NationStates Jolt Archive

According to most Christians, Jesus Christ died in an extremely painful way on a cross, to absolve humanity from original sin. They state that this is a reason to worship and respect him, and up to a point I agree.

What I do not understand is why those same people do not worship those millions of other humans that died to save others. The soldiers that fell defending their country. The men that pushed babycarriages out of the way of trucks, to get hit themselves. The sailors that jumped out the lifeboat so it would not sink and rations would be sufficient for the remaining occupants. The fireman that saved the woman, but perished in the flames.

What did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ? Is someone willing to die to save another less special than someone who dies to save everyone ?

Considering that the whole idea behind Jesus' supposed sacrifice, is that he did so, to absolve us all of a sin in wich we could not help but commit.

That means God condemned us to Hell, the moment we arrived on earth.


So..Jesus died to forgive us of something that wasnt really our fault.

Why did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ?
He is the son of God and his mother was a virgin, so there was no sin involved in his conception. He is perfect, therefore he is the only man worthy of worship.

...or something. I actually know next to nothing about christianity. *Flees*

So..Jesus died to forgive us of something that wasnt really our fault.

He still saved us though. So while we can put some questionmarks around the morals of his daddy, Jesus did do something nice for us.
(If we assume the tales to be true).

New look strange and frightening...


Aaannyway...

You got to have teachings to have worshipers, I'd imagine. It's kind of hard to worship Steve the Fireman. "I follow Steve the Fireman, hollow be thy name!" "What did he stand for?" "I don't know...booze and chicks, I think..." "He's a Fireman." "Fireman can't be into booze and chicks?" "Alright, he's into booze and chicks. What...uh...what do we do with that...did he leave behind any writtings?" "There's this half doodle of a tool shed I think he wanted to build." "That'll be our temple!"

and so on...

He still saved us though. So while we can put some questionmarks around the morals of his daddy, Jesus did do something nice for us.
(If we assume the tales to be true).


Not really.

Its like saying "Hey, I forgive you for not stealing that five bucks, i had."

Pointless.

A sin is really only a sin, when its intentional.
Otherwise, its a bullshit exscuse into convincing people to join your growing cult.
"You are automatically DAMNED ...unless you sign here....."

I dont buy it.

Not really.

Its like saying "Hey, I forgive you for not stealing that five bucks, i had."

Pointless.

A sin is really only a sin, when its intentional.
Otherwise, its a bullshit exscuse into convincing people to join your growing cult.
"You are automatically DAMNED ...unless you sign here....."

I dont buy it. I'm not really qualified to comment on this, but it's my understanding that we were cursed with "Original Sin" thanks to Adam and Eve's actions in the garden of Eden.

BTW, is anyone else really creeped out by this new format?

You got to have teachings to have worshipers, I'd imagine. It's kind of hard to worship Steve the Fireman.

Instead of Jesus the carpenter ;) ?

I'm not really qualified to comment on this, but it's my understanding that we were cursed with "Original Sin" thanks to Adam and Eve's actions in the garden of Eden.

BTW, is anyone else really creeped out by this new format?

You are correct.

See, and the thing about The Garden of Eden fiasco, is:

The apple represents knowledge, correct?

The biggest sin man commited, was learning.
Eve ate the apple, and shared it with Adam.

This means that God forever damned man to a life of suffering, and toil, becuase he dared to learn.

You are correct.

See, and the thing about The Garden of Eden fiasco, is:

The apple represents knowledge, correct?

The biggest sin man commited, was learning.
Eve ate the apple, and shared it with Adam.

This means that God forever damned man to a life of suffering, and toil, becuase he dared to learn. Actually, I think the point of the sin was that God SPECIFICALLY said "Hey guys, do whatever you want and have a great time. Just promise me you won't eat from this tree." Then Eve and Adam were like, "Screw it."

Actually, I think the point of the sin was that God SPECIFICALLY said "Hey guys, do whatever you want and have a great time. Just promise me you won't eat from this tree." Then Eve and Adam were like, "Screw it."


Look at the big picture.

What was the only thing God said?

"Dont eat the apple".

The apple represents what?

Knowledge.

So, in essence God is saying "Do not learn anything that I dont like, or specifically tell you is learnable"

Again, being omniscient, of course God knew they would....but let them do it anyway...(Christians love to put FREE WILL in here)...

So..God punished all of man, for all time..for learning.

Instead of Jesus the carpenter ;) ?

Son of, or stepson, or however that works...and then theres' that whole rest of it...

Look at the big picture.

What was the only thing God said?

"Dont eat the apple".

The apple represents what?

Knowledge.

So, in essence God is saying "Do not learn anything that I dont like, or specifically tell you is learnable"

Again, being omniscient, of course God knew they would....but let them do it anyway...(Christians love to put FREE WILL in here)...

So..God punished all of man, for all time..for learning.Sure, the apple represented knowledge. But that isn't why Adam and Eve ate it. They ate it because they were dumb enough to believe a snake.

Seeing as I'm a dissolute-determinist, I'm not really going to argue with you over God knowing. I'm not a Christian anyway.

You are correct.

See, and the thing about The Garden of Eden fiasco, is:

The apple represents knowledge, correct?

The biggest sin man commited, was learning.
Eve ate the apple, and shared it with Adam.

This means that God forever damned man to a life of suffering, and toil, becuase he dared to learn.


First of all read the bible and/or understand what is written in it. What happened is in the contest of the story, that Adam and Eve were tempted by the snake to eat the apple, so they would "know" everything, thus becoming the same as god. And no God did nto damn humans, this is a literal represantion with a message, and if there is one person who wants us to learn it IS God.
On the thread, I my must comment, that we have really gone low, to find an anti-Catholic, anti- Christian, reason, to critiseze the church. Another attempt at putting dirt in the Church's face, when the Bible says that "the greatest love is to give your life for someone". And you know why we don not worship them? Becasue in the Commandemnts and Bible it is written that we WORSHIP GOD AN GOD ALONE, so your argument is totally unfounded.

Look at the big picture.

What was the only thing God said?

"Dont eat the apple".

The apple represents what?

Knowledge.

So, in essence God is saying "Do not learn anything that I dont like, or specifically tell you is learnable"

Again, being omniscient, of course God knew they would....but let them do it anyway...(Christians love to put FREE WILL in here)...

So..God punished all of man, for all time..for learning.


Why just you don't make a big sign like this:

"HEY I AM ANTI-CHRSTIAN, I THINK YOUR GOD IS REALLY UGLY AND EVIL, AND I HATE HIM".

It saves a lot of time from arguing.

I imagine it has a lot to do with constantine.

And you know why we don not worship them? Becasue in the Commandemnts and Bible it is written that we WORSHIP GOD AN GOD ALONE, so your argument is totally unfounded.

Fine - call it "honour" then. Why do you believe Jesus deserves more honour than all those other heros - enough to have several holidays in his honour ?

Well, while I think people should respect everyone who has made a sacrifice to save others, you're missing a point. While Jesus did die for the sake of other people, you seem to be missing the whole son of God aspect of it.

Well, while I think people should respect everyone who has made a sacrifice to save others, you're missing a point. While Jesus did die for the sake of other people, you seem to be missing the whole son of God aspect of it.

Being "the son of" in my book is no reason to worship or respect someone. I judge people by their own actions.

Fine - call it "honour" then. Why do you believe Jesus deserves more honour than all those other heros - enough to have several holidays in his honour ?


I am really interested in the first place if you have an idea in your head, that the Church doesn't honour people who die for someone, or sacrifice themselves. This is not a question of deserving, it is a question that HE Was, and IS the Son of God, and he sacrificed himself for the WHOLE world, when as God, he could have simply saved us from our sins, by methods, which wouldn not require his crucifiction, but he did not do that , to show us that you things with humility.
By the Way are you realising, that you want to make humans the same as God, by what you are stating/

Being "the son of" in my book is no reason to worship or respect someone. I judge people by their own actions.


Well, than, are you saying, Jesus's, actions weren't respectable enough, or should he have been crucified 1,000,000 times, to earn your respect?

Considering that the whole idea behind Jesus' supposed sacrifice, is that he did so, to absolve us all of a sin in wich we could not help but commit.

That means God condemned us to Hell, the moment we arrived on earth.


So..Jesus died to forgive us of something that wasnt really our fault.

Oh nonsense.

You were born in the state you live in, in the house you live in, in the financial condition you live in because of the choices that your parents, and their parents before them, decided long before they knew anything about you. Is it ‘fair’ that you were born poor and dirty? And you currently live in a place with no way to improve yourself? Does the fact that it’s not ‘fair’ mean that the person isn’t poor and destitute and dirty? Of course they are, ‘fair’ has nothing to do with it.

Forgiveness for sins is more like being washed and moved to a better place than it is like say it’s not my fault so I don’t need to be moved to a house or given a an education or job as a way to improve myself becasue being destitute and dirty is the 'natural' state of existence.

What you are doing is saying to the guy with the shower and the moving truck all ready to take you to a better place is that you think you shouldn’t need the ride and the job and since you didn’t do anything to make your situation come about in the first place you are refusing the offer to be moved to a better place. Thus, you wallow in the mud and try to convice yourself you aren't getting dirty.

I'm a christian and I am going to tell you why a Worship Jesus... In fact it does go back to the Garden of Eden.

The issue with the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is that first God said not to, 2ndly they wanted to take the position of gof in the fact they wanted to be like. Nothing wrong with that if you don't consider the fact that they where trying to replace God with themselves. Something that every member of every succeeding generation has done since then. This is what I call the original sin.

But the thing is, Jesus, being the Son of God did not get his knowledge and understanding from men, but from his father and so he knew how to behave. And so he never committed a sin, in the bible it said "He always did things that please the father[God]". Now as the one human that had no sin he had 2 options, he could have condemned the world. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". "For God so loved the World that he gave his only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn it, but that the world through him might be saved."

And so as the Sinless one, a person that did not deserve to receive the wages of sin. "For the wages of Sin is Death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord." Took that sin upon himself so that the wages, the fair result, of our sin can be attributed to his death on the cross and not to us.

Sin is not an action, It's an attitude and belief that we know better than God. Replacing the infaliable judgement of the creator of the world with our own fallible judgement

I am really interested in the first place if you have an idea in your head, that the Church doesn't honour people who die for someone, or sacrifice themselves.

Some churches indeed do - but they receive nowhere near the amount of honour and respect Jesus gets. I wish to discover the underlying reasoning for that. So far you are the only one who is attempting to seriously answer btw ;)

This is not a question of deserving, it is a question that HE Was, and IS the Son of God, and he sacrificed himself for the WHOLE world, when as God, he could have simply saved us from our sins, by methods, which wouldn not require his crucifiction, but he did not do that , to show us that you things with humility.

The above reasoning is only valid if you assume that Jesus and God are one and the same person. If so, you have a point which I need to ponder.

If however you assume that Jesus was "merely" the son of God he would not have possessed the power to absolve humanity from their sins in "other ways".

By the Way are you realising, that you want to make humans the same as God, by what you are stating/

No, just the same as Jesus.

Well, than, are you saying, Jesus's, actions weren't respectable enough, or should he have been crucified 1,000,000 times, to earn your respect?

Oh no, he earned my respect for that. I just do not see why someone that sacrifices himself for the sake of a few billion people deserves more respect than someone who is willing to die for only a few - or even one. Those people in fact seem to be a lot more humble...

