NationStates Jolt Archive

Tell me what you think of it. Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees? Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it? Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

It's a bit weird. Not sure what to make of it.

It's horseshit, like all religions.

Childish play-acting. Fine up till late teens, but grown, educated men and women should know better.

Whatever floats their boat. I've known a few Wiccans who were very nice and I enjoyed debating them about theology.

I've also known a few who were as bad as the fundies and had to hit everyone they encountered over the head with their religion.

Its just another religion to me

Childish play-acting. Fine up till late teens, but grown, educated men and women should know better.

That, too.

Childish play-acting. Fine up till late teens, but grown, educated men and women should know better.

And why do you think it's such a "childish" religion?

It's horseshit, like all religions.

You live too close to Salem!

*sharpens pitchfork*

It's horseshit, like all religions.

True, but you get to be naked during some of the ceremonies, so on that basis alone ... hmm, but do I really want to see most of those people naked? :eek: I change my mind, all religion is equine excrement.

That, too.

I'll add you to my above question answeree-list.

Childish play-acting. Fine up till late teens, but grown, educated men and women should know better.

That's true about all religions, grown, educated people should know better. As for play-acting, have you watched any of the big ceremonies of the major religions? They have way better costumes than the Wiccans.

Tell me what you think of it. Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees? Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it? Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

I don't know much about it. I suppose it is peaceful. I don't consider it a cult, but then I wouldn't consider it a religion, more of a belief ( I know thats what religion is but I don;t mean it in that kind of way!) and a way of life.

You live too close to Salem!

*sharpens pitchfork*

But I weigh more than a duck. :p

I don't know much about it. I suppose it is peaceful. I don't consider it a cult, but then I wouldn't consider it a religion, <snip>

Why?

I haven't met any of them that don't fall into at least 3 out of 4 of the following


young or likewise immature
rebelling against their parents
seem to be doing it to fit in
trying to convert me forcefully


so you know I probably don't have an entirely unbiased view.

That's true about all religions, grown, educated people should know better. As for play-acting, have you watched any of the big ceremonies of the major religions? They have way better costumes than the Wiccans.

So now we consider all religious ceremonies "childish play-acting", and that the people participating in them take no seriousness in it at all, and are just doing it for fun?

I haven't met any of them that don't fall into at least 3 out of 4 of the following


young or likewise immature
rebelling against their parents
seem to be doing it to fit in
trying to convert me forcefully


so you know I probably don't have an entirely unbiased view.

Usually all of the first three -- especially the third, conforming to the non-conformists. Oh, the ironing. :rolleyes:

Tell me what you think of it. Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees? Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it? Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

No worse than any other religion, and more 'rational' than many I've encountered.

As a religion, the central tenets seem to be that we have personal relationships with our god or gods, that the world thrives on duality and multiplicity, and that there is power within the individual.

I see nothing too objectionable in that.


Some object to the idea of 'witch-craft'. Perhaps they fail to grasp the simple fact that 'witch-craft' is not the religion... 'wicca' is. It is as simple, and as great a divide, as the difference between 'hoodoo' and 'voodoo'.

But - even with the 'witch-craft' element involved... I see no real difference between 'casting a circle' and facing east to pray, between skyclad celebration of Beltane and wearing a funny collar to preach the Easter service.

Indeed - when it comes down to it, I'll chose skyclad over 'dog-collar' any day... and celebrating the turning of the seasons seems more logical to me, than giving each other presents because someone, a long time ago, might have had a birthday.

I haven't met any of them that don't fall into at least 3 out of 4 of the following


young or likewise immature
rebelling against their parents
seem to be doing it to fit in
trying to convert me forcefully


so you know I probably don't have an entirely unbiased view.

1 + 2. Doing it to be "different".

3. Exactly what you said.

4. No Wiccans will ever try to convert you.

That said, none of those people are probably true Wiccans. They're either doing it to be different, to piss of their parents, or aren't true Wiccans. I know a few REAL Wiccans. They're nothing like that.

So now we consider all religious ceremonies "childish play-acting", and that the people participating in them take no seriousness in it at all, and are just doing it for fun?

Okay, I was being more than a little facetious. I'm sure the people participating are experiencing a deep spiritual ... something (and I'm not being facetious at all). I personally don't see the need for adults to have imaginary friends. And I should also know better than to post before 8:00 AM.

I haven't met any of them that don't fall into at least 3 out of 4 of the following


young or likewise immature
rebelling against their parents
seem to be doing it to fit in
trying to convert me forcefully


so you know I probably don't have an entirely unbiased view.

Apart from the second point, these have been my almost universal experiences with 'christians', since I moved to Georgia.

Indeed - when it comes down to it, I'll chose skyclad over 'dog-collar' any day... and celebrating the turning of the seasons seems more logical to me, than giving each other presents because someone, a long time ago, might have had a birthday.

He was actually born in the Spring, apparently.

Okay, I was being more than a little facetious. I'm sure the people participating are experiencing a deep spiritual ... something (and I'm not being facetious at all). I personally don't see the need for adults to have imaginary friends. And I should also know better than to post before 8:00 AM.

And by imaginary friends you mean gods and goddesses, right? I guess after reading that that is all they are, imaginary friends. EDIT: But those imaginary friends certainly bring us comfort.

Apart from the second point, these have been my almost universal experiences with 'christians', since I moved to Georgia.

true, re-reading it, it's my experience with a lot of people........even people in my own denomination. :(

He was actually born in the Spring, apparently.

Where did you here Spring? I've heard August. Assuming we're talking about Jesus, the only event that could be used to date his birth is the census decreed by Caesar Augustus. The trouble with that is two-fold: 1) there is no recorded census of the entire empire at any point in the decade during which Jesus is supposed to have been born, and 2) Mary and Joesph did not live in Roman territory, so they would not have been obliged to go anywhere to be counted (they lived in Galilee, which was part of the territory of one of the sons of Herod the Great).

1 + 2. Doing it to be "different".

3. Exactly what you said.

4. No Wiccans will ever try to convert you.

That said, none of those people are probably true Wiccans. They're either doing it to be different, to piss of their parents, or aren't true Wiccans. I know a few REAL Wiccans. They're nothing like that.

what are the requirements to be a "real wiccan"? do you have to fit into your little wiccan mold? do you have to be perfect? do you have to join a coven?

I know a bunch of 'witches' who are very hot.

Thats all I got to say about it.

what are the requirements to be a "real wiccan"? do you have to fit into your little wiccan mold? do you have to be perfect? do you have to join a coven?

First thing you have to do is expel the ideas that the Wiccan religion is what you see in movies, T.V. shows and books. That's all just fluff. Second thing you have to do is read the wikipedia article on it, so that when you talk about it you don't seem like a total douche. Then you talk to someone you know who is a REAL Wiccan about their religion, and make it seem as though you're interested in it. They'll guide you from there. Trust my second-hand experience, people.

And by imaginary friends you mean gods and goddesses, right? I guess after reading that that is all they are, imaginary friends. EDIT: But those imaginary friends certainly bring us comfort.

Be comforted then. Sometimes I would that there were gods and goddesses, but I don't see it and I find my own comfort in other ways. I think we've wrong-footed on this little sub-thread. As I said, I ought not try to be funny in the morning.

Where did you here Spring? I've heard August. Assuming we're talking about Jesus, the only event that could be used to date his birth is the census decreed by Caesar Augustus. The trouble with that is two-fold: 1) there is no recorded census of the entire empire at any point in the decade during which Jesus is supposed to have been born, and 2) Mary and Joesph did not live in Roman territory, so they would not have been obliged to go anywhere to be counted (they lived in Galilee, which was part of the territory of one of the sons of Herod the Great).

Some History Channel thing on Christmas. They said something along the lines of "The sheperds wouldn't be out tending their sheep in the winter. The only time they do that is in the Spring and Summer." They then went on to explain how it was probably in the Spring. But I have to agree with their logic. I don't think Sheperds would be out tending their herds in the middle of winter.

First thing you have to do is expel the ideas that the Wiccan religion is what you see in movies, T.V. shows and books. That's all just fluff. Second thing you have to do is read the wikipedia article on it, so that when you talk about it you don't seem like a total douche. Then you talk to someone you know who is a REAL Wiccan about their religion, and make it seem as though you're interested in it. They'll guide you from there. Trust my second-hand experience, people.

I don't know all the Wiccans I know are in covens.

Also, I really want to know when people say "they aren't a REAL <insert religion>" what exactly they mean by that? do they have some great position of verifying eveyrone's beliefs?

I know a bunch of 'witches' who are very hot.

Thats all I got to say about it.

Umm.... What? Firstly, Wicca is NOT, I repeat, NOT "Witchcraft". It may incorporate things like witchcraft into some of it's ceremonies, but it is absolutely NOT witchcraft.

I know a bunch of 'witches' who are very hot.

Thats all I got to say about it.


Run along, kid. :rolleyes:

I prefer Asatruisn.

I don't know all the Wiccans I know are in covens.

Also, I really want to know when people say "they aren't a REAL <insert religion>" what exactly they mean by that? do they have some great position of verifying eveyrone's beliefs?

No, we simply know what the real religion is, and obviously see that these people who think they are part of a religion are simply being pretenious, and actually know nothing about the religion. If you don't know anything about a religion, chances are you can't be a member of it.

I prefer Asatruisn.

Damnit! Why doesn't Wikipedia have an article on it...

No, we simply know what the real religion is, and obviously see that these people who think they are part of a religion are simply being pretenious, and actually know nothing about the religion. If you don't know anything about a religion, chances are you can't be a member of it.

interesting, can you explain Wicca to me? I read the wiki article you sent me to, and it says everything that I thought I knew, but you seem to think I am ignorant, so please explain.

No, we simply know what the real religion is, and obviously see that these people who think they are part of a religion are simply being pretenious, and actually know nothing about the religion. If you don't know anything about a religion, chances are you can't be a member of it.
Since Wicca doesn't have a centralized structure and an early break ment that you could be Wicca without belonging to a coven that traces back to what's-his-name, doesn't it make it hard to claim such things?

No, we simply know what the real religion is, and obviously see that these people who think they are part of a religion are simply being pretenious, and actually know nothing about the religion. If you don't know anything about a religion, chances are you can't be a member of it.

Ah, so your previous posts "asking for opinions" and pretending not to be a "Wiccan" (whatever the fuck that means) were simply trolling. "Let me drag out the people who disagree with me before I reveal myself." Well done.

interesting, can you explain Wicca to me? I read the wiki article you sent me to, and it says everything that I thought I knew, but you seem to think I am ignorant, so please explain.

What? I never said you didn't know anything about Wicca, I was simply saying you couldn't tell the difference between people who were trying to be Wiccan and were failing miserably, and those who were actual Wiccans.

Those of you who are familiar with me know that I believe in Jesus' teachings. And one of those teachings is that all people has been given a free will. So instead of arguing religous views I chose to give you a link where you can find out about Wicca and make a decision for yourself.

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=topsearchbox.webhome&query=Witchcraft

interesting, can you explain Wicca to me? I read the wiki article you sent me to, and it says everything that I thought I knew, but you seem to think I am ignorant, so please explain.

Among other things I am sure the article on Wikipedia would have meantioned that Wiccans are not suposed to try to convert people. As for your other complaints about the Wiccans you have met that is a problem of the individuals whereas you seem to think it a problem of the religion.

Since Wicca doesn't have a centralized structure and an early break ment that you could be Wicca without belonging to a coven that traces back to what's-his-name, doesn't it make it hard to claim such things?

I have a friend who is Wiccan (she's actually in her late 20's, and was my mom's friend first, but I stole her). She tells me about it, occasionally tries to get me to convert. But she understands I have my beliefs, she has hers. Yeah. So that's how I know a lot about it.

Wicca is just another religion. and all religions except atheism are stupid. Therefore, Wicca is stupid.

What? I never said you didn't know anything about Wicca, I was simply saying you couldn't tell the difference between people who were trying to be Wiccan and were failing miserably, and those who were actual Wiccans.

oh really?

First thing you have to do is expel the ideas that the Wiccan religion is what you see in movies, T.V. shows and books. That's all just fluff. Second thing you have to do is read the wikipedia article on it, so that when you talk about it you don't seem like a total douche. Then you talk to someone you know who is a REAL Wiccan about their religion, and make it seem as though you're interested in it. They'll guide you from there. Trust my second-hand experience, people.
so what was that all about?

All I said that in my experience I had met a certain type of Wiccan, you said "they aren't REAL ones" and I said "what makes a real one? how do you judge it?" you know just so I would know and not just blindly believe people who practice Wicca when they say they are Wiccan.

Ah, so your previous posts "asking for opinions" and pretending not to be a "Wiccan" (whatever the fuck that means) were simply trolling. "Let me drag out the people who disagree with me before I reveal myself." Well done.

What? I never trolled you. I was simply asking your opinion on it. When you made an opinion I didn't agree with, what did you expect me to do, just sit there? No. I debate it. And I'm not Wiccan, I'm agnostic.

Ah, so your previous posts "asking for opinions" and pretending not to be a "Wiccan"

Show me where he claimed he was not one.

And why do you think it's such a "childish" religion?

I said childish play-acting, don't confuse the issue!

People voluntarily blinding themselves by making up new religions and strictures for themselves certainly looks like a childish desire for the certainties of the nursery (lifted from Pratchett, sorry!). It's a shameful way for a grown up, educated person to behave - children and young adults have to take, amend, and invent roles to learn about the world, fine, but mature people should know better.

If you were brought up in a religion, or feel drawn to a religion that has deep roots in your society's culture, I suppose that's one thing - it can be very hard to see past it, though I think seeing past it is a desirable thing. But people actually creating new shackles for themselves, as it were... :rolleyes: Tremendously depressing thought.

Wicca is just another religion. and all religions except atheism are stupid. Therefore, Wicca is stupid.

Wow. Ulti-flame by a prejudicial athiest.

Among other things I am sure the article on Wikipedia would have meantioned that Wiccans are not suposed to try to convert people. As for your other complaints about the Wiccans you have met that is a problem of the individuals whereas you seem to think it a problem of the religion.

you will notice that I didn't offer an opinion on the religion at all, just saying that any opinion I do have is probably biased.

