NationStates Jolt Archive

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

Silly Rabbit, everyone on this forum is Amish, and as such has never heard of this "airplne".

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?
I assume your analogy is of the human conscious "me". If so, then it remains the same no matter how many pieces of the mind or body are replaced.

Damnit, I clicked the wrong one.:mad:

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

Question is, does identity matter? If it does not, then who cares which airplane it is?

Silly Rabbit, everyone on this forum is Amish, and as such has never heard of this "airplne".

For Shame Jebedia!

Thou art posting on the Devil's Intra-net!

Wait!

Im doing it too!

Damned we be!

Question is, does identity matter? If it does not, then who cares which airplane it is?

It is possible to care about things that don't matter...

It is possible to care about things that don't matter...

That's not the point I am trying to make, and you know it.

That's not the point I am trying to make, and you know it.

You were trying to make a point?:p

Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?It is in some ways, it isn't in others.
In some ways a plane is not the same from one second to the next, even if no parts are replaced. In another way two planes can be the same.

I think the material of the human body gets replaced some 11 times throughout someones life. Are you the person you were 7 years ago, or are you just going by the same name?

Because it seems like there's alot of Amish on the internet, Try using the older one about the axe where the blade breaks, and is replaced, then the handle breaks and is replaced. When does it become a new Axe, is it ever a new axe, etc. etc.

I'd have to say, with each replacement done, it's a new object in toto.

It is in some ways, it isn't in others.
In some ways a plane is not the same from one second to the next, even if no parts are replaced. In another way two planes can be the same.

I think the material of the human body gets replaced some 11 times throughout someones life. Are you the person you were 7 years ago, or are you just going by the same name?

*MOST* parts of the human body are replaced, but most of the brain is with you until you die.

Moving back to the airplane, it could be said that after a critical part of the plane is replaced, it is no longer the same plane.

I'd go with the fuselage.

It is in some ways, it isn't in others.
In some ways a plane is not the same from one second to the next, even if no parts are replaced. In another way two planes can be the same.

I think the material of the human body gets replaced some 11 times throughout someones life. Are you the person you were 7 years ago, or are you just going by the same name?


Brain cells (and most other nerv cells) don't get replaced the same way that the rest of the body. Since who you are is in the brain (or soul if you believe in that), you are the same even if the rest of the bodies cells have been replaced.

Of course, you can also change who you are, when you get new experiences. But that is another story :)

At each moment in time, the Airplane is a single object, anything existing in the past or the future are seperate objects.

Sorry, just felt this wasn't getting philosophical enough :p

It is in some ways, it isn't in others.
In some ways a plane is not the same from one second to the next, even if no parts are replaced. In another way two planes can be the same.

I think the material of the human body gets replaced some 11 times throughout someones life. Are you the person you were 7 years ago, or are you just going by the same name?
People change a lot in seven years. I am, in fact, just going by the same name.
Because it seems like there's alot of Amish on the internet, Try using the older one about the axe where the blade breaks, and is replaced, then the handle breaks and is replaced. When does it become a new Axe, is it ever a new axe, etc. etc.

I'd have to say, with each replacement done, it's a new object in toto.
It is indeed.
*MOST* parts of the human body are replaced, but most of the brain is with you until you die.

Moving back to the airplane, it could be said that after a critical part of the plane is replaced, it is no longer the same plane.

I'd go with the fuselage.
I took it to mean that was replaced as well.
Brain cells (and most other nerv cells) don't get replaced the same way that the rest of the body. Since who you are is in the brain (or soul if you believe in that), you are the same even if the rest of the bodies cells have been replaced.

Of course, you can also change who you are, when you get new experiences. But that is another story :)

No, it's equally significant.


And the answer is yes and no.

At each moment in time, the Airplane is a single object, anything existing in the past or the future are seperate objects.

Sorry, just felt this wasn't getting philosophical enough :p

Thank you.:D [/Philosophy major] :p

Moving back to the airplane, it could be said that after a critical part of the plane is replaced, it is no longer the same plane.

I'd go with the fuselage.As soon as you give a criterion of 'sameness', the question is pretty much trivial. Of course, the question was finding a measure of 'sameness' not applying one.
You could also look at things like 'processes', having a continuity from past to present to future. They may change, but they remain the same proces. A bit of a conundrum if the process splits in two though.
If a bacteria divides, is either of two resulting cells the original?

