NationStates Jolt Archive

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

What makes you say that the matter had to come "from" somewhere? As far as I know it can't be destroyed or created. Hence it always existed.

hammerspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace)

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

The Big Question. I've read the theory that God had to exist because the Universe needed a first cause to start it, and with the Big Bang Theory that seems likely. Whether it had to be an all-powerful all-knowing all-good being like the western concept of God is debatable.

What makes you say that the matter had to come "from" somewhere? As far as I know it can't be destroyed or created. Hence it always existed.

how can it exist without being created?

Smple enough, the singularity that exploded making the universe.

Next question.

how can it exist without being created?

Be careful; causality is an attribute of our universe, but not necessarily of that which exists outside of our universe, if anything. Likewise for time. Whatever it is that formed the singularity just before the Big Bang was not necessarily tied to or governed by either causality or time.

Be careful; causality is an attribute of our universe, but not necessarily of that which exists outside of our universe, if anything. Likewise for time. Whatever it is that formed the singularity just before the Big Bang was not necessarily tied to or governed by either causality or time.

What is this "sigularity" and are you saying it could be something supernatural if it was outside our realm so to speak?

I think God used the Big Bang to create the Universe (Am intelligent Christians attempt to reconcile religon and science). As to where God came from, I haven't the foggiest. I personally believe that he has always been and always will be (The Alpha and the Omega) However I accpet that that's a terrible answer and one i would not accept myself as a non-believer.

What is this "sigularity" and are you saying it could be something supernatural if it was outside our realm so to speak?
The singularity is the currently working theory of what actually exploded. Technically it was a super-singularity, being far larger than they would be normally (about the size of a grapefruit IIRC). Inside it was packed all the matter that would, eventually, become the universe as we know it. Or at least the energy that would transform into the matter of the universe.

It's supernatural upon the basis that because everything we know, the laws of science and such, assume that the universe is in existance and the universe covers everything (being, well, everything) we have no way of looking outside of it to see if the laws, like cause and effect, function the same way that they do inside the universe.

So, in a way, it is supernatural because it does go beyond what is natural in our world. But it only does so because it is truly beyond it and does not imply the need for God or other divine intervention.

What is this "sigularity" ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

What makes you say that the matter had to come "from" somewhere? As far as I know it can't be destroyed or created. Hence it always existed.

You're thinking of energy.
Matter can be both created and destroyed.

how can it exist without being created?

funnily enough, a question often asked about god

but i figure that if it works for god, why can't it work for matter/energy and time/space? it's just always been there

either that or the universe doesnt exist.

The singularity is the currently working theory of what actually exploded. Technically it was a super-singularity, being far larger than they would be normally (about the size of a grapefruit IIRC). Inside it was packed all the matter that would, eventually, become the universe as we know it. Or at least the energy that would transform into the matter of the universe.

It's supernatural upon the basis that because everything we know, the laws of science and such, assume that the universe is in existance and the universe covers everything (being, well, everything) we have no way of looking outside of it to see if the laws, like cause and effect, function the same way that they do inside the universe.

So, in a way, it is supernatural because it does go beyond what is natural in our world. But it only does so because it is truly beyond it and does not imply the need for God or other divine intervention.
Exactly. In their defense, however, this is quite the difficult concept to grasp at first. I myself had trouble with it. After all, we live in this universe: conceptualizing the laws of physics we exist by not actually applying in some instances isn't an easy thing to do.

I just wish we are able to do more in terms of proving or disproving this hypothesis.

....my ass?

....my ass?

All hail Minortieeburg's ass!

Allah Buttbar!

....my ass?

the big bang must've hurt a bit...

....my ass?

That explain the smell of the universe. So, does that mean that Uranus is the centre of the universe?

All hail Minortieeburg's ass!

Allah Buttbar!

All Hail the sigged quote!

All Hail the sigged quote!

Its really gonna put a new spin on "Make a Joyful noise unto the Lord".

Holy Flatulence.

the big bang must've hurt a bit...

Had quite a few nachos that day with easy cheese.

Its really gonna put a new spin on "Make a Joyful noise unto the Lord".

Holy Flatulence.

*makes a joyful noise to the lord*

That explain the smell of the universe.

Nachos and easy cheese?

Be careful; causality is an attribute of our universe, but not necessarily of that which exists outside of our universe, if anything. Likewise for time. Whatever it is that formed the singularity just before the Big Bang was not necessarily tied to or governed by either causality or time.


