NationStates Jolt Archive

And quite rightly....a very interesting and well written article regarding the trashing of the IDF.

FRESNO, CA (August 19, 2006) - It's not easy being right all the time. Way back on July 23, when all the suckers in the Mainstream Media were passing on the bullshit about Israel expelling Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon, I said Hezbollah was going to win every round of the fight. I took a lot of heat for that, but now, when you look through the smoking ruins of Northern Israel and Southern Lebanon, you see two things: the yellow Hezzie flag flying high, and the fat face of your favorite War Nerd sticking his tongue out at all the better-paid pundits who got it wrong as usual.

http://www.exile.ru/2006-August-11/gophers_by_tko.html

And you got it wrong on all the photos of "civilian vehicles destroyed by air attacks".

So?

And you got it wrong on all the photos of "civilian vehicles destroyed by air attacks".

So?

Please, if you are going to post something please make it either amusing or at least lucid...

Please, if you are going to post something please make it either amusing or at least lucid...
Go to the What's In A Photo? thread, and see for yourself.

Go to the What's In A Photo? thread, and see for yourself.

Thats a little bit better...at least I know what you are talking about.

This is my only post on the thread - http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11587494&postcount=10

DK

the pics are hosted at photobucket...please provide reference for the pictures.

If you are going to take the media to task for bad reporting then you should at least follow some standards...even if the media does occasionally fall short.

Now I have no idea what you think is incorrect here but just the fact you seem to think you can take me to task based on a single post from a different thread tells me that you are still not quite understanding of lucidity.

The article is there with a link - that'll be your reference.

Taking to task - the article is sourced and follows certain standards for writing an opinion based article. If you can find fault in the article itself please be my guest and raise them here or with the author.

But do not presume to engage me in debate by just posting drivel. If you have a point to make...make it.

:rolleyes: :headbang: :headbang:

Thats a little bit better...at least I know what you are talking about.

Did I say the article was incorrect? No. Did I say you were incorrect? No.

Did you bother to read the rest of the other thread? No.

I showed the links on Yahoo to the AP photos - including the AP captions, which are false.

I'm not one of the people (like the majority here) who believe that only "experts" can come to a conclusion about something. They live in a world where only NBA players play basketball, and only concert pianists play the piano.

The military "analysts" and "experts" you see on CNN and whatnot are very often wrong. Nothing new here.

Whoopie.

"Nyah nyah. Told you so"". Such a great attitude.

I actually feel sorry for some of the reservists from the IDF- according to some reports there was a shortage of basic supplies for them (water, food for example).

Did I say the article was incorrect? No. Did I say you were incorrect? No.

errr yes you did...your first ever post to me...

And you got it wrong on all the photos of "civilian vehicles destroyed by air attacks". - Post #2 on this thread.

Really from this point onwards you are on a losing streak....

Did you bother to read the rest of the other thread? No.

Infact I did read the other thread. That'll be strike two...

I showed the links on Yahoo to the AP photos - including the AP captions, which are false.

I'm not one of the people (like the majority here) who believe that only "experts" can come to a conclusion about something. They live in a world where only NBA players play basketball, and only concert pianists play the piano.

Amazing - I was talking to DK (who provide the information I asked for)....not you..

Strike three

and...


YER OUTTA HERE TROLL BOI!


muppet

:D

Whoopie.

"Nyah nyah. Told you so"". Such a great attitude.

I actually feel sorry for some of the reservists from the IDF- according to some reports there was a shortage of basic supplies for them (water, food for example).

It was fun to talk to the CNN guys just before the 1991 Gulf War.

Fun to see how fucking stupid and uneducated about military strategy they were. They stood right there and saw us do the 1st ID feint, and didn't catch on. They believed, up to the last minute, that we were actually going to throw ourselves on barbed wire, step on land mines, and be burned to death by the thousands in fiery ditches.

They all got it wrong then, too.

Amazing - I was talking to DK (who provide the information I asked for)....not you..


I am DK... never thought you would strike out swinging at air like that...

The military "analysts" and "experts" you see on CNN and whatnot are very often wrong. Nothing new here.

True...remember the AQ underground bunkers with huge controll rooms and barracks? Was that Cheney or Rumsfeld on CNN?

The really interesting thing is that it shows what complacency and over confidence can do to a commander and his army in grasping defeat from the jaws of victory....

*snip*
muppet

:D

No, that's another thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=497086). :p

True...remember the AQ underground bunkers with huge controll rooms and barracks? Was that Cheney or Rumsfeld on CNN?

I wasn't referring to DoD officials they interview. I was talking about the retired officers they use as military analysts.

Rubiconic, I am Sedation Ministry.

Rubiconic, I am Sedation Ministry.

No, I am Sedation Ministry!

Sorry, had the whole Spartacus thing going in my head. :p

No, I am Sedation Ministry!

