NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm more of a Picard fan myself, but what do you think?

Picard Pwns Kirk!!!!!!!

Master Shake pwns both of them.

(I did it in the Homer v. Peter thread, so I figure I'll be consistent. :D )

Picard Pwns Kirk!!!!!!!

Agreed....

There is literally no comparison. They are not on the same spectrum. They are both "the best," each in their own inimitable way :cool:

Master Shake pwns both of them.

(I did it in the Homer v. Peter thread, so I figure I'll be consistent. :D )

Lol... I think I might make a habit of these "Someone or Someone" threads...

You could at least spell Picards name right. It's Jean Luc Picard.

picard.
origional star trek was cancelled for a reason.

You could at least spell Picards name right. It's Jean Luc Picard.

Geh... sorry... Here, is it possible for me to fix that?

Technically speaking, no. You'd have to make a new thread. But it's alright.

You could at least spell Picards name right. It's Jean Luc Picard.

So ignore the fact it's also James Tiberius Kirk????

Edit: I only JUST saw the poll. Ignore me.....I'm a moron!

So ignore the fact it's also James Tiberius Kirk????

Well he got the T part right, so I didn't think it mattered.

Well he got the T part right, so I didn't think it mattered.

I always thought the T stood for "terrifically good looking." Or at least I'm sure Shatner did, anyway.

Picard ftw. make it so!

Well he got the T part right, so I didn't think it mattered.

Yeah sorry - I didn't look at the poll options before I posted that. Thought you were just being funny about using just surname is all :D

Picard Pwns Kirk!!!!!!!

yup *nods*


pickard = teh best captain evar!1! :)

Hmmm... I wonder why so few people wub Kirk...

Well so far Picard has a 100% approval rating.

Hmmm... I wonder why so few people wub Kirk...

probably cos the old series look waaaaay too dated and lame. Plus Shatner's an egotistical *insert bad comment here*

patrick stewart is a much better actor.

as the guy who played sulo said,"if my lover sucked as much as shattners acting, i would never leave my castle."

Jean-Luc Picard, no shadow of a doubt.

Of course that might be because Patrick Stewart is actually pretty damn sexy.

What? <.<

Well so far Picard has a 100% approval rating.

Yup and the reason being:

yup *nods*


pickard = teh best captain evar!1! :)


*nods*

patrick stewart is a much better actor.

as the guy who played sulo said,"if my lover sucked as much as shattners acting, i would never leave my castle."


Patrick Stewart has a cool voice! He sounds the part!

Patrick Stewart has a cool voice! He sounds the part!

PLUS William Shatner wasn't an X-Man.

He died! :eek:

Patrick Stewart is really able to bring Picard to life, and that's why he's better than Shatner's Kirk. Has anyone seen Stewart in his dramatization of Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol"? He's the finest actor of our age.

PLUS William Shatner wasn't an X-Man.

He died! :eek:

S'ok his character's coming back in that coma guy. Hmmm.... does that mean P.S won't be playing the part anymore?????:confused: :eek: :confused:

Patrick Stewart is really able to bring Picard to life, and that's why he's better than Shatner's Kirk. Has anyone seen Stewart in his dramatization of Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol"? He's the finest actor of our age.

It was a truely great film - he rocks!

James T. Kirk was a rogue buffon, with no appreciation for any technical skills or academic/practical discipline. He constantly violates starfleet and indigenous custom for arbitary egotistical causes.

Jean Luc Picard has demonstrated selfless leadership, technical competance and tactical prowess numberous times. He can also quote any number of human and non-human literary works.

Picard goes mano-a-mano with aliens twice his bulk and can keep the Borg at bay with some help (First Contact: Insurrections). James T Kirk gets into fistfights and lets redshirts do the dying under his command (Er...pretty much all of TOS, plus he got wasted by a mad scientist in Generations).

Picard can detect a 6-micron-sized subspatial listing in warp with no instruments other than the seat of his pants. Kirk demands power from Scotty without even understand what antimatter conversion is.

Picard is deemed worthy by Q (a race of omnipresent multi-dimensional beings) as representative of the best of the human race. Kirk is a wanted criminal on dozens of worlds.

So, *sarcasm* gee I wonder who's better...

Picard would win because he has a better ship, better tactics, better crew, etc. Kird has hair, and gets laid more, but he simply isn't any match for an enemy hundreds of years ahead of his time.

But no doubt in the Star Trek universe the fight would end halfway and the two captains would come to some sort of a diplomatic agreement as they always seem to do.

S'ok his character's coming back in that coma guy. Hmmm.... does that mean P.S won't be playing the part anymore?????:confused: :eek: :confused:


I think that you're woman Phoenix (who *obviously* isn't really dead) will bring Picard's body back.

It'll be a deus ex machina type thing.

I think that you're woman Phoenix (who *obviously* isn't really dead) will bring Picard's body back.

It'll be a deus ex machina type thing.

She bloody well better!!!! I'm sooooo annoyed that Gambit's been left out of the movies so far - he was always the coolest. [/hijack]

She bloody well better!!!! I'm sooooo annoyed that Gambit's been left out of the movies so far - he was always the coolest. [/hijack]

Agreed.

I don't know.......

I can make a case for both of them..

:confused:

I'm more of a Picard fan myself, but what do you think?

Kirk.

But only because of the gay-love-triangle between Kirk, Bones and Spock.

Kirk and the original cast win hands down. By the way the poll forgot Janeway.

Kirk and the original cast win hands down. By the way the poll forgot Janeway.

yes, Janeway. If she was an option I wouldn't be having a problem.....;)

Kirk and the original cast win hands down. By the way the poll forgot Janeway.

That's because Janeway only appeared in the parody version.

(I think they called it 'Voyager'.)

Kirk.

But only because of the gay-love-triangle between Kirk, Bones and Spock.

Kirk bones Spock! :eek:

Kirk bones Spock! :eek:

I don't know whether the love was ever consumated... :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0EE96qK22o

Picard, but props to Kirk for the KHAAAAAAAN scream :D

I don't know whether the love was ever consumated... :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0EE96qK22o

I reckon you can take that as a given! :D

Kirk and the original cast win hands down. By the way the poll forgot Janeway.

Janeway?

She didn't even Captain a proper ship.

Captain John Luc Picard of the U.S.S. Enterprise!

http://picard.ytmnd.com/

Firstly, it's "Luc". Secondly, he rules.

Firstly, it's "Luc". Secondly, he rules.

nah, we already been over this on page 1.

Firstly it "Jean" secondly it's "Luc" (Jean-Luc) and yes he does rule.

I chose the P-man, primarily because he's a much better actor and a much deeper character than Kirk for the most part.

By the way the poll forgot Janeway.
I don't think he forgot her in the poll so much as he's trying to forget Janeway in general. She really sucked.

I think Ben Sisko deserves a mention. He was a bit dodgy at the start but he grew into the role after a couple of seasons. He's no Picard but a decent enough commander of ds9. Sisko = shaft in space

Kirk and Janeway both make me want to :headbang:

Picard Pwns Kirk!!!!!!!
Yeah, cause a slaphead with a fruity middle name like 'Luc' totally pawns a full-head-of-hair sex-machine whose middle name is 'Tiberius'.

Picard had class. Kirk was a total goon, and could've been played BETTER by Peter Sellers in the role of bluebottle goon. :D

Yeah, cause a slaphead with a fruity middle name like 'Luc' totally pawns a full-head-of-hair sex-machine whose middle name is 'Tiberius'.

All true!:D

Picard Pwns Kirk.

I think Ben Sisko deserves a mention. He was a bit dodgy at the start but he grew into the role after a couple of seasons. He's no Picard but a decent enough commander of ds9. Sisko = shaft in space


Plus you can't forget Sisko's method of dealing with Q, punch him in the face.

Picard!!!! Picard!!!!! Kirk is just a brute you know. Though this is pretty cool. ;)

http://khanspoiler.ytmnd.com/

Plus you can't forget Sisko's method of dealing with Q, punch him in the face.
"You hit me! Picard never hit me!"
"I'm not Picard" :D

I'm more of a Picard fan myself, but what do you think?

Janeway.

Janeway.

NOway!:p

For me? Kirk.

why? Simple.

