NationStates Jolt Archive

You all need to get right with God! :)

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Yipes.

They sound a bit... agressive imo.

Oh dear... This isn't good.

They sound a bit... agressive imo.

They need to be aggressive! We are in a war with Satan to save the souls of the world from all the fags and dykes and atheists and freaks and communists and everyone else who is bot a decent, God-fearing Christian American! :mad:

why is this bad? I don't understand

I've been to two Christian camps, neither of them that bad. The first I was asked to leave as a result of having some problems with their ladies first policy. The second I went to for a short period over a weekend, and enjoyed. Oddly enough, the first one had normal camp activity stuff, whereas with the second one we were working to get it ready for the real campers.

Does that seem odd?

I always thought sending kids off to summer camp was bad enough (luckily, I avoided such a fate) but this really take the cake. Nothing like dropping your kids off in Little Tehran for a few weeks...

Actually, I think both fundie Muslims and fundie Christians would be pissed at calling the camps that so it's even better. The more fundies I piss off, the happier I am.

Standard brainwash camp.

*shrug*

They need to be aggressive! We are in a war with Satan to save the souls of the world from all the fags and dykes and atheists and freaks and communists and everyone else who is bot a decent, God-fearing Christian American! :mad:

I'm not very familar with your normal posts... are you usually like this? I thought I'd notice... Hopefully you're being sarcastic.

You're incredibly scary, if serious, and If there are going to be training grounds for people like this, I'm very scared.

They need to be aggressive! We are in a war with Satan to save the souls of the world from all the fags and dykes and atheists and freaks and communists and everyone else who is bot a decent, God-fearing Christian American! :mad:
I just generally dislike any association which claims to teach kids to be any kind of soldiers in any army.

...everyone else who is bot a decent, God-fearing...

Bot? Fighting robots too? That'll be awesome.

why is this bad? I don't understand

Well, the main problem would be the name of the camp. "Kids on fire?" What do they do, burn the evil out of them?

Second, I always get a bit irrationally nervous hearing stuff like "Soldiers of God," or "God's Army". Doesn't apply to the Salvation Army or the Swiss Guard though. Odd.

Combine that with the fact that it's small children, and you get the general impression, hopefully mistaken, of them indoctrinating small children to be fanatically loyal to the church.

why is this bad? I don't understand

It is teaching kids to be agressive and intolerant. We don't need more people like that in the world.

Bot? Fighting robots too? That'll be awesome.

Christian Mecha Super Force GO!

Well, the main problem would be the name of the camp. "Kids on fire?" What do they do, burn the evil out of them?

Second, I always get a bit irrationally nervous hearing stuff like "Soldiers of God," or "God's Army". Doesn't apply to the Salvation Army or the Swiss Guard though. Odd.

Combine that with the fact that it's small children, and you get the general impression, hopefully mistaken, of them indoctrinating small children to be fanatically loyal to the church.

they hear the same stuff at church. I don't see a problem, although my kids go to church camp so maybe I am biased.

The whole "on fire", "God's army", and "Soldiers of God" it's all church talk, nobody is doing anything violent.

It is teaching kids to be agressive and intolerant. We don't need more people like that in the world.

no it isn't.

show me where it's teaching them to be aggressive and intolerant.

they hear the same stuff at church. I don't see a problem, although my kids go to church camp so maybe I am biased.

I imagine there's a world of difference between church camp and this stuff; these things seem more like political indoctrination camps than any real religious camp.

They should be volunteering or doing community service like regular church camps, not learning how to "take back America for Christ"...

no it isn't.

show me where it's teaching them to be aggressive and intolerant.

Having them claim to be soldiers of God, and take back America for Christ isn't aggressive and intolerant?

How about having them claim to be soldiers of Allah, and take America for Muhammed?

It is very scary. I'm not saying Christian teaching is bad, I'm saying this is.

no it isn't.

show me where it's teaching them to be aggressive and intolerant.

"Taking America back for god" doesn't really sound like they were told to be tolerant towards, say, homosexuals, people with "immoral" lifestyles in general.. and everybody else who doesn't conform to Christian ideals, now, does it?

no it isn't.

show me where it's teaching them to be aggressive and intolerant.

'Take back America for Christ'. Where does that leave the nonchristians?

There's also a bit in the synopsis about prophetic gifts, which worries me slightly. Are they going to try to teach the kids to walk on water?

Granted, this is a fictional movie, not a documentary, right?

Darn. There I was hoping for something like "Saved!" :(

"Kids on Fire"

Did anyone else imagine kids running around being on fire while the camps leaders were just praying and saying "Praise Jesus!"

I imagine there's a world of difference between church camp and this stuff; these things seem more like political indoctrination camps than any real religious camp.

They should be volunteering or doing community service like regular church camps, not learning how to "take back America for Christ"...

It's a little more extreme than what my kids go to, but it's not more extreme than what I went to as a child. We were never told to do anything violent, to hate, to try to change the way this country works, we were urged to "live worthy of the call" and to evangelize though.

I imagine there's a world of difference between church camp and this stuff; these things seem more like political indoctrination camps than any real religious camp.

They should be volunteering or doing community service like regular church camps, not learning how to "take back America for Christ"...

Exactly. I mean I thought America was susspose to be free of religious percacustion (sp)

'Take back America for Christ'. Where does that leave the nonchristians?

Deported, persecuted, sterilized and/or executed, presumably.

'Take back America for Christ'. Where does that leave the nonchristians?
they don't mean by force (or they don't around here when they say it) they are talking about home missions, evangelizing, not forceful conversion.

There's also a bit in the synopsis about prophetic gifts, which worries me slightly. Are they going to try to teach the kids to walk on water?
I assumed they were talking about the gifts of the spirit, none of which are physical, not like walking on water.

