NationStates Jolt Archive

The attachement is from the most recent addition od the sunday times, I couldnt get it to link so I copies and pasted all of it onto word.
It is a long document, but when you start reading it you want to know more.
I dont care whether you supported the war or the principe of the war,but surley you can agree with me that the way the war was planned and is playing out was and is a disater, that is putting young men and civilians in unnecesary danger.
what do you think should happen to these soldiers for 'deserting'?
I personaly think that no one should be forced away from their homes and families just because they dont want to /are too traumatised to go to war..
do you agree?

what do you think should happen to these soldiers for 'deserting'?

Brig time. Lost of all pay! Not only that but repaying the Federal Government for the money wasted on their training. On top of that, a dishonorable discharge.

I personaly think that no one should be forced away from their homes and families just because they dont want to /are too traumatised to go to war..

Do not want to be forced away from home to fight? Do not join the military.

do you agree?

no.

have you read the article.It seem shtat many of these people join the arm to go to college,get medical insurance,feed their families.Many also would go to war, but they believe that the iraq was is moraly wrong and that american(and other allies)and making things worse and treating civilians badly....they would fight,just not in iraq!

I seem to remember that Americans like to rant against conscription with "I don't want to fight alongside people who don't want to be there."

And they've got a point. Not only that: If you give soldiers some sort of choice, it will necessarily force the leaders to work out much more efficient and effective strategies.

have you read the article.

Son. I have been around the military my entire life. I know what the article already says without reading it. I have heard the arguments many times. Most notably in school.

It seems that many of these people join the army to go to college

Yep. They do. And they tell you that you are joining the army and that you could be deployed to far away lands. That includes a warzone. Anyone who cannot put two and two together and realizes that the Army FIGHTS WARS....that is not my problem or the army's. What I suggested would be fitting punishment for them.

Hey. Its better than shooting them as was done in the past.

,Many also would go to war, but they believe that the iraq was is moraly wrong and that american(and other allies)and making things worse and treating civilians badly....they would fight,just not in iraq!

Does not matter what they think. They are not paid to disobey orders. They are paid to do their jobs be it infantry, armor, artillery, pilot, logistics, mechanic, etc. If they have to do their jobs in a warzone then tough. Besides, they get paid more in a combat zone. It is called hazardous duty pay.

Maybe you should look at what the military does before jumping down the military's neck for punishing soldiers who desert and go awol. It is not their fault that they are to stupid not to comprehend that when they join the military that they may have to fight in a war.

Brig time. Lost of all pay! Not only that but repaying the Federal Government for the money wasted on their training. On top of that, a dishonorable discharge.



Do not want to be forced away from home to fight? Do not join the military.



no.

I agree with you. If you feel strongly enough about the war in Iraq to refuse to go when you're already in the military, you should be willing to endure the consequences of not going.

I feel sorry for them because they joined the army thinking they were going to be sent to do some good but then they found it was not for such great reasons after all. Or they still felt the reason was good but that the planning was so poor that its as if theirs and civilian lives dont matter. And they dont to the ones waging war.

These folks signed a contract and swore an oath. They are in breach of said contract, and in direct violation of that oath. They should be duly penalized for their transgressions. An extended time in jail is just.

have you read the article.It seem shtat many of these people join the arm to go to college,get medical insurance,feed their families.Many also would go to war, but they believe that the iraq was is moraly wrong and that american(and other allies)and making things worse and treating civilians badly....they would fight,just not in iraq!
It doesn't work that way, I'm going through the process of joining the Marine Corps right now, and they make damn well sure that you know you might go to war. You have to sign contracts saying that you are aware that you might go to war, and that you have no moral obligation against going to war. So the fact that they decided that they didn't want to go after signing the contracts means they forfeit the right to claim freedom from their punishment for breaking said contract.

Also, the media crap about treating civilians bad is nothing more than just that, media crap. If the media showed the side of the civilians accuratly, it would be a different game. One of my friends over there was minding his own business and a little kid threw a rock at him and hit him in the head, he couldn't, and didn't, do anything. Another time they had taken someone prisoner for assaulting troops, placed him in flex cuffs, and even loosened the flex cuffs when he broke down crying. Shortly after he assaulted them, again, and once again they couldn't anything other than wrestle him to the ground and tighten the cuffs again.