Aside: if you were able to convince me that by letting myself be crucified every single human being on this planet would become much happier than if I didn't - I would follow in Jesus footsteps without hesitation. I would not even need to know beforehand I would be resurrected and receive a seat in heaven.

Because Jesus is god.

Because Jesus is god.

So is Ray Charles, and he doesn't make me go anywhere on Sunday...


(please don't make me do it...)

Some churches indeed do - but they receive nowhere near the amount of honour and respect Jesus gets. I wish to discover the underlying reasoning for that. So far you are the only one who is attempting to seriously answer btw ;)

The reason is simple, Jesus is God. I don't know what the other churches believe but mine, this is what we believe. God will always remain God.

The above reasoning is only valid if you assume that Jesus and God are one and the same person. If so, you have a point which I need to ponder.

That is quite right, and my faith (Roman Catholic) beleives that.

If however you assume that Jesus was "merely" the son of God he would not have possessed the power to absolve humanity from their sins in "other ways".

Can you please make the question clearer because I can't quite understand it.


Oh no, he earned my respect for that. I just do not see why someone that sacrifices himself for the sake of a few billion people deserves more respect than someone who is willing to die for only a few - or even one. Those people in fact seem to be a lot more humble...

This is silly, these people are enjoying there deserved gift: Heaven. That is their prize becasue, they made the ultimate sacrifice: their life for another.
In human history their was never a reason, why people should be respected more than God(which is equal to Jesus+ the other two Persons, of The Holy Trinity), altough people have done that mistake.

Aside: if you were able to convince me that by letting myself be crucified every single human being on this planet would become much happier than if I didn't - I would follow in Jesus footsteps without hesitation. I would not even need to know beforehand I would be resurrected and receive a seat in heaven.

No, that would be totally mad, to crucify yourself, that isn't needed now, that what was needed but at that time, that was their method of punishment. Now your way, of following Jesus, would be to pray, and try to be as much as possible, an honourble human being, with ofcourse our natural limitations, that we sin and such, but that is who we are. Your punishment instead of crucifiction by the humans, will be mockings of your beliefs and actions and temptations(like Jesus had in the desert) to abondon, this way of life.

So is Ray Charles, and he doesn't make me go anywhere on Sunday...


(please don't make me do it...)

Do it Mr. Name.

Do it Mr. Name.

You do it. I know you know it, everyone knows it...

According to most Christians, Jesus Christ died in an extremely painful way on a cross, to absolve humanity from original sin. They state that this is a reason to worship and respect him, and up to a point I agree.

What I do not understand is why those same people do not worship those millions of other humans that died to save others. The soldiers that fell defending their country. The men that pushed babycarriages out of the way of trucks, to get hit themselves. The sailors that jumped out the lifeboat so it would not sink and rations would be sufficient for the remaining occupants. The fireman that saved the woman, but perished in the flames.

What did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ? Is someone willing to die to save another less special than someone who dies to save everyone ?

I think it's kind of the fact that he was the son of god. If you believe that sort of thing.

Jesus had a better beard than all those other people.

So is Ray Charles, and he doesn't make me go anywhere on Sunday...


(please don't make me do it...)


Emm, by the way, never knew God comes with a shotgun each Sunday morning, puts it to your head and says "If you don't come to Church, I will kill you". If you go to church on Sunday, it is a sign, that you think it is wrong not to go, or, you have got used to it, and find it as a social event, instead of a religious one.

People worship christ becasue they are told to as children and punished if they question or bother to think for themselves.

People worship christ becasue they are told to as children and punished if they question or bother to think for themselves.

How do you explain conversions, then? There must be some appeal otherwise.

How do you explain conversions, then? There must be some appeal otherwise.

People are idiots. It explains everything, more or less.

Emm, by the way, never knew God comes with a shotgun each Sunday morning, puts it to your head and says "If you don't come to Church, I will kill you". If you go to church on Sunday, it is a sign, that you think it is wrong not to go, or, you have got used to it, and find it as a social event, instead of a religious one.

You don't think "Burn in Hell for eternity" isn't a crazy big shotgun, Mr. I'mgonnatakeanirreverantposttooseriously?

You don't think "Burn in Hell for eternity" isn't a crazy big shotgun, Mr. I'mgonnatakeanirreverantposttooseriously?


Well forgive for taking your post seriously, because that is my character. No that is your perception of it "Burn in Hell for eternity" because I believe, because I want to not because I fear of going to hell.

People are idiots. It explains everything, more or less.

Well, don't say that because than if you say that a Christian might say, " People are idiots. It explains everything, why they don't believe, more or less."

According to most Christians, Jesus Christ died in an extremely painful way on a cross, to absolve humanity from original sin. They state that this is a reason to worship and respect him, and up to a point I agree.

What I do not understand is why those same people do not worship those millions of other humans that died to save others. The soldiers that fell defending their country. The men that pushed babycarriages out of the way of trucks, to get hit themselves. The sailors that jumped out the lifeboat so it would not sink and rations would be sufficient for the remaining occupants. The fireman that saved the woman, but perished in the flames.

What did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ? Is someone willing to die to save another less special than someone who dies to save everyone ?

You do not worship Christ or you would know the answer.
So "WE" do not worship Jesus Christ. As "WE" would include you.
Christ, was the Son of God(Biblically speaking), The Chosen Messiah, Divinity made flesh---he was not just a man, and any sacrifice another man might make pales in comparison----it doesnt mean it should not be recognized respected and revered but thats about it, certainly not worshipped.

You approach the subject as one of the faithless--so to you he is just a guy who died painfully.

How do you explain conversions, then? There must be some appeal otherwise.

Humans seem to have a need to beleive in some form of god and afterlife simply becaus they know they are mortal and will die someday, and their egos (indeed any ego) cannot stand the idea of its own non-existance. Jesus is just as good (or bad) a chioce as any other mythical god.

Oh nonsense.

You were born in the state you live in, in the house you live in, in the financial condition you live in because of the choices that your parents, and their parents before them, decided long before they knew anything about you. Is it ‘fair’ that you were born poor and dirty? And you currently live in a place with no way to improve yourself? Does the fact that it’s not ‘fair’ mean that the person isn’t poor and destitute and dirty? Of course they are, ‘fair’ has nothing to do with it.

Forgiveness for sins is more like being washed and moved to a better place than it is like say it’s not my fault so I don’t need to be moved to a house or given a an education or job as a way to improve myself becasue being destitute and dirty is the 'natural' state of existence.

What you are doing is saying to the guy with the shower and the moving truck all ready to take you to a better place is that you think you shouldn’t need the ride and the job and since you didn’t do anything to make your situation come about in the first place you are refusing the offer to be moved to a better place. Thus, you wallow in the mud and try to convice yourself you aren't getting dirty.


What a lovely crock of crap that is.

First, tell me what kind of sin a person can commit while in the womb, or as an infant?

None.

Yet, according to the bible, such an infant will go to hell if he is unbaptised, or not "saved".

So, according to God himself, you are condemned the moment of birth, unless you accept Jesus as your saviour.

This sounds fair to you?

Oh wait, thats right.....you dont care about being fair, do you?
You would prefer some kind of maniacal God that instantly is willing to send you to Hell, the moment you take your first breath.

This is the God you follow.

So tell me, What exactly did Jesus forgive me personally of?

Original sin?

You mean the one that I had no control over, and couldnt have stopped, if I had even been aware at the time?

Thats what automatically condemns me?

Or.....do you think that just maybe....there never really was such a thing, and that all it amounts to, was a great way to gain converts to a growing religion 2000 years ago, becuase it warned those who didnt join, of eternal damnation, Hellfire and Brimstone?

How do you explain conversions, then? There must be some appeal otherwise.

sense of community, and belonging to a social group.

Hell, many christians only join churches for those reasons.

Considering that the whole idea behind Jesus' supposed sacrifice, is that he did so, to absolve us all of a sin in wich we could not help but commit.

That means God condemned us to Hell, the moment we arrived on earth.


So..Jesus died to forgive us of something that wasnt really our fault.

You said what I wanted to say, but better.

You said what I wanted to say, but better.

You were telepathically telling me what to write....


*nods*

What a lovely crock of crap that is.

First, tell me what kind of sin a person can commit while in the womb, or as an infant?

None.

Yet, according to the bible, such an infant will go to hell if he is unbaptised, or not "saved".

So, according to God himself, you are condemned the moment of birth, unless you accept Jesus as your saviour.

This sounds fair to you?

Oh wait, thats right.....you dont care about being fair, do you?
You would prefer some kind of maniacal God that instantly is willing to send you to Hell, the moment you take your first breath.

This is the God you follow.

So tell me, What exactly did Jesus forgive me personally of?

Original sin?

You mean the one that I had no control over, and couldnt have stopped, if I had even been aware at the time?

Thats what automatically condemns me?

Or.....do you think that just maybe....there never really was such a thing, and that all it amounts to, was a great way to gain converts to a growing religion 2000 years ago, becuase it warned those who didnt join, of eternal damnation, Hellfire and Brimstone?


Now, let me teach you some things on the Bible. There is no where written that someone who is not baptised shall go to hell. If they have created a New Bible where you live, I don't know, but in my Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, there is no such thing. In my Church's teaching, we are taught that to save yourself, you can be of any religion, or even of none, the only thing you need to do is to be a good-willing person. But the problem is, that if you are a member of the Church, you can receive Christ in the Eucharist, and seek forgiveness, in Reconcilation Sagrament. God will always forgive you for your sins, but if you go to Reconciliation,and are have truly redempeded from your sins, you will, and are assured of not going to hell, instead you will go to the purgatory.Thats the advantage of being Catholic or Christian, and not forgetting to mention, that you will be able to know more clearly, what is right and wrong. If you have never learned of Christ, or haven't have an opportunity, or are of a different religion, God will judge you on if you followed your consiounce, and if you followed your Religion, but if you were Chrisitan or Catholic, and Chose another path, other religion or atheism, you are doing a big mistake, putting yourself on the line, because you are flat out, rejecting God. And this Original Sin nonesense has to stop, the Original Sin is, the sin of "Suppervja", I don't know the word in English for it, but it is when you are hard-headed, and when you think you don't need God, and others, and only want want want, stuff for yourself, in other words, our natural human charateristics, egoistic and such, and rage and so. That is the Original Sin, not some Adam and Eve nonsense. And we all are aware of our defects, we all have the Original Sin in one way of the other, some manage to repel it and some not so well, and others not at all. So please people try to leave your 5 year old teachings, and learn the real meaning of things before, you go out and try to make a point.

What did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ? Is someone willing to die to save another less special than someone who dies to save everyone ?
Well, saving everyone is more heroic than saving one person, but we have saints for a reason. It's also worth remembering that Jesus was the son of God, thus he is God and worthy of worship.

Look at the big picture.

So..God punished all of man, for all time..for learning.
Look at the state of the world. Maybe it would have been better if we had not learned about concepts like war and exploitation.

People worship christ becasue they are told to as children and punished if they question or bother to think for themselves.
Maybe in the bad old days. Never happened to me.

First of all read the bible and/or understand what is written in it.

Indeed I have read it, and I contest that is you who did not question what it was you read.


What happened is in the contest of the story, that Adam and Eve were tempted by the snake to eat the apple, so they would "know" everything, thus becoming the same as god.