Granted, this is a fictional movie, not a documentary, right?
I hear it's a documentary.

why is this bad? I don't understand

These children are being indocrinated with religious zealotry with the intent to come to power in politics. Does that not strike you as very similar to terrorist training camps? The only difference is that these fundies want to mould the USA to a theocracy through legal methods.

It's a little more extreme than what my kids go to, but it's not more extreme than what I went to as a child. We were never told to do anything violent, to hate, to try to change the way this country works, we were urged to "live worthy of the call" and to evangelize though.

Well, if they're being trained to 'become an active part of America's political future' and 'take back America for Christ' I'm going to say they'll try and change the way the country works.

It's a little more extreme than what my kids go to, but it's not more extreme than what I went to as a child. We were never told to do anything violent, to hate, to try to change the way this country works, we were urged to "live worthy of the call" and to evangelize though.

This is teaching kids to change the way the country works. What else does "take back America for Christ" mean? This is not a standard church camp.

Exactly. I mean I thought America was susspose to be free of religious percacustion (sp)
evangelizing isn't persacution.
Deported, persecuted, sterilized and/or executed, presumably.
really? where did they say that?

These children are being indocrinated with religious zealotry with the intent to come to power in politics. Does that not strike you as very similar to terrorist training camps? The only difference is that these fundies want to mould the USA to a theocracy through legal methods.
I must have missed that part.
Well, if they're being trained to 'become an active part of America's political future' and 'take back America for Christ' I'm going to say they'll try and change the way the country works.
again I must have missed it.
This is teaching kids to change the way the country works. What else does "take back America for Christ" mean? This is not a standard church camp.
I haven't been to that camp, but I didn't see all this "let's make America a theocracy" stuff........maybe you guys can find it for me?

It's a little more extreme than what my kids go to, but it's not more extreme than what I went to as a child. We were never told to do anything violent, to hate, to try to change the way this country works, we were urged to "live worthy of the call" and to evangelize though.

I don't know, this kind of emphasis on evangelism seems disturbing. I've always felt that religion should be something taught by parents to their children, and that the parents should encourage critical thought to complement their beliefs...these seem more like indoctrination than a real exploration of religious beliefs.

Maybe it's my Catholic background or my philosophical beliefs that causes me to fear these kinds of camps...but I still don't trust them. Ordinary camps sponsored by local churches don't bother me at all, however.

really? where did they say that?

It didn't say it. But then ya know, the Bolsheviks never said "YES! When we're in power, we'll introduce MASS MURDER OF MILLIONS!" before the fact either.

they don't mean by force (or they don't around here when they say it) they are talking about home missions, evangelizing, not forceful conversion.

They also mean turning the USA into a Christian Nation by infiltrating its government and gradually eroding away religious freedom and adding a theocratic touch to all things American.

It's a little more extreme than what my kids go to, but it's not more extreme than what I went to as a child. We were never told to do anything violent, to hate, to try to change the way this country works, we were urged to "live worthy of the call" and to evangelize though.

Query: do you believe that your children are mature enough to decide if they want to live worthy of the call ? Believing in God should after all be a concious and honest choice, not something you do because you were told.

I don't know, this kind of emphasis on evangelism seems disturbing. I've always felt that religion should be something taught by parents to their children, and that the parents should encourage critical thought to complement their beliefs...these seem more like indoctrination than a real exploration of religious beliefs.

Maybe it's my Catholic background or my philosophical beliefs that causes me to fear these kinds of camps...but I still don't trust them. Ordinary camps sponsored by local churches don't bother me at all, however.

Seconded. I would like to add that while it's ok to preach what you believe, you shouldn't force it onto people, and you should let the people come to you after doing critical thinking and checking out all the facts. I hate scare tatics.

evangelizing isn't persacution.

No, though when it is aimed at the mentally immature without an objective context it is brainwashing.

I must have missed that part.

again I must have missed it.

I haven't been to that camp, but I didn't see all this "let's make America a theocracy" stuff........maybe you guys can find it for me?

It is on the front page. :confused: It is the main point of the camp, and they aren't hiding it. We, at least I, am not reading anything extra into it. They are blatantly saying they want this country to only be a Christian nation and that others should be changed.

I don't see why you're defending this as if you're part of it. This is not a standard, benign, church camp.

I think the one line from the camp counselor says all you need to know about this camp.
There are two kinds of people in the world. THose who love the Lord and those who don't.

I don't know, this kind of emphasis on evangelism seems disturbing. I've always felt that religion should be something taught by parents to their children, and that the parents should encourage critical thought to complement their beliefs...these seem more like indoctrination than a real exploration of religious beliefs.

Maybe it's my Catholic background or my philosophical beliefs that causes me to fear these kinds of camps...but I still don't trust them. Ordinary camps sponsored by local churches don't bother me at all, however.

Usually your church goes with you, do you not think that children should go to church? that's other people teaching them things. It's a Bible camp, they talk over and over again about the basic doctrine, you are supposed to bring your "unchurched friends" so that they can be exposed to church.

evangelizing isn't persacution.

I think the problem I would have is the age of these kids; they're not really old enough to critically examine their beliefs or to consider the issue fully, and that does make them more vulnerable to things that might not be appropriate or mainstream. If I were a parent, I would prefer that kind of religious education be at least somewhat under my control rather than at a camp where these kids could be exposed to mainstream as well as extremist ideologies.

Now, if they were young adults in college/high school I wouldn't have a problem with these camps because the kids are capable of thinking critically and are not going to be taken advantage of, and so they would be perfectly fine in such an environment.

Again I must have missed it.