Although when I question anything about it, all I get back is "you don't know anything" :rolleyes: why would I question something unless I actually had questions about it?

I mean really I am not like Naliitr trying to pretend something to trap someone.

Wicca is an earth based religion created by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's (following in the footsteps of ideas like the golden dawn and the druidical revival of England). There are typically considered to be two variants of Wicca, self initiation traditions and coven initiation traditions. Most of the larger traditions (like Alexandrian, Gardenarian, Dianic, etc) require coven initation. Wiccans who are self initated cannot (by definition) be a part of any of these traditions. They sometimes refer to themselves as "hedge-witches" meaning that their instruction and practice is all from hands-on, personal learning and discovery.

Some will argue that self-initiated Wiccans are not "true Wiccans" or that their path is less authentic than the coven initiated Wiccans.

Wicca is generally considered to be a path of peace and love (though there are members of the Armed forces who are Wiccans, Wicca as a tradition does not teach pro-war)

When you are looking for a "real Wiccan" (or some kind of source that can generally be considered reliable) you generally ought to look for someone who has been initiated, has been a Wiccan for a while (say 10 years or so), perhaps has a degree within their tradition (if Coven initiated), and is recognized by their fellow community members as knowledgable in their tradition.

Of course if you run into teenagers who just got into Wicca by watching The Craft, they are not going to know what they are talking about, will be doing it to rebel against their parents, and will probably try to convince you to do it too.

Wicca is not a religion that proselytizes, anyone who claims to be doing so in the name of their religion is NOT following the generally recognized (or hard line in the case of Alexandrian or Gardenarian Wicca) tenants of the religion.

In my opinion, Wicca is a REAL religion that helps people better themselves and the world around them by giving them a source of personal strength to draw upon.

And just for the record, no, I am not Wiccan.

I said childish play-acting, don't confuse the issue!

People voluntarily blinding themselves by making up new religions and strictures for themselves

Actualy the Wiccans removed strictures rather than adding them. the only stricture in the religion being the rede.

oh really?


so what was that all about?

All I said that in my experience I had met a certain type of Wiccan, you said "they aren't REAL ones" and I said "what makes a real one? how do you judge it?" you know just so I would know and not just blindly believe people who practice Wicca when they say they are Wiccan.

You asked me what you had to do to become a "real" Wiccan. I explained what my friend did, with Wikipedia added. Wikipedia is always good to add.

You asked me what you had to do to become a "real" Wiccan. I explained what my friend did, with Wikipedia added. Wikipedia is always good to add.

uh......no you said "do research so you don't sound like a douche"

that's not "here is what my friend did"

I said childish play-acting, don't confuse the issue!

People voluntarily blinding themselves by making up new religions and strictures for themselves certainly looks like a childish desire for the certainties of the nursery (lifted from Pratchett, sorry!). It's a shameful way for a grown up, educated person to behave - children and young adults have to take, amend, and invent roles to learn about the world, fine, but mature people should know better.

If you were brought up in a religion, or feel drawn to a religion that has deep roots in your society's culture, I suppose that's one thing - it can be very hard to see past it, though I think seeing past it is a desirable thing. But people actually creating new shackles for themselves, as it were... :rolleyes: Tremendously depressing thought.

So what? When we become adults, we suddenly have no more need for a secure place to be, no more need for the comforting thoughts that religion gives us?

Wicca is an earth based religion created by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's (following in the footsteps of ideas like the golden dawn and the druidical revival of England). There are typically considered to be two variants of Wicca, self initiation traditions and coven initiation traditions. Most of the larger traditions (like Alexandrian, Gardenarian, Dianic, etc) require coven initation. Wiccans who are self initated cannot (by definition) be a part of any of these traditions. They sometimes refer to themselves as "hedge-witches" meaning that their instruction and practice is all from hands-on, personal learning and discovery.

Some will argue that self-initiated Wiccans are not "true Wiccans" or that their path is less authentic than the coven initiated Wiccans.

Wicca is generally considered to be a path of peace and love (though there are members of the Armed forces who are Wiccans, Wicca as a tradition does not teach pro-war)

When you are looking for a "real Wiccan" (or some kind of source that can generally be considered reliable) you generally ought to look for someone who has been initiated, has been a Wiccan for a while (say 10 years or so), perhaps has a degree within their tradition (if Coven initiated), and is recognized by their fellow community members as knowledgable in their tradition.

Of course if you run into teenagers who just got into Wicca by watching The Craft, they are not going to know what they are talking about, will be doing it to rebel against their parents, and will probably try to convince you to do it too.

Wicca is not a religion that proselytizes, anyone who claims to be doing so in the name of their religion is NOT following the generally recognized (or hard line in the case of Alexandrian or Gardenarian Wicca) tenants of the religion.

In my opinion, Wicca is a REAL religion that helps people better themselves and the world around them by giving them a source of personal strength to draw upon.

And just for the record, no, I am not Wiccan.

Where did you come from?

What? I never trolled you. I was simply asking your opinion on it. When you made an opinion I didn't agree with, what did you expect me to do, just sit there? No. I debate it. And I'm not Wiccan, I'm agnostic.


:rolleyes:

you will notice that I didn't offer an opinion on the religion at all, just saying that any opinion I do have is probably biased.

Although when I question anything about it, all I get back is "you don't know anything" :rolleyes: why would I question something unless I actually had questions about it?


The only things I saw you question were the actions of Wiccans you have met, it seemed that you think these actions are typical. If you knew anything about Wiccans you would know otherwise.


I mean really I am not like Naliitr trying to pretend something to trap someone.

Show me evidence of Naliitr doing this.

uh......no you said "do research so you don't sound like a douche"

that's not "here is what my friend did"

Didn't I just say that that wasn't what my friend did, and I just added it for good measure?

I have a friend who is Wiccan (she's actually in her late 20's, and was my mom's friend first, but I stole her). She tells me about it, occasionally tries to get me to convert. But she understands I have my beliefs, she has hers. Yeah. So that's how I know a lot about it.
Well, no, my point being that there is hardly an orginization that decides the orthdoxy of various Wiccan covens or individuals, so saying that someone or something is true Wiccan without hearing a detailed desciption smacks of... well... wrongness.

Where did you come from?

Well I come from Texas. ;)

Are you asking how I found this thread? Well I was playing with my NationStates government and saw the thread so I thought I'd pop over and see if I could be helpful at all.

Hopefully I am. :)

The only things I saw you question were the actions of Wiccans you have met, it seemed that you think these actions are typical. If you knew anything about Wiccans you would know otherwise.
:rolleyes: I only know my personal experience, I said "this is my personal experience". I haven't seen much else.


Show me evidence of Naliitr doing this.
other than past experience?

he starts this thred right "what do you think of Wicca?" and when people say what they think, he says "no you are wrong, that's not Wicca"

he is asking for opinions and expecting facts.

you will notice that I didn't offer an opinion on the religion at all, just saying that any opinion I do have is probably biased.

Although when I question anything about it, all I get back is "you don't know anything" :rolleyes: why would I question something unless I actually had questions about it?

I mean really I am not like Naliitr trying to pretend something to trap someone.

I didn't say you didn't know anything about it, I simply said you probably couldn't tell the difference between fake Wiccans and real Wiccans, since you said that the only Wiccans you had seen were immature ones, which probably are too immature to look past the idea of Wicca popular culture has given us, kids rebelling against their parents, who probably just say they are something, which will piss off their parents enough to where they feel as though they don't need to actually practice is, those who are trying to fit in, who will just do what popular culture has taught us Wiccans do, and those trying to forcefully convert you, which Wicca CLEARLY states you aren't supposed to do.

Well, no, my point being that there is hardly an orginization that decides the orthdoxy of various Wiccan covens or individuals, so saying that someone or something is true Wiccan without hearing a detailed desciption smacks of... well... wrongness.

;)

:rolleyes: I only know my personal experience, I said "this is my personal experience". I haven't seen much else.



other than past experience?

he starts this thred right "what do you think of Wicca?" and when people say what they think, he says "no you are wrong, that's not Wicca"

he is asking for opinions and expecting facts.

Yes, I was expecting opinions. Then I saw opinions based off of false facts. Needless to say, I decided to debate them. Is there anything wrong with debating opinions based off of false facts?

I didn't say you didn't know anything about it, I simply said you probably couldn't tell the difference between fake Wiccans and real Wiccans, since you said that the only Wiccans you had seen were immature ones, which probably are too immature to look past the idea of Wicca popular culture has given us, kids rebelling against their parents, who probably just say they are something, which will piss off their parents enough to where they feel as though they don't need to actually practice is, those who are trying to fit in, who will just do what popular culture has taught us Wiccans do, and those trying to forcefully convert you, which Wicca CLEARLY states you aren't supposed to do.

and the people who I know who practice Wicca spit out the same stuff in the wiki article, which is why I am asking you personally, how you can define a "true Wiccan", you are the one putting qualifiers down, I just want to know what the criteria is in your mind.

Yes, I was expecting opinions. Then I saw opinions based off of false facts. Needless to say, I decided to debate them. Is there anything wrong with debating opinions based off of false facts?

my personal experience can't be considered a false fact.

Well I come from Texas. ;)

Are you asking how I found this thread? Well I was playing with my NationStates government and saw the thread so I thought I'd pop over and see if I could be helpful at all.

Hopefully I am. :)
Welcome to NS General and good first post (Yes, I know it's your second, but it's late over here. ;) ).

I did a research paper on Wicca for my final in English II last semester and I've read all of my copy of the Book of Shadows I used for my research. Wicca is just like any other religion. Not all of it is as peaceful as some may think though. There were spells for curses on your enemies and stuff like that in my BOS along with some good information on what Wiccans truly believe. But all in all, I would say your average Wiccan is the more peaceful and care free than your average Christian or Muslim.

Well, no, my point being that there is hardly an orginization that decides the orthdoxy of various Wiccan covens or individuals, so saying that someone or something is true Wiccan without hearing a detailed desciption smacks of... well... wrongness.

As far as I am concerned, she seems to be as mainstream (and I mean religiously, not pop-culturaly) Wiccan as possible. So as far as I can tell, what she says probably relates to most of Wicca.

I have a friend who is Wiccan (she's actually in her late 20's, and was my mom's friend first, but I stole her). She tells me about it, occasionally tries to get me to convert. But she understands I have my beliefs, she has hers. Yeah. So that's how I know a lot about it.
Sorry to go OT, but I thought you only had one friend by choice? And didn't you use to be atheist?
It's horseshit, like all religions.
Childish play-acting. Fine up till late teens, but grown, educated men and women should know better.
Essentially my sentiments.

Welcome to NS General and good first post (Yes, I know it's your second, but it's late over here. ;) ).

Why thank you!

So what? When we become adults, we suddenly have no more need for a secure place to be, no more need for the comforting thoughts that religion gives us?

People like cottonball softness, there-there-it'll-be-alright, the absence of reality's hard edges, and yes, sometimes we _do_ need it, need to believe comforting thoughts. But going through your adult life consistantly acting like a child, regressing back to childhood's certainties in the form of following made-up religions to _get_ this nice softness is... well, childish. It's just such a waste, man, a terrible waste of a mind and a life.

Sorry to go OT, but I thought you only had one friend by choice? And didn't you use to be atheist?


Essentially my sentiments.

How do you remeber the OT? God damnit... But yeah... A lot can change in SEVEN months. Now I'm agnostic, realizing that there is no way this universe could have simply appeared. Now I have more than one friend, and those are rather select.

the one wiccan ive ever really been acquainted with tried to convince me her dead brother was reincarnated as a firefly, and she kept the firefly for six months. Only thing is, I don't think fireflys can live six months. Anyways, that turned me off to Wicca.

my personal experience can't be considered a false fact.

It can be if you experienced falseness (Is that even a word?) while experiencing the, experience... Meh... ANYWAYS. Just because someone tells you something, and that's an experience of yours, does that necessarily mean that thing the person told you was true?

How do you remeber the OT? God damnit... But yeah... A lot can change in SEVEN months. Now I'm agnostic, realizing that there is no way this universe could have simply appeared. Now I have more than one friend, and those are rather select.
'the' OT? Doesn't it mean 'off-topic'?

As far as I am concerned, she seems to be as mainstream (and I mean religiously, not pop-culturaly) Wiccan as possible. So as far as I can tell, what she says probably relates to most of Wicca.
(I admit that my knowledge of the finer details of Wicca is shakey at best so please take this with a large rock of salt) It is my understanding that, small as it may be, Wicca has managed to fragment itself almost as badly as the various Christian denominations, with some broad overarching beliefs and then lots of variations when it comes to specifics.

In other words I'd have to ask for a definition of mainstream here.

It can be if you experienced falseness (Is that even a word?) while experiencing the, experience... Meh... ANYWAYS. Just because someone tells you something, and that's an experience of yours, does that necessarily mean that thing the person told you was true?

http://www.rit.edu/~cgs2794/files/pub/crappers/wtf.jpg

That made little to no sense.

It can be if you experienced falseness (Is that even a word?) while experiencing the, experience... Meh... ANYWAYS. Just because someone tells you something, and that's an experience of yours, does that necessarily mean that thing the person told you was true?

my personal experience is true, no matter what you think about it.

If I would have said "all Wiccans are...." that would have been false.

If I would have said "all the Wiccans I know say.........so, that means Wicca is stupid" that would have been a false assumption.

me saying "all the Wiccans I have met are..........so, my opinion is biased" is true.

'the' OT? Doesn't it mean 'off-topic'?

Oh, I thought you meant the 'original thread' I created on Wicca about seven months ago.

School time, so uhh... Yeah. No more comments from me until about 1:30. PST

School time, so uhh... Yeah. No more comments from me until about 1:30. PST

Oh darn. :rolleyes:

I did a research paper on Wicca for my final in English II last semester and I've read all of my copy of the Book of Shadows I used for my research. Wicca is just like any other religion. Not all of it is as peaceful as some may think though. There were spells for curses on your enemies and stuff like that in my BOS along with some good information on what Wiccans truly believe. But all in all, I would say your average Wiccan is the more peaceful and care free than your average Christian or Muslim.

When you say "Book of Shadows"... which book are you referring to? It is an unfortunate truth, but there are any number of 'Book of Shadows" books out there, and not all are recognised as 'valid' by more than a handful of people.

