NationStates Jolt Archive

As I have maintained....just a load of hot air and people runinng around like headless chickens...not at all impressed...iow bollocks.

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html

There is also a NYTimes article that I am not allowed to access due to the court cases -

On advice of legal counsel, this article is unavailable to readers of nytimes.com in Britain. This arises from the requirement in British law that prohibits publication of prejudicial information about the defendants prior to trial.

linky link (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/world/europe/28plot.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=09d0e2102978e4b1&hp&ex=1156824000&partner=homepage&oref=slogin)

I cannot post the article...due to the above. I have read it though.

Maybe our Non UK friends can post it???

Ny times, need i say more?

As I have maintained....just a load of hot air and people runinng around like headless chickens...not at all impressed...iow bollocks.

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html

There is also a NYTimes article that I am not allowed to access due to the court cases -

On advice of legal counsel, this article is unavailable to readers of nytimes.com in Britain. This arises from the requirement in British law that prohibits publication of prejudicial information about the defendants prior to trial.

linky link (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/world/europe/28plot.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=09d0e2102978e4b1&hp&ex=1156824000&partner=homepage&oref=slogin)

I cannot post the article...due to the above. I have read it though.

Maybe our Non UK friends can post it???

I already posted the NYT article yesterday in its entirety.

Well, 15 have been charged. Let's wait until the trial when all the evidence and testimony comes out. Until then we don't have much to talk about, do we?

I already posted the NYT article yesterday in its entirety.

thats pretty efficient, for a toe-rag ;)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11614198&postcount=4

Looks like Tactical Grace chopped it out, because of UK laws.

Sorry, can't post it for you. UK laws and all that.

Yes this "bomobing plot" was all a bunch of "nonosense."
I'm sorry, I know that mocking people's spelling is in bad form, but the fact that he put his own typo in quotation marks makes it just too hilarious not to notice.

Yes this "bomobing plot" was all a bunch of "nonosense."
I'm sorry, I know that mocking people's spelling is in bad form, but the fact that he put his own typo in quotation marks makes it just too hilarious not to notice.

Uh oh. Rubiconic will now accuse you of being a "troll boi".

*waits for it*

Uh oh. Rubiconic will now accuse you of being a "troll boi".

*waits for it*
Don't worry, I can "hanadle" a bit of name-calling, just so long as doesn't try to retaliate with a "letter bomob."

I guess the Pakistanis arresting Matiur Rahman was for notothing then...

Same with Rashid Rauf. Maybe they will be handed over to the Brits to maybe some sightseeing tours in Lonodon.

I guess the Pakistanis arresting Matiur Rahman was for notothing then...

Same with Rashid Rauf. Maybe they will be handed over to the Brits to maybe some sightseeing tours in Lonodon.

From the NYT story, it sounds like the people arrested in Britain are screwed.

Ny times, need i say more?

In order to be clearly understood, yes, I should think so.

From the NYT story, it sounds like the people arrested in Britain are screwed.

Pretty much. I do have doubts about the "imminent threat" part and the actual viability of the plot if it was not thwarted at this stage but I can see the intent of the suspects and the seriousness of the issue to know it is real.

That Hafiz Saeed of LeT was put under house arrest the day the plot was revealed is a clincher for me. This plot has LeT written all over it.

"But at the same time, five senior British officials said, the suspects were not prepared to strike immediately. Instead, the reactions of Britain and the United States in the wake of the arrests of 21 people on Aug. 10 were driven less by information about a specific, imminent attack than fear that other, unknown terrorists might strike."

"Two of the suspects did not have passports, but had applied for expedited approval. One official said the people suspected of leading the plot were still recruiting and radicalizing would-be bombers.

While investigators found evidence on a computer memory stick indicating that one of the men had looked up airline schedules for flights from London to cities in the United States, the suspects had neither made reservations nor purchased plane tickets, a British official said."