Since we assume that the serpent is representational of the Devil, then we are to assume that God wanted Eve to resist a being with the Power of Heaven itself??

God would punish Eve for losing a contest of wills with Lucifer himself??






And no God did nto damn humans, this is a literal represantion with a message, and if there is one person who wants us to learn it IS God.

Bullshit.

Look at your own damn bible!

Adam and Eve lived in idyllic paradise, hardly any work, no fear of mortality..
Absolute paradise.

God kicked them out of Eden, and thus condemned humanity, for all time, to a life of suffering, pain, and hard work.

You cannot deny this.

So, what we have here, is God, condemning Eve, for failing to resist temptation from a being second only to God Himself in power, eating from the fruit of knowledge...or..in essence..learning forbidden knowledge...
..and condemning mankind for all time, becuase of that decision.






On the thread, I my must comment, that we have really gone low, to find an anti-Catholic, anti- Christian, reason, to critiseze the church. Another attempt at putting dirt in the Church's face, when the Bible says that "the greatest love is to give your life for someone". And you know why we don not worship them? Becasue in the Commandemnts and Bible it is written that we WORSHIP GOD AN GOD ALONE, so your argument is totally unfounded.

Always the one who wants to be martyred arent ya?
"Oh boo-hoo....youre not being nice to the Church."

I think the church needs to start being nice to others for a change.

As for God, and God alone.....Where does Jesus fit into that?
Unless your going for the "Godhead" scene?

Or Mary, for that matter?

Catholics pray to Mary.

The dictionary says thats clearly worship.

Ohh, but that doesnt fit into your particular vision of Christianity, does it?
I suppose you better ignore that then.

Look at the state of the world. Maybe it would have been better if we had not learned about concepts like war and exploitation.


I think its a bit like child-rearing.

Never good to shelter the kids.

No, those things arent good, but sometimes, life isnt always peachy, and suffering hardships, can make us better people.

Well, saving everyone is more heroic than saving one person

Why ? It seems to me that a person willing to die to save one random other would also be willing to die to save everyone (if only because that includes that one person he or she is willing to die for).

But I am not so sure that someone who is willing to die to save the life of billions would also be willing to die for less.

I think its a bit like child-rearing.

Never good to shelter the kids.

No, those things arent good, but sometimes, life isnt always peachy, and suffering hardships, can make us better people.
It's not good to shelter the kids because there are people who exploit and make conflict. I don't see how endless war (and I don't see war ever ending) is making humans better people.

War advances technology, but is that always a good thing? The price is too high.

Why?
Because more people get saved

Indeed I have read it, and I contest that is you who did not question what it was you read.



Since we assume that the serpent is representational of the Devil, then we are to assume that God wanted Eve to resist a being with the Power of Heaven itself??

God would punish Eve for losing a contest of wills with Lucifer himself??

Bullshit.

Look at your own damn bible!

Adam and Eve lived in idyllic paradise, hardly any work, no fear of mortality..
Absolute paradise.

God kicked them out of Eden, and thus condemned humanity, for all time, to a life of suffering, pain, and hard work.

You cannot deny this.

So, what we have here, is God, condemning Eve, for failing to resist temptation from a being second only to God Himself in power, eating from the fruit of knowledge...or..in essence..learning forbidden knowledge...
..and condemning mankind for all time, becuase of that decision.

Always the one who wants to be martyred arent ya?
"Oh boo-hoo....youre not being nice to the Church."

I think the church needs to start being nice to others for a change.

As for God, and God alone.....Where does Jesus fit into that?
Unless your going for the "Godhead" scene?

Or Mary, for that matter?

Catholics pray to Mary.

The dictionary says thats clearly worship.

Ohh, but that doesnt fit into your particular vision of Christianity, does it?
I suppose you better ignore that then.


Now look here if you are still saying or believing, that there was an Adam and Eve, and a talking snake came to tempt them, and beleive that it literally happened, you have a serious problem, in identifying, representation from literally.Paradise, is what we will be living like if we go to heaven, that is a representation of heaven. The only thing you need to learn is that this didn't happen literally, because nearly your whole damned argumnet is on this.
And no I am not trying to be a Martyr, just because I defend my Religion, doesn't make me a martry, it makes me an active Catholic. The Church not nice to others??!?! Than what do you call missionary work, all the charitable work, the many organisations that help all sort of different people of differnet groups, work with immigrants, and Chruch schools,advice to people and such. If you don't call that being nice to people, I don't know what you can call it.

And for God and God alone, Jesus is God, so there is no differnce between them, three Persons in One, the Holy Trinity, but ofcourse your bible is a special limited atheist edition.

But what does Mary has to do with Jesus or God, in the issue of this thread, and I do pray to Mary, both in the Rosary, and other Prayers. I don't worship Mary, I worship God, I try to follow Mary and the other saints footsteps though. If someone worships Mary or another Saint, he is doing wrong. In the Roman Catholic Church we don't worship Them, we Worship God and God alone, and don't tell me that I m wrong on this, because you aren't a Catholic, and don't go reguraly to see what they are doing, if you haven't decided to spy on Catholics, and invent myths about them so as to defame them.

If you haven't learn the proper stuff when you where young, or you didn't understand them, or decide to twist them, please don't speak on the subject, because I know people who know the whole Bible by heart, and take it literally, and aren't a bit Christian and Catholic, so don't be one of them. Just say that you Don't believe in Christian or Catholic Religion, and thats it, don't ivent myths on Christianism and Catholicsm, to please yourself and others of your type.

It's not good to shelter the kids because there are people who exploit and make conflict. I don't see how endless war (and I don't see war ever ending) is making humans better people.

War advances technology, but is that always a good thing? The price is too high.



I dont mean to say that "wars make people better", but sometimes, enduring a hardship, can do just that.

If a child has a favorite pet that dies, learning of death can make the child a more worldly person.

Sometimes, seeing just how shitty this world is, can make us appreciate what we do have.

I dont mean to say that "wars make people better", but sometimes, enduring a hardship, can do just that.

If a child has a favorite pet that dies, learning of death can make the child a more worldly person.

Sometimes, seeing just how shitty this world is, can make us appreciate what we do have.

I have to agree with you here(what a surprise; the first thing you and I have agreed on). When you suffer something, or have the lack of somethinh, you began to appreciate and become a better person. It is suffering that makes us better persons most of the time, and altough war is a curse, it can make you a much better person, and realise the beauty of peace, and become a better person all round in most cases.

Now look here if you are still saying or believing, that there was an Adam and Eve, and a talking snake came to tempt them, and beleive that it literally happened, you have a serious problem, in identifying, representation from literally.

As you so eagerly point out, I am indeed an athiest.
Knowing that, you still think I believe any of the Eden stuff was anything other than metaphor?

Let me put this in a way you can understand.

"You obviously never picked up on the actual methaphorical intention of Genesis, and instead, are relying on what you were taught, not what you learned by yourself."

Did you get that?





And no I am not trying to be a Martyr,

Sure you are.

Here you are defending your faith to the death against some "evil atheist".

Just love to be persecuted dontcha?



. The Church not nice to others??!?! Than what do you call missionary work, all the charitable work, the many organisations that help all sort of different people of differnet groups, work with immigrants, and Chruch schools,advice to people and such. If you don't call that being nice to people, I don't know what you can call it.

I call the forbidding of birth-control the most irresponsible thing done in recent years by the Church.
Do you realize the number of HIV positive people in these third world, predominantly Catholic countries?


And for God and God alone, Jesus is God, so there is no differnce between them, three Persons in One, the Holy Trinity, but ofcourse your bible is a special limited atheist edition.

So you go in for the Godhead...thats nice, too bad you couldnt just say that, and instead had to go the "what the hell do you know, you rotten Heathen" route.

But what does Mary has to do with Jesus or God, in the issue of this thread, and I do pray to Mary, both in the Rosary, and other Prayers. I don't worship Mary, [/quote]

You pray to Mary.

By the very definition of the word "worship"...you most definately worship mary, simply by praying to her.
If you disagree....argue with Webster's....not me.






I worship God, I try to follow Mary and the other saints footsteps though. If someone worships Mary or another Saint, he is doing wrong. In the Roman Catholic Church we don't worship Them, we Worship God and God alone, and don't tell me that I m wrong on this, because you aren't a Catholic, and don't go reguraly to see what they are doing, if you haven't decided to spy on Catholics, and invent myths about them so as to defame them.

I dont need to be Catholic to know that you dont really know what your talking about.

You also have some sort of false idea that becuase I happen to be an Atheist, that I was always one, or have never learned anything about Catholicism.
That would make you a fool to assume such.


If you haven't learn the proper stuff when you where young, or you didn't understand them, or decide to twist them, please don't speak on the subject, because I know people who know the whole Bible by heart, and take it literally, and aren't a bit Christian and Catholic, so don't be one of them. Just say that you Don't believe in Christian or Catholic Religion, and thats it, don't ivent myths on Christianism and Catholicsm, to please yourself and others of your type.

I find you to be one of the most close-minded, and frankly, uneducated catholics on this forum.
You seem to do little but stand on your soapbox, and make innacurate assumptions about anyone who does not conform to your specific brand of theology.

Not only have I read your little book, and the texts of several other religions, but having once been a christian, did a bit of learning about it, no one can say I dont know what Im talking about.

Even as an atheist, I also happen to live in the Unofficial Religious Capital of the World.
A town with more churches per capita, than any other city in the world.
Trust me when I say, Ive met, and talked and debated with more christians than you've probably gazed upon.

My only suggestion to you, is that you look a bit deeper into what it is your Scripture is telling you, and pay a touch less attention to what you think it SHOULD mean.

The two are a bit different.

As you so eagerly point out, I am indeed an athiest.
Knowing that, you still think I believe any of the Eden stuff was anything other than metaphor?

Let me put this in a way you can understand.

"You obviously never picked up on the actual methaphorical intention of Genesis, and instead, are relying on what you were taught, not what you learned by yourself."

Did you get that?


Sure you are.

Here you are defending your faith to the death against some "evil atheist".

Just love to be persecuted dontcha?



I call the forbidding of birth-control the most irresponsible thing done in recent years by the Church.
Do you realize the number of HIV positive people in these third world, predominantly Catholic countries?

So you go in for the Godhead...thats nice, too bad you couldnt just say that, and instead had to go the "what the hell do you know, you rotten Heathen" route.

But what does Mary has to do with Jesus or God, in the issue of this thread, and I do pray to Mary, both in the Rosary, and other Prayers. I don't worship Mary,

You pray to Mary.

By the very definition of the word "worship"...you most definately worship mary, simply by praying to her.
If you disagree....argue with Webster's....not me.

I dont need to be Catholic to know that you dont really know what your talking about.

You also have some sort of false idea that becuase I happen to be an Atheist, that I was always one, or have never learned anything about Catholicism.
That would make you a fool to assume such.

I find you to be one of the most close-minded, and frankly, uneducated catholics on this forum.
You seem to do little but stand on your soapbox, and make innacurate assumptions about anyone who does not conform to your specific brand of theology.

Not only have I read your little book, and the texts of several other religions, but having once been a christian, did a bit of learning about it, no one can say I dont know what Im talking about.

Even as an atheist, I also happen to live in the Unofficial Religious Capital of the World.
A town with more churches per capita, than any other city in the world.
Trust me when I say, Ive met, and talked and debated with more christians than you've probably gazed upon.