I'm curious as to why you even mention a "Book of Shadows"... Wicca doesn't require witch-craft.

Most "Book of Shadows" type texts do not contain any hexes at all, and those that do usually heavily emphasise the fact that such details are in there so the 'witch' can protect him/her self FROM hexes by others.

Where such data IS recorded, it is usually recorded in context, and with special note of the Wiccan principia... the idea that what you send out is returned three-fold, and the Golden Rule: an it harm none, do as thou wilt.

People like cottonball softness, there-there-it'll-be-alright, the absence of reality's hard edges, and yes, sometimes we _do_ need it, need to believe comforting thoughts. But going through your adult life consistantly acting like a child, regressing back to childhood's certainties in the form of following made-up religions to _get_ this nice softness is... well, childish. It's just such a waste, man, a terrible waste of a mind and a life.

You make such strong accusations... 'made up religion' (I don't see how you can refer to any one religion as more 'made up' than any other), and the assertion that religion is a way of avoiding reality.

Personally - being objective - I am inclined to agree that 'religion' is how people cope... a psychological mechanism.

The difference is - I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong... and, just maybe, there IS a god, or gods... and that - in such cases - my own disbelief would appear to be little more than a petulant rebellion.

the one wiccan ive ever really been acquainted with tried to convince me her dead brother was reincarnated as a firefly, and she kept the firefly for six months. Only thing is, I don't think fireflys can live six months. Anyways, that turned me off to Wicca.

And, just a few days ago, I read on the news about a priest drowning trying to prove he could recreate the Biblical miracle.

No one said that faith was logical... or that all adherents to any given faith would make good decisions about it.


On the other hand... maybe your friend was right. Just because it lays outside of your experience, or commonly-held knowledge... doesn't make it wrong.

Wicca has some things going for it. The believe in the Wiccan Rede - "love is the law, love under will, an you harm no one do what you will," and try to live by it. They believe in the three-fold law - that which you do comes back to you three-fold. Unlike the "established" religions, they actually make a real effort to practice what they preach.

But, like every other religion, they believe in magical thinking - if you do the ritual or prayer correctly, you'll get what you ask for. And like every other religion, if you don't get what you want, it's because you didn't have enough faith.

It has as much value as any other religion, and is certainly worth a look, but when you get down to it, religion is pretty useless.

My opinion on the matter is that Wicca is just another wasteful mythology, akin to all the other wasteful mythologies people dither away their lives with.

But, like every other religion, they believe in magical thinking - if you do the ritual or prayer correctly, you'll get what you ask for. And like every other religion, if you don't get what you want, it's because you didn't have enough faith.

Many Wiccans and other Pagans (that I know both personally and those I don't know quite so well) believe that in addition to doing the ritual or prayer you have to do the legwork in this world to help bring about whatever it is you desire. If, say, you desire a job yes, you are going to burn a green candle or do some other kind of job finding ritual or magic; but that it is also necessary to actually get dressed and go out to look for a job! It is very rare that God or the Gods are going to like you SO MUCH that They are just going to plop whatever it is you want right down in your lap. Especially in the Pagan/Wiccan belief, the Gods are not these all-benevolent entities that just want to do nice stuff for you.

Thus, if you don't get what you want, it's either because A)The deity you asked doesn't like you, you didn't honor them properly, or you didn't hold up your end of the agreement you made that said that they would find you a job, or B) You just sat on your rump and waited for it to fall in your lap, you didn't actually make any kind of attempt to help this along or to help yourself.

Just some food for thought.

People seem to like their furniture.

Beautiful Wicca furniture makes the patio a special setting with incredible views of the valley and sea.
http://www.aphroditeleisure.com/villaview.php?ref=151&rate=1300&sYearFrom=2005

Many Wiccans and other Pagans (that I know both personally and those I don't know quite so well) believe that in addition to doing the ritual or prayer you have to do the legwork in this world to help bring about whatever it is you desire. If, say, you desire a job yes, you are going to burn a green candle or do some other kind of job finding ritual or magic; but that it is also necessary to actually get dressed and go out to look for a job! It is very rare that God or the Gods are going to like you SO MUCH that They are just going to plop whatever it is you want right down in your lap. Especially in the Pagan/Wiccan belief, the Gods are not these all-benevolent entities that just want to do nice stuff for you.

Thus, if you don't get what you want, it's either because A)The deity you asked doesn't like you, you didn't honor them properly, or you didn't hold up your end of the agreement you made that said that they would find you a job, or B) You just sat on your rump and waited for it to fall in your lap, you didn't actually make any kind of attempt to help this along or to help yourself.

Just some food for thought.

Well, of course, as has been said in the coven I once belonged to "you can't win the lottery if you don't buy the ticket." And many of the Wiccans I know are sensible enough to know that things don't happen in a vacuum. But, that said, I've met many who think energy spent on ritual is enough. Or they think the three-fold law is going to "reward" them.

Well, of course, as has been said in the coven I once belonged to "you can't win the lottery if you don't buy the ticket." And many of the Wiccans I know are sensible enough to know that things don't happen in a vacuum. But, that said, I've met many who think energy spent on ritual is enough. Or they think the three-fold law is going to "reward" them.

Which is just more proof of the unfortunate fact that idiots are everywhere. :(

I am constantly amazed by how little my peers (in the Pagan community) know about the history of Paganism (and its holy days), the truth about "The Burning Times" and the logic and theory behind all the rituals they perform.

Ah well, cest la vie. All we can really do is lead by example and attempt to educate ourselves as best we can.

Which is just more proof of the unfortunate fact that idiots are everywhere. :(

I am constantly amazed by how little my peers (in the Pagan community) know about the history of Paganism (and its holy days), the truth about "The Burning Times" and the logic and theory behind all the rituals they perform.

Ah well, cest la vie. All we can really do is lead by example and attempt to educate ourselves as best we can.

The group I belonged to actually required us to finish a year long class prior to initiation. This covered history, ethics, theory, methods, etc. A reasonably sensible approach, especially compared to some who seem to think that simply declaring themselves to be Wiccan priests and priestesses (based on reading one book) is sufficient.

People seem to like their furniture.


http://www.aphroditeleisure.com/villaview.php?ref=151&rate=1300&sYearFrom=2005

When I visualize the word Wicca there is always this sort of Wicker theme involved.

When I visualize the word Wicca there is always this sort of Wicker theme involved.

As in the movie "The Wicker Man"

As in the movie "The Wicker Man"

I really liked the old version of that movie. I have yet to see the new one. I hope it's good.

I really liked the old version of that movie. I have yet to see the new one. I hope it's good.

I always did like Christopher Lee.

As a reconstructionist Hellenic pagan, I tend to view it in a somewhat lower light than traditional pagan beliefs (i.e. those constructed from actual historical and mythological sources) because too many of its adherents simply make up their own religion and try to dress it in pseudo-Celtic rituals. Even worse, a lot of adherents also have no real knowledge of the history or mythological basis of their beliefs and a lot of them are just doing it for shock value (i.e. teenage girls).

Now, Wicca adherents who do commit themselves to real study and practice of their beliefs, I have no problem with. Of course, we all know that the Hellenic polytheists are the best...plus we get a lot of cool myths to boot. ;)

Your Wicca is so strangely similar to our Santeria regarding certiain aspects...

I conclude Wicca is the same evil, and it should be cleansed with flame and steel.

As a reconstructionist Hellenic pagan...

Yay recons! ::adjusts her Irish Recon badge:: hehe.

Your Wicca is so strangely similar to our Santeria regarding certiain aspects...

I conclude Wicca is the same evil, and it should be cleansed with flame and steel.

A very succinct illustration of why we all can't just get along. :rolleyes:

Yay recons! ::adjusts her Irish Recon badge:: hehe.

Recons ftw. :cool:

A very succinct illustration of why we all can't just get along. :rolleyes:

Point.

It is just that regarding Santería is the only topic I'm not tolerant at all.

They should send them all to hell in advance, showing them the flames before they depart this world.

Just tell me what you think of it.

I think that it is a modern feel good faith with no real roots nor cohesiveness meaning that it is as valid as the oft praised FSM.

I've never met a wiccan who wasn't a passive-aggressive loser.

It seems to attract that sort of kid in high school, and an even worse sort once they get older, where a decent person would have grown out of it.

I also have a rather dim view of Wiccans, although its mostly due to the fact that %99 of the ones I met were idiots.
I knew one girl who was a 'wiccan' 'vampire'. Although as a vampire (she insisted she was of the Dracula type) she did not burst into flames in the sun, nor was she allergic to silver, garlic or holy items. She did wear about an inch of sunblock though, and apparently didnt wash it out because she had lovely quarter inch flakes of dandruff in her hair.
She would also attack anybody who used the word 'warlock' in her presence, this included a table of kids playing D&D in the library that got our entire group kicked out for a year.
Yes, we were one of those sad groups of kids who were too nice to bar any save the most annoying and bad-smelling kids from hanging around with us.

I knew one 'real' Wiccan, and she was nice enough. She didnt discuss her religion much unless you asked her about it, and she was a good person to get into a theological debate with. Once our English class evolved into a huge mutlifaceted religion arguement involving two Catholics, our Mormon teacher, a group of protestants, two native Americans and the Wiccan girl.
Our teacher was awsome, except for the rather lengthy essay on religion we had to write :P

Harmonia Mortus Redux;11645613']I also have a rather dim view of Wiccans, although its mostly due to the fact that %99 of the ones I met were idiots.

Unfortunately it's the stupid ones that are more likely to get attention (goes back to the whole 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil' theory). They're the ones who will walk up to you and say "Hi! Guess what! I'm a Wicca!" (incorrect usage was on purpose)

It is generally necessary to dig around a bit to find the "good" kind of Wiccan, unless of course you are priviliged enough to be introduced to one personally or to join an organization of Pagans that has a high enough percentage of this kind of "quality" Wiccan.

You make such strong accusations... 'made up religion' (I don't see how you can refer to any one religion as more 'made up' than any other), and the assertion that religion is a way of avoiding reality.

Personally - being objective - I am inclined to agree that 'religion' is how people cope... a psychological mechanism.

The difference is - I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong... and, just maybe, there IS a god, or gods... and that - in such cases - my own disbelief would appear to be little more than a petulant rebellion.

Religion is a combination of coping mechanism and agent of social regulation and social control, yes? After 1000s of years, we have the freedom to choose whether or not we buy into it, yes? We can do without it!

And then we go and make up some more. Super. What a great use of our time and talents, inventing new ways to limit ourselves.

If you're brought up to believe in a god/gods, that is one thing, you can't help that, but to take the time and effort to invent a new way to blind yourself, or indeed buy into it; it's such a shame.

Tell me what you think of it. Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees? Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it? Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

even a cult is a religion. It is a religion. i don't like it personally, however, if they want to continue they can.

As a semi-Pagan, semi-Muslim guy I don't see a problem.

If you're brought up to believe in a god/gods, that is one thing, you can't help that, but to take the time and effort to invent a new way to blind yourself, or indeed buy into it; it's such a shame.

I don't consider myself blinded by my pagan beliefs. If anything, it's given me a greater appreciation of nature and a more satisfying view of the world than I ever had when I was raised as a Catholic or during my time as an agostic. You might consider it "blinding" but I don't...the only people who are blind are those who refuse to look in to the subject altogether.

I don't consider myself blinded by my pagan beliefs. If anything, it's given me a greater appreciation of nature and a more satisfying view of the world than I ever had when I was raised as a Catholic or during my time as an agostic. You might consider it "blinding" but I don't...the only people who are blind are those who refuse to look in to the subject altogether.

If I get depressed about this and slink out at some point, I hope you'll excuse me.

What exactly are your pagan beliefs then, and how do they help you appreciate nature and so on? Educate me into your views for a moment :)

Eh I don't know much about Wicca, and I have met some Wiccans. I used to be friends with one, she was very nice.

I have a question for the Wiccans here. One day, she brought this basket to class, and I think it had like flowers and plants in it, and I also think it was around spring time. What holiday was she celebrating? Was it a spring festival?

Acients and pagen religion has intrested me espically the Norse religion. Too bad it's dead though.

I've never met a wiccan who wasn't a passive-aggressive loser.


I have. Lots of them.

Religion is a combination of coping mechanism and agent of social regulation and social control, yes? After 1000s of years, we have the freedom to choose whether or not we buy into it, yes? We can do without it!

And then we go and make up some more. Super. What a great use of our time and talents, inventing new ways to limit ourselves.

If you're brought up to believe in a god/gods, that is one thing, you can't help that, but to take the time and effort to invent a new way to blind yourself, or indeed buy into it; it's such a shame.

You might want to think about the origins of religion.

The only 'made up' one I can think of, off the top of my head, would have to be Scientology... because it started out as a pseudoscience bastard of psychology... and now claims 'church' status.

Christianity is rooted in Judaism, as is Islam.

Wicca is rooted in pantheistic traditions that stretch back considerably further than any of the modern religions. Maybe there is no 'unbroken' tradition being continued... although that IS debatable. But the fact remains, Wicca claims roots in traditions that stretch back tens of thousands of years.

The Venus of Willendorf may NOT be a Wiccan artifact... but she shares the same tradition... the same iconic significance. Whether Gardner 're-invented' lost traditions, or really WAS revealing old knowledge - he still spoke to traditions that DO exist, and have existed.

Do I need religion? No - I'm happy without.

Can I see argument for religion as psychological crutch? Yes, absolutely.

Does that mean religion is wrong, childish, or bad? No - because 'they' could be right... and I might be the 'wrong' one.

Your Wicca is so strangely similar to our Santeria regarding certiain aspects...

I conclude Wicca is the same evil, and it should be cleansed with flame and steel.

And tell me why you think Wicca is evil, and why it should be cleansed with flame and steel.

Your Wicca is so strangely similar to our Santeria regarding certiain aspects...

I conclude Wicca is the same evil, and it should be cleansed with flame and steel.

You're either crazy, joking or a troll.

Assuming the first, I say bring it on. I'm not a wiccan, but I'm an occultist, and I say it's people like you that should die. Horribly, slowly and painfully.

Assuming the second, you should really put "*sarcasm*" or a smiley - though it's still offensive.

