NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4960559,00.html

Something tells me he just doesn't get it - that turning your housekeeper into a sex slave isn't acceptable in the US, and will get you thrown in prison.

And we're not going to become dhimmis and change our laws to allow for this "basic Muslim behavior" that evidently, the Saudi government approves of, because they paid to defend him.

By Felix Doligosa Jr., Rocky Mountain News
September 1, 2006
CENTENNIAL - Sniffles and sobs resonated in a packed courtroom Thursday as a Saudi man convicted of sexually assaulting his Indonesian housekeeper was sentenced Thursday to 20 years to life in prison.

Homaidan Al-Turki, 37, was also ordered to serve eight additional years for theft charges.

He denied in Arapahoe County District Court that he enslaved the woman and said authorities targeted him because of his religion.

"Your honor, I am not here to apologize, for I cannot apologize for things I did not do and for crimes I did not commit," he told Judge Mark Hannen.

"The state has criminalized these basic Muslim behaviors. Attacking traditional Muslim behaviors was the focal point of the prosecution," he said.

Prosecutor Natalie Decker said the trial had nothing to do with Al-Turki's Muslim beliefs.

"It has to do with what he did to her for five years," she said outside the courtroom.

Al-Turki was convicted this summer of 12 felony counts of unlawful sexual contact with use of force, one felony count of criminal extortion and one felony count of theft. He also was found guilty of two misdemeanors: false imprisonment and conspiracy to commit false imprisonment.

If that's an example of traditional Muslim behavior then we'd probably be better off exterminating all traditional Muslims.

Racist! Your not respecting his religious freedoms :eek:

Racist! Your not respecting his religious freedoms :eek:

All freedoms extend only as far as not harming the innocent.

We weren't respecting his freedoms? Well, what about hers? If he wants to be in a country where a man's freedoms come before a woman's, he came to the wrong place.

Why?!?!!!? Oh why did you have to start another thread containing the word "Muslim"?!!? Oh why did you have to give birth to another thread pertaining to religion! Why!!!??? Why?!?!?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

People will use anything as an excuse

Why?!?!!!? Oh why did you have to start another thread containing the word "Muslim"?!!? Oh why did you have to give birth to another thread pertaining to religion! Why!!!??? Why?!?!?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

Would you be happier if we covered it all up, and denied it was a problem?

I have the same problem with radical Christians who want to enslave women in polygamy.

Would you be happier if we covered it all up, and denied it was a problem?

I have the same problem with radical Christians who want to enslave women in polygamy.

I have a problem with people who take incidents like these as some sort of evidence of how Christianity or Islam are foul, evil, barbaric mind-control kitten-slaying ideologies.

The problem is not the religion, unless you really don't believe in personal responsibility.

I have the same problem with radical Christians who want to enslave women in polygamy.

Good job confusing an issue there. Polygamy and enslavement are not the same thing.

I have a problem with people who take incidents like these as some sort of evidence of how Christianity or Islam are foul, evil, barbaric mind-control kitten-slaying ideologies.

The problem is not the religion, unless you really don't believe in personal responsibility.

I'm saying that millions of people are taking the ideologies and engaging in foul, evil, barbaric, mind-control, kitten-slaying activities.

It is a problem, especially if the Saudi government believes the man should be defended for behaving this way.

I have a problem with people who take incidents like these as some sort of evidence of how Christianity or Islam are foul, evil, barbaric mind-control kitten-slaying ideologies.

The problem is not the religion, unless you really don't believe in personal responsibility.

Well when the religion's scriptures and founder condone the taking of women as concubines and slaves you've got to figure that the religion has something to do with the behavior.

Well when the religion's scriptures and founder condone the taking of women as concubines and slaves you've got to figure that the religion has something to do with the behavior.

Exactly. If I was to take my kids outside and stone them to death for talking back, and then cited the Old Testament as my reason, and said, "I'm not guilty, I'm just doing basic Christian behaviors" you have to figure that it had something to do with my behavior.

Why?!?!!!? Oh why did you have to start another thread containing the word "Muslim"?!!? Oh why did you have to give birth to another thread pertaining to religion! Why!!!??? Why?!?!?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

Should we not discuss what is in the news? Would you rather bann all talk of religion from this forum?

I'm saying that millions of people are taking the ideologies and engaging in foul, evil, barbaric, mind-control, kitten-slaying activities.


"taking the ideologies," what does that mean?

Guilt by association, that's what you mean. You mean to say that cases like this are an example of how Islam is to blame for criminality.

This is an example of how a guy (the criminal) says "this is just Muslim behaviour, Islam made me do it!" and people (you) say "Aha! He must be right! Islam is evil!"

Kinda like how if a guy (a rapist) says "Her short skirt made me do it!" and then some people go "Aha! Short skirts are evil! BAN THEM NOW!"

It is a problem, especially if the Saudi government believes the man should be defended for behaving this way.

Maybe he's got connections. Big deal. If we really blame the government for anyone any lawyer defends... then the US government is the most corrupt in the world, having so many defenders of so many violent, depraved criminals.

Would you be happier if we covered it all up, and denied it was a problem?

I have the same problem with radical Christians who want to enslave women in polygamy.

Mormons are radical Christians? Or, are you talking about some other religion?

Exactly. If I was to take my kids outside and stone them to death for talking back, and then cited the Old Testament as my reason, and said, "I'm not guilty, I'm just doing basic Christian behaviors" you have to figure that it had something to do with my behavior.

Right. It doesn't mean that all Christians or Jews condone the stoning of their children for disobedience, but you've still got to consider the religion as a factor.

Unfortunately the PC police will allow anyone to talk shit about Christianity, but Islam is taboo. People treat you like a Klansman if you criticize Islam.

Well when the religion's scriptures and founder condone the taking of women as concubines and slaves you've got to figure that the religion has something to do with the behavior.

Right, because no man would ever come up with the idea of sexual slavery on his OWN, no. Only the foul seed of Islam could do that.

Mormons are radical Christians? Or, are you talking about some other religion?

Not all Mormons do polygamy. But a recent head of a polygamy sect was arrested. He was in the habit of arranging polygamous marriages between older men and underage girls. And then using his "religion" to justify it.

