NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey all of you US Christians out there, what do you think of federally funded affirmative action for religious people in general and Christians in particular. I find it rather unfair.

As we all know Bush's faith based initiatives pay government funds out to religious organizations that provide crap like drug treatment and birth control counselling and stuff. Most of the cash goes to Christian organizations. In fact, the vast bulk of that cash goes to Christians with a tiny sprinkling to Jews, Muslims and one Buddhist institution in California. In order to preserve freedom of religion those organizations are allowed to make decisions about who to hire and fire based on religion. Doesn't this boil down to an affirmative action "make-work" program for Christians? What about those who are atheist, agnostic, or not part of a religion that gets funds?

Hey all of you US Christians out there, what do you think of federally funded affirmative action for religious people in general and Christians in particular. I find it rather unfair.

As we all know Bush's faith based initiatives pay government funds out to religious organizations that provide crap like drug treatment and birth control counselling and stuff. Most of the cash goes to Christian organizations. In fact, the vast bulk of that cash goes to Christians with a tiny sprinkling to Jews, Muslims and one Buddhist institution in California. In order to preserve freedom of religion those organizations are allowed to make decisions about who to hire and fire based on religion. Doesn't this boil down to an affirmative action "make-work" program for Christians? What about those who are atheist, agnostic, or not part of a religion that gets funds?
Interesting. I would also like to hear what US Christians think about this.

What if the situation were reversed, and federal money was being given to groups which were allowed to refuse to hire Christians? What if the federal government were funding organizations that refuse to hire anybody who believes in God? Hell, what if the government were funding organizations which are free to refuse to hire Republicans? Or non-heterosexuals?

The way I see it you have 2 seperate issues here.

1 should the governement give money to faith based organizations?

2 should organizations that recieve money from the government have to follow anti-discrimintation laws?

the answers imo, are no and yes.

my answer to question 1 should solve your whole problem though. ;)

The way I see it you have 2 seperate issues here.

1 should the governement give money to faith based organizations?

2 should organizations that recieve money from the government have to follow anti-discrimintation laws?

the answers imo, are no and yes.

my answer to question 1 should solve your whole problem though. ;)
I agree with you. I just wonder if we'll get a range of differing opinions and how those in favor of the program will defend their position.

Let me state first that any organization that help the poor, needy and the orphans are to be congratulated and helped in their goal if possible.

Let me state secondly that I never had a problem with affirmative actions as I see it as a way to help those who need it most. (In that case, ironically, it would seem that would be the christians)

So I should be all for it, no? Wrong. I don't like the faith based initiatives for the reasons enumerated by other posters and I see them as a way to endorse christianity by the government with is against the constitution.

But, since I'm not a US citizen, feel free to ignore my views.

I don't think just because the government gives you money, that they should get to tell you what to do with it. I don't think by you applying for and receiving a grant that the government is condoning what you are doing. I think that is a bunch of legalistic liberal crap that lets the left control where the money is going. You fill out an application, the government makes sure you spend the money on what they provide it for and that should be the end of the relationship. I would think liberals would be completely opposed to this Big Brother crap.

Good question, though.

I don't think just because the government gives you money, that they should get to tell you what to do with it. I don't think by you applying for and receiving a grant that the government is condoning what you are doing. I think that is a bunch of legalistic liberal crap that lets the left control where the money is going. You fill out an application, the government makes sure you spend the money on what they provide it for and that should be the end of the relationship. I would think liberals would be completely opposed to this Big Brother crap.

Good question, though.
If you have government money you should probably folloiw their rules, it's not like taking out a loan from the bank, it implies government endorsement.

Let's say you wanted to work at the local city office, and they didn't hire you because you "looked Christian" would you be upset? probably. would you have a case for discrimination? yes.

Now you go apply next door at the federally funded charity, you also don't get hired because you "look Christian", now, do you have a case? no.

So, what's the difference? the correct answer is the "liberals haven't gotten to the charities and ruined them yet" right?

I don't think just because the government gives you money, that they should get to tell you what to do with it. I don't think by you applying for and receiving a grant that the government is condoning what you are doing. I think that is a bunch of legalistic liberal crap that lets the left control where the money is going. You fill out an application, the government makes sure you spend the money on what they provide it for and that should be the end of the relationship. I would think liberals would be completely opposed to this Big Brother crap.

Good question, though.
If the government is giving you money why shouldn't they get to tell you what to do with it? The precedent is already set. Federal highway funds are given to states on certain conditions. They must have a legal alcohol limit of .08% or less, and the funds are to be used to repair, build and maintain the highways.

Of course the government is condoning what you are doing by giving you a grant. The government taxes things they don't want you to do, like smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol, and funds things that they do want you to do through grants and loans like those available to university students.

The left isn't the one controling where the money is going. The Republicans in congress and the Republican president have been controlling where the money is going. They've been using it to fund religious institutions. I guess it's ok for them to controll where the money goes. It's only when the left gets involved that we have a problem.

Actually the Bush administration has been very lax in checking on what you use the money for. For example, you don't even need to hire people who have any training. You can put your buddies on the payroll of a church sponsored drug treatment center and it's ok by Bush. Your program could consist of just telling people "get to know Jesus and your addictions will dissappear" and it's ok with Bush.

We are opposed to everyone's money being spent on ineffective programs that benefit only a select few.

I don't think just because the government gives you money, that they should get to tell you what to do with it.

