NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/06/school.standoff.ap/index.html

On the res, hope they dont scalp the hostages.

I hope they do. Assuming they're white, and the hostage takers are Dine, they had it comin'...

I hope they do. Assuming they're white, and the hostage takers are Dine, they had it comin'...

I imagine it would be pretty hard for a white hostage negotiator to get anywhere with these guys.


"We PROMISE we'll get you a helicopter!"

I hope they do. Assuming they're white, and the hostage takers are Dine, they had it comin'...

"sins of the father...."

You know we were the ones that taught Native Americans about scalping. The British and the French would pay NA for scalps from the other side during the French and Indian war.

You know we were the ones that taught Native Americans about scalping. The British and the French would pay NA for scalps from the other side during the French and Indian war.

Makes a lot of sense, especially because, you know, the british and french have always been so big on scalping the other army in all of their wars. :rolleyes:

Makes a lot of sense, especially because, you know, the british and french have always been so big on scalping the other army in all of their wars. :rolleyes:

just because the europeans didn't do it doesn't mean they wouldn't pay the indians to do it, especially considering the europeans thought that the indians scalped their captives...

I imagine it would be pretty hard for a white hostage negotiator to get anywhere with these guys.


"We PROMISE we'll get you a helicopter!"

LOL! Nice :)

Are the hostage takers Native American? The article didn't specify.

Or is it just some guy with a pentet of knife-weilding bitches?

just because the europeans didn't do it doesn't mean they wouldn't pay the indians to do it, especially considering the europeans thought that the indians scalped their captives...


I wonder what would give them that idea? :rolleyes:

LOL! Nice :)

Are the hostage takers Native American? The article didn't specify.

Or is it just some guy with a pentet of knife-weilding bitches?

I imagine its 95%+ indian up there, its on the reservation and pretty far from arizona's population centers.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/06/school.standoff.ap/index.html

On the res, hope they dont scalp the hostages.

Say, the crack about scalping the hostages would be considered in very bad taste in most places. I don't think you meant anything by it, but scalping hasn't taken place for a very long time. And, in fact, was probably started by the white's. I mention this merely as a point of information and not a judgement.

Say, the crack about scalping the hostages would be considered in very bad taste in most places. I don't think you meant anything by it, but scalping hasn't taken place for a very long time. And, in fact, was probably started by the white's. I mention this merely as a point of information and not a judgement.

I know lots of indians living here in AZ, and we like to poke fun at one another.

They are, you know, the original Homeland Security :)

I imagine it would be pretty hard for a white hostage negotiator to get anywhere with these guys.


"We PROMISE we'll get you a helicopter!"
How 'bout we give them $50 in beads?
"sins of the father...."

*shrug* I have to atone for a lot because of my ancestors. I'm a sixteenth Indian... which essentially means that one of my great-great-grandparents was a rapist. You probably think I'm crazy, but I think that we're guilty of a sin that shouldn't be forgiven.

And just because we stopped forcing Indians off of their land doesn't mean we've atoned. Indians have the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide out of any demographic in America, and that is our fault.

I imagine its 95%+ indian up there, its on the reservation and pretty far from arizona's population centers.

I see. So the hostage takers and hostages are likely to be Native American.

I know lots of indians living here in AZ, and we like to poke fun at one another.

They are, you know, the original Homeland Security :)

Yea, I had a friend who was half Cherokee. We would makes jokes, like making a show of calling corn "Maize," and telling him he should break out the fire arrows when he was pissed as someone. Good fun.

I know lots of indians living here in AZ, and we like to poke fun at one another.

They are, you know, the original Homeland Security :)

Very true they are the original Homeland Security. Geez, what a lousy job they did too. The immigration laws were very lax back then weren't they?

]
*shrug* I have to atone for a lot because of my ancestors. I'm a sixteenth Indian... which essentially means that one of my great-great-grandparents was a rapist. You probably think I'm crazy, but I think that we're guilty of a sin that shouldn't be forgiven.

Personally, I'm not reponcible for any sins but my own. You may think differently, but don't force your unearned guilt on me.

That said, the native americans got shafted big time. And more importantly, native americans alive today are still suffering for it. And something does need to be done to make it right.

Makes a lot of sense, especially because, you know, the british and french have always been so big on scalping the other army in all of their wars. :rolleyes:

Scalps were used as proof of killing, thus earning more pay. The Europeans paid for scalps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalping

It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war. For example, in the American Revolutionary War, Henry Hamilton, the British Lieutenant-Governor of Canada, was known by American Patriots as the "hair-buyer general" because it was believed he encouraged and paid his Native American allies to scalp American settlers. When Hamilton was captured in the war by the Americans, he was treated as a war criminal instead of a prisoner of war because of this. However, both Native Americans and American frontiersmen frequently scalped their victims in this era.