Brain cells (and most other nerv cells) don't get replaced the same way that the rest of the body.True, but most molecules of the brain cells do get replaced.

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

The id plate that was fastened to the aircraft, when it is built, is the mark of uniqueness. You can replace every part, but that ID plate and the aircraft is still, technically, the same one that rolled off the assembly line.

Now, if you modify any of those pieces, you are headed into experimental aircraft territory

Does the airplane consider itself the same?

Does the airplane consider itself the same?

Yes and no.

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

If Vinnie Vertens oxitarianized the gay fobanizer down by the old gas house would Stan Tam have the same gay fobanizer as Billy Boop who wigited the digit of his gay fobanizer?

A hurricane sucks water out of the Atlantic Ocean, then dumps it on unsuspecting tourists visiting tropical islands. The water floods houses and streets, eventually running down sewer drains (on those advanced islands that have sewers) and finds its way back to the ocean.

Is it still the Atlantic Ocean?

Citizens of any country, for instance France, are born and die at an alarming rate. Within 100 years, virtually all the people of that country have changed.

Is the group of people still the population of France?


I think (about the plane) that as each new piece is integrated, it becomes part of the original plane. So the identity of the plane as a whole remains, even though the parts are new.


However, the MEANING of that identity may have changed.

I haven't seen Pirates of the Caribbean for a while, so I don't know the exact quote, but Jack Sparrow says something about a keel, a hull, and sails being what a ship means, but not what a ship is.

And in the Chronicles of Narnia: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Eustace says that stars are balls of hot burning gas, millions upon millions of miles away. Ramandu (a star) replies that "even in your [our] world, that is what a star is made of, not what a star is."

That's my answer.

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

It's supposed to be a boat, not a plane. Stupid paradox.

"This old broom's had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time."

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

It depends. if the pieces replaced are exactly the same.

in other words...
the engines are not "improved"
the fuel pumps are not "More Efficent"
the electronics not upgraded.

Everything is replaced, model for model, part number for part number... then yes.

There is this airplane.
Thoughout the years, pieces of the airplane were replaced for similar ones.
Until one day, every single piece of the airplane was replaced.
Is it the same airplane or some other? Why?

It's the same airplane. Why? Because the airplane's existence is defined by two things; It's physical characteristics, and who owns it. Since certain characteristics can change even if nothing else changes, we have to only consider certain characteristics such as shape, markings and capabilities. If those charateristics haven't changed, and the owner considers it the same plane, then it's the same plane.

It's the same airplane. Why? Because the airplane's existence is defined by two things; It's physical characteristics, and who owns it. Since certain characteristics can change even if nothing else changes, we have to only consider certain characteristics such as shape, markings and capabilities. If those charateristics haven't changed, and the owner considers it the same plane, then it's the same plane.

*agrees*

For Shame Jebedia!

Thou art posting on the Devil's Intra-net!

Wait!

Im doing it too!

Damned we be!

tis alright, ezekiel. i have replaced all the buttons on my keyboard with hook and eyes. there is no sin here.

Is it still the Atlantic Ocean?
Yes, but that's all the same water, too. Now, if you pumped all that water out and put in water from somewhere else like Mars...................................................You'd still have the Atlantic Ocean, just composed of different water.
It depends. if the pieces replaced are exactly the same.

in other words...
the engines are not "improved"
the fuel pumps are not "More Efficent"
the electronics not upgraded.

Everything is replaced, model for model, part number for part number... then yes.
But the parts aren't exactly the same parts. In fact, the parts it had were never the same at any given moment. It was never one plane, but many.
It's the same airplane. Why? Because the airplane's existence is defined by two things; It's physical characteristics, and who owns it. Since certain characteristics can change even if nothing else changes, we have to only consider certain characteristics such as shape, markings and capabilities. If those charateristics haven't changed, and the owner considers it the same plane, then it's the same plane.

But the physical characteristics did change. Even assuming the change in the parts from use didn't matter, the new parts put on the plane weren't exactly the same as the other parts when they were new. They aren't identical. And not being identical, though they may function in a similar manner, they won't function in an identical manner. You may not be able to trace the difference, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. That's when you question whether or not it really matters at all if it's the same plane. If it can do what is demanded of it, who really cares?

And why does ownership define it? Is it not the same plane no matter who uses it? You might identify it by a different means, but it doesn't change the fact that it hasn't inherently changed as a result of a change of hands.