In Kirk's time, there wasn't any of this "instinatious communication" with Starfleet. The Captain had to make his decisions and take responsiblity for them. Wether it be to stop a war, or to threaten war, the decision was the Captain's.

I remember one episode where Kirk had to risk war to enter the Romulan Neutral Zone and he took responsibility for it. He did what he had to do and returned... then he got the response from Starfleet to "Go Ahead, they will support his decision."

Meanwhile, Picard would contact Starfleet and get some Admiral on the line to discuss it....

TOS was about Exploration. "Seeking out Brave NEW words and NEW civilizations." ST:TNG was about benign Imperialism... "Do it our way or else"

and even then, TNG didn't follow their own rules. "The Prime Directive" was always followed and flaunted unless Starfleet civilians are involved, then it's brushed aside. in TOS, it was always upheld, and those who broke it faced the consequences.

That's why I loved Voyager, it had so much potential... then they Fucked it up and made it TNG pt II.

The Novel "Federation" best illustrates the difference between both Captains and their relationship with their crews.

I vote Picard, mainly because Patrick Stewart is one of my favorite actors! I loved him in that verison of The Christmas Carol. I even have it on DVD!

Depends on if you prefer mythology or history. Personally, if I want to watch history there's always the History Channel. I'd rather see a guy who can personally kick ass, out-think a computer and bag every beautiful alien babe he meets. That's a man! Go Kirk :D

Patrick Stewart is really able to bring Picard to life, and that's why he's better than Shatner's Kirk. Has anyone seen Stewart in his dramatization of Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol"? He's the finest actor of our age.

I saw him do his one man show of that in Santa Barbara many years ago. Excellent show.

But I still vote for Kirk. He was a more interesting and fun character than Picard ever was. Picard was a wussy little- Oh, lets talk this out instead of fighting - borefest of a character. Kirk said screw that, fuck with him and he blows your ass out of orbit. And he always got the girl. Gotta respect a guy who can get laid anywhere, at anytime.

Diplomats bore me.

Edited to add: If I was gonna rank the ST commanders, it would be this:

1- Kirk
2- Sisko
3- Archer
4- Picard
5- Janeway

More and updated list here (http://www.geocities.com/phineasbg/krkbest.html).

100. Kirk is a leader, not a follower.

99. Kirk never really got into that kinky "Jumpsuit" look.

98. Kirk has sex more than once a season.

97. One Word: Hair.

96. Another Word: Pretty-good-looking-can't-see-the-weave-WIG.

95. Kirk can beat up a Klingon bare-handed.

94. Picard is a French man with an English accent.

93. Kirk would date Beverly Crusher -- and damn the consequences!!

92. Kirk never drinks tea. Ever.

91. Diplomacy for Kirk is a phaser and a smirk.

90. Kirk would personally throw Wesley off his bridge.

89. Two words: Shoulder Roll.

88. Kirk doesn't wear dresses when admirals arrive for lunch.

87. Kirk once said: "I've got a belly-ache -- and it's a beauty."

86. Kirk would never sing to children in a crisis.

85. Kirk can almost drive a stick shift.

84. Kirk, almost single-handedly, re-populated the Earth's whale population.

83. Kirk says "Prime Directive? What Prime Directive?"

82. Kirk knows 20th Century curses.

81. Kirk was NEVER infiltrated by the Borg and used against the Federation.

80. Kirk ate little coloured cubes and still remained relatively healthy.

79. Kirk made do with obviously low performance technology.

78. Kirk never pretends to be a barber in order to gain a tactical advantage.

77. Kirk wasn't shy about taking his shirt off
--even around those pesky Yeomans.

76. Kirk would never waste a holodeck on something stupid like Dixon Hill.

75. Kirk never once stood up and had to straighten his shirt.

74. One Word: Velour.

73. Kirk can beat a Vulcan at Chess.

72. When Kirk was Picard's age, he retired from Admiral and took to climbing rocks.

71. When Picard was 37, he was only Captain of the lowly freighter, Stargazer. When Kirk was 37, he was Captain of the flagship Enterprise.

70. Kirk liked a good belt of liquor every now and again.

69. One Word: Iman

68. Kirk looks good with a ripped shirt.

67. If Kirk ever met a Ferengi, he would rip off its head and shit down its neck.

66. Kirk says "Shoot first and wait for retaliation."

65. Kirk's first officer NEVER tells him to stay on the bridge.

64. Kirk never leaves the room to bawl somebody out.

63. Kirk doesn't rely on the wisdom of some dumb old janitor to get him out of intergalactic scrapes.

62. Two Words: Funky Sideburns.

61. Kirk never asks his bartender for advice.

60. Kirk never once said "Abandon ship! All hands abandon ship!"

59. Kirk is not politically correct.

58. Kirk never got "dumped" by a woman for an intergalactic busy body named after a letter of the alphabet.

57. Kirk never wore green tights and frolicked about in Sherwood Forest.
Kirk wouldn't look good in tights. Especially at midseason.

56. If there was ever a Klingon on Kirk's bridge, Kirk would likely be dead.

55. Ever hear of a bar shooter called "Make it so?" No? How about a "Beam me up Scotty" then? See the difference?

54. One Word: Miniskirts.

53. Kirk's girlfriends always look good in soft light.

52. Kirk never went anywhere without a whole bunch of guys in red shirts.

51. Kirk's first officer didn't play some wimpy instrument like the trombone.

50. Kirk had more dates than his first officer.

49. The extent of Kirk's knowledge of Klingon vocabulary can be roughly translated as "GO F*CK YOURSELF."

48. If something doesn't speak English -- it's toast.

47. Kirk wasn't some prissy archaeology fan.

46. Picard's middle name isn't tough or awe-inspiring like Tiberius is.

45. If Kirk finds a strange spinning probe, he blows it up.

44. Picard never met Joan Collins.

43. Picard flunked his entrance exams to Starfleet.

42 Picard hasn't fathered any children; Kirk -- probably millions.

41. Kirk has a cool phaser -- not some pansy Braun mix-master.

40. Two Words: Line Delivery.

39. Picard grew up on a quaint little French vineyard, squishing grapes with his toes, while Kirk slung bails of wheat and hay in Iowa to put himself through school.

38. Kirk emphasizes his orations with pertinent hand gestures.

37. Kirk once made a cannon out of bamboo, sulphur, potassium nitrate, charcoal and then fired diamonds into the hearts of his enemies. (Need we say more?)

36. Kirk is not put off by green skin.

35. Kirk knows how to deal with peace loving hippy goofs.

34. Kirk once fought a Greek god. And won.

33. Kirk barely asks for suggestions. And if he does, he asks Spock only.

32. Kirk doesn't let the doctor tell him what to do.

31. One Word: Fisticuffs.

30. Kirk's name is hated throughout the galaxy.

29. Kirk appreciates Shakespeare, but he doesn't let it show.

28. You can never lock up Kirk for very long.

27. Kirk's eulogies can actually make you cry.

26. Kirk plays god with lesser cultures, and then exploits them for resources.

25. Kirk's son would never drop out to become a musician.

24. Kirk can climb up a Jeffries Tube and fix anything.

23. Kirk never hired an engineer with punk glasses.

22. The Klingons didn't have a word for surrender -- until they met Kirk.

21. Kirk's bridge is not beige.

20. Two Words: Crane Shots.

19. Picard likes wimpy violin music -- and coerces Data into playing it.

18. Picard allows cats on board, while Kirk beams away even really cute things, like Tribbles.

17. Kirk is a cultural icon -- Picard is just some guy who's really nice.

16. Kirk specifically ordered a swivel LA-Z-BOY for the bridge.

15. Kirk would never touch SYNTHAHOL.

14. Kirk looks distinguished in reading glasses -- and nobody dares to call him "four eyes."

13. Kirk can infiltrate Gangsters, Nazis, and even the Pentagon -- easily.

12. Picard likes painting nudes, for art's sake.

11. When Kirk doesn't trust the Romulans, he fires at them. When Picard doesn't trust the Romulans, he gets fired at.

10. Kirk never once, ever,wore a wiener wrapping Speedo banana hammock on shore leave.

9. Kirk never gets his command codes locked out by some pimply acting ensign.

8. Kirk doesn't test the engines -- he just fires them up.

7. When Kirk says "Boldly Go," he MEANS it.

6. Three Words: Flying Leg Kick

5. Picard's crew would never ever think of him as a sexual object.

4. Kirk traveled through The Great Barrier, met God, and wasn't even impressed.

3. Kirk's bedroom is a passion pit with electric sheets.

2. Kirk would never let his Chief of Security wear a ponytail.

1. One Word: Balls.

Neither,

The honor goes to Captain Benjamin Sisko. He was the most important Federation officer during the largest war to ever involve the Federation (Dominion War).