Sure. Last line on the home page. Check out the underlined bits in the link.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4672/jesuscampty8.png (http://imageshack.us)

"Jesus Camp" revolves around a pentecostal minister who hosts a summer camp for children in North Dakota, and the sectarian Christian conservative families who send their children to this camp. Directors Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady wisely chose to avoid the polemical tone of most politically-motivated films, and instead opt to present a mostly unfiltered glimpse of this odd subculture. But through carefully selected images and the use of talk radio commentary as a framing device, they construct a subtle, yet damning narrative about a religious movement that isolates its children from mainstream culture, indoctrinates them into right-wing causes, and uses them as political props.

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government". Children learn that "science doesn't prove anything," and learn to consider themselves part of an Army of God. They are compelled to pledge that they will fight to end abortion. They are even pushed into publicly confessing their impure thoughts, and many of them cry and wail charismatically.

The camp director explains that she admires the way Islamic cultures raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith. When we ultimately see several of the campers being placed by their parents on the steps of the Capitol with tape over their mouths, protesting abortion, the real purpose of this camp is driven home.

But the most touching scenes are the ones where the children are alone, and we see the ways that this indoctrination creeps into the most innocent elements of childhood. 11 year old Tori loves dancing to Christian rock, but frets that it's not always easy to dance for God instead of "dancing for the flesh." On an outing to the bowling alley, 9 year old Rachael feels compelled to walk up to strangers and awkwardly evangelize to them, without being prompted. A roomful of boys telling ghost stories after dark are interrupted by an adult who warns them about stories that don't glorify God.

No doubt some viewers will accuse the filmmakers of the dreaded liberal bias. But this is not a work of fiction, nor is it slanted reporting. These are real people and real events, captured on film. If the evangelical movement comes off badly in this film, the people on screen have no one but themselves to blame.

Regardless of what anyone attempting to defend this thinks, this place is the fundamentalist Christian equivilent of an Islamic terrorist training camp.

evangelizing isn't persacution. No, but do realize that some people will not react with understanding when someone comes up to them and tells them they're wrong because they didn't like a certain book as much as they did. And the evidence they provide for this is that specific book.

Query: do you believe that your children are mature enough to decide if they want to live worthy of the call ? Believing in God should after all be a concious and honest choice, not something you do because you were told.
The church camp I went to when I was 18 was the one that talked about "walking worthy of the call" the one my children attend goes over Bible stories and basic doctrine. I take my kids to church, they have a choice, they aren't being forced or scared into anything, if they didn't want to go I would find something else for them to do.

It is on the front page. :confused: It is the main point of the camp, and they aren't hiding it. We, at least I, am not reading anything extra into it. They are blatantly saying they want this country to only be a Christian nation and that others should be changed.

I don't see why you're defending this as if you're part of it. This is not a standard, benign, church camp.

A Christian's goal is to spread the gospel, it's kinda important to find other people to convert. They didn't say they wanted to take the country by force, to turn it into a theocracy........that's what I am looking for, the "we want to castrate and/or murder all non-Christians" statement.

Oh, and about the last part? I am tired of people saying "you have religious freedom" and in the same breath saying "but don't raise your kids according to your religion, or take them to church, or talk about God, or have private land set aside to do Bible camp......or look at me like you might be thinking something"

Usually your church goes with you, do you not think that children should go to church? that's other people teaching them things. It's a Bible camp, they talk over and over again about the basic doctrine, you are supposed to bring your "unchurched friends" so that they can be exposed to church.

I think kids should go to church if they are Christian but I wouldn't send them off to a camp unless they wanted to.

My concern is when people start to mix political activism in with theological instruction and it is difficult to tell if the camp is necessarily teaching what the church teaches. In my opinion, there's a difference between teaching the Bible and Christian morality and mixing political activism in to it.

Regardless of what anyone attempting to defend this thinks, this place is the fundamentalist Christian equivilent of an Islamic terrorist training camp.Get real. It's not like they'll be blowing themselves up.

that's what I am looking for, the "we want to castrate and/or murder all non-Christians" statement.

Erm, well, that would be illegal for them to say. Conspiracy to commit murder/assault. So you're not gonna find it.

The church camp I went to when I was 18 was the one that talked about "walking worthy of the call" the one my children attend goes over Bible stories and basic doctrine. I take my kids to church, they have a choice, they aren't being forced or scared into anything, if they didn't want to go I would find something else for them to do.


Which is the difference between you and this camp. In this camp, we're dealing with children much smaller than eighteen, who probably weren't given much choice in whether they wanted to go to camp.

Get real. It's not like they'll be blowing themselves up.

I'm sure they would if prompted.

Praise the Lord, fore He has produced.

Regardless of what anyone attempting to defend this thinks, this place is the fundamentalist Christian equivilent of an Islamic terrorist training camp.

oh, and thank you for that. nevermind.

The IMDB with actual quotes........golly gee..........it's bad. :p

The church camp I went to when I was 18 was the one that talked about "walking worthy of the call" the one my children attend goes over Bible stories and basic doctrine. I take my kids to church, they have a choice, they aren't being forced or scared into anything, if they didn't want to go I would find something else for them to do.

Do you however actually offer those alternatives to them ? Teach them about religions besides your own in an objective way for instance (after which you can explain why you made your choice to them - assuming that was a concious choice) ?

The church camp I went to when I was 18 was the one that talked about "walking worthy of the call" the one my children attend goes over Bible stories and basic doctrine. I take my kids to church, they have a choice, they aren't being forced or scared into anything, if they didn't want to go I would find something else for them to do.

I have no problem with those types of camps; if you're 18, you know what you're doing and are capable of making sound judgements when it comes to religious beliefs. And the latter is just a Bible camp; it sounds no different than the religion class or the PSR I had when I attended Catholic school except in a less formal setting. Those camps are perfectly fine, and if the kids want to do them I think it would be a great way to build their faith in a safe and encouraging setting.

