NationStates Jolt Archive

So no new elections then!

As we all know...the Americans do tend to follow us....and then take over on a massive scale....is this a pilot run for King George?

On a more serious note I think this is going to end up being one of them ost damaging moments for our system of government. For Blair to try and appoint a successor goes against the grain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5319328.stm

Blair hits out over 'disloyalty'
Tony Blair
Mr Blair is being urged to make a public announcement
Tony Blair has branded ex-junior minister Tom Watson "disloyal, discourteous and wrong" for signing a letter urging the prime minister to go.

He spoke out as Khalid Mahmood, a parliamentary secretary to Home Office Minister Tony McNulty, also quit.

The resignations came as Mr Blair faces growing pressure to name a departure date before the end of the year.

Close allies of Gordon Brown say claims Mr Blair will go by May next year are "not good enough"...............


BBC political editor Nick Robinson

Ex-minister Doug Henderson, also a Brown supporter, says he cannot see what Mr Blair will achieve in the next 12 months.

"There should be a new leader in place by the end of March," he said, in time for the local elections and mid-term polls in Scotland and Wales.

He said the timetable suggested by allies of Mr Blair - that he would go in about 12 months time - seemed "the worst time to appoint a new leader".

"People in the country want a change," he told the BBC News website.

But although he thought Mr Brown was "head and shoulders above any other candidate" he still believed there should be a proper leadership contest.

The Sun said that after stepping down as Labour leader on 31 May, Mr Blair's time as prime minister would come to an end on 26 July 2007.

Ex-Cabinet minister David Blunkett told the BBC that it was now "pretty clear that there is an understanding about a date next year - whether it's 31 May when he announces it is open to speculation".

Commons leader Jack Straw says Labour MPs should stop their "obsession" about the timetable for Mr Blair's departure, but he added that he would be "very happy to serve with Gordon Brown".

Conservative leader David Cameron said the government was "in meltdown", while Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell added that Mr Blair "should either resign or state a date".

These are the times when I wish I fully understood your system of government.

These are the times when I wish I fully understood your system of government.

What's to understand? Just like every other political system, the most power-hungry rise to the top and resist social change whilst ignoring the opinions of their constituents.

We call it government... :p

Before anyone gets pissed: I'm not critisizing Britain or the British in any way, I'm discussing the way governments pan out, and why that means that even under systems where elections can be called by parliament, public opinion doesn't always bring change.

What's to understand? Just like every other political system, the most power-hungry rise to the top and resist social change whilst ignoring the opinions of their constituents.

We call it government... :p

Before anyone gets pissed: I'm not critisizing Britain or the British in any way, I'm discussing the way governments pan out, and why that means that even under systems where elections can be called by parliament, public opinion doesn't always bring change.

whoa!! Disclaimer or what?! LOL :)

You are correct though.

I was tongue in cheek with the 'no new elections' but I can't help to think that the Rev Smiler is...not unhinged on power...too strong that....but...hmmmm..ahh !!!! unwilling to leave peacefully...!

These are the times when I wish I fully understood your system of government.

I might regret this! LOL

what do you know so far?

I might regret this! LOL

what do you know so far?

I think I get the general makeup of Parliament, but when people start talking about the ministries and how the PM is elected and legislation, it just turns into a cricket match for me, which is to say I don't understand it, but it's fun to watch and listen to.

I think I get the general makeup of Parliament, but when people start talking about the ministries and how the PM is elected and legislation, it just turns into a cricket match for me, which is to say I don't understand it, but it's fun to watch and listen to.

even more fun is what goes on behind the scenes...

however I must say that PMQ's is one of the best TV shows ever...

These are the times when I wish I fully understood your system of government.

The British system is easy, only one house for us plebs to worry about. You guys have a congress, a senate and a president. Now that is confusing.

The British system is easy, only one house for us plebs to worry about. You guys have a congress, a senate and a president. Now that is confusing.

But it's simplified by having two parties that are eerily similar. :headbang:

Seven Junior Minister resigning in one day - Blair is going to struggle making it to May next year.

