NationStates Jolt Archive

The was a story on BBC News this morning that caught my interest, and I thought I'd venture into NSG with such a story to see what debate comes forward.

Recently, the convicted child-murderer Ian Huntley attempted to commit suicide in prison. For those of you who do not know for whatever reasons, Huntley was convicted of the murders of the 10 year-old schoolgirls Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman in 2003. In a similar case, the serial killer Harold Shipman hung himself in 2004.

On the news this morning, a representative of the 'Mirror' newspaper put forward the idea that, due to the over-stretched prison service and the costs of monitoring such prisoners on 'Suicide Watch', that they should be allowed to commit suicide if they wish, as it would remove these people from society and save the money used to constantly survey dangerous prisoners.

I personally find the idea somewhat unsettling with the idea of allowing prisoners to commit suicide should they wish. In a country where they do not allow terminally ill patients to take their own lives, allowing this for people who are not in such a situation would be bizzare.

BBC News also reported that there is a substantial percentage of attempted suicides in prisons committed by those between 15 and 18 who are on remand, so the debate does not lie with just the mass murderers and the serial killers. The Daily Telegraph disagreed with the idea, claiming that such a policy would be allowing Huntley to cheat his sentence and take control of his own fate once more, something that the law wished to remove.

So, should this be a debate on 'cut-throat' cost effectiveness, or is the idea unwise? Or should be just bring back the death penalty to the United Kingdom for the more severe crimes, thus meaning that the death of these people is their lawful punishment whilst protecting those of lesser crimes from attempted suicide?

allowing suicide in prison would make people who wish to commit suicide commit crimes and that’s not what you want to happen

allowing suicide in prison would make people who wish to commit suicide commit crimes and that’s not what you want to happenHuh?

I think the cost of the prsion service is a price we have to pay to avoid the consequences of the abuse of the justice system and miscarriages of justice that cannot then be put right.

There are certainly other ways to prevent suicides. I'm thinking about duct tape, now, but limiting the availability of materials that could be used to commit the act would certainly be a start.

Then if they succeed, they can die with the satisfaction that they truly overcame the odds that were stacked against them.

I personally find the idea somewhat unsettling with the idea of allowing prisoners to commit suicide should they wish

They're human beings just like you.

I can find no reason to deny them this last resortm as I would not deny it a free man, either.

I personally find the idea somewhat unsettling with the idea of allowing prisoners to commit suicide should they wish. In a country where they do not allow terminally ill patients to take their own lives, allowing this for people who are not in such a situation would be bizzare.
Totally bizzare vision there: Terminally ill patients staggering around committing crimes so as to be jailed where they can then legally commit suicide.


Ah, the Mirror. What a waste of good toilet paper that is.
Personally I'd perfer to see Henley rot in prison for the next 40-50years, spending each and every day reflecting on what he's done.

They're human beings just like you.

I can find no reason to deny them this last resort as I would not deny it a free man, either.
Big difference though is the pressure they're under while in prison/on remand.

Especially if the person is very young (under 20). Fear of Prison (and what might happen there - something a lot of cops love to emphasis too, I might add) can cause them to become so afraid they start viewing suicide as a reasonable solution.

Ignoring and allowing people - who might very well be innocent, remember - to top themselves because of the situation they've been put in is hardly a mark of an advanced society.


I think the best argument against allowing them to commit suicide is that shit Shipman.
He topped himself the day after an insurance policy can due, allowing his wife to claim full NHS pension. Moreso, he never once admitted his guilt nor showed any remorse towards his victims families.
They got no closure from his death.
Basically he was being a selfish arse right to the end.

The was a story on BBC News this morning that caught my interest, and I thought I'd venture into NSG with such a story to see what debate comes forward.

Recently, the convicted child-murderer Ian Huntley attempted to commit suicide in prison. For those of you who do not know for whatever reasons, Huntley was convicted of the murders of the 10 year-old schoolgirls Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman in 2003. In a similar case, the serial killer Harold Shipman hung himself in 2004.

On the news this morning, a representative of the 'Mirror' newspaper put forward the idea that, due to the over-stretched prison service and the costs of monitoring such prisoners on 'Suicide Watch', that they should be allowed to commit suicide if they wish, as it would remove these people from society and save the money used to constantly survey dangerous prisoners.

I personally find the idea somewhat unsettling with the idea of allowing prisoners to commit suicide should they wish. In a country where they do not allow terminally ill patients to take their own lives, allowing this for people who are not in such a situation would be bizzare.

BBC News also reported that there is a substantial percentage of attempted suicides in prisons committed by those between 15 and 18 who are on remand, so the debate does not lie with just the mass murderers and the serial killers. The Daily Telegraph disagreed with the idea, claiming that such a policy would be allowing Huntley to cheat his sentence and take control of his own fate once more, something that the law wished to remove.

So, should this be a debate on 'cut-throat' cost effectiveness, or is the idea unwise? Or should be just bring back the death penalty to the United Kingdom for the more severe crimes, thus meaning that the death of these people is their lawful punishment whilst protecting those of lesser crimes from attempted suicide?

