NationStates Jolt Archive

Laissez les bons temps rouler! Raise a glass to drowned New Orleans today.

Since I haven't really seen anything on it, what does NSG have to say about New Orleans a year after?

Laissez les bons temps rouler! Raise a glass to drowned New Orleans today.

Since I haven't really seen anything on it, what does NSG have to say about New Orleans a year after?

HBO has a documentary on Katrina, and how New Orleans is doing today.

Four parts, each about 66 mins long.

Done by Spike Lee.

Ive seen part one so far, and intend to watch the rest of them.

I will say that the lack of timely response for all those stranded, was abyssmally slow, and when foreign governments respond quicker than FEMA, or the National Guard.....theres something horribly wrong.

Its a fucking disgrace.

New Orleans looked like a third world country, and many, many died needlessly.

It made me ashamed to be an American.

Laissez les bons temps rouler! Raise a glass to drowned New Orleans today.

Since I haven't really seen anything on it, what does NSG have to say about New Orleans a year after?A friend of mine who lost his house there and managed to get out in time was pretty displeased as to how the whole thing got twisted and schewed by the media.

And he was unaware that Germany had sent food and supplies until he was over in Germany and I told him so.

bump

I'm still pissed at the slow response from the government. This happened here, in our own country! This should not have become the catastrophe that it ended up being. How the hell could it take five days for FEMA to show up?!?!

The whole thing was screwed up, and I'm still mad as hell about it.

New Orleans was left behind by the rest of the country long before Hurricane Katrina.

I'm still pissed at the slow response from the government. This happened here, in our own country! This should not have become the catastrophe that it ended up being. How the hell could it take five days for FEMA to show up?!?.

It's even more troublesome when you recall that similar problems were seen in the responses to hurricanes Hugo and Andrew (Category 4 and 5 respectively) in 1988 and 1992. That means these problems have been around for at least 17 years and nothing has been done to address them...it's disgraceful.

One can only wonder at the devastation other powerful hurricanes like Mitch might have done had they hit the US...

It's even more troublesome when you recall that similar problems were seen in the responses to hurricanes Hugo and Andrew (both Category 5) in 1988 and 1992. That means these problems have been around for at least 17 years and nothing has been done to address them...it's disgraceful.

One can only wonder at the devastation other powerful hurricanes like Mitch might have done had they hit the US...

And yet there weren't as many problems with FEMA responses when James Lee Witt was in charge of the joint. Wonder why? ;)

I grew up in NOLA and have been back three times since Katrina hit (once immediately after, once in December, and once in July). I still have immediate family there.

The biggest thing that I've learned is that the media didn't get it right before, and still isn't doing much better. The reporting is almost always skewed one way or another. Spike Lee can kiss my ass.

Besides, those who think FEMA and the Feds shoulder all the responsibility for the botched rescue efforts seem to enjoy re-defining FEMA's mandate after the fact. As much as I'm embarassed to say so, the local and state officials really dropped the ball. Actually, I don't think they ever even really had the ball to begin with. The only thing that somewhat worked was contra flow, so that those who chose to could get the hell out in plenty of time.

As to what the city looks like now, it really depends on which area you go to. Those adjacent to failed levees look far worse than most other areas, naturally. There has been alot of clean-up done by the city. Most of the debris in the lower 9th ward near the repaired levee breach is cleaned up. Streets are passable, and any neighborhood with any significant population has power and water. Most stoplights are working. While there are still many houses and lots that have not been touched, don't forget that they are private property, and for the near future at least, can't be dealt with by the city or state. I don't know how long befor it would be considered abandoned in a legal sense, but considering the extraneous circumstances, you gotta cut people some slack. The city has generally picked up everything from the street through the sidewalk.

Still, many neighborhoods look almost as bad as they did in December, especially those hardest hit. A drive through moderately affluent Lakeview, and you may see one house in a block that is mostly repaired, while the rest look barely touched. Weeds grow fast down there in the summer; it is semi-tropical after all.

Uptown, the Garden District, and most places along the river (including the French Quarter and CBD) don't look much different than they did before the storm. At least not at first glance.

Right next door, Metairie is bursting at the seams. Many people are moving away, but houses are selling like hotcakes to those who lost everything in N.O. and want to come back to the area or to those contractors that plan on being around for a while. If your house wasn't next to a broken levee, its value may have shot up 30% or more.

Home Depot and Lowe's are always busy, but I was able to get supplies in July without much trouble. Many businesses are not open as late as they were before the storm, however - entry-level jobs are hard to fill down there right now. If you want fast food, you better plan on that before 8:00pm or you're out of luck. Still, I had no problem finding plenty of bars open into the wee hours! Which was most welcome after working on my mother's house all day in the heat.