Sorry, had the whole Spartacus thing going in my head. :p

Now that's funny. Rubiconic is one of those people with no sense of humor.

I am DK... never thought you would strike out swinging at air like that...

No...not really...all thats happened is that you have shown yourself to be a troll.

You don't think I was posting without the suspicion that it was really you I posting at?

But as with all the rest of the 101 Fighting Keyboarders you just got a little bit excited and well...suffered a premature ejactulation by revealing yourself. It's just too easy with you and your ilk.

VONNERS - D/N/T

Rubiconic, I am Sedation Ministry.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Its the Ministry of Truth! :eek: :eek:

*runs for the hills*

No, that's another thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=497086). :p

LOL!!!

PIIIGGGS IN SPPPPAAACE! :)

Whoopie.

"Nyah nyah. Told you so"". Such a great attitude.

I actually feel sorry for some of the reservists from the IDF- according to some reports there was a shortage of basic supplies for them (water, food for example).

Yeah...well you know what nerds are like right? :)

The reservists have been demostrating about what happened...they want answers...will they get them?

LOL!!!

PIIIGGGS IN SPPPPAAACE! :)

One of my favourites. :D

One of my favourites. :D

Oh...sorry....It can't be one of mine...it seems I am not meant to have a sense of humour! :(

Fek that....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aAiwFe2UNRo LOLOL!!!

Seems to me that some are not willing to accept some truthage...ah well...

What I do find interesting is the utter uselessness of Mosad and the 'Bet...remember back in the day when a Hezz backed Egyptian group took a bunch of Russian diplomats hostage...

Russians found out who did it via their contacts and paid a visit to the 'Dear Leaders' old man...

Found the next day dead on the outskirts...

Hezz released the hostages...

The Isreali were not afraid of that kind of action...back in the day...now? Just use US intel when needed and of course a big fuck you to the US when it wants something. Nice! Reminds me of my nations' relationship with the US but this time we're the ones getting screwed...but thats another discussion for another thread.

So is Isreal going to recover from this? The fact that Isreal totally fucked up this war is a massive shock to me and many others. Afterall everyone had taken the Isrealis to be the best. Period.

Seems to me that some are not willing to accept some truthage...ah well...

What I do find interesting is the utter uselessness of Mosad and the 'Bet...remember back in the day when a Hezz backed Egyptian group took a bunch of Russian diplomats hostage...

Russians found out who did it via their contacts and paid a visit to the 'Dear Leaders' old man...

Found the next day dead on the outskirts...

Hezz released the hostages...

The Isreali were not afraid of that kind of action...back in the day...now? Just use US intel when needed and of course a big fuck you to the US when it wants something. Nice! Reminds me of my nations' relationship with the US but this time we're the ones getting screwed...but thats another discussion for another thread.

So is Isreal going to recover from this? The fact that Isreal totally fucked up this war is a massive shock to me and many others. Afterall everyone had taken the Isrealis to be the best. Period.


You're not allowed to assassinate people's relatives, friends, and creditors nowadays. Amnesty International will complain.

You're not allowed to assassinate people's relatives, friends, and creditors nowadays. Amnesty International will complain.

Another case of premature ejaculation there troll boi?

:rolleyes:

Another case of premature ejaculation there troll boi?

:rolleyes:

Hey, it's not my complaint. I would be more than happy for our security services, both domestic and international, to carry out killings on a widespread and regular basis against terrorists convicted in absentia in star chamber trials back in the US.

You know, to give that rubber stamp of judicial approval.

Hey, it's not my complaint. I would be more than happy for our security services, both domestic and international, to carry out killings on a widespread and regular basis against terrorists convicted in absentia in star chamber trials back in the US.

You know, to give that rubber stamp of judicial approval.

LOL You know that is a pretty lame piece of bait you are laying out.

Maybe you need the equiv to a troll pump coz...yours is, well....just too small in the sense of replying to the content...malnurishing to debate as it is and all.

Be my guest to post again once you've raised your game...you've got about 50 years or so before I die but I suspect you might need much much more time.

LOL You know that is a pretty lame piece of bait you are laying out.

Why is it lame? It's better than what we supposedly plan for Bin Laden, if we catch up with him.

They're probably going to bring his head back in a bowling ball bag, no questions asked. No trial, nothing.

Ask yourself: have you ever wondered why we're not bringing new inmates to Guantanamo anymore?

Khalid Sheik Mohammed? And where is he now?

Why is it lame? It's better than what we supposedly plan for Bin Laden, if we catch up with him.

They're probably going to bring his head back in a bowling ball bag, no questions asked. No trial, nothing.

Ask yourself: have you ever wondered why we're not bringing new inmates to Guantanamo anymore?

Khalid Sheik Mohammed? And where is he now?

