NationStates Jolt Archive

some of you know that I am a muslim. I can speak Arabic and write somewhat well. I enjoy a good political discussion as many of you are on NS for that very reason. Anyway a muslim group that I sometimes attend functions has a small Palestinian group within it. I have discussions with one particular Palestian male all the time. We discuss Israel and Palestian conflict on a regular basis. I come from the viewpoint that Israel is basically the homeland of jews. He argues that it belongs to the Palestinians first. Which like a good historical investigator I know that this is incorrect in many ways. This particular person as many people I talk with of this subject do not know what they are talking about. Muslim and non-Muslim alike have no idea of the what's and why's of the Israel-Arab conflicts. I even have been called a jew sympathizer from some of my Muslim peers. I always say study history and you will figure out the truth. Anway I have listed a web site that I recently have come by in my look at the historical reasons for this conflict. I think this particular website has a good take with alot of historical context within it to gain my attention. I know out of all the blowhards on NS there are a few smart NS'rs out there. So am asking what you think of the historical depictions of these particular sites.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/

I don't see how Islam justifies itself by the failure of judaism, like all revealed religions, islam justifies itself through god......

"this is how god wanted his creations to live" that sort of thing

I wonder what God calls the land where so many people have died fighting about religion?: The land where they read My Books and claim to love Me but only cause me anguish. Do you think?

I don't see how Islam justifies itself by the failure of judaism, like all revealed religions, islam justifies itself through god......

"this is how god wanted his creations to live" that sort of thing

Well I would assume that God wants all his creatures to live in peace. However alot of Muslims do follow the way of destroying Israel as justified in Islam. to me it is a perverted form of interpeting Islam. It is rampant though through Arabic centered Muslims. Maybe it is my American side speaking but I believe that everyone should be able to live in peace. I think a basis for this style of Islam is born of oppression of different political ideology. I think that in itself is a major factor.

I wonder what God calls the land where so many people have died fighting about religion?: The land where they read My Books and claim to love Me but only cause me anguish. Do you think?

I think GOD would be ashamed if you ask me. If there is an alter heaven or paradise such as hell. Then it is full of these people that murder in the name of there respective religions.

While I would say that the people with the oldest claim to Palestine and the Holy Land are the myriad other peoples that inhabited it before the Exodus, a statement from the first website about those peoples: "They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs." seems to invalidate some of the claims of the Arabs and Palestinians make, like them being related to those original inhabitants. If that statement is true, then the Palestinians have no more right to the land than Jews. In the other website linked to, I read a couple articles, but it seems that that site is more than a little biased to the side of the Israelis, or rather, against the Palestinians. For example: (if you want, just skip by, it's a long couple of paragraphs)

------------------------------------------------
" Although a politically based mythology has grown up around and smothered, the documented past of the land known as "Palestine," there is recognition among preeminent scholars of what one of them has called "the more chauvinist Arab version of the region's history as having begun with the Arabs and Islam."
The claim that Arab-Muslim "Palestinians" were "emotionally tied" to "their own plot of land in Palestine" -- based upon a "consistent presence" on "Arab" land for "thousands of years"2 -- is an important part of that recent mythology.
It was contrived of late in a thus far successful Orwellian propaganda effort-an appeal to the emotions that would "counter Zionism" and that "serves" tactical purposes as a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel," as the late PLO official Muhsin stated candidly in an interview, quoted at the beginning of this chapter.
In order to understand how that tool, aided by a general near-ignorance of the "unrelenting past," has distorted the perception of the present, a look at the "yesterday" of "Palestine" is necessary."
---------------------------------------------------
(the above has very little to do with my conclusions below)

Israel seems to have more of a claim to the Holy land, having controlled it well before the Arabs, and though they did, of course, lose that control several times to many different oppressors, it is still their homeland for all intents and purposes.

Though, one could say that of most Palestinians also. However, because of the fact that the Israelis, 'were there before the Palestinians' as well as the fact that the original inhabitants of Palestine do not exist as a coherant group anymore, Israel would seem to have more of a right to the land, though that does not totally invalidate the Palestinians right to it also.

I think GOD would be ashamed if you ask me. If there is an alter heaven or paradise such as hell. Then it is full of these people that murder in the name of there respective religions.

yes, I would have to agree. I don't believe in a physical hell--rather hell is to spiritually absent from God. I see that you are Muslim. I am Baha'i.

Well I would assume that God wants all his creatures to live in peace. However alot of Muslims do follow the way of destroying Israel as justified in Islam. to me it is a perverted form of interpeting Islam. It is rampant though through Arabic centered Muslims. Maybe it is my American side speaking but I believe that everyone should be able to live in peace. I think a basis for this style of Islam is born of oppression of different political ideology. I think that in itself is a major factor.