I have a problem with people who take incidents like these as some sort of evidence of how Christianity or Islam are foul, evil, barbaric mind-control kitten-slaying ideologies.

The problem is not the religion, unless you really don't believe in personal responsibility.

What if the religion allows such practices? Is the problem the religion or personal responsibility then?

I'm saying that millions of people are taking the ideologies and engaging in foul, evil, barbaric, mind-control, kitten-slaying activities.
It is a problem, especially if the Saudi government believes the man should be defended for behaving this way.
In this case their version of "Traditional Islam" is foul, evil, and barbaric.
Opression doesn't become 'okay' because your faith said so. If there was a faith that said you must kill 40 people a day would it become "Okay' to kill them because it's part of your faith?

I could just imagine the trial...

Proscuter: This person Murdered 40 people in one day.
Defendent: You're oppressing my religion!
P: But you murdered 40...
D: Hey I don't say anthing bad about your religion.
P: 40
D: I want this guy out of here he is insulting my religion.

What if the religion allows such practices? Is the problem the religion or personal responsibility then?

Ya know, there are some hideous things that can be said to be "allowed" by a religion. Religion is so poorly defined that one can use its teachings to any number of hideous ends. But in the end, if I kill someone, it doesn't matter who or what "allowed" me to do it - I am responsible, period.

People who blame religion for this are the same sorts who blame video games for Columbine. Democrats, in other words.

I think we do need to keep in mind that incidents like this are examples of extremism, and should not reflect on the institution (in this case a religion) at large.

It's similar to certain "Christian" groups using "scripture" as justification for murdering abortion doctors. Extremism, not religion.

Right, because no man would ever come up with the idea of sexual slavery on his OWN, no. Only the foul seed of Islam could do that.

Look dude, quit building straw men. You might profit from honestly looking at issues from another person's point of view. People of every religion and of no religion do horrible things, but one's behaviors are slightly influenced by culture and society. A deeply Islamic society, like Saudi Arabia, is likely to produce more whackos that see sex slaves as their right because Muhammad had them and encouraged his followers to go out and get some.

In the USA, with our culture of self reliance and rebellion we get Christian Militia whackos that live in fortified compounds in the woods and on one occasion blew up a federal building. Different cultures promote slightly different kinds of assholes.

Unfortunately the PC police will allow anyone to talk shit about Christianity, but Islam is taboo. People treat you like a Klansman if you criticize Islam.

Look at this horseshit. Kimchi has already shown and said he is not only biased against Muslims but would have no problem with their blanket destruction. I have seen simliar coming from you.

Expect to be treated like Klansman if you express the opinions of one.

Should we not discuss what is in the news? Would you rather bann all talk of religion from this forum?
This is not news, this is further villification of Muslims by some one who has already stated his despise of Muslims.

News is the big head of the US going "Pay no attention to the brewing civil war behind the curtain!" over in Iraq.

Maybe he's got connections.

Or maybe the Saudi government condones such behavior. :eek:

Ya know, there are some hideous things that can be said to be "allowed" by a religion. Religion is so poorly defined that one can use its teachings to any number of hideous ends. But in the end, if I kill someone, it doesn't matter who or what "allowed" me to do it - I am responsible, period.

People who blame religion for this are the same sorts who blame video games for Columbine. Democrats, in other words.

I think it's more likely that most Democrats would be horrified at the lack of political correctness in blaming Islam for anything bad.

Look at this horseshit. Kimchi has already shown and said he is not only biased against Muslims but would have no problem with their blanket destruction. I have seen simliar coming from you.

Expect to be treated like Klansman if you express the opinions of one.

But when I talk shit about the American Taliban, Evangelical Christians nobody seems to mind.

Not all Mormons do polygamy. But a recent head of a polygamy sect was arrested. He was in the habit of arranging polygamous marriages between older men and underage girls. And then using his "religion" to justify it.

Yes, I understand that. I was questioning if the OP considered Mormons fundamentalist Christians.

...snip...
People who blame religion for this are the same sorts who blame video games for Columbine. Democrats, in other words.

ROFLMAO :D

Would you be happier if we covered it all up, and denied it was a problem?

I have the same problem with radical Christians who want to enslave women in polygamy.

Except we have seen in the past that your problem is not with RADICAL Muslims, it's with all Muslims.

Look at this horseshit. Kimchi has already shown and said he is not only biased against Muslims but would have no problem with their blanket destruction. I have seen simliar coming from you.

Expect to be treated like Klansman if you express the opinions of one.

So why is it OK to rag on, disparage, and insult the Christian religion and the Jewish religion but not the Muslim religion? Why is it OK to publish sacrilegious Christian cartoons, but not OK to publish cartoons about Islam? Please explain this to me. I really want to know why.

Look dude, quit building straw men. You might profit from honestly looking at issues from another person's point of view.

There's no straw man here. He says this is "basic Muslim behaviour." The anti-Islam crowd is agreeing because this demonizes Islam if true.


People of every religion and of no religion do horrible things, but one's behaviors are slightly influenced by culture and society. A deeply Islamic society, like Saudi Arabia, is likely to produce more whackos that see sex slaves as their right because Muhammad had them and encouraged his followers to go out and get some.

In the USA, with our culture of self reliance and rebellion we get Christian Militia whackos that live in fortified compounds in the woods and on one occasion blew up a federal building. Different cultures promote slightly different kinds of assholes.

In both cases these are extremists, and I don't really blame Christianity for Christian extremists nor Islam for Islamic extremists. "Extremist" people would be doing extreme things no matter what culture.

I think it's more likely that most Democrats would be horrified at the lack of political correctness in blaming Islam for anything bad.

Generally, they want to ban tangible or intangible things that are perceived as harmful. Drugs, cuz drugs turn people into addicts and psychopaths. Video games, because they mind-control "our young ones" and turn them into depraved killers. They don't currently want to ban Islam, but it's the same type of reasoning and it would not surprise me to hear Democrats rail against Islam at some point.

Then again, Republicans are guilty of ban-o-rama-ism too. It's not an exclusively partisan trait.

Except we have seen in the past that your problem is not with RADICAL Muslims, it's with all Muslims.