I'm sure they would if prompted.I'm sure there would be a lot less parents sending their children to that camp if that were the case.

Do you however actually offer those alternatives to them ? Teach them about religions besides your own in an objective way for instance (after which you can explain why you made your choice to them - assuming that was a concious choice) ?

I did make a choice on my own, after I was an adult.

Yes, we talk about other religions, I don't go way in depth but they are free to explore, if they want to I will check them out some books about them to give a full view.

From a few of the links on the site and the backrounds given of some the people the film focused on, it doesn't look like an average Bible camp. The leaders are dedicated missionaries and evangelists, and it looks like they want to take kids around the age of 10 and turn them into littled preachers and missionaries.

This is from the camp leader's description:
It was then she began to feel part of a growing army of children's ministers that see children as "an untapped resource of potential dynamos as ministers of the gospel.

The children are being trained as early leaders and fearless Christian advocates. From the desription of one of the children:
Tory is an 11 year-old girl from Missouri. She feels her gifts are prophesy, cance, and a calling to speak out against abortion.

This is nothing like the camps I remember from my childhood. The attitude the leaders seem to have towards these kids is like a parent that's pushing a child to become a star singer or athlete. I'm worried that these kids aren't going to give this a second thought, or an independent thought, and go along life without thinking if they really wanted to become little minister. Their teen years are going to be hell.

I saw a similar documentary about this same thing but it was following teens who had been in camps like these and it was kind of scary. One guy was saying "I'm going to be President and Gods word will be law". This wasn't a one off thing as they interviewed more of these kids who all said similar things. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't religion and state supposed to be seperate?

oh, and thank you for that. nevermind.

The IMDB with actual quotes........golly gee..........it's bad. :p

Hey, I gave you a picture with the bits I was talking about underlined

I did make a choice on my own, after I was an adult.

Yes, we talk about other religions, I don't go way in depth but they are free to explore, if they want to I will check them out some books about them to give a full view.

In that case I salute you, and hope your children will follow your excellent example :)

I'm sure there would be a lot less parents sending their children to that camp if that were the case.

Do we have any numbers on how many parents are sending their kids to the camp?

Hey, I gave you a picture with the bits I was talking about underlined

yeah, but those are things that are said around my church and we don't mean anything sinister by them.

his quote from IMDB, was just shocking and awful and bad.

they hear the same stuff at church. I don't see a problem, although my kids go to church camp so maybe I am biased.

The whole "on fire", "God's army", and "Soldiers of God" it's all church talk, nobody is doing anything violent.
It's not violence that's scary. It's that these kids are being indoctrinated to change the political system and make America into a theocracy. At least that's the way it looks from my point of view.

I did make a choice on my own, after I was an adult.

Yes, we talk about other religions, I don't go way in depth but they are free to explore, if they want to I will check them out some books about them to give a full view.

That's admirable. Teach the kids what you believe and encourage their faith, but still leave the door open to other beliefs. If anything, encouraging open-minded investigation of their religious beliefs will strengthen their faith because they accept that belief of their own free will.

I'm sure there would be a lot less parents sending their children to that camp if that were the case.

ok

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government". Children learn that "science doesn't prove anything," and learn to consider themselves part of an Army of God. They are compelled to pledge that they will fight to end abortion. They are even pushed into publicly confessing their impure thoughts, and many of them cry and wail charismatically.

The camp director explains that she admires the way Islamic cultures raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith. I'm not saying that we're going to see little Jesus suicide bombs going off but the fact that teh director of the camp would say that should give you pause.

That's admirable. Teach the kids what you believe and encourage their faith, but still leave the door open to other beliefs. If anything, encouraging open-minded investigation of their religious beliefs will strengthen their faith because they accept that belief of their own free will.

And if that fails, you can make comments about the little heathens at home.:p

It's not violence that's scary. It's that these kids are being indoctrinated to change the political system and make America into a theocracy. At least that's the way it looks from my point of view.

I didn't see that until I read the IMDB review.......I saw the same outward stuff that goes on at church camp around here (you know minus the mug smashing and the science bashing)

ok

I'm not saying that we're going to see little Jesus suicide bombs going off but the fact that teh director of the camp would say that should give you pause.It does. What I'm saying is I'm sure that there would be a couple parents getting second thoughts if theire kids were being trained in building bombs instead of in standing on Capitol Hill with their mouths taped shut.

I must have missed that part.

again I must have missed it.

I haven't been to that camp, but I didn't see all this "let's make America a theocracy" stuff........maybe you guys can find it for me?

Well you kind of don't see it because it's in your area of beliefs.

Take a look at the movie clip.

"Are you ready to die for Christ?!"

"This means war! This means war!"

It does. What I'm saying is I'm sure that there would be a couple parents getting second thoughts if theire kids were being trained in building bombs instead of in standing on Capitol Hill with their mouths taped shut.

Well, since not every Christian in the country sends their kids there, your point is kinda redundant, eh? Who say's there's not parents having second thoughts?

It does. What I'm saying is I'm sure that there would be a couple parents getting second thoughts if theire kids were being trained in building bombs instead of in standing on Capitol Hill with their mouths taped shut.

You do not believe that seeing rows of young children with their mouths taped shut to promote their beliefs is disturbing ? They are children ! There are reasons we do not let them vote, drive, drink or many other things that requires a certain level of development. Religion should be among them.

It didn't say it. But then ya know, the Bolsheviks never said "YES! When we're in power, we'll introduce MASS MURDER OF MILLIONS!" before the fact either.



They also mean turning the USA into a Christian Nation by infiltrating its government and gradually eroding away religious freedom and adding a theocratic touch to all things American.

Knee-jerk much?

Go to a evangelical church and hear the service....it always says stuff like this, its called energizing oratory...