I feel sorry for them because they joined the army thinking they were going to be sent to do some good but then they found it was not for such great reasons after all. Or they still felt the reason was good but that the planning was so poor that its as if theirs and civilian lives dont matter. And they dont to the ones waging war.

Yet they joined the army all the same. They knew the risks and potential dangers of doing so.

This is a totally different situation from that in which a draft is in place. These folks volunteered. They did so of their own free will.

Son. I have been around the military my entire life. I know what the article already says without reading it. I have heard the arguments many times. Most notably in school.



Yep. They do. And they tell you that you are joining the army and that you could be deployed to far away lands. That includes a warzone. Anyone who cannot put two and two together and realizes that the Army FIGHTS WARS....that is not my problem or the army's. What I suggested would be fitting punishment for them.

Hey. Its better than shooting them as was done in the past.



Does not matter what they think. They are not paid to disobey orders. They are paid to do their jobs be it infantry, armor, artillery, pilot, logistics, mechanic, etc. If they have to do their jobs in a warzone then tough. Besides, they get paid more in a combat zone. It is called hazardous duty pay.

Maybe you should look at what the military does before jumping down the military's neck for punishing soldiers who desert and go awol. It is not their fault that they are to stupid not to comprehend that when they join the military that they may have to fight in a war.

I have little problem with the military, I just believe that people who are thinking of joining the army should have better info,but this doesnt happen because the army is so desperate to conscript...

I have little problem with the military, I just believe that people who are thinking of joining the army should have better info,but this doesnt happen because the army is so desperate to conscript...

Proper word is enlist. Conscript is to draft, which the US Military hasn't done since Vietnam.

I have little problem with the military, I just believe that people who are thinking of joining the army should have better info,but this doesnt happen because the army is so desperate to conscript...

Not bad for someone who is uninformed on just what precisely the Army tells someone when they actually enlist in the service.

I have little problem with the military, I just believe that people who are thinking of joining the army should have better info,but this doesnt happen because the army is so desperate to conscript...

No, the army makes sure you know. When I went to MEPS, that was something I heard from every different person I talked to, usually several times from each. So to claim they didn't have a clue they had a chance of going to Iraq is bullshit.

Son. I have been around the military my entire life. I know what the article already says without reading it. I have heard the arguments many times. Most notably in school.



Yep. They do. And they tell you that you are joining the army and that you could be deployed to far away lands. That includes a warzone. Anyone who cannot put two and two together and realizes that the Army FIGHTS WARS....that is not my problem or the army's. What I suggested would be fitting punishment for them.

Hey. Its better than shooting them as was done in the past.



Does not matter what they think. They are not paid to disobey orders. They are paid to do their jobs be it infantry, armor, artillery, pilot, logistics, mechanic, etc. If they have to do their jobs in a warzone then tough. Besides, they get paid more in a combat zone. It is called hazardous duty pay.

Maybe you should look at what the military does before jumping down the military's neck for punishing soldiers who desert and go awol. It is not their fault that they are to stupid not to comprehend that when they join the military that they may have to fight in a war.


i have to agree with you,adding,even if it is an unpopular war even more so,because any dissent could cause even more desertions,which will put even more troops in danger possibly.
not sure about that,but going awol is flat wrong,and if you truly are an objector..dont go in to begin with,or take your medicine(the brig) and be happy your not shot like in the past.

my son just graduated from fort benning(infantryland..home of all the special forces)and before he went in..we talked it over in great detail.
he did go in mainly for the future benefits...looks great on a job application if you leave the service,he wants to be a cop..the help he will get for college,etc.
but i and his recruiter repeatedly informed him that the possibility of going to war(pretty obvious as we are in a war) is not only possible..but probable.
anyone that goes into the service is well aware of this possible outcome,and to claim otherwise is bullshit.
most probably,they hoped to get the benefits of being a soldier,without the danger,and now are screwed....to bad..serve and have your comrades back,or serve in a cell and not pollute your fellow soldiers with your i hate to say..cowardice.