My god you are so lame at trolling.

Here is a possible scenario -

I say (because you expect me or someone else to) due process...and then you'll just prematurely ejaculate all over this thread again in a fit of wankery.

Of course because your area of expertise is the 'talking point' your effluent will consist of weak water and a whole load of crap.

Go home troll, I have grown tired of you.

I really think that you two should just get a room and fuck. I mean you could cut the sexual tension between you with a knife ;)

Of course because your area of expertise is the 'talking point' your effluent will consist of weak water and a whole load of crap.


Thought you would get around to saying "talking point" again.

Why don't you just post a link to something Karl Rove has said that matches what I posted exactly, if that's what you think I'm posting. I mean, if your tinfoil hat is properly adjusted, you should be picking up the signal that I'm really a paid agent of Karl Rove, and have a full time job posting on a random Internet forum.

Or, I actually believe what I'm saying.

Sorry, not a troll. Willing to discuss and consider almost anything, but not a troll.

Saying I'm one won't make it so. Consider those who have lodged complaints in Moderation, only to fail.

I really think that you two should just get a room and fuck. I mean you could cut the sexual tension between you with a knife ;)
No, he strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't give me a reacharound.

I really think that you two should just get a room and fuck. I mean you could cut the sexual tension between you with a knife ;)

Mancs...always sex on the brain :)

No, he strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't give me a reacharound.

ewwww

And quite rightly....a very interesting and well written article regarding the trashing of the IDF.

FRESNO, CA (August 19, 2006) - It's not easy being right all the time. Way back on July 23, when all the suckers in the Mainstream Media were passing on the bullshit about Israel expelling Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon, I said Hezbollah was going to win every round of the fight. I took a lot of heat for that, but now, when you look through the smoking ruins of Northern Israel and Southern Lebanon, you see two things: the yellow Hezzie flag flying high, and the fat face of your favorite War Nerd sticking his tongue out at all the better-paid pundits who got it wrong as usual.

http://www.exile.ru/2006-August-11/gophers_by_tko.html

He has a problem. Hezbollah did not win in this war and neither did Israel. The IDF was not thrashed by a long shot so to say that they were is ignoring facts in evidence.

He has a problem. Hezbollah did not win in this war and neither did Israel. The IDF was not thrashed by a long shot so to say that they were is ignoring facts in evidence.

Ok...

It seems to me that the Isreali's who served are saying that it was a debacle...

http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/special-reports-storypage.jsp?id=3090

And there's trouble at home for Israel's leaders - hundreds of reservists returning from the frontlines furious over the handling of the war have staged angry protests - calling on the Prime Minister to resign.

The discontent isn't confined to the rank and file.

In an exclusive interview with Channel 4 News - a senior tank commander says at the height of the offensive he disobeyed orders - refusing to send his men into high-risk battle because they just weren't ready.

Now I'm sorry but if anyone tried this in the IDF even 5 years ago would have been handed their arse on a platter.

*snip*

You are missing the fact that Hezbollah got thoroughly trashed themselves. Their infrastructure got bombed and decimated. Command and control functions were leveled. Transportation routes for their supplies got destroyed. They were forced to accept an increased numbers of UN troops. On top of that, the Lebanonese Army also is deploying down south.

Now that we got what is going on against Hezbollah, it renders this story a wash as neither side won and neither side lost.

You are missing the fact that Hezbollah got thoroughly trashed themselves. Their infrastructure got bombed and decimated. Command and control functions were leveled. Transportation routes for their supplies got destroyed. They were forced to accept an increased numbers of UN troops. On top of that, the Lebanonese Army also is deploying down south.

Now that we got what is going on against Hezbollah, it renders this story a wash as neither side won and neither side lost.
What you don't understand, but what the War Nerd does and I've been reading his articles for a while and he seems to know his stuff, is that none of that stuff really matters to Hizbollah. What good does intact command and control and secure supply lines do to a force like Hizbollah, if they're not going to use them and become increasingly marginalised? So they pick a fight with Israel and don't do too badly, especially considering the dent they gave to the IDF's reputation. In return, in order to take out these c&c elements and their supply lines Israel confirms what Hizbollah have been saying about them in order to justify their own importance to the lebanese, by killing civilians by the bucketload and blowing up bridges and whatnot. So Hizbollah end up with what they wanted, support, potential recruits and justification for their own existance. The rest of it just isn't important to them.

You are missing the fact that Hezbollah got thoroughly trashed themselves. Their infrastructure got bombed and decimated. Command and control functions were leveled. Transportation routes for their supplies got destroyed. They were forced to accept an increased numbers of UN troops. On top of that, the Lebanonese Army also is deploying down south.

Now that we got what is going on against Hezbollah, it renders this story a wash as neither side won and neither side lost.

