NationStates Jolt Archive

LInk to story (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17646670&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=miracle-is-sunk--name_page.html)

A PRIEST has died after trying to demonstrate how Jesus walked on water.

Evangelist preacher Franck Kabele, 35, told his congregation he could repeat the biblical miracle.

But he drowned after walking out to sea from a beach in the capital Libreville in Gabon, west Africa.

One eyewitness said: "He told churchgoers he'd had a revelation that if he had enough faith, he could walk on water like Jesus.

"He took his congregation to the beach saying he would walk across the Komo estuary, which takes 20 minutes by boat.

"He walked into the water, which soon passed over his head and he never came back."

What drives people to put their faith to such a test? This guy did something clearly dangerous...but he was not able to walk on water...yet he continued until he drowned.

Is it that failure meant rejection and he could not face his congregation? Well he was going to die so failed anyway!

You look at other extremes such as those who are able to place thier hands in pots of boiling oil and come out ok...or the Marathon Monks (http://www.runpunxsyrun.org/marathonmonks.html)...where failure means death by suicide....

What drives us to do such things?

Fool. And the Darwin Award goes too..

Religion, helping evolution more with every stupid stunt.

Though I suppose since priests don't marry he didn't really remove himself from the gene pool, but it's an overall boost to our genetic quality to remove the trash anyway.

Blind stupidity or a human tragedy? Yes.

One eyewitness said: "He told churchgoers he'd had a revelation that if he had enough faith, he could walk on water like Jesus.

Since the man drowned, I guess he didn't have enough faith.

What drives us to do such things?

That's simple. It's religion.

The priest is, well was, and idiot. He couldn't have even tried something that would result in a quick death, like saying God would stop the bullet before it reached his head. This way he died slowly, and he had time to realise that he had not walked on water.

Those monks are pretty crazy too.

Shoulda had more faith, clearly.

At least his religious beliefs only killed him, and not a planeload of other people.

At least his religious beliefs only killed him, and not a planeload of other people.
Or a building full of kids.

Or a building full of kids.

Now his parishoners can breathe a sigh of relief, and replace him. Saved them the trouble of firing him.

Now his parishoners can breathe a sigh of relief, and replace him. Saved them the trouble of firing him.

Can a parish fire their priest, or are the stuck with him until the bishop moves him somewhere else?

At least the nest guy doesn't have big shoes to fill, as long as he's not suicidally faithful the people should be happy.

It's a clear case of religion vs. physics. I'm not surprised by the outcome.

And I thought I was joking when I said that some religious people are so anti-science that they don't believe in gravity.

Can a parish fire their priest, or are the stuck with him until the bishop moves him somewhere else?

At least the nest guy doesn't have big shoes to fill, as long as he's not suicidally faithful the people should be happy.

I think it depends on the church. This is quicker than firing, though.

At least they can be sure he wasn't a witch (or a duck)

Or a building full of kids.

or a Russian theater

I'm sorry. Yes, this is very sad and bewildering and... but it's also funny as hell! :D :D

So what happened here? Hubris, people, hubris. The same mortal moral failing that killed so many of the evil kings and tragic heroes of pagan Greece, who understood how these things work apparently better than this preacher did. There is a beautiful, almost literary, perfection to this story. Are we sure this really happened?

In mysticism, there are two conditions under which walking on water is possible. (1) You are so advanced in spiritual practice that you have transcended your own physical body to the point of being almost a ghost and, thus able to violate the laws of physics -- water and land become one to you; or (2) you are a god.

In Christianity, walking on water falls under item (2). It was the sign of god within Jesus, of his godhood, that he was an incarnation of the god. For this preacher to have attempted to do it was to imply that he had somehow assumed the same powers of god that were bestowed on or inherent in Jesus. Hubris = assuming the power of a god. The gods don't like it when you do that. And hubris always brings its own punishment, primarily in the form of the ultimate reality check.

He said, "I can walk on water." His god said, "I decide who walks on water around here, pal."

That's one way to look at it.

or a Russian theater

Or people at a gay nightclub.