More than that, even in our universe, things on the quantum level do not have causality. God plays dice, as it were.

More than that, even in our universe, things on the quantum level do not have causality. God plays dice, as it were.

So when do we figure out how to make Heisenburg compensators?

More than that, even in our universe, things on the quantum level do not have causality. God plays dice, as it were.

god plays dice? i wonder if he knows ashy larry....

http://myspace-262.vo.llnwd.net/00015/26/23/15143262_l.jpg

Nachos and easy cheese?

Yeah, I have always wondered why I always have a urge to eat nachos, but now i know. Thank you mighty Minoriteeburg for opening my eyes!

As on the real topic. If the univerese was created by God (that is Minoriteeburg), who created God?

Yeah, I have always wondered why I always have a urge to eat nachos, but now i know. Thank you mighty Minoriteeburg for opening my eyes!

As on the real topic. If the univerese was created by God (that is Minoriteeburg), who created God?

That is a good question.....

hammerspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace)

i was going to make the obvious joke, but it turns out wiki did it for me

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?
It came from His Holiness, Chuck Norris. We all know that.

Seriously, though, trying to apply logic to singularities and the big bang and God and quantum mechanics is the most self-defeating task in the world.

Here's what I like about God: He won't explain to us how the hell he could just always exist, and we can't understand anything that isn't based on causality. It's good to be hopelessly confused sometimes. It reminds even the smartasses about humility.

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

A marble bag.

Yeah, I have always wondered why I always have a urge to eat nachos, but now i know. Thank you mighty Minoriteeburg for opening my eyes!

As on the real topic. If the univerese was created by God (that is Minoriteeburg), who created God?

minoriteeburg's parents.


so, what's easy cheese??
processed cheesy stuff?

minoriteeburg's parents.


so, what's easy cheese??
processed cheesy stuff?

Disgusting American-made shit not worth feeding to flies, let alone people.

It came from His Holiness, Chuck Norris. We all know that.

Seriously, though, trying to apply logic to singularities and the big bang and God and quantum mechanics is the most self-defeating task in the world.

Here's what I like about God: He won't explain to us how the hell he could just always exist, and we can't understand anything that isn't based on causality. It's good to be hopelessly confused sometimes. It reminds even the smartasses about humility.

but that's excatly what i DONT like about god. humans are naturally intelligent, curious creatures, and instinct is to find out about what is happening around us. i like to know stuff, and stuff i don't know, i want to find out. i want to know that there is a possibility that we will discover how we all came to be, even if its not in my lifetime.

i can't believe [or maybe just dont want to believe] that we are not hardwired to understand the universe, just because god won't let us.

how do you know the universe even exists?

sure "i think therefore i am", but there is no way to prove it; all knolege is based on assumption at some level.

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

as i understand it, Professor Hawkings et al now think the Big Bang was created by the random intersection of two dimensions of reality. ie (as i understand it) the dimension for space (up, down, left, right) and the dimension for the plane of time colliding together to form a dimension of reality with the four dimensions we live in today - the 3D of space, and the 4thD of time.
i think there are supposed to be 11 dimensions overall, iirc, but our universe is a joining of just 4 of them.


or something like that

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?
God only knows!!!! :D

Well, see...

When two Universes love each other very much, the male universe puts his....

i was going to make the obvious joke, but it turns out wiki did it for me

Hammerspace should not be confused with Hammertime.

I just had to.

as i understand it, Professor Hawkings et al now think the Big Bang was created by the random intersection of two dimensions of reality. ie (as i understand it) the dimension for space (up, down, left, right) and the dimension for the plane of time colliding together to form a dimension of reality with the four dimensions we live in today - the 3D of space, and the 4thD of time.
i think there are supposed to be 11 dimensions overall, iirc, but our universe is a joining of just 4 of them.


or something like that

It's something to do with our universe sitting on a higherdimensional plane (brane) which is intersecting with other branes. When our universe's moving position hits a 'goldilocks' zone the big bang style thingy happens and we invent teapots. Or possibly not.

I paraphrase Ian&Jack when I say it's hard to explaing the universe in a language originally designed to scream defiance at the monkeys in the next tree.

Well, if you believe in the Laws of conservation of matter and energy as I do, it becomes obvious that either: 1)The matter and energy of the universe had already existed before the creaton of it. 2) Someone found a way around the laws of conservation.