None of this would be happening if Paul Eddington and Nigel Hawthorne were both alive and in charge :D

But on a real note, Blair taking pages from the playbook of Dear Leader? Just goes to show how Britain ends up being run by a King George sooner or later.

None of this would be happening if Paul Eddington and Nigel Hawthorne were both alive and in charge :D

But on a real note, Blair taking pages from the playbook of Dear Leader? Just goes to show how Britain ends up being run by a King George sooner or later.

other way round mate...

None of this would be happening if Paul Eddington and Nigel Hawthorne were both alive and in charge :D

But on a real note, Blair taking pages from the playbook of Dear Leader? Just goes to show how Britain ends up being run by a King George sooner or later.
Yes, Minister.

What I’m waiting for is the anouncement of someone like Miliband that they’re going to run for PM. Surely Blair won’t hand over the reigns without trying to put a Blairite in his place?

Either that, or Cameron dupes the nation....

Yes, Minister.

What I’m waiting for is the anouncement of someone like Miliband that they’re going to run for PM. Surely Blair won’t hand over the reigns without trying to put a Blairite in his place?

Either that, or Cameron dupes the nation....

Blair wants a Blairite.nor Gordon Brown.

Thats what this is all about....all from a little meeting in a north London eatery.

Blair wants a Blairite.nor Gordon Brown.
That’s what I’m saying. Every day you get conflicting reports from the Blair camp. Sometimes they seem to imply that Brown will get the position virtually unappossed, sometimes Our Dear Leader sems to be grooming slimeballs like Miliband specifically for the post.

What are they going to do? Wait untill the day before Blair steps down and then say, "Sorry Gordo, but we're going to buger you over this one as well." IMHO, they'll probably go with which ever candidate looks most likely to beat Cameron in a couple of years. If he doesn't manage to reform the Tory's image/policies too much, then Brown will have a chance. But, if Cameron manages to get rid of the ghost of Thatcherism completely, then I reckon we'll see someone like Miliband fill Blair's shoes.

That’s what I’m saying. Every day you get conflicting reports from the Blair camp. Sometimes they seem to imply that Brown will get the position virtually unappossed, sometimes Our Dear Leader sems to be grooming slimeballs like Miliband specifically for the post.

Millibrand? nah....think about it....who took charge when the Rev Smiler was on his holidays?

Scared yet?

How can the article talk about the people wanting a change? How many elections have there been to try to change their leadership? Seems the people want Blair just like, unfortunately, Americans wanted Bush.

How can the article talk about the people wanting a change? How many elections have there been to try to change their leadership?

The PM is the leader of the Party in power.

The PM is the leader of the Party in power.

I know but there have been elections to get a new party with majority, yes? That didn't happen.

I know but there have been elections to get a new party with majority, yes? That didn't happen.

yeah...what happens is that the party has an election for leader and he takes over...like John Major did when Thatcher resigned.

How can the article talk about the people wanting a change? How many elections have there been to try to change their leadership? Seems the people want Blair just like, unfortunately, Americans wanted Bush.
Not really. With the first-past-the-post system, Labour won with a only just over 35% of the vote. That’s only about 21% of the electorate voting for Labour. Hardly a decisive mandate for governance.

Millibrand? nah....think about it....who took charge when the Rev Smiler was on his holidays?
Not bloody likely. Prescott's only good for distracting the media away from foreign policy blunders. Iraq giving you grief? Wheel out John and his croquet set.

yeah...what happens is that the party has an election for leader and he takes over...like John Major did when Thatcher resigned.

Well I just looked it up and it seems that the Labor party pretty much has a lock, doesn't it? So all that is happening is that people want a new party leader?

Not really. With the first-past-the-post system, Labour won with a only just over 35% of the vote. That’s only about 21% of the electorate voting for Labour. Hardly a decisive mandate for governance.


Not bloody likely. Prescott's only good for distracting the media away from foreign policy blunders. Iraq giving you grief? Wheel out John and his croquet set.