He also had the coolest ship, USS Defiant. Is there anything she can't do? (outside of surviving Breen energy weapons that is)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/Sisko_and_Garak.jpg

Sisko was also the only Starfleet Officer who had the balls to lie and use deceit to get the Romulans to join the war against the Dominion. If Picard had to do something like that, he'd protest and whine about it. Sisko was just badass and coordinated with Garak to do some nice dirty work.

picard.
origional star trek was cancelled for a reason.

Yeah, NBC changing the time slot every week probably had a role.

The TOS based movies were far better than any TNG movies. "First Contact" was the only movie worthy of the name Star Trek that was made with TNG characters.

Luke? This isn't Star Wars, damn it. Picard, hands down. He is by far a superior captain in all aspects that matter.

Between Kirk and Picard? Picard, of course. He is a much more solid leader, is capable of harder physical feats than Kirk ever was(in his 70's no less!), and is a man that I think any one of us would truly follow to Hell and back if he asked us to.

With the other captains added, however, Sisko and Picard become equal in terms of standing, methinks. The two best captains in all of Starfleet. I'd gladly follow either one.

Janeway, however, can go screw her psychopathetic self up a wall. You never know WHAT she'll do. I swear, she went insane from the very beginning and no one bothered to notice.

Kirk was a fine leader, but he just doesn't stand up to Picard or Sisko in terms of quality leadership and other necessary abilities.

As for Archer...he was a wannabe at best. "I don't like Vulcans!" "T'Pol is mean to me!" "My daddy invented the Warp Five engine so do what I say!" Sweet Newton, if it weren't for the fact that you're played by Scott Bakula--one of my favorite actors EVER--I'd punch you in the face you freaking whiny baby.

<snip> Sisko was also the only Starfleet Officer who had the balls to lie and use deceit..... <snip>

Yeah, he became a better character when he became more Kirk-like.:D

Yeah, he became a better character when he became more Kirk-like.:D

That's true, but I doubt Kirk would even do what Sisko did.

The DS9 writers even implied that when they had Garak say "or we can just forget the whole enterprise." I own the DVDs and the commentary said that the line was put in there to imply neither Kirk nor Picard would go through with what Sisko did.

Captain Picard without a doubt. Hes an intellectual and has an excellent standing relationship with his crew. I remember reading years ago, a comparison made between Picard and Hitler in terms of leadership skills in someones business studies book, it basically said what I already thought, Picard listens to the suggestions of others and plots the most rational course of action. He doesnt need to get into fights, he usually talks his way out of them, hes a diplomat and an intellectual. But would I follow him into Hell (literally with Satan and demons and so forth) the answer is no. Kirk is the toughest captain out of the whole franchise and would kick Siskos ass. His captaining is of the no bullshit style. Janeway is an idiot and unstable. and insists on the crew calling her maam, ffs why not yes captain. I cant believe anyone would send out their first starship crew in boiler suits with someone as ineffectual as Captain Archer at the helm.

Isnt there some theory according to another tv show that Star Trek, along with Fraiser and a few others series are all the products of some autistic boys imagination?

I say Picard because the RL one isn't old and fat:rolleyes: . Hahmm *cough* but I didn't say that.

I say Picard because the RL one isn't old and fat:rolleyes: . Hahmm *cough* but I didn't say that.

Picard is the kind of guy you want in HQ, coordinating the whole thing and meeting diplomats in official functions to get alliances. In terms of straight out, ship-to-ship battle, it's Kirk all the way. Picard wants advice and to know all the options before giving the order to fire. Kirk follows his gut instinct and just starts blowing shit up.

Picard is the kind of guy you want in HQ, coordinating the whole thing and meeting diplomats in official functions to get alliances. In terms of straight out, ship-to-ship battle, it's Kirk all the way. Picard wants advice and to know all the options before giving the order to fire. Kirk follows his gut instinct and just starts blowing shit up.

Actually, Kirk is the better starship captain. He does better in tactical ship-ship battles. Picard would make the better Admiral though since he is more diplomatic and has a better strategic mind whereas Kirk has a better tactical mindset.

Picard, of course.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f8/Picard_sheep.jpg/200px-Picard_sheep.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timescape_(TNG_episode))

(edit: Plus, there's The Picard Song (http://tborgax.homepage.dk/audio.html) :D )

picard.
origional star trek was cancelled for a reason.
yep... money.

and Star Trek The Next Generation was started because....

the reruns of that cancelled series got very popular... and remains more popular than any of the current series running now.

Picard because Shatner is full of himself. 2 and 6 were good movies and I really liked Kirk in them but the Borg, Q, and not nailing every alien at first contact makes Picard the better of the two. It is really very close. I liked Pike. He should have been given a second chance. The Cage was the better of the two pilots.

I highly suggest Star Trek: Federations by Judith Reeves-Stevens

this book would've made a better movie than ST:Generations and First Contact.

Both Captains find themselves in a situation where they have to rely on each other to succeed... and their only thing that ties each of them to the other is their Training and Loyaty to the Ideals of the Federation.

There are three points in that book that clearly show the difference in both Captains and their relationship with their crews.

Picard because Shatner is full of himself. 2 and 6 were good movies and I really liked Kirk in them but the Borg, Q, and not nailing every alien at first contact makes Picard the better of the two. It is really very close. I liked Pike. He should have been given a second chance. The Cage was the better of the two pilots.

uh... didn't Picard watch a populated planet die because he didn't want to break the Prime Directive?

yet did so when Westly Crusher's life was on the line?

were there not time in ST:TNG where Cptn Picard was ready to leave crewmen to their deaths while Cptn Kirk defied Starfeet to look for crewmen?

isn't it funny that there are more scenes of Cptn Kirk relaxing with his crew than there is of Cptn Picard relaxing with his?

I think it shows that Cptn Picard is fuller of himself than Cptn Kirk.

I highly suggest Star Trek: Federations by Judith Reeves-Stevens

this book would've made a better movie than ST:Generations and First Contact.

Both Captains find themselves in a situation where they have to rely on each other to succeed... and their only thing that ties each of them to the other is their Training and Loyaty to the Ideals of the Federation.

There are three points in that book that clearly show the difference in both Captains and their relationship with their crews.
'Tis a good book, and it also shows why Picard is the better captain.

Spoiler: If I may paraphrase (since my copy is 5,000 miles away currently): When Cochrane and the Companion lay dying, Cochrane asks Picard to turn the ship so that they may see the stars. He notes the Kirk would have been raging against the in envitable and probably hitting random objects. Picard, the more seasoned captain accepts what is going to happen and mearly states, "I will make it so."

'Tis a good book, and it also shows why Picard is the better captain.

Spoiler:

yet... it took a fragment of Kirk's Personality that was embedded in Picard (thanks to his mindmeld with Sarek) to get Picard and his ship out of trouble.

and that maneuver earn High Praises from Worf, after scaring that Klingon speechless! :D

;)

it just shows that Picard will accept things he thinks he cannot change while Kirk will always look for a way. both attributes are positive tho.

I wish I could marry Picard and have his babies. Too bad he's pretty old at this point. ...okay, I wish he were my dad, at least.

Neither,

The honor goes to Captain Benjamin Sisko. He was the most important Federation officer during the largest war to ever involve the Federation (Dominion War).

He also had the coolest ship, USS Defiant. Is there anything she can't do? (outside of surviving Breen energy weapons that is)
Sisko was also the only Starfleet Officer who had the balls to lie and use deceit to get the Romulans to join the war against the Dominion. If Picard had to do something like that, he'd protest and whine about it. Sisko was just badass and coordinated with Garak to do some nice dirty work.

Too bad the actor portaying Sisko was SO BAD. DS9 could have been a lot better if not for that.

yet... it took a fragment of Kirk's Personality that was embedded in Picard (thanks to his mindmeld with Sarek) to get Picard and his ship out of trouble.
That wasn't Kirk, that was Sarek nudging Picard to remind him that not ALL Enterprises were starships.

and that maneuver earn High Praises from Worf, after scaring that Klingon speechless! :D
And he didn't scare the Klingon speechless, Worf was awestruct.