Assuming the third, meh.

I think that it is a modern feel good faith with no real roots nor cohesiveness meaning that it is as valid as the oft praised FSM.

No roots? B.S., at least according to Gardenier. Apparently, Wicca is an age-old religion, older than Christianty. No roots my ass. And the difference between this and the Flying Spaghetti Monster is that everyone knows the FSM is just a joke. Not many people think this is just a joke. It's a perfectly valid religion.

I've never met a wiccan who wasn't a passive-aggressive loser.

It seems to attract that sort of kid in high school, and an even worse sort once they get older, where a decent person would have grown out of it.

But if you meet a person who isn't a passive-aggressive Wiccan, and who actually follow the Wiccan religion, they're rather good people.

You might want to think about the origins of religion.

The only 'made up' one I can think of, off the top of my head, would have to be Scientology... because it started out as a pseudoscience bastard of psychology... and now claims 'church' status.

Christianity is rooted in Judaism, as is Islam.

? But Judaism - like all others - is a made up religion, Christianity and Islam being offshoots and amalgamations with different cultural traditions. These things did not arrive fully formed, but were made up over successive generations and subsequently codified. That these things happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago doesn't alter the fact that they were made up, just that some have lasted a long time while others have died out; and some, god help us (as it were! :p) are still being made up now.

Humans make up religions to create or strengthen ingroup solidary, regulate that group, and aid control (to whatever extent) of the many by the few. Religion is also used as a form of coping strategy, and individual religions have also been responsible for charitable institutions, or used as instruments of social change even, and similar laudable acts. But that doesn't change their origin, pardon their crimes and misdemeanours, and it certainly doesn't excuse modern, well educated individuals voluntarily abdicating their freedom from the 'bad' elements inherent to religon to start new ones, forge new chains for people.

Harmonia Mortus Redux;11645613']I also have a rather dim view of Wiccans, although its mostly due to the fact that %99 of the ones I met were idiots.
I knew one girl who was a 'wiccan' 'vampire'. Although as a vampire (she insisted she was of the Dracula type) she did not burst into flames in the sun, nor was she allergic to silver, garlic or holy items. She did wear about an inch of sunblock though, and apparently didnt wash it out because she had lovely quarter inch flakes of dandruff in her hair.
She would also attack anybody who used the word 'warlock' in her presence, this included a table of kids playing D&D in the library that got our entire group kicked out for a year.
Yes, we were one of those sad groups of kids who were too nice to bar any save the most annoying and bad-smelling kids from hanging around with us.

I knew one 'real' Wiccan, and she was nice enough. She didnt discuss her religion much unless you asked her about it, and she was a good person to get into a theological debate with. Once our English class evolved into a huge mutlifaceted religion arguement involving two Catholics, our Mormon teacher, a group of protestants, two native Americans and the Wiccan girl.
Our teacher was awsome, except for the rather lengthy essay on religion we had to write :P

See, those are the kind I'm talking about. The one's that are ACTUAL Wiccans. Not the top one, who does things just because she thinks it's going to piss off her parents.

I consider it a vaugly sinister non-threat. Evil influences that have strayed so far from true evil that they can never return, but will still burn in hell. That said, many of them are physically attractive, and I'd shut up for a few months if I had a shot. :p

Religion is a combination of coping mechanism and agent of social regulation and social control, yes? After 1000s of years, we have the freedom to choose whether or not we buy into it, yes? We can do without it!

And then we go and make up some more. Super. What a great use of our time and talents, inventing new ways to limit ourselves.

If you're brought up to believe in a god/gods, that is one thing, you can't help that, but to take the time and effort to invent a new way to blind yourself, or indeed buy into it; it's such a shame.

We can do without it? Wrong. We need the kind of comfort religion brings us. Humanity CANNOT survive without it. It is IMPOSSIBLE for humanity to survive without the comfort that thinking there are higher powers looking out for us, that they are the cause of all things in the world, that it isn't the evils of man, brings us. And that besides, most religions are GREAT ways to make sure you stay on a moral and straight path. Without religion, most people feel no need for morals, and, well, voila. And believe me, the blind are the ones who won't see the things that make men insane.

I consider it a vaugly sinister non-threat. Evil influences that have strayed so far from true evil that they can never return, but will still burn in hell. That said, many of them are physically attractive, and I'd shut up for a few months if I had a shot. :p

Question asked again. How are they evil?

I don't consider myself blinded by my pagan beliefs. If anything, it's given me a greater appreciation of nature and a more satisfying view of the world than I ever had when I was raised as a Catholic or during my time as an agostic. You might consider it "blinding" but I don't...the only people who are blind are those who refuse to look in to the subject altogether.

Religion, is in a sense, somewhat blinding. It blinds you to some things, namely the select horrors going on in the world, and opens your eyes to other things, in Wicca namely the beauty of nature. (My eyes are already opened to that, so I really don't need Wicca for the purpose of that.)

Question asked again. How are they evil?

They're not Christian. Duh. :)

If I get depressed about this and slink out at some point, I hope you'll excuse me.

What exactly are your pagan beliefs then, and how do they help you appreciate nature and so on? Educate me into your views for a moment :)

Hellenic polytheism, with emphasis on Pan and Artemis along with nature spirits. Because of these deities' and spirits' role in maintaining the natural balance and their protection of the wild places, I feel it is necessary to work to avoid undue destruction of nature and to try and live in as sustainable a manner as possible. It's closely related to the ancient Greek culture itself; unlike the Roman and later European cultures, the Greeks appreciated and respected the natural world and the beauty of untamed wilds and didn't look down upon the farmers and herdsmen of the countryside (or the "pagani" in Latin).

It also teaches me to really look and see the beauty of nature all around me; I go walking in the woods a lot by my house and I can feel the sheer energy of life. Simply by sitting there and taking in that wild energy I know that the Gods are alive and working in this world and I think the sense of appreciation I feel is a gift from them. (paranormal encounters aside, like the Panic people have felt in the woods, especially if you don't give the forest proper respect)

Also, I accomodate some Eastern philosophy in to my belief system; the Taoist concept of "wu wei" or letting nature take its course features prominenently.

? But Judaism - like all others - is a made up religion, Christianity and Islam being offshoots and amalgamations with different cultural traditions. These things did not arrive fully formed, but were made up over successive generations and subsequently codified. That these things happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago doesn't alter the fact that they were made up, just that some have lasted a long time while others have died out; and some, god help us (as it were! :p) are still being made up now.
Nice back-peddle. ;)

? But Judaism - like all others - is a made up religion, Christianity and Islam being offshoots and amalgamations with different cultural traditions. These things did not arrive fully formed, but were made up over successive generations and subsequently codified. That these things happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago doesn't alter the fact that they were made up, just that some have lasted a long time while others have died out; and some, god help us (as it were! :p) are still being made up now.

Humans make up religions to create or strengthen ingroup solidary, regulate that group, and aid control (to whatever extent) of the many by the few. Religion is also used as a form of coping strategy, and individual religions have also been responsible for charitable institutions, or used as instruments of social change even, and similar laudable acts. But that doesn't change their origin, pardon their crimes and misdemeanours, and it certainly doesn't excuse modern, well educated individuals voluntarily abdicating their freedom from the 'bad' elements inherent to religon to start new ones, forge new chains for people.

Ok. I can't take it any more. SHUT UP. Stop saying these things are "made-up". THEY ARE NOT MADE-UP. Well, techincally they are. But also techincally, these people believe that the words they were saying or writing down were divinely ordered. They didn't just say "Hmm. I feel like making up something that will comfort people and give them moral rules to follow." And humans do not make religions to make solidarty, or strengthen the group, or become an oligarchy. They make them for COMFORT, and for MORAL guidance. These people, who "make up" religions, truly believe that they have divine guidance to guide people to the truth, not to control them. And I know PLENTY of well educated individuals (Mainly my science teachers) who ENJOY religion, and don't say that since they're educated they shouldn't use religion any more for comfort. Oh, and answer this question. What is "wrong" with religion, besides the fact that it may provide too much comfort, and may periodically start wars.

They're not Christian. Duh. :)

So apparently, everyone who doesn't believe that the Christian God is almighty is a true and utter sinner, and deserves to go to hell, and in life deserves to be, essentially really, bullied? Maybe you should consider this. Didn't Jesus say a few things along the lines of... "While these religions may not be the true religions, you shall not persecute them because of their beliefs." It's not the exact phrase, but it's close enough. And if you really consider these people to be "evil", then why don't you do another thing Jesus said, and "Turn the other cheek"?

? But Judaism - like all others - is a made up religion, Christianity and Islam being offshoots and amalgamations with different cultural traditions. These things did not arrive fully formed, but were made up over successive generations and subsequently codified. That these things happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago doesn't alter the fact that they were made up, just that some have lasted a long time while others have died out; and some, god help us (as it were! :p) are still being made up now.

Humans make up religions to create or strengthen ingroup solidary, regulate that group, and aid control (to whatever extent) of the many by the few. Religion is also used as a form of coping strategy, and individual religions have also been responsible for charitable institutions, or used as instruments of social change even, and similar laudable acts. But that doesn't change their origin, pardon their crimes and misdemeanours, and it certainly doesn't excuse modern, well educated individuals voluntarily abdicating their freedom from the 'bad' elements inherent to religon to start new ones, forge new chains for people.

It's a good theory.

I think it eminently likely, indeed. But that doesn't make it TRUE.

Just because I can't PROVE 'god' is real... doesn't mean he isn't, yes?


Religions evolve... no argument. Islam and Christianity both derive from Judaism, which, in turn, seems heavily influenced by Babylonian religion, which, one assumes, was influenced by some earlier duality, etc. etc. and so forth... possibly, as long as there have been creatures capable of doing that kind of reasoning.

But - does this mean they are 'made up'? We can't PROVE it. We can be as skeptical as we like, but - if we once step over that line into claiming we KNOW, we are in exactly the same arena of 'faith' as the 'faithful'.

It also teaches me to really look and see the beauty of nature all around me; I go walking in the woods a lot by my house and I can feel the sheer energy of life. Simply by sitting there and taking in that wild energy I know that the Gods are alive and working in this world and I think the sense of appreciation I feel is a gift from them. (paranormal encounters aside, like the Panic people have felt in the woods, especially if you don't give the forest proper respect)

There is definetly some kind of energy in pure nature. Not that "fake" nature you see in parks, where they just planted it for aesthetic value, but in REAL nature, where the trees decided to be planted, where the animals decide to live. There is certainly an energy in those places.

Religion, is in a sense, somewhat blinding. It blinds you to some things, namely the select horrors going on in the world, and opens your eyes to other things, in Wicca namely the beauty of nature. (My eyes are already opened to that, so I really don't need Wicca for the purpose of that.)

It only blinds you if you try to shut out reality; too many people use religion to shelter themselves from the world. I don't, and my religion doesn't have an all-powerful God who is (supposedly) perfect and totally good. Instead, the world is practical; sometimes, an evil action my be necessary to achieve a greater good, and sometimes a good action can lead to evil down the road. It's my goal to make decisions that maximize the good, but I'm also wary of the fact that there are people who will try and harm/decieve/cheat me and that there is true evil in this world.

So apparently, everyone who doesn't believe that the Christian God is almighty is a true and utter sinner, and deserves to go to hell, and in life deserves to be, essentially really, bullied? Maybe you should consider this. Didn't Jesus say a few things along the lines of... "While these religions may not be the true religions, you shall not persecute them because of their beliefs." It's not the exact phrase, but it's close enough. And if you really consider these people to be "evil", then why don't you do another thing Jesus said, and "Turn the other cheek"?

I never said they should be destroyed, or even prevented from teaching and practicing their faith. I simply stated that in my opinion their religion is vaugly sinister. The people themselves are not evil, but misguided. Anyway, I believe that as long as you aren't infringing on another's rights, you should be able to do whatever you want. Let them believe what they believe, who knows, perhaps God has engineered all the religions to be a cohesive fighting force against some unseen evil. And anyway, thins thread asked my opinion, I simply gave it. If there is something wrong with that, I shall leave.

It only blinds you if you try to shut out reality; too many people use religion to shelter themselves from the world. I don't, and my religion doesn't have an all-powerful God who is (supposedly) perfect and totally good. Instead, the world is practical; sometimes, an evil action my be necessary to achieve a greater good, and sometimes a good action can lead to evil down the road. It's my goal to make decisions that maximize the good, but I'm also wary of the fact that there are people who will try and harm/decieve/cheat me and that there is true evil in this world.

Do your religious beliefs affect the way in which you conceive "the good"?

There is definetly some kind of energy in pure nature. Not that "fake" nature you see in parks, where they just planted it for aesthetic value, but in REAL nature, where the trees decided to be planted, where the animals decide to live. There is certainly an energy in those places.

The wild places...generally, the older and/or more untouched the forest is the stronger that feeling is. When you enter the deepest parts of those woods, where there are he huge trees, thick vegetation in the glades, the rotting logs covered with moss and the omnipresent sounds of living things, it's pretty damn powerful. You really get the feeling that you've entered a place that human civilization is not needed...and I think it really depends on your respect towards nature if that feeling is exhilarating or terrifying.

I never said they should be destroyed, or even prevented from teaching and practicing their faith. I simply stated that in my opinion their religion is vaugly sinister. The people themselves are not evil, but misguided. Anyway, I believe that as long as you aren't infringing on another's rights, you should be able to do whatever you want. Let them believe what they believe, who knows, perhaps God has engineered all the religions to be a cohesive fighting force against some unseen evil. And anyway, thins thread asked my opinion, I simply gave it. If there is something wrong with that, I shall leave.

No no no. I was simply debating the opinion. Never said it was wrong. But that last statement about God engineering religions is interesting. I will have to send that up to my imagination laboratory for my next novel. So you're saying that the religion is evil, not the people? Well, besides the fact that it doesn't believe in the Christian God, is there anything besides that that is wrong with the religion?

Do your religious beliefs affect the way in which you conceive "the good"?

Everyone's does. It's impossible to be in ANY religion, including athiesm and agnosticism, without getting a degree of bias from the religion.

The wild places...generally, the older and/or more untouched the forest is the stronger that feeling is. When you enter the deepest parts of those woods, where there are he huge trees, thick vegetation in the glades, the rotting logs covered with moss and the omnipresent sounds of living things, it's pretty damn powerful.