Right....so when the head of the IDF ....

has publicly admitted to failings in the conflict with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon.

In a letter to troops, he said it had exposed shortcomings in the military's logistics, operations and command.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5282548.stm

he's either lying or saving his neck?

Reservists are demostration on streets demanding Omerts resignation...that'll be for his great popularity as a wartime leader will it? Or a realisation that the IDF was beaten by a 'rag tag' army? (rag tag my arse btw...those new RGP-29 are serious weaponry...the change in tactics...the way they have learned fire discipline....).

No one would expect IDF tanks to be killed. But they did.

Of course Leb got hammered....in the mind of Hezz it was accpetable losses...the best they hoped for was a bloody nose for the IDF...instead they held the IDF...and succeeded in preventing the Isreali's in achieving thier target...the obliteration of Hezz...IDF lost.

Of course Leb got hammered....in the mind of Hezz it was accpetable losses...the best they hoped for was a bloody nose for the IDF...instead they held the IDF...and succeeded in preventing the Isreali's in achieving thier target...the obliteration of Hezz...IDF lost.

Ostensibly, the goal of Hez in this was the release of their prisoners held in Israeli prisons, and the Shebaa Farms area.

Not one prisoner released - in fact, more taken.
Not one centimeter of Shebaa Farms given to Hezbollah - still not part of Lebanon, by UN resolution.

Sounds like a stalemate to me, which is usually what you get after a ceasefire.

Right....so when the head of the IDF ....

has publicly admitted to failings in the conflict with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon.

In a letter to troops, he said it had exposed shortcomings in the military's logistics, operations and command.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5282548.stm

he's either lying or saving his neck?

Hey what do you know? Hezbollah had failings in this war as well. Everyone failed in this war. Gee what does that sound like? Oh yea... A DRAW.

Of course Leb got hammered....in the mind of Hezz it was accpetable losses...the best they hoped for was a bloody nose for the IDF...instead they held the IDF...and succeeded in preventing the Isreali's in achieving thier target...the obliteration of Hezz...IDF lost.

And Hezbollah failed in their objective which was to destroy Israel and to gain the Shebaa farms. You really are one sided are you?

Ostensibly, the goal of Hez in this was the release of their prisoners held in Israeli prisons, and the Shebaa Farms area.

Not one prisoner released - in fact, more taken.
Not one centimeter of Shebaa Farms given to Hezbollah - still not part of Lebanon, by UN resolution.

Sounds like a stalemate to me, which is usually what you get after a ceasefire.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
You're somehow saying that Hezbollah attained its initial objectives?

They kidnapped Israeli soldiers and made demands... for the release of prisoners... which didn't happen.

They demanded Shebaa Farms... which they didn't get...

Really? You think they got any of that?

Hey what do you know? Hezbollah had failings in this war as well. Everyone failed in this war. Gee what does that sound like? Oh yea... A DRAW.

And Hezbollah failed in their objective which was to destroy Israel and to gain the Shebaa farms. You really are one sided are you?

Seems to me that the people on the ground disagree with your armchair based point of view.

One sided? No. Cynic? Yes. Realist? Yes.

What about you?

You're somehow saying that Hezbollah attained its initial objectives?

They kidnapped Israeli soldiers and made demands... for the release of prisoners... which didn't happen.

They demanded Shebaa Farms... which they didn't get...

Really? You think they got any of that?

You are really failing in disuading me from my original assestment that you are are a rather lame troll.

Seems to me that the people on the ground disagree with your armchair based point of view.

One sided? No. Cynic? Yes. Realist? Yes.

What about you?
And how does your armchair fit, chairborne?

And how does your armchair fit, chairborne?

Yawn.

Sorry did you say anything relevent?

No.

Troll.

Yawn.

Sorry did you say anything relevent?

No.

Troll.

Yes, I did say something relevant.

I said that Hezbollah had two initial objectives.

Obtain the release of their comrades in Israeli prisons by kidnapping two Israeli soldiers.

Obtain Shebaa Farms.

Neither of which was achieved.

So, you ignored me when I posted it.

And now you're saying I didn't say anything relevant, when I most certainly did.

Either you're being deliberately obsequious, or you're completely stupid.

Which one is it?

Yes, I did say something relevant.

I said that Hezbollah had two initial objectives.

Obtain the release of their comrades in Israeli prisons by kidnapping two Israeli soldiers.

Obtain Shebaa Farms.

Neither of which was achieved.

So, you ignored me when I posted it.

And now you're saying I didn't say anything relevant, when I most certainly did.

Either you're being deliberately obsequious, or you're completely stupid.

Which one is it?

Its like this son...

You have been trolling this thread from the start. In fact you started trolling this thread under a different moniker...from which point I pawned your sorry arse.

You have nothing.

You are a troll.

Its like this son...

