NationStates Jolt Archive

In my high school we have Community Involvement class and my Com. Inv. assignment is with a classroom of 7th graders. They gave powerpoint presentations today and I was BLOWN AWAY by their inability to spell. The No Child Left Behind program is not helping the slower kids, it is simply inhibiting every single one of them. America is ranked 26th in the world for education. It isn't the fault of the teachers. What is happening here? Why are we dumbing down American schools? Why is one of the world's most powerful countries raising a generation of idiots? WHY?

CJ

This doesn't belong in the UN forum. Moved to General.

I don't know what the Act does, but it's a shitty name for a law.

"No Child Left Behind Act"? What sort of name is that? Sounds like a gimmick. Of course, it might well be, but I don't know about the Act.

Legislation in the UK has proper names...No Child Left Behind would probably be called the Education (Inclusion and Reform) Act or something. A name that sounds appropriate for a law.

Didn't you hear? The Secretary of education(or was it the undersecretary?) said No Child is working 99.9%

So you must be lying. ;)

In my high school we have Community Involvement class and my Com. Inv. assignment is with a classroom of 7th graders. They gave powerpoint presentations today and I was BLOWN AWAY by their inability to spell. The No Child Left Behind program is not helping the slower kids, it is simply inhibiting every single one of them. America is ranked 26th in the world for education. It isn't the fault of the teachers. What is happening here? Why are we dumbing down American schools? Why is one of the world's most powerful countries raising a generation of idiots? WHY?

CJ

According to FOX News (I watch it for a laugh) it's the fault of the unions!

In truth, though, I think it's actually the fact that Education is poorly funded in the US, and that there's not a particularly great culture of learning (even the language is cut-down English to make things easy).

Get rid of stuff like the Flag Pledge (mixing education with blind patriotism is always wrong) and make an education look appealing, as well as remove the stigma attached to doing well (the concept of "nerds" etc.) and things might improve.

no child left behind has nothing to do with lack of spelling skills

that must be laid at the feet of "whole language".

amongst other things, in whole language your spelling words come from the current reading lesson. systematic spelling is never taught. correct spelling isnt ever emphasized because it inhibits kids from developing good writing skills.

There's actually a brilliant attack on the No Child Left Behind act found within To Kill a Mockingbird, a book which predates the act by 41 years.

The act could more accurately be called No Child Gets Ahead.

"less bombs more books" would be something along the lines of what I would do (and for Gods sakes try to set up a curriculum that doesn’t create ignorant American stereotypes)

Also do extensive work on the food in schools “a sugar filled child cannot become knowledge filled child”

edit: there 7th graders probably just doing a piss about presentation don't be such a spelling wasp

no child left behind has nothing to do with lack of spelling skills

that must be laid at the feet of "whole language".

amongst other things, in whole language your spelling words come from the current reading lesson. systematic spelling is never taught. correct spelling isnt ever emphasized because it inhibits kids from developing good writing skills.
I'm going to object to that. I'm a big proponent of the whole language system, and I think it does result in strong spelling skills if it's taught properly. A more mechanical teaching method like phonics tends to produce simplified and incorrect phonetic spellings because it encourages guessing.

I suppose it isn't possible that school districts are lying about the status of their students? That CAN"T be right! With that and those awful standardized tests it is no surprise kids graduate and know absolutely nothing worthwhile.

With that and those awful standardized tests it is no surprise kids graduate and know absolutely nothing worthwhile.
I've done 3 sets of SATS, other exams every year, modular tests, a CAT (Cognitive Ability Test) and my GCSE, and I feel I gained a fair bit from school, actually.

I'm going to object to that. I'm a big proponent of the whole language system, and I think it does result in strong spelling skills if it's taught properly. A more mechanical teaching method like phonics tends to produce simplified and incorrect phonetic spellings because it encourages guessing.

there are definite benefits to whole language but spelling isnt one of them.

perhaps you can grant that in the hands of a lesser practioner than yourself--lets say one of those crappy bored teachers that plague school systems across the country--whole language doesnt result in great spelling. the mechanical busy-work approach works much better with teachers like this.

im sure that whole language has had to be modified a bit to allow some systematic teaching of spelling but, again, not all teachers keep up with changes in theory.

I've done 3 sets of SATS, other exams every year, modular tests, a CAT (Cognitive Ability Test) and my GCSE, and I feel I gained a fair bit from school, actually.

well I for one haven’t all I’ve leant is coursework is bullshit that is impossible to do so you may as well quit early (though oddly enough my “illegally acquired” coursework got through)

Mind you I sort of gave up on school right before the GCSE’s (yes Girls are my Kryptonite!) so I suggest we stretch the GCSE’s out a tad a good point to add is this will cut down on the stress (albeit messing up P.E and Drama lessons shitloads)

I suppose it isn't possible that school districts are lying about the status of their students? That CAN"T be right! With that and those awful standardized tests it is no surprise kids graduate and know absolutely nothing worthwhile.

the testing system used in no child left behind makes cheating/manipulation pretty easy.

read "freakonomics" for a great discussion of teachers cheating to make their students look better. its very enlightening.

there are definite benefits to whole language but spelling isnt one of them.
The primary reason I like it is because it results in superior reading speed and comprehension.

The kids can often breeze through complicated text and absorb the full meaning without having any idea how to pronounce some of the words they just read.

The US isn't going to be considered a superpower much longer...

well I for one haven’t all I’ve leant is coursework is bullshit that is impossible to do so you may as well quit early (though oddly enough my “illegally acquired” coursework got through)
It's pretty important to do it, though, unless you're in the mind to really fuck up getting into college and hence uni, therefore enjoying the rest of your life.
Mind you I sort of gave up on school right before the GCSE’s (yes Girls are my Kryptonite!) so I suggest we stretch the GCSE’s out a tad a good point to add is this will cut down on the stress (albeit messing up P.E and Drama lessons shitloads)[/QUOTE]
Music is my Kryptonite, but I managed to stay on top of deadlines (by doing things literally on the last day and still netting A*s - yes!).