And if that fails, you can make comments about the little heathens at home.:p

Hobson's choice lives to this day...

Get real. It's not like they'll be blowing themselves up.

Yea suicide is kind of frowned upon.

they hear the same stuff at church. I don't see a problem, although my kids go to church camp so maybe I am biased.

The whole "on fire", "God's army", and "Soldiers of God" it's all church talk, nobody is doing anything violent.

hearing the same stuff at church doesn't make it right (if anything it makes church more wrong :p)

and put red or communist instead of church or god and you might see why its a bit militant and scary - "red army", "soldiers of communism"



its also simply scary in that the very thing they are 'training' the kids to do is exactly what would be my worst nightmare for american politics... more christian politicians and more religious influence in government. hell that would be terrible for any government, and training kids to do this is just wrong. lets see what kind a reaction a communist camp, or a facist camp to train kids to overthrow the evil bourgois or kill all the jews would get...


edit: camps like this also polarising believers and non-belivers is also just not a terribly good idea. to actually make children think they are at war with non-believers or whatever is just sick (though i have yet to see the movie and am just conjectureing at the moment)

You do not believe that seeing rows of young children with their mouths taped shut to promote their beliefs is disturbing ? They are children ! There are reasons we do not let them vote, drive, drink or many other things that requires a certain level of development. Religion should be among them.

Damn. That's a really good point.

Well you kind of don't see it because it's in your area of beliefs.

Take a look at the movie clip.

"Are you ready to die for Christ?!"

"This means war! This means war!"
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11651374&postcount=52

yeah, but those are things that are said around my church and we don't mean anything sinister by them.

his quote from IMDB, was just shocking and awful and bad.

Government by Christians for Christians is not sinister?

Knee-jerk much?

Go to a evangelical church and hear the service....it always says stuff like this, its called energizing oratory...

Knee-jerk much? Spend some time reading the reviews and watching the preview of the movie and you'll see that what is going on here is much more than "energizing oratory."

Government by Christians for Christians is not sinister?

we don't mean that at my church, we believe that a free church in a free state is God's intention.

we don't mean that at my church, we believe that a free church in a free state is God's intention.

I think we all get it. Smunkee good. Burning kids bad. Yes?

I think we all get it. Smunkee good. Burning kids bad. Yes?

damn skippy and don't you forget it. ;)

You do not believe that seeing rows of young children with their mouths taped shut to promote their beliefs is disturbing ? Yes, but I do not believe that it is equatable with terror indoctrination camps. Similar, but not a Christian fundamentalist equivalent.

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government". Children learn that "science doesn't prove anything," and learn to consider themselves part of an Army of God. They are compelled to pledge that they will fight to end abortion. They are even pushed into publicly confessing their impure thoughts, and many of them cry and wail charismatically.

The camp director explains that she admires the way Islamic cultures raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith.

WTF? Jeez even I don't agree with this.

I think we all get it. Smunkee good. Burning kids bad. Yes?

Not even over a roasting fire? :(

WTF? Jeez even I don't agree with this.

yeah, that's what got me too.......creepy.

Not even over a roasting fire? :(

Nah. Burning bad with kids, like marshmallows.

Yes, but I do not believe that it is equatable with terror indoctrination camps. Similar, but not a Christian fundamentalist equivalent.

That would be more along the lines of Christian Reconstructionist or Identity movements; these camps are pretty disturbing, but I seriously doubt that any of the kids who go to them would consider using terror tactics to achieve their aims. However, there is the risk that extremism begets extremism, and as you move farther out of the mainstream it can become easier to fall prey to Identity-type ideologies.

Suffice to say, send your kids to a local Bible camp sponsored by your church and run by people you know and stay away from this stuff.

WTF? Jeez even I don't agree with this.

Eric Rudolph would be proud.

Not even over a roasting fire? :(

baby tastes like pork... apparently *shiftyeyes*

WTF? Jeez even I don't agree with this.

scary shit...

Knee-jerk much? Spend some time reading the reviews and watching the preview of the movie and you'll see that what is going on here is much more than "energizing oratory."

sorry about that, video wouldn't work on my crappy laptop, just saw it, scary shit.

Especially how the pastor lady was equating her camp with a hamas training camp. Anyone else sort get a "hitler youth" feeling from this???

Not even over a roasting fire? :(

Children roasting on an open fire,
Jackoffs nipping on yo toes
poo logs floating in an open bowl
Merry Christmas, to you...

Children roasting on an open fire,
Jackoffs nipping on yo toes
poo logs floating in an open bowl
Merry Christmas, to you...

That's not coal in your stocking....

WTF? Jeez even I don't agree with this.

WOW. why is the gov't not scared by this stuff? Kids being indoctrinated by a woman who admires suicide bombers.............

That would be more along the lines of Christian Reconstructionist or Identity movements; these camps are pretty disturbing, but I seriously doubt that any of the kids who go to them would consider using terror tactics to achieve their aims.I don't know, I could see a McVeigh or two springing up from this crop of kids.

baby tastes like pork... apparently *shiftyeyes*


:D

Children roasting on an open fire,
Jackoffs nipping on yo toes
poo logs floating in an open bowl
Merry Christmas, to you...


:D creative!

WOW. why is the gov't not scared by this stuff? Kids being indoctrinated by a woman who admires suicide bombers.............

Have you looked at our government lately? Faith-based initiatives? God told the President what to do?

America has been prone to waves of Christian revivalism going back to colonial times. It's nothing new, though this manifestation is a bit scary.

I don't know, I could see a McVeigh or two springing up from this crop of kids.

definetely... I actually think the Dept. of homeland security should close these camps. At least moniter their financial transactions...

I don't know, I could see a McVeigh or two springing up from this crop of kids.