Hype, to justify laws that werent used here, by the looks of things. Insane really.

Don't worry, I can "hanadle" a bit of name-calling, just so long as doesn't try to retaliate with a "letter bomob."

He might go "posatal".

DK - I missed your post. Apologies. Had I seen it I'd have commented.

Spelling - yeah...well....bomobing...what can I say?! /sheepish

Of course you are all expert spellers yes? Let he without sin cast the first stone etc...surprised my unique spelling of runinng wasn't pick up either! :rolleyes:

For what its worth...English is not my first language..that'll be German. Mind you my German is worse than my English.

What I have always said was that this 'plot' was rubbish. I suspect I shall be shown to be correct.

These guys were amatuers. They had no idea what they were doing. The fact is that given our current situation (terror from Islamic nutcases in countries with substantial Islamic populations) any action from the state must follow the rule of law. One of the principles of this is the idea of proportional response.

This case has not not followed that principle. Its gone completely over the top and has done nothing to stop the radicalisation of Islamics. The list of mistakes is growing longer...the Ricin Plot, Forest Gate, the shooting of a Brazillian electrician....some 1000 odd people arrested and only 2 people convicted.

It is not an easy thing to deal with but given other intrangencies of the UK Police (Midlands Serious Crime Squad anybody?) it makes a mockery of even handed policing that this country was famous for.

It also does not help having someone like 'Dr' Reid who is systematically (as his predecessors have done) enforcing a police state. His record is not exactly nice is it? Communist enforcer...hardline Stalinist...do you really think that he has changed his spots?

Of course terrorism needs to be dealt with. Doing it in a way that radicalises people and makes others doubt the legal system to the extent where they feel the need to really question every act of policing is not the sign of a healthy democracy.

The really sad thing is that this process has been on going since the Public Order Act and Criminal Justice Acts of the 1980's. One hopes that this insanity is coming to an end. Our politicians obviously do not know what they are doing except reacting with draconian legislation and activities.

If this continues....well it does not bode well.

Afterall what do career politicians like most of all? More power of course.

or am I being too cynical?

DK - I missed your post. Apologies. Had I seen it I'd have commented.

Spelling - yeah...well....bomobing...what can I say?! /sheepish

Of course you are all expert spellers yes? Let he without sin cast the first stone etc...surprised my unique spelling of runinng wasn't pick up either! :rolleyes:

For what its worth...English is not my first language..that'll be German. Mind you my German is worse than my English.

What I have always said was that this 'plot' was rubbish. I suspect I shall be shown to be correct.

These guys were amatuers. They had no idea what they were doing. The fact is that given our current situation (terror from Islamic nutcases in countries with substantial Islamic populations) any action from the state must follow the rule of law. One of the principles of this is the idea of proportional response.

This case has not not followed that principle. Its gone completely over the top and has done nothing to stop the radicalisation of Islamics. The list of mistakes is growing longer...the Ricin Plot, Forest Gate, the shooting of a Brazillian electrician....some 1000 odd people arrested and only 2 people convicted.

It is not an easy thing to deal with but given other intrangencies of the UK Police (Midlands Serious Crime Squad anybody?) it makes a mockery of even handed policing that this country was famous for.

It also does not help having someone like 'Dr' Reid who is systematically (as his predecessors have done) enforcing a police state. His record is not exactly nice is it? Communist enforcer...hardline Stalinist...do you really think that he has changed his spots?

Of course terrorism needs to be dealt with. Doing it in a way that radicalises people and makes others doubt the legal system to the extent where they feel the need to really question every act of policing is not the sign of a healthy democracy.

The really sad thing is that this process has been on going since the Public Order Act and Criminal Justice Acts of the 1980's. One hopes that this insanity is coming to an end. Our politicians obviously do not know what they are doing except reacting with draconian legislation and activities.

If this continues....well it does not bode well.