And after seeing it actually happen in X, I can agree. ;)

That wasn't Kirk, that was Sarek nudging Picard to remind him that not ALL Enterprises were starships.nope, re-read it if you get the chance.
and a small voice, one not from Sarek's mind but a mind that Sarek once touched said "change the rules, don't concentrate on your weakness, concentrate on theirs"


And he didn't scare the Klingon speechless, Worf was awestruct.

And after seeing it actually happen in X, I can agree. ;)well, before the order was given, most of the bridge crew knew what those orders were, and Riker, and I think Worf, objected to that course of action.

Between Kirk and Picard? Picard, of course. He is a much more solid leader, is capable of harder physical feats than Kirk ever was(in his 70's no less!), and is a man that I think any one of us would truly follow to Hell and back if he asked us to.
You might follow him to hell, but I doubt his crew would. They'd all want to mince around holodeck 4 getting in touch with their feelings, discussing everything and then want to take a vote on it.
Worse, Picard would allow this.

Kirk's crew, however - when did they ever question his decisions? Every bloody week he was beaming down to an unchartered world with a couple of red shirts who were always slaughtered. Yet did anyone ever turn him down?
Nope! Not once. Even though those red shirts knew they were heading for certain (and no doubt horrible) death, they immediately followed Kirk's every order.

THAT'S Leadership for you.

Nope! Not once. Even though those red shirts knew they were heading for certain (and no doubt horrible) death, they immediately followed Kirk's every order.

THAT'S Leadership for you.

Nah - just religion.
hail Kirk the messiah !

nope, re-read it if you get the chance.
That was there, but there was also that part that said:
An echo of Sarek reminded him that there were other ships called Enterprise before starships. For a moment, he could taste the salt breeze and hear the waves.

well, before the order was given, most of the bridge crew knew what those orders were, and Riker, and I think Worf, objected to that course of action.
No, that was Riker.
"Captain, you can't be serious."
"Never more serious in my life, Number One." Then he pointed at the warbird and gave an order not heard onboard an Enterprise in centuries. "Ensign McKnight..." :D

As good a book as Federations was (the Reeves-Stevens, quite frankly, should be writing anything to do with Trek from now on. They are, simply put, the two best Trek writers ever. I'd swear they channel the spirit of Roddenbarry himself everytime they write. If I believed in that sort of thing of course, which I don't.) we have to remember that it was essentially rendered completely non-canon by the eighth movie, First Contact.

I would disagree that Picard's crew wouldn't follow him to Hell and back, so to speak. Yes, he takes suggestions and debates certain issues with his crew, but that's only when time and opportunity allows it. If he needs to buckle down and have his orders followed NOWNOWNOW, he does it. You see it from time to time. As a matter of fact, First Contact is an excellent example of this. Insurrection also plays right into it, in terms of crew loyalty. Any other crew in the Enterprise's situation in Insurrection would've been more like "Ah hell naw!" and shoved Picard in the brig.

Nah - just religion.
hail Kirk the messiah !
You're right, Kirk is the Messiah!

And Picard just a disciple. And not even a cool disciple everyone knows, like Peter or John. He's one of those guys who was at the end of the table in the Last Supper who no-one can remember their name. Bobby or Harry or something like that. You know, whatisface.

Sisko was also the only Starfleet Officer who had the balls to lie and use deceit to get the Romulans to join the war against the Dominion. If Picard had to do something like that, he'd protest and whine about it. Sisko was just badass and coordinated with Garak to do some nice dirty work.

So he was like a living representation of Malcolm X - By All Means Necessary.

Zapp Brannigan for me.

Kirk, no question.

Kee-rok!

An echo of Sarek reminded him that there were other ships called Enterprise before starships. For a moment, he could taste the salt breeze and hear the waves. and please keep reading...

you'll get to the part where it talks about the thought from a mind that Sarek has touched.
No, that was Riker.
"Captain, you can't be serious."
"Never more serious in my life, Number One." Then he pointed at the warbird and gave an order not heard onboard an Enterprise in centuries. "Ensign McKnight..." :Dagreed. but you have to agree, given the situation, on Kirk's bridge, you wouldn't even get that response.

remember when the Admiral gave a stupid order? everyone stopped and turned to ... KIRK! and when the Captain Countermaned an ADMRIAL's order, they didn't question they did it!

[Kirk Smiled] and as McCoy predicted... it was good. ;)

dude as a recent trekie convert this was a hard chioce but i have to go with picard he was much more patiant disiplined and orderly. as spock once said in the episode called reunification he considered picard as close to being vaulcan as was humanly posible. now if you want a more simular comparisan you could go with say captain sisco vs. kirk check my spelling on sisco. they both seamed very rash and impulsive. they also tended to overlook the simple solutions and strugle with a problem far longer than neccissarry.

and even then, TNG didn't follow their own rules. "The Prime Directive" was always followed and flaunted unless Starfleet civilians are involved, then it's brushed aside. in TOS, it was always upheld, and those who broke it faced the consequences.



need i remind you of the time he distroyed a culturs way of life when no crew membersw would have been at risk if he left quickly. no he had to distroy the machien that provided for the people

Nither. The best capitan was KAAAAAAAHN!!

Piekrom;11637643']need i remind you of the time he distroyed a culturs way of life when no crew membersw would have been at risk if he left quickly. no he had to distroy the machien that provided for the people

Which one was this... the one where the Computer Vaal was pulling the Enterprise down into the atmosphere and the only to save his ship was to destroy the computer? (the Apple)

or when he got an entire planet to pay the federation tribute. the one that was already altered by another ship? (Piece of the Action)

or the Rome one where they had to fight in a Gladatorial Arena... but they didn't alter anything there.. (Bread and Circuses)

Piekrom;11637590']dude as a recent trekie convert

That's possible these days?! I'd have thought Enterprise and what they're planning to do with the XIth movie would've thrown off any new Trekkies. Unless you're a child of Trekkies being introduced to the good stuff of TNG and DS9...

Picard. I'm bound to have my hair done like him in 10 years time...

I'm no nerd but isn't it Jean (not John) Luke Picard. (don't ask me how I know)

Oh and what about t3h Ch1ck 4nd t3h bl4ck d00d!

I'm no nerd but isn't it Jean (not John) Luke Picard. (don't ask me how I know)

Oh and what about t3h Ch1ck 4nd t3h bl4ck d00d!
It's Jean-Luc Picard, to be precise...

and please keep reading...

you'll get to the part where it talks about the thought from a mind that Sarek has touched.
Would if I could, but like I said, my copy of the book is in a box, in a storage unit, in America, and I'm in Japan currently. So everything I'm going off of is memory. When I go home in a few months for Christmas and I can find it, I'll check through. :D

agreed. but you have to agree, given the situation, on Kirk's bridge, you wouldn't even get that response.

remember when the Admiral gave a stupid order? everyone stopped and turned to ... KIRK! and when the Captain Countermaned an ADMRIAL's order, they didn't question they did it!
Kirk never rammed the Enterprise into anything!

Besides, I can say that Picard countermanded a number of admrials. Insurection leaps to mind. Hell, he disobeyed the entirety of Starfleet Command to bring the Enterprise-E to the fight with the Borg in First Contact.

Both of which he had no trouble from his crew for doing so.

Kirk just violated the direct order of the Starfleet Commander (Fleet Admiral Marrow) and went to Genesis when he was told not to, and he got broken because of that and reduced in rank.

And there have been 5 instances of violation of the Prime Directive regarding the orginal Enterprise. And violation of General Order 7, which should have gotten him killed.

To be fair, [NS]Piekrom, Ambassador Spock also said, "In your own way, you are as stubborn as another captain of the Enterprise I once knew," in reference to Picard.

Would if I could, but like I said, my copy of the book is in a box, in a storage unit, in America, and I'm in Japan currently. So everything I'm going off of is memory. When I go home in a few months for Christmas and I can find it, I'll check through. :D I gotta find my copy too...


Kirk never Ahem the Enterprise into anything!nah, he just blew it up... something Picard attempted to do many times.
JTK: My God Bones... What have I done?
LM: What you always do... turn death into a fighting chance.