Why not? You're not entitled to anybody else's money, so why shouldn't they feel free to refuse to give you money unless you meet certain conditions? Why shouldn't the government be allowed to withhold funding from organizations which discriminate?


I don't think by you applying for and receiving a grant that the government is condoning what you are doing. I think that is a bunch of legalistic liberal crap that lets the left control where the money is going. You fill out an application, the government makes sure you spend the money on what they provide it for and that should be the end of the relationship. I would think liberals would be completely opposed to this Big Brother crap.

I think actual liberals (as well as classic conservatives) would oppose a system in which the government is obligated to give money to whoever asks for it, to be used however they want. I think most sane people think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to NOT fund every random yahoo who sticks his hand out.

You seem to not understand how a grant works. If I get an NIH grant (which I hopefully will be doing soon!), I am not getting a pile of money to do whatever I want. I am getting funding to be used for a very specific set of purposes. If they find out that I am using the money in a way they did not approve, they withdraw the grant. Even if I'm using the money in a way they approved, if they aren't satisfied with my work they can refuse to renew the grant.

That's how grants work. Grants are not presents. You don't just get free money from the government; it comes with requirements, responsibilities, and restrictions.

If an organization doesn't want to meet the government's terms, they're free to not take the government's money. Nobody's forcing them to do so.

BUMP!

Personally, I'm against any sort of Affirmative Action whatsoever based on any criterion, whether it be race, sex, and yes religion. It shows discrimination and favoritism, which was unconstitutional last time I checked.

I think it is important to differentiate between "faith-based initiatives" that are actually seeking to proselytize and those who are simply interested in charitable activities because of their religion.

If a church group wants to start a drug rehab program or a soup kitchen or a halfway house or whatever, and they are doing so because of their religion, but are not using that opportunity to try and convert all the people they help, I see no problem with them receiving government funds that are set aside to help charities. In order to receive such funds, however, they should have to follow government regulation on hiring practices, etc. In other words, as far as I am concerned, the minute you agree to receive public funds, the idea that you can selectively hire (or take in those in need) based on religion gets thrown out the window. If you want to discriminate, you do it with private funds.

However, if a large part of the charity work is proselytizing - if they are actively trying to convert or asking those they help to go to church services, I don't think government funds should even be an option. There is absolutely no reason that government funds should go to purely religious causes, and conversion of non-believers can't be seen as anything else.

Personally, I'm against any sort of Affirmative Action whatsoever based on any criterion, whether it be race, sex, and yes religion. It shows discrimination and favoritism, which was unconstitutional last time I checked.

It isn't necessarily based in any such thing. Many forms of affirmative action are meant to encourage traditionally disadvantaged groups, without ever showing any discrimination or favortism.

For instance, members of SWE (Society of Women Engineers) at my undergrad university would go and tutor at nearby after school programs or go to schools and set up science demonstrations. No children were discriminated against or favored in these programs. However, many of those who went were women. More than one person was of a minority ethnicity. The idea was that minorities and young girls who might otherwise be discouraged from entering science and math careers would see those of us who were successful and know that this was an area they could succeed in - that being a minority or a girl wasn't going to stop them.

Hey all of you US Christians out there, what do you think of federally funded affirmative action for religious people in general and Christians in particular. I find it rather unfair.

As we all know Bush's faith based initiatives pay government funds out to religious organizations that provide crap like drug treatment and birth control counselling and stuff. Most of the cash goes to Christian organizations. In fact, the vast bulk of that cash goes to Christians with a tiny sprinkling to Jews, Muslims and one Buddhist institution in California. In order to preserve freedom of religion those organizations are allowed to make decisions about who to hire and fire based on religion. Doesn't this boil down to an affirmative action "make-work" program for Christians? What about those who are atheist, agnostic, or not part of a religion that gets funds?

SOL my friend.

Geez. I am so tired. Everytime I turn around its "OM (non-existent) G Why do the Christians get treated better than the atheists?" or "OMG why does everybody hate Christianity?" Yeesh. Reminds of when my sister and I used to argue over who had more mac and cheese. Then we discovered that you can actually make two boxes, and there was almost too much. Oh, lovely days of innocence and bliss...

SOL my friend.

Geez. I am so tired. Everytime I turn around its "OM (non-existent) G Why do the Christians get treated better than the atheists?" or "OMG why does everybody hate Christianity?" Yeesh. Reminds of when my sister and I used to argue over who had more mac and cheese. Then we discovered that you can actually make two boxes, and there was almost too much. Oh, lovely days of innocence and bliss...
Yeah, and if government raised taxes and funded secular social programs we would have two boxes of Mac and Cheese. Unfortunately government slashes taxes, slashes funds to government run (religiously neutral) social programs and funds religious ones that are under no obligation to hire trained people, show results, or be fair in their hiring practices.

Now eat your mac and cheese before it gets cold.

Hey all of you US Christians out there, what do you think of federally funded affirmative action for religious people in general and Christians in particular. I find it rather unfair.

As we all know Bush's faith based initiatives pay government funds out to religious organizations that provide crap like drug treatment and birth control counselling and stuff. Most of the cash goes to Christian organizations. In fact, the vast bulk of that cash goes to Christians with a tiny sprinkling to Jews, Muslims and one Buddhist institution in California. In order to preserve freedom of religion those organizations are allowed to make decisions about who to hire and fire based on religion. Doesn't this boil down to an affirmative action "make-work" program for Christians? What about those who are atheist, agnostic, or not part of a religion that gets funds?

I think it's a clear violation of the seperation of church and state. I mean, these are GOVERNMENT funds.