Let's see how long we can keep this unspoken 'Christian terrorists did this... well muslim terrorists did this... well christian terrorists did this' thing going. It never gets old.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060725/sp_nm/athletics_run_dc

these guys run 3,100 miles around a city block...

the push themselves to an extreme...as a test of faith

The priest placed his faith in his God...these guys in themselves....the Marathon Monks a combination of the two...(ok I admit that the God link is tenuous but it is there).

What drives us as humans to do these things?

The definition of a delusion is a belief which is not grounded on observable reality and is not susceptible to change by logical argument. This would seem to indicate that anyreligious belief is a delusion, albeit a socially acceptable one. The priest was just taking it to extremes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060725/sp_nm/athletics_run_dc

these guys run 3,100 miles around a city block...

the push themselves to an extreme...as a test of faith

The priest placed his faith in his God...these guys in themselves....the Marathon Monks a combination of the two...(ok I admit that the God link is tenuous but it is there).

What drives us as humans to do these things?

If you had any faith in anything yourself, you would already know the answer to that question.

I'm sorry. Yes, this is very sad and bewildering and... but it's also funny as hell! :D :D

So what happened here? Hubris, people, hubris. The same mortal moral failing that killed so many of the evil kings and tragic heroes of pagan Greece, who understood how these things work apparently better than this preacher did. There is a beautiful, almost literary, perfection to this story. Are we sure this really happened?

In mysticism, there are two conditions under which walking on water is possible. (1) You are so advanced in spiritual practice that you have transcended your own physical body to the point of being almost a ghost and, thus able to violate the laws of physics -- water and land become one to you; or (2) you are a god.

In Christianity, walking on water falls under item (2). It was the sign of god within Jesus, of his godhood, that he was an incarnation of the god. For this preacher to have attempted to do it was to imply that he had somehow assumed the same powers of god that were bestowed on or inherent in Jesus. Hubris = assuming the power of a god. The gods don't like it when you do that. And hubris always brings its own punishment, primarily in the form of the ultimate reality check.

He said, "I can walk on water." His god said, "I decide who walks on water around here, pal."

That's one way to look at it.


ooohhhhh!!!! hey thats a good post!

But what I wonder made him think he could 'mimic' godhead?

If you had any faith in anything yourself, you would already know the answer to that question.

The only faith I have is that humans having an amazing propensity at fucking things up.

What drives to that...I do not know...hence the question.

ooohhhhh!!!! hey thats a good post!

But what I wonder made him think he could 'mimic' godhead?

Hubris is a crime of the ego. It's the conceit that makes a person look at something god does and say, "Feh, I know that trick," or that makes a person look at a blessed person and say, "I should be at least as blessed as him because I'm at least that wonderful or more."

My personal cynicism makes me see ego at the root of many of the most stupid and/or vicious things that people do.

Hubris is a crime of the ego. It's the conceit that makes a person look at something god does and say, "Feh, I know that trick," or that makes a person look at a blessed person and say, "I should be at least as blessed as him because I'm at least that wonderful or more."

My personal cynicism makes me see ego at the root of many of the most stupid and/or vicious things that people do.

mmmm not too sure....that estatic state that some say brings them very close to godhead...not a case of ego....more of function perhaps?

You could perhaps even trace it down to those who attend 'faith healers'....for some it does seem to work...for others it does not...

Lmao, thats the funniest thing ever!

In mysticism, there are two conditions under which walking on water is possible. (1) You are so advanced in spiritual practice that you have transcended your own physical body to the point of being almost a ghost and, thus able to violate the laws of physics -- water and land become one to you; or (2) you are a god.

In Christianity, walking on water falls under item (2). It was the sign of god within Jesus, of his godhood, that he was an incarnation of the god. For this preacher to have attempted to do it was to imply that he had somehow assumed the same powers of god that were bestowed on or inherent in Jesus. Hubris = assuming the power of a god. The gods don't like it when you do that. And hubris always brings its own punishment, primarily in the form of the ultimate reality check.