Besides, I can say that Picard countermanded a number of admrials. Insurection leaps to mind. Hell, he disobeyed the entirety of Starfleet Command to bring the Enterprise-E to the fight with the Borg in First Contact.

Both of which he had no trouble from his crew for doing so.

Kirk just violated the direct order of the Starfleet Commander (Fleet Admiral Marrow) and went to Genesis when he was told not to, and he got broken because of that and reduced in rank.

And there have been 5 instances of violation of the Prime Directive regarding the orginal Enterprise. And violation of General Order 7, which should have gotten him killed.and how many of those violations of the PD were to either a) save his ship and crew, b) save the people of the planet, or c) save the Federation?

lets check.
The Return of the Archons.
wasn't Sulu and several of his crew placed under mind control? There was NO OTHER way to break them free exept to destroy Landru. (saving Federation Personel)

A Taste of Armageddon
their mission was to open Diplomatic Relations. the Enterpise was then caught up in their war. both sides demanded the immediate execution/distintergration of the Federation Personnel on board to prevent real war. (Saving Federation Personnel)

The Apple
Vaal, the super computer was pulling the enterprise down into the atmosphere which would've destroyed them. thus Vaal had to be destroyed. (saving Federation Personell and property.)

A Private Little War
The culture was already changed when the KLINGONS gave one group of people weapons superior to their rivals. Kirk only even the scales. he did not give them greater weapons, but provided the same tech level of weapons. infact, the weapons he provided were stolen from what the Klingon's gave.(Maintaining balance and to correct a move made by Klingons)

A piece of the Action.
while the culture was altered before the Prime Directive was in place, McCoy did admit he left his communicator behind.

Now for Picard...
Justice
Picard tramples over a civilizations laws... one that is already a Member of the Federation. to save Westly's Life. (to save ONE Federation Citizen's Life.)

While there were others, I want to focus on this. while it's true that Kirk did break the PD for a few of his crew, Picard stood by and watched an inhabited planet get destroyed by stating that the Prime Directive prevented him from acting. (Homeward) yet he was willing to break the PD for one kid who did break their laws. did Kirk ever hide behind the PD when lives needed to be saved? no.

Other Episodes where Picard or crew violates the Prime Directive.
Data: PenPals
Worf: Reunion
Picard: Who Watches the Watchers
the entire command Crew: First Contact (when they reveal pieces of the future to Zefram Cochrane.)

5 for 5. I'm not counting Violations made by other ships, or shows.

as for General Order #7, Kirk did not break that... Spock did. and all Kirk did was fight for Spock's life. it was later revealed at the end of the two parter, that Christopher Pike was indeed told he would be welcomed back to Talos IV.

So he was like a living representation of Malcolm X - By All Means Necessary.

Well he did have the blessing of the Federation Council. Sisko had to take that action. Bringing the Romulans onboard is what won the war.

One more thing on SIsko, he can godmode. Remember when he had the prophets erase a 3,000 ship Dominion fleet?:D

Has anyone read the other Reeves-Stevens books?

They have 8 good books out that are written with Shatner. The first deals with Kirk 6 months before the Enterprise B disaster. The next 7 deal with Kirk and Picard. Books 4-6 are my favorite though as they deal with the mirror universe and expand upon the universe we see in DS9 with the Alliance and Rebels.

Well he did have the blessing of the Federation Council. Sisko had to take that action. Bringing the Romulans onboard is what won the war.

One more thing on SIsko, he can godmode. Remember when he had the prophets erase a 3,000 ship Dominion fleet?:D

As I recall, it took a lot of doing to godmode that deletion.

IDF: Shatner writes most of those. I suspect that all the Reeves-Stevens do is touch them up with a little bit of editing. Read those, and then read the ones they do on their own, such as Federations, or the DS9 Millenium trilogy. No comparison in quality. They can do much better than that drek Shatner writes, and they do.

As I recall, it took a lot of doing to godmode that deletion.

IDF: Shatner writes most of those. I suspect that all the Reeves-Stevens do is touch them up with a little bit of editing. Read those, and then read the ones they do on their own, such as Federations, or the DS9 Millenium trilogy. No comparison in quality. They can do much better than that drek Shatner writes, and they do.

He did have to pay a pennance. That pennance ended up being the temporary end of his corporeal existance. (Temporary because he said he would come back someday)

I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case with those books. He did do a good job on the Tek series.

I will read those books you recommended.

I am Kee-rok!

Kee-rok!


Mirimanni!

I am Kee-rok!

Kee-rok!


Mirimanni!

Damn that show was cool... :D

For me, my money's on Kirk. Don't get me wrong, Picard's the man. I grew up with TNG, but after watching TOS a decade after TNG expired, I gotta hand it to Kirk. He's infinitely cooler.

Picard all the way man. He's totally disciplined and a badass even though he's balding. Plus I like his crew better. The only thing he's missing is a vulcan. The android (Data) tops that tho.

Zapp Brannigan for me.
I concur, he is the better of the 3.

Besides, I can say that Picard countermanded a number of admrials. Insurection leaps to mind. Hell, he disobeyed the entirety of Starfleet Command to bring the Enterprise-E to the fight with the Borg in First Contact.

Both of which he had no trouble from his crew for doing so.


when the admiral's ship was destroyed in the battle with the borg in sector 001, picard assumed command of the fleet rather well (and without question), i might add :)

That's possible these days?! I'd have thought Enterprise and what they're planning to do with the XIth movie would've thrown off any new Trekkies. Unless you're a child of Trekkies being introduced to the good stuff of TNG and DS9...

Yea it is posible and no it in not thanks to my parents my parents are to dumb for it. You can thank G4 for that. I like picard and tng better because it is more futurestic. tno explored history way to much and tried to hard to explain mythology and our past and explored to much religion. tng avoided it much better.

I can see the Trek fans aren't going to let this thread die. Good for you. Shows commitment. :)

when the admiral's ship was destroyed in the battle with the borg in sector 001, picard assumed command of the fleet rather well (and without question), i might add :)
He did. But I'm not at all amazed by that. After all, the Enterprise is the flagship of Starfleet and her captain should be someone special...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Borg3.gifhttp://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/borg.gif
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/borg2.gif

:confused:

:confused:

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http://www.sternis-smiley.net/redshirt.gif


That's right, IL "Redshirt" Ruffino - you have just volunteered for an away mission! :eek::p:D

Why isn't Lwaxana in the poll options? :p

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http://www.sternis-smiley.net/redshirt.gif


That's right, IL "Redshirt" Ruffino - you have just volunteered for an away mission! :eek::p:D

Well smack my ass and call me Scotty!

..wait, that's not correct..

Well smack my ass and call me Scotty!

..wait, that's not correct..

http://www.sternis-smiley.net/scott2.gif You're funny, mate :D

Zapp Brannigan for me.
I concur, he is the better of the 3.

Hehe I agree, I think they said in the dir.com. of futurama that the personality of Zapp was as if Captain Kirk was trying to play William Shatner ^^

He did. But I'm not at all amazed by that. After all, the Enterprise is the flagship of Starfleet and her captain should be someone special...

I've always thought Picard should've been a Commodore after "The Best of Both Worlds." Riker is made a Captain, but then once Picard comes back, he suddenly turns into a Commander again. If Picard commanded a small fleet/sector of space or something, and Riker captained the Enterprise, it would've made a lot more sense for Picard to take command of the fleet, then, at least in terms of rank. Furthermore, it would allow for many other instances to make a wee bit more sense, such as Picard's command of that 23 ship fleet in "Redemption."

Kirk for the win. He fought in teh 'Nam.

:D :sniper:

Jean Luc, without a doubt.

Ackbar.

Ackbar.

Wrong sci-fi. LOL.

Besides, Solo was the better ship commander.

Wrong sci-fi. LOL.

Besides, Solo was the better ship commander.


IT'S A TRAP

Captain Kirk. He had the better crew too, because no one is cooler then Spock!

I'm a fan of both, but Captain Kirk is blatently superior.

First contact situations are a great example, as follows:

Captain Picard: I'm Capt. Picard of the Federation Starship Enterprise. We come in peace, yadi yadi yada

Captain Kirk (in space, responding to Spock's report of an unknown ship): Red Alert, battle stations!