You have been trolling this thread from the start. In fact you started trolling this thread under a different moniker...from which point I pawned your sorry arse.

You have nothing.

You are a troll.
It's like this, you have no argument to show that Hezbollah attained any of their initial objectives, and since you can't disprove my statement, your only option is to call me a troll.

Or, you can go back to saying I'm using "talking points"...

Neither works as a form of argument, so I've just pwned you completely.

It's like this, you have no argument to show that Hezbollah attained any of their initial objectives, and since you can't disprove my statement, your only option is to call me a troll.

Or, you can go back to saying I'm using "talking points"...

Neither works as a form of argument, so I've just pwned you completely.

Yawn....once more...nothing relevent...

Is it your intention to completely derail this thread?

Yawn....once more...nothing relevent...

Is it your intention to completely derail this thread?
How is Hezbollah not achieving its initial objectives not relevant?

Here's an idea.

If you think that Hezbollah not achieving its initial objectives is not relevant, go post a complaint in Moderation.

How is Hezbollah not achieving its initial objectives not relevant?

Here's an idea.

If you think that Hezbollah not achieving its initial objectives is not relevant, go post a complaint in Moderation.

More lame trollery considering your previous post boasting of your 'moderation forum victories'...

Don't you get it yet DK? You are a troll. You, by trolling in the guise of another poster, have forfeited any further discussion.

Anything you say is trollery.

If you don't like it...which you don't because otherwise you would not keep returning to this thread bleating sad attempts to get a reaction out of me.

You might have thought it was cute or funny to use a puppet moniker. Sorry son but I ain't laughing. And beleive me...I have sense of humour that eclipses anything your Soju soaked brain could ever think of.

You tried to pull a fast one and it failed.

Yes. You. Actually. Fail. As. A. Troll.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/vonbek/punchcoulter.gif

More lame trollery considering your previous post boasting of your 'moderation forum victories'...

Don't you get it yet DK? You are a troll. You, by trolling in the guise of another poster, have forfeited any further discussion.

Anything you say is trollery.

If you don't like it...which you don't because otherwise you would not keep returning to this thread bleating sad attempts to get a reaction out of me.

You might have thought it was cute or funny to use a puppet moniker. Sorry son but I ain't laughing. And beleive me...I have sense of humour that eclipses anything your Soju soaked brain could ever think of.

You tried to pull a fast one and it failed.

Yes. You. Actually. Fail. As. A. Troll.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/vonbek/punchcoulter.gif

Sorry, I've had three nations for quite some time, and with no intent to fool anyone.

The fact that you couldn't realize this, and were made a fool of as a result, is what's bothering you.

Sorry, I've had three nations for quite some time, and with no intent to fool anyone.

The fact that you couldn't realize this, and were made a fool of as a result, is what's bothering you.

Now you're just getting desperate.

Troll.

Goodnight.

Seems to me that the people on the ground disagree with your armchair based point of view.

One sided? yes. Cynic? Yes. Realist? no.

What about you?

I edited your post because you are one sided and not a realist.

As to me, I am a realist and I look at both sides of this issue. As I have been studying this issue since it started, neither side accomplished anything. No one got what they wanted. In other words, it was a pointless month of bombing one another and no winner. Reminds me of the War of 1812. No one won that war either.

If you are going to paint one side as a loser, you must point out why the otherside won. You have not done so. Some can claim that they still exist is a victory but look at what they have accepted. Seems to me their power as been weakened slightly. Israel is getting the UN on the border.

In reality both sides lost this campaign.

Rubiconic,

You really need to look at all the facts before deciding who actually won or not. In reality, neither side won this war.

In reality both sides lost this campaign.

Keep repeating yourself, and he'll call you a troll as well.

Rubiconic doesn't seem to be willing to debate - he just wants to say he's completely correct, and if you debate that, you're a troll.

Keep repeating yourself, and he'll call you a troll as well.

Rubiconic doesn't seem to be willing to debate - he just wants to say he's completely correct, and if you debate that, you're a troll.

Both sides of the spectrum are guilty of this. However, as a student of politics and history, I have no choice but to look at both sides and see what eachother accomplished.

The answer to that is nothing.

Both sides of the spectrum are guilty of this. However, as a student of politics and history, I have no choice but to look at both sides and see what eachother accomplished.

The answer to that is nothing.
I tried to point out that Hezbollah achieved none of its objectives (and the IDF didn't either), and all Rubiconic could do was call me a troll, and say I was "derailing the thread".

I tried to point out that Hezbollah achieved none of its objectives (and the IDF didn't either), and all Rubiconic could do was call me a troll, and say I was "derailing the thread".

I know. It is sad though to see a truth being spoken (and that is what it was) and then having it slammed because the thread starter did not like having to be told he was wrong.