Just so we're clear then, the Saudi govt. counts as a radical muslim organisation, yes? I'm not baiting traps, I'm just saying that:

this schlub's using the 'it's islamic' defense, and

_we're_ saying "ah, but it's 'radical' islamic [whatever that is], not regular islamic", then

the Saudi govt. is also a proponent of radical islam, as it supports his defense.

Is that about the shape of it, do we think?

Except we have seen in the past that your problem is not with RADICAL Muslims, it's with all Muslims.

Ahh, the old "I don't have an argument so I'll do a personal attack on the poster" trick. Nice. :rolleyes:

Exactly. If I was to take my kids outside and stone them to death for talking back, and then cited the Old Testament as my reason, and said, "I'm not guilty, I'm just doing basic Christian behaviors" you have to figure that it had something to do with my behavior.


Yes. Because we all know that the vast majority of Christians stone their kids for talking back, and that they employ slaves, and that they murder their brothers.

Right now, I'm out back building an ark so when Ernesto hits I'll be fine.


The guy is using it as an excuse for his behavior in exactly the same way people use "the devil made me do it," or "violent video games" or "rap".

Kinda like how if a guy (a rapist) says "Her short skirt made me do it!" and then some people go "Aha! Short skirts are evil! BAN THEM NOW!"

More like, "Hey look at how she was dressed; she's a slut." And people say, "Well, yeah, let him go. It is her fault."

Just so we're clear then, the Saudi govt. counts as a radical muslim organisation, yes? I'm not baiting traps, I'm just saying that:

this schlub's using the 'it's islamic' defense, and

_we're_ saying "ah, but it's 'radical' islamic [whatever that is], not regular islamic", then

the Saudi govt. is also a proponent of radical islam, as it supports his defense.

Is that about the shape of it, do we think?
The Saudi government's support of Wahabbi Islam, the ideology behind Al Qaeda, shows it to be a radical Islamist nation. Their complete ban on free exercise of any religion besides their version of Islam supports the idea that they're Islamic radicals.

The Saudi government's support of Wahabbi Islam, the ideology behind Al Qaeda, shows it to be a radical Islamist nation. Their complete ban on free exercise of any religion besides their version of Islam supports the idea that they're Islamic radicals.Dang. I didn't know they repressed the American Mormons employed in the oil business there so badly they didn't mention it when I talked to them.

Well when the religion's scriptures and founder condone the taking of women as concubines and slaves you've got to figure that the religion has something to do with the behavior.

You're going to have to dig up some evidence on the taking of slaves bit I think.

I notice that Indonesia doesn't have that kind of problem though, despite being a Muslim majority. I find it more a cultural problem than a religious problem. That's not to say you've don't have your religio fundo freaks, but the issues of this kind of maltreatment seems based more on geography than demographics.

All freedoms extend only as far as not harming the innocent.

Which is the wierdest part of this whole thing. Alternative newspapers are full of personal ads from people looking for just this kind of situation. Yet he goes to an international kidnapping ring to force someone to do it. Dumb dumb dumb.

Dang. I didn't know they repressed the American Mormons employed in the oil business there so badly they didn't mention it when I talked to them.

Were the Mormons allowed to bring their bibles and book of mormon into the kingdom? Probably not, it's illegal there.

Were the Mormons allowed to bring their bibles and book of mormon into the kingdom? Probably not, it's illegal there.To my knowledge they even got their own beaches so that they wouldn't be forced to come overdressed to those frequented by normal Saudis.

On face value, it would imply that Islamic moral and behavioural pre-dispositions are incompatible with those of the west, however it is more likely to be the exception, not the rule.

In both cases these are extremists, and I don't really blame Christianity for Christian extremists nor Islam for Islamic extremists. "Extremist" people would be doing extreme things no matter what culture.

In this case, we have absolutely no indication that this man is an Islamic extremist. We do have an indication that the Saudi Government might possibly condone this type of behavior as they posted his bail. So, one might conclude that in Saudi Muslim culture this is OK behavior. No extremism at all.

Now, while I have not proof that this type of behavior is condoned in Saudi Arabia I have read several books on Islam and slavery and the sexual use of slaves was condoned by the Prophet and the religion. I'll be more than happy to give you the name of those books if you like.

In conclusion, the circumstantial evidence is that this is not some radical Islamic extremist but a main line Muslim who was raised in a Muslim culture that condones this type of behavior. This is the same culture that stones women for adultery, makes women ride in the back seat of a car, and allows women to work as teachers, nurses, and doctors of women only.

Right now, I'm out back building an ark so when Ernesto hits I'll be fine.




I'd offer to help, but my cubit is bigger than your cubit. The results just wouldnt be seaworthy.

Just so we're clear then, the Saudi govt. counts as a radical muslim organisation, yes? I'm not baiting traps, I'm just saying that:

this schlub's using the 'it's islamic' defense, and

_we're_ saying "ah, but it's 'radical' islamic [whatever that is], not regular islamic", then

the Saudi govt. is also a proponent of radical islam, as it supports his defense.

Is that about the shape of it, do we think?


Without knowing the full story on EXACTLY what the Saudi government said I would have to tenitivly say yes. IIRC Saudi government is based on Islamic law and I tend to regard any theocratic government as radical.

So why is it OK to rag on, disparage, and insult the Christian religion and the Jewish religion but not the Muslim religion? Why is it OK to publish sacrilegious Christian cartoons, but not OK to publish cartoons about Islam? Please explain this to me. I really want to know why.
I'm sorry, I would answer but I wasn't fishing for red herrings.

In this case, we have absolutely no indication that this man is an Islamic extremist. We do have an indication that the Saudi Government might possibly condone this type of behavior as they posted his bail. So, one might conclude that in Saudi Muslim culture this is OK behavior. No extremism at all.

Now, while I have not proof that this type of behavior is condoned in Saudi Arabia I have read several books on Islam and slavery and the sexual use of slaves was condoned by the Prophet and the religion. I'll be more than happy to give you the name of those books if you like.

In conclusion, the circumstantial evidence is that this is not some radical Islamic extremist but a main line Muslim who was raised in a Muslim culture that condones this type of behavior. This is the same culture that stones women for adultery, makes women ride in the back seat of a car, and allows women to work as teachers, nurses, and doctors of women only.Faulty logic. All of this seems to be based on the premises that A) If enough people practice it, it isn't extreme, as opposed to it being extreme by being extreme, B) What holds true for one muslim society holds true for all muslim societies, because there's only one muslim culture.