Too bad I don't have enough free time or money to go to those kinds of places.

Everyone's does.

I don't think so. I have always formulated morality independent of religion; when religion has conflicted with my morality, I have always sided with my moral positions, and in fact that was a major basis for my ultimate break with theism.

It's impossible to be in ANY religion, including athiesm and agnosticism, without getting a degree of bias towards people from the religion.

The only people I am biased against on the basis of religious beliefs are those who use said religious beliefs to justify bigotry against others.

I don't think so. I have always formulated morality independent of religion; when religion has conflicted with my morality, I have always sided with my moral positions, and in fact that was a major basis for my ultimate break with theism.



The only people I am biased against on the basis of religious beliefs are those who use said religious beliefs to justify bigotry against others.

Read my edit. I think it makes the second part a little more understandable.

Do your religious beliefs affect the way in which you conceive "the good"?

It depends. I think that humanity is capable of developing morals and achieving a sense of right and wrong without divine intervention; in Greece, from where I draw inspiration, there was no Moses to give mankind 10 written commandments for good behavior, it was cultivated and developed by humans over generations of thought and logical observation.

As a result, they (and I) have cultivated values that would be the basis for others; personal moderation and hospitality towards others are a natural bridge to acceptance of others' beliefs, and moderation prevents us from being consumed by greed and harming others to satisfy our desires.

Also, I think the Gods are really above human concepts of good and evil; they have their own ends and desires, and they can't really be imagined by humans because they exist on a different level than us.

Well, besides the fact that it doesn't believe in the Christian God, is there anything besides that that is wrong with the religion?

I don't really know enough about it to say one way or another. In my opinion any "spells" that would affect a human in anyway would be evil, but I have no idea how many *If any* groups actually practice that.

Too bad I don't have enough free time or money to go to those kinds of places.

I'm lucky enough to have them close by, and there are plenty of places by my college.

I don't really know enough about it to say one way or another. In my opinion any "spells" that would affect a human in anyway would be evil, but I have no idea how many *If any* groups actually practice that.

But what if it simply affects the self, and not other humans, and do it in a positive way, like most real Wiccan "spells" (if you can even call them that) do?

But what if it simply affects the self, and not other humans, and do it in a positive way, like most real Wiccan "spells" (if you can even call them that) do?

Asking the diety(s) to give you an unfair advantage, possibly up to not preventing harm from coming to others, is wrong.

Asking the diety(s) to give you an unfair advantage, possibly up to not preventing harm from coming to others, is wrong.

But isn't that what Christians have a tendency to do? Pray to God for good things to happen to them? Or others? (Note that many Wiccan spells [I think] do actually affect others, once again only positively.)

EDIT: And don't bitch at me for saying before that most Wiccan spells don't affect others. I was disoriented at the time. Or I may be right now. Who knows.

But isn't that what Christians have a tendency to do? Pray to God for good things to happen to them? Or others? (Note that many Wiccan spells [I think] do actually affect others, once again only positively.)

I never said most Christians were good, or even not misguided. I'm actually unsure of what my beliefs really are at the moment, I haven't prayed for myself or my family for a long while, and the last time I asked God for something was when Katrina was offshore... As long as there aren't selfish motives behind it, and you're not trying to influence the person, and the person consents to be... erm... blessed? I suppose it's fine. (Well, ok, any reference to one of a group's dieties as "The horned one" freaks me out, but that's neither here nor there)

I never said most Christians were good, or even not misguided. I'm actually unsure of what my beliefs really are at the moment, I haven't prayed for myself or my family for a long while, and the last time I asked God for something was when Katrina was offshore... As long as there aren't selfish motives behind it, and you're not trying to influence the person, and the person consents to be... erm... blessed? I suppose it's fine. (Well, ok, any reference to one of a group's dieties as "The horned one" freaks me out, but that's neither here nor there)

I have to agree with you on the last part. My Christian upbringings have taught me, and I still agree with them on this, that most any "god" which is horned has a tendency to be evil. Note I said "MOST".

I never said most Christians were good, or even not misguided. I'm actually unsure of what my beliefs really are at the moment, I haven't prayed for myself or my family for a long while, and the last time I asked God for something was when Katrina was offshore... As long as there aren't selfish motives behind it, and you're not trying to influence the person, and the person consents to be... erm... blessed? I suppose it's fine. (Well, ok, any reference to one of a group's dieties as "The horned one" freaks me out, but that's neither here nor there)

You realise, of course, that 'satan' wasn't considered 'horned' UNTIL the Judeo-Christian church started interfacing with pagan religions?

If you look at Egyptian religion, horns signify fertility, not any kind of 'evil' significance.

As a matter of amusement... you might like to look at some medieval art, some time.... Biblical characters were occassionally painted with horns to show how holy they were... a misunderstanding over the translation of a word. (I beleive it was something to do with the word for 'horns' being similar to the word for 'light' shining, or some such... so, biblical characters (like Moses) that are described as 'shining', got painted with horns).

You realise, of course, that 'satan' wasn't considered 'horned' UNTIL the Judeo-Christian church started interfacing with pagan religions?

If you look at Egyptian religion, horns signify fertility, not any kind of 'evil' significance.
Fertility=lust, lust=bad. Anyway, it's just ingrained in me. I do realise that, odds are, lucifer appears as the most beutiful thing a human can behold, after all, he was God's right hand man in the beginning. And it's kinda hard to tempt someone if you're ugly.

Fertility=lust, lust=bad. Anyway, it's just ingrained in me. I do realise that, odds are, lucifer appears as the most beutiful thing a human can behold, after all, he was God's right hand man in the beginning. And it's kinda hard to tempt someone if you're ugly.

Fertility doesn't always mean lust. Sometimes it means love. I mean, I doubt you would want a child with someone you just lust after. You would perfer to have a child with someone you love.

Fertility=lust, lust=bad. Anyway, it's just ingrained in me. I do realise that, odds are, lucifer appears as the most beutiful thing a human can behold, after all, he was God's right hand man in the beginning. And it's kinda hard to tempt someone if you're ugly.

Fairytale version of the story.

Show me the scripture where it says that Lucifer was, in any way, connected to any of the 'satans'. Read the book of Job... his job isn't to 'tempt' it is to set the Trial. 'Satan' is the rank of the heavenly choir that sits for the prosecution of man, in the heavenly courts... the enemy of man, and the servant of The One God.

Unfortunately, it also means 'any adversary' in common parlance.

As for 'fertility.... bad', perhaps you should bear in mind that God's first ever words to mankind are to screw, and he doesn't even mention marriage until a chapter later.

Fertility doesn't always mean lust. Sometimes it means love. I mean, I doubt you would want a child with someone you just lust after. You would perfer to have a child with someone you love.

You're assuming said person wants to raise the child. And anyway, I'm still a little fuzzy, I got beaned in the head with a dodgeball today, and I just came home from a baptist school, I'm still reseting the anti-propaganda filter. It gets jammed up.;)

Fairytale version of the story.

Show me the scripture where it says that Lucifer was, in any way, connected to any of the 'satans'. Read the book of Job... his job isn't to 'tempt' it is to set the Trial. 'Satan' is the rank of the heavenly choir that sits for the prosecution of man, in the heavenly courts... the enemy of man, and the servant of The One God.

Unfortunately, it also means 'any adversary' in common parlance.

As for 'fertility.... bad', perhaps you should bear in mind that God's first ever words to mankind are to screw, and he doesn't even mention marriage until a chapter later.

After the original sin. Adam screwed it all up remember? Anyway, I am in no way a theologian. Only a simple Anarchist who has accepted Jesus as his savior and owns/occasionally reads a Bible.

After the original sin. Adam screwed it all up remember? Anyway, I am in no way a theologian. Only a simple Anarchist who has accepted Jesus as his savior and owns/occasionally reads a Bible.

Actually - that was a 'test' Adam couldn't pass. The results were fixed long before the 'fall from grace'. So - no one 'screwed it up'.. it all went according to Plan.

The whole idea of Original Sin is ridiculous, anyway. The text is quite clear that the punishments for the sin have already been set and met. No contrition is needed, because our 'pain in childbearing' etc, is a punishment on the original two, not on us.

After the original sin. Adam screwed it all up remember? Anyway, I am in no way a theologian. Only a simple Anarchist who has accepted Jesus as his savior and owns/occasionally reads a Bible.

It's debatable who screwed it up. Adam ate the fruit, but he got it from Eve, she was tempted by the snake. And let's not forget, God created the tree and the snake.

It's debatable who screwed it up. Adam ate the fruit, but he got it from Eve, she was tempted by the snake. And let's not forget, God created the tree and the snake.

And failed to mention the snake. That it could talk. That it even existed. How would Adam or Eve even know about the concept of 'lying' or 'sinning' BEFORE they ate the fruit of "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"?

Worth noting, also... God warned Adam. Not Eve.

Worth noting further, the serpent doesn't lie.

Right... Look, I havn't studied Christianity. My opinion as an unwashed layman was asked, I gave it...

And failed to mention the snake. That it could talk. That it even existed. How would Adam or Eve even know about the concept of 'lying' or 'sinning' BEFORE they ate the fruit of "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"?

Worth noting, also... God warned Adam. Not Eve.

Worth noting further, the serpent doesn't lie.

Indeed. I haven't studied it, but I've heard(mainly in threads here) that Genisis is full of 'plot holes'. Things like different chapters having different creation stories.

Fertility=lust, lust=bad. Anyway, it's just ingrained in me. I do realise that, odds are, lucifer appears as the most beutiful thing a human can behold, after all, he was God's right hand man in the beginning. And it's kinda hard to tempt someone if you're ugly.

Lust really isn't bad; human nature pretty much guarantees that a man is going to look at women who are attractive (or men, if that's your sexuality) and fantasize about them sexually. That's a perfectly healthy and normal activity, and shouldn't be condemned unless it actually poses a harm to others, just like masturbation.

There's nothing wrong with that unless you try and force a sexual encounter with the object of desire; there's a difference between fantasy and reality that has to be upheld. Sexual desire is healthy, but sexual desire that harms others is not healthy and should be condemned and punished. It's like premarital sex; I have no problem with sex in a non-marriage relationship as long as both partners consent and know the risks and responsibilities of their actions.

It's a good theory.

I think it eminently likely, indeed. But that doesn't make it TRUE.

Just because I can't PROVE 'god' is real... doesn't mean he isn't, yes?

Religions evolve... no argument. Islam and Christianity both derive from Judaism, which, in turn, seems heavily influenced by Babylonian religion, which, one assumes, was influenced by some earlier duality, etc. etc. and so forth... possibly, as long as there have been creatures capable of doing that kind of reasoning.

But - does this mean they are 'made up'? We can't PROVE it. We can be as skeptical as we like, but - if we once step over that line into claiming we KNOW, we are in exactly the same arena of 'faith' as the 'faithful'.

But I think you can demonstrate the evolution - as it were - of religions, of their themes and purposes, and show that they derive from clever apes' cultures and increasingly complex groups' (and the increasingly complex individuals within those groups) need for organisation.

The question is, does this effectively deny any divine spark in a _particular_, individual religion? That in effect, you can show the forces that shaped a given religion, and that these were earthly forces - human thought, interaction and intervention, cultural mores, confict, climate, whatever. That puts the divine spark back a religious 'generation', and so you investigate that one, etc etc. Until, eventually, you get to the hominids (further back?) that first had created a proto-religion; further back, and it's a cruder system of regulation, control, and comfort - and there would be no discontinuity, no god that needs to be invoked to explain this switch, but rather a debate on the adaptive advantages of a proto-religion system(s? did religion combine disparate systems into one, was that the advantage?) of comfort, control, and regulation over earlier and contemporary systems.

I suspect that it's a house of cards with no bottom - it only stands up if you don't look at the bottom of the structure, and see the careful castle is in fact resting on nothing. There are massive gaps in the 'knowledge record' (and we'd need to go back beyond even our prehistory, back to before homo sapiens sapiens, to _know_ this) precluding this approach at present, but I think the principle is sound - that if you had that perfect knowledge, and if it was indeed the way I posited above, you could 'know', you could prove it.

Of course, you may think this knowledge might not 'effectively deny any divine spark in a particular religion'. What would, in that case? Or is it genuinely impossible to prove, however much we know about how and why religion exists? Why?

My encounters with Wicca are limited to a close friend and wikipedia.

The close friend does not, as far as I can tell, follow the "main" tradition. She learns from someone she refers to as a Guru, and is quite at home in the modern world, so I don't think it's "hardline" or "traditional" wicca she follows.
(I haven't dared ask her much, religion still is a touch subject, as this thread once more proves)

The central dogma of "ain't no harm done, do as thou willst" (foregoing the double negation ;)) appeals to me.
I also support the "threefold law", as I believe being nice to people and the world in general invokes good feelings towards you in people, thereby "returning" what you seed. (Of course, it works the other way around to: being an asshole makes you hated, being hated often yields bad results).

I deem Wicca an acceptable set of norms to live by, as they promote positive behaviour to yourself, others and the world.
Needless to say, I experience positive behaviour towards one to be a good thing.
I also understand Wicca is quite open-minded, and allows a great deal of freedom towards other religions.
Openmindedness allows other people to be themselves (instead of forcing them to adapt), which I also think is a good thing.

(The two above statements also applies to, among others, Islam and Christianity, as far as I understand. This makes those acceptable religions too.
(foregoing the Medieval crusaders, the Spanish Inquisition and Extremist suicide bombers, these deviate from the main-stream belief).)


As for the "made-up" disscusion:
Currently, there is no method acceptable to all parties in the world (among others: believers, skeptics and scientists) to prove or disprove the existance of a higher entity that could or could not have "sparked" religion.
Until such a method is found, I think it is safe to assume that no party will admit to the other, and a discussion is therefore pointless.

an illustration
"God exists, the bible says so",
"My book says harry potter exists too, I want scientific proof!"
"Have you not heard of the miraculous healings at Lourdes? There's your proof"
"There was never any documented case"
"The vatican has records"
"The vatican is biased"
...
Need I continue?
No? Then please be the smart persons you are, and stop as well.

