NationStates Jolt Archive

www.alternet.org/bloggers/evan/40755/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cli...ene_Curtis

www.americanfreepress.net...tolen.html

www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS...index.html

I'd like to hear what everyone here thinks about these things.

The first link is of a programmer testifying that a congressman of Florida asked him to make a program that would essentially rig the elections.

Second is for those who want background info on the guy who's testifying.

Third is an overview of the situation.

Fourth is an article on the woman in charge of the 2000 recount. She's incredibly ignorant and very biased towards Bush.

Discuss.

Also adding in the fact that I've never seen anything on the news or read anything on any website about any of this until today. I'd think the testimony would be somewhat relevant - adding onto the topic, what everyone's opinion of why this wasn't a bigger deal in the media.

Also adding in the fact that I've never seen anything on the news or read anything on any website about any of this until today. I'd think the testimony would be somewhat relevant - adding onto the topic, what everyone's opinion of why this wasn't a bigger deal in the media.

Because the media themselves did a manual recount which showed Bush won.

:headbang: The Democrats lost the election, get over it and prepare for 2008!

Because the media themselves did a manual recount which showed Bush won.

Believe it or not, I'm not all that worried if Bush wins or not - the fact that they made an EFFORT to fix the damn election is disturbing to me.

:headbang: The Democrats lost the election, get over it and prepare for 2008!

Way to ignore all evidence and insist everyone else do the same.

Way to ignore all evidence and insist everyone else do the same.

That because the evidence is Bull. Trust me if there was any evidence at all the Democrats, CNN, all media outlet would be running the story 24/7.

That because the evidence is Bull. Trust me if there was any evidence at all the Democrats, CNN, all media outlet would be running the story 24/7.:rolleyes:
And risk losing 30-something % of their ratings? Face it, too large a portion of the voting constituency wouldn't give a flying fuck how their candidate won.

That because the evidence is Bull. Trust me if there was any evidence at all the Democrats, CNN, all media outlet would be running the story 24/7.

Well, that's apparently not true, because the first link has a video they could've run on CNN on loop, and I've never seen it or heard of it before.

Wasn't this 6 years ago?

The election was six years ago. The testimony was two years ago. Does it matter? They arrest murderers after they're caught regardless of when the murder took place.

*bump*

*bump*

Err... just so you know, the mods tend to take a dim view of bumping too frequently. And 30 minutes after the OP is way soon for you to need to do it.

Well, that's apparently not true, because the first link has a video they could've run on CNN on loop, and I've never seen it or heard of it before.

Perchance they aren't running it because it's BS? From this article (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/09/State/Blogs_spin_tale_of_co.shtml), (which shows, BTW, that it's not been ignored by the media as you claim) it appears the person making the allegations is simply a disgruntled former employee, with a history of making specious accusations (as well as a theft). That he was so late in making this particular allegation also makes it suspect.

Err... just so you know, the mods tend to take a dim view of bumping too frequently. And 30 minutes after the OP is way soon for you to need to do it.



Perchance they aren't running it because it's BS? From this article (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/09/State/Blogs_spin_tale_of_co.shtml), (which shows, BTW, that it's not been ignored by the media as you claim) it appears the person making the allegations is simply a disgruntled former employee, with a history of making specious accusations (as well as a theft). That he was so late in making this particular allegation also makes it suspect.

Yeah, the second and third link explains the former employee part. He got fired because he blew the whistle on some sketchy shit the company was doing.

The problem is, this is way too late. If there was definite proof of fraud it should have been brought before the FEC in 2001 or 2002 at latest, not six years later. The election was certified as valid in 2000 and no one brought a case before anyone in the years between the two elections; even the 2004 elections had nothing in terms of fraud cases and no one did a thing about it; to make it even less convincing, this testimony about the software is two years old and nothing was done about it.