My only suggestion to you, is that you look a bit deeper into what it is your Scripture is telling you, and pay a touch less attention to what you think it SHOULD mean.

The two are a bit different.


Oh, no I learned the meaning of the Genesis, not only by from what I am taught, from one of the most open-minded priests I have ever seen, but by examining it myself, and seeing that what he says is true. Of course, people may understand differently, but in the end, their is one true meaning.

I am not trying to be a martry. So you are saying in that way that when soldiers are defending their country they are doing that to try to be martyrys.No they do it because it is their duty. Tell me, if you are a member of an organistations, isn't it your duty, to defend it and spread its word. Well thats what I am doing.

The Church doesn't forbid birth Control. It doesn't force them. It says that we should instead of using birth control methods, we shoudl try to restrain ourselves instead. And what the hell does the fact that there are predominatly Catholic Countries in Africa which have high rates of HIV with the Church not being Nice. Their is such a High rate, because there isn't any education, to the population, not because of the Church, and everyone knows this, so don't go that low please. Lets express our opinions but not tell utter myths like this one.

So tell me, how the hell can you say that I worship Mary, when I know for a fact that I don't. Please inform me if you have some "special mind reading powers" and you know if I pray or worship Mary.

There are no fools here, just people, trying to say what they believe in.

I expect that you say that I am clsoe-minded, but you are wrong. I am a radicalist in my beliefs, be it Relgiious, Political, and Economic, and Social. Those who are close minded say that "Anyone who isn't christian go to hell" and frankly I don't say suh stuff, and if you read my book so well, you what have read that when there was someone who said such things, I immediatly told him that he was wrong. And I have faced more than you can imagine in Atheists, so as not to think, that I haven't ever met one and talked to him. And don't tell me that I am ill-educated, because you don't know me on an academic level, because in my academic level, I am good, and not ill-educated. This is a response to your critism, not boasting as some people may and probably will take it.

Well and on the Unnoficial Religios Capitla in the World I think you are sadly mistaken. Here in Malta, in my own small vilage, we have 2 large churches and 8 chapels, and this in one small village, Malta is filled with churches and chapels. And don't worry I have laid my eyes on many Christians and Catholics.

Who are you to tell me to look what the scripture is telling me?( A thing which I do but you claim I don't). If you looked at what the scripture is telling you and understanded it, you would convert into a Catholic.

One last note. Many atheists become so, because they either think that they are so intelignet that the Christianity is a myth and they can prove it, or because they don't want to follow or observe Chritianity because it puts "limitations" to their lives as they think altough never admit, but in fact they help them, and should be happy for that. In the end my friend, we will see who is right, Atheism or Christianity, and I am 100% certain, that a lot of people will be amazed at what the reality and truth of things are. The World will be shook to this fact. Their is prophecy from the Holy Mary, that in the lifetimes of two(can't remember the exact number) people in who had visions of the Holy Mary in Medjugorje, (they are in their 30-40's if I remeber), their will be an event in which the world will stop and, for a period of time, be made aware of the existince of God. And this time is coming ever closer. Also these people have said, that they wish people to convert because the tribulation period, and suffering that is to befall humanity, is the most horrible everwitnessed.

You may tell me this is another myth, or that until it happens I won't believe, but I give you a friends advice, try to rediscover your christian roots again, so you shall be better prepared for the moment, because as the Holy Mary said "After this event, atheists will have, few time to convert". Please give it some thought and not treat it as rubbish, because you despise me or my religion.

One last note. Many atheists become so, because they either think that they are so intelignet that the Christianity is a myth and they can prove it, or because they don't want to follow or observe Chritianity because it puts "limitations" to their lives
*snip*


Or of course because they would like a reason to believe before they do so. And a reason why Christianity is so much better than all those other religions.

Not a Christian myself, but I guess Christians worship Jesus because he was, like the perfect example of a human being. I don't quite get the part where they worship him fanatically though; such as 'Jesus is the light', because I thought God was supposed to be the light, who people were supposed to worship. It says quite clearly 'Worship no god but me' In the Bible.

One last note. Many atheists become so, because they either think that they are so intelignet that the Christianity is a myth and they can prove it, or because they don't want to follow or observe Chritianity because it puts "limitations" to their lives


The reason I became an atheist, or at least an atheo-agnostic(Is that even a term?) was not at all because I felt that I was so intelligent that I was sure Christianity was a myth and all Christians were stupid for believing it, nor because of the limitations and restrictions on my life (which I would follow if I believed God was real and that he/she/it(?) wanted me to), but the main reason was that I looked at the two sides of the argument; Religion and Science, and picked one which I felt made more sense to me. I am not at all 100% sure that Christian principles are false and Science true, In fact if God appeared right now and told me I was wrong I would apologise profoundly for not believing him. I believe that God could well exist, and maybe the Bible (or at least some of it) is true, I just believe there's a slightly greater chance of the contrary.

What a lovely crock of crap that is.

First, tell me what kind of sin a person can commit while in the womb, or as an infant?

None.

Yet, according to the bible, such an infant will go to hell if he is unbaptised, or not "saved".

So, according to God himself, you are condemned the moment of birth, unless you accept Jesus as your saviour.

This sounds fair to you?

Oh wait, thats right.....you dont care about being fair, do you?
You would prefer some kind of maniacal God that instantly is willing to send you to Hell, the moment you take your first breath.

This is the God you follow.

So tell me, What exactly did Jesus forgive me personally of?

Original sin?

You mean the one that I had no control over, and couldnt have stopped, if I had even been aware at the time?

Thats what automatically condemns me?

Or.....do you think that just maybe....there never really was such a thing, and that all it amounts to, was a great way to gain converts to a growing religion 2000 years ago, becuase it warned those who didnt join, of eternal damnation, Hellfire and Brimstone?


The wages of Sin is Death. The 'sin' you commit in the womb is the creation of your very life, and we all know that ALL living things WILL die. Period, end of story.

Rant and rave all you want. Blame everyone and everything for not being born with the fountain of youth in the palm of your hands, but you wrestle against it and know of your inevitable loss, you WILL grow old and die or die of an injury or disease before you grow old.

God, through Jesus, says he is the life, the true life and that through him you can have eternal life too, here and in the hereafter. What part of this is not fair? You would rather have not been born at all?

ALL births lead to death, it's just a matter of when, right away or a hundred years later. We are born in sin, sin is death, and because of this all of us, even you, are born and looking for a place to be dead, sooner or later.

Life in this world WILL bring death (thus proof that we are born into sin). The wages of sin are death, that's how it works even if you don't believe in God, or in Jesus as his son, the savior of those who accept him (because Jesus IS the resurrection those whom he accepts are saved into eternal life).

That's the God I follow, the one that lead us to eternal life, out of this life of sin, and even the god YOU follow (be it science or something else) it too must teach that all who are born will die, or else it lies to you illogically. Why then do you call God unfair? Perhaps you simply do not understand, perhaps you are blind and cannot see, maybe deaf and cannot hear, or lost and is not found? But there is something you can do about that. You cannot save yourself, but with God all things are possible, even conquering Sin and death.

Well, than, are you saying, Jesus's, actions weren't respectable enough, or should he have been crucified 1,000,000 times, to earn your respect?

What, exactly, did he do, besides say some things that were pretty damn obvious, and get crucified in a way that made him die in only a few hours, compared to the three days that crucifixion normally takes to kill someone. I don't respect people for dying. I respect them for doing stuff. Anyone can die.

What happened is in the contest of the story, that Adam and Eve were tempted by the snake to eat the apple, so they would "know" everything, thus becoming the same as god.
*snip*


It is the primary Christian ambition to become as "Christ-like" as possible... in that sense, why would it be a sin to eat an apple that might make you "the same as god?"

On a side note- try not to cite the Commandments as a basis for proving an anti-Christian argument as "unfounded."

What, exactly, did he do, besides say some things that were pretty damn obvious, and get crucified in a way that made him die in only a few hours, compared to the three days that crucifixion normally takes to kill someone. I don't respect people for dying. I respect them for doing stuff. Anyone can die.

Not everyone can conquer death and come back three days later to show us that he IS the resurrection.

Not everyone can conquer death and come back three days later to show us that he IS the resurrection.

Whoop dee fucking doo. Coming back from the dead doesn't help anyone one bit. In fact, it makes his death even more meaningless, because he came back. How about the people who actually stayed dead. That's a sacrifice.

It is the primary Christian ambition to become as "Christ-like" as possible... in that sense, why would it be a sin to eat an apple that might make you "the same as god?"

On a side note- try not to cite the Commandments as a basis for proving an anti-Christian argument as "unfounded."

The 'apple' in this case was a treat-trick offered by someone that didn't like the victim, the lesson was to learn what 'death' is. The punishment for breaking this simple rule was the death of the victim. So God had to find a way to cure death/sin. That’s why it was an unnecessary lesson. Does one need to experience death to know that they don’t want to do it?

Whoop dee fucking doo. Coming back from the dead doesn't help anyone one bit. In fact, it makes his death even more meaningless, because he came back. How about the people who actually stayed dead. That's a sacrifice.


It helped everyone that follows his teachings. He is the trailbreaker that leads the rest of us out of death as well. He is the path, the only bridge, that reaches across the chasm of death/sin and into eternal life.

So Whoop Dee Doo and Hallelujah Too, because that would be about right, it's a huge gift and an eternal path for salvation because of the conquering of the death/sin!

The wages of Sin is Death. The 'sin' you commit in the womb is the creation of your very life, and we all know that ALL living things WILL die. Period, end of story.

Rant and rave all you want. Blame everyone and everything for not being born with the fountain of youth in the palm of your hands, but you wrestle against it and know of your inevitable loss, you WILL grow old and die or die of an injury or disease before you grow old.

God, through Jesus, says he is the life, the true life and that through him you can have eternal life too, here and in the hereafter. What part of this is not fair? You would rather have not been born at all?

ALL births lead to death, it's just a matter of when, right away or a hundred years later. We are born in sin, sin is death, and because of this all of us, even you, are born and looking for a place to be dead, sooner or later.

Life in this world WILL bring death (thus proof that we are born into sin). The wages of sin are death, that's how it works even if you don't believe in God, or in Jesus as his son, the savior of those who accept him (because Jesus IS the resurrection those whom he accepts are saved into eternal life).

That's the God I follow, the one that lead us to eternal life, out of this life of sin, and even the god YOU follow (be it science or something else) it too must teach that all who are born will die, or else it lies to you illogically. Why then do you call God unfair? Perhaps you simply do not understand, perhaps you are blind and cannot see, maybe deaf and cannot hear, or lost and is not found? But there is something you can do about that. You cannot save yourself, but with God all things are possible, even conquering Sin and death.

I get so tired of every damn christian on this board turning every damn discussion onto a sermon.

What part of this dont you get??

No one chooses to be born.

It just happens.

What you want me to believe, is that simply by being born, I am cast a sinner, and this very grievious sin of being born, is more than enough to cast me into Hell?

What kind of bullshit is that?

What sort of benevolent being would do such a thing, for an action that isnt even remotely bad, or even my fault if it were?

Christians go on and on about how "loving" thier God is, but when any such being would willingly send someone to eternal torment, for nothing more than taking your very first breath....what kind of hippocritical bullshit is that?