Captain Kirk (on planet) *punches the men in the face and snogs the women*

KIRK KIRK KIRK!!!!

He always ended up in a fist fight with his uniform getting torn and the incidental music being massively appropriate!

I mean... IT'S CAPTAIN KIRK!!!! And he was in the mirror universe too!

Both captains do have their virtues, but I have to lean towards Picard over Kirk.

Kirk is a cowboy, a loose cannon at best. If he wasn't a highly instinctive tactical genius, he'd have been drummed out of any military I know in a matter of weeks. I mean, you'd almost think he's captaining the USS Hamburger Hill instead of the Enterprise, judging by the number of people he's lost over the series and the course of the movies. I'm sorry, but over here, if you lose that many bodies to stupidity, there is a board of inquiry, and at least a revision in the training programs. However, Kirk is, as I said, instinctive and intuitive. He's a presence as a leader, although he's quite the man-whore.

Picard, on the other hand, is the 24th century equivalent of a Renaissance prince. He's a scholar, a musician, a warrior, a diplomat, a scientist. He has a strong leadership, and he personifies the role of the captain even better, for he hardly associates with anyone but his senior staff. Also, whenever Picard breaks rules, unlike Kirk, he does it as a last resort and does attempt to do his damnest at damage control before executing the plan, and afterwards. Kirk just goes "All right, how am I going to violate every rule in the book, including the Prime Directive, this week?" In First Contact, the Enterprise was ordered away from the fight, but the comm traffic was enough for Picard to realize that if he didn't make a move and at least add one more starship to the fray, it was game over. And in Insurrection, Picard was given an illegal and unethical order, to abandon a whole planet's population. It is any soldier's duty to disobey illegal orders, and so did Picard. And please note that he tried to take care of it single-handedly and not involve his crew either. But the loyalty he inspires in everyone is a lot greater than the Original Cast, if you ask me. As was proven in ST3: The Search for Spock, where Kirk can only muster his senior staff, and in First Contact, with Data saying "I think I speak for everyone on this ship when I say to Hell with our orders."

And in terms tactical skill, it's Picard hands down. Granted, Kirk with a crippled ship evened out the odds against Khan using the Reliant's command codes. But if he had access to the computer core, why didn't he override all command positions and change the command codes, kill life-support, or let the Reliant sail herself back into a a starbase? Picard, on the other hand, uses battle as a last resort, and even then he negociates before firing. But when he fires, doggedly persistant by using his ship to the best of its abilities, such as in First Contact where he uses the bulk of the Enterprise to shield the Defiant from a killing blow.

And women. Good thing Kirk has the best doctor of the day with him. Point he's at, he must have had every single STD in the book. Picard, on the other hand, has fewer, but far more meaningful relationships. Truly a gentleman, as opposed to a man-whore.

I must agree with everything you just said. you also can not forget the style and general movement of the plot lines in both though as i said earlier. Hey were did you guys get those beam me down scotty smilies and stuff I want them.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4327822273611416271&q=picard+song
'nuff said

You have a point, Dahrujistan. But militarily speaking, I'd far rather be commanded by Kirk than by Picard.

Why? One military axiom: A fair decision now is better than a perfect decision later. Kirk made decisions when he was presented with a situation; Picard, in the face of battle, waffled. Wonderful way to get yourself, and everyone under you, killed.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have meetings and come to a consensus, when there's time; that's a sensible thing to do. But Picard was a manager; Kirk was a Captain.

Picard ftw though I like most of his stuff esp the original movie DUNE. Where he played one of the more important 2ndary characters.

please kirk was a renegade a flop a disater he was lucky to get through the acadamy alive. he knows nothing of disiplin or ristraint and killed every creature he ran across. Picard on the other hand rescued many of these weird creatures take for instance farscape the first or second episod of the sieries. then there was the ship creature that was comiting suicide. he was never directly responsible for the deaths the way kirk was. he tried to save the crystal entity except theat stupid vengefull docter whats her name got in the way. plus kirk hats trobles enough said

Piekrom;11695083']please kirk was a renegade a flop a disater he was lucky to get through the acadamy alive. he knows nothing of disiplin or ristraint and killed every creature he ran across. Picard on the other hand rescued many of these weird creatures take for instance farscape the first or second episod of the sieries. then there was the ship creature that was comiting suicide. he was never directly responsible for the deaths the way kirk was. he tried to save the crystal entity except theat stupid vengefull docter whats her name got in the way.

Do you know how many grammar babies you killed with that?

Piekrom;11695083']please kirk was a renegade a flop a disater he was lucky to get through the acadamy alive. he knows nothing of disiplin or ristraint and killed every creature he ran across. Picard on the other hand rescued many of these weird creatures take for instance farscape the first or second episod of the sieries. then there was the ship creature that was comiting suicide. he was never directly responsible for the deaths the way kirk was. he tried to save the crystal entity except theat stupid vengefull docter whats her name got in the way. plus kirk hats trobles enough said

Like Picard was any better? Remember he does have a fake heart because he got stabbed in a fight in the acedemy

Both captains do have their virtues, but I have to lean towards Picard over Kirk.

Kirk is a cowboy, a loose cannon at best. If he wasn't a highly instinctive tactical genius, he'd have been drummed out of any military I know in a matter of weeks. I mean, you'd almost think he's captaining the USS Hamburger Hill instead of the Enterprise, judging by the number of people he's lost over the series and the course of the movies. I'm sorry, but over here, if you lose that many bodies to stupidity, there is a board of inquiry, and at least a revision in the training programs. However, Kirk is, as I said, instinctive and intuitive. He's a presence as a leader, although he's quite the man-whore.actually, Kirk was an explorer. his ship was out exploring strange new worlds and often he didn't have Starfleet to fall back upon for every event. He was willing to deal for peace but not afraid to fight and he was always ready to take the consiquences of his actions. Balance of Terror, he took responsiblity for crossing into the neutral zone to stop a Romulan Warbird because he didn't have the luxury of time to wait for starfleet's reponse.

as for the number of people he lost? can you give me an number of people he lost due to his so called "foolishness?" Give me examples from the series please?

Picard, on the other hand, is the 24th century equivalent of a Renaissance prince. He's a scholar, a musician, a warrior, a diplomat, a scientist. He has a strong leadership, and he personifies the role of the captain even better, for he hardly associates with anyone but his senior staff. Also, whenever Picard breaks rules, unlike Kirk, he does it as a last resort and does attempt to do his damnest at damage control before executing the plan, and afterwards. Kirk just goes "All right, how am I going to violate every rule in the book, including the Prime Directive, this week?" In First Contact, the Enterprise was ordered away from the fight, but the comm traffic was enough for Picard to realize that if he didn't make a move and at least add one more starship to the fray, it was game over. And in Insurrection, Picard was given an illegal and unethical order, to abandon a whole planet's population. It is any soldier's duty to disobey illegal orders, and so did Picard. And please note that he tried to take care of it single-handedly and not involve his crew either. But the loyalty he inspires in everyone is a lot greater than the Original Cast, if you ask me. As was proven in ST3: The Search for Spock, where Kirk can only muster his senior staff, and in First Contact, with Data saying "I think I speak for everyone on this ship when I say to Hell with our orders." oh please, Picard? a warrior? a REMF if you ask me. that's why the only times Picard went outside of Federation Space is when he's forced to. it was HIS Arrogance that caused the Borg to learn about the Federation. and lot good that warning did for the Federation. He needed help to fight an enemy older than he is for goodness sakes (ST:Generations).

as for his senior staff... Kirk goes for quality, not Quanity. that's why Picard's seinor staff is almost twice the size of Kirk's. and if you notice, only Picard's seinor staff was willing to beam down and fight... so where was his security officers and others... and watch Insurrection again, funny how the First officer and chief engineer are still in uniform while everyone else is in civies... like they were not planning to beam down in full disobediance to Admiral's orders.

and if you notice, Kirk also was willing to go to the Genesis Planet with only the affected Dr. McCoy... everyone else joined in on their own... Including the Ambassadors of other Races!