Afterall what do career politicians like most of all? More power of course.

i think you make some very good points.

or am I being too cynical?
Unfortunately not....:(

DK - I missed your post. Apologies. Had I seen it I'd have commented.

Spelling - yeah...well....bomobing...what can I say?! /sheepish

Of course you are all expert spellers yes? Let he without sin cast the first stone etc...surprised my unique spelling of runinng wasn't pick up either! :rolleyes:

For what its worth...English is not my first language..that'll be German. Mind you my German is worse than my English.

What I have always said was that this 'plot' was rubbish. I suspect I shall be shown to be correct.

These guys were amatuers. They had no idea what they were doing. The fact is that given our current situation (terror from Islamic nutcases in countries with substantial Islamic populations) any action from the state must follow the rule of law. One of the principles of this is the idea of proportional response.

This case has not not followed that principle. Its gone completely over the top and has done nothing to stop the radicalisation of Islamics. The list of mistakes is growing longer...the Ricin Plot, Forest Gate, the shooting of a Brazillian electrician....some 1000 odd people arrested and only 2 people convicted.

It is not an easy thing to deal with but given other intrangencies of the UK Police (Midlands Serious Crime Squad anybody?) it makes a mockery of even handed policing that this country was famous for.

It also does not help having someone like 'Dr' Reid who is systematically (as his predecessors have done) enforcing a police state. His record is not exactly nice is it? Communist enforcer...hardline Stalinist...do you really think that he has changed his spots?

Of course terrorism needs to be dealt with. Doing it in a way that radicalises people and makes others doubt the legal system to the extent where they feel the need to really question every act of policing is not the sign of a healthy democracy.

The really sad thing is that this process has been on going since the Public Order Act and Criminal Justice Acts of the 1980's. One hopes that this insanity is coming to an end. Our politicians obviously do not know what they are doing except reacting with draconian legislation and activities.

If this continues....well it does not bode well.

Afterall what do career politicians like most of all? More power of course.

Consider that your courts don't allow the evidence that WE can see be published for you. In fact, when I posted it here, Tactical Grace immediately censored it.

I'll sum it up for you - you already look like a fool.

Consider that your courts don't allow the evidence that WE can see be published for you. In fact, when I posted it here, Tactical Grace immediately censored it.

I'll sum it up for you - you already look like a fool.

Nice one DK....please read my OP.

The part where it states I have already read the article?

Back to your trolling ways I see...

ah well.

Nice one DK....please read my OP.

The part where it states I have already read the article?

Back to your trolling ways I see...

ah well.
If I have video tapes of the plotters saying what they intend to do (that the plotters made), and video and audio surveillance of the same, and physical evidence such as explosives, which they do - the case is as good as gold.

Are you going to say, "the police made this all up"?

If I have video tapes of the plotters saying what they intend to do (that the plotters made), and video and audio surveillance of the same, and physical evidence such as explosives, which they do - the case is as good as gold.

Are you going to say, "the police made this all up"?

“In retrospect,’’ said Michael A. Sheehan, the former deputy commissioner of counterterrorism in the New York Police Department, “there may have been too much hyperventilating going on.”

From the article (I do not think this is breaking sub judice).

“In retrospect,’’ said Michael A. Sheehan, the former deputy commissioner of counterterrorism in the New York Police Department, “there may have been too much hyperventilating going on.”[/i]

From the article (I do not think this is breaking sub judice).

He's talking about the immediacy of the plot. You are of course leaving out the fact that the plot itself was underway, credible, and there's a mountain of evidence to support that - and that was in the article.

He's talking about the immediacy of the plot. You are of course leaving out the fact that the plot itself was underway, credible, and there's a mountain of evidence to support that - and that was in the article.

I think you really REALLY need to learn to read.

It was not underway - they were still recruiting. They still had pass port issues. The 'suspected bomb making equipment' was 30 miles away. British officials stated 'the suspects were not prepared to strike immediately'.

