NationStates Jolt Archive

I've heard this claim time and again on ths forum, Western legislation (and specifically, of course, US legislation) is supposed to be based on the ten commandments.
I had a close look at those commandments, and maybe I'm too stupid to see it, but ...

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me - can anybody please point out where that's reflected in any western legislation?

2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above - again, I couldn't find a law against paintings, aculptures, photography or movies.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?

4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy - no working on Sundays? Where's that punishable?

5) Thou shalt honor your father and your mother - again, I haven't found a single law that forces kids to respect their parents...

6) Thou shalt not kill - in a moderated form, yes. Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery - No legaislation against that, as far as I can see.

8) Thou shalt not steal - Theft is illegal in Western legislation. Yes, there's a similarity here.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D

10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - Thought crime? I think not....


So, all in all, we've got one commandment that corresponds to actual laws, and one that is somewhat similar. 8 of the ten commandments have no legal bearing at all. There doesn't seem to be much common ground at all. So what are those claims based on?

Sometimes I covet my neighbors ass...

1. the Almighty Dollar...
"Wealth is your God"

2. Explicit Lyrics stickers.

3....

This is just too silly.

I've heard this claim time and again on ths forum, Western legislation (and specifically, of course, US legislation) is supposed to be based on the ten commandments.
I had a close look at those commandments, and maybe I'm too stupid to see it, but ...

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me - can anybody please point out where that's reflected in any western legislation?

2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above - again, I couldn't find a law against paintings, aculptures, photography or movies.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?

4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy - no working on Sundays? Where's that punishable?

5) Thou shalt honor your father and your mother - again, I haven't found a single law that forces kids to respect their parents...

6) Thou shalt not kill - in a moderated form, yes. Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery - No legaislation against that, as far as I can see.

8) Thou shalt not steal - Theft is illegal in Western legislation. Yes, there's a similarity here.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D

10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - Thought crime? I think not....


So, all in all, we've got one commandment that corresponds to actual laws, and one that is somewhat similar. 8 of the ten commandments have no legal bearing at all. There doesn't seem to be much common ground at all. So what are those claims based on?

In the USA they're based on the fiction that America was founded as a christian country. Evangelicals want to remove enlightenment ideas and values from American culture and replace them with the Christian country myth. That myth will better serve them when they try to enforce the laws of their religion with the coercive powers of the state.

Sometimes I covet my neighbors ass...

only sometimes? pfft...

only sometimes? pfft...

You don't know his neighbour, do you? :D

You don't know his neighbour, do you? :D

He doesn't know women.

There's a time of the month that coveting thy neighbors ass is definitely not recommended. ;)

He doesn't know women.

There's a time of the month that coveting thy neighbors ass is definitely not recommended. ;)

But there's no time of the month when it's illegal, is there? Dangerous, maybe. But illegal?

While I would never make claim that they are the basis of western law, they are an important moment in the history of law-giving, much as Hammurabi's Code, the Corpus Juris Civilis, Anglo-Saxon Common Law or the Napoleonic Code. It should be recognized as such.

Cthulhu-Mythos;11600034']1. the Almighty Dollar...
"Wealth is your God"

2. Explicit Lyrics stickers.

3....

This is just too silly.

I'll continue:

3. If you follow the path of Cthulu, he will eat you first.

But there's no time of the month when it's illegal, is there? Dangerous, maybe. But illegal?

It probably should be, due to risk of grievous bodily injury.

Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well."

Actually, the Western World vehemently opposes capital punishment. The US is the only Western nation to still have it... unless you count Japan as Western.

While I would never make claim that they are the basis of western law, they are an important moment in the history of law-giving, much as Hammurabi's Code, the Corpus Juris Civilis, Anglo-Saxon Common Law or the Napoleonic Code. It should be recognized as such.
Unlike the rest, this one has only MARGINAL value except to a very specific group.

Might as well champion that "Sha'ria" (or whatever the damn spelling) Islamic Law...

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?
In UK law.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail
Perjury, or I guess you could argue slander/libel/defamation.

So what are those claims based on?
In spite of which, yes, you're correct that I don't think modern Western penal codes reflect the 10 commandments. But then, are the claims that they do really that widespread?

While I would never make claim that they are the basis of western law, they are an important moment in the history of law-giving, much as Hammurabi's Code, the Corpus Juris Civilis, Anglo-Saxon Common Law or the Napoleonic Code. It should be recognized as such.


I've no problem with that. It is an important bit of legilative history no doubt. But it's hardly the direct basis of Western legislation, not even US American legislation...

Sure it is, just look at america. ;)

now that you point it out, it would suck to have our laws be based on the 10 commandments. the only ones that you can reasonably say we have adopted is "thou shalt not kill", "thou shalt not bear false witness (in court)" and "thou shalt not steal"

and, as you point out, they are heavily modified.

when i was a child in maine there were laws against having stores open on sunday and in the state of newmexico where i live now its illegal to sell booze before noon on sunday. those must come from "honor the sabbath". those laws are slowly being overturned.

In UK law.

Really? How quaint... do you have that piece of legislation online somewhere?


In spite of which, yes, you're correct that I don't think modern Western penal codes reflect the 10 commandments. But then, are the claims that they do really that widespread?