Listen very carefully....

There is no such thing as "original sin".

Its merely a way for a fledging church, to gain converts over 2000 years ago, to an unpopular religion.

Asking nicely, and promising them eternal rewards wouldnt do it.
EVERY religion does that.

Yours however, told them that if they DIDNT join, they would suffer eternal torment, damnation, pain etc.....
They did this by attempting to imply that the action of living, is a sin.

How you cant see this for the bullshit that it truly is....is beyond me.
Read some history books.

It helped everyone that follows his teachings. He is the trailbreaker that leads the rest of us out of death as well. He is the path, the only bridge, that reaches across the chasm of death/sin and into eternal life.

So Whoop Dee Doo and Hallelujah Too, because that would be about right, it's a huge gift and an eternal path for salvation because of the conquering of the death/sin!


Tell me...

Can you show me a non-christian source to prove that Jesus even actually existed, let alone was ressurected?

No, you cant.

Maybe you should consider that, before you get on that soapbox.

I get so tired of every damn christian on this board turning every damn discussion onto a sermon.

You asked the question, you made the accusations of unfairness and accused Christianity of damning you for nothing you deserved. I answered first the fact that you can be born in a bad place to no fault of yours but it would still be a bad place and instead of thanking your rescuer you blame your rescuer for your being in the bad place at all... Your sermon is anti-Christ, my post was pro-Christ, how is yours not a sermon and the other is? Nonsense, you just got upset that you thought your accusations were either rhetorical or non-answerable.

What part of this dont you get??

No one chooses to be born.

It just happens.

What you want me to believe, is that simply by being born, I am cast a sinner, and this very grievious sin of being born, is more than enough to cast me into Hell?

What kind of bullshit is that?

You can believe what you want, but if you are born, you will die, if you believe something other than that, than you are mistaken. Being born is inherently unfair simply look around the world, to believe life is ‘fair’ and Christianity lies about it being unfair, is to believe in a world that does not exists, one can simply look around and see that we aren’t all born with equal opportunity.

What sort of benevolent being would do such a thing, for an action that isnt even remotely bad, or even my fault if it were?

What part of being born didn't you want to happen? We are born and we are guaranteed a death, did you want the opportunity of being born taken away? All of us are born into death, some of us are going to be rescued. Better to have been born and given a chance than to never had have a chance at all.

Christians go on and on about how "loving" thier God is, but when any such being would willingly send someone to eternal torment, for nothing more than taking your very first breath....what kind of hippocritical bullshit is that?

God is patient because he wants all of us to be saved, he waits because he wants all to come to him, he would that everyone accepts Christ. He is loving because he is love. Love is not simply some chemical reaction of attraction and protection you feel via endorphins released via the glands in your head.

Listen very carefully....

There is no such thing as "original sin".

Its merely a way for a fledging church, to gain converts over 2000 years ago, to an unpopular religion.

Asking nicely, and promising them eternal rewards wouldnt do it.
EVERY religion does that.

Yours however, told them that if they DIDNT join, they would suffer eternal torment, damnation, pain etc.....
They did this by attempting to imply that the action of living, is a sin.

How you cant see this for the bullshit that it truly is....is beyond me.
Read some history books.

You might as well continue to preach that no one ever dies and there is no such thing as death, but it's pretty obvious to the rest of us that there IS death and everyone does it eventually. Some of us recognize that we need help if we want to survive the event of death, some of us accept the gift of eternal life.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You say that because some accept and others do not that it is not fair for everyone, but I disagree, as long as we are all given the opportunity, even if we don’t know it, then it is fair. Not everyone in the class has to accept the offer of a gumdrop before the rest of the people in the class that did want to accept it are allowed to eat the gift. It would be unfair if everyone in class had to accept it before anyone else was allowed to have it.

Tell me...

Can you show me a non-christian source to prove that Jesus even actually existed, let alone was ressurected?

No, you cant.

Maybe you should consider that, before you get on that soapbox.

I do not need to show a non-Christian proof of Jesus, the Holy Spirit can speak for himself and death is self-evident, I don’t need to prove that exists either.

As to the soapbox, I can’t use it until you get off it first.

According to most Christians, Jesus Christ died in an extremely painful way on a cross, to absolve humanity from original sin. They state that this is a reason to worship and respect him, and up to a point I agree.

What I do not understand is why those same people do not worship those millions of other humans that died to save others. The soldiers that fell defending their country. The men that pushed babycarriages out of the way of trucks, to get hit themselves. The sailors that jumped out the lifeboat so it would not sink and rations would be sufficient for the remaining occupants. The fireman that saved the woman, but perished in the flames.

What did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ? Is someone willing to die to save another less special than someone who dies to save everyone ?
Considering that Jesus died by his own choice, and only remained dead for three days before getting to come back from the dead and then go straight to Heaven, I'd say his sacrifice was significantly less than all the many people who died against their wishes and had to remain dead. I think Jesus suffered a whole lot less than the people (like Ghandi, for instance) who have to spend eternity in Hell.

Jesus dying to absolve me of sins that somebody else committed doesn't really count for much; somebody dying in order to save the life of my pet turtle would mean much more.

.*snip*.

Jesus conquered death for everyone, even Gandhi, I don't know about your turtle though. Everyone dies, the gift is eternal life, that’s what Jesus died for. He suffered for our sins, but his death was for our iniquities and he needed to build a route out of death and into life.

Jesus conquered death for everyone, even Gandhi, I don't know about your turtle though.

Jesus supposedly died to absolve me of sins I never committed. Thus, I am as thankful for his sacrifice as I am sorry for the sins I didn't commit. :)


Everyone dies, the gift is eternal life, that’s what Jesus died for.

I don't want eternal life. If Jesus actually died in order to inflict me with it, why should I be happy about that? It sounds like he caused himself a great deal of pain to force me to have something I don't want. That's just odd.


He suffered for our sins, but his death was for our iniquities and he needed to build a route out of death and into life.
If I'm going to worship a God, I think I'll pick one who is better at problem solving. If the best your God can come up with is, "Hmm, I think I'll create a demigod incarnation of myself who can go to Earth and get tortured to death," then I believe I'll start looking into Vishnu instead. ;)

He is the son of God and his mother was a virgin, so there was no sin involved in his conception. He is perfect, therefore he is the only man worthy of worship.

...or something. I actually know next to nothing about christianity. *Flees*


VH is quite correct ... Jesus is the Son of God and his mother was a virgin, so there was no sin involved in his conception. He is perfect, therefore he is the only man worthy of worship. Further, I actually do know about christianity and I will not flee. :cool:

VH is quite correct ... Jesus is the Son of God and his mother was a virgin, so there was no sin involved in his conception.

If Mary was married to Josef yet still a virgin, she was not a good spouse under Gods own law.

Jesus supposedly died to absolve me of sins I never committed. Thus, I am as thankful for his sacrifice as I am sorry for the sins I didn't commit. :)


You choose to continue to live in the world, Jesus offers you a hand to get out of the muck, you refuse the helping hand.

I don't want eternal life. If Jesus actually died in order to inflict me with it, why should I be happy about that? It sounds like he caused himself a great deal of pain to force me to have something I don't want. That's just odd.

He offered it to you, he didn't force you to accept it.

He did it for you, but he did it for the rest of us as well. Some of us accepted, some of you do not... If it was worth it, you'd have to ask him ~ as for me, I'm very thankful.


If I'm going to worship a God, I think I'll pick one who is better at problem solving. If the best your God can come up with is, "Hmm, I think I'll create a demigod incarnation of myself who can go to Earth and get tortured to death," then I believe I'll start looking into Vishnu instead. ;)

You can make up any god you want. But there is one true God, you ignore him or disbelieve all you want, he's not going to 'force' you to have faith. You're allowed to reject him and eternal life, don't worry, he'll let you.


(p.s., you could be bothered to read at least the last two pages of a thread next time, the conversation could move along faster if we didn't have to repeat ourselves over and over again for the people that keep making the same statements as others before them... if it's more than two pages back or so, I wouldn't say anything.)

You choose to continue to live in the world, Jesus offers you a hand to get out of the muck, you refuse the helping hand.

I don't see this world as muck, nor do I want to get out of it. Anybody who is trying to get me out of this world is acting against my wishes.


He offered it to you, he didn't force you to accept it.

Well, you said he gave me the gift of eternal life. If he didn't, then that's fine.


He did it for you, but he did it for the rest of us as well.

I knew this kid in high school who was a member of this kiddie-KKK group. He used to tell me that he and his fellow "white warriors" were fighting on behalf of me and all the other non-blacks in our country.

I don't really appreciate when people say they are doing things on my behalf even though those things go directly against my values and beliefs. I don't think it's honorable to expect people to thank you for doing something that they neither asked for nor wanted.


Some of us accepted, some of you do not... If it was worth it, you'd have to ask him ~ as for me, I'm very thankful.

I don't need to ask anybody whether it was worth it; it wasn't, to me. I don't want eternal life, just like I don't want warts, and I don't need somebody else to tell me what I do and don't want.


You can make up any god you want. But there is one true God, you ignore him or disbelieve all you want, he's not going to 'force' you to have faith. You're allowed to reject him and eternal life, don't worry, he'll let you.

Don't worry, the Flying Spaghetti Monster will forgive you for your blasphemous Jesus-worship. :)


(p.s., you could be bothered to read at least the last two pages of a thread next time, the conversation could move along faster if we didn't have to repeat ourselves over and over again for the people that keep making the same statements as others before them... if it's more than two pages back or so, I wouldn't say anything.)
In my experience, sermonizers are going to say exactly the same things to me regardless of what I say to them. Your post has not done anything to challenge my belief on this subject.

You can make up any god you want. But there is one true God, you ignore him or disbelieve all you want, he's not going to 'force' you to have faith. You're allowed to reject him and eternal life, don't worry, he'll let you.

For me Pootwaddle, it's not a question of "making up any god" - in my case, I glimpsed what (for me) is God in actuality. This off-the-rack version - the "one size fits all" God - now there's a false God if ever there was one. I do and will reject all this flim-flammery, this sanctimonious sales-pitch of supposed eternal life - because God, as revealed oh-so briefly to me, didn't seem all that much concerned about a bunch of preconceived notions and pronouncements that certain human beings (with a highly vested interest in promulgating their particular brand of organized mass worship) had decided to insert into his metaphysical mouth.

(p.s., you could be bothered to read at least the last two pages of a thread next time, the conversation could move along faster if we didn't have to repeat ourselves over and over again for the people that keep making the same statements as others before them... if it's more than two pages back or so, I wouldn't say anything.)

Thanks for your precious advice - you could avail yourself of it as well, I should think.

You can make up any god you want. But there is one true God

And 15 million religions all claiming they are the only ones that know who He is.

I don't see this world as muck, nor do I want to get out of it. Anybody who is trying to get me out of this world is acting against my wishes.

No one is acting against your wishes, you are welcome to stay in the world all you want. Anyone that loves the world will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Well, you said he gave me the gift of eternal life. If he didn't, then that's fine.

He offered it, and he still does, he's not going to force you to take it.


I knew this kid in high school who was a member of this kiddie-KKK group. He used to tell me that he and his fellow "white warriors" were fighting on behalf of me and all the other non-blacks in our country.