Correct sir! *gives cookie*

They do not call on any deity other than the one God. They do not kill a person, the taking of whose blood God has forbidden, except for just cause. They do not commit adultery. Those who commit these acts must pay. Their torment on the Judgment Day will be doubled, and they will be consigned to eternal abasement--Q'uran 25:68

Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.--Q'uran 4:90

A question though: does strong direct ancestry with the original inhabitants count or merely a shared religion?

The claim that I should get to live here because "my direct ancestors lived here" is defensible, the claim "people of my religion lived here" is not, and "god said my religion gets to live here" is even less so.

At any rate, the more the conflict over israel can be shifted away from an existential one the better, Israel's existance, originally justified or not, is fait accompli and inviolable, same as any other country.

Israel's actions are matters of practical debate and action: settlement of occupied territory is criminal, indiscriminate attacks on civilians is a war crime, both provoke and justify israel's opponents. Punishing wrongdoing is a duty.

Israel seems to have more of a claim to the Holy land, having controlled it well before the Arabs, and though they did, of course, lose that control several times to many different oppressors, it is still their homeland for all intents and purposes.


I often wonder what would happen if some giant with a huge eraser would come and erase all of the country lines on all of the maps of the world and said: "There no more lines, no more boundries and no more reason to fight. You are all one people with one country--earth. Earth is your homeland."

I often wonder what would happen if some giant with a huge eraser would come and erase all of the country lines on all of the maps of the world and said: "There no more lines, no more boundries and no more reason to fight. You are all one people with one country--earth. Earth is your homeland."

I often wonder what would of happened if the israelites had chosen to free jesus- instead of that rebellion leader guy(was his name barenziah?)

I often wonder what would of happened if the israelites had chosen to free jesus- instead of that rebellion leader guy(was his name barenziah?)

Barabas



I often wonder what would happen if some giant with a huge eraser would come and erase all of the country lines on all of the maps of the world and said: "There no more lines, no more boundries and no more reason to fight. You are all one people with one country--earth. Earth is your homeland."

Well, at first things would go great, everyone would be happy, and then oh-so-slowly things would begin to return to the way they were. Rudimentary city-states would be formed again, and begin to conquer their surroundings. The original happiness that an actually peaceful anarchy brought about would be forgotten, and eventually fade away, 'til a new Hammurabi is born, then a new Alexander, a Caesar, and so on until we are back to a time similar, if not identical to, today.

By the way, what was with that odd way you quoted me in the post you deleted?

I often wonder what would of happened if the israelites had chosen to free jesus- instead of that rebellion leader guy(was his name barenziah?)

It seems to me they had the same problem that both parties have today: They think the land is sacred and not human, God created, life.

Barabas

thanks much, I knew it started with a "B".

I think GOD would be ashamed if you ask me. If there is an alter heaven or paradise such as hell. Then it is full of these people that murder in the name of there respective religions.

If the God of Islmam/judaism/christianity does exist then he would be thoughraly ashamed.If he exists I wouldnt be surprised if 'satan' put the idea of 'the holy land' into the minds and scriptures of these religions to cause chaos.God would be ashamed.If these people really wanted to follow God then they should be ashamed, and will certainlyn go to their version of hell.This pint however is potentially void as this'god' may not even exists.
When it comes to the israel palestinan conflict, there is wrong on both sides.How I see it is, Israel belonged to the jews, then the arabs and then the jews again after world war two.Both sides have valid claims.Israel have treated the palestinians like shite(building on the west bank, treating all palestinians as terrorists,building that huge wall seperation people from their land and work places)and the palestinians have been in the wrong too(suicide bombings, threatening to push the state of Israel into the sea,antisemitism ect)Both sides are in the wrong, and both have claim to the land(half each with jerusalem as a neutral zone as the un origionally proposed).I mean, what was the world expecting to happen when they imposed an artificial state of Israel over palestine-people lived there and called it their homeland(I mean if you are american and an artificial nation is imposed on america to house the disparate aborigionals and native americans from around the world, americans would be pritty mad, even if the land origionaly belonged to the native americans)Both sides need to be treated as equals, and just because the world dislikes muslims at the moment(as they have hated jews for most of the last millenia)dosent mean they sould side with Israel, after all Israel have a powerful military,and dont need help with that!There shoyuld be no sides,but that is impossible for most people to do as it is practically impossible not to take a side(mind you if you show any sympathy for palestine you get called a suicide bombing anti semite and if you show sympathy for israel you get called a muslim hating american poodle,so you cant really win)

I often wonder what would of happened if the israelites had chosen to free jesus- instead of that rebellion leader guy(was his name barenziah?)

barabas

How far do we want to go back to see who deserves the land?

In the America's the natives have more of a claim to the land then the Jews had to Palistine based on 2000 year old claims.

So who caused the problem? The easy answer is Europe. Europeans (not just Germany) had a long term hate of the Jews. They didn't like Hitler's solution but didn't want to keep the Jews either. So they exported the problem to what they viewed as an "empty" land. Unfortunatly, there were people in the empty land.