I don't have any links to any of those posts, but in my time on NS I came across that a number of times. I remember vivd discussions about he display of the ten commandments in US courtrooms, for example.

Cthulhu-Mythos;11600119']Unlike the rest, this one has only MARGINAL value except to a very specific group.

Might as well champion that "Sha'ria" (or whatever the damn spelling) Islamic Law...

Initially it had an impact on a very small region, but up until the reformation and the enlightenment it had tremendous impact on the laws of Catholic Europe. Since that time the Ten Commandments have fallen by the wayside in favor of Anglo-Saxon or Napoleonic sets. Even in light of that fact it's past impact is notable and cannot be forgotten.

I'd also allow Sharia, or however the hell it's spelled, to be considered as one of the great creations of law-giving. It counts.

when i was a child in maine there were laws against having stores open on sunday and in the state of newmexico where i live now its illegal to sell booze before noon on sunday. those must come from "honor the sabbath". those laws are slowly being overturned.

Exactly.
The South held up a Bible as proof that SLAVERY was a good idea.
The Bible is only as smart as the stupidest person quoting from it.

now that you point it out, it would suck to have our laws be based on the 10 commandments. the only ones that you can reasonably say we have adopted is "thou shalt not kill", "thou shalt not bear false witness (in court)" and "thou shalt not steal"

and, as you point out, they are heavily modified.

when i was a child in maine there were laws against having stores open on sunday and in the state of newmexico where i live now its illegal to sell booze before noon on sunday. those must come from "honor the sabbath". those laws are slowly being overturned.

They're called "blue laws". In New Jersey I think Bergen county requires stores to close on Sunday and there is talk of repealing that law. Also NJ liquor stores, but not bars, are required to close early on Sunday. This violates my religious rights as a devout Alcoholic.

While I would never make claim that they are the basis of western law, they are an important moment in the history of law-giving, much as Hammurabi's Code, the Corpus Juris Civilis, Anglo-Saxon Common Law or the Napoleonic Code. It should be recognized as such.

The Mosaic Law as a whole, maybe. The Ten Commandments themselves, not really.

They're called "blue laws". In New Jersey I think Bergen county requires stores to close on Sunday and there is talk of repealing that law. Also NJ liquor stores, but not bars, are required to close early on Sunday. This violates my religious rights as a devout Alcoholic.

Sunday's the first day of the week, not the seventh day referenced by the verse.

The simple answer: Some people are more concerned with getting their way than facts. Is anyone suprised by this?

In the USA they're based on the fiction that America was founded as a christian country.
But it is! Stephen Colbert has said so on various occasions, so it must be true! :D

As for the commandments not directly concerning God and worshipping Him - those are basically the rules you'd have to follow to render living in a community preacefully possible, it's as easy as that.

Sunday's the first day of the week, not the seventh day referenced by the verse.

It's not my job to teach Christians how to use a calendar.

It's not my job to teach Christians how to use a calendar.

I just find it amusing how so many of them are obsessed with the Ten Commandments when their own religion "updated" some of them.

I've heard this claim time and again on ths forum, Western legislation (and specifically, of course, US legislation) is supposed to be based on the ten commandments.
I had a close look at those commandments, and maybe I'm too stupid to see it, but ... this looks like a fun challange... let me put on my fundie hat... (aarrrghh... too small... must remove most of brain.... there) :D

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me - can anybody please point out where that's reflected in any western legislation?
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

of the many interpretations of this line, one meaning is clear. the Goverment cannot say "worship this religion/government" which in effect, is "not having other Gods before Me." thus making religion a choice.


2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above - again, I couldn't find a law against paintings, aculptures, photography or movies. actually, most say "Do not worship craven/false Idols." back to Amendment 1 which also prevents the Government from proclaiming itself a religion.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?decency laws. and there are laws as to what you can/cannot say (profanity wise) on broadcast media.

4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy - no working on Sundays? Where's that punishable?that is reflected on Labor Laws that place limitations as to what is expected of workers with and without extra compensation.

5) Thou shalt honor your father and your mother - again, I haven't found a single law that forces kids to respect their parents...another one that isn't in the constitution... but the laws that place the responsiblity and privliages of children into the hands of their parents.

6) Thou shalt not kill - in a moderated form, yes. Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well. Most translations have it as Murder. big difference.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery - No legaislation against that, as far as I can see.I believe Polygamy is against Federal Laws and there are Civil laws against it. It is a legally solid grounds for devorce as well as lawsuits.

8) Thou shalt not steal - Theft is illegal in Western legislation. Yes, there's a similarity here.agreed

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D Purjury Laws. Slander laws...

10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - Thought crime? I think not....this can be mirrored with those conspircy... laws as well as the attempts... like Conspiracy to committ... or attempted murder/theft etc.


So, all in all, we've got one commandment that corresponds to actual laws, and one that is somewhat similar. 8 of the ten commandments have no legal bearing at all. There doesn't seem to be much common ground at all. So what are those claims based on?well, it depends on your definition of laws... Federal, state, or amendments...


now, that was fun... but I need most of my brain back so... *removes fundie cap* ahh... much better.

The simple answer: Some people are more concerned with getting their way than facts. Is anyone suprised by this?

Sorry i don't understand what you mean.

Thanks for making me loose the game!

Sorry i don't understand what you mean.

Thanks for making me loose the game!