And I don't think that GCSEs need to be stretched out - I had a nervous breakdown due to them, admittedly, but that was really due to a whole number of factors.

Since college takes place over two years as well, I think having two-year GCSEs prepares people better than if they were over, say, three or four years.

I've done 3 sets of SATS, other exams every year, modular tests, a CAT (Cognitive Ability Test) and my GCSE, and I feel I gained a fair bit from school, actually.

Lucky you. I for one feel I graduated and didn't know anything that would help me that much when I started college.

I've done 3 sets of SATS, other exams every year, modular tests, a CAT (Cognitive Ability Test) and my GCSE, and I feel I gained a fair bit from school, actually.

What amazes me is that people think that merely spending more money on education will make a big difference.

It often doesn't. They spend more money per pupil in Washington DC schools than they do where I live, and our schools are in the top 3% of schools in the US - while DC Public Schools are somewhere in the basement.

It's not all about money, teachers, or standardized tests.

If parents aren't involved in the process of education, and the parents believe that the school is responsible for everything, the kids will turn out below average, no matter how much money you spend on them.

I've seen it too many times.

The US isn't going to be considered a superpower much longer...

American education has always been shit hasn't it?

my old science teacher (very old guy) said that when he first started teaching (back when people wrote with feather pens:p ) kids paid attention and worked hard but every year its just got worse and worse especially in attention and behaviour…come to think of it I should of asked him what he thinks caused this

I for one blame failing school grades (this is actually quite big not just America) on poor school meals and a lack of will to get the grades (you will notice in poorer nations children get good meals and actually have a will to get out of where they are)

American education has always been shit hasn't it?

my old science teacher (very old guy) said that when he first started teaching (back when people wrote with feather pens:p ) kids paid attention and worked hard but every year its just got worse and worse especially in attention and behaviour…come to think of it I should of asked him what he thinks caused this

I for one blame failing school grades (this is actually quite big not just America) on poor school meals and a lack of will to get the grades (you will notice in poorer nations children get good meals and actually have a will to get out of where they are)

Here we go, the reason that schools suck here (one good reason) - and they spend plenty of money on education in California.

http://www.vvdailypress.com/2006/115669067893658.html

Students prepare to leave for the day from Silverado High School in Victorville. An issue has risen whether teachers need to adjust how they interact with and discipline students, particularly those from difficult backgrounds.

One teacher has stepped forward to air her concerns publicly, although she said she is concerned about how doing so could affect her job security.

“There is a cultural war going on and evidently it is going on right at this school site,” said Julie Behrse, an art teacher at Maverick High School. “It really is a movement, and now it has a name,” she added, referring to what Speaker Ray Culberson called the “new professionalism.”

At issue is whether teachers need to adjust how they interact with and discipline students who misbehave, particularly students from difficult backgrounds.

Culberson, director of youth services for the San Bernardino City Unified School District, said at a back-to-school inservice meeting that students today have less respect for authority than they did when many teachers were in school and consequently, some teachers have unrealistic expectations of their students.

According to Culberson, many teenagers come to school with baggage from problems at home or other areas of their lives. Culberson described these students, who are prone to disruptive behavior, as “kids in chaos.”

The district superintendent, Julian Weaver, said Culberson’s message does not represent a change in district disciplinary policy, but Victor Valley has many students from chaotic backgrounds such as Culberson described, and teachers need to learn to interpret their students’ body language. When a student is visibly agitated, the teacher might not want to push any buttons by asking if he or she brought in homework that day.

“We need to see ourselves as teachers and adults in the classroom,” Weaver said, “but we shouldn’t see ourselves as dictators, where students see themselves as far less than the teacher.”

A teacher at Silverado High School, who asked to remain anonymous to protect her job, said she understood Culberson’s message to be that teachers need to do everything possible to reach students and keep them in school.

When Culberson asked the audience how many times they could tolerate hearing “f--- you” from a student and said he could personally handle more than 100 instances a day, the teacher said she felt the presentation became a bit “off the wall.” A teacher next to her told her that she would not tolerate one case of swearing.

Teachers should never take anything a student says personally, Culberson said. He referred to a teacher’s personal “f--- you” meter, meaning the number of times a teenager swears at them before they would discipline the student. If teachers have a low tolerance for bad behavior and frequently send a student out of the classroom, the students will drive them crazy whereas teachers with a high tolerance will be able to calmly follow school procedure and still discipline the student, Culberson said in an interview. Maverick High School principal Beth Crane declined to comment on Culberson’s speech, but principal Tracy Marsh of Silverado High School said state law prohibits vulgarity and swearing in the classroom and allows discipline ranging from suspension to being expelled, no matter what background a student comes from.

“Nothing a person from San Bernardino says can change state law,” Marsh said. “We do want to make sure that the example is set and the tone it set,” he said, referring to student behavior.

He added that although he did not attend the inservice, he spoke to four teachers at Silverado High School who heard the presentation and described it as a positive experience.

According to Weaver, Culberson received a standing ovation.

“Everything that I do is designed for the mental health of the teacher,” Culberson said, and added that he gives presentations free of charge.

Reading isn't 'cool'. That's the main problem. Kids don't read anymore and so their general vocabulary and knowledge is going down the drain... and fast. I blame pop culture and predator corporations.

I'm in Canada, so I'm not sure how similar the standard of education is with America.