That leads me to doubt that there was any major wrongdoing in either election; if there is not enough evidence to bring the case before court, it's nothing more than partisan politics. There simply is no evidence to back up claims of election-affecting fraud; there were problems but these problems stemmed from both Republican and Democrat criminals trying to affect the vote...neither party was free of troublemakers.

Even so, Bush only has 2 years left. I'm pretty sure he's long since stopped caring about the elections or his approval ratings. Honestly, he's sunk to a level of incompetence that makes his actions in the elections irrelevant...we just want him out of there.

we wanted klintoon out but had to put up with him, the antibush crowd needs to do the same - too bad so sad

we wanted klintoon out but had to put up with him, the antibush crowd needs to do the same - too bad so sad

The ratio of intelligent, literate democrats I run into on a daily basis vs the dumbass democrats: 10-1.

Ratio of intelligent, literate republicans I run into on a daily basis vs the dumbass republicans: 4-1, on a good day.

Really.

Has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I thought I'd just point that out.


Regardless, about it being too late and therefore must be bunk, it's bull. The idea that just because something happened a while ago and hasn't been figured out yet and therefore nothing but be wrong with it is completely idiotic.

:rolleyes:
And risk losing 30-something % of their ratings? Face it, too large a portion of the voting constituency wouldn't give a flying fuck how their candidate won.

Gee... the Media won't run something against Bush? because of RATINGS?!?!
Something that shows the Government is cheating? and they won't run it because people won't watch a government scandal?

let me be the first to say... "Welcome to Earth!" :D :D :D

The ratio of intelligent, literate democrats I run into on a daily basis vs the dumbass democrats: 10-1.

Ratio of intelligent, literate republicans I run into on a daily basis vs the dumbass republicans: 4-1, on a good day.

Really.

Has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I thought I'd just point that out. and I would like to point out...
The ratio of dumbass Democrats I run into on a daily basis vs the Literate, Intelligent Democrats: 15 - 2

Ratio of Literate, Intelligent Republicans I run into on a daily basis vs the Dumbass Republicans: 10-1, on a good day.

and also...

the percentage of people I run into that care about any supposed cheating on the 2000 elections... 0% on both Democrat and Republican sides.

I got a better one::D

The ratio of intelligent, literate democrats I run into on a daily basis vs the dumbass democrats: 10-1.

Ratio of intelligent, literate republicans I run into on a daily basis vs the dumbass republicans: 20:2.

You really made yourself look like an idiot with that post Szanth. You also showed that you seem to like labeling people who disagree with you as idiots.

the percentage of people I run into that care about any supposed cheating on the 2000 elections... 0% on both Democrat and Republican sides.

I find that quite disturbing. Americans should care about something as important as that.

:headbang: The Democrats lost the election, get over it and prepare for 2008!

Annnd... If for some reason the Republicans win all the seats again after doing all the corrupt things they've recently did it has to be because everyone chose them?

I'm sorry but if NO republican is ousted in this next election then it is rigged because even an complete Idiot would know by now that the current group of Slime we have are no good.

Annnd... If for some reason the Republicans win all the seats again after doing all the corrupt things they've recently did it has to be because everyone chose them?

I'm sorry but if NO republican is ousted in this next election then it is rigged because even an complete Idiot would know by now that the current group of Slime we have are no good.

I wouldn't say that anything is rigged if no republican is outed. I would say that people realize that replacing slime with slime doesn't do any good.

Annnd... If for some reason the Republicans win all the seats again after doing all the corrupt things they've recently did it has to be because everyone chose them?

I'm sorry but if NO republican is ousted in this next election then it is rigged because even an complete Idiot would know by now that the current group of Slime we have are no good.
either that, or the people the Democrats are offereing are worse (in the minds of the voters) than the criminals already in office.

"Better the devil you know..."

either that, or the people the Democrats are offereing are worse (in the minds of the voters) than the criminals already in office.

"Better the devil you know..."

Or, as a rather old joke goes;

Why is it better to have a Republican crook in office than a bleeding heart liberal Democrat?