Suicide is far too good for Ian Huntley.

Especially if the person is very young (under 20). Fear of Prison (and what might happen there - something a lot of cops love to emphasis too, I might add) can cause them to become so afraid they start viewing suicide as a reasonable solution.

Who are you to decide suicide is not a reasonable solution?

If you believe - as I do - that people have the right to commit suicide over an issue of physical pain - for example, chemotherapy - then why not about an issue of mental pain?

You're going to be bereft of your freedom for the rest of your life.
You're going to live in a prison, with people who would likely do horrible things to you (I don't know how true the don't-drop-the-soap is in British prisons, I apologize if it is not).
You're going to be forever cut off from the people you love.

How is suicide NOT reasonable in this situation?

Ignoring and allowing people - who might very well be innocent, remember - to top themselves because of the situation they've been put in is hardly a mark of an advanced society.



If you think that an advanced society must force it's values on people, then I'm not with you. A society must merely enforce rights - to life, liberty, privacy and so forth. No particular order.

Suicide is the final human right.

If you're pushing me.

If you're torturing me.

If you're imprisoning me.

If I have nowhere else to go.

I can always quit life.

This is the final limit of the sadism and cruelty of manking - the endurance limit of it's victims.

A life sentence is a horrible experience. If somebody chooses to escape that by a means that doesn't put them back out in society, I see no reason to object. We should save medical and psychological care for those who can really benefit from it-those that have a hope of reform and reintegration into society.

In response to the legitimate question of potential innocents: if an innocent person is in prison at all, there has already been a moral failure. This doesn't contradict the idea of permitting prisoner suicide-it simply shows that the court system that sent that innocent person in needs reform.

Who are you to decide suicide is not a reasonable solution?

If you believe - as I do - that people have the right to commit suicide over an issue of physical pain - for example, chemotherapy - then why not about an issue of mental pain?

You're going to be bereft of your freedom for the rest of your life.
You're going to live in a prison, with people who would likely do horrible things to you (I don't know how true the don't-drop-the-soap is in British prisons, I apologize if it is not).
You're going to be forever cut off from the people you love.

How is suicide NOT reasonable in this situation?




If you think that an advanced society must force it's values on people, then I'm not with you. A society must merely enforce rights - to life, liberty, privacy and so forth. No particular order.

Suicide is the final human right.

If you're pushing me.

If you're torturing me.

If you're imprisoning me.

If I have nowhere else to go.

I can always quit life.

This is the final limit of the sadism and cruelty of manking - the endurance limit of it's victims.

So basically you're saying that if you walked in on someone hanging themself, you're just watch and let them die?

Because that's what you're advocating the Prison staff to do.

And that's a mark of a civilised society in your opinion?

Great place you want to live in. Great place.



In response to the legitimate question of potential innocents: if an innocent person is in prison at all, there has already been a moral failure. This doesn't contradict the idea of permitting prisoner suicide-it simply shows that the court system that sent that innocent person in needs reform.
I was thinking more of those people on remand - the ones waiting for their day in court. Some can be stuck in that limbo for months and months before finally getting to court and being found innocent.
That would be extremely hard to take for some. You'd spend that entire time with your life on hold, wondering daily whether you'll ever get out. Definitely a cause for suicidal tendancies there.

Something I feel a lot of you are missing is that these people have been placed in care of the prison system and it's a duty of the prison system to ensure their safety and well-being.
As a teacher, if I had a student that I felt was suffering from suicidal tendancies, it's my duty to report it. I can't just say, "Well, it's his (and it's nearly always his) right as a human being to top himself. I'll just ignore the signs and let him. mmmm...hope he doesn't do in class, cause it'd be a bugger to clean up."
Would you accept and support a teacher that acted like that?

If we allow the prisoner the 'right' to kill themself, we're not fulfilling the roles of prison to protect and maintain the prisoners wellbeing.
We may as well ignore and 'allow' rape and violence in prison while we're at it.

So basically you're saying that if you walked in on someone hanging themself, you're just watch and let them die?

Because that's what you're advocating the Prison staff to do.

I like the dramatization.

Which is BS.

Because I think I would probably try to talk them out of it, maybe even struggle with them.

But then if a person is in deep mental anguish, I think that eventually you should allow him the respect and dignity of making his own choice.

To create an artificial environment where suicide is utterly impossible - which is what prison wardens today sometimes do - is based on the assumption - idiotic - IMHO - that anybody who attempts suicide is insane, or an idiot.

That is not a civilised assumption.

A civilisation (from [civil]) is a society where people leave each other alone to some degree.

In most cases, the greater the degree, the greater the civilisation.

At first glance, I never understood why we try to prevent suicides under any circumstances. If people want to die, people should be allowed to die.

But, in prison this would just open the door to the prisons killing people and claiming it was suicide.

Simply re-impose the death penalty. Considerably cheaper, and, assuming a prudent legal procedure with sufficient obligatory appeals is implemented, more rational.