I know. It is sad though to see a truth being spoken (and that is what it was) and then having it slammed because the thread starter did not like having to be told he was wrong.

Are you the other DK puppet?

Anyway I think it is quite obvious that you do not understand the kind of war Hezz are fighting.

For every bridge, power plant, apartment block that the IDF destroyes it creates more support for Hizz and their friends. Hell even Amal and other groups co-ordinated their attacks with Hizz.

Still carry on watching Fox news for your basis of 'watching this war since it started'.

2 questions for you....

What was Hezzies objective/s and were they successfull achieved?

What was the IDF's objective/s and were they successfull achieved?

2 questions for you....

What was Hezzies objective/s and were they successfull achieved?

What was the IDF's objective/s and were they successfull achieved?

Short term objectives or long term objectives?

Short term objectives or long term objectives?

Indulge me:)

The immediate objectives of both groups with regards to the invasion of Lebenon and longterm pre-ceasefire and post-ceasefire...

Short-term, it's a tie...Hezzies didn't get what they wanted (their prisoners, a full Israeli invasion), and neither did the Israeli's (full destruction/disarmament of Hezbollah).

Long-term...it's a Hezbollah victory, since they are still around...and the Israeli campaign gives them propaganda for recruiting for the next ten years or so.

Short-term, it's a tie...Hezzies didn't get what they wanted (their prisoners, a full Israeli invasion), and neither did the Israeli's (full destruction/disarmament of Hezbollah).

Long-term...it's a Hezbollah victory, since they are still around...and the Israeli campaign gives them propaganda for recruiting for the next ten years or so.

Given that Hiz prepared the ground quite effectively for the Isreali's I'd say that they got exactly what they wanted...provoking the Isreali's to invade..With a new PM (Olmert) and a 'Bomber' Harris in Dan Halutz the time could not have been better...

All this stuff about the Farms and prisoner exchanges...all nice to haves...secondary objectives...the main objective was to provoke the Isreali's into entering Lebenon and to use the new tactics...and they succeeded beyond Hizz's wildest dreams...

Otherwise I think you are right. The next 6 months or so will be rather ineresting for the IDF....afterall they need to recoupe their lost reputation.

But the really scary thing is that Hizz and other militias are fighting together and are organised.

I edited your post because you are one sided and not a realist.

As to me, I am a realist and I look at both sides of this issue. As I have been studying this issue since it started, neither side accomplished anything. No one got what they wanted. In other words, it was a pointless month of bombing one another and no winner. Reminds me of the War of 1812. No one won that war either.

If you are going to paint one side as a loser, you must point out why the otherside won. You have not done so. Some can claim that they still exist is a victory but look at what they have accepted. Seems to me their power as been weakened slightly. Israel is getting the UN on the border.

In reality both sides lost this campaign.
I partly agree; both sides lost...

Still, some argue that a guerilla movement does not need to win to be successful it should merely not lose...

While Hizbu-llah assumably took some heavy blows and was weakened considerably, it weathered the storm. Moreover, its militant wing has gained renewed legitimacy. Legitimacy, it was gradually losing since the withdrawal of Israel and the death of Prime Minister Hariri...

The destruction of Lebanon will allow Hizbu-llah to replace its fallen fighters with new recruits. The part of young men that do not feel they have prospects of a better future and see Israel as the biggest threat to their security.

A guerilla movement can only be defeated if no longer has popular support. Israel ensured popular support for Hizbu-llah for years to come, while Hizbu-llah has shown it can resist Israel without being destroyed.

Both sides lost, especially Israel and Lebanon, but this outcome will serve Hizbu-llah in the long run.

Are you the other DK puppet?

Your ignorance of who is and isn't a puppet is really amazing.

I have two other accounts. Sedation Ministry and Insane Leftists.

Once again, if you're in doubt, ask the Moderators. They know.

Your ignorance of who is and isn't a puppet is really amazing.

I have two other accounts. Sedation Ministry and Insane Leftists.

Once again, if you're in doubt, ask the Moderators. They know.

:rolleyes:

Are you the other DK puppet?

No he's not.

I am though.

And quite rightly....a very interesting and well written article regarding the trashing of the IDF.

FRESNO, CA (August 19, 2006) - It's not easy being right all the time. Way back on July 23, when all the suckers in the Mainstream Media were passing on the bullshit about Israel expelling Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon, I said Hezbollah was going to win every round of the fight. I took a lot of heat for that, but now, when you look through the smoking ruins of Northern Israel and Southern Lebanon, you see two things: the yellow Hezzie flag flying high, and the fat face of your favorite War Nerd sticking his tongue out at all the better-paid pundits who got it wrong as usual.

http://www.exile.ru/2006-August-11/gophers_by_tko.html
Interesting links at the bottom there. Is the NBP some kind of neo-soviet/neo-nazi party?