It's pretty important to do it, though, unless you're in the mind to really fuck up getting into college and hence uni, therefore enjoying the rest of your life.

pfft happiness =/= big pay check (and you can actually do the courses again if you want/need to)

Music is my Kryptonite, but I managed to stay on top of deadlines (by doing things literally on the last day and still netting A*s - yes!).

what about revision? (though I do feel terrible for being part of the reason an A* student got average grades :( )

And I don't think that GCSEs need to be stretched out - I had a nervous breakdown due to them, admittedly, but that was really due to a whole number of factors.

ah but I don't think summer-ish is the best time to do revision

Here we go, the reason that schools suck here (one good reason) - and they spend plenty of money on education in California.

http://www.vvdailypress.com/2006/115669067893658.html

ah but it ignores the fact that if your working hungry or full of sugar you aren’t going to work hard not much we can do beyond there (and even that pushes it)

also the article points out teaching methods which I think is important because some teachers really can be terrible thus destroying the students education (though sadly these are usually nice teachers)

I don't really know what you mean by "slow children". But Bush already increased special education funding. You have to realize, that every other child has an capability of getting straight A's. BUT there are disorders in some children developed in life, such as ADD, ADHD. But there are medications for that. But it doesn't matter, my sister has ADHD, and she almost gets straight A's. So it's really a matter of choice, whether the child wants to do the work, you can't force a child to do better in school. Alot of parents send their children to boarding school because they cant concentrate in regular school. There are other ways to graduate high school, taking the proficiency test, taking a G.E.D.. So you can't really say our education system is fucked up. It's only a matter of the child's will to learn, that is all. And I can say you lack that.

Have you ever noticed the increasing percentage of children doing marijuana? Maybe that has something to do with it. Other than that, you're an idiot, and I see you need to be learning better, the government can't make you learn better when you already have the tools, the plan, and the ability to do it.

Reading isn't 'cool'. That's the main problem. Kids don't read anymore and so their general vocabulary and knowledge is going down the drain... and fast. I blame pop culture and predator corporations.

I'm in Canada, so I'm not sure how similar the standard of education is with America.

In high school, we have to read 4 books in the year. We have read atleast 5 books in english class. It's just the child's freedom to do it, we can't force people to read in public schools.

The US isn't going to be considered a superpower much longer...

Yeah and 6/06/06 is still gonna be the end of the world.

no child left behind has nothing to do with lack of spelling skills

that must be laid at the feet of "whole language".

amongst other things, in whole language your spelling words come from the current reading lesson. systematic spelling is never taught. correct spelling isnt ever emphasized because it inhibits kids from developing good writing skills.
I agree. I just missed the "whole language" craze around here by a few years and the literacy levels have steadily declined ever since that crap got started around here.


the testing system used in no child left behind makes cheating/manipulation pretty easy.

read "freakonomics" for a great discussion of teachers cheating to make their students look better. its very enlightening.

The teachers around here cheat all the damn time, kids aren't allowed to get below a C, if they score lower it gets marked as a C, and a good 8-10 weeks before "the test" (as it's refered to around here) is spent teaching exactly what is on the test, practicing marking in the little bubbles, and focused on "how to guess" if too many kids don't pass "on grade level" then they go and diagnose a few with learning disabilities. (I realize that learning disabilities do exist, but not in the proportion stated in the local school district)


In high school, we have to read 4 books in the year. We have read atleast 5 books in english class. It's just the child's freedom to do it, we can't force people to read in public schools.
what?! You read more than that surely?

My 5 year old has 37 books assigned this year for school (I made the reading list last night) and most of them are 200+ pages, she will read more for fun though, but really 4 books? what are they teaching you?

I'm going to object to that. I'm a big proponent of the whole language system, and I think it does result in strong spelling skills if it's taught properly. A more mechanical teaching method like phonics tends to produce simplified and incorrect phonetic spellings because it encourages guessing.

I feel a phoenetic, positional, ABSOLUTELY regular, universal language would help education as a whole. Less rules means less to mess up.

what?! You read more than that surely?

My 5 year old has 37 books assigned this year for school (I made the reading list last night) and most of them are 200+ pages, she will read more for fun though, but really 4 books? what are they teaching you?

How can you possibly have enough time to read close to 40 books in a school year? Never mind a 5 year old actually reading that many. :confused:

How can you possibly have enough time to read close to 40 books in a school year? Never mind a 5 year old actually reading that many. :confused:

She is in school for 44 weeks out of the year, thats less than a book a week. Some of the books are shorter, 19 of them are under 150 pages. 18 are between 200 and 250.

She can read a 200 page book in about 4 days, so it's not that heavy of a work load. I don't stop her from reading on breaks either though if she wants to get ahead.

Edit: so I guess I was mistaken in saying that the majority were over 200 pages, my bad. About half of them are.

Reading isn't 'cool'. That's the main problem. Kids don't read anymore and so their general vocabulary and knowledge is going down the drain... and fast. I blame pop culture and predator corporations.

I'm in Canada, so I'm not sure how similar the standard of education is with America.

No, reading is not "cool". I like reading but it's not "cool" (and I'm 14!) but it's just that stigma of being a nerd when oyu like to read, and that stigma is entirely the fault of the singers in Hollywood who oftentimes never finished high school. The crap in the education system is the fault of kids buying into American pop culture WAYYY too much, idiot parents thinking school will do everything for their kids, and idiot government officials that are just trying to look like they're actually doing something.

And the whole "No Child Left Behind" Act is a bunch of crap, the gifted kids (me being one of them) are being left back, while the average-to-below-average kids are being left farther back. It's the Act's fault, basically. In North Carolina there are "motivator laws", to keep kids in school. If the kids don't pass their classes the state takes their liscenses away, and they can't skip on exam days if they fail class or skip. It's sad, really. :(

She is in school for 44 weeks out of the year, thats less than a book a week. Some of the books are shorter, 19 of them are under 150 pages. 18 are between 200 and 250.