Such is my experience. At least as much as I feel like typing at the moment.

And yet there weren't as many problems with FEMA responses when James Lee Witt was in charge of the joint. Wonder why? ;)

Because Clinton actually respected FEMA and didn't use it as a dumping ground for his cronies?

I shudder at what FEMA might have been were we not to have 8 years of reform to aid us.:eek:

I've never been but long wanted to. Last night I went to a restaurant for dessert where they were donating 100% of the dessert proceeds to Katrina releif. Expensive desserts too.

I'll hopefully visit New Orleans some time in the future.

Because Clinton actually respected FEMA and didn't use it as a dumping ground for his cronies?

I shudder at what FEMA might have been were we not to have 8 years of reform to aid us.:eek:

It would be gone by now, cut as another example of government not working for people and replaced by an overpaid privatized system. You know, it's hard to make government work well if you premise every bit of your governing on the idea that it can't. I'm convinced that's part of the reason the government runs so poorly under Republicans--they don't want to make it work well, because if it does, then they're proved wrong, and their buddies in the privatization business won't get the big, fat government checks (read: corporate welfare) to do the job the government ought to be doing.

What I don't understand is why they're rebuiliding it in the same, below-sea level place. Wouldn't it would make more sense to biild it in a place less exposed?

It's even more troublesome when you recall that similar problems were seen in the responses to hurricanes Hugo and Andrew (both Category 5) in 1988 and 1992. That means these problems have been around for at least 17 years and nothing has been done to address them...it's disgraceful.

Actually, Hugo was a Category 4 Hurricane.

One can only wonder at the devastation other powerful hurricanes like Mitch might have done had they hit the US...

*shudders* My father did Hurricane Mitch relief in Central America. Some of the things he seen.....*shudders again*

Actually, Hugo was a Category 4 Hurricane.

My mistake....fixed. Of course, Katrina actually hit as a Category 4 so it's kind of on the same level.

*shudders* My father did Hurricane Mitch relief in Central America. Some of the things he seen.....*shudders again*

It was horrific...over 18,000 dead and thousands more injured with over half a million homeless.

I grew up in NOLA and have been back three times since Katrina hit (once immediately after, once in December, and once in July). I still have immediate family there.

The biggest thing that I've learned is that the media didn't get it right before, and still isn't doing much better. The reporting is almost always skewed one way or another. Spike Lee can kiss my ass.

Besides, those who think FEMA and the Feds shoulder all the responsibility for the botched rescue efforts seem to enjoy re-defining FEMA's mandate after the fact. As much as I'm embarassed to say so, the local and state officials really dropped the ball. Actually, I don't think they ever even really had the ball to begin with. The only thing that somewhat worked was contra flow, so that those who chose to could get the hell out in plenty of time.

As to what the city looks like now, it really depends on which area you go to. Those adjacent to failed levees look far worse than most other areas, naturally. There has been alot of clean-up done by the city. Most of the debris in the lower 9th ward near the repaired levee breach is cleaned up. Streets are passable, and any neighborhood with any significant population has power and water. Most stoplights are working. While there are still many houses and lots that have not been touched, don't forget that they are private property, and for the near future at least, can't be dealt with by the city or state. I don't know how long befor it would be considered abandoned in a legal sense, but considering the extraneous circumstances, you gotta cut people some slack. The city has generally picked up everything from the street through the sidewalk.

Still, many neighborhoods look almost as bad as they did in December, especially those hardest hit. A drive through moderately affluent Lakeview, and you may see one house in a block that is mostly repaired, while the rest look barely touched. Weeds grow fast down there in the summer; it is semi-tropical after all.

Uptown, the Garden District, and most places along the river (including the French Quarter and CBD) don't look much different than they did before the storm. At least not at first glance.

Right next door, Metairie is bursting at the seams. Many people are moving away, but houses are selling like hotcakes to those who lost everything in N.O. and want to come back to the area or to those contractors that plan on being around for a while. If your house wasn't next to a broken levee, its value may have shot up 30% or more.

Home Depot and Lowe's are always busy, but I was able to get supplies in July without much trouble. Many businesses are not open as late as they were before the storm, however - entry-level jobs are hard to fill down there right now. If you want fast food, you better plan on that before 8:00pm or you're out of luck. Still, I had no problem finding plenty of bars open into the wee hours! Which was most welcome after working on my mother's house all day in the heat.