Becaus the crook can never steal as much as the liberal will give away.

We must keep fighting for the truth even after the Democrats win in 2008 - the fight is not about parties; it must be about the violation and abuse of the Constitution.

History, in time, will decide a bloodless coup via election fraud was what happened in 2000 in Florida.

We must keep fighting for the truth even after the Democrats win in 2008 - the fight is not about parties; it must be about the violation and abuse of the Constitution.

History, in time, will decide a bloodless coup via election fraud was what happened in 2000 in Florida.

Fraud is in the eyes of the beholder....

You want to see fraud because that is what lets your world make sense. There was no fraud.

Firstly: This argument seems entirely moot, especially since Bush's maximum term of office is already two-thirds up. This election has been put to bed for six years, and to dredge it up now as a tired old conversation starter will only bring about the vitriolic slinging of partisan mud that we've already seen in this thread.

Secondly: Was there tampering in Florida in 2000? It's possible, I guess, but I doubt it. Election fraud is simply too difficult in this country; there are far too many people hanging on the outcome of each and every vote for any level of fraud to be tolerated. Besides, everyone knows that the Republican Party is terrible at covering up their political malfeasances (see "Nixon, Richard, 1972-74").

Thirdly: The decision to hand the election over to the Supreme Court for a ruling was entirely inappropriate. Florida's electors, based on their own conscience, should have abstained from their Electoral College voting privileges because of the nightmarish voting circumstances in their state; in such a case, neither Gore nor Bush would have had a majority of the electoral vote. If I may quote the United States Constitution, a document that I happen to take rather seriously: "if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House [of Representatives] shall in like Manner chuse [choose] the President" (Article II, Section 1). The Republicans controlled the House at that time, so the Oval Office would have gone to Bush anyway, but still...involving SCOTUS was an egregious breach of protocol.

Finally: George W. Bush was simply the beneficiary of good luck (and Al Gore was in like manner the victim of bad luck). It just so happened that the U.S. Supreme Court got to decide the outcome of the 2000 Presidential election (sort of), and it just so happened that, at that time, the Supreme Court was comprised of five conservatives and four liberals. These justices (quite reasonably, in my opinion) voted for the candidate that would most likely advance similar agendas to their own; hence, President Bush and he-thinks-he's-President Gore. Had the situation been reversed, with five liberals and four conservatives, it might well have been President Gore, with the Republicans crying foul for the last six years. (And let's not forget that the real case the Supreme Court was debating was whether or not to end the recounts; had the Court allowed the recounts to continue, it's still entirely possible that Bush would have been found the winner.)

Case closed--literally.

The only thing that I'm still curious about anymore is how many republican politicians threw their few remaining scruples into the toilet to get that nincompoop into the white house and keep him there, and regret it now. More than a few, I think.

Katherine Harris has all but been abandoned by her party. That's gratitude for ya. :p

:headbang: The Democrats lost the election, get over it and prepare for 2008!

Um...no.

Both were certainly fixed and invlove hunndreds of cases of disenfranchisement. The first was even unfairly and I think unconstitutionally decided by a court...but then again, when has the Bush administration followed the constitution?

Um...no.

Both were certainly fixed and invlove hunndreds of cases of disenfranchisement. The first was even unfairly and I think unconstitutionally decided by a court...but then again, when has the Bush administration followed the constitution?

uhm... wasn't the case for the 2000 election not the electronic voting method that the OP article is about, but of a poorly designed Manual Punch one?

which only showed...
1) that people cannot READ INSTRUCTIONS!
2) that Gore is willing to waste Tax Dollars to soothe his pride.
3) that the looser will strive to do anything to win (this is dented, so it's OBVIOUS that this Dimpled Chad is a vote for GORE!)

also, are you saying that President BUSH.... the person everyone claims who's Shoe size is higher than his IQ, pulled off not one but two electorial Theifts?