She can read a 200 page book in about 4 days, so it's not that heavy of a work load. I don't stop her from reading on breaks either though if she wants to get ahead.

Edit: so I guess I was mistaken in saying that the majority were over 200 pages, my bad. About half of them are.

Wow. Kids in my old high school would have gone nuts if they had to read anything like a book a week. A book a month would be more acceptable. :)

Wow. Kids in my old high school would have gone nuts if they had to read anything like a book a week. A book a month would be more acceptable. :)

she likes to read, if I tried to impose a book a month she would probably freak out. :p Her curriculum is heavy on reading, she learns all subjects from books besides math and science.

Have you ever noticed the increasing percentage of children doing marijuana? Maybe that has something to do with it. Other than that, you're an idiot, and I see you need to be learning better, the government can't make you learn better when you already have the tools, the plan, and the ability to do it.

I doubt marijuana is the cause (it actually makes you pay attention for hours over boring crap so its good for revision:) )

also if your a tad slow in a subject it is awfully hard to get over the "why bother feeling" which really will bring you down (for me it was English grammar in particular)

you also seem to use your sisters experience as an example of how all children should achieve but the fact is people come from different backgrounds and may not have the will or understanding to achieve I wouldn’t say this is there fault or anyone’s really its just the way things have become

she likes to read, if I tried to impose a book a month she would probably freak out. :p Her curriculum is heavy on reading, she learns all subjects from books besides math and science.

Incredible. Hey, how many books are there that are 200 pages that are for kids that young?

Incredible. Hey, how many books are there that are 200 pages that are for kids that young?

she reads books that I read in junior high and high school and a few that didn't get read until college. I have to read all those books too so that we can discuss and disect them, that's why often I am reading 6+ books at a time, my normal 4 and then 2 to try to stay ahead of her so that I can plan assignments better.

Her reading list last year spanned from Judy Blume, to Orson Wells, to Douglas Adams, to James Madison (although those were essays ;))

Incredible. Hey, how many books are there that are 200 pages that are for kids that young?

Not many. :eek: She must be reading books intended for preteens...

Books are the only media that I find acceptable in America. Smunkee, your daughter is AWESOME! She could be my sister! :p

The primary reason I like it is because it results in superior reading speed and comprehension.

The kids can often breeze through complicated text and absorb the full meaning without having any idea how to pronounce some of the words they just read.

yeah. i agree with that. there are great benefits to whole language especially when used by an ethusiastic teacher who really knows how the system works.

these days when we all have spellcheckers there should be no excuse for bad spelling and yet it doesnt even seem to occur to kids who know that they cant spell that they SHOULD run their work through the spellchecker to make their writing easier for others to read.

she reads books that I read in junior high and high school and a few that didn't get read until college. I have to read all those books too so that we can discuss and disect them, that's why often I am reading 6+ books at a time, my normal 4 and then 2 to try to stay ahead of her so that I can plan assignments better.

Her reading list last year spanned from Judy Blume, to Orson Wells, to Douglas Adams, to James Madison (although those were essays ;))

can she actually understand the books?

she reads books that I read in junior high and high school and a few that didn't get read until college. I have to read all those books too so that we can discuss and disect them, that's why often I am reading 6+ books at a time, my normal 4 and then 2 to try to stay ahead of her so that I can plan assignments better.

Her reading list last year spanned from Judy Blume, to Orson Wells, to Douglas Adams, to James Madison (although those were essays ;))

I see... Now I'm jealous. I wish I could read books like that at 5. :(

No, reading is not "cool". I like reading but it's not "cool" (and I'm 14!) but it's just that stigma of being a nerd when oyu like to read, and that stigma is entirely the fault of the singers in Hollywood who oftentimes never finished high school. The crap in the education system is the fault of kids buying into American pop culture WAYYY too much, idiot parents thinking school will do everything for their kids, and idiot government officials that are just trying to look like they're actually doing something.
Shut up, freshman. :D Ah, being a senior ROCKS!

jk.

But I must correct you here: Reading Sci-Fi books and trade paperbacks is not cool, and you will be laughed at, and hopefully beaten. However, reading good, high-quality modern literature will earn you a degree of respect. Some examples would be One Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich, The Gulag Archipelago, 1984, Fight Club, Trainspotting, FLCL, V for Vendetta (yeah, I know, those last two were comics, but they're pretty good literature too), you know, stuff like that. But reading Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command will earn you a pantsing.
Also, "the singers of Hollywood"? I mean, c'mon, you could have picked Nashville or Cleveland. Hollywood is for movies.
And how many singers do you know that haven't finished high school, anyways?

I see... Now I'm jealous. I wish I could read books like that at 5. :(

me too, man, me too. I am so jealous, I could read at 3, but like on a 1st grade level, not like she does, it freaks me out. I am sure that she will be able to read and comprehend books too hard for me soon.......I am not sure if I am looking forward to that or dreading it.

:p

At least my 3 year old is "normal"-ish. Although she has a freakish math ability, today we were sitting in a restraunt and she saw a poster that said "5 Tons" and I said "if 1 ton is 2000 pounds then how many pounds is 5 tons?" and she said (after 25 minutes and I forgot I had asked her) 10 with 3 more zeros?

I freaked out:eek: I was like asking everyone at the table "did you hear that? did you hear that?" and they were like yeah 5 X 2 = 10 no big deal, and I was "but she is 3 freakin years old!" they didn't seem to grasp it.

She gets the math from her father I assure you, they play all these stupid number games........I hate math :(

Shut up, freshman. :D Ah, being a senior ROCKS!

jk.