Such is my experience. At least as much as I feel like typing at the moment.


my brother has lived there for 20 years,i have been there 3 or 4 times...i absolutely love the place,it is like a different planet.

he lives in metaire,his home was damaged but not destroyed,had to relocate to houston for 2-3 months,but is home now,and evrything is repaired and back to normal.

he also says what you did...the state and local gov't seriously dropped the ball.
the guard could not go in till requested,and apparently they were there,sitting on their hands waiting for the request for assistance from the govenor.
also...if the city had done a better job of evac'ing,or helping those that couldnt on their own...many innocents would not have died.

you have to understand,if tens of thousands of people are in the city when the cane hit..and did not evac,the fed's or anyone cant just snap their fingers and wisk everyone to safety.
it was the state and local gov that let their people down,by not helping the poor to evac(remember the 100's of buses sitting idly .
what does everyone think...a massive hurricane is bearing down...and the fed's who are not there..can just magically wisk everyone to safety?
the people that should have led people to safety where the ones that were there..the state and local gov.

i don't like bush,or his admin..but to blame them is not fair...the fact that a year later things are not back to normal..maybe...but the actual events nightmares are to be blamed squarely on those at fault...the state and local authorities.

What I don't understand is why they're rebuiliding it in the same, below-sea level place. Wouldn't it would make more sense to biild it in a place less exposed?

New Orleans was described by a geographer--Pearce, I believe his name was--as "the inevitable city on an impossible site." New Orleans is there because it has to be there, as a port and as an entryway to the middle of the continent.

New Orleans was described by a geographer--Pearce, I believe his name was--as "the inevitable city on an impossible site." New Orleans is there because it has to be there, as a port and as an entryway to the middle of the continent.

$20 billion in trade a year is definitely worth the cost to upgrade the levee system and defend the city from hurricanes even though it's below sea level. Also, nearly 3.1 million barrels of oil and oil products come through the city; that's 15% of US consumption and pretty damn important to our economy.

However, New Orleans could improve its defenses considerably if it closed some of the older, outdated and underutilized canals and rehabilitated coastal wetlands to improve natural drainage; that would support the levee and pumping system and make the overall defense stronger.

$20 billion in trade a year is definitely worth the cost to upgrade the levee system and defend the city from hurricanes even though it's below sea level. Also, nearly 3.1 million barrels of oil and oil products come through the city; that's 15% of US consumption and pretty damn important to our economy.

However, New Orleans could improve its defenses considerably if it closed some of the older, outdated and underutilized canals and rehabilitated coastal wetlands to improve natural drainage; that would support the levee and pumping system and make the overall defense stronger.

Yeah, you can thank the Corps of Engineers for a lot of that. NO lost a lot of wetlands to erosion thanks to a decision decades ago by the Corps to capture silt upriver and run it down until it dropped off the coastal shelf, so they wouldn't have to dredge as much. A perfect example of a short term solution causing a long term problem.

Yeah, you can thank the Corps of Engineers for a lot of that. NO lost a lot of wetlands to erosion thanks to a decision decades ago by the Corps to capture silt upriver and run it down until it dropped off the coastal shelf, so they wouldn't have to dredge as much. A perfect example of a short term solution causing a long term problem.

Unfortunately, it seems too many of the people who plan these projects don't think of the long term consequences. I guess we're lucky that this hurricane has raised awareness both in the general public and the government about the dangers of short-term planning at the cost of the long term, especially in vulnerable places like New Orleans.

Unfortunately, it seems too many of the people who plan these projects don't think of the long term consequences. I guess we're lucky that this hurricane has raised awareness both in the general public and the government about the dangers of short-term planning at the cost of the long term, especially in vulnerable places like New Orleans.Yeah, but will it make a difference? I have my doubts, at least as far as this administration is concerned.

And to all those who would scream about local responsibility, let me say this--New Orleans as a port and an entryway for oil and natural gas is a strategic national issue. The feds have to do this--it's a matter of national security.

My mistake....fixed. Of course, Katrina actually hit as a Category 4 so it's kind of on the same level.



It was horrific...over 18,000 dead and thousands more injured with over half a million homeless.

Let us also not forget that alot of their housing would not have been able to withstand even Category 1 force winds. Not to mention their economic status.

he lives in metaire,his home was damaged but not destroyed,had to relocate to houston for 2-3 months,but is home now,and evrything is repaired and back to normal.

I grew up in Metairie; my mother, grandmother, uncle, and several friends still live there. I try to get back whenever I can - I'll always be 'home'. Same story as your brother - houses damaged, but not destroyed.

