NationStates Jolt Archive

Sitting here making notes for Government so I don't fail horribly, I come to the term nation-state and I don't understand their explanation of it.. No, I'm not asking for help..

But, I do want to see how many people here actually know what a nation-state is; seeing as the game is called NationStates..

So, do you know what the term means, or can't you be arsed to care? :p

*goes back to writing notes*

Definitions of Nation state on the Web:

* A form of state in which those who exercise power claim legitimacy for their rule partly or solely on the grounds that their power is exercised for the promotion of the distinctive interests, values and cultural heritage of a particular nation whose members ideally would constitute all, or most of, its subject population and all of whom would dwell within the borders.
www.information-entertainment.com/Politics/polterms.html

* The term nation-state, while often used interchangeably with the terms unitary state and independent state, refers properly to the parallel occurence of a state and a nation. This happens very unusually in reality, though many politicans and activists have attempted to claim that their state is a nation-state, in order to try and reduce tension between differing ethnic groups.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_State

A nation is a group of people denoted for sharing a common ethnicity, culture, language, religion, etc.

A state is a group of people denoted for sharing, or falling under the jurisdiction of, a common political authority with defined geographical borders, and usually with the recognition of sovereignty by other states.

A nation-state occurs where both the nation and the state corespond to the same group of people. Japan is typically pointed out as a classic example (even though not a perfect example). The United States is typically pointed out as the polar opposite of a nation-state, being a state composed of many nations, the result of a very strong immigrant background and history.

the answer is "generally a bad idea"

Nation-states developed in the recent centuries primarily in Europe (although there are some regional trend buckers, like Japan), where the traditional local nationality developed a formalized government. This is not to be confused with tribalism, where there might be a nationality, but there is no solidified state.

the answer is "generally a bad idea"

Explain further. Why is this necessarily so?

Nation-States are a lot like Grilled Cheese Sandwiches, except for two important differences:
(1) Nation-States aren't edible
(2) Grilled Cheese Sandwiches aren't governments that consist of a singular ethnic group that share the same religion, traditions and language.

A nation is a group of people who are unified enough to come up with their own government that does not need another government agency above it. This is why the Nation of Islam can reasonably have the name, even though they're a religion. They lack the means by which to become independent of the Federal and State governments, but they are unified enough to manage their own affairs. The Republic of Texas would be the same.

A nationstate is simply the same thing, except the group owns territory that is theirs and noone else's. This is why Palestine is a nation, but not a nationstate. The Republic of Texas would be a nationstate if they could just get the Federal Government to allow the secession of so much as an acre of Texas land.

Explain further. Why is this necessarily so?

well, in addition to the problems of the state in general, nation-states have at least one additional downside. namely, they have a nasty tendency to take the human impules towards forming in-groups and out-groups, amplify them, and then gives them a solid bit of chauvinism and big armies with which to go fulfill the 'national destiny'.

A Nation-state is something I have constructed so that people will not understand who truly rules over them.

Nation-States are a lot like Grilled Cheese Sandwiches, except for two important differences:
(1) Nation-States aren't edible
(2) Grilled Cheese Sandwiches aren't governments that consist of a singular ethnic group that share the same religion, traditions and language.

I wish you had taught my government class. I feel like it would've been much more interesting :D

But now i really want a sandwich.....:p

a sovereign political and governmental entity which may lay legitimate claim to the monopoloy of (legitimate) force within its purported boundaries?

not sure about sovereign these days though. thats what i remember from my politics degree.



however i always thought in the modern world this has been surpassed by the economy-state, with the actual power of the state moving more from legitimate force to that of weilding the power of its economy - a far more effective tool in the modern age than force (though of course this isn't to say the key aspects of the nation-state are lost, rather built upon and the government's focus changed). this is especially true given the nation-state's requirement for sovereignity and the modern move towards more political and economic interdependance in trade, debt, and a frowning on unilateral action by a nationstate in the arena of world politics.

well, in addition to the problems of the state in general, nation-states have at least one additional downside. namely, they have a nasty tendency to take the human impules towards forming in-groups and out-groups, amplify them, and then gives them a solid bit of chauvinism and big armies with which to go fulfill the 'national destiny'.