So the problem is where do we go from here? It's going to be impossible to correct the sins of our grandfathers. So we need to giv compensation for those mistakes. Shimon Peres has suggested building the economy first of Gaza and then of the West Bank. For half of the money the west was spending pre-9/11 on war in the area. They could have built roads, schools, electrical, sewer, desalinization plant, port, and other economy builders. In a few years Gaza could look like Hong Kong.

When Israel pulled out of Gaza they did just the opposite. They destroyed houses, green houses, and other ways for the people to gain financially. Then they wondered why the people continued to attack. DUH!

Then they destroyed Lebanon. Good way to get people to want peace. :rolleyes: And the "christian" west supported the destruction.....hoping to get peace......

War has been tried over and over and over. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Maybe the West should try LOVE instead of hate to end hate. But would that be "christian"?

Genesis 15
God's Covenant With Abram
1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:
"Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield, [a]
your very great reward. [b] "

2 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit [c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."

4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

7 He also said to him, "I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it."

8 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?"

9 So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon."

10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Hagar and Ishmael
1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her."
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me."

6 "Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.

9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers."

13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [c] the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [d] ; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.
The Covenant of Circumcision
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram [b] ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day. 27 And every male in Abraham's household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Genesis 15
God's Covenant...(Circumcision).... with him.

And your point?

jews left the land, jews lose the land.
what does this mean we should all back to india, demanding thier land?

I often wonder what would of happened if the israelites had chosen to free jesus- instead of that rebellion leader guy(was his name barenziah?)

He would have been killed by the Jewish leaders of the day.
Even if he didnt directly speak out against them directly, he implied that they were as corrupt as hell.

He was a rabble rouser.

A radical street preacher than was gaining a cult-like and rather large following.

They likely had no intention of sharing any power.

some of you know that I am a muslim. I can speak Arabic and write somewhat well. I enjoy a good political discussion as many of you are on NS for that very reason. Anyway a muslim group that I sometimes attend functions has a small Palestinian group within it. I have discussions with one particular Palestian male all the time. We discuss Israel and Palestian conflict on a regular basis. I come from the viewpoint that Israel is basically the homeland of jews. He argues that it belongs to the Palestinians first. Which like a good historical investigator I know that this is incorrect in many ways. This particular person as many people I talk with of this subject do not know what they are talking about. Muslim and non-Muslim alike have no idea of the what's and why's of the Israel-Arab conflicts. I even have been called a jew sympathizer from some of my Muslim peers. I always say study history and you will figure out the truth. Anway I have listed a web site that I recently have come by in my look at the historical reasons for this conflict. I think this particular website has a good take with alot of historical context within it to gain my attention. I know out of all the blowhards on NS there are a few smart NS'rs out there. So am asking what you think of the historical depictions of these particular sites.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/

First of all, you make the common mistake of thinking in groups, while it is individuals that count. It does not really matter who was first or last, they are both there and there to stay. If you have lived in a place for all of your life and your families have lived there does it matter which religion/race was there first. Moreover, it is likely that both groups share the same ancestry anyway.

Currently the Arabs, especially those labeled refugees, are not represented by a sovereign state

Note that a site with the name Eretz Israel, will probably strive for a Great Israel, and is therefore a less reliable source, I did not discover huge omissions in the other site though, nor did I check thoroughly.

[...] So am asking what you think of the historical depictions of these particular sites.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/

I have studied Middle Eastern politics for a few years now. And upon closer inspection of the sites I must say the first is actually quite good and extensive. It tries to incorporate more views and does not seem to give a one-sided version of events. I might advise this site.

The second is not a good site, unless you would want to study this settler ideology. It is interesting though and it relies heavily on Bernard Lewis, who has written a lot and is very popular, but is controversial among hiss fellow scholars to say the least. I would not advise anyone to use this site to form a better understanding of the conflict.

And all these wasted land of Siberia...
Waiting for a new population to grow the Holy Land of the Mujiks.

And all these wasted land of the Sahara...

And the bloddy Moon?
Wait a minute could we not send all these belligerants to the moon, it's lotta stones to convert upthere...

I come from the viewpoint that Israel is basically the homeland of jews. and "America" is the Homeland of whom?

I am against any group of people saying "that is my homeland".. and comiting genocide in that name of "homeland".

The problem here isnt one of Muslims versus Jews. The Mizrahi lived in peace amongst the arabs. The problem is that Israel is the last gasp of European colonialism. Its not that non-muslims live in the area, its that white, foreign imperialists came and took over the ethnic majority. Its false to make this about religion. It's about something fundamentally more evil. Zionism is a racist ugly philosophy akin to Nazism. Judaism is not. The struggle is between a group which believes that based on race and nothing more they deserve to rule a land, and the recent inhabitants of that land. Coincedentally, if they believed that god gave central Europe to blondes, more people would be decrying them right now.

Supporting Zionism and condemning other forms of racism is hypocritical at best.

That being said, i dont condone marketplace bombings or the killing of civilians either.

I thought they just hated each other "Because...uh...I don't remember."

well there is that.