It doesn't really matter if the 10 commandments are the basis for western law, christian fundies will say they are in order to lobby the government to make pro-christian/anti-everyone else laws.

Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Well, in one sense you're right. The laws of most countries are not direct translations from the Ten Commandments. However, as Christians see it, "From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind humans of them. This was the Decalogue" (st. Irenaeus). Thus, the laws that establish civil rights, social norms, and human dignity are reflections of God's commandments only written in the hearts and minds of the people and not on stone tablets. :eek:

Jerassia;11600273']Well, in one sense you're right. The laws of most countries are not direct translations from the Ten Commandments. However, as Christians see it, "From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind humans of them. This was the Decalogue" (st. Irenaeus). Thus, the laws that establish civil rights, social norms, and human dignity are reflections of God's commandments only written in the hearts and minds of the people and not on stone tablets. :eek:

Then how come that current legislation in most Western countries doesn't reflect the decalogue? If that's what's "implanted in the heart of man" I would expect more than 2 highly modified similarities...

this looks like a fun challange... let me put on my fundie hat... (aarrrghh... too small... must remove most of brain.... there) :D


Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

of the many interpretations of this line, one meaning is clear. the Goverment cannot say "worship this religion/government" which in effect, is "not having other Gods before Me." thus making religion a choice.

If the first commandment was the basis of that, legislation should not allow religion to be a choice, though.


actually, most say "Do not worship craven/false Idols." back to Amendment 1 which also prevents the Government from proclaiming itself a religion.

Again, legislation that is in no way based on the ten commandments


decency laws. and there are laws as to what you can/cannot say (profanity wise) on broadcast media.

I seem to remember that most of those profanities do not have (or maybe no longer have) any religious connotations... as far as I know you can say "goddammit" as often as you like. Otherwise any episode of South Park would be largely beeps.


that is reflected on Labor Laws that place limitations as to what is expected of workers with and without extra compensation.

Granted, we do have the 7-day-week, which is of Judeo-Christian origin. However, it's quite normal for people to work on Sundays and have a day of during the week instead. Nobody in their right minds would force a hospital to close for Sundays


another one that isn't in the constitution... but the laws that place the responsiblity and privliages of children into the hands of their parents.

That's right, legislation provides the children with rights, not the parents. This commandment has been completely inverted by modern Western legislation.


Most translations have it as Murder. big difference.

My German bible says "kill", and the three online translation I used for this thread said "kill" as well.
I don't speak Hebrew, but I was recently assured that the word used can translate both as "kill" and as "murder", particularly since the concept of "murder" in the modern sense was unknown when the bible was written.


I believe Polygamy is against Federal Laws and there are Civil laws against it. It is a legally solid grounds for devorce as well as lawsuits.

Polygamy is not adultery, though. In the biblical sense, adultery refers to sex outside of marriage, either before marriage or with someone who is not your spouse. Neither of which is illegal today.
And do you really still need a justification for divorce? I thought those days were thankfully long gone....


Purjury Laws. Slander laws...

Granted, although that's modified greatly, too.


this can be mirrored with those conspircy... laws as well as the attempts... like Conspiracy to committ... or attempted murder/theft etc.

Conspiracy would be punishable in the US? I didn't know that... so people there can get punished for the mere intention to commit a crime? Say, someone walking into a bank with a gun and the intention to rob said bank, but changes his mind in the last minute would still be guilty of a crime? :eek:
Scary.

And an attempt is an act that failed for whatever reason. It's beyond intention.


well, it depends on your definition of laws... Federal, state, or amendments...

I wasn't looking at the US in particular (although most of the "the ten commandments are the basis of our laws" seem to come from there) but at Western legislation on the whole. Most Western countries have very similar basic laws regarding human interaction


now, that was fun... but I need most of my brain back so... *removes fundie cap* ahh... much better.

Hehe... thanks for playing :D

*puts Fundie Cap back on* damn.. it shrank... need to remove more brain to make it fit...
If the first commandment was the basis of that, legislation should not allow religion to be a choice, though. true, but remember, USA (the only country I can speak for)was founded by those who believed in the Christian God. so it was worded with that in mind. there was no other religion.

Again, legislation that is in no way based on the ten commandments sure it is. again, you're assuming that there are other religions.

I seem to remember that most of those profanities do not have (or maybe no longer have) any religious connotations... as far as I know you can say "goddammit" as often as you like. Otherwise any episode of South Park would be largely beeps.and remember when the law was written. at that time, "God Damn" was the same as "God Damn Cock Sucking mother fucking skank ho" is now.

Granted, we do have the 7-day-week, which is of Judeo-Christian origin. However, it's quite normal for people to work on Sundays and have a day of during the week instead. Nobody in their right minds would force a hospital to close for Sundaysand where does it say that SUNDAY is the Seventh day?

That's right, legislation provides the children with rights, not the parents. This commandment has been completely inverted by modern Western legislation.nope, Discipline (escpecially back then) was totally up to the parents. not the Government. back then, you never heard of Child Abuse.

My German bible says "kill", and the three online translation I used for this thread said "kill" as well. I don't speak Hebrew, but I was recently assured that the word used can translate both as "kill" and as "murder", particularly since the concept of "murder" in the modern sense was unknown when the bible was written. I did a tally once... let me go through it again

"Murder" [13]
New International Version
The New American Standard Version
The Message
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
Young's Literal Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Reader's Version
New International Version - UK
Today's New International Version


"Kill" [5]
King James Version
21st Century King James Version
American Standard Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation

and these are only the English Transations.