May I suggest a concensus?
- Religion changes over the years. We have seen this even in our short well-documented Modern era, and, albeit lesser-documented, also in the Classical Age. It is safe to assume that religions have changed before that.
Until we invent time travelling camera's, we will not know how this change went, so we cannot tell if a "divine spark" started it all or not.
- Current religions have their uses in the current times, whether they do or do not stem from divine inspiration. Let's appreciate religion for what it is now, foregoing the discussion where it came from.
for comparison:
It's not who your parents were, it's about what you contribute to the world.

Eh I don't know much about Wicca, and I have met some Wiccans. I used to be friends with one, she was very nice.

I have a question for the Wiccans here. One day, she brought this basket to class, and I think it had like flowers and plants in it, and I also think it was around spring time. What holiday was she celebrating? Was it a spring festival?

Acients and pagen religion has intrested me espically the Norse religion. Too bad it's dead though.

She was probably celebrating Ostara, was it near Easter?

You're actually in luck; there is a revival of Nordic Paganism, it's called Asatru. You might want to look into it (wikipedia has a pretty good article).

You're actually in luck; there is a revival of Nordic Paganism, it's called Asatru. You might want to look into it (wikipedia has a pretty good article).

That's the best place to start, in my opinon. Wikipedians usually do a good job both in the article and providing good links for further information.

Otherwise, you might run the risk of finding the perverted forms of the religion that encourage things like racism or Nazism; obviously, they are in complete contradiction with what that belief system stands for and are nothing better than white supremacists and neo-Nazis in any other religion.

And the old Gods aren't dead...it's just that no one in our world pays attention to them anymore. However, those that do will find a quite interesting change in their worldview and they will see the Gods in action. I know I did... ;)

Fertility=lust, lust=bad. Anyway, it's just ingrained in me. I do realise that, odds are, lucifer appears as the most beutiful thing a human can behold, after all, he was God's right hand man in the beginning. And it's kinda hard to tempt someone if you're ugly.

Unrestrained lust, selfish lust, lust without consideration for your partner, is bad. But lust itself - I always thought it was kind of fun. You need to be considerate, thoughtful and caring, but jeez, life without lust would be dull. And I've been tempted by some pretty homely men - who just happened to be kind, intelligent, fun, humorous, etc.

Unrestrained lust, selfish lust, lust without consideration for your partner, is bad. But lust itself - I always thought it was kind of fun. You need to be considerate, thoughtful and caring, but jeez, life without lust would be dull. And I've been tempted by some pretty homely men - who just happened to be kind, intelligent, fun, humorous, etc.

That's true; human nature is human nature, and people are going to get horny whey they see something they are attracted too. As long as your desire is kept under control and only expressed in a consentual manner, there's nothing wrong with it. It only becomes a problem when others are harmed or their feelings ignored in order to satisfy your desires...selfishness and disregard for your partner is what makes it wrong.

Everything in moderation (even moderation...we need to let loose once in a while); we should be willing to satisfy our desires but not at the expense of our health or our relationships with others.

That's true; human nature is human nature, and people are going to get horny whey they see something they are attracted too. As long as your desire is kept under control and only expressed in a consentual manner, there's nothing wrong with it. It only becomes a problem when others are harmed or their feelings ignored in order to satisfy your desires...selfishness and disregard for your partner is what makes it wrong.

Everything in moderation (even moderation...we need to let loose once in a while); we should be willing to satisfy our desires but not at the expense of our health or our relationships with others.

... God I love this forum, after being told that "he who covets a woman has already commited adultry in his heart" and that I've broken every other rule by breaking that one enough times it starts to sink in....

Tell me what you think of it.

It's the same as any other religion. Nothing more than an attempt by the individual to abstract away his or her personal and inescapable freedom (and attendant responsibility) by pretending to be subject to forces "greater" than one's own self. This is essentially the same as what Sartre called "bad faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_%28existentialism%29)."

Tell me what you think of it. Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees? Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it? Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

in my opinion..which is decidedly naive on the subject,i can only base an opinion on what i have seen or heard firsthand.
and that is obviously thin on solid information.

it may or may not have solid foundations,as any other so called religion would/does.

that said,i have a friend(a women)who is not content with her life or marriage.she is a very sweet and decent person,but unhappy or un fullfilled,or both.
she has taken to it with a vengeance,and if it makes her happy,then who am i to cast judgement.
then again,is not that the raison d'etre of all religions(sp)

i also go thru a town,that survives on all things out of the norm.it is brimming with rich yuppies(on the weekend) that are like moths to a candle to the allure of something...that gives their lives meaning.
also mixed in with the dissatisfied yuppie women,are dissafected young girls(mostly goth) that are also searching for something to give them ...happiness?

as i said,my knowledge is lean on the subject,but my observations are real.
i see rich unhappy or unfullfilled women or dissafected young goth types that seem to be attracted to it.
if it helps them..i see no problem(other then they should find solace in themselves)but that is just what i see.
maybe it gives some a sense of power and control over their lives?

my ex wife always was interested in it..so maybe that shades my observations..but she was a very decent and caring women...yet very hurt(unspeakably)at a young age and seemed very drawn to it,still is.
who am i to say what helps someone(hell i love my beer)but i cant help but think she was searching for something to give her a sense of strength or belonging.
i personally think she needs to deal with her demons and not try to find a quick way to empowerment.(as i love her till the end)and think she is putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
that is not to say i think all seek wicca out as a means to empowerment or to hide from their own feelings of weakness or helplessness...just saying that is my limited observations.

i often think of the deeper meaning of being part of the earth,rather then the heavens..so i will never discount ones beliefs or feelings.
for all i know,they may be more at peace with life and themselves then i will ever be.

i will say i am a skeptic,and think one should look within to solve one's problems rather then look outward.

but in the words of sheryl crowe..."if it makes you happy"

Fertility=lust, lust=bad. Anyway, it's just ingrained in me.


Fuck me, did someone excise the Song of Solomon from the Bible you were raised on or something?

Fuck me, did someone excise the Song of Solomon from the Bible you were raised on or something?

lol
i was a catholic alter boy....boy yhey made me hate myself and my sexuality..but they meant well i suppose.

as to the wiccan thing...
aint no different then any other religion..whatever floats your boat i guess.

I think it's rubbish, like every religion. However, they have every right to practise it.

It's a religion, and like most others proscribes peace, but its followers, like any other, may not heed that directive. Objectively it's no more right or wrong than any other religion, but of all organized religions I know, it best matches my beliefs.

And the old Gods aren't dead...it's just that no one in our world pays attention to them anymore. However, those that do will find a quite interesting change in their worldview and they will see the Gods in action. I know I did... ;)

Thanks for explaining earlier your viewpoint on this, btw - sorry I never made time to acknowedge it sooner, after I asked about it :(

It's a religion, and like most others proscribes peace, but its followers, like any other, may not heed that directive. Objectively it's no more right or wrong than any other religion, but of all organized religions I know, it best matches my beliefs.

You'd be suprised how many real Wiccans are. They're probably some of the most peaceful people you'll meet, just behind Buddhists.

You're either crazy, joking or a troll.

Assuming the first, I say bring it on. I'm not a wiccan, but I'm an occultist, and I say it's people like you that should die. Horribly, slowly and painfully.

Reading too much Lovecraft? Iä, Iä?

Or too much Anne Rice?

Occultist? Yeah, you should be, I bet you "occult" yourself in a basement or a cellar.

Assuming the second, you should really put "*sarcasm*" or a smiley - though it's still offensive.

Assuming the third, meh.

I wasn't being sarcastic. If you found it offensive, I'm sorry for you. Trying to abuse others, (although the Wiccan cult lacks the endless desire for filthy money) is also a crime. I would like to see most "occultists" banned from spreading their lies and perhaps imprisoned for their crimes.

Thanks for explaining earlier your viewpoint on this, btw - sorry I never made time to acknowedge it sooner, after I asked about it :(

I'm always glad to inform people who are interested about my beliefs.

Reading too much Lovecraft? Iä, Iä?

Or too much Anne Rice?

Occultist? Yeah, you should be, I bet you "occult" yourself in a basement or a cellar.



I wasn't being sarcastic. If you found it offensive, I'm sorry for you. Trying to abuse others, (although the Wiccan cult lacks the endless desire for filthy money) is also a crime. I would like to see most "occultists" banned from spreading their lies and perhaps imprisoned for their crimes.

That whole "occult" yourself in a basement is nothing short of a flame.

Secondly, Wiccans do not, I repeat, do NOT abuse, or even try to, abuse others. And now you're saying people should be imprisoned for holding a religious belief? And that their religious beliefs should be BANNED? You, my good sir, obviously have NO religious tolerance.

No roots? B.S., at least according to Gardenier. Apparently, Wicca is an age-old religion, older than Christianty. No roots my ass.

Do you mean Gardner?
One guy spouting off that he's in an ancient religion doesn't mean much, especially since his claims can't be supported.

Wicca is a hodge podge of various pagan thoughts and practices from disparate sources with no cohesiveness. It's a 20th century religion commandeering ancient myths.

Do you mean Gardner?
One guy spouting off that he's in an ancient religion doesn't mean much, especially since his claims can't be supported.

Wicca is a hodge podge of various pagan thoughts and practices from disparate sources with no cohesiveness. It's a 20th century religion commandeering ancient myths.

One might just as well say that Christianity is a 1st century religion commandeering local customs (a sacred meal, a dying god who rises after death, miracles, etc).

he starts this thred right "what do you think of Wicca?" and when people say what they think, he says "no you are wrong, that's not Wicca"

he is asking for opinions and expecting facts.

Perhaps he's asking for oppinions and correcting erronious ones . . .

One might just as well say that Christianity is a 1st century religion commandeering local customs (a sacred meal, a dying god who rises after death, miracles, etc).

Possibly, but it is more accurately a sect of Judaism that broke off and on it's way to power absorbed elements from the cultures it dominated.

But then, the OP didn't ask about Chritianity.

I don't really know enough about it to say one way or another. In my opinion any "spells" that would affect a human in anyway would be evil, but I have no idea how many *If any* groups actually practice that.

Including healing spells?

Reading too much Lovecraft? Iä, Iä?

Or too much Anne Rice?

Occultist? Yeah, you should be, I bet you "occult" yourself in a basement or a cellar.



I wasn't being sarcastic. If you found it offensive, I'm sorry for you. Trying to abuse others, (although the Wiccan cult lacks the endless desire for filthy money) is also a crime. I would like to see most "occultists" banned from spreading their lies and perhaps imprisoned for their crimes.

Crazy it is then. So how exactly do Wiccans (in general not the few nuts you find in any religion) try to abuse others?

That whole "occult" yourself in a basement is nothing short of a flame.

Secondly, Wiccans do not, I repeat, do NOT abuse, or even try to, abuse others. And now you're saying people should be imprisoned for holding a religious belief? And that their religious beliefs should be BANNED? You, my good sir, obviously have NO religious tolerance.

No, it is nothing short of an extreme disbelief in the abilities of such called "occultists".

If your cult, be called wiccan, scientology, Wabba Wabba, islamism, cristianity, Jedi or Shumba Wamba, do not abuse or otherwise exploit others, then you shouldn't be affected by my statements. People shouldn't be imprisoned for holding a religious belief. They should be imprisoned if such beliefs are used to abuse, manipulate and exploit others, and such beliefs should be banned.

I, sire, do not answer to the title of "sir".

I have no criminal tolerance. I have a good deal of religious tolerance, although.

She was probably celebrating Ostara, was it near Easter?

You're actually in luck; there is a revival of Nordic Paganism, it's called Asatru. You might want to look into it (wikipedia has a pretty good article).

I don't know if it was around easter. All I know was that she had a basket (like an easter basket) with flowers, and it was spring time. So it probably was Ostara. As for Asatru, yea I've been reading up on it, it seems intresting.

I don't know if it was around easter. All I know was that she had a basket (like an easter basket) with flowers, and it was spring time. So it probably was Ostara. As for Asatru, yea I've been reading up on it, it seems intresting.

"The English and German names, 'Easter' and 'Ostern', are not etymologically derived from Pesach and are instead related to ancient names for the month of April, Eostremonat and Ostaramanoth respectively. According to the 8th century Christian monk and historian Bede, this month was dedicated to the pagan fertility goddess Eostre. The Easter Bunny is often identified as a remnant of this fertility festival, although there is no evidence of any link." Wiki, of course.

"The English and German names, 'Easter' and 'Ostern', are not etymologically derived from Pesach and are instead related to ancient names for the month of April, Eostremonat and Ostaramanoth respectively. According to the 8th century Christian monk and historian Bede, this month was dedicated to the pagan fertility goddess Eostre. The Easter Bunny is often identified as a remnant of this fertility festival, although there is no evidence of any link." Wiki, of course.

Cool

You know, this is one of the reason I have problems accepting that if people don't follow Christian's salvation path that they're going to Hell. I mean this friend of mine is a good woman. She is a great friend and is very smart. She lives her life according to Wicca laws and doctrines, and she is an all around great person. I doubt that God would condemned her to Hell just because she is a diffrent religion.

One can't really give a uniform view on this topic, in my opinion, simply because "Wiccan" is such an incredibly vague label. People who call themselves Wiccan can have such widely divergent beliefs it's unfair simply to clump them together into a supposedly homgenous group.

That said... egh.

Myself, I like Wicca and the Wiccan ethos (as well as that of the broader neo-pagan community), though I'm more inclined towards the Reclaiming tradition than that of Gardner, which I see more as a development of Crowley and Gardner's G.D., Thelemic, and O.T.O. practices. (Which, while they have much to say for them, aren't really my cup of tea. I find it easier to believe in the power of the Great Mother than that of the Whore of Babylon. :p)

No, it is nothing short of an extreme disbelief in the abilities of such called "occultists".

If your cult, be called wiccan, scientology, Wabba Wabba, islamism, cristianity, Jedi or Shumba Wamba, do not abuse or otherwise exploit others, then you shouldn't be affected by my statements. People shouldn't be imprisoned for holding a religious belief. They should be imprisoned if such beliefs are used to abuse, manipulate and exploit others, and such beliefs should be banned.

I, sire, do not answer to the title of "sir".

I have no criminal tolerance. I have a good deal of religious tolerance, although.