But I must correct you here: Reading Sci-Fi books and trade paperbacks is not cool, and you will be laughed at, and hopefully beaten. However, reading good, high-quality modern literature will earn you a degree of respect. Some examples would be One Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich, The Gulag Archipelago, 1984, Fight Club, Trainspotting, FLCL, V for Vendetta (yeah, I know, those last two were comics, but they're pretty good literature too), you know, stuff like that. But reading Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command will earn you a pantsing.
Also, "the singers of Hollywood"? I mean, c'mon, you could have picked Nashville or Cleveland. Hollywood is for movies.
And how many singers do you know that haven't finished high school, anyways?

I rarely read sci-fi, it's boring, and trade paperbacks... ergh. But nowadays Hollywood means fame, not just movies.

I rarely read sci-fi, it's boring, and trade paperbacks... ergh. But nowadays Hollywood means fame, not just movies.

Stop lying to me. I mean, about the Hollywood thing. I can believe you don't read crap.

So... what is it that you read that people stigmatize you over?

I believe that part of the problem, especially where reading is concerned, is the number of students who come into the school system speaking another language other than English.

Every school meeting at my son's school is conducted in English and translated in Spanish. It takes twice as long. Every paper sent home has English on one side and Spanish on the other. I know the teachers have to devote extra attention to theSpanish-speaking students. I understand that, but I often wonder how much attention is taken away from the students who already know English, but are struggling.

On a different note: My son is math-oriented, meaning he has no interest in reading whatsoever. I am the exact opposite of him and it was hard for me to accept that some people just don't like to read. I asked his teacher what I could do to get him more interested in reading. She told me, "Nothing." It was really frustrating to hear a teacher say that. It almost seems as if they have just given up on the students of today.

I believe that part of the problem, especially where reading is concerned, is the number of students who come into the school system speaking another language other than English.

Every school meeting at my son's school is conducted in English and translated in Spanish. It takes twice as long. Every paper sent home has English on one side and Spanish on the other. I know the teachers have to devote extra attention to theSpanish-speaking students. I understand that, but I often wonder how much attention is taken away from the students who already know English, but are struggling.
Yes, damn those spicks, with their lack of being white! :rolleyes:

Yes, damn those spicks, with their lack of being white! :rolleyes:

White is a language now?

White is a language now?

Nope.

American education has always been shit hasn't it?

my old science teacher (very old guy) said that when he first started teaching (back when people wrote with feather pens:p ) kids paid attention and worked hard but every year its just got worse and worse especially in attention and behaviour…come to think of it I should of asked him what he thinks caused this

I for one blame failing school grades (this is actually quite big not just America) on poor school meals and a lack of will to get the grades (you will notice in poorer nations children get good meals and actually have a will to get out of where they are)

So you think school meals are the reason for poor education in the US? Are you serious?

Stop lying to me. I mean, about the Hollywood thing. I can believe you don't read crap. :confused: I read a lot... just not idiotic tabloids.....

So... what is it that you read that people stigmatize you over? Anything. Readers=nerds. :(

So you think school meals are the reason for poor education in the US? Are you serious?

An army fights on its stomach. Apparently. I always thought they used boots, but, no, they just tie a stomach to their feet and march in those.

Yes, damn those spicks, with their lack of being white! :rolleyes:

Don't be so quick to throw a racist label at someone.

In communities where immigrants settle, we've had to make room for students with no English skills. Public schools are hardly organized well in the first place, and adding in a group that needs special considerations just puts more strain on the system. My old school hasn't been absorbing the Spanish-speaking students well at all, mostly because the bilingual teahcers are either teaching three different subjects already or found a better job at a school with smaller classes and better pay.

Anything. Readers=nerds. :(
independent thought = nerd

don't fool yourself, they want people to be drones, it's easier for them, educate yourself and be your own person. ;)

read a lot, read whatever you can, read just to piss them off.

and at the end of the day remember this "consider the source", believe me anyone who is talking down to you because you read isn't the type of person you need to listen to at all.

:confused: I read a lot... just not idiotic tabloids.....
:confused: Oookay...
Anything. Readers=nerds. :(
...Not where I live... Here, it's: people with bad social skills = nerds.
*shrug*

...Not where I live... Here, it's: people with bad social skills = nerds.
*shrug*
nerds=smart
dorks=bad social skills
geeks=obsessed

I really need to put that in my sig. :p

Yes, damn those spicks, with their lack of being white! :rolleyes:

My last name is Figueroa. My dad was half Spanish. It is NOT a race issue. It is a language issue.

My last name is Figueroa. My dad was half Spanish. It is NOT a race issue. It is a language issue.
What country?
Even if your not being racist, you're still being elitist.
And, oh noes, there's Spanish on the back of the paper! And people are conversing in Spanish because the parents of these students never had an oppurtunity to get a decent education! WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO!?!?!? :rolleyes:


nerds=smart
dorks=bad social skills
geeks=obsessed
Yeeeah... not where I live.

Here it's:
nerds = bad social skills
geeks = bad social skills
dorks = bad social skills

A smart person is just a smart guy, someone who's obsessed... well, it depends on the obsession. Music, that's fine. Pot, that's fine. Yu-Gi-Oh? Well... :)

What country?
Even if your not being racist, you're still being elitist.
And, oh noes, there's Spanish on the back of the paper! And people are conversing in Spanish because the parents of these students never had an oppurtunity to get a decent education! WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO!?!?!? :rolleyes:

Elitisim has nothing to do with worrying about education. Public schools have enough problems as it is; placing an additional strain on resources by adding Spanish to every test, lecture, assembly, and paper hurts schools that can't absorb those costs without cuts elsewhere. When schools take losses, the value of a student's education goes down, no matter their language. Is it really so unreasonable for Grainne Ni Malley to worry about his/her son's education?