The first choice doesnt really answer the question, merely pulls it back a bit. If the universe is a cyclical expansion and contraction of matter and energy across spacetime, then that still doesn't answer the question ofhow the cycle started.

That leaves us with the second choice. Somehow, someone or something has found a way to add matter and energy into the system. Parhaps this is done cyclically. Perhaps with each contraction and re-expansion of the universe, more matter and energy is added. Perhaps each universe is more complex than the last. Nevertheless, that matter and energy had to come from somewhere. The question is: Where?

The answer is thought. The universe is a construct of someone's mind. Each cycle of expansion and contraction is a rethinking of this imaginary universe we inhabit. Our lives, deaths and the lives and deaths of a trillion billion suns all occur in a few moments of subjective time to the being whose thought we occupy.

We are the figments of a deranged imagination. :)

Well, if you believe in the Laws of conservation of matter and energy as I do, it becomes obvious that either: 1)The matter and energy of the universe had already existed before the creaton of it. 2) Someone found a way around the laws of conservation.

The first choice doesnt really answer the question, merely pulls it back a bit. If the universe is a cyclical expansion and contraction of matter and energy across spacetime, then that still doesn't answer the question ofhow the cycle started.

That leaves us with the second choice. Somehow, someone or something has found a way to add matter and energy into the system. Parhaps this is done cyclically. Perhaps with each contraction and re-expansion of the universe, more matter and energy is added. Perhaps each universe is more complex than the last. Nevertheless, that matter and energy had to come from somewhere. The question is: Where?

The answer is thought. The universe is a construct of someone's mind. Each cycle of expansion and contraction is a rethinking of this imaginary universe we inhabit. Our lives, deaths and the lives and deaths of a trillion billion suns all occur in a few moments of subjective time to the being whose thought we occupy.

We are the figments of a deranged imagination. :)

Why is it that when you talk serious, it frightens me just a wee bit?

Why is it that when you talk serious, it frightens me just a wee bit?

It's all part of my motto: Comfort the Disturbed, Disturb the Comfortable. Just as you're getting comfortable with the thought that I'm a silly spammy goofball, I sweep the rug out from under you, wrap you in it and toss you into the river. :)

Or there's the more frightening possibility that I'm the one doing the thinking here. :eek:

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere.

Starting with a claim that people won't agree on isn't a good start. The matter didn't "come from" anywhere. It was there at the start - that's my understanding of big bang theory. The big bang didn't make matter, it just spread it around.

It's all part of my motto: Comfort the Disturbed, Disturb the Comfortable. Just as you're getting comfortable with the thought that I'm a silly spammy goofball, I sweep the rug out from under you, wrap you in it and toss you into the river. :)

Or there's the more frightening possibility that I'm the one doing the thinking here. :eek:

Well, dont get me wrong, a Goofball you my be, but Ive never found you to be less than profound.

Even if it was profoundly crackers.....

Its the intensity of the polar opposites that gives me the tiniest bit of the heebie-jeebies..

Perhaps it speaks of the duality of man, or the fine line between genius and madness...

Hmm...

Well, dont get me wrong, a Goofball you my be, but Ive never found you to be less than profound.

Even if it was profoundly crackers.....

Its the intensity of the polar opposites that gives me the tiniest bit of the heebie-jeebies..

Perhaps it speaks of the duality of man, or the fine line between genius and madness...

Hmm...

The difference between genius and madness is only whether you are on the recieving end of the pie or not.

According to physics, there are an infinite number of universes going around in donut-shaped "membranes" out there in the 11th dimension. Every time they whack, a new universe is formed from a singularity (which essentially is a really big black hole). Where all of the donuts came from... they just say thy were always there (along with the energy "sheets" and stuff, but who cares about those?).

Basically, our universe started when our donut smashed into another one. And the donuts were "always there."

Well, dont get me wrong, a Goofball you my be, but Ive never found you to be less than profound.

Even if it was profoundly crackers.....

Its the intensity of the polar opposites that gives me the tiniest bit of the heebie-jeebies..

Perhaps it speaks of the duality of man, or the fine line between genius and madness...

Hmm...

It's my versatility; I can both spin and rotate. See?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-006.gif

I don't think anyone can truly understand the concept of where we came from.

According to physics, there are an infinite number of universes going around in donut-shaped "membranes" out there in the 11th dimension. Every time they whack, a new universe is formed from a singularity (which essentially is a really big black hole). Where all of the donuts came from... they just say thy were always there (along with the energy "sheets" and stuff, but who cares about those?).