One other thing that I would like to point out to others - the responsibility of the individuals themselves. Everyone who has lived in New Orleans for any length of time knew exactly what the likely outcome would be of a category 4 or 5 hitting the city. The danger was public knowledge. I was not surprised in the least by what happened. It was pretty much exactly as I expected, just days before the storm hit. Granted, some people may not have had an easy way out of the city, but you have to acknowledge, in N.O., even most of the poor have cars. Perhaps they didn't have lots of money for hotel rooms, but many more could have saved their own lives had they chosen to. Part of the problem was a culture of relying on government, government that then failed at all levels to help them out. This also was not a shock to me.

However, my hat is off to the Coast Guard. They were flying the choppers with the rescue baskets almost as soon as the winds stopped. Too bad there were so few of them that it took many days to get to all the people on roof tops, but they at least did a 'heckuva' job.

One final thing, no matter how well the government could have reacted, it still would have been a day or so before releif really started rolling in. The hurricaine made half of the routes into the city impassable, and the others questionable. New Orleans is almost an island - most of the entry points are via bridge. Katrina destroyed some of them (most notable I-10 ove the lake) and it was not immediately known if the Causeway or I-10 over the spillway were structurally sound. Most points south were hit just as hard or harder than New Orleans. You can't keep all the relief supplies and equipment in the path of the storm, or you risk losing them too. Think school buses. The night before the storm, a volunteer firefighter friend of mine was busy helping to drive all the firetucks for his and other districts out of the area, so they wouldn't be lost to flood.

How to handle the situation is not as simple, clear, or easy when you've really thought through all of the permutations. People need to re-learn how to fend for themselves somewhat.

Yeah, but will it make a difference? I have my doubts, at least as far as this administration is concerned.

And to all those who would scream about local responsibility, let me say this--New Orleans as a port and an entryway for oil and natural gas is a strategic national issue. The feds have to do this--it's a matter of national security.

And New York, Washington, Los Angeles, etc are all vital to national security. Why don't we just scrap the whole federal system of government and just have a national government to do all the central planning? I'm sure that they would know best what each local area's issues and concerns are, and would be immune to corruption. :rolleyes:

Yeah, you can thank the Corps of Engineers for a lot of that. NO lost a lot of wetlands to erosion thanks to a decision decades ago by the Corps to capture silt upriver and run it down until it dropped off the coastal shelf, so they wouldn't have to dredge as much. A perfect example of a short term solution causing a long term problem.

Yes, there are lots of examples of this. The Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet (Mr. Go) is a prime example of something built without thought to the consequences. It's hardly used for shipping as it was intended, but it sure helps to funnel storm surge into St.Bernard Parish and the Industrial Canal via the Intracoastal Waterway.

This is from the Times Picayune (the N.O. newspaper). It's a pretty good animation covering the Katrina timeline.

http://www.nola.com/katrina/graphics/flashflood.swf

What I don't understand is why they're rebuiliding it in the same, below-sea level place. Wouldn't it would make more sense to biild it in a place less exposed?

Human nature. People don't like change (and in this case it will be horribly painful and costly change at that). But they are just putting off the inevetable. New Orleans (and Baton Rouge) days are numberd as important cities.

N.O. is rapidly sinking. And not just below sea level. It is below river level as well. The river towers over the city. Only a system of huge leves protects it. And the river itself has been trying to change course for the last century (it changes course every few hundred to one thousand years). If the Old River Flood Control Structure hadn't been built, the Mississippi would now be flowing down the Atchafalaya River. It was estimated the river would switch channels between 1965 and 1975. We prevented it by damming the Old River. For now. But no mater how hard we attempt to force the Mississippi to stay in its current channel, it will eventually shift. You can't cork a volcano and you can't control the flow of Mississippi.

http://www.tulane.edu/~bfleury/envirobio/enviroweb/FloodControl.htm

"As time progressed, it became increasingly apparent that the Mississippi was diverting more and more of its flow down the Atchafalaya River. In the 1950’s, engineers observed that the Mississippi would soon cease to inhabit its current channel as the mainstream, and instead migrate to the Atchafalaya River Basin. The path by which the Mississippi would migrate was a small stretch of water, named the “Old River”, that connected the Mississippi to the Red River. Old River was formed when Captain Henry Shreve dug a shortcut across the the neck of Turnbull’s Bend in 1831. The Mississippi abandoned its old course and took the shortcut provided by Old River. As a result, the Atchafalaya River received more and more discharge from the Mississippi. Discharge was also increased into the Atchafalaya in 1840, when a 30 mile long log jam was removed from its headwaters by the state of Louisiana. This increased discharge caused most of the problems the Army Corps of Engineers would have to face.