Is it really so unreasonable for Grainne Ni Malley to worry about her son's education?

Nope, it's a perfectly human reaction. Doesn't make it any better that she considers English-literate families more important than ones that cannot speak English, or can only use it conversationally.

but really 4 books? what are they teaching you?

You said it, they are only teaching them how to pass the standardized test. Nothing more and nothing less. A lot of the problem in the US public education system is the federal government. In the 1960’s, they started giving money to the states for education and telling the states what they must teach. Then they started passing "unfunded mandates." That means the schools must do this or lose federal funding but there is no increase in federal funding to finance what has been mandated.

One of the ways to "fix" the problem with public education is to get the federal government the hell out of it and give control back to the LOCAL school districts. Another way would be with competition that people could afford, but (God forbid) that would mean school vouchers.

How can you possibly have enough time to read close to 40 books in a school year? Never mind a 5 year old actually reading that many. :confused:

HOMEWORK

What country?
Even if your not being racist, you're still being elitist.
And, oh noes, there's Spanish on the back of the paper! And people are conversing in Spanish because the parents of these students never had an oppurtunity to get a decent education! WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO!?!?!? :rolleyes:

His ancestors were from Spain, not that I think it matters. All emotional issues aside- logically speaking if they have to take twice as long to accomodate student's who do not speak English, they are taking twice as long to teach.

she likes to read, if I tried to impose a book a month she would probably freak out. :p Her curriculum is heavy on reading, she learns all subjects from books besides math and science.

Smun, do you remember "reading is fundamental?"

Nope, it's a perfectly human reaction. Doesn't make it any better that she considers English-literate families more important than ones that cannot speak English, or can only use it conversationally.

It's not about importance, it's about the burden. If a school can't teach two languages effectively, everyone is getting screwed, both languages.

Smun, do you remember "reading is fundamental?"

yep. A person who can read can learn anything they want, they can be anything they want, they can achieve anything they want. Her curriculum is heavy in reading because it's important to me for her to be without limits when it comes to choosing her life.

I see... Now I'm jealous. I wish I could read books like that at 5. :(

Can you read books like that at your present age? If not, perhaps the education system has failed you. :(

Reading Sci-Fi books

Please tell this old fart (63 years young) what the hell is wrong with Sci-Fi? Man, there are a lot of good Sci-Fi books out there.

His ancestors were from Spain, not that I think it matters. All emotional issues aside- logically speaking if they have to take twice as long to accomodate student's who do not speak English, they are taking twice as long to teach.

So, you're Spanish, but you're not Spanish, you're white. I understand.

Uh... nope, not really. The majority of my school is Spanish (mostly Salvadorans), and, guess what? The kids speak and understand English fine, though, with an accent (oh noes). All the shit on the mail home and in those useless PTSA meetings is for the sake of the parents who are too lazy to go to school and learn Spanish, because they're wasting their time providing for their kids. The horrors.

Please tell this old fart (63 years young) what the hell is wrong with Sci-Fi? Man, there are a lot of good Sci-Fi books out there.

It makes you a nerd. :p


Nah, seriously, most sci-fi books are crap, with the same plot rehashed over and over... But I did like Asimov, and the original Dune books (Dune through Chapterhouse).

An army fights on its stomach. Apparently. I always thought they used boots, but, no, they just tie a stomach to their feet and march in those.

You've never been in the military. :eek:

It's not about importance, it's about the burden. If a school can't teach two languages effectively, everyone is getting screwed, both languages.

Thank you. You are stating it more eloquently than I am, I suppose. I do not feel that non-english speaking families are of any less importance than anybody else. I merely think that there has to be a more effective system that accomodates both to be educated as effectively as possible.

You've never been in the military. :eek:

Dude, I'm turning 17 in three weeks. C'mon, you can't hold that against me.

And I do intend to join when I turn 18...

And then there's the fact that I was totally joking. *shrug*

So, you're Spanish, but you're not Spanish, you're white. I understand.

Uh... nope, not really. The majority of my school is Spanish (mostly Salvadorans), and, guess what? The kids speak and understand English fine, though, with an accent (oh noes). All the shit on the mail home and in those useless PTSA meetings is for the sake of the parents who are too lazy to go to school and learn Spanish, because they're wasting their time providing for their kids. The horrors.

You are imposing ideas that are not mine. Sure I'm white, being Scotch Irish, German, Dutch, Iroquois and whatever other nationality managed to make it's way into my bloodline. My mom goes out with black people -that bitch. I'm so racist!!! Give me a break.
:rolleyes:

Don't be so quick to throw a racist label at someone.

In communities where immigrants settle, we've had to make room for students with no English skills. Public schools are hardly organized well in the first place, and adding in a group that needs special considerations just puts more strain on the system. My old school hasn't been absorbing the Spanish-speaking students well at all, mostly because the bilingual teahcers are either teaching three different subjects already or found a better job at a school with smaller classes and better pay.

One summer in the late 1950's Eric came to the US from Germany and didn't know one word of English. By the time school started in the fall, Eric had full command of all the cuss words and a working knowledge of English. He gained that from playing with American kids. He gaduated from High School with honors and never had one class in German or had one ESL class. Makes one wonder....

Uh... nope, not really. The majority of my school is Spanish (mostly Salvadorans), and, guess what? The kids speak and understand English fine, though, with an accent (oh noes). All the shit on the mail home and in those useless PTSA meetings is for the sake of the parents who are too lazy to go to school and learn Spanish, because they're wasting their time providing for their kids. The horrors.