Credible - A chemist involved in that part of the inquiry, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was sworn to confidentiality, said HMTD, which can be prepared by combining hydrogen peroxide with other chemicals, “in theory is dangerous,” but whether the suspects “had the brights to pull it off remains to be seen.”.

All in the article and once more I don't think I am breaking sub judice. All this is out in the public domain in the UK.

Evidence - until a conviction is gained is in the eye of the holder.

You DK, are as hysterical as the idiots in the Whitehouse and Downing Street.

damm cencorship.

I already posted the NYT article yesterday in its entirety.

where?I would like to read it even tho Im in britain,can you post a link or summink?

I think you really REALLY need to learn to read.

It was not underway - they were still recruiting. They still had pass port issues. The 'suspected bomb making equipment' was 30 miles away. British officials stated 'the suspects were not prepared to strike immediately'.

Credible - A chemist involved in that part of the inquiry, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was sworn to confidentiality, said HMTD, which can be prepared by combining hydrogen peroxide with other chemicals, “in theory is dangerous,” but whether the suspects “had the brights to pull it off remains to be seen.”.

All in the article and once more I don't think I am breaking sub judice. All this is out in the public domain in the UK.

Evidence - until a conviction is gained is in the eye of the holder.

You DK, are as hysterical as the idiots in the Whitehouse and Downing Street.

should you be arrested for something you havent done?Surley you can for planning to do something, but if the plan wasnt advanced then your charge is lowere and the sentance lower.I personally want to wait for a trial, innocent until proven guilty.I still dont trust the government,and am afraid that the real truth will not come out due to propganda and spin.

[QUOTE=Rubiconic Crossings;11617993

What I have always said was that this 'plot' was rubbish. I suspect I shall be shown to be correct.

These guys were amatuers. They had no idea what they were doing. The fact is that given our current situation (terror from Islamic nutcases in countries with substantial Islamic populations) any action from the state must follow the rule of law. One of the principles of this is the idea of proportional response.

This case has not not followed that principle. Its gone completely over the top and has done nothing to stop the radicalisation of Islamics. The list of mistakes is growing longer...the Ricin Plot, Forest Gate, the shooting of a Brazillian electrician....some 1000 odd people arrested and only 2 people convicted.

[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but that is a load of bull. your 2 convicted is actually 76 and the british government is only doing what it needs to do. If thes people werent arrested and were allowed to walk around on the streets then there would be more terrorist attacks than you'd know wat to do with. I know someone that used to be haed of the british intelligence agencies and he said that if we didnt do half the staff MI5 and the police did then we would all be living in a world filled with people killing hundreds to make a point. When your country comes undr attack and theres not much you can do to stop it then you see how much you like it. Next time, before posting something like this think about what they are doing to help you

Funny thing. When the US tries to tackle terrorism with military force people scream that it should be a law enforcement issue. Now the UK is trying to tackle terrorism through law enforcement and people seem to be bitching about that approach. So what's the third alternative? Should we all join Al Qaeda? That way we no longer have to worry about being blown up. We'll be too busy strapping on our suicide bomber vests.

I think you really REALLY need to learn to read.

It was not underway - they were still recruiting. They still had pass port issues. The 'suspected bomb making equipment' was 30 miles away. British officials stated 'the suspects were not prepared to strike immediately'.

Credible - A chemist involved in that part of the inquiry, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was sworn to confidentiality, said HMTD, which can be prepared by combining hydrogen peroxide with other chemicals, “in theory is dangerous,” but whether the suspects “had the brights to pull it off remains to be seen.”.

All in the article and once more I don't think I am breaking sub judice. All this is out in the public domain in the UK.

Evidence - until a conviction is gained is in the eye of the holder.

You DK, are as hysterical as the idiots in the Whitehouse and Downing Street.

So inept bombers should be ignored and in any case bombers in general should not be arrested until they are actually 100% ready or even bette wait until they have manufactured the bombs and are en route to use them? Why would this be better?