The only thing that I'm still curious about anymore is how many republican politicians threw their few remaining scruples into the toilet to get that nincompoop into the white house and keep him there, and regret it now. More than a few, I think.

Katherine Harris has all but been abandoned by her party. That's gratitude for ya. :p

I hope that teaches people about voting for party and not who's best qualified to run this country!

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

The problem with so many of the charges of fraud is that under Florida law, the primary responsibility for the mechanisms of the election rest not with the state, but with the individual bipartisan county boards of elections. Not only did they administer the voting, but they also counted the ballots themselves, sometimes mechanically, sometimes by hand. To have done any election rigging, you'd have had to go through the boards of elections, and to have done that, it would have been nigh impossible.

:headbang: The Democrats lost the election, get over it and prepare for 2008!
The 2000 election was RIGGED, which throws doubt upon the veracity of the entire system.
Especially as the Republicans "won" again in 2004.
Which makes a Republican victory 100% certain even if there was a civil war 4 hours before the polls opened and all the Republicans had been killed in that prior 4 hours.
After all, the machines would be rigged to give a Republican victory even if there were no Republican votes.

also, are you saying that President BUSH.... the person everyone claims who's Shoe size is higher than his IQ, pulled off not one but two electorial Theifts?
The puppet doesn't have to be smart, just the person with a hand up the puppet's ass.

Two of the links in the first post don't work.
But let's not get paranoid about that too.

I hope that teaches people about voting for party and not who's best qualified to run this country!

As the republican support for Joe Liebermann in Connecticut shows, it's not about voting for party or running the country. It's about opposing Democrats.

That's all the two major parties are. That's how they define their existences, "We aren't them." They exist to to create the illusion of polarity.

As the republican support for Joe Liebermann in Connecticut shows, it's not about voting for party or running the country. It's about opposing Democrats.

That's all the two major parties are. That's how they define their existences, "We aren't them." They exist to to create the illusion of polarity.

<DING!> <DING!> <DING!> <DING!> <DING!>

We have a winner!

Signed, a Connecticut Independent.
-Mark

*snip*

Fifth, the media went down to Florida and recounted all the ballots. When it was all said and done, they found that Bush still won the election.

Why do people still bring this up? Bringing this up did not help the democrats in 2002 nor in 2006?

Annnd... If for some reason the Republicans win all the seats again after doing all the corrupt things they've recently did it has to be because everyone chose them?

All the seats? They do not own all the seats. Just half of them in both houses :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but if NO republican is ousted in this next election then it is rigged because even an complete Idiot would know by now that the current group of Slime we have are no good.

So you are saying that if just One republican wins, the election was rigged?

Um...no.

Both were certainly fixed and invlove hunndreds of cases of disenfranchisement. The first was even unfairly and I think unconstitutionally decided by a court...but then again, when has the Bush administration followed the constitution?

Since when has any president followed the Constitution?

And no. Both were not fixed. That is really getting to be an annoying catch phrase.

Cthulhu-Mythos;11632835']The 2000 election was RIGGED, which throws doubt upon the veracity of the entire system.
Especially as the Republicans "won" again in 2004.
Which makes a Republican victory 100% certain even if there was a civil war 4 hours before the polls opened and all the Republicans had been killed in that prior 4 hours.
After all, the machines would be rigged to give a Republican victory even if there were no Republican votes.

*sighs*

I was going to say something here but I doubt you will see my response with an open mind.

Fifth, the media went down to Florida and recounted all the ballots. When it was all said and done, they found that Bush still won the election.

Why do people still bring this up? Bringing this up did not help the democrats in 2002 nor in 2006?
So, when all is said and done, only the end result counts?

I do believe that if I were an American (Republican or Democrat), I would be demanding a complete and official inquiry. Preferably by an unbiased outside source.

So, when all is said and done, only the end result counts?

I do believe that if I were an American (Republican or Democrat), I would be demanding a complete and official inquiry. Preferably by an unbiased outside source.



Such as who?

A foreign neutral party?