In this case, we have absolutely no indication that this man is an Islamic extremist. We do have an indication that the Saudi Government might possibly condone this type of behavior as they posted his bail. So, one might conclude that in Saudi Muslim culture this is OK behavior. No extremism at all.

Now, while I have not proof that this type of behavior is condoned in Saudi Arabia I have read several books on Islam and slavery and the sexual use of slaves was condoned by the Prophet and the religion. I'll be more than happy to give you the name of those books if you like.

In conclusion, the circumstantial evidence is that this is not some radical Islamic extremist but a main line Muslim who was raised in a Muslim culture that condones this type of behavior. This is the same culture that stones women for adultery, makes women ride in the back seat of a car, and allows women to work as teachers, nurses, and doctors of women only.

And yet is not necessarily indicative of American Muslims, some of with whom I work, some of whose kids I teach, and most of whose teens are VERY MUCH like your average Christian teen.

Go figure.

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/slaveryinislamprint.htm
Contains Hadiths that deal with slavery.

Read it, but for some odd reason, the translations sound...wierd. I mean, booty?

And besides, looking at their front page, seems to me these people who run the site want a holy war against Islam or some sort.

In the name of Christianity....

So you'll have to do a bit better than that. It seems kinda suspect.

I mean, you wouldn't go to a KKK site for truthful information on genetic similarities between the races and a purely factual coverage on africans, african americans, etc, etc would you?

Dang. I didn't know they repressed the American Mormons employed in the oil business there so badly they didn't mention it when I talked to them.

When I was in Saudi Arabia we could not have a cross or any other Christian symbol, the military chaplin had to remove the cross from his uniform, we were not allowed to have any bibles, and could not assemble for prayer or any other religous service.

Read it, but for some odd reason, the translations sound...wierd. I mean, booty?

And besides, looking at their front page, seems to me these people who run the site want a holy war against Islam or some sort.

Yeah, booty. The spoils from war or raiding against the enemy, not like Shake your booty. Not like Sheik Yerbouti either for that matter.
http://i5.tinypic.com/27ytm5t.jpg

When I was in Saudi Arabia we could not have a cross or any other Christian symbol, the military chaplin had to remove the cross from his uniform, we were not allowed to have any bibles, and could not assemble for prayer or any other religous service.When was that? I'm not inferring that what you say is untrue or that there isn't intense repression of other religions in the KSA (which is why the comment "complete ban" wasn't all that fitting), but I do have reason to suspect that the people I've talked to have been there more recently than you have. I could be wrong though.

I'm sorry, I would answer but I wasn't fishing for red herrings.

I understand. You don't have an answer. However, I am interested in getting a serious answer to the question. It seems people either can't or won't answer it. How sad. :(

This thread is mide entirely of the reek of failure.

If I went out and carved up a bunch of people and used the excuse 'It's basic christian behaviour!' does that make it basic Christian behaviour?

Without knowing the full story on EXACTLY what the Saudi government said I would have to tenitivly say yes. IIRC Saudi government is based on Islamic law and I tend to regard any theocratic government as radical.

Cheers - just wanted that cleared up in my own mind :)

I understand. You don't have an answer. However, I am interested in getting a serious answer to the question. It seems people either can't or won't answer it. How sad. :(

Look up red herring.

I understand. You don't have an answer. However, I am interested in getting a serious answer to the question. It seems people either can't or won't answer it. How sad. :(Have you asked people that actually hold the positions you were questioning? I think it's ok to make jokes about Islam so long as they're funny, which is why I don't really have an answer.

Read it, but for some odd reason, the translations sound...wierd. I mean, booty?

And besides, looking at their front page, seems to me these people who run the site want a holy war against Islam or some sort.

In the name of Christianity....

So you'll have to do a bit better than that. It seems kinda suspect.

I mean, you wouldn't go to a KKK site for truthful information on genetic similarities between the races and a purely factual coverage on africans, african americans, etc, etc would you?


Modern day pseudo-slavery in Saudi Arabia
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3251/spring99/saudi.html
On Maliki jurispurdence regarding slavery in Islam
http://history.osu.edu/students/PhiAlphaTheta/review/2006/Dulles_Higley.pdf#search=%22Hadiths%20referring%20to%20slavery%22
The second major issue regarding slavery mentioned in the Qur’an is sexual
relations. It is widely understood that the Qur’an condones the use of slave women as
concubines with whom a Muslim master may have sexual relations. In the eyes of God,
all faithful Muslim women were equal. Despite the fact that a Muslim master is
permitted to have sexual relations with his female concubine, he is encouraged to limit
sexual relations to marriage (Brockopp 133). Furthermore, the use of slave women as
prostitutes was strictly prohibited (Brockopp 134).

If that's an example of traditional Muslim behavior then we'd probably be better off exterminating all traditional Muslims.

Good thing it isn't traditional Muslim behavior, then, right?

Good thing it isn't traditional Muslim behavior, then, right?

I think it is, as there are hadiths supporting keeping female slaves for sex. However, most modern Muslims don't commit such acts, so it's not mainstream Islamic behavior.

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/slaveryinislamprint.htm


Taken from the front page of the site you've linked to, dcd:

Can Muslims Be
Good Americans?
(Or good citizens of any country?)

Can a Devout Muslim be
an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

Consider this:

Theologically ~ NO His allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Scripturally ~ NO His allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Qur'an.

Geographically ~ NO His allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially ~ NO His allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically ~ NO He must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders) who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically ~ NO He i! s instru cted to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Qur'an 4:34.)

Religiously ~ NO No other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Qur'an, 2:256)

Intellectually ~ NO ~ He cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on biblical principles and he believes the bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically ~ NO Islam, Muhammad, and the Qur'an do not allow freedom of religion and _expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually ~ NO When we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as our heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Qur'an's 99 excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation ~ we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in our country. They obviously cannot be BOTH good Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish ~ it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above, share this with your friends. The more Americans who understand this, the better it will be for our country.

The war is MUCH BIGGER than most of us know and it's going to last a LOT LONGER than we can imagine

What a load of not-even-terribly-well-disguised, outright racist claptrap. For shame.