Don't forget that Peter, in the story, walked on water as well, until his fear broke his faith and he began to sink. Christ gave him the ability to do so.

This priest most likely though that, if he had enough faith, Christ would grant him that ability as well - maybe even that he had been commanded to do so. So, you might be right that it was hubris, but I don't think it was the "I am as good as God" type. I think it was more the, "I'm going to test God" type.


What drives us as humans to do these things?

Lack of faith. Their faith is weak, so they have to come up with some elaborate test to prove to themselves and others that it is, in fact, strong.

Lack of faith. Their faith is weak, so they have to come up with some elaborate test to prove to themselves and others that it is, in fact, strong.

So how do you explain the Marathon Monks...?

This reminds me of something I read on a church bulletin. It said, "The sermon this morning: Jesus walks on the water. The sermon for this afternoon: Searching for Jesus."

So how do you explain the Marathon Monks...?

Same way. The whole thing is an attempt to prove to others that they have strong faith. The need to do so already reveals their lack of faith.

So how do you explain the Marathon Monks...?

If you want, the same explanation can apply. A test of their faith.

Same way. The whole thing is an attempt to prove to others that they have strong faith. The need to do so already reveals their lack of faith.


Actually, my other post aside, I'm not sure that's quite right. If anything, I'd say they're trying to prove their faith to themselves, but I'm not sure that's right either.

And I thought I was joking when I said that some religious people are so anti-science that they don't believe in gravity.

At least, the guy seemed to forget that it was JESUS, SON OF GOD (in his belief) who walked on water, and he maybe shouldn't have had such high expectations for himself.

At least, the guy seemed to forget that it was JESUS, SON OF GOD (in his belief) who walked on water, and he maybe shouldn't have had such high expectations for himself.

And Peter.

Same way. The whole thing is an attempt to prove to others that they have strong faith. The need to do so already reveals their lack of faith.

No...they do it to achieve a higher state...not because of a lack of faith....well thats how I read it....

Maybe some atheists from NS General asked him to "prove that your faith in God works".

In that case, it would have been more of an outsider not having faith, and the minister being stupid.

See, now this is why I theorise within a few generations our world will be largely atheist, (barring a handmaid's tale style religious coup) the religious are having so much fun killing themselves and each other that there realy wont be much else left.

mmmm not too sure....that estatic state that some say brings them very close to godhead...not a case of ego....more of function perhaps?

You could perhaps even trace it down to those who attend 'faith healers'....for some it does seem to work...for others it does not...

There's a subtle difference at work here. This why not all mystics suffer the fate of this preacher. It's all about motive, all about what the individual was thinking and feeling at the time.

Let's say you go to a faith healer and the healing works for you. What really worked? Studies have shown that faith healing often does have a beneficial effect, but only a temporary one. Other studies have shown that the power of our own minds to heal our own bodies is significant; it can even boost or negate the effect of medications. So, does the faith healer put power or energy into the patient? Or does the faith healer's ecstatic performance evoke the healing abilties that are already within the patient? You can't really compare what the faith healer does and why he does it to what the patient experiences with the faith healer.

So let's look at the faith healer. What does he think is happening within himself? It doesn't really matter where he thinks his supposed power is coming from -- whether a supernatural being or from himself. The point here is not to argue that or even whether such power actually exists or not. The point is the attitude the faither healer takes towards it. There are those who see themselves as instruments of the supposed power. They are merely channeling something through themselves. They don't try to control it and don't necessarily even claim ownership over it.

Then there are those who claim it as their power, exclusively, and that is hubris. They think they are somehow entitled to it, as if their god owes it to them, or they think they have cracked some mystical code that gives them control over it, like sorcerers. They act as if the god is responding on command to their prayers/spells, as if the god is obeying them. Such people always follow a pattern -- the promise to heal/help others is always accompanied by the direct or implied threat of not healing/helping them. Eventually, they will attempt other miracles and will always claim success, provided they don't kill themselves like this preacher did. In the end, their claimed power to bless turns into a claimed power to curse. "The power of Christ compels you" is soon turned against any critic or even the devout churchgoer who can't meet his tithe requrement for the month.