Is there a downside to this?

well, in addition to the problems of the state in general, nation-states have at least one additional downside. namely, they have a nasty tendency to take the human impules towards forming in-groups and out-groups, amplify them, and then gives them a solid bit of chauvinism and big armies with which to go fulfill the 'national destiny'.

Sounds like a perfect description of the anti-nation-state (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) (as described in my first post to this thread), actually.

So it adds one more excuse for psychotic statism. The psychosis itself, however, is hardly unique to the nation-state.

Having read this thread, I feel I can say with confidence that I now know what a Nation-state is. :cool:

Nation-States are a lot like Grilled Cheese Sandwiches, except for two important differences:
(1) Nation-States aren't edible
(2) Grilled Cheese Sandwiches aren't governments that consist of a singular ethnic group that share the same religion, traditions and language.

So they really ARE cheesy in their deepest realms?

Also, there is a good amount of fluff on the outside... I guess the analogy is good. :D :p ;) :) :cool:

Sounds like a perfect description of the anti-nation-state (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) (as described in my first post to this thread), actually.

So it adds one more excuse for psychotic statism. The psychosis itself, however, is hardly unique to the nation-state.

i don't know that the u.s. isn't actually a nation-state. it certainly isn't comprised of a 'natural' nation exactly, but it did invent a nation for itself and promotes it ceaselessly. and the people largely buy it. in fact, the suggestion that we ought to accomodate other nations that exist within the boundaries of the state (put signs up in their languages, etc) is treated by many as some grave insult and a threat to the 'american' nation, etc.

and the nationalistic chauvinism need not take the form of subjugating peoples and forcing them into your state. there are also pure land grabs with the displacement of the prior inhabitants on the grounds that "our people always held this land" or "it is our destiny to do so" or "we must unite our nation, and 12% of the people over there are actually part of it". or going forth to bring civilization and light to the ignorant savages. or merely having to beat the ruskies in the number of genocidal weapons we have on hand. or a number of other possible outlets.

the particular psychosis of nationalistic chauvinism forms a distinct type of of statist insanity, and one that has lead to some of the bloodiest massacres in human history. it also appears to me to be inherent in the concept of nation-states in a way that, for example, empire building was not for city-states.

Again with the hat?! :eek:

But this time I'm actually grateful for the poll option. Not only because I didn't know what a nation state was (I'll shamelessly blame it on the language barrier *nod*) but also because the pancake hat you drew me is starting to get moldy. :(

Make me a new one! :mad:

Not knowing what a nation-state is for my major is like not knowing how to add for math majors. So yes, I know what it is.

Not knowing what a nation-state is for my major is like not knowing how to add for math majors. So yes, I know what it is.


Poli Sci: Why try? ;)

Oh, a nation-state. City-states are more interesting.

Oh, a nation-state. City-states are more interesting.

Big fan of Singapore, eh? ;)

Poli Sci: Why try? ;)
good question:p

Big fan of Singapore, eh? ;)

I was thinking of the Greeks, but sure. Interesting. :)

good question:p

I knock it, but that's what I have my degree in. ;)

The United States is typically pointed out as the polar opposite of a nation-state, being a state composed of many nations, the result of a very strong immigrant background and history.

E Pluribus Unum baby :cool:

I knock it, but that's what I have my degree in. ;)

don't we all;)

E Pluribus Unum baby :cool:

A motto I've always hated. The trumped up, artificial nationalism of the United States has always seemed to be quite hollow and devoid of any real meaning to me. I've yet to hear a compelling reason why I should feel a closer kinship with Californians, who are over 2,000 miles away from my state than with Canadians who are right next to us.

Then again, I question the necessity of even having a Federal government at this point in time. Bigger certainly doesn't equate to better these days, and our Federal government seems to get us into trouble far more often than it gets us out of it.

Sitting here making notes for Government so I don't fail horribly, I come to the term nation-state and I don't understand their explanation of it.. No, I'm not asking for help..

But, I do want to see how many people here actually know what a nation-state is; seeing as the game is called NationStates..

So, do you know what the term means, or can't you be arsed to care? :p

*goes back to writing notes*
Yes i do know.

Big fan of Singapore, eh? ;)
I am, they are so hard arse wit their laws.
*Swoons*