I think there is that risk but it depends on a lot of other factors; I mentioned in a later post that these kinds of groups could be conducive to more radical ideologies, especially if you combine this kind of treatment with an oppressive childhood and parental indoctrination. It gets even worse if these kids are already loners or socially isolated...personally, I think these kinds of camps could be easy springboards to radical and violent ideologies, but not necessariy. It depends on a combination of factors.

That part with the smashing mugs that say "government" is pretty creepy...that's the kind of stuff I could see leading to terrorism. Even if it doesn't, it's still disturbing.

sorry about that, video wouldn't work on my crappy laptop, just saw it, scary shit.

Especially how the pastor lady was equating her camp with a hamas training camp. Anyone else sort get a "hitler youth" feeling from this???

I did, but I used the Soviets as an example because I figured someone would scream GODWINNNNNNNNN LOL DISMISSED at me. :p

Especially how the pastor lady was equating her camp with a hamas training camp. Anyone else sort get a "hitler youth" feeling from this???


It's funny you mention that. I didn't get what the kids were chanting but it made me think of "Sieg Heil!...Sieg Heil!...Sieg Heil!...."

(Please note, this comes from one who does, indeed, considerer himself a born again Christian.)

That lady is nuts.

;) I wouldn't worry about most of them. They'll hit puberty and want to get laid really bad and realize that girls like bad boys and they'll smoke pot and ditch school and then at Thanksgiving they'll yell, "I don't care about you! I'm going to leave and go to Hollywood!" and then run away and live out here outside my work and get hooked on heroin and start sucking dick for some smack so, in the end, they'll be fine.

I did, but I used the Soviets as an example because I figured someone would scream GODWINNNNNNNNN LOL DISMISSED at me. :p

LEEEEROOOOOOOYYYY JEEEENKIIIIIINNNSSS!!!!!!! :confused:

definetely... I actually think the Dept. of homeland security should close these camps. At least moniter their financial transactions...

I don't doubt for a second that they monitor or at least keep an eye on these kinds of groups.

Thankfully, the DHS' loyalty is to the US, not President Bush, his evangelical supporters, or the Republican party and I think most of the people who work for it and make the decisions see it that way. It would be damn frightening if the government turned a blind eye to home-grown terror just because of political affiliation.

scary shit...

(Please note, this comes from one who does, indeed, considerer himself a born again Christian.)

That lady is nuts.
Too right.

definetely... I actually think the Dept. of homeland security should close these camps. At least moniter their financial transactions...

No.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

;) I wouldn't worry about most of them. They'll hit puberty and want to get laid really bad and realize that girls like bad boys and they'll smoke pot and ditch school and then at Thanksgiving they'll yell, "I don't care about you! I'm going to leave and go to Hollywood!" and then run away and live out here outside my work and get hooked on heroin and start sucking dick for some smack so, in the end, they'll be fine.

LOL

Good, for a moment there I was worried about the kids.

No.

Which works for an argument right up until a planned terror attack can be traced back there, and not at all for monitoring financial transitions.

What the smeg are they doing to these children? It's blatant brainwashing, forcing their intolerant views onto kids. I really hope these children don't become a part of Americas political future, if their intent is to force christian values on everyone. :(

No.

They can monitor their financial transactions, but they can't shut them down unless they break the law.

Which works for an argument right up until a planned terror attack can be traced back there, and not at all for monitoring financial transitions.

Yeah, I would hope they have trained binoculars on these people. But I'm also a big fan of the first amendment so in regards to shutting the camps down...

(Please note, this comes from one who does, indeed, considerer himself a born again Christian.)

That lady is nuts.

thats a good point, we need to remember that this is the most extreme wing of the evangelist movement. Not all evangelists are like this...

Just a couple modifications:

thats a good point, we need to remember that the fascists are the most extreme wing of the German Political movement. Not all Germans are like this...

Simple dismissals are not always the right thing to do.

Should we monitor them? I don't know. It's probable most of them will lose it by the time puberty hits.

Eric Rudolph would be proud.

That probably would explain a whole lot about him. Maybe we should blame his parents instead of him?

What the smeg are they doing to these children? It's blatant brainwashing, forcing their intolerant views onto kids. I really hope these children don't become a part of Americas political future, if their intent is to force christian values on everyone. :(

Their aim is not just to make these children a part of Americas future, it is to make them a tool to influence the USA now. Yes, a mere tool - because they do not plead for children to be able to vote and make all their own decisions at such a young age and therefor can not claim they truly believe that the childrens opinions and beliefs have any worth.

After all, politics is simple compared to religion...

You all need to get right with God! :)

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Onward Christian Soldiers!

*vomits*

Sorry about that...I get all queasy when exposed to the stench of intolerant thinking.

Now I'm fully aware that there are plenty of Church camps that are a fine environment for children. Camps like THIS one however, are another matter altogether.

Everyone making comparisons to Islamic terrorist training camps are completely correct. If this was a film about a communist camp, or an Islamic camp, or a Nazi camp, or an Atheist camp, you'd have the right-wingers up in arms trying to get the place shut down...

...but this one's OK, they're only Christians. :rolleyes:

You all need to get right with God! :)

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Onward Christian Soldiers!
Does anyone else think it's a bit oxymoronic for followers of a pacifist to be soldiers?

Does anyone else think it's a bit oxymoronic for followers of a pacifist to be soldiers?

yup, its also ironic that multi-million dollar churches are dedicated to the man that said "the meek shall inherit the earth"

Does anyone else think it's a bit oxymoronic for followers of a pacifist to be soldiers?

You're pretty close...

You're pretty close...
Well, yes, that's the beautiful thing about the word oxymoronic. It can be quite true and also sound like an insult.

"Christian Soldiers"... honestly, that term should never be used while the Crusades are still recorded history.