I think the most extreme example of where hubris takes people is Jim Jones who killed his cult followers with a mass suicide by poisoned Kool-aid in South America in the 1970s. He started out as a fundamentalist preacher, then a faith healer, then a prophet/visionary who was going to reshape the church and all of society, then he started claiming that he was a new god more powerful than the sky god who did not respond to his prayers, and then became a dictatorial king who abused his followers, committed murder (of a US Senator) and died an ignoble and pathetic death. He claimed to be a god; he died a ranting lunatic. He claimed the throne of heaven; all he got was pile of corpses rotting in a jungle.

A test of Faith....Blind stupidity or a human tragedy?
More like Darwin Award Winner.

I Dunno... By the time the water is up to my chest... I would stop.

Don't forget that Peter, in the story, walked on water as well, until his fear broke his faith and he began to sink. Christ gave him the ability to do so.

This priest most likely though that, if he had enough faith, Christ would grant him that ability as well - maybe even that he had been commanded to do so. So, you might be right that it was hubris, but I don't think it was the "I am as good as God" type. I think it was more the, "I'm going to test God" type.

To my mind, it's the pretty much same thing. It is hubris to claim to be as good a god. It is also hubris to claim that one has either the right or power to test god, because that would assume that you are equal to the god and can comprehend the god's mind. Ask yourself, wouldn't it seem mighty presumptuous of this preacher if he assumed that, for whatever reason, god would give him the power he wanted, i.e. to walk on water? And what did he want it for? To impress the members of his church? With what? His own closeness to god, his own state of grace? Was the message going to be, "If you want to get close to god, you should try to be like me?" Seems like an ego trip to me.

EDIT: I'm not familiar with the Peter story, but did he ask for the ability, or did Jesus grant it to him unsolicited? There's a difference there, too, but in either case, the fact that he lost it shows that it was never his to begin with. It was not his own connection to god that allowed him to do that; it was Jesus's. So maybe the message was that we should not mistake vicarious experiences for the real thing.

More like Darwin Award Winner.

I Dunno... By the time the water is up to my chest... I would stop.

The priest was very unlikely to have children anyway, since he was chatolic priest...

Originally Posted by Rubiconic Crossings
So how do you explain the Marathon Monks...?
Same way. The whole thing is an attempt to prove to others that they have strong faith. The need to do so already reveals their lack of faith.

I disagree. The way I understand the Marathon Monks is that they are not trying to prove anything nor are they testing their own faith. They are seeking a very specific set of personal experiences and are willing to go to extreme physical efforts to gain them. The Marathon Monks belong to an ascetic Zen sect and entirely focused on achieving detachment from the phenomenological world. In this case, they do so by attacking their sense of attachment to their own bodies. The repeated marathon mountain hikes and extreme fasting are meant to strain the body over and over until, basically, the monk stops caring about it, stops worrying about pain or hunger or discomfort, and stops fearing death. Apparently, they believe that overcoming the fear of death is key to overcoming the attachment to the world that binds the spirit in suffering. So they take themselves right up to the gate, to the point of experiencing their own death at their own hands as much as they can.

The sect they belong to -- I'm not sure, but I think it's a Pure Land Zen sect (based in Tantric mysticism) -- believes, like all Buddhist sects, that all of us are on this same quest but that we take the long road of many lifetimes to complete it. However, unlike many other sects, they also believe there are shortcuts to spiritual liberation but they are this dangerous and difficult and demand this much dedication. That's why so few people take the shortcuts. Apparently, in over 140 years, there have been fewer than 50 Marathon Monks.

As for their vow to complete the marathons on pain of death -- I suspect that's a Japanese thing. I once saw a chef on Iron Chef make the same vow to win that competition. He lost, but he's still alive. I don't think any of the Marathon Monks has ever failed to complete the marathons, nor died in the attempt. I saw a documentary about them that said they must undergo extensive medical and psychological testing before being given permission to attempt the marathons, to make sure they have the strength to complete them, so apparently, the sect leadership are not interested in seeing anyone fulfill that death vow, either.