And in terms tactical skill, it's Picard hands down. Granted, Kirk with a crippled ship evened out the odds against Khan using the Reliant's command codes. But if he had access to the computer core, why didn't he override all command positions and change the command codes, kill life-support, or let the Reliant sail herself back into a a starbase? Picard, on the other hand, uses battle as a last resort, and even then he negociates before firing. But when he fires, doggedly persistant by using his ship to the best of its abilities, such as in First Contact where he uses the bulk of the Enterprise to shield the Defiant from a killing blow. Picard is too by the book, which is why he lost a mock battle with a mothballed starship (a frieghter no less). and as for using Reliant's command codes to shut off life support? so you would sacrifice any federation hostages that might be on the ship? that's not the actions of a warrior, but a brawler. Kirk showed he was a warrior.

and it's easy to protect one ship when your ship is still undamaged. and notice that Picard played favorites by assisting only the Defiant (there were other ships damaged and in danger of being assimulated...) and let's not forget Picard shooting the Borg Sphere before it went back in time... oh that's right, HE DIDN'T EVEN FIRE ONE TORPEDO AT IT BEFORE IT WENT BACK IN TIME!

And women. Good thing Kirk has the best doctor of the day with him. Point he's at, he must have had every single STD in the book. Picard, on the other hand, has fewer, but far more meaningful relationships. Truly a gentleman, as opposed to a man-whore.which shows that Kirk is more human than Picard.

oh, and again, watch the series and count how many women actually sleep with Kirk... you'll be surprised at the real number.

Piekrom;11695083']please kirk was a renegade a flop a disater he was lucky to get through the acadamy alive. he knows nothing of disiplin or ristraint and killed every creature he ran across. Picard on the other hand rescued many of these weird creatures take for instance farscape the first or second episod of the sieries. then there was the ship creature that was comiting suicide. he was never directly responsible for the deaths the way kirk was. he tried to save the crystal entity except theat stupid vengefull docter whats her name got in the way. plus kirk hats trobles enough saidhe killed every creature he ran across... funny, he ran across Kahn in the series... yet Kahn lived... he didn't kill V'ger, Miri's people, started the peace process with the Gorn, met the First Federation, explored more worlds in his 3 seasons than Picard did in his 7...

and he brought an extinct species back.

Kirk or Picard?

I'm more of a Picard fan myself, but what do you think?

Sisko

Unlike the other shows, it is repeatedly emphasized in DS9 how much the senior staff dislike bringing him bad news.

In short...he get's pissed like a Captain should. :D

Kirk. Next Generation needed two guys to replace him.

oh please, Picard? a warrior? a REMF if you ask me. that's why the only times Picard went outside of Federation Space is when he's forced to. it was HIS Arrogance that caused the Borg to learn about the Federation. and lot good that warning did for the Federation. He needed help to fight an enemy older than he is for goodness sakes (ST:Generations).

Age had nothing to do with it, that was Malcom MacDowell! Who was also kicking Kirk's ass as well; they needed to team up to beat him, you can't really use that as an example of Picard being weak.

as for his senior staff... Kirk goes for quality, not Quanity. that's why Picard's seinor staff is almost twice the size of Kirk's.

His ship was also like two or three times as big. And Picard's staff being bigger than Kirk's really goes in his favor if you think about it.

and if you notice, only Picard's seinor staff was willing to beam down and fight... so where was his security officers and others...

By that time in history, Federation security officers knew all about the perils of beaming down to a strange new world with the Captain and other major characters. Can't really blame Picard for that, if anything it shows that Picard's crew was more intelligent.


Picard is too by the book,

He violated the Prime Directive just as much as Kirk.

which is why he lost a mock battle with a mothballed starship (a frieghter no less).

But he also came up with the Picard Maneuver. Besides, Riker was just too badass a first officer, hence his tactical genius - just goes to show again Picard's senior staff strength.


which shows that Kirk is more human than Picard.

Then why did Q choose Picard as the representative of the human race? Heck, the Borg did too. The two most powerful species in the series recognized his l33t humanity. Kirk may have been more of a warrior, but humanity isn't a warrior race.

explored more worlds in his 3 seasons than Picard did in his 7...

That's cuz in Kirk's day, more of the galaxy was unknown. Not fair!

Lastly and most compellingly, Picard never felt the need to hide his baldness with a toupee or Rogaine. He wore it, he used it as a weapon! :p

Age had nothing to do with it, that was Malcom MacDowell! Who was also kicking Kirk's ass as well; they needed to team up to beat him, you can't really use that as an example of Picard being weak.

If I remember correctly Kirk beat up Sauron and Sauron ran from Kirk. He certainly wasn't kicking Kirk's ass.

Yeah, NBC changing the time slot every week probably had a role.

The TOS based movies were far better than any TNG movies. "First Contact" was the only movie worthy of the name Star Trek that was made with TNG characters.

Three words:

Star Trek Five.

kirk without a doubt,after all he was more savage :rolleyes:

I like them both, but Ive gotta go with Picard. Shame the character is a frenchy.

Age had nothing to do with it, that was Malcom MacDowell! Who was also kicking Kirk's ass as well; they needed to team up to beat him, you can't really use that as an example of Picard being weak.watch Generations again...

His ship was also like two or three times as big. And Picard's staff being bigger than Kirk's really goes in his favor if you think about it.no it doesn't.... unless you believe in bigger government. and ever wonder what happened to all those "family Members" they brought on board? they kinda slowly disappear during the series...

and all the personal problems they must've had to need a "Councilor"

and poor Worf... first Weapons officer, then head of security, then communications officer... no wonder he transferred to DS9!

Who was the Science Officer... Data? he was then made Navigator!

Heck, their "voyages" were so boring even their Doctor could study and obtain Command Rank.

By that time in history, Federation security officers knew all about the perils of beaming down to a strange new world with the Captain and other major characters. Can't really blame Picard for that, if anything it shows that Picard's crew was more intelligent.considering that Picard was patroling within known federation space, on a planet considered peaceful and safe (we were talking about Insurrection) and they still refused to beam down with him does not show the loyalty Daruhjistan said was more prevailant towards Picard. after all, they are completely, and openly refusing to do their job!


He violated the Prime Directive just as much as Kirk.and that means what when talking about tactical skills?

But he also came up with the Picard Maneuver. Besides, Riker was just too badass a first officer, hence his tactical genius - just goes to show again Picard's senior staff strength. which one was this... the one that he does every time he stands up (tugging his shirt down, which shows he can't even order uniforms that properly fit him.) or the one where he engages a warp hop. an energy consuming maneuver that without pinpoint accuracy, can be deady for both ships.

and during combat, it's not the FIRST OFFICER that is in command, but the CAPTIAN. so you are right, it does say alot of the captain if the first officer is better at commanding a starship in combat than the Captain is.

also, realize that Kirk is the YOUNGEST starfleet officer to command a starship.

Then why did Q choose Picard as the representative of the human race? Heck, the Borg did too. The two most powerful species in the series recognized his l33t humanity. Kirk may have been more of a warrior, but humanity isn't a warrior race.simple... Opportunity. Picard was at the right place at the right time. not because he was better.

and remember what Picard said in First Contact... the borg queen just didn't want a drone, but someone who would surrender himself totally to her. so PICARD voluntarily submitted himself to the cast iron bitch... that's why he wasn't subhumed like the others and could be brought back, he surrendered himself to become Locutus.

That's cuz in Kirk's day, more of the galaxy was unknown. Not fair! so you're saying that in 70+ years, they explored ALL of the Alpha Quadrant.. and what of the other quadrants?

Lastly and most compellingly, Picard never felt the need to hide his baldness with a toupee or Rogaine. He wore it, he used it as a weapon! :p... ok, that I will agree with. :D

I'll just assume you meant Jean Luc Picard[/spelling naziism]

MAKE IT SO!

Is this thread spurred by Weird Al's latest song...

KEE-ROK! I am KEE-ROK!

watch Generations again...


Thank you no. It sucked. :p


no it doesn't.... unless you believe in bigger government. and ever wonder what happened to all those "family Members" they brought on board? they kinda slowly disappear during the series...

I don't believe in bigger government, but proper command and control of a ship is another matter entirely. Especially given how prone these people are to sending their command officers on dangerous away missions, it's good to have a few extra ones.

and all the personal problems they must've had to need a "Councilor"

That was cuz of the families you just mentioned. But really, I didn't notice that the counsellor was ever really "needed" anyway.

and poor Worf... first Weapons officer, then head of security, then communications officer... no wonder he transferred to DS9!