And? How are occultists (besides thouse who sacrifice humans) criminal?

EDIT: Also, Wicca does not, and this will hopefulyl be the last time I need to say this, does NOT abuse, manipulate, or exploit others. And please, do not put ANY respectable religion next to Scientology. It just demeans it.

Perhaps he's asking for oppinions and correcting erronious ones . . .

Exactly!

Cool

You know, this is one of the reason I have problems accepting that if people don't follow Christian's salvation path that they're going to Hell. I mean this friend of mine is a good woman. She is a great friend and is very smart. She lives her life according to Wicca laws and doctrines, and she is an all around great person. I doubt that God would condemned her to Hell just because she is a diffrent religion.

According to the "mainstream" monothiest religions, they will. That's why I have an utter hate for the "mainstream" monothiest God.

According to the "mainstream" monothiest religions, they will. That's why I have an utter hate for the "mainstream" monothiest God.

I honestly believe that as humans, we can't decide who will go to Heaven or Hell, that's only up to God.

Do you mean Gardner?
One guy spouting off that he's in an ancient religion doesn't mean much, especially since his claims can't be supported.

Wicca is a hodge podge of various pagan thoughts and practices from disparate sources with no cohesiveness. It's a 20th century religion commandeering ancient myths.

You mean, in the same way Christianity commandeers the ancient myths of the Hebrews, and concocts a 'hodge-podge' with other pagan practises of it's time?

The argument over whether or not Wicca is '20th Century' is one that is never likely to be resolved. Some say - since there was no formal RECORDED construction that embraces ALL of the attriutes currently found in Wicca... it should be considered 'new'.

On the other hand, some people say that Gardner recorded and codified a lot of things that people had been doing fairly consistently for some time... a 'hedge' practise. There are certainly evidences that people have embraced similar beliefs throughout history, if not always with the same name... modern Wicca shares similarities with the practices of ancient Thessaly.

Well I've known plenty of wiccans. At first I thought all these rituals and spellcasting were just some lighthearted fun, but it seems that my friends had actually deluded themselves into thinking it was true. It's completely harmless though. From what I could see it just involved dressing gothic, collecting semi-precious stones and lighting lots of incense sticks.

Well I've known plenty of wiccans. At first I thought all these rituals and spellcasting were just some lighthearted fun, but it seems that my friends had actually deluded themselves into thinking it was true. It's completely harmless though. From what I could see it just involved dressing gothic, collecting semi-precious stones and lighting lots of incense sticks.

And I say once again. I actually say many things once again. So this religion is just a delusion, and not an actual religion? And chances are if they dress gothic, collect stones, and light incense and say that makes them Wiccan, chanes are they aren't Wiccan.

Well I've known plenty of wiccans. At first I thought all these rituals and spellcasting were just some lighthearted fun, but it seems that my friends had actually deluded themselves into thinking it was true. It's completely harmless though. From what I could see it just involved dressing gothic, collecting semi-precious stones and lighting lots of incense sticks.

There are many people who practice magic that do say it has effects; whether they are psychological in nature or actual paranormal forces in action, there have been people involved in Wicca, OTO, and other magical belief systems that claim to have experienced things. Even the infamous Aleister Crowley claimed to have some rather disturbing results in his rituals at Boleskine House.

However, the kids you describe seem more like kids trying to mess around than anyone trying out magic. Personally, I feel that magick (the preferred spelling) is more of a psychological or mystical experience than anything else.

People shouldn't be imprisoned for holding a religious belief. They should be imprisoned if such beliefs are used to abuse, manipulate and exploit others, and such beliefs should be banned.

How exactly does one ban an internal mental state?

And I say once again. I actually say many things once again.
I'm listening...
So this religion is just a delusion, and not an actual religion?
Sure it is a religion. It's just that I am certain that no gods, fairies or invisible pink unicorns exist, so it is my view that all religious people are delusional. *Cough*
And chances are if they dress gothic, collect stones, and light incense and say that makes them Wiccan, chanes are they aren't Wiccan.
I think they were actually wiccan, not just dressing up and fooling around. My best friend at college kept prattling on about her religion, she'd read up on it a lot. I don't remember much but she mentioned a goddess called Diana a few times. It wasn't just a phase either seeing as four years after we first met, she still believes of all this wiccan stuff.

I think they were actually wiccan, not just dressing up and fooling around. My best friend at college kept prattling on about her religion, she'd read up on it a lot. I don't remember much but she mentioned a goddess called Diana a few times. It wasn't just a phase either seeing as four years after we first met, she still believes of all this wiccan stuff.

It could be Religio Romana, a traditional and historically faithful reconstruction of the ancient Roman beliefs. However, if she practiced ritual magic that's pretty unlikely.

It could be Religio Romana, a traditional and historically faithful reconstruction of the ancient Roman beliefs. However, if she practiced ritual magic that's pretty unlikely.

No, I've just checked on wikipedia. Today there is a branch of Wicca named for her, Dianic Wicca, which is characterized by an exclusive focus on the feminine aspect of the Divine.

I have a reproduction of a fresco of the Tauroctony.

Tell me what you think of it. Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees? Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it? Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

It's relatively peaceful. There are some (who I'd consider to be) unbalanced people involved in it, but only to the same extent that there are unbalanced people involved in pretty much anything going these days. That being said, my significant other is a practicising Wiccan Priestess, versed in the Gardnerian tradition. I don't consider myself to be one thing or another, however - I fancy myself a spiritual Free Agent, as I've always had my own particular path to follow, one which at times overlaps with archetypes from two separate but related pantheons, as well as having a direct line to some other/higher consciousness - "God" in some sense.

I sometimes find myself gravitating toward pagans because they at least have an overwhelming tendency to open-mindedness. That being said, I've rubbed shoulders with some fairly conservative Wiccans, too. Now those people are funny. Not necessarily in a good way, either.

But evil? *laughs uproariously*

Stop making me laugh.

No, I've just checked on wikipedia.

I figured it wasn't RR; that clears it up.

I haven't met any of them that don't fall into at least 3 out of 4 of the following


young or likewise immature
rebelling against their parents
seem to be doing it to fit in
trying to convert me forcefully


so you know I probably don't have an entirely unbiased view.Hi, nice to meet you.

(Now you have met someone that doesn't fit into any of the above. Congrats.)

I'm listening...

Sure it is a religion. It's just that I am certain that no gods, fairies or invisible pink unicorns exist, so it is my view that all religious people are delusional. *Cough*

I think they were actually wiccan, not just dressing up and fooling around. My best friend at college kept prattling on about her religion, she'd read up on it a lot. I don't remember much but she mentioned a goddess called Diana a few times. It wasn't just a phase either seeing as four years after we first met, she still believes of all this wiccan stuff.
Please, for the love of god, read up on a religion before you say you know everything about a religion. And believe me, they are NOT Wiccans. They may know a few mainstream things about it, but that's really all they know.

Hi, nice to meet you.

(Now you have met someone that doesn't fit into any of the above. Congrats.)

Where the hell did you come from?

Please, for the love of god, read up on a religion before you say you know everything about a religion. And believe me, they are NOT Wiccans. They may know a few mainstream things about it, but that's really all they know.

I didn't know it was expected to read up on things before you make a post expressing your view. Unfortunetely, I don't have the time to research into the topic of every post I make. Also, when did I ever say I knew everything about this religion?

:confused:

Why do you doubt they are wiccans? You seemed to of written them off as posers just because I described them as gothic. Or was there another reason?

I didn't know it was expected to read up on things before you make a post expressing your view. Unfortunetely, I don't have the time to research into the topic of every post I make. Also, when did I ever say I knew everything about this religion?

:confused:

Why do you doubt they are wiccans? You seemed to of written them off as posers just because I described them as gothic. Or was there another reason?

Heh. This thread sucks you into theological debates, I made one comment about "The horned one" and the convo instantly shot over my head.

Heh. This thread sucks you into theological debates, I made one comment about "The horned one" and the convo instantly shot over my head.

It's okay, with me and you here we can turn this into a fun lighthearted thread. We have the advantage over the theological debaters because we don't feel the need to write really long indignant replies.

Everyones favourite lesbian wiccans. (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/seminolegirl/Buffy%20the%20vampire%20Slayer/Willow%20and%20Tara/41757f26.jpg):)

Wicca: Like no other. (Except neo-peganism, druidism, ancient celtic religions...)

Why is every wiccan I've ever met female? :confused:

It's okay, with me and you here we can turn this into a fun lighthearted thread. We have the advantage over the theological debaters because we don't feel the need to write really long indignant replies.

Everyones favourite lesbian wiccans. (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/seminolegirl/Buffy%20the%20vampire%20Slayer/Willow%20and%20Tara/41757f26.jpg):)

Ok that one, I simply CANNOT say anything about it being "fake Wiccan". I mean it is, I just can't say it isn't. It's too hot.

Why is every wiccan I've ever met female? :confused:

Because of the naked circle thing, every man willing to be naked while holding another man's hand can't stand the idea of worshipping a goddess.:p

Why is every wiccan I've ever met female? :confused:

Probably because nature appeals more to women than to men, and Wicca is a nature religion. Also, women have a tendency to announce things about them more than men. It could also be that their the only ones you remember. ;)

Probably because nature appeals more to women than to men, and Wicca is a nature religion. Also, women have a tendency to announce things about them more than men. It could also be that their the only ones you remember. ;)

Something about children and new life appeals to women. Wonder why that is... ;)

Wicca: Like no other. (Except neo-peganism, druidism, ancient celtic religions...)

Wicca's a mile apart from other religions; its similarities with neo-paganism or historical-reconstructionist paganism (like what I adhere to). It's more of a mixture of religions combined with modern-day elements and a more modern magickal tradition.

Wicca's a mile apart from other religions; its similarities with neo-paganism or historical-reconstructionist paganism (like what I adhere to). It's more of a mixture of religions combined with modern-day elements and a more modern magickal tradition.

Now, like every religion there are good wiccans and bad wiccans right? You know, wiccans who use their spells and etc. for good and vice versa?

(Did you get my e-mail?)

Let me check my TG and e-mail box. Edit: No, but I did get a TG from the moderators telling me to stop my use of the "Report Bad Post" button.

You're a puppet of Vetalia?

You're a puppet of Vetalia?

Read my deletion comment

Read my deletion comment

LOL, yea I was wondering why you were responding to what I asked Vetalia.

However, back to my question, are there good and bad wiccans? You know wiccans who use the spells and religion for good and evil?

Now, like every religion there are good wiccans and bad wiccans right? You know, wiccans who use their spells and etc. for good and vice versa?


From what little I know, the good ones were wiccan and the not-so-good called themselves pagan. Both seemed pretty much the same to me. *Shrugs*

LOL, yea I was wondering why you were responding to what I asked Vetalia.

However, back to my question, are there good and bad wiccans? You know wiccans who use the spells and religion for good and evil?

IIRC (and I am not an expert on Wicca by any means), it is against the Wiccan tradition to try and use spells to harm others. So, there are spells in existance that could be used to harm others, but by using them you are causing a huge disturbance in magical "energy" that could cause serious problems for you.

Also, the spell must be cast willingly on someone else; it is summed up as "do what you will, and harm no one".

From what little I know, the good ones were wiccan and the not-so-good called themselves pagan. Both seemed pretty much the same to me. *Shrugs*

They might call themselves "pagan" as a distinction, but it is not a good/evil dichotomy in its most accurate usage.

Now, I'm a pagan but I have no ties to Wicca other than nominal similarities and their use of some archetypes of a few of my Gods. I don't do any magic, and I perform rituals similar to all other religions; my moral code is pretty assuredly good and similar and I ask the Gods for blessings or guidance through prayer and ritual offerings just like any religion. Personally, I feel that magic is real in some sense, either psychological or actually "magical".

Why is every wiccan I've ever met female? :confused:


Probably because the traditional Big Three (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are seen as being largely paternalistic and male dominated, whereas Wicca and related religions introduce the concept of the "goddess" as an alternative. If I understand correctly, Wicca and related religions tend to have a strong connection to feminism and related politics.

Gaius Suetonius Paulinus

Any wiccans jump at that name?

Gaius Suetonius Paulinus Any wiccans jump at that name?

I like him. But that's because I follow the Greek gods and believe the orderly rule of Greco-Roman civilization preferable to those uncouth barbarians. :p

I'd better keep an eye out for modern day Boudicas coming to avenge her...

I like him. But that's because I follow the Greek gods and believe the orderly rule of Greco-Roman civilization preferable to those uncouth barbarians. :p

::adjusts uncouth barbarian robes:: Woo!

And I must agree with previous posters that there is no good/evil dichotomy between Wiccans and Pagans. The Wiccan rede basically precludes practitioners of Wicca from using their abilities to harm (what with the three fold rule and the Charge of the Goddess saying "and it harm none..."). General Pagans on the other hand aren't bound by the Charge of the Goddess and vary widely in their opinions on whether or not you should ONLY use your abilities for good.

And then you have the Recons that basically follow the moral code of the society that their Gods were a part of.

Tell me what you think of it.

Do you consider a cult of loons who run around hugging trees?

Do you consider it an evil entity which can only lead to harm for those in it?

Do you consider it a peaceful religion, possibly one of the few peaceful ones out there? Just tell me what you think of it.

The first one. But, they are not alone in their looniness, so it's harmless.

Wicca's a mile apart from other religions; its similarities with neo-paganism or historical-reconstructionist paganism (like what I adhere to). It's more of a mixture of religions combined with modern-day elements and a more modern magickal tradition.

The reason Wicca is similar to Neo-Paganisim is the same reason being a Baptist is a lot like being a Christian.

From what little I know, the good ones were wiccan and the not-so-good called themselves pagan. Both seemed pretty much the same to me. *Shrugs*



:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

It has nothing to do with good and not good. ALL WICCANS ARE PAGANS much the same as all Baptists are Christians. the Wiccans beleive in a God and Goddess and the Wiccan rede not everyone under the umbrella of Paganisim does but that doesn't make them "bad".

Reading too much Lovecraft? Iä, Iä?

Or too much Anne Rice?

Occultist? Yeah, you should be, I bet you "occult" yourself in a basement or a cellar.