EDIT: Nowadays, it seems they are also under near-constant medical observation during the marathons. The documentary I saw didn't question that, but it implied to me that, if the monk was in serious trouble, the doctors would stop him to save his life.

And Jesus said: "I have a much simpler way of walking on water: I SWIM, you moron!"

EDIT: I'm not familiar with the Peter story, but did he ask for the ability, or did Jesus grant it to him unsolicited? There's a difference there, too, but in either case, the fact that he lost it shows that it was never his to begin with. It was not his own connection to god that allowed him to do that; it was Jesus's. So maybe the message was that we should not mistake vicarious experiences for the real thing.


As I recall, Jesus told Peter to try it but Peter panicked and sank and Jesus had to haul him out. If the guy who started the Catholic Church lacked the faith to walk on the water, I think I'd have second thoughts myself...

Religion, helping evolution more with every stupid stunt.

Though I suppose since priests don't marry he didn't really remove himself from the gene pool, but it's an overall boost to our genetic quality to remove the trash anyway.
He is trash because he is a Christian? Well...so much for tolerance...

Anyway, no matter how much faith he had he wouldn't have been able to pull this off. All Christians know full well that only Jesus could perform such feats.

As I recall, Jesus told Peter to try it but Peter panicked and sank and Jesus had to haul him out. If the guy who started the Catholic Church lacked the faith to walk on the water, I think I'd have second thoughts myself...

Oh, that Jesus -- such a kidder, always setting up his friends. :D

So I guess this priest of ours really was a vanity case, eh? More blessed than that faker Peter. Well, maybe Peter understood something this priest didn't, i.e. he ain't god.

No...they do it to achieve a higher state...not because of a lack of faith....well thats how I read it....

I couldn't get to the article, so I was going on what was said about it. Didn't you say that failing supposedly indicates a lack of faith?


To my mind, it's the pretty much same thing. It is hubris to claim to be as good a god. It is also hubris to claim that one has either the right or power to test god, because that would assume that you are equal to the god and can comprehend the god's mind. Ask yourself, wouldn't it seem mighty presumptuous of this preacher if he assumed that, for whatever reason, god would give him the power he wanted, i.e. to walk on water? And what did he want it for? To impress the members of his church? With what? His own closeness to god, his own state of grace? Was the message going to be, "If you want to get close to god, you should try to be like me?" Seems like an ego trip to me.

Oh, I don't disagree that it seems like a problem with ego. And yes, I do think this was meant to impress the followers and show them that he was the spiritual leader they should follow.

EDIT: I'm not familiar with the Peter story, but did he ask for the ability, or did Jesus grant it to him unsolicited? There's a difference there, too, but in either case, the fact that he lost it shows that it was never his to begin with. It was not his own connection to god that allowed him to do that; it was Jesus's. So maybe the message was that we should not mistake vicarious experiences for the real thing.

22 Immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds. 23And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24but by this time the boat, battered by the waves, was far from the land, for the wind was against them. 25And early in the morning he came walking towards them on the lake. 26But when the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified, saying, ‘It is a ghost!’ And they cried out in fear. 27But immediately Jesus spoke to them and said, ‘Take heart, it is I; do not be afraid.’

28 Peter answered him, ‘Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.’ 29He said, ‘Come.’ So Peter got out of the boat, started walking on the water, and came towards Jesus. 30But when he noticed the strong wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, ‘Lord, save me!’ 31Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, ‘You of little faith, why did you doubt?’ 32When they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33And those in the boat worshipped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’

If we look at this from a metaphorical point of view, Peter does, in a way, test God by asking for Christ's command to come (and, of course, the power to do so). However, he is shown how little power he personally has when a lack of faith causes him to begin to sink.

He is trash because he is a Christian? Well...so much for tolerance...

Anyway, no matter how much faith he had he wouldn't have been able to pull this off. All Christians know full well that only Jesus could perform such feats.
But if you believe really hard you can do it. this guy almost pulled it of, I think he guessed wrong on the tides or something. I want to send a message to all Christians, you can do it. Go walk on water, if it goes over your head it means its working keep going.