Polygamy is not adultery, though. In the biblical sense, adultery refers to sex outside of marriage, either before marriage or with someone who is not your spouse. Neither of which is illegal today.
And do you really still need a justification for divorce? I thought those days were thankfully long gone....well, if you only set it outside of marriage, (and again, I can only speak for the US, I can't speak for other countries... especially with this tight fundie cap on..) pandering is illegal in most states.


Granted, although that's modified greatly, too.
Not really, bearing false witness is Purjury. doing so outside of the courtroom can fall under slander.


Conspiracy would be punishable in the US? I didn't know that... so people there can get punished for the mere intention to commit a crime? Say, someone walking into a bank with a gun and the intention to rob said bank, but changes his mind in the last minute would still be guilty of a crime? :eek: for your example? depends on gun laws, carrying concealed, or even w/o a licence. for Conspiracy, say you were here, and you want to kill your boy friend... so you talk to someone about planning his death, even to the point of hiring someone to do the deed. that's conspiracy to commit murder.

And an attempt is an act that failed for whatever reason. It's beyond intention.a failed attempt, while not completed is still one that was thought about.


I wasn't looking at the US in particular (although most of the "the ten commandments are the basis of our laws" seem to come from there) but at Western legislation on the whole. Most Western countries have very similar basic laws regarding human interactionwell, I cannot speak for any other country. and frankly, I don't think they want me to. :p



Hehe... thanks for playing :Dhey, I had fun limiting my thinking... tho I really shouldn't be doing this too often...

err... my cap is stuck... just a minute....

err... cabra... my fundie cap is stuck... can you help me pull this thing off? :(

I seem to remember that most of those profanities do not have (or maybe no longer have) any religious connotations... as far as I know you can say "goddammit" as often as you like. Otherwise any episode of South Park would be largely beeps.


Profanity laws in general derive from that commandment. It's why things like fuck and shit are bleeped.


Granted, we do have the 7-day-week, which is of Judeo-Christian origin. However, it's quite normal for people to work on Sundays and have a day of during the week instead. Nobody in their right minds would force a hospital to close for Sundays


Another highly modified thing, because modern times require changes. It basically comes down to the fact that everyone should get one or two days off.


That's right, legislation provides the children with rights, not the parents. This commandment has been completely inverted by modern Western legislation.


Children have no adult rights - they are solely the charges of their parents. The parents in this setup do, however, have a grave amount of responsibility.


My German bible says "kill", and the three online translation I used for this thread said "kill" as well.
I don't speak Hebrew, but I was recently assured that the word used can translate both as "kill" and as "murder", particularly since the concept of "murder" in the modern sense was unknown when the bible was written.


Another change to reflect the change in times. If you read the Bible, there are numerous places where killing people for reasonable justifications is morally correct. Murder - usually born from people coveting their neighbors things in Old Testament stories - is frowned upon.


Polygamy is not adultery, though. In the biblical sense, adultery refers to sex outside of marriage, either before marriage or with someone who is not your spouse. Neither of which is illegal today.
And do you really still need a justification for divorce? I thought those days were thankfully long gone....


No, but adultery is adultery, which the original poster was obviously referring to in his second sentence.

Also, I find it odd that you feel people should be able to get divorced with absolutely no justification, but that's another debate for another time.


Conspiracy would be punishable in the US? I didn't know that... so people there can get punished for the mere intention to commit a crime? Say, someone walking into a bank with a gun and the intention to rob said bank, but changes his mind in the last minute would still be guilty of a crime? :eek:
Scary.


Conspiracy, as far as I know, is punishable everywhere. The legal definition is three or more people seriously plotting a crime; if the authorities can gain evidence of that, they can prosecute the case. How else would you punish, say, a terrorist cell that was caught while planning their next attack but had not yet gone through with it?

I'd also imagine the idiot with the gun in your example would get off scott-free if no one in the building knew he had a gun.


And an attempt is an act that failed for whatever reason. It's beyond intention.


True, but it's related.

Also, stuff I didn't quote and reply to, I felt you were spot-on about. :)

err... cabra... my fundie cap is stuck... can you help me pull this thing off? :(


*pulls...

Maybe we need to deflate your head even more?

*pulls...

Maybe we need to deflate your head even more?

*tear... snap*

Ahh... that's better... thanks...

*tosses torn Fundie cap.* thank goodness... I hate having that much unused space in my head...

*puts Fundie Cap back on* damn.. it shrank... need to remove more brain to make it fit...
true, but remember, USA (the only country I can speak for)was founded by those who believed in the Christian God. so it was worded with that in mind. there was no other religion.


sure it is. again, you're assuming that there are other religions.

So they made no legislation because it was unthinkable to them anyway?


and where does it say that SUNDAY is the Seventh day?

I think "keep the Sabbath holy", with the Sabbath being the 7th day of the week, is pretty clear


nope, Discipline (escpecially back then) was totally up to the parents. not the Government. back then, you never heard of Child Abuse.

Still, I see no legislation around even attempting to force kids to respect their parents...