In their study of the Atchafalaya River, the USACE was able to deduce several possible effects of the diversion. The discharge of water into the current Mississippi channel would decrease until it resembled a bayou. All the levees along the previous Mississippi channel would no longer be needed to prevent flooding. In addition, towns such as Morgan City, located within the current Atchafalaya flood plain would be swept away by the newly expanded river. An expensive levee system would have to be built along the Atchafalaya in order to preserve current standards of flood control. The old Mississippi channel would no longer be able to be used for navigation by industry without expensive and extensive dredging. Industry would lack the water it needed to perform many of its processes such as cooling and the dumping of wastes. Agriculture would suffer from the lack irrigation water, and cities such as New Orleans would suffer economically from the lack of trade and drinking water. The only thing the diversion of the Atchafalaya promised to bring to society was disaster, and legislators decided to prevent this disaster at all costs.

The Army Corps of Engineers was given the job of maintaining the current distribution of water between the Lower Mississippi and the Atchafalaya River channels (70%-30%). They did so by building the Old River Flood Control Structure which consisted of massive floodgates that could be opened and closed as needed at the entrance to the Old River. This structure was completed in 1963. In 1973, a large flood tested the ORCS to its limits. Huge scour developed underneath the large steel pilings which anchored the structure to the river bottom. The structure was almost swept away, and emergency concrete was poured into the holes as a kind of large Band-Aid. After the '73 flood, the corps saw the need for a backup structure, and built the Old River Control Auxiliary Structure (ORCAS) to alleviate some of the pressure on the main control structure during large scale flooding.

Despite several close calls, the ORCS still manages to keep the Mississippi River in check. How long this will last, however, is a matter of opinion. The Army corps claims to have the situation in control; the Mississippi will not divert to the Atchafalaya as long as they are there to prevent it. However, what if the control structures necessary to prevent the Mississippi's diversion to the Atchafalaya River were completely undermined and swept away during a flood such as the one in 1973? The ORCS has almost failed in the face of the Mississippi's might before, and it could still do so. Can the Army corps withstand nature's might indefinitely, or will physics and the Mississippi River win out in the end?

Researcher Raphael Kazmann at LSU suggested that the Mississippi would be the victor in the struggle of man against nature. In his 1980 study on the possible effects of the Atchafalaya diversion he states, “Probably the most important single conclusion reached by this study is that in the long run the Atchafalaya will become the principal distributary of the Mississippi River and that the current main-stream will become an estuary of the Gulf of Mexico…the final outcome is only a matter of time” (Kazmann 1).

In addition to the flooding problem, engineers now face problems caused by the lack of flooding. The channelization produced by the levees and control structures deprives natural wetlands of the sediments normally deposited during flooding. Wetlands rely on sediments from distributaries and flooding to counteract subsidence, the compaction of sediments under their own weight. Water flows faster in subsidized areas, and distributaries can rapidly expand into wide channels, causing wetlands to disappear under the influx of water. The coastal marshes of Louisiana provide a natural barrier against the erosion causes by the fierce storms which often come from the Gulf. Because of the loss of these wetlands, the Louisiana coast has receded several thousands of feet over the past few decades, and commercial fishermen have also been deprived of a ready source of income. "

I grew up in Metairie; my mother, grandmother, uncle, and several friends still live there. I try to get back whenever I can - I'll always be 'home'. Same story as your brother - houses damaged, but not destroyed.

One other thing that I would like to point out to others - the responsibility of the individuals themselves. Everyone who has lived in New Orleans for any length of time knew exactly what the likely outcome would be of a category 4 or 5 hitting the city. The danger was public knowledge. I was not surprised in the least by what happened. It was pretty much exactly as I expected, just days before the storm hit. Granted, some people may not have had an easy way out of the city, but you have to acknowledge, in N.O., even most of the poor have cars. Perhaps they didn't have lots of money for hotel rooms, but many more could have saved their own lives had they chosen to. Part of the problem was a culture of relying on government, government that then failed at all levels to help them out. This also was not a shock to me.

However, my hat is off to the Coast Guard. They were flying the choppers with the rescue baskets almost as soon as the winds stopped. Too bad there were so few of them that it took many days to get to all the people on roof tops, but they at least did a 'heckuva' job.

One final thing, no matter how well the government could have reacted, it still would have been a day or so before releif really started rolling in. The hurricaine made half of the routes into the city impassable, and the others questionable. New Orleans is almost an island - most of the entry points are via bridge. Katrina destroyed some of them (most notable I-10 ove the lake) and it was not immediately known if the Causeway or I-10 over the spillway were structurally sound. Most points south were hit just as hard or harder than New Orleans. You can't keep all the relief supplies and equipment in the path of the storm, or you risk losing them too. Think school buses. The night before the storm, a volunteer firefighter friend of mine was busy helping to drive all the firetucks for his and other districts out of the area, so they wouldn't be lost to flood.