<snip>
If we look at this from a metaphorical point of view, Peter does, in a way, test God by asking for Christ's command to come (and, of course, the power to do so). However, he is shown how little power he personally has when a lack of faith causes him to begin to sink.

So, in a way, this modern priest merely reinacted the Peter story and proved its point, only he didn't have anyone standing by to pull him out of the drink.

<snip>
Oh, I don't disagree that it seems like a problem with ego. And yes, I do think this was meant to impress the followers and show them that he was the spiritual leader they should follow.
<snip>
Well, I guess he was wrong about that.

A few years ago -- I'm sorry I have such a bad memory for details, I can never google references -- there was a story briefly in the news about a leader of some sect in Japan -- either Buddhist or Shinto, I don't remember which -- who declared that the world would end on a certain date. His followers did the usual world-ending thing, quit their jobs and built a big bunker and sold all their property and gave it to their leader to finance their survival in the aftermath. The date came and went without incident, of course, and this leader did something no other apocalyptic leader has ever done, to my knowledge. He announced in the media that he was wrong, that he had completely misunderstood the signs, that this proved he did not know what he was talking about and that no one should follow him. He then returned all his followers' money (no, he hadn't spent it on liquor and BMWs), disbanded his sect, and retired from public life and hasn't been heard from since.

actually, i don't think he was a priest. at least, not a Catholic one. he's described as an "Evangelist preacher" which is not the same as a priest. a priest is ordained by the Church....anywho, when Jesus is in the desert, the devil tries to tempt him and puts him through several tests. at one point, he takes Jesus to a high cliff and tells him to jump off, because scripture tells how God will send angels to carry anyone who falls. (i'm paraphrasing, i don't have a Bible w/ me). Jesus answers that it is also written that one should not put his God to the test.

I disagree. The way I understand the Marathon Monks is that they are not trying to prove anything nor are they testing their own faith. They are seeking a very specific set of personal experiences and are willing to go to extreme physical efforts to gain them. The Marathon Monks belong to an ascetic Zen sect and entirely focused on achieving detachment from the phenomenological world. In this case, they do so by attacking their sense of attachment to their own bodies. The repeated marathon mountain hikes and extreme fasting are meant to strain the body over and over until, basically, the monk stops caring about it, stops worrying about pain or hunger or discomfort, and stops fearing death. Apparently, they believe that overcoming the fear of death is key to overcoming the attachment to the world that binds the spirit in suffering. So they take themselves right up to the gate, to the point of experiencing their own death at their own hands as much as they can.

The sect they belong to -- I'm not sure, but I think it's a Pure Land Zen sect (based in Tantric mysticism) -- believes, like all Buddhist sects, that all of us are on this same quest but that we take the long road of many lifetimes to complete it. However, unlike many other sects, they also believe there are shortcuts to spiritual liberation but they are this dangerous and difficult and demand this much dedication. That's why so few people take the shortcuts. Apparently, in over 140 years, there have been fewer than 50 Marathon Monks.

As for their vow to complete the marathons on pain of death -- I suspect that's a Japanese thing. I once saw a chef on Iron Chef make the same vow to win that competition. He lost, but he's still alive. I don't think any of the Marathon Monks has ever failed to complete the marathons, nor died in the attempt. I saw a documentary about them that said they must undergo extensive medical and psychological testing before being given permission to attempt the marathons, to make sure they have the strength to complete them, so apparently, the sect leadership are not interested in seeing anyone fulfill that death vow, either.

EDIT: Nowadays, it seems they are also under near-constant medical observation during the marathons. The documentary I saw didn't question that, but it implied to me that, if the monk was in serious trouble, the doctors would stop him to save his life.

I think you are getting with regards to the Marathon Monks (what a name!) but you are wrong on the death side...

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1199164.htm

SIMKIN; The road to enlightenment is strewn with jagged rocks, poisonous snakes and uneven ground. And yet it is traversed with hand-made straw sandals that offer little protection.