Taken from the front page of the site you've linked to, dcd:



What a load of not-even-terribly-well-disguised, outright racist claptrap. For shame.

Yes, fine, I caught on to it rather late and provided links form more trustworthy sources to back up my arguments.

And we're not going to become dhimmis and change our laws to allow for this "basic Muslim behavior" that evidently, the Saudi government approves of, because they paid to defend him.
You do understand the basdic concept that a govt paying to defend someone doesn't mean the govt agrees with their defence, do you?
Or are you continually outraged against the US govt and think it supports rape whenever you read of a public DA defending people who make claims like, "She was asking for it"?

Faulty logic. All of this seems to be based on the premises that A) If enough people practice it, it isn't extreme, as opposed to it being extreme by being extreme, B) What holds true for one muslim society holds true for all muslim societies, because there's only one muslim culture.

I was not trying to make a point that what is true for one Muslim culture is true for all Muslim cultures. I know better than that. There is a vast difference between the culture of Saudi Arabia, and the culture of Malaysia. My point is that the behavior is condoned by some Muslim cultures and that type of behavior is allowed according to the Koran and Hadiths.

Ok- the state/prosecutor is going after this scum bag for false imprisonment, forceable rape-and dont forget theft.

These are the charges against this piece of shit.

He is the one that, being charged with these crimes, denies they are crimes and he himself labels it as "basic muslim behavior" and the state was attacking that "basic muslim beahvior".

muslims bailed him out. $400,000.00 worth of bail.

He brought this slave from the middle east, took her passport and paid her $150.00 per week-the slave alleges that the scum bag's wife kept most of that too. These parents are a great model for the 5 children they have.

If thats what "basic muslim behavior" entails, go the fuck back to a basic muslim country, cause this aint it.


This thing and his wife are scum bags,by my standards. Lock them both up- we dont need them here. People like this are turning our wonderful "melting pot" into a festering cesspool.

If this slave was a Mexican illegal and an American landscaper here was only paying her $150.00 a week, for seven days work and NOT raping her, people would be shrieking about how unjust it was.

I think it is, as there are hadiths supporting keeping female slaves for sex. However, most modern Muslims don't commit such acts, so it's not mainstream Islamic behavior.

Yeah. Once again, the historical context comes in. The Old Testament also documents slavery, not to mention genocide, but it's commonly accepted that these passages are completely out of date in both Judaism and Islam.

When was that? I'm not inferring that what you say is untrue or that there isn't intense repression of other religions in the KSA (which is why the comment "complete ban" wasn't all that fitting), but I do have reason to suspect that the people I've talked to have been there more recently than you have. I could be wrong though.

1985 through 1988.

Modern day pseudo-slavery in Saudi Arabia
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/3251/spring99/saudi.html


This one, I'm discarding because it doesn't cover Islam, but rather, Saudi Arabia. One's a religion. The other is a nationstate with that religion. The two aren't exactly the same thing.


On Maliki jurispurdence regarding slavery in Islam
http://history.osu.edu/students/PhiAlphaTheta/review/2006/Dulles_Higley.pdf#search=%22Hadiths%20referring%20to%20slavery%22

Somewhat better, and appears to be considerably more level on the field than your earlier link. Here it indicates that the Quran advocated the Roman approach to slavery (near egalitarian with emphasis on emancipation), and less like the old American treatment.

Still, I will examine this further.

Yeah. Once again, the historical context comes in. The Old Testament also documents slavery, not to mention genocide, but it's commonly accepted that these passages are completely out of date in both Judaism and Islam.

True. And if a Christian or Jew were holding slaves and claimed it was his religious right to own people I would assign part of the blame to the religion. Religions have to be held accountable for the actions of their followers, like in the case of the Catholic sex abuse scandals when the church was sued for millions of dollars because it turned a blind eye to it's clergy's evil actions.

I was not trying to make a point that what is true for one Muslim culture is true for all Muslim cultures. I know better than that. There is a vast difference between the culture of Saudi Arabia, and the culture of Malaysia. My point is that the behavior is condoned by some Muslim cultures and that type of behavior is allowed according to the Koran and Hadiths.Yes, however this does not mean that wahhabism isn't an extremist muslim sect, but instead a mainstream islamic sect. The KSA is an example of an extremist muslim movement running a country.
Besides, you do know that the bible condones similarly reprehensible behavior. That in itself doesn't make a person following a certain religion an extremist. It's acting upon those that makes someone an asshole, as DK pointed out with his allegory of stoning his children for talking back.

When was that? I'm not inferring that what you say is untrue or that there isn't intense repression of other religions in the KSA (which is why the comment "complete ban" wasn't all that fitting), but I do have reason to suspect that the people I've talked to have been there more recently than you have. I could be wrong though.1985 through 1988.
We got the same treatment during Desert Storm and Shield. In fact, I had a couple of the religious police chase me around Dharan(sp?) while we were waiting to head home. My 'crime' was that I was running in shorts and a t--shirt. I found a friendly MP that pointed his M--16 at them until they went away.

Look up red herring.

I know what it is, and I don't think asking for an honest answer to and honest question is a red herring. But I guess you don't see it that way. :rolleyes:

This one, I'm discarding because it doesn't cover Islam, but rather, Saudi Arabia. One's a religion. The other is a nationstate with that religion. The two aren't exactly the same thing.



Somewhat better, and appears to be considerably more level on the field than your earlier link. Here it indicates that the Quran advocated the Roman approach to slavery (near egalitarian with emphasis on emancipation), and less like the old American treatment.

It also does not appear to indicate any condoning of the acts that this person was charged with.

Still, I will examine this further.
The Saudi kingdom's laws are based on Wahabbi Islam. What the law tolerates is what that particularly repressive form of Islam tolerates.

1985 through 1988.Last time I talked to people that worked there was in 2003. It's possible that some things have changed since then and that oil companies are afforded more freedoms than the military.

This thread is mide entirely of the reek of failure.

If I went out and carved up a bunch of people and used the excuse 'It's basic christian behaviour!' does that make it basic Christian behaviour?

I think the point that's trying to be put across is that some swathes of islamic populations agree with the misogynistc rapist, saying that "yes, in this moden age we live in, behaviour like that is still acceptable". The Saudi government certainly _seems_ to think this is acceptable behaviour for muslims, according to the article.