Basically, our universe started when our donut smashed into another one. And the donuts were "always there."

Mmmm...self-replicating donuts... *drool*

Then where did the first two donuts come from?

Mmmm...self-replicating donuts... *drool*

Then where did the first two donuts come from?

DONUTS DO NOT SELF-REPLICATE. They contain universes...

As for their origin, "they always existed".

as i understand it, Professor Hawkings et al now think the Big Bang was created by the random intersection of two dimensions of reality. ie (as i understand it) the dimension for space (up, down, left, right) and the dimension for the plane of time colliding together to form a dimension of reality with the four dimensions we live in today - the 3D of space, and the 4thD of time.
i think there are supposed to be 11 dimensions overall, iirc, but our universe is a joining of just 4 of them.


or something like that

i thought the 11 dimensions were something to do with string theory - i guess wikipedia knows more than me, but its something like that the universe is made up of vibrating strands of energy, which are curled around into a further 6 dimensions. (there's one left. i dont know what that dimension is for)

DONUTS DO NOT SELF-REPLICATE. They contain universes...

As for their origin, "they always existed".

So it's more like immortal donuts having hot donut sex?

*reads about the banging self-replicating donuts* You know, this is why I never went into high level phyics and also why I stick with what happened AFTER the Big Bang. This is starting to give me a headache.

That and the idea of LG being anywhere near the universe donut scares the hell out of me. ;)

(there's one left. i dont know what that dimension is for)
That's Hammerspace.

So it's more like immortal donuts having hot donut sex?

Wich brings much new needed light when thinking of a "Glazed" donut.

I don't think anyone can truly understand the concept of where we came from.

but we should never give up trying to understand
just in case we do have the capability for it [which i really hope we do]

Wich brings much new needed light when thinking of a "Glazed" donut.
I will NEVER be able to eat a glazed donut EVER again!

In the words of the Duck, "You're dispicable!"

*reads about the banging self-replicating donuts* You know, this is why I never went into high level phyics and also why I stick with what happened AFTER the Big Bang. This is starting to give me a headache.

That and the idea of LG being anywhere near the universe donut scares the hell out of me. ;)

It is believed that all theoretical physicists are insane; that it comes with the job. I love theoretical physics. :)

Wich brings much new needed light when thinking of a "Glazed" donut.

I just hope we're not in some cosmic condom somewhere. :p

I will NEVER be able to eat a glazed donut EVER again!

In the words of the Duck, "You're dispicable!"



*Bows*


Its good to have a purpose in life.

I just hope we're not in some cosmic condom somewhere. :p

If anything, I think humanity is the stain on the cosmic mattress...if ya follow me....

If anything, I think humanity is the stain on the cosmic mattress...if ya follow me....

No interdimensional tubesock?

No interdimensional tubesock?



Well, if by that, you mean we may be an after-effect of something else, and possibly an embarrassment to its possible creator, if his parents find it under his bed.....maybe.

God's Spankercheif, perhaps?

Well, if by that, you mean we may be an after-effect of something else, and possibly an embarrassment to its possible creator, if his parents find it under his bed.....maybe.

God's Spankercheif, perhaps?

God's Porno magazines must either be really good, or really bad.

God's Porno magazines must either be really good, or really bad.

Well considering the Puritans.....really bad.

If you ask the Catholics.....even worse...

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?
As has been noted, it always existed. To say that it came from somewhere is to say that existence exists apart from existence. That is self-contradictory.

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

Well, you see, when a mommy universe and a daddy universe really like each other...

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

The previous universe, after a black hole grew to enormous size, sucking everything in. That black hole couldn't hold it all in, and voila. Big bang. Where' that universe came from? Same thing probably. Where the one that made that came from? Same thing. And so on and so forth. Don't ask me where the original universe came from. The higher power obviously, but don't ask me where he/she/it came from.

Actually, I have a theory that the original matter out of which the universe was created came... from another universe.

Now your going to ask me where that universe came from? Ha! Let the bastards figure out their own origins.

Actually, I have a theory that the original matter out of which the universe was created came... from another universe.

Now your going to ask me where that universe came from? Ha! Let the bastards figure out their own origins.

What I just said.

What I just said.

No, no, you're talking about an earlier universe. I'm talking about an alternate universe. Which also happens to be earlier, but still, different.

Id answer your question, but your human brain has the ability to understand it in the same way a spider understands Monopoly.