I don't really appreciate when people say they are doing things on my behalf even though those things go directly against my values and beliefs. I don't think it's honorable to expect people to thank you for doing something that they neither asked for nor wanted.

Then don't thank him. What's your problem with other people accepting it? It was offered to you, you have nothing to complain about.


I don't need to ask anybody whether it was worth it; it wasn't, to me. I don't want eternal life, just like I don't want warts, and I don't need somebody else to tell me what I do and don't want.

Who said you had to want it? Are you arguing with what is actually being said or some other conversation?


Don't worry, the Flying Spaghetti Monster will forgive you for your blasphemous Jesus-worship. :)

Do you feel better now? Good.


In my experience, sermonizers are going to say exactly the same things to me regardless of what I say to them. Your post has not done anything to challenge my belief on this subject.

So saith the black kettle.

Vise-versa as well, I'm sure.

No one is acting against your wishes, you are welcome to stay in the world all you want. Anyone that loves the world will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Ok, so we're back to the original question of the thread. Why should I worship Jesus? According to you, all he did was get himself killed in order to give me something I don't want.


He offered it, and he still does, he's not going to force you to take it.

That's great. The KKK does exactly the same thing; they offer me something I don't want. How does this relate to the original question of the thread?


Then don't thank him. What's your problem with other people accepting it? It was offered to you, you have nothing to complain about.

You seem to have totally lost track of the point of this thread. The subject is, "Why do we only worship Jesus?" I responded to that topic, by explaining why I view Jesus as less worthy of worship than many other people who have made sacrifices. For somebody who thinks that a) Jesus was capable of delivering eternal life and b) that eternal life is a good thing, maybe it makes sense to worship Jesus. That's totally beside my point, however.


Who said you had to want it? Are you arguing with what is actually being said or some other conversation?

The entire point was why one should worship Jesus. That is what I have been talking about. I haven't the least idea what conversation you are having. :)


So saith the black kettle.

"I know you are, but what am I!!" :D

No one is acting against your wishes, you are welcome to stay in the world all you want. Anyone that loves the world will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

According to you, and the purveyors of the "off-the-rack" version of God, anyway.

Why don't you let people foster their own relationship with God, in order to find out what God wants of them - or does such a thought strike a certain fear into you?

According to you, and the purveyors of the "off-the-rack" version of God, anyway.

Why don't you let people foster their own relationship with God, in order to find out what God wants of them - or does such a thought strike a certain fear into you?
It's a lot more fun to be patronizing and passive-aggressive, I should think. It's nice to have an invisible and intangible all-powerful God, because He will be anything you want Him to be. You can tell people your God loves them, that He gives them all sorts of magical gifts, and you can show mock-sympathy for those who refuse to recognize the magical, intangible gifts that you say your God has offered them. It's a handy way to feel like you've taken the moral high ground over those sad, ungrateful wretchs who refuse to embrace the wonderful bounty that you say your God has offered them.

The problem is, this behavior tends to repulse anybody who doesn't already agree with your vision of your God. So it then becomes very hard to pretend like you're actually concerned about other peoples' happiness or welfare, since you're actively discouraging them from ever developing a relationship with your God.

It's a lot more fun to be patronizing and passive-aggressive, I should think. It's nice to have an invisible and intangible all-powerful God, because He will be anything you want Him to be. You can tell people your God loves them, that He gives them all sorts of magical gifts, and you can show mock-sympathy for those who refuse to recognize the magical, intangible gifts that you say your God has offered them. It's a handy way to feel like you've taken the moral high ground over those sad, ungrateful wretchs who refuse to embrace the wonderful bounty that you say your God has offered them.

The problem is, this behavior tends to repulse anybody who doesn't already agree with your vision of your God. So it then becomes very hard to pretend like you're actually concerned about other peoples' happiness or welfare, since you're actively discouraging them from ever developing a relationship with your God.

This is why ones' relationship with God is and should be an innately personal one - with no room for those who would seek, on this temporal plane, to gain by profit - acting as de facto, ecclesiatical middle-men - interposing themselves between oneself and God.

Frankly, God as exposed himself to me was rightfully happy and proud of this continuum, happier still that I and others like me were capable of wonderment in countenancing his creation - hardly the sort of fellow who would punish sentient beings for loving his creation. That smacks of salesmanship, of cowing current subscribers to a spiritual service to shut up and make with the tithes.

I have a direct line to God - and I'm not buying what the vendors are selling. I'm right with my God, and I still have many miles to go before I sleep. Better that than to spend a lifetime worrying whether I've dotted every i and crossed every t to the satisfaction of some sham of a deity created by committee for the express purpose of keeping people down.

This is why ones' relationship with God is and should be an innately personal one - with no room for those who would seek, on this temporal plane, to gain by profit - acting as de facto, ecclesiatical middle-men - interposing themselves between oneself and God.

Frankly, God as exposed himself to me was rightfully happy and proud of this continuum, happier still that I and others like me were capable of wonderment in countenancing his creation - hardly the sort of fellow who would punish sentient beings for loving his creation. That smacks of salesmanship, of cowing current subscribers to a spiritual service to shut up and make with the tithes.

I have a direct line to God - and I'm not buying what the vendors are selling. I'm right with my God, and I still have many miles to go before I sleep. Better that than to spend a lifetime worrying whether I've dotted every i and crossed every t to the satisfaction of some sham of a deity created by committee for the express purpose of keeping people down.

I am automatically suspiscious of anybody who tries to claim that they are responsible for my happiness. I mistrust anybody who claims that they've done something for my sake without me knowing about it or asking for it, and that I therefore owe them thanks or gratitude. I certainly am not about to trust somebody who tries to sell me "forgiveness" for wrongs I never committed.

What a lovely crock of crap that is.

First, tell me what kind of sin a person can commit while in the womb, or as an infant?

None.

Yet, according to the bible, such an infant will go to hell if he is unbaptised, or not "saved".


According to the Bible? I don't think so.
According to some religions that teach that as if it's in the bible? sure

I am automatically suspiscious of anybody who tries to claim that they are responsible for my happiness. I mistrust anybody who claims that they've done something for my sake without me knowing about it or asking for it, and that I therefore owe them thanks or gratitude. I certainly am not about to trust somebody who tries to sell me "forgiveness" for wrongs I never committed.

I'm just as suspicious of anybody who claims to speak on God's behalf, whether in person or on the printed page. I know what God wants of me, and I don't care what some other person says God wants of me. Some other person can't be any closer to God than I am already, or care to be. We're all equidistant from God.

Clergymen, Imams, Rabbis and all the other layabout charlatans who stand to gain by interposing themselves between people and God can all just fuck off and get real jobs, instead of profiting through hucksterism.

Its really amazing, in All the threads, on Christianty or something associated with it, it is always the same stroy. These people claim that they want an answer, and that if you give them reasons, they will believe or something like that. First, there is a lot of arguing, than, a lot of critiscms from both sides off-topic, and than they all return to the topic. In the end nothing is achieved, only more discontempt at each others, opinions and beliefs. Its quite a disaster really. Altough they say that they want an answer, they are right, they do want an answer but not on the question they are asking. No, they want an answer to their dubious minds, who are in conflict wheter to return/or remain in their religion, not because they want to learn, because they know that in today's world, it is always the skeptic, the doubter, the atheist, who is going to win, and not some Christian or Catholic. That's their aim, to feel better and more secure, while trying to put doubt in others, whose faith is weak, and they are succeding, because, more and more people are leaving Christianity, and not because they chose between Science and Faith, no, the answer is because they thin that Religion is antiquated, only suitable for some priests or antiquated people with very close-minded, anti-life, minds. Also because the Media, that evil tool, that is being manipulated from its original purposes of learning, into a tool to manipulate in every sector of life. It is quite sad that we have arrived in this state. This is a crisis, of which predictions that have been made about it, will turn into stark fact.
I find it that it is useless, to argue with these bunch, because you won't even influence them, you won't be able to express your opinion without someone offending,no, not only that but they make you lose your temper. So it is better to "let them cook in their own stew", and if they want proof, well I tell them jump of a cliff, and than they'll get proof, because they want it so much as they claim they do, that they should do this, and get proof, but ofcourse they will die, but it is their "longtime wish" to get proof eh. We don't need to touch or see to beleive.
We Catholics and Christians should let their kind respond to their questions, let them offend our religion, but don't be drawn into, that prostitutes nest, don't be drawn there, just leave them offending, and than by time they'll get their answer, one way or the other.
Why just we don't stop arguing, and if someone doesn't want to believe in God, let him, the only thing we are doing is getting the bloody mess worse. Altough all the treads on Christianity, have different topics, all have the same aim, to see who is right or not, and believe me, we will never come to a conclusion because we are all humans.

According to the Bible? I don't think so.
According to some religions that teach that as if it's in the bible? sure

You are welcome to your opinion, and... God knows I'd want to believe a foetus couldn't be damned just because it wasn't born.

But, it's milktoast-christianity. According to scripture, you hear the name and accept Jesus as 'messiah', or they toast your ass... foetus or not.

In order to oppose that clear scriptural precedent, you are going to have to find a way to refute it... you'll have to prove biblical inconsistency.

I'm just as suspicious of anybody who claims to speak on God's behalf, whether in person or on the printed page. I know what God wants of me, and I don't care what some other person says God wants of me. Some other person can't be any closer to God than I am already, or care to be. We're all equidistant from God.

Bingo. Anybody who tries to tell me what God does or doesn't think/feel about me is a flim-flam artist.

Its really amazing, in All the threads, on Christianty or something associated with it, it is always the same stroy. These people claim that they want an answer, and that if you give them reasons, they will believe or something like that. First, there is a lot of arguing, than, a lot of critiscms from both sides off-topic, and than they all return to the topic. In the end nothing is achieved, only more discontempt at each others, opinions and beliefs. Its quite a disaster really. Altough they say that they want an answer, they are right, they do want an answer but not on the question they are asking. No, they want an answer to their dubious minds, who are in conflict wheter to return/or remain in their religion, not because they want to learn, because they know that in today's world, it is always the skeptic, the doubter, the atheist, who is going to win, and not some Christian or Catholic. That's their aim, to feel better and more secure, while trying to put doubt in others, whose faith is weak, and they are succeding, because, more and more people are leaving Christianity, and not because they chose between Science and Faith, no, the answer is because they thin that Religion is antiquated, only suitable for some priests or antiquated people with very close-minded, anti-life, minds. Also because the Media, that evil tool, that is being manipulated from its original purposes of learning, into a tool to manipulate in every sector of life. It is quite sad that we have arrived in this state. This is a crisis, of which predictions that have been made about it, will turn into stark fact.
I find it that it is useless, to argue with these bunch, because you won't even influence them, you won't be able to express your opinion without someone offending,no, not only that but they make you lose your temper. So it is better to "let them cook in their own stew", and if they want proof, well I tell them jump of a cliff, and than they'll get proof, because they want it so much as they claim they do, that they should do this, and get proof, but ofcourse they will die, but it is their "longtime wish" to get proof eh. We don't need to touch or see to beleive.
We Catholics and Christians should let their kind respond to their questions, let them offend our religion, but don't be drawn into, that prostitutes nest, don't be drawn there, just leave them offending, and than by time they'll get their answer, one way or the other.