i have never been in combat(unless you count working in camden and north philly),but i know i would be scared shitless without ever being there,as i'm sure everyone is(unless they are insane)but i also know if i joined the military,i sure as hell would be aware of the possibilty of it,and scared or not..i would not let my fellow soldiers down,nor claim i was an objector after joining the MILITARY!

i have to agree with you,adding,even if it is an unpopular war even more so,because any dissent could cause even more desertions,which will put even more troops in danger possibly.
not sure about that,but going awol is flat wrong,and if you truly are an objector..dont go in to begin with,or take your medicine(the brig) and be happy your not shot like in the past.

my son just graduated from fort benning(infantryland..home of all the special forces)and before he went in..we talked it over in great detail.
he did go in mainly for the future benefits...looks great on a job application if you leave the service,he wants to be a cop..the help he will get for college,etc.
but i and his recruiter repeatedly informed him that the possibility of going to war(pretty obvious as we are in a war) is not only possible..but probable.
anyone that goes into the service is well aware of this possible outcome,and to claim otherwise is bullshit.
most probably,they hoped to get the benefits of being a soldier,without the danger,and now are screwed....to bad..serve and have your comrades back,or serve in a cell and not pollute your fellow soldiers with your i hate to say..cowardice.

i have never been in combat(unless you count working in camden and north philly),but i know i would be scared shitless without ever being there,as i'm sure everyone is(unless they are insane)but i also know if i joined the military,i sure as hell would be aware of the possibilty of it,and scared or not..i would not let my fellow soldiers down,nor claim i was an objector after joining the MILITARY!

I wish your son luck and hope he has a successful and safe career. If he is deployed, my prayers will be with him and you.

As to being scared, I remember a quote from the Babylon 5 Episode GROPOS: He who isn't scared is either dead or stupid.

When my father was in combat, he was scared himself even though he was in a plane thousands of feet in the air. It is normal to be scared.

I wish your son luck and hope he has a successful and safe career. If he is deployed, my prayers will be with him and you.

As to being scared, I remember a quote from the Babylon 5 Episode GROPOS: He who isn't scared is either dead or stupid.

When my father was in combat, he was scared himself even though he was in a plane thousands of feet in the air. It is normal to be scared.

thanks for the kind words alleghany cty.i will tell my son about the support he has from you and many.i am actually scared for him,but it was his decision(informed decision) and i guess i just have to deal with it.when his mom saw his training tape they gave us,she burst out in tears.
i asked her why she was so upset and not beaming with pride our kid made it thru fort benning in the dead of summer,and she said it finally dawned on her seeing him doing gft training and shooting..that he was in the service and could be killed?
duh..they aint playing gi joe honey i told her.
it is real and everyone knows it before they go in.
i understand her being upset as she is a mother,but i cant fathom someone signing up and being unaware of the possibility of going to war..especially after bootcamp.

my father,uncle,grandfather all served in combat..and each one told me they were terrified every minute they were there.and anyone that said they werent were either full of it,or truly a sociopath...and the army usually weeds them out.

thanks for the kind words alleghany cty.i will tell my son about the support he has from you and many.i am actually scared for him,but it was his decision(informed decision) and i guess i just have to deal with it.when his mom saw his training tape they gave us,she burst out in tears.

It is ok to be scared. I know I cried myself everytime my father went into combat.

i asked her why she was so upset and not beaming with pride our kid made it thru fort benning in the dead of summer,and she said it finally dawned on her seeing him doing gft training and shooting..that he was in the service and could be killed?

As my mom would say, its a mother thing.

duh..they aint playing gi joe honey i told her.

Well actually, he is but I know what you mean.

it is real and everyone knows it before they go in.

You hit that one right on the head.

i understand her being upset as she is a mother,but i cant fathom someone signing up and being unaware of the possibility of going to war..especially after bootcamp.

Goes to show people do not think clearly nor do they look before they leap.

my father,uncle,grandfather all served in combat..and each one told me they were terrified every minute they were there.and anyone that said they werent were either full of it,or truly a sociopath...and the army usually weeds them out.

I could not have said it better myself. May the Lord bless you and may He keep your son safe.

Stupid idiots shouldn't have joined the army if they weren't ready to bomb foreign countries to fuck and back in the name of mcGasoline under orders from a drooling idiot for no good reason.