Fujinami goes through at least two, sometimes five pairs a day. His feet are left blistered, bruised and broken but he cannot stop. Under his robes Fujinami carried a rope and knife. If he fails to complete his mountain march, not matter what the reason, he must immediately hang or disembowel himself.

JOHN STEVENS: This is serious. There have been people who have died in practice. Along the roadside there you will see, “this monk died during training”.

Its the stuff after the running that must be a total mare....

Anyway....is this something we as a species will ever overcome? Is it something we want to overcome? Does it serve a purpose? (this includes the priest in the OP....)

I understand that trying to achieve a different state of mind is a constant theme in our spicies history...sometimes safely....many times very dangerous...

Why do we do this?

In the case of the priest .... he perhaps had faith in God to help him ... to convinve his flock (theologically of course hopelessly flawed)....for the Monks...to achieve a tantric state of subsumation....for the block runners....to achieve a closer state of nirvana....

I might not have the above down pat and I am sure its riddled with holes...but then I am not an expert...

I wonder if this is a normal part of being human....to take ...well risks I suspose....?

We got a choice here people...

we can all pray for salvation...


or



we find that damn Tree of Knowledge and eat that fruit again, it's obvious the effects of the previous bite is wearing off! :D

We got a choice here people...

we can all pray for salvation...


or



we find that damn Tree of Knowledge and eat that fruit again, it's obvious the effects of the previous bite is wearing off! :D

LOL well I guess you could say it comes to how you want to assess risks....!

*erk*

I wonder if this is a normal part of being human....to take ...well risks I suspose....?

Maybe.

My fiance wondered, as we were strapping ourselves into the highest and fastest roller coaster in this area of the country, both rather nervous, if we as human beings are the only creatures that intentionally do something that scares us - something dangerous - for fun.

A couple of days later, he sent me this video:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8811551493740102634

The primate may just be messing with baby tigers, but they could still do some damage if they got hold of him.

I couldn't get to the article, so I was going on what was said about it. Didn't you say that failing supposedly indicates a lack of faith?


Not me...but I am starting to revise that thought...not in the case of the priest in the OP but the others....its possible...but it is more faith in yourself than a supranatural being...although soome might pray to God to prevent physical breakdown...

hmmmm

can't view the vid btw...my wireless cnx is playing up...sorry!

He should have tried turning the water to wine. Less dangerous and a lot more rewarding should it work if you ask me. :p

Wait, wtf, he kept walking and never came back? Wtf? Can he not swim? Was he too stubborn to bother coming up for air? Was he made of lead?

Well, that's why the Bible says you should not test God.

Not because God would punish you.

Because in doing so, you'll be being a moron. Most likely, as was the case, a dead moron.

Further, God won't give you a miracle for stupid things. Such as, y'know, walking on water to show off to people.

And mind you, I'm not a Christian, nor Muslim nor Jew.

The main mistake of this idiot was, basically, assuming that God was his pokémon. "Go, Kadabra, bend this spoon for me with your mind so I can show off to my friends!", "Go, God, allow me to walk on water so I can show off!"

I just wonder why the preist didn't come back up for air. Maybe he like, blacked out from lack of oxygen and "thought" he was floating.

Personally, I'd take some sidewalk chalk, scrawl WATER on the ground, step all over it and make faces at the crowd :p

We got a choice here people...

we can all pray for salvation...


or



we find that damn Tree of Knowledge and eat that fruit again, it's obvious the effects of the previous bite is wearing off! :D

Actually, recent DNA evidence suggests that Adam and Eve never actually partook of the fruit. (http://www.deadtroll.com/index2.html?/text/DNA20011107.html~content)

I just wonder why the preist didn't come back up for air. Maybe he like, blacked out from lack of oxygen and "thought" he was floating.

Personally, I'd take some sidewalk chalk, scrawl WATER on the ground, step all over it and make faces at the crowd :p

How... European cinema! :p

I just wonder why the preist didn't come back up for air. Maybe he like, blacked out from lack of oxygen and "thought" he was floating.