Two Shags??? He was a quite little pup...it John Ried dude! He took charge...not Prezza...

Well I just looked it up and it seems that the Labor party pretty much has a lock, doesn't it? So all that is happening is that people want a new party leader?

New PM by way of new party leader yes

Well I just looked it up and it seems that the Labor party pretty much has a lock, doesn’t it? So all that is happening is that people want a new party leader?
Not quite. Most folk want a new Prime Minister. What Blair’s got to decide is the right balance between finishing pushing through policy and finding a Blairite to continue his work, without either splitting his party or pissing off the electorate so much they vote Conservative.

Two Shags??? He was a quite little pup...it John Ried dude! He took charge...not Prezza...
Took charge? You mean he visited some places where bombs didn’t explode and terrorists atrocites didn’t happen, reassuring the public that things that didn’t happen wouldn’t not not happen in the future.

Took charge? You mean he visited some places where bombs didn’t explode and terrorists atrocites didn’t happen, reassuring the public that things that didn’t happen wouldn’t not not happen in the future.

:p yeah pretty much...and came out with some fantastic rhethoric too boot!

Not quite. Most folk want a new Prime Minister. What Blair’s got to decide is the right balance between finishing pushing through policy and finding a Blairite to continue his work, without either splitting his party or pissing off the electorate so much they vote Conservative.

Sounds as if Blair just needs to compromise if he is meeting such resistance. I have to believe that he wouldn't cause problems in his own party. At least I'd hope so.

Btw, how do Conservatives feel about Bush and his policies?

Sounds as if Blair just needs to compromise if he is meeting such resistance. I have to believe that he wouldn’t cause problems in his own party. At least I’d hope so.
The problem, from Blair’s point of view, is that his party has two factions: one solidly (well, up untill yesterday) behind him, and the other, more lefty ‘Old Labour’ behind Gordon Brown. And Blair’s not too frightened of ruffling feathers in his own party.

Btw, how do Conservatives feel about Bush and his policies?
The Conservatives are very much in favour of ‘free market’ economics and the like, as well as being fairly solidly behind Bush and the War Against Terrorism. Although they’re not above criticising the way that certain offensives are handled by Blair and Bush. Traditioonally, they’re in favour of the Republicans over the Democrats.

Sounds as if Blair just needs to compromise if he is meeting such resistance. I have to believe that he wouldn't cause problems in his own party. At least I'd hope so.

Btw, how do Conservatives feel about Bush and his policies?

I don't think there are many people any more who give a damn about the political parties. They suck, they can't seem to find intelligent and inventive ways to handle inflation and security, or fix any other problems for that matter, and both parties rely on boogeymen to scare voters. For the GOP its homosexuals, terrorists, and God, while the Dems use Republicans, baby-killing soldiers :upyours: and terrorists. It's enough to make me violent, and I don't even have a target.

And a vote? What the fuck is a vote worth? Assuming they count them anymore, there's still no candidate worth a damn who won't be twisted by his party's crooked agenda. I can vote for Mr. Hyde or Dr. Jackass, and then let one of them run the country into the ground. And these idiot party members are so busy attacking each other they can't consider working together to get decent politicians elected, assuming such a thing exists. At least the conservatives are slowly realizing their leader's faults, but the Libs swear everything they are fed is friggin gold.

The Conservatives are very much in favour of ‘free market’ economics and the like, as well as being fairly solidly behind Bush and the War Against Terrorism. Although they’re not above criticising the way that certain offensives are handled by Blair and Bush. Traditioonally, they’re in favour of the Republicans over the Democrats.

Huh. Seems to me there isn't too much of a difference between Labor and Conservative.

The Conservatives are very much in favour of ‘free market’ economics and the like, as well as being fairly solidly behind Bush and the War Against Terrorism. Although they’re not above criticising the way that certain offensives are handled by Blair and Bush. Traditioonally, they’re in favour of the Republicans over the Democrats.


???
Seen the polls mate? No, we aren't.