Never fly.

As for American group doing the investigating, what group with any kind of authority can be said to be truly Bipartisan anymore?

Such as who?

A foreign neutral party?

Never fly.

As for American group doing the investigating, what group with any kind of authority can be said to be truly Bipartisan anymore?
Well then, if it cannot be investigated in a proper manner, the alternative would be to return to elections with paper ballots and scrutineers in every polling station?

The democratic principles that your country was founded on, hangs in the balance.

Such as who?

A foreign neutral party?

Never fly.

As for American group doing the investigating, what group with any kind of authority can be said to be truly Bipartisan anymore?

Seriously, the media is far from neutral. Even liberal news sources like the New York Times found that Bush won when they recounted the ballots.

So, when all is said and done, only the end result counts?

I do believe that if I were an American (Republican or Democrat), I would be demanding a complete and official inquiry. Preferably by an unbiased outside source.

I would agree with you Mr. CanuckHeaven, but in today's political climate, who would you trust to do an unbiased investigation?

Seriously, the media is far from neutral. Even liberal news sources like the New York Times found that Bush won when they recounted the ballots.
Again, another one, who only looks at the results and is unconcerned about the whole "democratic" process?

Again, another one, who only looks at the results and is unconcerned about the whole "democratic" process?

The problem is though that most of the problems centered in three, heavily democratic counties. The ballots in question was designed by a democrat and approved by the elections board. The ballot was printed in the newspaper to show the voters what it is going to look like.

In reality, things were done by the book. The problem stems from people not actually reading the ballot and inproperly punched holes in said ballot as well.

Not to mention, we can look at how the recounts were done in those counties.

There are a whole slew of things that we can look at and the investigation time will be enormous and alot of money spent on something that is six years old.

The problem is though that most of the problems centered in three, heavily democratic counties. The ballots in question was designed by a democrat and approved by the elections board. The ballot was printed in the newspaper to show the voters what it is going to look like.

In reality, things were done by the book. The problem stems from people not actually reading the ballot and inproperly punched holes in said ballot as well.

Not to mention, we can look at how the recounts were done in those counties.

There are a whole slew of things that we can look at and the investigation time will be enormous and alot of money spent on something that is six years old.
Obviously, it would be extremely difficult to undo what has been done. However, considering that the 2004 Presidential election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._presidential_election_controversy_and_irregularities)is also clouded in controversey, are you not in the least concerned about the "democratic" process? Or is it okay to proceed with a broken system, as long as your candidate wins?

Surely, this must weigh heavily upon Americans?

In reality, things were done by the book.
IF things had been done "by the book", tens of thousands of Americans would not have been disenfranchised by Kathleen Harris?

IF things had been done "by the book", tens of thousands of Americans would not have been disenfranchised by Kathleen Harris?

It's not disenfranchisement if you incorrectly filled out your ballot. If you are too G-d damned stupid to fill out a ballot correctly, then you are too dumb to vote.

I love it when people think that if the Democrats don't win in 2006 and 2008, then that MUST mean it's rigged, either that or the general population is stupid. I mean let's not even consider the fact that people may want a Republican Congress, or President rather than a Democrat one. :rolleyes: So of course the elections were rigged and the Republicans win in 2006 and 2008, it'll just be more proof that they won.

You know, I actually hope they do win in both years, just to see the reaction.

Obviously, it would be extremely difficult to undo what has been done. However, considering that the 2004 Presidential election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._presidential_election_controversy_and_irregularities)is also clouded in controversey, are you not in the least concerned about the "democratic" process? Or is it okay to proceed with a broken system, as long as your candidate wins?

Surely, this must weigh heavily upon Americans?

You mean that one county in Ohio? The fact that some voting machines already had votes for Kerry? The tire slashing incidents on vehicles that would have taken republican voters to the polls? Break ins at RNC HQs throughout the country?

Every election has controversy CanuckHeaven. Just look throughout US electoral past. Today's incidents are really nothing compared to other stunts pulled throughout my nation's history.