Right. So, you've never been in a classroom with that group of children that immigrated with their families and can't speak a word of English, have you? You've never been in a public school that is already in the crapper funds-wise trying to accomodate students that can't understand the lectures, I take it?

Because those schools have to split whatever state money they have between material for English speakers and Spanish speakers. They have to find instructors that can speak two languages fluently and are willing to grade in two languages, lecture in two languages, and do it for under $30k a year. The students that come from that school get a bare-bones education, the kind that leads to jobs at fast-food places and Walmarts, because their school couldn't handle the burden.

One summer in the late 1950's Eric came to the US from Germany and didn't know one word of English. By the time school started in the fall, Eric had full command of all the cuss words and a working knowledge of English. He gained that from playing with American kids. He gaduated from High School with honors and never had one class in German or had one ESL class. Makes one wonder....Considering that German and English are Germanic languages and Spanish is not, my wonder has ceased rather quickly... :p

And, oh noes, there's Spanish on the back of the paper!

Last I heard this was the USA, not the United States of Spanish. When I lived in Spain the Spanish expected us to speak Spanish. They even helped us learn the language. There were no bi-lngual labels, no WE SPEAK ENGLISH signs in stores, no PRESS 1 FOR SPANISH PRESS 2 FOR ENGLISH when calling a business. If you wanted something your either learned the language, found someone who was bi-lingual, or carried a Spanish-English dictionary. :eek:

It's not all about money, teachers, or standardized tests.

If parents aren't involved in the process of education, and the parents believe that the school is responsible for everything, the kids will turn out below average, no matter how much money you spend on them.

I stand amazed that Deep Kimchi and I agree wholeheartedly on something -- but here we are.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "He's YOUR problem from 9-3", or, "I can't make him do his homework -- he goes in his room and goes online/plays PS2/watches TV".

The answer that would get me fired is, "Then cancel your internet service or put it in your room, throw out his TV, and take away his games."

Some parents don't want to do their job and, well, parent. Some parents (and I feel for them) CAN'T do their jobs because they are working two jobs and hardly ever SEE their kid. But the kids who succeed most are the ones whose parents are open to being contacted and whose parents contact me when they have a question or issue they want to clarify.

His ancestors were from Spain, not that I think it matters. All emotional issues aside- logically speaking if they have to take twice as long to accomodate student's who do not speak English, they are taking twice as long to teach.

No, they are not taking twice as long to teach, they are teaching half as much. :mad:

Right. So, you've never been in a classroom with that group of children that immigrated with their families and can't speak a word of English, have you?
Yes, I have.

You've never been in a public school that is already in the crapper funds-wise trying to accomodate students that can't understand the lectures, I take it?
Yes, I have. I don't anymore. *shrug*

Because those schools have to split whatever state money they have between material for English speakers and Spanish speakers. They have to find instructors that can speak two languages fluently and are willing to grade in two languages, lecture in two languages, and do it for under $30k a year. The students that come from that school get a bare-bones education, the kind that leads to jobs at fast-food places and Walmarts, because their school couldn't handle the burden.
You win.

You are imposing ideas that are not mine. Sure I'm white, being Scotch Irish, German, Dutch, Iroquois and whatever other nationality managed to make it's way into my bloodline. My mom goes out with black people -that bitch. I'm so racist!!! Give me a break.
Huh? :confused:

yep. A person who can read can learn anything they want, they can be anything they want, they can achieve anything they want. Her curriculum is heavy in reading because it's important to me for her to be without limits when it comes to choosing her life.

Great. Maybe she will be the first female President or the next Condi. Congradulations and keep up the good work with her education. :fluffle:

So, you're Spanish, but you're not Spanish, you're white. I understand.

Uh... nope, not really. The majority of my school is Spanish (mostly Salvadorans), and, guess what? The kids speak and understand English fine, though, with an accent (oh noes). All the shit on the mail home and in those useless PTSA meetings is for the sake of the parents who are too lazy to go to school and learn Spanish, because they're wasting their time providing for their kids. The horrors.

UHH! :confused: The parents are Salvadorans and "are too lazy to go to shcool and learn Spanish? :confused:

Last I heard this was the USA, not the United States of Spanish. When I lived in Spain the Spanish expected us to speak Spanish. They even helped us learn the language.
Uh, yeah, so do we. ESOL?
There were no bi-lngual labels, no WE SPEAK ENGLISH signs in stores, no PRESS 1 FOR SPANISH PRESS 2 FOR ENGLISH
lol, I swear that said "WE SPEAK SPANISH signs" a second ago. That was freakin' hilarious.
when calling a business. If you wanted something your either learned the language, found someone who was bi-lingual, or carried a Spanish-English dictionary. :eek:
Um... okay. But a lot of cashiers speak Spanish nowadays anyway. And I'm pretty sure Spain doesn't have the problem of a large influx of English-speaking immigrants. :eek:

UHH! :confused: The parents are Salvadorans and "are too lazy to go to shcool and learn Spanish? :confused:

lol! dammit, I'm dumb. I meant engrish.

Last I heard this was the USA, not the United States of Spanish. When I lived in Spain the Spanish expected us to speak Spanish. They even helped us learn the language. There were no bi-lngual labels, no WE SPEAK ENGLISH signs in stores, no PRESS 1 FOR SPANISH PRESS 2 FOR ENGLISH when calling a business. If you wanted something your either learned the language, found someone who was bi-lingual, or carried a Spanish-English dictionary. :eek:I'm pretty sure they had something of the sort in Catalonia though.

yep. A person who can read can learn anything they want, they can be anything they want, they can achieve anything they want.
False.