Funny thing. When the US tries to tackle terrorism with military force people scream that it should be a law enforcement issue. Now the UK is trying to tackle terrorism through law enforcement and people seem to be bitching about that approach. So what's the third alternative? Should we all join Al Qaeda? That way we no longer have to worry about being blown up. We'll be too busy strapping on our suicide bomber vests.

Using torture (or information gained through it) is using the law enforcement approach now?

Using torture (or information gained through it) is using the law enforcement approach now?

What's wrong with using the information after it's offered? Wouldn't it compound the tragedy if the information gained were ignored and that led to more death and suffering? Plus these guys weren't arrested and charged just on the word of a guy who's been tortured.

What's wrong with using the information after it's offered?
That fact it might not be accurate or reliable?

Nevermind the moral implications for condoning the use of torture to obtain information from a suspect.

That fact it might not be accurate or reliable?

Always best to be safe. For example, if a terror suspect in Pakistan has been tortured and has revealed the location of a bomb in Britain, it's always best to be safe and check it out. If it's false, no harm done. Unless you'd think it's better to take the moral high ground even if it means hundreds or even thousands of people dying?

I'm sorry but that is a load of bull. your 2 convicted is actually 76 and the british government is only doing what it needs to do. If thes people werent arrested and were allowed to walk around on the streets then there would be more terrorist attacks than you'd know wat to do with. I know someone that used to be haed of the british intelligence agencies and he said that if we didnt do half the staff MI5 and the police did then we would all be living in a world filled with people killing hundreds to make a point. When your country comes undr attack and theres not much you can do to stop it then you see how much you like it. Next time, before posting something like this think about what they are doing to help you

that 76....only two were Islamics you plonker...and I really really doubt you know anyone from SIS. Esp the head of SIS...not that you know what SIS is.

As for my country...well I don't want a police/authoritarian state thank you very much...as that is what the Islamics nutters want.

should you be arrested for something you havent done?Surley you can for planning to do something, but if the plan wasnt advanced then your charge is lowere and the sentance lower.I personally want to wait for a trial, innocent until proven guilty.I still dont trust the government,and am afraid that the real truth will not come out due to propganda and spin.

bingo! They did not need to go through the terror crap of shutting down the airports and the like...the politicians have used this is an excuse to enforce more draconian legislation that really is not needed...

I have never said that they should not have been arrested....what I have said is that they need to be totally certain that they are in fact arrestable and convictable...

if they walk...it will demolish whatever respect is left for the police...who are in a virtually impossoble situation thanks to Blair and his cronies.

Funny thing. When the US tries to tackle terrorism with military force people scream that it should be a law enforcement issue. Now the UK is trying to tackle terrorism through law enforcement and people seem to be bitching about that approach. So what's the third alternative? Should we all join Al Qaeda? That way we no longer have to worry about being blown up. We'll be too busy strapping on our suicide bomber vests.

not at all mate...and that is not what I have said. I have always maintained (as posted here in NSG) that the way to tackle this is via criminal prosecutions...not as political prisoners...

The problem is that the police have fucked it too many times...and that must stop...the more people are arrested and then released the more we radicalise the normal Muslim population in this country.

Back during the troubles the news would broadcast pics of whatever weapons cache had been found...on the day virtually...so far we have seen fuck all.

Then to have the Home Sec say that we are facing the darkest hour since WWII and totally ignoring the 30 years of IRA terror we have faced....please....pull the other one!

So inept bombers should be ignored and in any case bombers in general should not be arrested until they are actually 100% ready or even bette wait until they have manufactured the bombs and are en route to use them? Why would this be better?

Once again...I have never said that.

What's wrong with using the information after it's offered? Wouldn't it compound the tragedy if the information gained were ignored and that led to more death and suffering? Plus these guys weren't arrested and charged just on the word of a guy who's been tortured.

because torturing people to extract information does not work. It simply does not work.