You mean that one county in Ohio? The fact that some voting machines already had votes for Kerry? The tire slashing incidents on vehicles that would have taken republican voters to the polls? Break ins at RNC HQs throughout the country?

Every election has controversy CanuckHeaven. Just look throughout US electoral past. Today's incidents are really nothing compared to other stunts pulled throughout my nation's history.

Don't forget that West Virginia went three presidential elections in a row with higher than 100% voter participation in the late 1800's.

www.alternet.org/bloggers/evan/40755/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cli...ene_Curtis

www.americanfreepress.net...tolen.html

www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS...index.html

I'd like to hear what everyone here thinks about these things.

The first link is of a programmer testifying that a congressman of Florida asked him to make a program that would essentially rig the elections.

Second is for those who want background info on the guy who's testifying.

Third is an overview of the situation.

Fourth is an article on the woman in charge of the 2000 recount. She's incredibly ignorant and very biased towards Bush.

Discuss.

goes to show that bush's crusade to bring democracy to the middle east is pointless since democracy in america is subject to the honesty of amercan politicians(oooh crap)and is in itself under threat.

http://www.ferns.org/images/Democratic%20Seal.jpg

This picture says it all.

The Democrats lose an election fair and square and then start whining about it.

The dumbest claim has to be the ones around 2004. Let's just face it, running on serving in Vietnam isn't going to win you the White House. Of course it appears the Democrats seem to have ignored the lesson of every previous election.

I am so glad that some people are willing to come forward and expose the truth. The elections were rigged by a group of evil, conspiring, and downright mean republicans to put the first retarded president in office and the information shown here proves it.

He's an evil genius that set up a terrorist attack after rigging the election to divert attention away from the fraud and plunge us into a never ending war for oil. He sabotaged the economy, cut taxes so that all the mega corporations he and his friends secretly control can profit off of our enslavement, and used a weather machine to cause the hurricanes last year. How anyone can defend this idiot is beyond me.

I am so glad that some people are willing to come forward and expose the truth. The elections were rigged by a group of evil, conspiring, and downright mean republicans to put the first retarded president in office and the information shown here proves it.

He's an evil genius that set up a terrorist attack after rigging the election to divert attention away from the fraud and plunge us into a never ending war for oil. He sabotaged the economy, cut taxes so that all the mega corporations he and his friends secretly control can profit off of our enslavement, and used a weather machine to cause the hurricanes last year. How anyone can defend this idiot is beyond me.
I love good sarcasm. Let's see how many people you freak out with that one.

Of all the childish--the dems lost the 2000 and 2004 elections. Get over it! Stop making up a bunch of stupid conspiracy theories and try to do better in the 06 and 08 elections. Just because you lose a few doesn't mean the world is plotting around and against you.

It's not disenfranchisement if you incorrectly filled out your ballot. If you are too G-d damned stupid to fill out a ballot correctly, then you are too dumb to vote.


I believe he was referring to the hiring of Choicepoint to scrub tens of thousands of eligible voters (mainly black and democrat) from the voting lists.

What US liberal media? Where were they on reporting this, which was widely reported fact outside of the united states. what a fucking joke...

But hey... lets just ignore that little fact completely because it makes your party look bad. :rolleyes:

I'm not a democrat btw - just concerned at the lack of moral outrage coming from the right at such an obvious tragedy. I condemn all acts of vote fraud from all parties and noone should be let off the hook no matter where they fall in the political spectrum.

Of all the childish--the dems lost the 2000 and 2004 elections. Get over it! Stop making up a bunch of stupid conspiracy theories and try to do better in the 06 and 08 elections. Just because you lose a few doesn't mean the world is plotting around and against you.


Hmmm, Noone in the US has ever tried to rig an election before? All just fantasy conspiracy theories made up by the losers of elections eh?

interesting - got any of that crack to share or are you goign to bogart it all for yourself? :D