Great. Maybe she will be the first female President or the next Condi. Congradulations and keep up the good work with her education. :fluffle:

I'd totally vote for her. :P

I'd vote for her now, only she's too young to run and I'm too young to vote. :(

Dude, I'm turning 17 in three weeks. C'mon, you can't hold that against me.

And I do intend to join when I turn 18...

And then there's the fact that I was totally joking. *shrug*


Don't ever believe that an Army fights “on its stomach.” If you do you will be very surprised when you are in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines and are hungry because you missed "chow" and there is no place around to eat. Candy and coke from a vending machine (if you have the money to buy it) is not suitable when you have not eaten in 12 to 16 hours.

And the reason kids are not learning today is not because of "inadequate" meals in school. Hell, if some kids didn't get meals in school they wouldn't eat. :mad: :mad:

Don't ever believe that an Army fights “on its stomach.” If you do you will be very surprised when you are in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines and are hungry because you missed "chow" and there is no place around to eat. Candy and coke from a vending machine (if you have the money to buy it) is not suitable when you have not eaten in 12 to 16 hours.

And the reason kids are not learning today is not because of "inadequate" meals in school. Hell, if some kids didn't get meals in school they wouldn't eat. :mad: :mad:

Hmm. I always though that phrase meant that soldiers need food and supplies... not that you get to eat a lot in the field. *shrug*

And I agree with you. Hell, I only get 1 meal a day... then again, my GPA is in the shitter, but that's beside the point.

So, you're Spanish, but you're not Spanish, you're white. I understand.

Well, I lived in Spain for 3 yrears. Guess what? Most of the Spanish people living in Spain are white. :eek:

Well, I lived in Spain for 3 yrears. Guess what? Most of the Spanish people living in Spain are white. :eek:

:confused: Oookay... glad you agree with me.

And I'm pretty sure Spain doesn't have the problem of a large influx of English-speaking immigrants. :eek:

They did around the military base. :rolleyes:

lol! dammit, I'm dumb. I meant engrish.

:p

To get this forum back on topic, a large reason that America is being dumbed down is because of the massive stigma attached to education and being smart. I'm going to use myself as a n example. I play basketball and run cross country. I also get straight A's. Because of this I am a geek/nerd. It means i am automatically regarded by many people as a loser, simply because i am smart.

Another reason is that we are lazy. My school offers math classes for people (I'm a high school sophmore) that are below the level of what was done in middle school. Some students I know actually did badly (on the placement test) on purpose in order to get into an easier math class. It's ridiculous. We pander to people because we don't want to damage their self-esteem.

To get this forum back on topic, a large reason that America is being dumbed down is because of the massive stigma attached to education and being smart. I'm going to use myself as a n example. I play basketball and run cross country. I also get straight A's. Because of this I am a geek/nerd. It means i am automatically regarded by many people as a loser, simply because i am smart.

Another reason is that we are lazy. My school offers math classes for people (I'm a high school sophmore) that are below the level of what was done in middle school. Some students I know actually did badly (on the placement test) on purpose in order to get into an easier math class. It's ridiculous. We pander to people because we don't want to damage their self-esteem.

I agree. The primary problem with America's education system is the notion that intelligence is "uncool" or outdated; and then also the willingness of the system to bend to the will of this line of thinking. The system makes it "okay" to not do the assigned work, to not know the material, to not study for the tests.

You are talking about a government that still uses dial up to connect to the Internet. Priorities. Our schooling has been declining for 20 years. 26th, I thought it was more like 50th.

I stand amazed that Deep Kimchi and I agree wholeheartedly on something -- but here we are.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "He's YOUR problem from 9-3", or, "I can't make him do his homework -- he goes in his room and goes online/plays PS2/watches TV".

The answer that would get me fired is, "Then cancel your internet service or put it in your room, throw out his TV, and take away his games."

Some parents don't want to do their job and, well, parent. Some parents (and I feel for them) CAN'T do their jobs because they are working two jobs and hardly ever SEE their kid. But the kids who succeed most are the ones whose parents are open to being contacted and whose parents contact me when they have a question or issue they want to clarify.

Yes, I feel for the parents who actually have to work all the time just to make ends meet.

But I've met too many parents, who have plenty of time to play golf and party, who stand around griping about how crappy the school is, and how it isn't doing their child any good.

Want to know why homeschooling works? Because parents are closely involved with the kids. What works in private school? You're paying so much money that you actually are concerned if it works, so you show more interest. What works in public school? You're a parent who actually works with your own children.

If the kids have a stable environment at home, know they can expect a regularly scheduled study time with Mom and/or Dad that includes just a bit more than the assigned homework (that they can enjoy and not view as drudgery), and Mom and Dad know the teachers, what's going on in class, and where their kid is at in class, even a supposedly "below average" kid is going to do well.

It's a competitive world out there. The kids who get bad grades and bad test scores are screwed as they go out the door into the world. And making someone else President, or spending twice as much money on education isn't going to change any of that - no stupid phrase "No Child Left Behind" is going to help - if the child gets left behind, it's because the parents weren't being parents.

Sometimes I look at some parents and think, "you have every right as an adult to fuck up your own life - stop fucking up your childrens' lives".

blame G.W. Bush. He's the idiot who made that law.

The very notion of "no child left behind" is flawed. Society operated with great efficacy prior to the reforms, and would have continued to do so subsequent to them.

Having experianced, and been thoroughly frustrated by, an education system wherein emphasis is placed upon a universally achieved low standard as opposed to the elevation of the able, I find that any education system predicated upon this notion tends to fail all. There is no necessity to ensure that a child can perform certain tasks at a certain age, provided they achieve an operative level of basic literacy and numeracy at the age at which they leave school. A McDonalds chip fryer does not require the capacity to analyse Shakespeare or perform quadratics, hence why oblige them to achieve a standard at doing so?