He was getting promotions all the time! He was wasted on weapons. Even though he's a Klingon, these are starfleet weapons we're talking about - push a button, no big deal.

Who was the Science Officer... Data? he was then made Navigator!

Well, Spock was science officer, and also second in command no? They can do more than one job.

Heck, their "voyages" were so boring even their Doctor could study and obtain Command Rank.

Doc McCoy became Admiral. It happens.

considering that Picard was patroling within known federation space, on a planet considered peaceful and safe (we were talking about Insurrection) and they still refused to beam down with him does not show the loyalty Daruhjistan said was more prevailant towards Picard. after all, they are completely, and openly refusing to do their job!

Oh, I don't think they were more loyal to him than anyone else. Really, starfleet crew seem loyal to the point of stupidity. "Hey, red shirt guy - go check behind that strange looking furry rock, would ya?" "SURE!"

As for insurrection, I only saw that once, and I blocked the memory of it out. You'd do well to do the same :p


and that means what when talking about tactical skills?

I dunno, but you seemed to mention Kirk's violations in some sort of prideful way, I was only pointing out that Picard violated them just as much.

which one was this... the one that he does every time he stands up (tugging his shirt down, which shows he can't even order uniforms that properly fit him.) or the one where he engages a warp hop. an energy consuming maneuver that without pinpoint accuracy, can be deady for both ships.

The latter. It was effective, not much more you can ask from a military maneuver.

and during combat, it's not the FIRST OFFICER that is in command, but the CAPTIAN. so you are right, it does say alot of the captain if the first officer is better at commanding a starship in combat than the Captain is.

The first officer is in command if the captain is killed (or for example, assimilated by Borg). In fact, had Picard not tutored Riker as good as he had, humanity would have been wiped out completely. Besides, command officers should be good at command, and if they're better in some situations than the captain, so what? That's a strength, not a weakness - it's not like Picard was incompetent.

also, realize that Kirk is the YOUNGEST starfleet officer to command a starship.

He cheated on that test. He owed his command to his ability to be a dishonest computer programmer!

simple... Opportunity. Picard was at the right place at the right time. not because he was better.

Time is irrelevant to the Q. They could easily have chosen Kirk, but didn't.

and remember what Picard said in First Contact... the borg queen just didn't want a drone, but someone who would surrender himself totally to her. so PICARD voluntarily submitted himself to the cast iron bitch... that's why he wasn't subhumed like the others and could be brought back, he surrendered himself to become Locutus.

Wait wait, he was Locutus way back when, not in the borg queen incident. In the former, he had no choice - in the latter, he was choosing to sacrifice himself to save others, and/or indulge in a nefarious plan to trick and defeat the borg using his prior experience and knowledge. I'm sure Kirk would have approved, or tried out his fist-fighting skills and gotten borg foot up his ass.

so you're saying that in 70+ years, they explored ALL of the Alpha Quadrant.. and what of the other quadrants?

They certainly did! The other quadrants were just a bit out of range for the technology, hence why Voyager in Delta Quadrant was a big shame. Gamma Quadrant too except for that wormhole. They were IIRC in Beta Quadrant and Alpha Quadrant, but its undeniable that they explored a lot of stuff in that time and therefore, there was less to explore later.

I can't believe I'm arguing about this. I feel so geeky.

But geeky is okay. After all, it's no different from fantasy football arguments. Only the subject matter changes. Same level of interest, as I've always said.

Captain Morgan, best captain EVER!:p

Thank you no. It sucked. :p... yeah... agreed...



I don't believe in bigger government, but proper command and control of a ship is another matter entirely. Especially given how prone these people are to sending their command officers on dangerous away missions, it's good to have a few extra ones.so you're, calling the command crew "spares"...

proper command of a ship is that the captain is in charge.. period.

That was cuz of the families you just mentioned. But really, I didn't notice that the counsellor was ever really "needed" anyway. yet she ended up qualifying for the center seat.

He was getting promotions all the time! He was wasted on weapons. Even though he's a Klingon, these are starfleet weapons we're talking about - push a button, no big deal.yet they still need him for all those roles...

Well, Spock was science officer, and also second in command no? They can do more than one job.back then... but in TNG...

Doc McCoy became Admiral. It happens.but that wasn't while he was still CMO.

Oh, I don't think they were more loyal to him than anyone else. Really, starfleet crew seem loyal to the point of stupidity. "Hey, red shirt guy - go check behind that strange looking furry rock, would ya?" "SURE!"and that's the point. in TOS, when a command was given, or a command officer in trouble, they would assist to the point of sacrifice. in TNG, the captain can collect a stockpile of weapons from their armory and where is everyone?

I dunno, but you seemed to mention Kirk's violations in some sort of prideful way, I was only pointing out that Picard violated them just as much.... oh. them...
the point was, back then, Kirk violated alot of rules and regs, but he took responsibility for them. most of the prime directive infractions that people bring up was more to correct or balance out the infractions others did. Picard tho, would violate the prime directive to save Westly, while standing behind it while an inhabited planet is destroyed... wotta guy.

the comment about Picard being too by the book was in response to tactical ability.

The latter. It was effective, not much more you can ask from a military maneuver.it was also unneccesarily risky. and if you look back, it was done as a last ditch effort. so it really wasn't put as a standard tactical maneuver.

The first officer is in command if the captain is killed (or for example, assimilated by Borg). In fact, had Picard not tutored Riker as good as he had, humanity would have been wiped out completely. Besides, command officers should be good at command, and if they're better in some situations than the captain, so what? That's a strength, not a weakness - it's not like Picard was incompetent.Riker wasn't green when he was assigned to the Enterprise. so Picard wasn't Riker's only tutor. the real telling was that mock combat. Picard underestimated Riker because Picard was blinded by all the "Advantages" he thought he had. Better ship, better sheilds, more resources, experience... etc... and Riker still handed Picard his butt.


He cheated on that test. He owed his command to his ability to be a dishonest computer programmer!The Kobayashi Maru was an Exercise, back then passing it, wasn't a requirement for Captancy. Remember McCoy's statement... Kirk was the ONLY one to beat the no-win scenario.

He may have cheated, but he had the right attitude. "Think outside the box"

However, the TNG's version of the No-Win Scenario was a requirement for Command Rank. That's why Riker could not give Dr Crusher command ability till after she passed it.

Time is irrelevant to the Q. They could easily have chosen Kirk, but didn't.*coughTrelanecough*

the Q Continum did not exsist in the minds of the Writers back then. Infact, TNG strove to re-write the history to "correct factual errors" they made back then. for instance...
Zefram Cochrane was from Alpha Centari (Earths First Colony) and his warp ship went from Alpha Centari to Earth. that is what drew the attention of the First Federation to Earth. After Earth was inducted into the Federation, the First Federation stepped back and allowed Earth to become the new center when they had some internal problems.

So Zefram Cochrane was from Alpha Centari, not some booze swilling, rock-n-roll dancing hillbilly.

Wait wait, he was Locutus way back when, not in the borg queen incident. In the former, he had no choice - in the latter, he was choosing to sacrifice himself to save others, and/or indulge in a nefarious plan to trick and defeat the borg using his prior experience and knowledge. I'm sure Kirk would have approved, or tried out his fist-fighting skills and gotten borg foot up his ass.watch it again. In FIRST CONTACT, he was referencing the time when he was made into a borg. that's why he was so sure that the Borg Queen wanted him. because he did surrender himself to her before... not knowing that she/it was courting Data.

They certainly did! The other quadrants were just a bit out of range for the technology, hence why Voyager in Delta Quadrant was a big shame. Gamma Quadrant too except for that wormhole. They were IIRC in Beta Quadrant and Alpha Quadrant, but its undeniable that they explored a lot of stuff in that time and therefore, there was less to explore later. Map (http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/federation.htm) lots of unexplored space in the Alpha and Beta quadrants...

I can't believe I'm arguing about this. I feel so geeky.true, but it's better to argue this then getting pissed or worse in one of the other Political/Religous/Homosexual threads..

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of how awesome Kirk is.

http://echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_captkirk.jpg

See that is why i do not favor kirk he reminds me too much of our idiotic Pres. Bush

Piekrom;11720115']See that is why i do not favor kirk he reminds me too much of our idiotic Pres. Bush
Kirk may deserve a lot - but that was really uncalled for! ;)