How to handle the situation is not as simple, clear, or easy when you've really thought through all of the permutations. People need to re-learn how to fend for themselves somewhat.

well said my friend.
i know it is politically incorrect to blame a black mayor for dropping the ball..so i wont...but years of living off the gov teet,conditioned people to exspect the gov to rescue them..and before everyone howls rascism...i think the same about the white folk that ignored the warnings..or were unable to leave..as well as the blacks and hispanics..point is..from first hand knowledge...the city dropped the ball,and many...white/black/latin who were use to being "taken care of by the state" perished when the state abandoned them..a lesson is here somewhere??
it is not a race thing,it is about exspecting the gov to take care of you...race is not the issue,,,stupidity and poverty are.

just to prove my point..at great exspense to me...i live on the beach..on the atlantic..and if they told me to evac..i would laugh and try to ride out the storm..so i am a dumb ass as well.

New Orleans was always on my top 5 places I want to see before I'm 30. I don't think I'll be going there any time soon now though:(

i don't like bush,or his admin..but to blame them is not fair...the fact that a year later things are not back to normal..maybe...but the actual events nightmares are to be blamed squarely on those at fault...the state and local authorities.


Neither the Mayor nor the Govenor actually had the authority to call in the needed help.
Not even Mike Brown the director of FEMA.

The blame so to speak, can be placed at the director of homeland security at the time.

He did not take action, until Nagins speech on the radio...(sept 1st?).

This was after the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were already on-scene.
(What does that tell us?)

Nagin only had so much power.
Hes a city Mayor, not the President.
He doesnt have the power to declare a national state of emergency.


You may be interested to know what certain officials were doing after Katrina hit:

Cheney: Fly-Fishing.

Rice: Shoe shopping.

Does that sound like concern to you, or fiddling while Rome burned?

Neither the Mayor nor the Govenor actually had the authority to call in the needed help.
Not even Mike Brown the director of FEMA.

The blame so to speak, can be placed at the director of homeland security at the time.

He did not take action, until Nagins speech on the radio...(sept 1st?).

This was after the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were already on-scene.
(What does that tell us?)

Nagin only had so much power.
Hes a city Mayor, not the President.
He doesnt have the power to declare a national state of emergency.


You may be interested to know what certain officials were doing after Katrina hit:

Cheney: Fly-Fishing.

Rice: Shoe shopping.

Does that sound like concern to you, or fiddling while Rome burned?
Well said. Don't forget Bush's trip to San Diego for a fund raising trip, and the subsequent hamming it up with a guitar for the cameras while New Orleans drowned. I've said it before--Nagin and Blanco did what they were supposed to do. They deployed the resources they had and called for the cavalry before the storm hit. That the cavalry took 5 days to get there is hardly their fault.

And Isiseye--go to New Orleans. It's worth it and it's still a lively city, lots of fun, and they can use the tourist dollar now more than ever.

Neither the Mayor nor the Govenor actually had the authority to call in the needed help.
Not even Mike Brown the director of FEMA.

Actually, yes they do have that authority to call in needed help. As does the Parish Commissioner.

The blame so to speak, can be placed at the director of homeland security at the time.

Some but not all.

He did not take action, until Nagins speech on the radio...(sept 1st?).

And what did Nagin do during the crisis?

This was after the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were already on-scene.
(What does that tell us?)

News to me.

Nagin only had so much power.
Hes a city Mayor, not the President.
He doesnt have the power to declare a national state of emergency.

No but he can declare a state of emergency inside his city.

You may be interested to know what certain officials were doing after Katrina hit:

Cheney: Fly-Fishing.

Rice: Shoe shopping.

Does that sound like concern to you, or fiddling while Rome burned?

:rolleyes:

Actually, yes they do have that authority to call in needed help. As does the Parish Commissioner.
And they called for it--before the storm hit. What part of those words don't you understand?

News to me.Why am I not surprised?



No but he can declare a state of emergency inside his city.He did.

:rolleyes:
Truth's a bitch when it fucks your guys, ain't it?

Actually, yes they do have that authority to call in needed help. As does the Parish Commissioner.

No, The mayor of New Orleans does not have to authority to call in the coast guard, or any other military forces that were needed.



Some but not all.

A huge chunk.



And what did Nagin do during the crisis?

Organized what rescources they did have, and pleaded for help on the air.
Ordered a mandatory evacuation.





No but he can declare a state of emergency inside his city.

Wich he did.



:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want, the truth of the matter is that relief efforts were SEVERELY bungled at the State, and Federal levels, and it that makes it Bush's problem.

Keep in mind that there (at the time) three disaster scenarios that the government were aware of.