I did a tally once... let me go through it again

"Murder" [13]
New International Version
The New American Standard Version
The Message
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
Young's Literal Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Reader's Version
New International Version - UK
Today's New International Version


"Kill" [5]
King James Version
21st Century King James Version
American Standard Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation

and these are only the English Transations.

It might be good to go back to the original then... obviously a mere translation can change something as important and straightforward as a commandment, depending on the interpretation of the translator...


well, if you only set it outside of marriage, (and again, I can only speak for the US, I can't speak for other countries... especially with this tight fundie cap on..) pandering is illegal in most states.

Ah... I forgot. Prostitution is illegal in most parts of the US, isn't it? I'll have to find out in how many Western countries it is still illegal...


Not really, bearing false witness is Purjury. doing so outside of the courtroom can fall under slander.

Purjury is false witness under special circumstances. And I'm not too familiar with slander laws... I know they exist, but I can't think of any case they applied to right now.


for your example? depends on gun laws, carrying concealed, or even w/o a licence. for Conspiracy, say you were here, and you want to kill your boy friend... so you talk to someone about planning his death, even to the point of hiring someone to do the deed. that's conspiracy to commit murder.

a failed attempt, while not completed is still one that was thought about.

But by attempting you're going one step further than just planning. And while talking about killing someone can be regarded as conspiracy, hiring someone to kill someone is an active step towards seeing that person dead. That's no longer just planning.

*tear... snap*

Ahh... that's better... thanks...

*tosses torn Fundie cap.* thank goodness... I hate having that much unused space in my head...


Hehe... ok, you'd better not shove it back on to reply to my last post, then.

Profanity laws in general derive from that commandment. It's why things like fuck and shit are bleeped.

Fuck and shit have nothing whatsoever to do with god's name.

...

No, but adultery is adultery, which the original poster was obviously referring to in his second sentence.

Also, I find it odd that you feel people should be able to get divorced with absolutely no justification, but that's another debate for another time.

They don't need any justification to get married, why should they need one to get divorced?


Conspiracy, as far as I know, is punishable everywhere. The legal definition is three or more people seriously plotting a crime; if the authorities can gain evidence of that, they can prosecute the case. How else would you punish, say, a terrorist cell that was caught while planning their next attack but had not yet gone through with it?

I'd also imagine the idiot with the gun in your example would get off scott-free if no one in the building knew he had a gun.

I would imagine that if you can find hard evidence, the stage of "planning" was left behind and the stage of "preparing" had been reached. Preparation of a crime can be punishable. Planning can't.

*Looks at shredded fundie cap...*
:headbang:
[woozy] ok... let's continue...
So they made no legislation because it was unthinkable to them anyway? how can anyone legislate something they don't forsee?

I think "keep the Sabbath holy", with the Sabbath being the 7th day of the week, is pretty clear and when does the week start. for one company I worked for, it started on Sunday, for another, it's Monday. for the current company I work for, it's Saturday... so the Seventh day would be either Saturday, Sunday or even Friday... as long as you keep the seventh one holy...

wait. that made too much sense... :headbang:

Still, I see no legislation around even attempting to force kids to respect their parents...because back in those days, and remember when the US constitution was made, Parents had a better sense of responsiblity back then. they didn't blame someone else for every little thing, neither did they expect the government to raise their children. actually, no laws were made to enforce it. but the proof is actually the lack of laws concerning child abuse, child labor...

children back then were well behaved... because childhood wasn't as funfilled as they are now...


It might be good to go back to the original then... obviously a mere translation can change something as important and straightforward as a commandment, depending on the interpretation of the translator... Unfortunatly, that would be the dead sea scrolls.

wait... whoops... need to :headbang: there... what was I... oh. yeah... OUR BIBLES ARE TRUE AND ACCURATE, it's your heretic books that are wrong!



Ah... I forgot. Prostitution is illegal in most parts of the US, isn't it? I'll have to find out in how many Western countries it is still illegal... :headbang: ITS A SIN AND ALL HOOKERS MUST BE BURNED!


Purjury is false witness under special circumstances. And I'm not too familiar with slander laws... I know they exist, but I can't think of any case they applied to right now.PURJURY IS... ahem... sorry... Purjury is lying under oath. there is no special circumstances. also, calling in false police/Fire/Ambulance is also illegal here (which can fall under bearing false witness.)



But by attempting you're going one step further than just planning. And while talking about killing someone can be regarded as conspiracy, hiring someone to kill someone is an active step towards seeing that person dead. That's no longer just planning.but it's still planning.

:headbang: :headbang: wait... that was it... I think I need to lie down now... I got a wicked headache...

Fuck and shit have nothing whatsoever to do with god's name.


Profanity is profanity according to western law. While most profanity laws are, at best, iffy and at worst down-right retarded, doesn't change the fact that this is a precursor to them.


They don't need any justification to get married, why should they need one to get divorced?


While two complete strangers are within their rights to marry, marriage is usually justified by either economic reasons, love or both. I agree, though, if people just get married for the hell of it, a divorce should be relatively simple and without any justification.


I would imagine that if you can find hard evidence, the stage of "planning" was left behind and the stage of "preparing" had been reached. Preparation of a crime can be punishable. Planning can't.

What about sketches or photographs of a target used to aid planning? Those kinds of things will get you in hot water, too.

