?

Well.

We buy the standard pack of school supplies for our kids from the PTA. You know, all prepacked according to the school's list.

And don't worry, if you don't buy pencils or supplies for your kid, what the PTA and school won't tell you is that they only expect 2/3 of the kids to buy them, and then they will be used communally. But that's not told to anyone - you find that out on the first day that the teacher sends you home a note saying "you need to buy more school supplies, because your child has none". Two weeks into the school year. No markers, paper, scissors. Because they've been "redistributed" so that you can buy them twice.

Hell, if that's what they want - for me to buy another kid's supplies, just tell me in advance and I'll do it - not this ridiculous bullshit of secret redistribution.

Oh, you would love our schools. Top 3% in the nation, right?

Well.

We buy the standard pack of school supplies for our kids from the PTA. You know, all prepacked according to the school's list.

And don't worry, if you don't buy pencils or supplies for your kid, what the PTA and school won't tell you is that they only expect 2/3 of the kids to buy them, and then they will be used communally. But that's not told to anyone - you find that out on the first day that the teacher sends you home a note saying "you need to buy more school supplies, because your child has none". Two weeks into the school year. No markers, paper, scissors. Because they've been "redistributed" so that you can buy them twice.

Hell, if that's what they want - for me to buy another kid's supplies, just tell me in advance and I'll do it - not this ridiculous bullshit of secret redistribution.
*JAW DROP*

Wow. That is totally bonkers. I would be INCENSED if somebody decided to steal the supplies I purchased for my child's use. That is no different than if they took a "field trip" to my office and invited the children to help themselves to the contents of my desk.

What a great lesson to teach young people: it's okay to take what isn't yours, as long as you make sure they don't know you're going to do it beforehand! They can always buy themselves new stuff to replace what you stole, so everybody wins!

Oh, you would love our schools. Top 3% in the nation, right?

Well.

We buy the standard pack of school supplies for our kids from the PTA. You know, all prepacked according to the school's list.

And don't worry, if you don't buy pencils or supplies for your kid, what the PTA and school won't tell you is that they only expect 2/3 of the kids to buy them, and then they will be used communally. But that's not told to anyone - you find that out on the first day that the teacher sends you home a note saying "you need to buy more school supplies, because your child has none". Two weeks into the school year. No markers, paper, scissors. Because they've been "redistributed" so that you can buy them twice.

Hell, if that's what they want - for me to buy another kid's supplies, just tell me in advance and I'll do it - not this ridiculous bullshit of secret redistribution.

Why are your kids still at this school? They lie to you and you disagree with there views on religion in the school.

Why are your kids still at this school? They lie to you and you disagree with there views on religion in the school.

Public school. Top 3% in the nation, in terms of test scores and admittance to higher education.

Public school. Top 3% in the nation, in terms of test scores and admittance to higher education.

Then with all due respect to your views they must be doing someting right, perhaps you should stop bitching about the schools' policies and let them get on with it.

Then with all due respect to your views they must be doing someting right, perhaps you should stop bitching about the schools' policies and let them get on with it.
Well, it's also possible that the entire rest of the country is simply doing a whole lot more WRONG. :)

Well, it's also possible that the entire rest of the country is simply doing a whole lot more WRONG. :)

True, but I'm still going to go with the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' maxim.

One explanation that I received from the school principal was that any public display (even silent prayer) would intimidate non-Christians into thinking that they weren't doing "the right thing".

The ACLU agrees that even a "moment of silence" by a minority of the people in the room would be an illegal exercise of religion.

Again I call bullshit. The ACLU agrees that calling for a moment of silence over the PA system would be an illegal exercise of religion.

Our particular church does have the requirement to pray at meals. We were told by the school that anything that even looked like prayer (including silent prayer with your eyes closed) was forbidden. Intimidating to others, we were told.

And that is not going to hold up in court. It has many times been upheld that a student may of there own free will choose to bow their head and pray silently. You can not however pray outloud or try to get others to pray with you.

Our particular church takes the Last Supper literally.

Whenever you eat, whenever you drink, you're supposed to remember Christ.


I note you say that you're suposed to "remember Christ" which is very different from praying.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

-Jesus,
Matthew 6:5-6

Which means that they should not be praying out loud over their lunch in the lunch room . . .