Major Earthquake in San Franciso.
Major terrorist attack in NY.
Levees breaking in NO.

They knew it would happen.

Remember that nasty Tsunami a while ago?

Relief was there in 36 hours.

It took five days in NO.

And they called for it--before the storm hit. What part of those words don't you understand?

Do not take an attitude with me Nazz. I do not deserve it. The Federal Government can not do anything till after the fact. We already know that. First rule of rescue is to make sure you do not become a victim yourself. If you have your assets there inside the city, what do you think would be the consequences of that?

Why am I not surprised?

Uh? Excuse me if I did not keep up with what went were. I had a family member who flew relief supplies all over the devestated area. Other towns were hit far worse than New Orleans like Biloxi, Gulfport, and pascagoula Mississippi.

So what is your beef that I do not know that the RCMP was down there? Not everything gets reported and I had a lot going on during that time frame too like school. I was starting school around that time Nazz.

He did.

Yes I know he did but now we go back to what I said earlier. If you send in your supplies ahead of time and they are lost, what then? We are back to square one all over again.

Truth's a bitch when it fucks your guys, ain't it?

My guys?

Organized what rescources they did have, and pleaded for help on the air.

Complete bullshit.
http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/05/09/08/kat-buses.jpg

And this isn't even all of the buses he had available - and these were flooded two days after the storm hit.

Organized, my ass.

No, The mayor of New Orleans does not have to authority to call in the coast guard, or any other military forces that were needed.

Actually, the Coast Guard is also part of the City. They are always in those little emergency meetings. As to military forces, that was the Governors job when it comes to the National Guard. Unless of course you are saying that they do not count as military forces.

A huge chunk.

Not even a huge chunk. There is enough blame for everyone from Mayor Nagin to the Governor, on up to the federal level including the Presidency.

Organized what rescources they did have, and pleaded for help on the air.
Ordered a mandatory evacuation.

Nice job on the Mandatory evacuation. Right before the storm hit when they knew for a while that it was heading towards New Orleans. Why did they wait so long to issue a mandatory evacation? Why was the city's evac plan not instituted to assist in said evacuation?

Wich he did.

Yes he did. I have not said otherwise.

Roll your eyes all you want, the truth of the matter is that relief efforts were SEVERELY bungled at the State, and Federal levels, and it that makes it Bush's problem.

It is not his problem in regards to the bungling at the state level. That is the Governor's problem and not Bush's. I will agree that it is his problem at the federal level.

Keep in mind that there (at the time) three disaster scenarios that the government were aware of.

[quote]Major Earthquake in San Franciso.
Major terrorist attack in NY.
Levees breaking in NO.

They knew it would happen.

There is knowing about it and then doing something about it. The buildings in SF are being beefed up. As to a terror attack, only so much you can do to prevent that. As to the levees, if they were not shoddly constructed to begin with....or if LA actually decided to do something about it themselves as is their right...we would not have had as big a problem as we did

Remember that nasty Tsunami a while ago?

Relief was there in 36 hours.

It took five days in NO.

I also suggest you look at what was destroyed in and around NO. I also suggest you look at the rest of the devestated area. Not much could have gotten in and out for a few days.

I also suggest you look at what was destroyed in and around NO. I also suggest you look at the rest of the devestated area. Not much could have gotten in and out for a few days.


Not true at all.

Remember the RMCP was there helping within two days.

Also, there was a story about two teens who loaded up thier crappy car with bottles of water, and drove right into NO, and distributed the water.
This was on day three.
Well before any Federal help.

The thing to remember was that "officially"...no one was able to get in.
Yet, two kids with the desire to help...did.


There is knowing about it and then doing something about it. The buildings in SF are being beefed up. As to a terror attack, only so much you can do to prevent that. As to the levees, if they were not shoddly constructed to begin with....or if LA actually decided to do something about it themselves as is their right...we would not have had as big a problem as we did


This is also not true.

Seems that after NO's last big Hurricane in 65. (Betty), the levees were supposed to have been re-enforced to certain levels.
In some cases, construction had never even been completed.

After forty years.

Not even a huge chunk. There is enough blame for everyone from Mayor Nagin to the Governor, on up to the federal level including the Presidency.

Amen.

Nice job on the Mandatory evacuation. Right before the storm hit when they knew for a while that it was heading towards New Orleans. Why did they wait so long to issue a mandatory evacation? Why was the city's evac plan not instituted to assist in said evacuation?
It was a nice job, actually. 80% of the city got out. The best scenario planning had 60% getting out ahead of a major storm, and they blew that number out of the water. The contraflow evacuation plans for the bridges and highways worked like a fucking dream.