Scalps were used as proof of killing, thus earning more pay. The Europeans paid for scalps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalping

It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war. For example, in the American Revolutionary War, Henry Hamilton, the British Lieutenant-Governor of Canada, was known by American Patriots as the "hair-buyer general" because it was believed he encouraged and paid his Native American allies to scalp American settlers. When Hamilton was captured in the war by the Americans, he was treated as a war criminal instead of a prisoner of war because of this. However, both Native Americans and American frontiersmen frequently scalped their victims in this era.

From the same site:

"According to ethnohistorian James Axtell, there is abundant evidence that the Native American practice of scalping existed long before Europeans arrived. Axtell argues that there is no evidence that the early European explorers and settlers who came to the Americas were familiar with the ancient European practice of scalping, or that they ever taught scalping to Native Americans. Axtell writes that the idea that Europeans taught scalping to Native Americans became popular recently, during the 1960s. This idea quickly became conventional wisdom because it fit the tenor of the times of the countercultural 1960s, writes Axtell, but he argues that archaeological, historical, pictorial, and linguistic evidence contradicts this notion."

"ok, Ok! We'll Fund Your Casino!"

Ok, here is another point of view from the same source. So who is right? Beats me.

Fiction: American Indians have invented a number of positive things, but they also invented scalping.
Fact: American Indians probably learned the practice of scalping from the Europeans. Although archaeologists have found a few prehistoric human remains in the Americas that show evidence of cut marks on the skulls, they disagree about whether these marks are evidence of scalping. Absolutely no evidence exists that scalping was a widespread practice in the Americas before European contact. If it was practiced, it was done by very few tribes and then very infrequently.

On the other hand, scalping was a well-established tradition for Europeans. Ancient Scythians (Russians) practiced it. Herodotus, the Greek Historian, wrote of them in B.C. 440, "The Scythian soldier scrapes the scalp clean of flesh and softening it by rubbing between the hands, uses it thenceforth as a napkin. The Scyth is proud of these scalps and hangs them from his bridle rein; the greater the number of such napkins that a man can show, the more highly is he esteemed among them. Many make themselves cloaks by sewing a quantity of these scalps together."

Much later the English paid bounties for Irish heads. Because scalps were easier to transport and store than heads, Europeans sometimes substituted scalping for headhunting. Records show that the Earl of Wessex England scalped his enemies in 11th century.

In 1706 the governor of Pennsylvania offered 130 pieces of eight for the scalp of Indian men over twelve years of age and 50 pieces of eight for a woman’s scalp. Because it was impossible for those who paid the bounty to determine the victim’s sex – and sometimes the age – from the scalp alone, killing women and children became a way to make easy money.

During the French and Indian Wars and later during the war between the British and the Colonists, both the British and the French encouraged their Indian allies to scalp their enemies providing them with metal scalping knives.

The practice of paying bounties for Indian scalps did not end until the 1800’s.
Disparaging American Indian culture by blaming Indians for scalping while omitting reference to the long standing European tradition of bounties for scalps is not only partial scholarship – it is racist scholarship.

Whether Indian ancestors were encouraged by the europeans or scalped for the sheer joy, I sure hope the ones in the school abstain from the practice. Five of them have KNIVES.

Apparently there actually was no armed standoff, just local LEOs and the media jumping the gun.

Repeat: no scalpings, broken treaties or casinos involved, nothing to see here.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14706578/

Glad to hear that no one got hurt. I live just miles from where the Red Lake shootings took place 18 months ago. We don't need a repeat of that.

You know we were the ones that taught Native Americans about scalping.

Untrue. As others have pointed out, the practice of scalping in North America predates the British and French colonies. The myth that it was the Europeans who taught the Native Americans to scalp dates back to the 60's.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/1998/scalping.html
http://www.mze.com/sunshineparty/scalping.html
http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo08018.html

The British and the French would pay NA for scalps from the other side during the French and Indian war.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they introduced the practice. It may have widened it, however.

Makes a lot of sense, especially because, you know, the british and french have always been so big on scalping the other army in all of their wars.

Scalping was not unique to North America. The Franks, Visigoths, and Anglo-Saxons also scalped each other, for example.

Very true they are the original Homeland Security. Geez, what a lousy job they did too. The immigration laws were very lax back then weren't they?
No kidding ... they let pretty much every worthless European in.

Repeat: no scalpings, broken treaties or casinos involved, nothing to see here.


Couldn't resists putting a few more stereotypes in the thread could you?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/06/school.standoff.ap/index.html

On the res, hope they dont scalp the hostages.

I...

Did you read the article?

A male was armed with a gun, while five females had knives, said Jim Benally, police chief for Window Rock, a nearby community.

And where does it mention that they were Navajo? This taking place on Navajo land doesn't mean the hostage takers had to be local...