Personally, I'd take some sidewalk chalk, scrawl WATER on the ground, step all over it and make faces at the crowd :p

why go thought all that trouble... just toss some water on the ground and walk on it. :D

either that or go to a frozen pond and walk on it.

LInk to story (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17646670&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=miracle-is-sunk--name_page.html)

A PRIEST has died after trying to demonstrate how Jesus walked on water.

Evangelist preacher Franck Kabele, 35, told his congregation he could repeat the biblical miracle.

But he drowned after walking out to sea from a beach in the capital Libreville in Gabon, west Africa.

One eyewitness said: "He told churchgoers he'd had a revelation that if he had enough faith, he could walk on water like Jesus.

"He took his congregation to the beach saying he would walk across the Komo estuary, which takes 20 minutes by boat.

"He walked into the water, which soon passed over his head and he never came back."

What drives people to put their faith to such a test? This guy did something clearly dangerous...but he was not able to walk on water...yet he continued until he drowned.

Is it that failure meant rejection and he could not face his congregation? Well he was going to die so failed anyway!

You look at other extremes such as those who are able to place thier hands in pots of boiling oil and come out ok...or the Marathon Monks (http://www.runpunxsyrun.org/marathonmonks.html)...where failure means death by suicide....

What drives us to do such things?
Wow... that is a hell of an arrogant preacher. If I recall correctly (and I do), even Simon Peter faltered when he tried walking on water. And yes, Jesus said that you could walk on water and move mountains if you had enough faith and actually believed it would happen. But for this guy to assume that he has the faith...

The Marathon Monk thing is interesting though. It's really quite incredible what lengths a human body can be pushed to. Then there are those Tarahumara (sp?) Indians in Mexico who can run for over a day without quitting.

And then fire walking... I actually know someone who has done that-- walked across hot coals and came out with nary a burn on him.

Perhaps from a certain perspective.

LInk to story (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17646670&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=miracle-is-sunk--name_page.html)

A PRIEST has died after trying to demonstrate how Jesus walked on water.

Evangelist preacher Franck Kabele, 35, told his congregation he could repeat the biblical miracle.

But he drowned after walking out to sea from a beach in the capital Libreville in Gabon, west Africa.

One eyewitness said: "He told churchgoers he'd had a revelation that if he had enough faith, he could walk on water like Jesus.

"He took his congregation to the beach saying he would walk across the Komo estuary, which takes 20 minutes by boat.

"He walked into the water, which soon passed over his head and he never came back."

What drives people to put their faith to such a test? This guy did something clearly dangerous...but he was not able to walk on water...yet he continued until he drowned.

Is it that failure meant rejection and he could not face his congregation? Well he was going to die so failed anyway!

You look at other extremes such as those who are able to place thier hands in pots of boiling oil and come out ok...or the Marathon Monks (http://www.runpunxsyrun.org/marathonmonks.html)...where failure means death by suicide....

What drives us to do such things?

And somewhere up there, Jesus and St. Peter are laughing and Peter is pulling a $20 bill out of his wallet. Jesus is saying, "Told you he'd fall for it."

:D

And I thought I was joking when I said that some religious people are so anti-science that they don't believe in gravity.


Have you ever even once taken a real look at the science behind Intelligent Falling?

It is the nature of priests to sink beneath the waves.

LInk to story (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17646670&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=miracle-is-sunk--name_page.html)

A PRIEST has died after trying to demonstrate how Jesus walked on water.

Evangelist preacher Franck Kabele, 35, told his congregation he could repeat the biblical miracle.

But he drowned after walking out to sea from a beach in the capital Libreville in Gabon, west Africa.

One eyewitness said: "He told churchgoers he'd had a revelation that if he had enough faith, he could walk on water like Jesus.

"He took his congregation to the beach saying he would walk across the Komo estuary, which takes 20 minutes by boat.

"He walked into the water, which soon passed over his head and he never came back."


The Greeks (or was it the Romans?) had a word for this. Hubris.

And I thought I was joking when I said that some religious people are so anti-science that they don't believe in gravity.

But gravity is only a theory! (http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p67.htm)!!