If people accept an act as reasonable behaviour, that's certainly what it becomes (and, obviously, vice versa). For example, in the UK, 'living in sin', single parenthood, mixed race couples have all become 'normal' over the past few generations, while slavery, husbands raping their wives, and some explicit exclusions of people based on sex/race have become abnormal.

If enough muslims _believed_ this act was reasonable, then yes, it would be a 'basic muslim behaviour', but there's no evidence to support that. However, there are hints (from the saudi govt., and it would be interesting to study exactly what the counsel for the defence used in argument) that it's 'basic behaviour' to _some group[s]_ of muslims - that's worth researching.

One psycho is hardly basis for 'ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE ALL RAEP' research.

Last time I talked to people that worked there was in 2003. It's possible that some things have changed since then and that oil companies are afforded more freedoms than the military.

They usually are. Also, many expatriate employees for companies like Saudi Aramco live in company towns with other expatriates; IIRC they are allowed a fairly wider amount of freedom than the average Saudi or soldier simply because it would be impossible to retain these workers if they had to live under the same repressive laws as the rest of the kingdom.

One psycho is hardly basis for 'ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE ALL RAEP' research.

If this really was an isolated incident, you might be on to something.

However, most modern Muslims don't commit such acts, so it's not mainstream Islamic behavior.

Thanks for admitting that much.

If this really was an isolated incident, you might be on to something.

Shit, I know I can't walk down the street without being molested by a swarthy foreigner.

One psycho is hardly basis for 'ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE ALL RAEP' research.

Well, that's the point, it's _not_ just 'one psycho' - what put it into his head that any islamic culture would support him? Why would a govt. support him? What possible arguments and evidence could his defence atternoy produce in support of his position? These sorts of things make it an interesting possibility to look into.

And there's no evidence that the man's psychotic, or that would doubtless be mentioned at trial!

They usually are. Also, many expatriate employees for companies like Saudi Aramco live in company towns with other expatriates; IIRC they are allowed a fairly wider amount of freedom than the average Saudi or soldier simply because it would be impossible to retain these workers if they had to live under the same repressive laws as the rest of the kingdom.
The part that chaps my hide, and probably Celt's too, is that we were invited to come in and risk our lives to save their butts. Not a single soldier that walked or flew across the Kuwaiti border was a Saudi. I never saw any Saudi aircraft in close air support of troops. We sat there and prevented an Iraqi invasion and all we got for our troubles was a lot of grief about alcohol, women driving trucks, and Christianity.

If this really was an isolated incident, you might be on to something.

So is your official position "ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE ALL RAEP", or?

This thread is mide entirely of the reek of failure.

If I went out and carved up a bunch of people and used the excuse 'It's basic christian behaviour!' does that make it basic Christian behaviour?

It's more symptom of how disparaging Muslims as a homogenous entity is currently hotter than Grand Theft Auto and Halo combined.

If you butcher a lot of people and cry out to everyone "I kicked ass for the Lord!" then most people on General would say "He was a nutter, he doesn't represent Christianity at all." But if you did the same thing and said "Allahu Ackbar!" or "I kicked ass for Allah!" then the foremost thoughts of those same people would be, "See? Just the latest in 3b1l from t3h 3b1l m0zl3m b0rg ©0lle©t1v3. We need to exterminate them all! Exterminate! EX-TER-MI-NA-TE!!"

So is your official position "ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE ALL RAEP", or?

No, but why would any Muslim consider this to be acceptable behavior? And there have been other, similar incidents, as well.

Ok- the state/prosecutor is going after this scum bag for false imprisonment, forceable rape-and dont forget theft.

These are the charges against this piece of shit.

He is the one that, being charged with these crimes, denies they are crimes and he himself labels it as "basic muslim behavior" and the state was attacking that "basic muslim beahvior".

muslims bailed him out. $400,000.00 worth of bail.

He brought this slave from the middle east, took her passport and paid her $150.00 per week-the slave alleges that the scum bag's wife kept most of that too. These parents are a great model for the 5 children they have.

If thats what "basic muslim behavior" entails, go the fuck back to a basic muslim country, cause this aint it.


This thing and his wife are scum bags,by my standards. Lock them both up- we dont need them here. People like this are turning our wonderful "melting pot" into a festering cesspool.

If this slave was a Mexican illegal and an American landscaper here was only paying her $150.00 a week, for seven days work and NOT raping her, people would be shrieking about how unjust it was.

We are in agreement. He and his wife are scumbags.
That does not make it any more true that it is "basic Muslim behavior" than when George Bush says that "God talks to him", or when Phelps says that America is going to hell because we afford the same rights to those ebil gays as everyone else.

It's more symptom of how disparaging Muslims as a homogenous entity is currently hotter than Grand Theft Auto and Halo combined.

If you butcher a lot of people and cry out to everyone "I kicked ass for the Lord!" then most people on General would say "He was a nutter, he doesn't represent Christianity at all." But if you did the same thing and said "Allahu Ackbar!" or "I kicked ass for Allah!" then the foremost thoughts of those same people would be, "See? Just the latest in 3b1l from t3h 3b1l m0zl3m b0rg ©0lle©t1v3. We need to exterminate them all! Exterminate! EX-TER-MI-NA-TE!!"

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED, INSHALLAH. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL PRAY MANY TIMES DAILY.

Off-topic a bit, but a friend of mine told me about her ex-neighbour.

bit of background info:
Over here, many people hire Indonesians and Philipinos as live-in maids. They get paid absolutely fuck-all - just $3200HK a month ($400US), work 6 days a week and are expected to be up and have breakfast ready before everyone gets up and don't finish work until all go to bed. Thus most work 6am - 12am. I was shown a flat that had a typical maid's bedroom - it measured 2m by 2m. That's their personal quarters. They're not allowed to bring friends home and some ppl won't even allow them in the rest of the house unless they're working. Nor are they allowed out unless it's to do with work. Their day off is Sunday and they all come down to the parks and walkway overbridges to meet.