Us skeptics would love to be left alone … too bad so many Christians try to enshrine their morality and beliefs into law

You fuck with my life based on your invisible man in the sky I am sure as hell going to do my best to stop that

Its really amazing, in All the threads, on Christianty or something associated with it, it is always the same stroy. These people claim that they want an answer, and that if you give them reasons, they will believe or something like that. First, there is a lot of arguing, than, a lot of critiscms from both sides off-topic, and than they all return to the topic. In the end nothing is achieved, only more discontempt at each others, opinions and beliefs. Its quite a disaster really. Altough they say that they want an answer, they are right, they do want an answer but not on the question they are asking. No, they want an answer to their dubious minds, who are in conflict wheter to return/or remain in their religion, not because they want to learn, because they know that in today's world, it is always the skeptic, the doubter, the atheist, who is going to win, and not some Christian or Catholic. That's their aim, to feel better and more secure, while trying to put doubt in others, whose faith is weak, and they are succeding, because, more and more people are leaving Christianity, and not because they chose between Science and Faith, no, the answer is because they thin that Religion is antiquated, only suitable for some priests or antiquated people with very close-minded, anti-life, minds. Also because the Media, that evil tool, that is being manipulated from its original purposes of learning, into a tool to manipulate in every sector of life. It is quite sad that we have arrived in this state. This is a crisis, of which predictions that have been made about it, will turn into stark fact.
I find it that it is useless, to argue with these bunch, because you won't even influence them, you won't be able to express your opinion without someone offending,no, not only that but they make you lose your temper. So it is better to "let them cook in their own stew", and if they want proof, well I tell them jump of a cliff, and than they'll get proof, because they want it so much as they claim they do, that they should do this, and get proof, but ofcourse they will die, but it is their "longtime wish" to get proof eh. We don't need to touch or see to beleive.
We Catholics and Christians should let their kind respond to their questions, let them offend our religion, but don't be drawn into, that prostitutes nest, don't be drawn there, just leave them offending, and than by time they'll get their answer, one way or the other.

Done with your insulting, patronising, and generalising?

Atheists and other non-Christians should all jump off cliffs, eh?

I'd have to say, my friend, if a few skeptical questions make you "lose your temper", the fault is likely in your lack of control... not in the doubt. After all, I don't recall the scripture mentioning that Jesus bitchslapped Thomas...?

According to most Christians, Jesus Christ died in an extremely painful way on a cross, to absolve humanity from original sin. They state that this is a reason to worship and respect him, and up to a point I agree.

What I do not understand is why those same people do not worship those millions of other humans that died to save others. The soldiers that fell defending their country. The men that pushed babycarriages out of the way of trucks, to get hit themselves. The sailors that jumped out the lifeboat so it would not sink and rations would be sufficient for the remaining occupants. The fireman that saved the woman, but perished in the flames.

What did Jesus do to make him more worthy of worship than all those other brave heroes ? Is someone willing to die to save another less special than someone who dies to save everyone ?

The Christians that have explained why to worship Jesus have not done a very good job of doing so.

Jesus is both divine and human, as the Son of God, his divinity is why He is worshipped.

Jesus is respected for what he taught and what he did, both living and dying.

The story of 'original sin' explains the fall of mankind from it's original close relationship with God and explains why all sin. The sacrifice Jesus made was not to counteract Eve and Adam's sin, but to absolve individuals of their own personal sins.
Christian doctrine teaches that everyone, even the best of us, sins. If the 'wages of sin are death' then no amount of personal good can counter balance that. Christ's sacrifice absolves of us the penalty we are obligated to pay. We have that penalty for our OWN actions, not Eve's and Adam's. The Genesis story just offers the christian idea of why we as a race all have sin in us.

Accepting this sacrifice means that when standing before God in judgement, we already have a pardon and God can judge us on what we have done with that pardon.

The Christians that have explained why to worship Jesus have not done a very good job of doing so.

Jesus is both divine and human, as the Son of God, his divinity is why He is worshipped.

Jesus is respected for what he taught and what he did, both living and dying.

The story of 'original sin' explains the fall of mankind from it's original close relationship with God and explains why all sin. The sacrifice Jesus made was not to counteract Eve and Adam's sin, but to absolve individuals of their own personal sins.
Christian doctrine teaches that everyone, even the best of us, sins. If the 'wages of sin are death' then no amount of personal good can counter balance that. Christ's sacrifice absolves of us the penalty we are obligated to pay. We have that penalty for our OWN actions, not Eve's and Adam's. The Genesis story just offers the christian idea of why we as a race all have sin in us.

Accepting this sacrifice means that when standing before God in judgement, we already have a pardon and God can judge us on what we have done with that pardon.

If the wages of sin is death, then Jesus must have sinned... since he 'paid the ultimate price', no?

I find it that it is useless, to argue with these bunch, because you won't even influence them, you won't be able to express your opinion without someone offending,no, not only that but they make you lose your temper.

You realise that the attitude of indifference you advocate Christians should take in your post is a direct violation of Gods will, and will send you straight to hell ?

Aside: I seriously *am* interested to know what makes Jesus as a person more special than many other heros in the eyes of Christians. Answers like "he is the son of God" however simply do not cut it for me. I would not condemn Hitlers son for the crimes of his father, and nor do I praise Jesus for the actions of His. I am willing to praise Jesus the Good Man, who died to give me an option to go to heaven (or at least believed he did); but I truly do not see why his sacrifice is more noble than that of a random fireman.

If the wages of sin is death, then Jesus must have sinned... since he 'paid the ultimate price', no?

Death is death of the soul, not death of the physical body, Jesus's body died, but his soul was not lost so didn't die.

Accepting this sacrifice means that when standing before God in judgement, we already have a pardon and God can judge us on what we have done with that pardon.

...and all of it is dependent on God being a micromanaging egotist and a thoroughly judgemental character. Has God struck you thus, in your dealings with him?

Or have you had any dealings with him?

You are welcome to your opinion, and... God knows I'd want to believe a foetus couldn't be damned just because it wasn't born.

But, it's milktoast-christianity. According to scripture, you hear the name and accept Jesus as 'messiah', or they toast your ass... foetus or not.

In order to oppose that clear scriptural precedent, you are going to have to find a way to refute it... you'll have to prove biblical inconsistency.

According to scripture? Again I'm going to say no.
I'm quite aware that has been taught and that there are some loose references that have been bent that way, but I do not believe that it is actually supported scripturally.

Jesus taught that we are responsible for what we know, that the more we know, the more we are responsible for. He both stated it outright and taught it in parable (talents and mena parables for example). An infant or foetus knowing nothing, can be held accountable for nothing.

If the wages of sin is death, then Jesus must have sinned... since he 'paid the ultimate price', no?

if you take the verse literally then.......he did physically die, so you are left with that.

or you could take the verse semi-literally and say that He took on all the sins from everyone and died because of those........

Death is death of the soul, not death of the physical body, Jesus's body died, but his soul was not lost so didn't die.

Well in the long run his body was not lost either ... if I remember the myth right his body was brought up too

Death is death of the soul, not death of the physical body, Jesus's body died, but his soul was not lost so didn't die.

Which makes the whole thing a nonsense - since you cannot prove that any 'soul' has ever 'died', believer or not.

Unless you use the 'real' meaning of 'soul'... in which case, even the Jesus myth involves 'death of the soul'.

According to scripture? Again I'm going to say no.
I'm quite aware that has been taught and that there are some loose references that have been bent that way, but I do not believe that it is actually supported scripturally.

Jesus taught that we are responsible for what we know, that the more we know, the more we are responsible for. He both stated it outright and taught it in parable (talents and mena parables for example). An infant or foetus knowing nothing, can be held accountable for nothing.

I'm leaving this for the moment - to see if one of the Christians cares to show you why you are wrong.

You realise that the attitude of indifference you advocate Christians should take in your post is a direct violation of Gods will, and will send you straight to hell ?

Aside: I seriously *am* interested to know what makes Jesus as a person more special than many other heros in the eyes of Christians. Answers like "he is the son of God" however simply do not cut it for me. I would not condemn Hitlers son for the crimes of his father, and nor do I praise Jesus for the actions of His. I am willing to praise Jesus the Good Man, who died to give me an option to go to heaven (or at least believed he did); but I truly do not see why his sacrifice is more noble than that of a random fireman.

No my attitude is right, sometimes when the situation is too hot, you have to back off, and some of us like me aren't capable of doing that. And no the position I advocate will not send me to hell, if the postion I advocate sends me to hell, than there are many people who are going to hell. And lets make it cleat you don't go to hell, you become hell, there is no fiery pit, or an undergroud storage of lava in which you burn alive for eternity.
And for the aside, I am sorry but I believe that all I had to say I have already said it in previous posts, and thats all I knew, maybe their is someone else who will satisfy you with an answer.

If the wages of sin is death, then Jesus must have sinned... since he 'paid the ultimate price', no?

??
Beg pardon?
Are you attempting to lay some trap here? You're far too familiar with Christian doctrine to make such a simple error.

The only reason his sacrifice means anything for anyone else is that he was 'without sin' so he was able to pay the price for others.

Well in the long run his body was not lost either ... if I remember the myth right his body was brought up too

Except for the bloodstains on the cross, his umbilical cord and his foreskin. All three much sought after relics.

Well in the long run his body was not lost either ... if I remember the myth right his body was brought up too

Yes, sorry I forgot to mention that.

I'm leaving this for the moment - to see if one of the Christians cares to show you why you are wrong.

I don't care to debate with Christians about differences in theology anymore, I asked for scriptural backing the other day and got jumped on for being bitchy and trying to make someone else look stupid. :( I would much rather debate religion with atheists, at least some of you guys can actually stand behind your opinions and not resort to whining.

...and all of it is dependent on God being a micromanaging egotist and a thoroughly judgemental character. Has God struck you thus, in your dealings with him?

Or have you had any dealings with him?


I don't see the dependency that you mention.

He does judge the world though, if that's all you're alluding to.

if you take the verse literally then.......he did physically die, so you are left with that.

or you could take the verse semi-literally and say that He took on all the sins from everyone and died because of those........

I take the whole crucifixion story as a metaphor... I see no reason why anyone should believe ANY of that story is literal... since it works at least as well as metaphor.

Regarding 'Jesus taking on sins'... I don't see how that mechanism works - he was not prepared as a sin offering, and no priests performed the ceremonies required for either a sacrifice or a scapegoat. Thus - I have to assume that Jesus would be (if an offering at all) nothing more than a 'friendship offering'... in other words, the whole crucifixion could be replaced by beans.

I'm leaving this for the moment - to see if one of the Christians cares to show you why you are wrong.

I'm quite aware that some christians will disagree with me, that doesn't make me 'wrong'.

I take the whole crucifixion story as a metaphor... I see no reason why anyone should believe ANY of that story is literal... since it works at least as well as metaphor.

Regarding 'Jesus taking on sins'... I don't see how that mechanism works - he was not prepared as a sin offering, and no priests performed the ceremonies required for either a sacrifice or a scapegoat. Thus - I have to assume that Jesus would be (if an offering at all) nothing more than a 'friendship offering'... in other words, the whole crucifixion could be replaced by beans.
interesting ;)

I don't see the dependency that you mention.

He does judge the world though, if that's all you're alluding to.

So the answer's "no", then I presume, as you didn't bother answering it. Thanks, that's all I needed to know.