I don't think there are many people any more who give a damn about the political parties. They suck, they can't seem to find intelligent and inventive ways to handle inflation and security, or fix any other problems for that matter, and both parties rely on boogeymen to scare voters. For the GOP its homosexuals, terrorists, and God, while the Dems use Republicans, baby-killing soldiers :upyours: and terrorists. It's enough to make me violent, and I don't even have a target.

And a vote? What the fuck is a vote worth? Assuming they count them anymore, there's still no candidate worth a damn who won't be twisted by his party's crooked agenda. I can vote for Mr. Hyde or Dr. Jackass, and then let one of them run the country into the ground. And these idiot party members are so busy attacking each other they can't consider working together to get decent politicians elected, assuming such a thing exists. At least the conservatives are slowly realizing their leader's faults, but the Libs swear everything they are fed is friggin gold.


Um...this is a UK politics thread??? :)

nice rant though :p

And a vote? What the fuck is a vote worth? Assuming they count them anymore, there’s still no candidate worth a damn who won’t be twisted by his party’s crooked agenda<snip>
Egads! I think your ranting about the wrong electoral dictatorship, matey. On the vote issue, luckily here in Scotland we have a (kinda) proportional representation system. So my vote does indeed count, if only to dissolve any majority in Holyrood. Alas, in UK-wide elections, I live in a very safe Labour seat so my voting patterns don’t much dent the government’s ‘majority’.

Seen the polls mate? No, we aren't.
Again d00d, we're talking about the British Conservative party, not right-wing Americans. Your righteous anger is noted, however.

Egads! I think your ranting about the wrong electoral dictatorship, matey. On the vote issue, luckily here in Scotland we have a (kinda) proportional representation system. So my vote does indeed count, if only to dissolve any majority in Holyrood. Alas, in UK-wide elections, I live in a very safe Labour seat so my voting patterns don’t much den the government’s ‘majority’.

and you get to vote on our laws but can't for you...:headbang:

/not having a go at you or Scotland

and you get to vote on our laws but can’t for you...:headbang:
Yeah, I can understand English resentment of this, though I must point out that the Scottish Executive in no way holds complete power over Scotland. Several key issues are still controlled by Westminster, including defense. So ‘your’ laws are still ‘my’ laws, some of the time.

But I agree it’s abhorent that Blair uses Scottish MP’s to push through policies like tuition fees and foundation hospitals that only affect England and Wales.

Um...this is a UK politics thread??? :)

nice rant though :p

Oops, I knew it was about the UK, but someone asked how conservatives felt about Bush and his policies and I forgot temporarily that you have conservatives too. :sheepigh grin:

Anyways, felt good to get that out.

I forgot temporarily that you have conservatives too. :sheepigh grin:
Confusing isn’t it? Don’t even get me started on the American use of the word ‘liberal’.....

Yeah, I can understand English resentment of this, though I must point out that the Scottish Executive in no way holds complete power over Scotland. Several key issues are still controlled by Westminster, including defense. So ‘your’ laws are still ‘my’ laws, some of the time.

But I agree it’s abhorent that Blair uses Scottish MP’s to push through policies like tuition fees and foundation hospitals that only affect England and Wales.

Yeah...its just another part of the labyrinth of our 'democracy'....or what remains of it...

Oops, I knew it was about the UK, but someone asked how conservatives felt about Bush and his policies and I forgot temporarily that you have conservatives too. :sheepigh grin:

Anyways, felt good to get that out.

:)

is cool....and its good to rant LOL

Yeah...its just another part of the labyrinth of our ‘democracy’....or what remains of it...
Some comedian, can’t remember who, suggested that we solve this problem by allowing Scottish Mp’s to vote only on English issues, and vice versa. A sort of Mutually Assured Political Destruction.

Some comedian, can’t remember who, suggested that we solve this problem by allowing Scottish Mp’s to vote only on English issues, and vice versa. A sort of Mutually Assured Political Destruction.

that would be like the EU and the US! LOL

THe story is getting more serious....they(Blairites) are calling it an attempted coup....

good god! that is desperation!