Well, yes, that's the beautiful thing about the word oxymoronic. It can be quite true and also sound like an insult.

"Christian Soldiers"... honestly, that term should never be used while the Crusades are still recorded history.

but wait anglachel the crusades were just a small police action in response of mooozlem agression and to protect pilgrims!! /sarcasm

You think the kids sing "Kumbaya" to the tune of The Imperial March?

Oh wait, that's the kids at the Catholic Camp.

My mistake.

They need to be aggressive! We are in a war with Satan to save the souls of the world from all the fags and dykes and atheists and freaks and communists and everyone else who is bot a decent, God-fearing Christian American! :mad:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you figure out why it is that you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why it is that I dismiss yours.

You all need to get right with God! :)

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Will they show the molesting? :p

OH, come on! Camp AND clergy?!? You know there's some molesting going on. ;)

Will they show the molesting? :p

OH, come on! Camp AND clergy?!? You know there's some molesting going on. ;)

Again, that's the Catholic camp.

You think the kids sing "Kumbaya" to the tune of The Imperial March?

Oh wait, that's the kids at the Catholic Camp.

My mistake.
I will pretend I didn't hear that transgression against the most beautiful and glorious song in the history of mankind.
(Imperial March, not Kumbaya)
The film is a first-ever look into an intense training ground that recruits born-again Christian children to become an active part of America's political future.
Why not just say "an intense training ground committed to crushing the First Amendment and decreasing the average intelligence of the American people and government."? Much more to the point.

Why not just say "an intense training ground committed to crushing the First Amendment and decreasing the average intelligence of the American people and government."? Much more to the point.

Because that would be what we call "telling the truth"...which is something that organized religion tends to shy away from.

LMAO, i love how it talks about intense training grounds

somehow i dont think it is really that intense. i wish they wouldnt do crap like this. it actually puts a hurting on what they are trying to represent. instead of reaching out to those they should be reaching out to (non bleievers) they are increasing the gap between. and from experience all these "camps" really do is create a couple of people that start to think that because they beleive in jesus they are better then non christians and becasue they went to this camp they are better then chrisitains that didnt go to the camp. It is probably through such events that lead up to the whole phelps deal

I'm sure Jesus turns over in his grave when he finds out people like this turn children into soldiers in his name :(

Hard to do anything but point and laugh at the idiots behind this camp. There are going to be some seriously fucked up young people coming out of this.

Jesus Camp, a Magnolia Pictures release, is a documentary about an evangelical summer camp in Devils Lake, North Dakota. According to Magnolia Pictures President Eamonn Bowles, "One of the great strengths of the film is that it doesn't come with any prepackaged point of view. It shows an honest and impartial depiction of one faction of the evangelical Christian community...”

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp )

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Some documentary makers want to get an "honest and impartial" impression of something, so they go out of their way to find the single most psychotic and disturbing example of said something they possibly can. And of course their documentary is completely unbiased. Agenda? Never! Just felt like wasting some film for no particular reason. Sorry, I've followed and studied politics far too long to fall for any of this "I'm not biased! Honest!" bullshit.

If you're going to make extremely broad generalizations about an entire religion (the point of this documentary, I'm willing to bet, regardless of Magnolia's President's claims), it helps to cite more than one single isolated example. Someone present a "documentary" that depicts everyday life in every, or at least a vast majority, of christian summer camps in the entire United States. Then I might put some weight in what I see.

It's actually quite amusing. Everyone is going out of their mind with worry about the hidden agendas, motovations, conspiracies (suicide bombers? for Jebus' sake...) and brainwashing employed by the christian threat, while taking the word of these documentary makers at face value with little or no critical analysis as far as I can see, having read what portion of the thread that I have. Interesting.

(I'm not keen on defending religion [search my username in this forum to find threads that confirm this fact], and I'm not doing so here. Just pointing out what I think is some seriously flawed thinking. Thinking which doesn't happen to corespond with my own experiences in various christian summer camps. Yeah, I've been hopelessly brainwashed...which is why I haven't been to church in years, actively argue against any religion I come across, and hate G.W.Bush with a passion. Totally brainwashed. :rolleyes: )

My total knowledge of Christian camps comes from the one where my sister worked. Apparently they made glow-in-the-dark planets every night, and the food tasted terrible.

I saw a trailer for Jesus Camp. In one scene the religious leader asks the kids if they are willing to give up their lives for Christ. No one finds this worrying? Breeding a new generation of fanatics? I suppose this movie can show this and then move to a clip of Musim kids who are willing to give their lives for Allah. Only fair. For balance you understand.

...and the food tasted terrible.

It is my own experience that, to the average American child/teenager, anything not sugar coated or deep-fried tastes "terrible." Luckly, both camps I attended had facilities where triglyceride infused edibles were able to be purchased. :D

I saw a trailer for Jesus Camp. In one scene the religious leader asks the kids if they are willing to give up their lives for Christ. No one finds this worrying?

Not necessarily. I've heard the same thing myself. Of course, in my case, "giving up one's life" was a metaphor for being willing to live one's life according to the precepts and requirements of the religion in question, not an actual inducement or requirement to literally physically die or to cause others to die. Another common way I've heard to view it, is how a loving husband and wife "give up their lives" to each other. The intended purpose is to relate to Christ dying on the cross in order to forgive sins and such as an act of love; the previous self dies metaphorically by accepting Christ as one's savior and is then remade anew and forgiven, etc.

See also: the famous mythological creature called the Phoenix, another image or metaphor often used to describe Christian salvation. The bird dies by burning itself up by it's own volition, but then is reborn (that is, "born again") anew from the ashes. The purpose is reconstruction and renewal, not simply destruction. Certainly not involuntary destruction of other people.