I wasn't being sarcastic. If you found it offensive, I'm sorry for you. Trying to abuse others, (although the Wiccan cult lacks the endless desire for filthy money) is also a crime. I would like to see most "occultists" banned from spreading their lies and perhaps imprisoned for their crimes.

I actually have never read Anne Rice's work and only read Lovecraft once, for a literature class. And no, since you seem predictable enough that I'm guessing you'll try to stereotype me with it, I am not a fan of Tolkien either. By the way, you seem to be confusing "occultist" with "goth". But that's okay, you ARE ignorant of what is being discussed after all, so it's normal for you not to have all that skill in defining things in this area.

I read up on Crowley, mostly, but I also study a decent deal about Wicca, some theology theories as well. I've seen things that work and things that do not. I do not, I repeat, I do not believe myself capable of performing D&D-style magic, because, in the likely case you don't know it, occultism does not claim itself able to perform it, and neither do wicca nor paganism. It was a stereotype that bigots created in order to set up a strawman. I'm actually a somewhat sociable person, and my apartment has no basement or cellar. I dress normally and the only way an onlooker would have to know what my beliefs are would be asking about them.

Did you ever see the kind of thing Christian churches do? Withholdig condoms in Africa, trying to forcefeed creationism to people, trying to force pregnant 12-year olds that were raped to carry the pregancy to term? If you say they should also burn for it, well, you'll still be an ignorant person but at least you'll be a coherent one. A coherent one that is my guest to go visit the nearest church and tell that to the priest on his face.

As for your pathetic attempts at flaming, I'll give you two options, for your own good: cut them off and start arguing like you have skill in it, or show that you have to flame your way through the discussion in an attempt to make me lose control and end the discussion by default. You will not be successful at starting a flame war with me, and if you keep this up you will lose the argument. Easily. You have no way here but showing me what you can do in the argument, and, even in that case, by your previous posts, I'd say the odds are against you. So, I actually present to you a third option, which is not to answer this post as a way to forfeit the argument and save yourself the hassle of losing it to me in more excruciating ways.

Make my day.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

It has nothing to do with good and not good. ALL WICCANS ARE PAGANS much the same as all Baptists are Christians. the Wiccans beleive in a God and Goddess and the Wiccan rede not everyone under the umbrella of Paganisim does but that doesn't make them "bad".

There's no need for the headbanging mate, I've admitted that I know very little about this. I'm just speaking from the impression I have got from talking to my wiccan/pagan friends. The wiccans I know said it was part of their religion never to harm anyone. Again, I know next to nothing about this so I'm grateful if anything I say wrong gets corrected. But we are talking about religion here and I don't think there is one religion around where all its followers agree on everything, It gets a little confusing for me.

:confused:

1- No, it is nothing short of an extreme disbelief in the abilities of such called "occultists".

2- If your cult, be called wiccan, scientology, Wabba Wabba, islamism, cristianity, Jedi or Shumba Wamba, do not abuse or otherwise exploit others, then you shouldn't be affected by my statements. People shouldn't be imprisoned for holding a religious belief. They should be imprisoned if such beliefs are used to abuse, manipulate and exploit others, and such beliefs should be banned.

3- I, sire, do not answer to the title of "sir".

4- I have no criminal tolerance. I have a good deal of religious tolerance, although.

1- I've seen ardent atheists that do not believe in genocide. You're not one of them.

2- Funny, because you first said it as a blanket statement, so you'll have to retract one of the two statements, because they cancel each other out.

3- You just did, sir.

4- Funny definition of tolerance, yours. You make a statement about all practitioners of santeria, which is also a diverse religion, and act like anything that disagrees with it is tolerance towards criminals. Of course, it also seems that you imply that believing in presumed innocence, due process law, and proportional punishment are also "tolerance" towards criminals. Must be a lonely world, that one you live in.

The reason Wicca is similar to Neo-Paganisim is the same reason being a Baptist is a lot like being a Christian.

Actually, Baptists are Christians. So are Catholics, Seventh-Day Adventists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Presbyterians, Calvinists, and many more.

It's called a heterodoxy for a reason. They aren't all the same, but they are definitely Christians.

It's as silly as any other religion. Neo-paganism in general strikes me as rather wishywashy when you consider the fact that the original thing frequently involved virgin sacrifices and demolishing Rome:p

It's as silly as any other religion. Neo-paganism in general strikes me as rather wishywashy when you consider the fact that the original thing frequently involved virgin sacrifices and demolishing Rome:p

Hey, I resent that, we're not wishy-washy! Buy me a plane ticket to Rome and you'll see if I don't get a job in the demilition area there! I dare you! :D

It's as silly as any other religion. Neo-paganism in general strikes me as rather wishywashy when you consider the fact that the original thing frequently involved virgin sacrifices and demolishing Rome:p

I thought that was just drunk Germans.

The Rome demolishing bit, that is.

::adjusts uncouth barbarian robes:: Woot

When will these barbarians learn....we're trying to civilize you, not oppress you!

And then you have the Recons that basically follow the moral code of the society that their Gods were a part of.

Within limits, of course. It would be pretty disturbing (and illegal) if Hellenismos adherents started to embrace pederasty or forcing their women to stay at home...to say nothing of trying to get slaves.:eek:

Actually, we're a lot like most religions when it comes to reconstructing morals; most followers of Judaism and Christianity follow moral codes thousands of years old, but they have removed the elements like slavery or execution for minor crimes that pertained to the culture of the time. You reconstruct the religion as faithfully as possible but you update some of the aspects in order to fit modern culture; even the Greeks themselves did this when they eliminated human sacrifices early in their history.

It's as silly as any other religion. Neo-paganism in general strikes me as rather wishywashy when you consider the fact that the original thing frequently involved virgin sacrifices and demolishing Rome:p

You're not serious, right?

You are aware that 'pagan' is not a denomination... merely the way the Christian church termed anyone that was NOT of the Christian church?

(Because Christianity in colonies/conquered territory was almost exclusively in the urban, 'civilised' areas. Thus, those who were not of the 'civilised' areas were godless abominations.... termed as such by their locations: 'heathen" meaning "of the heaths" and pagan from "paganos" - a village, or the people of a village).

1- I've seen ardent atheists that do not believe in genocide. You're not one of them.

2- Funny, because you first said it as a blanket statement, so you'll have to retract one of the two statements, because they cancel each other out.

3- You just did, sir.

4- Funny definition of tolerance, yours. You make a statement about all practitioners of santeria, which is also a diverse religion, and act like anything that disagrees with it is tolerance towards criminals. Of course, it also seems that you imply that believing in presumed innocence, due process law, and proportional punishment are also "tolerance" towards criminals. Must be a lonely world, that one you live in.

I'll save you the shame of arguing with yourself, as you have been doing lately in this thread.

1.- I am not an atheist.

2.- Blanket statements are usually bend to the will of those who use them. I hold nothing in particular against wiccans, or Wabba wabbas, although I find that kind of people (now that you note it, specially that Crowley and his followers) a bit funny, but funny is not neccessarily wrong. People find Mohammed funny sometimes, or the Pope.

3.-I do not answer to the title, I answer to the post. Trying to be satyrical? My gender stipulates that "sir" is not the proper title to me.

4.-If you are talking about the tree of religions that came out of the ancient Yoruba religions, as Candomblé, Santería, Vudú, Palería y Espiritismo? Yes, they are varied, but I was talking about Santería in particular, that has quite a code of conduct and homogenic cult and beliefs, thus rending your "diverse religion" definition a bit dull.

5.-It is not quite lonely, really, lots of people hear what I have to say, and that's more than enough for me. Actually, certain movements called "neo-cons" over there in the USA seems to start agreeing with me.

6.- For me, the practitioners of Santería willingly violate several laws of where I live. I do not suppose, or guess, like you are doing. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have even conducted investigations regarding that. That makes them criminals and must be treated like such. If their beliefs make them behave in that way, then those beliefs should be outlawed. And period.

Oh, and dear occultist, in NS General, the discussions are not lost, unless one of the two sides involved recognize defeat. And from the beginning I can tell you that none of us is going to do such a thing. So stop talking about flaming, (which is not quite right, as flaming imply direct insults, and I have emitted none of those), losing, winning, odds, points, arguments or "options". You are the one that have two options, either listening at what I have to say, or leave the thread.

Stop trying all other people you encounter like you know ten times more than them, you could find from time to time a dissapointment. Pride, dear, is a dangerous sin, for almost all religion and cult available. You are not going to "crush" anyone with the logic or superb writing of you posts, you are not going to achieve victory or to defeat me. Neither will I. the both of us are just going to lose a precious time typing positions, opinions and supposed facts that by mostly are really difficult to prove.

"Hacer tu día" Pfft, are you really waiting for me to respond to make your day?

I'll save you the shame of arguing with yourself, as you have been doing lately in this thread.

1.- I am not an atheist.

2.- Blanket statements are usually bend to the will of those who use them. I hold nothing in particular against wiccans, or Wabba wabbas, although I find that kind of people (now that you note it, specially that Crowley and his followers) a bit funny, but funny is not neccessarily wrong. People find Mohammed funny sometimes, or the Pope.

3.-I do not answer to the title, I answer to the post. Trying to be satyrical? My gender stipulates that "sir" is not the proper title to me.

4.-If you are talking about the tree of religions that came out of the ancient Yoruba religions, as Candomblé, Santería, Vudú, Palería y Espiritismo? Yes, they are varied, but I was talking about Santería in particular, that has quite a code of conduct and homogenic cult and beliefs, thus rending your "diverse religion" definition a bit dull.

5.-It is not quite lonely, really, lots of people hear what I have to say, and that's more than enough for me. Actually, certain movements called "neo-cons" over there in the USA seems to start agreeing with me.

6.- For me, the practitioners of Santería willingly violate several laws of where I live. I do not suppose, or guess, like you are doing. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have even conducted investigations regarding that. That makes them criminals and must be treated like such. If their beliefs make them behave in that way, then those beliefs should be outlawed. And period.

Oh, and dear occultist, in NS General, the discussions are not lost, unless one of the two sides involved recognize defeat. And from the beginning I can tell you that none of us is going to do such a thing. So stop talking about flaming, (which is not quite right, as flaming imply direct insults, and I have emitted none of those), losing, winning, odds, points, arguments or "options". You are the one that have two options, either listening at what I have to say, or leave the thread.

Stop trying all other people you encounter like you know ten times more than them, you could find from time to time a dissapointment. Pride, dear, is a dangerous sin, for almost all religion and cult available. You are not going to "crush" anyone with the logic or superb writing of you posts, you are not going to achieve victory or to defeat me. Neither will I. the both of us are just going to lose a precious time typing positions, opinions and supposed facts that by mostly are really difficult to prove.

"Hacer tu día" Pfft, are you really waiting for me to respond to make your day?


Ah. A neocon. Figures.

Never said you were one, I said that distrust of a belief system doesn't incur in genocide like you are supporting. Many Catholics also don't believe in new-age methods, and they don't recommend the kind of "final solution" you ardently suggest either.

I don't "follow" Crowley any more than a biologist "follows" Darwin.

Many people blow up abortion clinics due to Christian beliefs. So, I'm assuming you also want those beliefs outlawed, since they lead to criminality, right? In order to maintain something like coherence?

You got us confused about your gender because, in my experience, most women tend to be way more polite and articulate than you are. And I say that as a male. But, by all means, criticize my assumption that you were male while assuming I'm an American (Brazilian here, dear, that knows due to culture that there is more than one branch within santería and umbanda).

I don't act as if I knew ten times more than other people, unless I, in fact, do. To wit.

And Fred Phelps (with whom you bear a striking resemblance) never admitted defeat, yet he's treated by everyone as a lunatic. Why? Because he fails to meet decent standards for a discussion: Logical thought, coherence. You don't have to admit being wrong to lose an argument. You, or I would lose it the second our logic starts showing way too many flaws.

Quite frankly, my dear, defeating you in an argument would bring me no pride, because, right now, it'd look like Mike Tyson beating a five-year old. So it's not a pride issue, as much as having a few qualms against your, to put it too nicely, misguided view of reality, which involves, as you yourself said, "sending them to Hell with fire and iron".

And considering that the neocons are, within the world, a really small sect that's regarded by most people, and indeed most Americans, as nutcases, you're still lonely.

Ah. A neocon. Figures.

You'll find that labels don't apply to Aelosia. And she's hardly a neocon.

You'll find that labels don't apply to Aelosia. And she's hardly a neocon.

She says she identifies with that view...

It's as silly as any other religion. Neo-paganism in general strikes me as rather wishywashy when you consider the fact that the original thing frequently involved virgin sacrifices and demolishing Rome:p

For once I actually kind of agree with you Letila.

She says she identifies with that view...

Not completely. Maybe you need to stop trying to put people into a box - especially people you don't agree with.

People don't fit into boxes most of the time.

Not completely. Maybe you need to stop trying to put people into a box - especially people you don't agree with.

People don't fit into boxes most of the time.

Again: She says she identified with that view.

And it's pretty funny that you, who puts a whole GROUP into a box, criticize me as someone that put her in a box when she herself said that neocons share views with her.

she herself said that neocons share views with her.
Not all views. There are significant things that she does not share with neocons.

(Because Christianity in colonies/conquered territory was almost exclusively in the urban, 'civilised' areas. Thus, those who were not of the 'civilised' areas were godless abominations.... termed as such by their locations: 'heathen" meaning "of the heaths" and pagan from "paganos" - a village, or the people of a village).

It was the Roman disdain for nature that led to the derogatory term "pagan", since any proper citizen didn't live in the countryside and certainly didn't respect nature unless it was a manicured garden. Of course, as Christianity gained prominence with the elite, this disdain was embodied in the religion itself; the Christian "devil" is just propaganda meant to make the God Pan look like a force of evil rather than a nature deity who embodied nature, music and (God forbid!) male sexuality. The anti-natural trait brought in to the religion by Paul and Augustine further demonized the pagan deities because they celebrated human nature rather than hated it.

Of course, this didn't faze the country folk whose ancient deities had served them very well for generations; they didn't want to give it up, so the Romans had to spread their religion using the swords of their legions. Coincidentally, this also happened at the same time as the fall of the Roman Empire to pagan Germanic invaders...perhaps the Gods were not pleased by this action?