I don't care to debate with Christians about differences in theology anymore, I asked for scriptural backing the other day and got jumped on for being bitchy and trying to make someone else look stupid. :( I would much rather debate religion with atheists, at least some of you guys can actually stand behind your opinions and not resort to whining.

But you were right in that thread, and in that instance you were specifically talking about a particular denominations doctrines. Only one person jumped and it didn't look to me as though you were the bitchy one or the one with the problem.

??
Beg pardon?
Are you attempting to lay some trap here? You're far too familiar with Christian doctrine to make such a simple error.

The only reason his sacrifice means anything for anyone else is that he was 'without sin' so he was able to pay the price for others.

I didn't raise the spectre of 'the wages of sin'.

I merely point out that - if mortality is the 'result' of sin, then Jesus either sinned on the cross, sinned earlier in life, or was tainted by the sin of all mankind.

By the way - do you have any Hebrew scripture that supports the idea that a body can sacrifice itself, or that a sin offering must be free of sin?

So the answer's "no", then I presume, as you didn't bother answering it. Thanks, that's all I needed to know.

When did you stop beating your wife?


You can't set up assumptions and presume answers.

I don't care to debate with Christians about differences in theology anymore, I asked for scriptural backing the other day and got jumped on for being bitchy and trying to make someone else look stupid. :( I would much rather debate religion with atheists, at least some of you guys can actually stand behind your opinions and not resort to whining.

Sorry - I had posted a response in here - but it didn't really apply to this post... so I've editd out, and will repost it elsewhere.

You are greatly appreciated, Smunkee. Our differences may be oceans, but, I'm proud to say, we can at least see each other over them. :)

I'm quite aware that some christians will disagree with me, that doesn't make me 'wrong'.

Can't all be right... right?



"For by grace are ye saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8-9

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:15-6

Belief is a requirement. There is no salvation without faith. Thus - embryoes burn in hell.

You can't set up assumptions and presume answers.
The assumption of being judgemental is of your own making.
Accepting this sacrifice means that when standing before God in judgement, we already have a pardon and God can judge us on what we have done with that pardon.
So please answer my question - has God struck you as being an innately judgemental deity, in your personal interactions with him? And, have you had any personal interactions with God?

I don't care to debate with Christians about differences in theology anymore, I asked for scriptural backing the other day and got jumped on for being bitchy and trying to make someone else look stupid. :( I would much rather debate religion with atheists, at least some of you guys can actually stand behind your opinions and not resort to whining.

In the end we feel like we have less invested in if the Christian doctrine is right or wrong … it is an interesting intellectual exercise and one we love to take place in (sometimes)

But unlike Christians TRUE atheists don’t FEEL the personal connection … people get nasty trying to protect something that they feel they have a vested interest in being right.

The simplest answer, in modern terms, is that Jesus had the best PR guy around. If I were starting a new religion (not that Jesus had exactly that in mind, I suspect), I'd want Paul of Tarsus as my front-man.

In the end we feel like we have less invested in if the Christian doctrine is right or wrong … it is an interesting intellectual exercise and one we love to take place in (sometimes)

But unlike Christians TRUE atheists don’t FEEL the personal connection … people get nasty trying to protect something that they feel they have a vested interest in being right.

true. There are a few of you that are more fun to debate with than others, and I think you are right, it's the ones who don't feel a personal connection that are easier for me to debate with, because you guys don't seem to feel attacked by my own belief.

true. There are a few of you that are more fun to debate with than others, and I think you are right, it's the ones who don't feel a personal connection that are easier for me to debate with, because you guys don't seem to feel attacked by my own belief.

Yup it is human nature … there are good Christians too that can overcome the attacked feelings (just like in ANY group) Depubs and you come to mind first off (though I am sure there are many others as well)

Its just human nature in general … some can over come some cant

true. There are a few of you that are more fun to debate with than others, and I think you are right, it's the ones who don't feel a personal connection that are easier for me to debate with, because you guys don't seem to feel attacked by my own belief.
You know, I've gotten yelled at for expecting sources and supports for people's arguments, too. I've had people tell me I'm mean and I'm trying to make people look stupid. I've been told I'm a nasty elitest for presenting source lists. I've even had people tell me that I "don't think for myself" because I dare to have factual supports for what I say.

I don't think it's necessarily about religion or personal emotional investment in the subject; I think there are just some people who get uber defensive if they're asked to give any supports for their assertions.

I know a lot of Christians around NS General who aren't anything like this, so I don't think it's the Christianity that is the problem. I just think some people have lousy attitudes, and those people often like to use religion as a shield to protect them from being criticized for their bad attitudes.

You know, I've gotten yelled at for expecting sources and supports for people's arguments, too. I've had people tell me I'm mean and I'm trying to make people look stupid. I've been told I'm a nasty elitest for presenting source lists. I've even had people tell me that I "don't think for myself" because I dare to have factual supports for what I say.

I don't think it's necessarily about religion or personal emotional investment in the subject; I think there are just some people who get uber defensive if they're asked to give any supports for their assertions.

I know a lot of Christians around NS General who aren't anything like this, so I don't think it's the Christianity that is the problem. I just think some people have lousy attitudes, and those people often like to use religion as a shield to protect them from being criticized for their bad attitudes.

Quoted because thats why I was trying to get at but bottle did so better then I lol

Can't all be right... right?


Depends.
I don't take that as an absolute.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8-9

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:15-6

Belief is a requirement. There is no salvation without faith. Thus - embryoes burn in hell.

Your "Thus - ..." is just chock full of assumption.
From what does an embryo need salvation?
Is an embryo a soul in need of salvation at all?
What is hell?
Why burn?

And again, since the embryo is not given much (or anything), not very much (or nothing) will be required of it.

The assumption of being judgemental is of your own making.

So please answer my question - has God struck you as being an innately judgemental deity, in your personal interactions with him? And, have you had any personal interactions with God?

Judgemental is your word and it is loaded with negative connotation.
God is THE Judge.

His attributes include just, merciful and forgiving. Therfore I would not use the word "judgemental" to describe God based on my interactions with God.

Judgemental is your word and it is loaded with negative connotation.
God is THE Judge.

His attributes include just, merciful and forgiving. Therfore I would not use the word "judgemental" to describe God based on my interactions with God.

If God is THE Judge, as you submit, then it naturally follows that God is judgemental, all connotations positive or negative aside. The attributes you assign to him (just, merciful, forgiving) all take as a precept, this notion of him presiding over others, sitting in judgement of them. Interesting.

And not the product of an actual personal interaction, either - but the regurgitation of elements pertaining to the "one-size-fits-all" version of God as purveyed by those who stand to gain in the temporal arena.

That's either twice as, or less than half as, interesting as the "God-as-micromanager" pose. Depending how you look at it.

If God is THE Judge, as you submit, then it naturally follows that God is judgemental, all connotations positive or negative aside. The attributes you assign to him (just, merciful, forgiving) all take as a precept, this notion of him presiding over others, sitting in judgement of them. Interesting.


Yes, absolutely. Again though, I will not use the word judgemental because it does NOT have any positive connotations at all. We have many good judges in the world that judge most every day of their life. But you can't ever use the word judgemental as an english language compliment.


And not the product of an actual personal interaction, either - but the regurgitation of elements pertaining to the "one-size-fits-all" version of God as purveyed by those who stand to gain in the temporal arena.


Untrue. You presume far too much on what my personal interaction has been or has not been.


That's either twice as, or less than half as, interesting as the "God-as-micromanager" pose. Depending how you look at it.

LOL, perhaps.

Depends.
I don't take that as an absolute.


I'm not sure how that would work. Either there is a god (or gods) or.... there isn't. Whether or not you or I believe might be open to interpretation, and might not involve an absolute... but, whether or not there is a god (or gods) MUST be absolute.

Similarly - either one interpretation or version of scripture MUST be right, or another version must be. Or none. But, if they all disagree, they can't ALL be right.


Your "Thus - ..." is just chock full of assumption.
From what does an embryo need salvation?
Is an embryo a soul in need of salvation at all?
What is hell?
Why burn?

And again, since the embryo is not given much (or anything), not very much (or nothing) will be required of it.

Flesh is corrupt. Sin is of the flesh. A foetus is 'flesh'. Thus, a foetus has an inbuilt 'sin nature', unless it is somehow protected from that sin nature, by salvation through grace - which - we are explicitly told, requires an act of faith.

Foetuses are not well known for their acts of faith, or any other action requiring actual cognition... thus, they are damned.


As for the questions of 'what is hell?' and 'why burn'.... it's not my religion, I'm just using the terminology I hear so often. The specifics of damnation don't much matter to me... since I think each 'age' redefines 'hell' and 'damnation' to best suit their times.

I'm not sure how that would work. Either there is a god (or gods) or.... there isn't. Whether or not you or I believe might be open to interpretation, and might not involve an absolute... but, whether or not there is a god (or gods) MUST be absolute.

Similarly - either one interpretation or version of scripture MUST be right, or another version must be. Or none. But, if they all disagree, they can't ALL be right.


Again, that depends.
Some issues it might be important to be 'right', others, I don't think matter so much and perhaps several ways of approaching it are just as 'right' as others.

John the Baptist refrained from alcohol and rich foods.
Jesus drank wine and ate what he chose.
Scripture supports both, but you wouldn't get that impression from many Christians that are 'married' to one choice or the other.


Flesh is corrupt. Sin is of the flesh. A foetus is 'flesh'. Thus, a foetus has an inbuilt 'sin nature', unless it is somehow protected from that sin nature, by salvation through grace - which - we are explicitly told, requires an act of faith.

Foetuses are not well known for their acts of faith, or any other action requiring actual cognition... thus, they are damned.


Having a 'sin nature' doesn't mean they have actually sinned yet. Like all of us, they will fail and sin, IF they grow enough to have the chance.


As for the questions of 'what is hell?' and 'why burn'.... it's not my religion, I'm just using the terminology I hear so often. The specifics of damnation don't much matter to me... since I think each 'age' redefines 'hell' and 'damnation' to best suit their times.

I agree fully on how 'hell' and 'damnation' are redefined, which is why I question it so much.
I don't trust things just because it is frequently used terminology.

Jesus and Moses used guns to defeat the Romans.

Again, that depends.
Some issues it might be important to be 'right', others, I don't think matter so much and perhaps several ways of approaching it are just as 'right' as others.

John the Baptist refrained from alcohol and rich foods.
Jesus drank wine and ate what he chose.
Scripture supports both, but you wouldn't get that impression from many Christians that are 'married' to one choice or the other.


I don't think this is a gray area at all. If Paul and Jesus fail to be unified on something, and you call yourself a Christian, it seems obvious to me that you ignore the commentator, and behave as illustrated by the alleged 'messiah'.

If you are not a Christian, you can still take the good advice claimed as the teachings of Jesus, those of any moral/philosophical/religious structure you embrace... or you can base your decisions on the actual pragmatic realities.


Having a 'sin nature' doesn't mean they have actually sinned yet. Like all of us, they will fail and sin, IF they grow enough to have the chance.


The flesh is sinful. We are conceived in 'sin', and we are born in sin. If you doubt it - you might want to check the Old Testament... it is made quite clear that birth is an 'unclean' process.



I agree fully on how 'hell' and 'damnation' are redefined, which is why I question it so much.
I don't trust things just because it is frequently used terminology.

Neither do I. On this, we agree.