Of course, when we're all going out of our minds over those crazy fundies, all the rich history, metaphor, mythology, imagery, and general context gets pushed under the rug. Pointing out the crazy psychos is far more entertaining.

Not necessarily. I've heard the same thing myself. Of course, in my case, "giving up one's life" was a metaphor for being willing to live one's life according to the precepts and requirements of the religion in question, not an actual inducement or requirement to literally physically die or to cause others to die. Another common way I've heard to view it, is how a loving husband and wife "give up their lives" to each other. The intended purpose is to relate to Christ dying on the cross in order to forgive sins and such as an act of love; the previous self dies metaphorically by accepting Christ as one's savior and is then remade anew and forgiven, etc.

The people in that movie looked very fanatical. I'd say that the "giving your life" was quite literal. Besides people who wear their religion on their sleeve like they do make me worry about their tolerance for other beliefs. After all if you are not with Christ then the holy Christian warriors will have to... deal with you.

All it means is more targets if the idiots decide to try something stupid.

and 10 years later the kid with the mullet (in the first film on that website) will become the next Sniper killer, killing the non believers.

It does serve as a wake-up call for society though. Along the lines of: IGNORE THESE STUPID PEOPLE. LISTEN TO THEM AT YOUR OWN PERIL.

The people in that movie looked very fanatical. I'd say that the "giving your life" was quite literal.


I haven't seen the movie, so I can't pass judgement as to whether someone looked "fanatical." I don't argue that there aren't fanatics out there willing to do harm. I do argue that there are a lot of decent folks out there who have to take a lot of grief they don't deserve because of the fanatics they are unfairly compared to, however. (edit: which the documentary makers, I'm willing to bet, aren't losing any sleep over.)


After all if you are not with Christ then the holy Christian warriors will have to... deal with you.


The second anyone resorts to aggressive violence, I will be the first to call for justice. Until then, let us not invent bogeymen who are not there. Again, I fear for those who will get caught in the crossfire. The answer to fanaticism is not more fanaticism.

and 10 years later the kid with the mullet (in the first film on that website) will become the next Sniper killer, killing the non believers.

Not fair, I wanna be able to clearly see the future with omniscient, god-like perfection too! :(

Not fair, I wanna be able to clearly see the future with omniscient, god-like perfection too! :(

Ok, but you must give me $40,000, give up your life as you know it and try to get other people to join and waste their money too! Oh and here's a book that I put a half-assed effort into. ;)

It is my own experience that, to the average American child/teenager, anything not sugar coated or deep-fried tastes "terrible." Luckly, both camps I attended had facilities where triglyceride infused edibles were able to be purchased. :D

I know her complaint was that it was all deep fried and totally without any seasoning whatsoever. Even salt and pepper were not in the meals.

Blah.

Ok, but you must give me $40,000, give up your life as you know it and try to get other people to join and waste their money too! Oh and here's a book that I put a half-assed effort into. ;)

**helps gets tax exempt status for new religion by laying face down in the Reflecting Pool in Washington D.C. until drowned**

(edit: having superhero-level master carpentry skills would be totally cool too. :( )

The second anyone resorts to aggressive violence, I will be the first to call for justice. Until then, let us not invent bogeymen who are not there. Again, I fear for those who will get caught in the crossfire. The answer to fanaticism is not more fanaticism.

Ok, perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit. :p

Still, when fundamental Christians harass me on the street about converting and about all the good things about joining with Christ it makes me suspicious on what they would like to do to those who aren't with Christ. I doubt many of these sorts of people would accept the idea that there are different paths to whatever enlightenment you seek. I have to wonder how tolerant the kids who come out of this Jesus camp will be to other religions...

Ok, perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit. :p

Still, when fundamental Christians harass me on the street about converting and about all the good things about joining with Christ it makes me suspicious on what they would like to do to those who aren't with Christ. I doubt many of these sorts of people would accept the idea that there are different paths to whatever enlightenment you seek. I have to wonder how tolerant the kids who come out of this Jesus camp will be to other religions...

Eh about as tolerant as a love child between a Klansman and a Neo-Nazi. Hehe, wouldn't it be funny if they gave birth to a black gay child? :D

**helps gets tax exempt status for new religion by laying face down in the Reflecting Pool in Washington D.C. until drowned**

(edit: having superhero-level master carpentry skills would be totally cool too. :( )

But you don't need master carpentry skills once you learn the secret behind my religion!

You must "donate" $400,000 to the cul...I mean church first.

Eh about as tolerant as a love child between a Klansman and a Neo-Nazi. Hehe, wouldn't it be funny if they gave birth to a black gay child? :D

I suppose Jesus could have a sense of humor that way. :D

I suppose Jesus could have a sense of humor that way. :D

I know if I was God I would do that to them.

I doubt many of these sorts of people would accept the idea that there are different paths to whatever enlightenment you seek. I have to wonder how tolerant the kids who come out of this Jesus camp will be to other religions...

Probably not, to the first sentence, and probably not very much to the second.

But there's still a pretty wide jump from that to strapping explosives around one's chest, especially considering that there are far more variables involved in such things than simple choice of religion; most people in the United States, wacko fundamentalist or not, are not dirt poor, have adequate political representation, operate within a market economy instead of a clientalist economy*, are not subject to warlordism, and don't face invasion and occupation by the world's strongest military force. These and more are what cause the sort of terrorism that destroyed the World Trade Center; Allah is just a convienient excuse.

*See also: "Market Civilization and Its Clash with Terror" by Michael Mousseau in New Global Dangers: Changing Dimensions of International Security: An International Security Reader edited by M. E. Brown, O. R. Coté, Jr., S. M. Lynn-Jones, and S. E. Miller (2004, MIT Press; Cambridge, Mass.) and/or MIT Press website (http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10309)