I would imagine that if you can find hard evidence, the stage of "planning" was left behind and the stage of "preparing" had been reached. Preparation of a crime can be punishable. Planning can't.*while lying on the ground.*
point in fact. an Airline pilot was arrested and fired when, after 9/11 while he was going through security he asked, very calmly, "Why are you worried about me having a gun when I can just fly the plane into the ground?"

he didn't plan anything, he stated what he thought and that was enough for him to be grounded.

Gotta look for the link...

\
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D


Perjury/trade libel/slander, etc.

Not that I think the Law is as simple as the Commandments, but this one does apply, so long as "false witness" is considered.

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me - can anybody please point out where that's reflected in any western legislation?
Herecy.. :p
2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above - again, I couldn't find a law against paintings, aculptures, photography or movies.
Classified documents!
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?
Herecy!
4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy - no working on Sundays? Where's that punishable?
Liquor stores.
5) Thou shalt honor your father and your mother - again, I haven't found a single law that forces kids to respect their parents...
Bleh, who knows..
6) Thou shalt not kill - in a moderated form, yes. Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well.
Ok, I'll let you answer that!
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery - No legaislation against that, as far as I can see.
Clinton..
8) Thou shalt not steal - Theft is illegal in Western legislation. Yes, there's a similarity here.
And.. what's the term for when you.. embezeling?
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D
You can sue a newspaper for.. I forget the term..
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - Thought crime? I think not....
Dunno.

I've no problem with that. It is an important bit of legilative history no doubt. But it's hardly the direct basis of Western legislation, not even US American legislation...
Correct. It's an influence, but not the basis. You should also know that Christianity doesn't approve capital punishment. I think Judaism and Islam do, but not Christianity.

Correct. It's an influence, but not the basis. You should also know that Christianity doesn't approve capital punishment. I think Judaism and Islam do, but not Christianity.

What about hell?

You do something wrong, you go to hell.

*shrugs*

I've heard this claim time and again on ths forum, Western legislation (and specifically, of course, US legislation) is supposed to be based on the ten commandments.
I had a close look at those commandments, and maybe I'm too stupid to see it, but ...

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me - can anybody please point out where that's reflected in any western legislation?

2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above - again, I couldn't find a law against paintings, aculptures, photography or movies.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?

4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy - no working on Sundays? Where's that punishable?

5) Thou shalt honor your father and your mother - again, I haven't found a single law that forces kids to respect their parents...

6) Thou shalt not kill - in a moderated form, yes. Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery - No legaislation against that, as far as I can see.

8) Thou shalt not steal - Theft is illegal in Western legislation. Yes, there's a similarity here.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D

10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - Thought crime? I think not....


So, all in all, we've got one commandment that corresponds to actual laws, and one that is somewhat similar. 8 of the ten commandments have no legal bearing at all. There doesn't seem to be much common ground at all. So what are those claims based on?

3) There are anti-blasphemy laws in the UK. While they are law, they are rarely enforced. They were going to get rid of them but from what I understand, they were going to extend it to all religions and Blair wasn't able to get enough votes in the House of Commons. Someone correct me if I misunderstood what happened with that one. It is still a crime in Germany. They had people go the Madonna concert in Düsseldorf to make sure her concert was commiting blasphemy.

4) It is illegal in Germany to work on Sundays. Some things are allowed to remain open, petrol stations, restaurants, etc., but most shops can't open. It's more the unions and Social Democrats behind that rather than Christian groups. Many larger businesses would like to be able to open on Sundays. It is a bit frustrating if you are working a lot in the week and you have shopping to do because everything closes at 8pm the rest of the week. At least here in the UK, you can go shopping on Sundays, even if there are reduced hours.

6) Well, doesn't it also say in the Bible "If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death." (Leviticus 24:17) so I would think that if you take a literal reading of the Bible, it certainty back the capital punishment. There are many references in the Bible to military service therefore I would think that war is exempt from killing. There are many places in the Bible that talk about accidental death, Exodus 21:13,28-32, Numbers 35:11-15,22-28,32, Deuteronomy 4:41-43. I would think self-defence would fall under accidental death.

7) Most places in the West is considered grounds for divorce. Apparently, it is illegal in Virginia and Arizona as well. http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20031216.html
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4657709&nav=menu216_3_5

9) While it's not illegal for the most part to spread rumours, it is illegal to do it a court of law and in some places, it's illegal to do it in the press or the media, which is called slander and libel depending on what form it is in.

What about hell?

You do something wrong, you go to hell.

*shrugs*
Humans don't send anyone to "hell", God does. It's not capital punishment.
The Christian interpretation is "Thou shalt not kill", the Muslim version says "Thou shalt not kill one who has not committed murder or other serious sin".

3) There are anti-blasphemy laws in the UK. While they are law, they are rarely enforced. They were going to get rid of them but from what I understand, they were going to extend it to all religions and Blair wasn't able to get enough votes in the House of Commons. Someone correct me if I misunderstood what happened with that one. It is still a crime in Germany. They had people go the Madonna concert in Düsseldorf to make sure her concert was commiting blasphemy.

Blasphemy is no crime in Germany. You can swear all you want on TV, explicit lyrics tend to be a lot more explicit that, say, in the US. And that's the first thing I ever heard about Madonna in Duesseldorf. Who had people go there? Who's they? Any links to prove that claim?