One thing is obvious about this whole scene--you don't know shit. You don't know what happened there, and you don't know the area. I grew up there. I've been back there recently. I have friends and family there right now. So back off on the shit you don't know.

It was a nice job, actually. 80% of the city got out. The best scenario planning had 60% getting out ahead of a major storm, and they blew that number out of the water. The contraflow evacuation plans for the bridges and highways worked like a fucking dream.

One thing is obvious about this whole scene--you don't know shit. You don't know what happened there, and you don't know the area. I grew up there. I've been back there recently. I have friends and family there right now. So back off on the shit you don't know.

See the pictures of the unused buses that sat dry for two days while Nagin begged for buses. Then the water came and made them useless.

It was in his plan to use those buses. A written plan drawn up between Nagin and the governor.

If he had used those buses, there would have been zero people at the Convention Center and Superdome.

See the pictures of the unused buses that sat dry for two days while Nagin begged for buses. Then the water came and made them useless.

It was in his plan to use those buses. A written plan drawn up between Nagin and the governor.

If he had used those buses, there would have been zero people at the Convention Center and Superdome.

1. Nagin didn't have anyone to drive them.

2. They didn't have anywhere to go.

3. Those buses would have only gotten a fraction of the people out of the Superdome and the Convention center, and many of the people there came after the storm passed, so those buses wouldn't have done those people any good regardless.

1. Nagin didn't have anyone to drive them.

2. They didn't have anywhere to go.

3. Those buses would have only gotten a fraction of the people out of the Superdome and the Convention center, and many of the people there came after the storm passed, so those buses wouldn't have done those people any good regardless.

600 buses is enough to move thousands of people.

He didn't have anyone to drive them because they ignored him. Great leadership there.

That goes right along his police force of deserters and looters (and I'm talking about the police).

It was a nice job, actually. 80% of the city got out. The best scenario planning had 60% getting out ahead of a major storm, and they blew that number out of the water. The contraflow evacuation plans for the bridges and highways worked like a fucking dream.

And yet, they could have gotten everyone else out that wanted to get out if they followed through on their plan to the letter. It is nice that they got 80% of the people out but most of those were the ones that could get out. What about those that could not? That was where the evac plan failed.

One thing is obvious about this whole scene--you don't know shit. You don't know what happened there, and you don't know the area. I grew up there. I've been back there recently. I have friends and family there right now. So back off on the shit you don't know.

Nice of you to tell me what I do and do not know. Tell me, is your ego that large that you have to talk down to others or do you just do it for kicks? It is annoying and makes you look like a jerk. I will render an opinion and I do not care if you agree with it or not. I do know what happened down there. I do know who got affected more by it. I do know that their evac plan was not followed. I do know that everyone is to blame. I do know more than you think I do. I do not care if you grew up there. That is irrelevent here.

What is funny is that no one in the other areas affected by Katrina had the problems that New Orleans did. Nearly everyone that did die in Katrina, died in New Orleans and they were not all that hard hit. Gulfport was destroyed. Literally blown off the map. I have seen far more devestation of low lying areas from past hurricanes and New Orleans does not even measure up to it. Maybe if you looked outside of New Orleans once and awhile, you will see that they were not the only victims of Hurricane Katrina. They were not even that hard hit and yet suffered more casualties than the areas that were the hardest hit.

So tell me, are you this egotistical or what?

Seems that after NO's last big Hurricane in 65. (Betty), the levees were supposed to have been re-enforced to certain levels.
In some cases, construction had never even been completed.

After forty years.

That's correct. Those levees were well built for the 1960's; there were four decades of engineering and metallurgical advancement that could have been used to upgrade the levees but zero progress was made during that time. This was a failure of the federal government and a failure of the representatives of Louisiana to acquire additional funding and get the process started.

Bennet Johnson (who sat on his ass for 25 years and did nothing about the levees), John Breaux (18 years of inaction), and Mary Landrieu (who did nothing for 8 years) all deserve blame for that failure.

That's correct. Those levees were well built for the 1960's; there were four decades of engineering and metallurgical advancement that could have been used to upgrade the levees but zero progress was made during that time. This was a failure of the federal government and a failure of the representatives of Louisiana to acquire additional funding and get the process started.

Both Bennet Johnson (who sat on his ass for 27 years and did nothing about the levees) and Mary Landrieu (who did nothing for 8 years) deserve blame for that failure.


Not to mention the mishmash of several distinct and often corrupt levee boards as part of the local government. It wasn't that long ago that they (the levee board!) spent over a million dollars on the Mardi Gras fountain on the lake front. And this is no more than a mile from where the levee on the 17th Street canal breached, which pretty much flooded everything in that area.