THe story is getting more serious....they(Blairites) are calling it an attempted coup....
Idiots, as if this is out of the blue. They wrote a letter for Pete’s sake!

Oh and for Utracia and anyone else a little bit confused about what’s going to happen post-Blair, you might wnat to look here. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1866157,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=11)

Oh and for Utracia and anyone else a little bit confused about what’s going to happen post-Blair, you might wnat to look here. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1866157,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=11)

Sorry, but to make sure is Gordon Brown an ally of Blair or against him?

Brown wants to be PM so he would be against Blair.

Trilby63;11645647']Brown wants to be PM so he would be against Blair.

So he doesn't support many of Blair's policies?

So he doesn't support many of Blair's policies?

I'm not sure but those two really don't get along..

Sorry, but to make sure is Gordon Brown an ally of Blair or against him?
Gordon Brown is Chanceller of the Exchequer, which basically means he’s in charge of the government’s economic policy. Years ago, before Labour was in power, Blair and Brown were up-and-coming politicians who helped reform the Labour party and move it away from its traditional Leftist roots; at the same time making the party much more electable. At the time, Brown desired to be Prime Minister when it looked inevitable that Labour would win the next election.

However, at the now infamous meeting in the Granita restaraunt in 1994, Blair persuaded Brown that in the interests of the Party, he should step aside and let Blair become PM. In return, Brown was given complete control of Labour’s economic policy and a big say in government, as well as promising that Brown would get a chance at being PM after Blair; making him the most powerful Chancellor ever.

There has always been a lot of tension between the PM’s office and the Tresuary (Brown’s government department), but in recent years this has stepped up dramatically. At the last election, Blair promised he wouldn’t stand again for the Premiership. Since then, Brown and his allies have put pressure on Blair to resign sooner than he intended. In the last few days, this has erupted into nearly civil war inside the Labour party.

So basically, Brown is Blair’s biggest political rival; even more so than the Leader of the Opposition party, David Cameron.

So he doesn’t support many of Blair’s policies?
Brown is seen as more ‘traditional’ Labour than Blair, i.e. more to the left. However, Brown’s no fool, and certainly no ardent socialist. He’s not going to abandon the majority of the Blairite reforms and supports most of Blair’s policies; including reform of the National Health Service and education system as well as replacing the UK’s nuclear capability.

In the last few minutes, Blair has given a statement confirming he will stand down within the next twelve months (BBC report here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5322094.stm)). He said he didn’t want to set a precise date, but has confirmed he will lay down a timetable of departure, rather than leave unanounced.

Gordon Brown gave a statement earlier in the day stating that he will stand behind the PM’s decision. So both camps in the Labour party trying to limit any damage done by infighting.

Interestingly, some reports seem to indicate Alan Johnston (Minister for Trade & Industry) has now overtaken Brown as favourite contender for the Premiership within the Labour ranks.

In the last few minutes, Blair has given a statement confirming he will stand down within the next twelve months (BBC report here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5322094.stm)). He said he didn’t want to set a precise date, but has confirmed he will lay down a timetable of departure, rather than leave unanounced.

Gordon Brown gave a statement earlier in the day stating that he will stand behind the PM’s decision. So both camps in the Labour party trying to limit any damage done by infighting.

Interestingly, some reports seem to indicate Alan Johnston (Minister for Trade & Industry) has now overtaken Brown as favourite contender for the Premiership within the Labour ranks.

He still hasn't given a precise departure date, which I thought was the entire point of this issue.

He still hasn’t given a precise departure date, which I thought was the entire point of this issue.
But the fact that he’s been forced to make the statement at all attests to the begining of the end for Blair.

But the fact that he’s been forced to make the statement at all attests to the begining of the end for Blair.

I maintain that it was the issue of tuition fees that did for him to be honest.

12 months....if anyone can nail a straightforward and plain answer from him will forever more be a hero.

Bliar is incapable of setting any kind of 'milestone'. *uck*