4) It is illegal in Germany to work on Sundays. Some things are allowed to remain open, petrol stations, restaurants, etc., but most shops can't open. It's more the unions and Social Democrats behind that rather than Christian groups. Many larger businesses would like to be able to open on Sundays. It is a bit frustrating if you are working a lot in the week and you have shopping to do because everything closes at 8pm the rest of the week. At least here in the UK, you can go shopping on Sundays, even if there are reduced hours.

It's not illegal to work on Sundays in Germany. I worked on Sundays in Germany. The only people who are not allowed to work on Sundays are shop assistants, apparently.
I used to work in a library, which was of course open on Sundays. I used to work ass a cleaning woman and worked Sundays. I used to work in a factory and worked Sundays. I used to work at a cinema and worked Sundays. My mother's a nurse and works Sundays. A friend of mine drives a taxi and works on Sundays. Busses will go on Sundays, TV and radio will be on on Sundays, electricity will be supplied on Sundays. There's no law against working on Sundays in Germany.


7) Most places in the West is considered grounds for divorce. Apparently, it is illegal in Virginia and Arizona as well. http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20031216.html
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4657709&nav=menu216_3_5

Most places in the West don't need grounds for divorce any more.


9) While it's not illegal for the most part to spread rumours, it is illegal to do it a court of law and in some places, it's illegal to do it in the press or the media, which is called slander and libel depending on what form it is in.

So it's illegal for some in special circumstances. It's highly modified...

Humans don't send anyone to "hell", God does. It's not capital punishment.
The Christian interpretation is "Thou shalt not kill", the Muslim version says "Thou shalt not kill one who has not committed murder or other serious sin".

Oh, I was comparing prison to hell.

Don't mind me, I'm not quite awake yet.

Really? How quaint... do you have that piece of legislation online somewhere?
No, but then I'm not sure it works like that in common law. This Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_the_United_Kingdom) is quite informative, though.

Blasphemy is no crime in Germany. You can swear all you want on TV, explicit lyrics tend to be a lot more explicit that, say, in the US. And that's the first thing I ever heard about Madonna in Duesseldorf. Who had people go there? Who's they? Any links to prove that claim?

Sure thing, from what I understand it is just applies to blasphemy, not the use of foul language.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5269684.stm

It's not illegal to work on Sundays in Germany. I worked on Sundays in Germany. The only people who are not allowed to work on Sundays are shop assistants, apparently.
I used to work in a library, which was of course open on Sundays. I used to work ass a cleaning woman and worked Sundays. I used to work in a factory and worked Sundays. I used to work at a cinema and worked Sundays. My mother's a nurse and works Sundays. A friend of mine drives a taxi and works on Sundays. Busses will go on Sundays, TV and radio will be on on Sundays, electricity will be supplied on Sundays. There's no law against working on Sundays in Germany.

It's illegal to work for some people, while I stated that it is not extended to everyone. It does exist. Lorry drivers, except those transporting things that will spoil quickly such as fresh milk, are not to drive for instance. My fiancée won't even run the washing machine or dryer on Sundays worrying someone will complain about the noise. If that amount of noise isn't allow, certainly DIY and other heavy cleaning wouldn't be allowed. I even said you had petrol stations and restaurants open on Sundays in my previous post.


So it's illegal for some in special circumstances. It's highly modified...

Yes, but it still exists in some form. It is hard to prove you said something nasty about one neighbour to another neighbour. It would be one person's word versus another, I don't know how one could enforce such a law, therefore, it is extended to the forms where that it can be proved more easily.

3) There are anti-blasphemy laws in the UK. While they are law, they are rarely enforced. They were going to get rid of them but from what I understand, they were going to extend it to all religions and Blair wasn't able to get enough votes in the House of Commons. Someone correct me if I misunderstood what happened with that one. It is still a crime in Germany. They had people go the Madonna concert in Düsseldorf to make sure her concert was commiting blasphemy.


I think you're mistaking Germany with the Netherlands. A Dutch political party, called the SGP, tried to ban Madonna from performing in Amsterdam. In this country, freedom of religion goes above any other freedom more or less. The SGP has a voter base of approx. 300,000 and they're for example against universal suffrage. (and they used to be subsidized by the Dutch state until a few months ago) Blasphemy is still a crime in the Netherlands, although rarely enforced. One need to actually report it to the police, and hope the cops won't tell them to fuck off, because they still have some armed robbers to go after. The SGP however, has already vowed to send a couple of members to the Madonna gig to see if Madonna will act in a blasphemous way on stage.

You should also know that Christianity doesn't approve capital punishment.

These days, the Catholic Church doesn't, but it still approves of killing in a just war, and lots of other Christians have no problem with the death penalty. The verse means "thou shalt not murder" and pretty much everyone ultimately interprets it that way (except for radical pacifists.)

I think Judaism and Islam do, but not Christianity.

Rabbinic Judaism is very reluctantly approving of the death penalty.

I think you're mistaking Germany with the Netherlands. A Dutch political party, called the SGP, tried to ban Madonna from performing in Amsterdam. In this country, freedom of religion goes above any other freedom more or less. The SGP has a voter base of approx. 300,000 and they're for example against universal suffrage. (and they used to be subsidized by the Dutch state until a few months ago) Blasphemy is still a crime in the Netherlands, although rarely enforced. One need to actually report it to the police, and hope the cops won't tell them to fuck off, because they still have some armed robbers to go after. The SGP however, has already vowed to send a couple of members to the Madonna gig to see if Madonna will act in a blasphemous way on stage.