Anyway, back to my mate's ex-neighbour:
My friend's a Japanese woman who's been living here for 15/20 years now. Her ex-neighbour was a Brit who had worked in the HK Police dept for 30-something years, then retired just before hand-over (1997), on a whopping great pay-out and pension.
He hired an Indonesian maid. Took her passport away, rarely paid her, used the fact he'd been in the police for years to threaten her that she'd be thrown in gaol if she told anyone and - of course:rolleyes: - demanded and expected sexual favours.
One thing he liked to do is make her watch japanese porn - loud, which annoyed the hell out of my mate, seeing as she's got a 10 yr old daughter.
Eventually the maid told my friend what was happening and she helped her get away.
Not that it mattered. Nothing was done, and he moved and last she heard he had hired another one and no doubt started the whole sordid process again.





Just waiting for DK to splutter outrage over this and fume about how this proves that all Britons are filthy savages.....


(tumbleweed blows past)

No, but why would any Muslim consider this to be acceptable behavior? And there have been other, similar incidents, as well.

Perverted fucks who hide behind the very most outdated precepts of the religion and use the shitness and corruption of their government to do such things. This guy certainly isn't a Muslim, because of what he does, anyway.

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED, INSHALLAH. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL PRAY MANY TIMES DAILY.

You got it wrong :p

WE ARE MUSLIM. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ALLAH-SIMILATED.

Perverted fucks who hide behind the very most outdated precepts of the religion and use the shitness and corruption of their government to do such things. This guy certainly isn't a Muslim, because of what he does, anyway.

Of course not, but as you can see Islamicidal folks like Deep Kimchi will latch onto any pretense that supposedly justifies their cry of "3b1l m0zlemz must all die."

Hey, even if theer's no evidence that they're all perverts WE KNOW IT'S AN ACT, AMIRITE DEEP KIMCHI?

True. And if a Christian or Jew were holding slaves and claimed it was his religious right to own people I would assign part of the blame to the religion. Religions have to be held accountable for the actions of their followers, like in the case of the Catholic sex abuse scandals when the church was sued for millions of dollars because it turned a blind eye to it's clergy's evil actions.

Except that Christians did not condone sexual abuse, nor the cover-up of the church. And Catholics have been making their displeasure known in a way that the church DEFINITELY feels -- NOT filling the collection plate. There have also been concerted and successful public efforts to publicize exactly who was protecting the pervs by moving them along to different parishes without notifying anyone of what was happening.

Perhaps you should blame the specific Christians involved rather than the whole religion? Just a thought.

And oh, the specific Muslims involved in this and other incidents rather than the whole religion? Just a thought.

Except that Christians did not condone sexual abuse, nor the cover-up of the church.

Perhaps you should blame the specific Christians involved rather than the whole religion? Just a thought.

And oh, the specific Muslims involved in this and other incidents rather than the whole religion? Just a thought.

This is the General forum. I'm generalizing.

Except that Christians did not condone sexual abuse, nor the cover-up of the church.

Perhaps you should blame the specific Christians involved rather than the whole religion? Just a thought.

And oh, the specific Muslims involved in this and other incidents rather than the whole religion? Just a thought.

Isn't Landover Baptist Church offering free World of Warcraft accounts for a year if you publically declare that "all m0zl3mz r 3b1l & must d13" as well as accept Christ as your saviour?

:D

I'd renounce Allah for that!

Of course not, but as you can see Islamicidal folks like Deep Kimchi will latch onto any pretense that supposedly justifies their cry of "3b1l m0zlemz must all die."

This thread is Islamoriffic.

Allahlicious.

This is the General forum. I'm generalizing.

In other words, your examples don't hold up when examined.

It's not the Islamorepublicans I'm afraid of so much as the Christofascists.

Off-topic a bit, but a friend of mine told me about her ex-neighbour.



Just waiting for DK to splutter outrage over this and fume about how this proves that all Britons are filthy savages.....


(tumbleweed blows past)

But this misses the point completely - what justification did the policeman give for himself? Did he say 'these days lots of britons do it, it's my normal culture', like the man here?

Ok, he didn't say anything - it never went to trial - but that's the bit of the story that would shed most light on the current topic, justification, and evidence submitted by the policeman in support of his argument - if any.

The debate isn't about how shitty people can be to each other, but why, and what it says about their (sub-, thankfully) culture (or religion etc.) when they say 'where I come from, this is fine'; if it _is_ in fact 'fine' to some group(s) within that culture/whatever.

We are in agreement. He and his wife are scumbags.
That does not make it any more true that it is "basic Muslim behavior" than when George Bush says that "God talks to him", or when Phelps says that America is going to hell because we afford the same rights to those ebil gays as everyone else.

However-doesnt the article say that the Saudis bailed him out ?

If this werent basic muslim behaviour, dont you think they should be distancing themselves from him, rather than appearing to condone what he says?

My point is that the prosecutor nor the original poster here made it a muslim issue- it was the criminal himself.

I'm well aware people from all religions commit crimes far more disgusting than this on a regular basis-sometimes in the name of religion. I dont need a lesson in that. I'm sickened by all of these twisted low lifes.

When I act in the name of my faith, its soley to assist others through charitable contributions of my time, skills, money, food ,shelter, advice, comfort, etc...
I've never harmed or deprived someone of anything in the name of my faith.

We got the same treatment during Desert Storm and Shield. In fact, I had a couple of the religious police chase me around Dharan(sp?) while we were waiting to head home. My 'crime' was that I was running in shorts and a t--shirt. I found a friendly MP that pointed his M--16 at them until they went away.

We had a female airman who went outside the compound without her hajab or whatever you call it. She was immediatly picked up by the religious police. Fortunatly, the military got her back and put her on the next military flight out of the country. She is banned from Saudi Arabia for the rest of her life. Probably got an Article 15 when she got back to home base for not following orders as well. She was briefed and knew better.

In other words, your examples don't hold up when examined.

The church hid pedo priests, so in effect it was condoning their actions. Saudi arabia, who's laws are based on Wahabbi Islam, allows employers to treat their guestworkers as virtual slaves and does nothing about it. In both cases I think the religions are partly to blame.

She is banned from Saudi Arabia for the rest of her life.

Being banned from Saudi Arabia forever isn't a bad thing. Although I can see how it would have been a problem for those working in the US military then.

Were the Mormons allowed to bring their bibles and book of mormon into the kingdom? Probably not, it's illegal there.