Id answer your question, but your human brain has the ability to understand it in the same way a spider understands Monopoly.

So, all these years when I was playing monopoly with Shelob...?

We're really just a massive Sims game under a file labled 'Universe' :D

We're really just a massive Sims game under a file labled 'Universe' :D

If that's true why don't I perfectly square myself when doing actions and loop the things I'm currently typing?

Cause we are running on Xbox 4 Billion.

If that's true why don't I perfectly square myself when doing actions and loop the things I'm currently typing?

Sims Google, it has a brand new realism generator. They won't even realize that they're a program.

We must be a glitch.

nowhere. it always existed and always will.

nowhere. it always existed and always will.

Oh yeah? Were you there?

An infinitely small, infinitely dense bit of matter. It has always existed.

As has been noted, it always existed. To say that it came from somewhere is to say that existence exists apart from existence. That is self-contradictory.

but how is it possible for something to always exist?

but how is it possible for something to always exist?

Bubble gum.

And if that makes sense to you, I advise you to seek counseling immediately.

You're thinking of energy.
Matter can be both created and destroyed.

Matter can be neither created nor destroyed. However, matter does tranform into heat energy via entropy, which is why we say it can't be destroyed. Because it tranforms into energy.\




EDIT: Google "Conservation of Energy"

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

He pulled it out of his ass. Happy now?

Smple enough, the singularity that exploded making the universe.

Next question.

Our universe didnt come from singularity but it was singularity itself at its first stages. So Soviestan's question is still valid.
About who created GOD. Considering it's so supernatural, GOD doesnt need a creator. GOD was always there. Then why cant we say universe was always there as well, instead of requiring GOD? Because we know universe had a beginning. Most scientist agree with that and explain it with big bang theory.

Our universe didnt come from singularity but it was singularity itself at its first stages. So Soviestan's question is still valid.
About who created GOD. Considering it's so supernatural, GOD doesnt need a creator. GOD was always there. Then why cant we say universe was always there as well, instead of requiring GOD? Because we know universe had a beginning. Most scientist agree with that and explain it with big bang theory.

Riiight. And the big band theory requires that there was matter there beforehand. So why can't we say that the matter that was there before the big bang was always there?

but how is it possible for something to always exist?
Because non-existence isn't a different type of existence. Only something can exist.

Some people may not like Ayn Rand, but her summation of metaphysics--Existence Exists--is undeniably correct. Only existence can exist. So something must always be.

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

does it matter? Not knowing or not being able to understand how the universe came to be is not a bad thing,.....somethings we will never know and this is one of those scientific things that just don't matter.....

God-why whenever there is something humans can't comprehend that have to attribute it to a "God"-when thunder and lightening first scared the crap out of early man it was attributed to a "god"; drought's, volcano's , floods, famines everything was gods work- one by one as nature's mysterys are solved and understood people still try cling to a god belief by moving to the next of nature's unexplained mysterys as proof of gods exsistance-ignorance is not proof of a god-

Riiight. And the big band theory requires that there was matter there beforehand. So why can't we say that the matter that was there before the big bang was always there?

No, big bang theory doesnt require that.

I know planets and things formed from matter but the matter had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from. And if God did it, where did he come from? Any ideas?

We don't know. We've got some ideas, but we're still looking into it. Not a good enough answer? Make up one like "god did it".

We don't know. We've got some ideas, but we're still looking into it. Not a good enough answer? Make up one like "god did it".

Thank God there's still some beer left in the refrigerator...

but how is it possible for something to always exist?

Because in Big Bang theory time starts at the exact instant the singularity starts expanding. There was no time "before" the big bang. Always means during the entire span of time. The span of time starts when a singularity expands into the early universe, therefore the universe was always there.

I think. I'm not a physicist, just read about it. We don't know for sure is the best answer so far.

I think. I'm not a physicist, just read about it. We don't know for sure is the best answer so far.


Stop talking and run down to the store and bring back more beer...

Because in Big Bang theory time starts at the exact instant the singularity starts expanding. There was no time "before" the big bang. Always means during the entire span of time. The span of time starts when a singularity expands into the early universe, therefore the universe was always there.

I think. I'm not a physicist, just read about it. We don't know for sure is the best answer so far.

Universe was always there when we consider the span of time within our universe. So it's still relative.

Stop talking and run down to the store and bring back more beer...

It's noon. That's no time for beer. I'll grab some gin, dry vermouth and olives for the traditiional 4 martini lunch.