I didn't hear about the incident in the Netherlands, but it did happen in Germany as well.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2138099,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-all-1124-rdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4797151.stm
I think they decided it was a political statement rather than insulting religion, therefore wasn't a breach of the German blasphemy laws.

These days, the Catholic Church doesn't, but it still approves of killing in a just war, and lots of other Christians have no problem with the death penalty. The verse means "thou shalt not murder" and pretty much everyone ultimately interprets it that way (except for radical pacifists.)Depends in its entirety of the translation.

I've seen both kill and murder used, though murder only in some english translations - In my native language it has explicitly been don't kill. Probably has something to do with the source of translation: Hardliner fire & brimstone puritan vs more evangelical protestant.

Not that I give a damn about the so called "teachings" of Bible

I used to covet my niegbors ass, then they started raising goats, and thats just plain nasty.

He doesn't know women.

There's a time of the month that coveting thy neighbors ass is definitely not recommended. ;)


As long as he isn't living in san fran he should be ok.

I've heard this claim time and again on ths forum, Western legislation (and specifically, of course, US legislation) is supposed to be based on the ten commandments.
I had a close look at those commandments, and maybe I'm too stupid to see it, but ...

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me - can anybody please point out where that's reflected in any western legislation?

Well, a lot of Senators have been saying that if you challenge GWB then you're "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." i.e. You shouldn't have any other ideas that he doesn't put in your head.

2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above - again, I couldn't find a law against paintings, aculptures, photography or movies.

Efforts to ban violent video games and sexy music?

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain - laws against swearing? Really? Where?

Well, a lot of people think that this means that you shouldn't say things like "God Dammit" or "Oh Jesus Christ!" It actually means that instead of saying "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" you should use some sort of pronoun like "Adonoi" or "God." So I guess that whole "no prayer in schools" thing that the conservatives say the liberals are trying to do might count.

The problem with the whole idea of this stricture is that whatever you call God becomes the name of God. That's why we capitalize it, and some morons type G-d instead of God so that they won't "blaspheme."

It's a bit like the cycle of words coming to mean Penis. People get prudish and don't want to say "penis." So instead they call it a common guys name (like Dick) or an inherently male animal (like a cock).

Then when people relax, they thinks it's funny that Dick and Cock mean penis, and then when they get prudish again, you're not allowed to say cock or dick because they both mean penis.

4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy - no working on Sundays? Where's that punishable?

There are some places, yes. But not really the US in general because our real religion is money.

5) Thou shalt honor your father and your mother - again, I haven't found a single law that forces kids to respect their parents...

Well, it largely means that you should do what they tell you. And until you're an adult, you're pretty much supposed to. Of course, no non-Christian group expects children to defer to parents, right?

It's also worth noting that the NT says "no man who hateth not his father and mother may be with me." So the only philosphies that are activly anti-family are Christianity and Leninism.

6) Thou shalt not kill - in a moderated form, yes. Western legislation basically seems to say "don't kill unless you're on a military campaign, or defending yourself". Well, and exempt capital punishment as well.

And again, only Christians think that murder is wrong, right?

The funny thing is that the most noisily Christian politicians are usually the most pro-death penalty. When one of them was asked to resolve the contradiction between being pro-Christ and pro-death he said "these are horrible people who've commited horrible crimes." Because of course, the Bible quote is "Thou shalt not kill lest thou dost feel like it and the prick was a right bastard."

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery - No legaislation against that, as far as I can see.

It's part of divorce law. Of course the meaning of "adultery" tends to be culture-dependent. Like how we think sodomy means butt-sex, but can mean anything as harmless as girl on top.

8) Thou shalt not steal - Theft is illegal in Western legislation. Yes, there's a similarity here.

Of course, it's illegal in every other civilization as well.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbour - Outlawing spreading rumours would be a sure way to land the majority of the population in jail :D

Even the effing Vikings had rules against lying about others in matters of law. There's nothing particularly Christian or Jewish about it.

10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's - Thought crime? I think not....

Well, ok. The Vikings were big on coveting other people's stuff. But this Commandmant is not only not mentioned, it is totally antithetical to The American Way of life. If we didn't covet our neighbor's stuff, the economy would collapse.

So, all in all, we've got one commandment that corresponds to actual laws, and one that is somewhat similar.

And that's pretty much by accident.

8 of the ten commandments have no legal bearing at all. There doesn't seem to be much common ground at all. So what are those claims based on?

Wishful thinking. Same thing Christians base all their other claims on.

Correct. It's an influence, but not the basis. You should also know that Christianity doesn't approve capital punishment. I think Judaism and Islam do, but not Christianity.


Christianity no. Christians, most definatly yes. The most agnostic and athiestic Americans tend to be the most anti-death penalty. The most Christian tend to be the most pro-death.

Well, a lot of people think that this means that you shouldn't say things like "God Dammit" or "Oh Jesus Christ!" It actually means that instead of saying "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" you should use some sort of pronoun like "Adonoi" or "God."

It means both.