Ostensibly, the goal of Hez in this was the release of their prisoners held in Israeli prisons, and the Shebaa Farms area.
Ostensibly...you of course believe that these were the true aims, you have no suspicions whatsoever that this was for instance (as one example) an incident orchastrated by third parties with Hezbollah simply acting as agents because it suited them to do so and because the third party paid for all their hardware?

So, as far as you are concerned President Bush is an idiot for thinking that there was more to this than an honest attempt on Hezbollah's part to achieve the release of prisoners and the possession of Shebaa Farms and Bush and co are simply being histerical 'out-there' flakey conspiracy theorists with all their 'Iran this' and 'Syria that' nonsense?:confused:

D.K.! I never knew you felt that way....;)

I tried to point out that Hezbollah achieved none of its objectives (and the IDF didn't either), and all Rubiconic could do was call me a troll, and say I was "derailing the thread".
You really don't understand this whole asymmetric warfare concept. Not only does Hizbollah not need to meet its 'objectives' to be successful, but the moment it actually does meet them then it will have lost everything.

Supposing tomorrow HIzbollah did do everything it set out to do, reclaim the farms and wipe Israel off the map, then what has it gained? It's lost all the funding from Iran and Syria, who won't pay them to fight if there's noone left to fight. The Lebanese will probably be initially thankful, but they'll quickly get fed up of a terrorist organisation without any Israel to rail against. So bang goes the support, the recruits and the status of being the ones taking the fight to Israel.

Instead, HIzbollah have kept all that, their funding from Iran is secure, the Shiites think they're God's gifts as well as confirming that Israel are the bunch of bastards they thought they were. THat's all that matters to an organisation like Hizbollah.

You really don't understand this whole asymmetric warfare concept. Not only does Hizbollah not need to meet its 'objectives' to be successful, but the moment it actually does meet them then it will have lost everything.

Supposing tomorrow HIzbollah did do everything it set out to do, reclaim the farms and wipe Israel off the map, then what has it gained? It's lost all the funding from Iran and Syria, who won't pay them to fight if there's noone left to fight. The Lebanese will probably be initially thankful, but they'll quickly get fed up of a terrorist organisation without any Israel to rail against. So bang goes the support, the recruits and the status of being the ones taking the fight to Israel.

Instead, HIzbollah have kept all that, their funding from Iran is secure, the Shiites think they're God's gifts as well as confirming that Israel are the bunch of bastards they thought they were. THat's all that matters to an organisation like Hizbollah.

Right, survival comes first to any organisation. Organisations can evolve though; take NATO for example..

I tried to point out that Hezbollah achieved none of its objectives (and the IDF didn't either), and all Rubiconic could do was call me a troll, and say I was "derailing the thread".

Oh, I believe Hezbollah achieved more than enough. This could be compared to the Tet Offensive of 1968, albeit with fewer casualties. Although a military victory for the joint US-SV forces, it was in fact a massive propaganda victory for the NVA/Vietcong due to the US media inferring that the offensive had caused the US/SV forces to retreat and takes thousands of casualties without apparent results.

Although not a perfect analogy, the point is still the same; Hezbollah may not have gained their immediate objectives, but perhaps they never meant to. With the press coverage (Such as that covered by your puppet in another thread), Hezbollah has gained a propaganda victory, and the IDF have lost - they have not destroyed Hezbollah, and have likely only increased support for it.

Interesting links at the bottom there. Is the NBP some kind of neo-soviet/neo-nazi party?

very much anti nazi

http://eng.nbp-info.ru/cat1/index4.html

very much anti nazi

http://eng.nbp-info.ru/cat1/index4.htmlThe goal of uniting all of Europe and Russia under a Russian Empire does seem rather ultranationalistic and a bit to close to Nazi for my taste...

The goal of uniting all of Europe and Russia under a Russian Empire does seem rather ultranationalistic and a bit to close to Nazi for my taste...

Wish I could discuss this but my knowledge is pretty limited when it comes to bizzarro Russian political parties....but I don't think they are Nazi's...seems to me that they are following the path that Lenin wanted....world worker revolution etc...

But this is not really relevent is it?

Edit - Not a sarcastic question btw...just a normal run of the mill everyday ordinary question :)

I think Iran won . Israel and hezbollah both lost at the very best fought to a standstill , and the IDF did not fight very smart , in fact they seemed unsure of exactly what they wanted to accomplish and fought a very haphazard campaign . very un israeli like .
If anything they learned what they can expect in the next round . and they also went out and bought two ballistic missile subs to play with Iran ..nuke capable ..so that even if israel is destroyed..they get the last" laugh" unless of course they just take the first strike option themselves..since we see how well " diplomacy " has worked for them .