No religious books / religious icons (even photos/drawings of your deity) is allowed into Saudi.

Everything will be confiscated at port of entry and torn/destroyed....often in front of your eyes. Even islamic shiite iconography will be confiscated. I have known cases of ornamental Qur'ans destroyed because they were ornamental.

This man's (in the OP) behaviour is not a "basic muslim behavior"....it is rather a basic Saudi Arabian behavior....with influence from Qur'anic sanction to slavery and the historical (and still continuing) tradition of taking slaves/bonded labourers etc in Arabia.

Would you be happier if we covered it all up, and denied it was a problem?

I have the same problem with radical Christians who want to enslave women in polygamy.

Yeah, we can barely fucking move for all the christian bashing threads you've started.....

*SNIP* This is the same culture that stones women for adultery, makes women ride in the back seat of a car, and allows women to work as teachers, nurses, and doctors of women only.
That is an Extremist Culture, and a very evil extremist culture.
This version of faith is better off not existing!


This thread is mide entirely of the reek of failure.

If I went out and carved up a bunch of people and used the excuse 'It's basic christian behaviour!' does that make it basic Christian behaviour?
If the Vatican posted your Bail maybe.

We had a female airman who went outside the compound without her hajab or whatever you call it. She was immediatly picked up by the religious police. Fortunatly, the military got her back and put her on the next military flight out of the country. She is banned from Saudi Arabia for the rest of her life. Probably got an Article 15 when she got back to home base for not following orders as well. She was briefed and knew better.

I'd like to be banned from Saudi for life. Unfortunately, I go to Riyadh every year, or so. Actually, there's nothing I like in that part of the world, except Israel and the Israelis.

I'd like to be banned from Saudi for life. Unfortunately, I go to Riyadh every year, or so. Actually, there's nothing I like in that part of the world, except Israel and the Israelis.

Ever been to Lebanon? You'd like Beirut and the mountains, probably. Some of the Gulf countries (not Saudi) are also interesting. So is Egypt.

Ever been to Lebanon? You'd like Beirut and the mountains, probably. Some of the Gulf countries (not Saudi) are also interesting. So is Egypt.

Iran is also totally awesome.

Look your identifying a problem here. It is not muslims in my opinion. It is rich Saudi men that think they can do what they want. From sex slaves to running oil cartels and to a jihad funded by the most well known rich Saudi Osama. That is the problem here. Of course they all do it in the name of Islam when it comes down to excuses. It is a easy scapegoat for them and others that want to give a reason for this problem that comes out of Arabia itself. I know that in Morocco Saudi men are despised. They talk down Saudi Arabia all the time because of the behavoir of alot of the men there.

Look your identifying a problem here. It is not muslims in my opinion. It is rich Saudi men that think they can do what they want. From sex slaves to running oil cartels and to a jihad funded by the most well known rich Saudi Osama. That is the problem here. Of course they all do it in the name of Islam when it comes down to excuses. It is a easy scapegoat for them and others that want to give a reason for this problem that comes out of Arabia itself. I know that in Morocco Saudi men are despised. They talk down Saudi Arabia all the time because of the behavoir of alot of the men there.
It happens a lot in non-Arab countries. Whenever I go to Pakistan, most people just love talking about how they don't like Saudis (in simple terms).

Look your identifying a problem here. It is not muslims in my opinion. It is rich Saudi men that think they can do what they want. From sex slaves to running oil cartels and to a jihad funded by the most well known rich Saudi Osama. That is the problem here. Of course they all do it in the name of Islam when it comes down to excuses. It is a easy scapegoat for them and others that want to give a reason for this problem that comes out of Arabia itself. I know that in Morocco Saudi men are despised. They talk down Saudi Arabia all the time because of the behavoir of alot of the men there.

Same with the Lebanese and Palestinians. A lot of Saudis who have money will go to Beirut on vacation for the beaches and the better atmosphere, and the people living there find them distasteful. It's probably the same in Aqaba or resorts in Egypt and other places.

The church hid pedo priests, so in effect it was condoning their actions. Saudi arabia, who's laws are based on Wahabbi Islam, allows employers to treat their guestworkers as virtual slaves and does nothing about it. In both cases I think the religions are partly to blame.


There is a difference between a religion as a whole, a church (a subset of the religion) as a whole, individuals in the church (a subset of the church, which is a subset of the religion) and your average everyday Christian.

Similarly, there is a difference between Islam as a whole, mosques, imams, and individual muslims.

Unless you're implying that all Christians of all sects are pedos based on the actions of some priests and the cardinals who stupidly protected them, you should not imply all Muslims are sexually depraved rapists and violent criminals.

There is a difference between a religion as a whole, a church (a subset of the religion) as a whole, individuals in the church (a subset of the church, which is a subset of the religion) and your average everyday Christian.

Similarly, there is a difference between Islam as a whole, mosques, imams, and individual muslims.

Unless you're implying that all Christians of all sects are pedos based on the actions of some priests and the cardinals who stupidly protected them, you should not imply all Muslims are sexually depraved rapists and violent criminals.

I never said all Muslims are sexually depraved rapists. I did say that I think the religion shares the blame for the actions of Muslims who want to have sex slaves because they can point to certain passages in Muslim scriptures to justify the behavior to themselves, and they can point to those passages to try to justify the behavior to the courts, but in any decent nation that won't work.

No religious books / religious icons (even photos/drawings of your deity) is allowed into Saudi.

Everything will be confiscated at port of entry and torn/destroyed....often in front of your eyes. Even islamic shiite iconography will be confiscated. I have known cases of ornamental Qur'ans destroyed because they were ornamental.

This man's (in the OP) behaviour is not a "basic muslim behavior"....it is rather a basic Saudi Arabian behavior....with influence from Qur'anic sanction to slavery and the historical (and still continuing) tradition of taking slaves/bonded labourers etc in Arabia.

Heh, we had to smuggle a christmas tree and a few bibles in the country :D

By that logic...

Lynndie England, when "following orders" to rape and torture in Abu Ghraib... is the responsibility of the US army? Considering that those incidents were also covered up by some people in it?

In order to mantain one iota of coherence, DK, you WILL have to say it is so! So say it now or admit there's no relationship in this moron's case either!