I think Iran won . Israel and hezbollah both lost at the very best fought to a standstill , and the IDF did not fight very smart , in fact they seemed unsure of exactly what they wanted to accomplish and fought a very haphazard campaign . very un israeli like .
If anything they learned what they can expect in the next round . and they also went out and bought two ballistic missile subs to play with Iran ..nuke capable ..so that even if israel is destroyed..they get the last" laugh" unless of course they just take the first strike option themselves..since we see how well " diplomacy " has worked for them .

Not sure I agree with everything else but I think you might have point regarding Iran....

Afterall it is in Irans interest to keep Isreal...well....'unstable' I suppose.

Funny (in a sad way) is that the heads of Mossad and Shin Bet used to meet with Savak's boss man on a regular basis back in the day...

Interesting links at the bottom there. Is the NBP some kind of neo-soviet/neo-nazi party?

Not so much neo-Nazi, as hyper-nationalist. They're generally anti-Nazi Germany, even if they hold similar ideals.

National Bolshevism is a political movement that claims to combine elements of nationalism (historically thought of on the extreme 'Right') and Bolshevism (historically thought of on the extreme 'Left') [1]. The ideology claims a direct link to Hegel, whom it presents as the father of idealism. In addition, it is fiercely anti-American ("against Wall Street") in tone and against the Weimar Republic and the Treaty of Versailles. It is also highly traditionalist in the mould of Julius Evola. Economically the National Bolsheviks seek to marry the New Economic Policy of Vladimir Lenin to the Corporatism of Benito Mussolini. This marriage of fascist mixed economy with the "soft" market economy portions of Lenin's theory have caused many communists to reject it as a fascist ideology. Influenced heavily by the idea of geopolitics, current Russian National Bolshevism movements seek a merger between Russia and the rest of Europe in a union, to be known as Eurasia. (In fiction, an apparently successful National Bolshevist movement is featured in George Orwell's 1984 as, ironically, "Eurasia", one of the two rivals of Oceania.)

Ok...

It seems to me that the Isreali's who served are saying that it was a debacle...

http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/special-reports-storypage.jsp?id=3090

And there's trouble at home for Israel's leaders - hundreds of reservists returning from the frontlines furious over the handling of the war have staged angry protests - calling on the Prime Minister to resign.

The discontent isn't confined to the rank and file.

In an exclusive interview with Channel 4 News - a senior tank commander says at the height of the offensive he disobeyed orders - refusing to send his men into high-risk battle because they just weren't ready.

Now I'm sorry but if anyone tried this in the IDF even 5 years ago would have been handed their arse on a platter.

Here's the thing I don't get. While at the highest level, the prime minister is responsible for the overall direction of the armed forces, why aren't the troops calling for the heads of their various generals as well? It's more than likely that the majority of the decisions given to the army was by its generals.

An order to go to a specific battle while unprepared? That's likely to have been given by a general or whatever commander they had.

Not saying Olmert isn't responsible, but I detect the use of scapegoating here to avoid some of the blame.

Oh, I believe Hezbollah achieved more than enough. This could be compared to the Tet Offensive of 1968, albeit with fewer casualties. Although a military victory for the joint US-SV forces, it was in fact a massive propaganda victory for the NVA/Vietcong due to the US media inferring that the offensive had caused the US/SV forces to retreat and takes thousands of casualties without apparent results.

Although not a perfect analogy, the point is still the same; Hezbollah may not have gained their immediate objectives, but perhaps they never meant to. With the press coverage (Such as that covered by your puppet in another thread), Hezbollah has gained a propaganda victory, and the IDF have lost - they have not destroyed Hezbollah, and have likely only increased support for it.

I believe that was an unanticipated effect.

Here's the thing I don't get. While at the highest level, the prime minister is responsible for the overall direction of the armed forces, why aren't the troops calling for the heads of their various generals as well? It's more than likely that the majority of the decisions given to the army was by its generals.

An order to go to a specific battle while unprepared? That's likely to have been given by a general or whatever commander they had.

Not saying Olmert isn't responsible, but I detect the use of scapegoating here to avoid some of the blame.

Good question...as far as I can tell/say is that its a combo of politics and skin saving....

Its not that the IDF were unprepared...they were prepared...but for the wrong kind of war...this was a political war...Olmert made the ultimate decision to go for it...and now needs to deal with the consequences...

And in the meantime today some 30,000 children have died around the globe through preventable situations (disease, malnutrition, war, starvation)

Here's the thing I don't get. While at the highest level, the prime minister is responsible for the overall direction of the armed forces, why aren't the troops calling for the heads of their various generals as well? It's more than likely that the majority of the decisions given to the army was by its generals.

An order to go to a specific battle while unprepared? That's likely to have been given by a general or whatever commander they had.

Not saying Olmert isn't responsible, but I detect the use of scapegoating here to avoid some of the blame.

There is some truth in what you are saying.