NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, I just wanna say this isn't an attack on muslims. I have a genuine query. I believe that, in general, muslims would not murder people.

BUT the koran (quran / qur'an / qoran) -the book that muslims follow- categorically, undeniably, absolutely, unambiguously states that any muslim who converts to another religion MUST be murdered.

I've just been reading a website which talks about a religion which the website basically claims is actually inherently evil (not its followers, just the religion), as the religion claims to be serving God but is actually against God, and lists several reasons and bits of evidence. The religion that the website claims fits the bill is roman catholicism... BUT could islam actually fit the bill?

I think either roman catholicism or islam could fit the bill, but ESPECIALLY islam as it calls for people to be murdered just for converting from islam to another religion.

So I have two questions:

1. Is islam the only religion that calls for people to be murdered if they escape islam

and

2. Could islam fit the bill as described on the website - in other words, the marks (hypothetical or otherwise) of the 'beast' that the website refers to, could they be easily applied to islam?

The website is http://www.worldslastchance.com/

I am not trying to attack islam. I do not believe that modern-day islam is an evil religion (though I do believe there may have been mistranslations, incorrectly written passages -due to forgetting exact words of God-, and misinterpretations that suggest otherwise) and I believe that muslims in general are peaceful people, but taht doesn't change the fact that the koran insists on murder (with absolutely no ambiguitiy) for anyone who stops being muslim. I simply have a genuine query that is in no way designed to attack islam, but still needs to be answered even if it looks like I'm attacking islam.

The catholic church burned/hung/tortured a lot of Jews, Christians, catholics, muslims, buddhists, etc back in the dark ages for converting/not converting...

*Ahem* And a one and a two...

The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (oy oy gevalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

(With apologies to Mel)
Actually a number of religions have a convert or die (or convert and die, depending on your point of view). The on again off again war between Shinto and Buddhist in Japan springs to mind.

I have a more important question. Does it matter if you aren't crazy?

First off, I just wanna say this isn't an attack on muslims.of course not :D

The catholic church burned/hung/tortured a lot of Jews, Christians, catholics, muslims, buddhists, etc back in the dark ages for converting/not converting...
I think Multiland is making a distinction between what a religion advocates and what it's followers actually do. While the Christian Bible advocates tolerance of other people's beliefs, Christians in history rarely followed it's teachings. Muslims on the other hand were for a long time relatively tolerant of Jews, even though the Koran strongly encourages that all non-believers be killed.

ok I think he means modern times.

I don't hate muslims but...
There are 5 major religions in the world. Christianity Hinduism, Buhdism, the Muslims, and the Jews. There is only one religion fight the other four, and that is Islam. Yes they are Jihading (or at least they were a year ago) against Buhdists in Thialand.

First off, I just wanna say this isn't an attack on muslims. I have a genuine query. I believe that, in general, muslims would not murder people.

BUT the koran (quran / qur'an / qoran) -the book that muslims follow- categorically, undeniably, absolutely, unambiguously states that any muslim who converts to another religion MUST be murdered.

I've just been reading a website which talks about a religion which the website basically claims is actually inherently evil (not its followers, just the religion), as the religion claims to be serving God but is actually against God, and lists several reasons and bits of evidence. The religion that the website claims fits the bill is roman catholicism... BUT could islam actually fit the bill?

I think either roman catholicism or islam could fit the bill, but ESPECIALLY islam as it calls for people to be murdered just for converting from islam to another religion.

So I have two questions:

1. Is islam the only religion that calls for people to be murdered if they escape islam

and

2. Could islam fit the bill as described on the website - in other words, the marks (hypothetical or otherwise) of the 'beast' that the website refers to, could they be easily applied to islam?

The website is http://www.worldslastchance.com/

I am not trying to attack islam. I do not believe that modern-day islam is an evil religion (though I do believe there may have been mistranslations, incorrectly written passages -due to forgetting exact words of God-, and misinterpretations that suggest otherwise) and I believe that muslims in general are peaceful people, but taht doesn't change the fact that the koran insists on murder (with absolutely no ambiguitiy) for anyone who stops being muslim. I simply have a genuine query that is in no way designed to attack islam, but still needs to be answered even if it looks like I'm attacking islam.
I think it's just because they never had something like the enlightenment.

ok I think he means modern times.
Modern times means.... what now? Last 50 years or so? 20th and 21st century?

I think it's just because they never had something like the enlightenment.

They sort of had an enlightenment, back in the 800's-
1000's or so, but since that period the interpretations of the Quran have become much more conservative and literal.

They sort of had an enlightenment, back in the 800's-
1000's or so, but since that period the interpretations of the Quran have become much more conservative and literal.
OK. There enlightenment wore off.

OK. There enlightenment wore off.

it's what happens when you let fundies talk too much and get hold of actual power (after letting the mongols invade...)

In the OT the Hebrews killed people who DID convert.

The poor guys agreed to have their winger snipped, then the Hebrews attacked them the next day and killed them all.

First off, I just wanna say this isn't an attack on muslims. I have a genuine query. I believe that, in general, muslims would not murder people.

BUT the koran (quran / qur'an / qoran) -the book that muslims follow- categorically, undeniably, absolutely, unambiguously states that any muslim who converts to another religion MUST be murdered.

I've just been reading a website which talks about a religion which the website basically claims is actually inherently evil (not its followers, just the religion), as the religion claims to be serving God but is actually against God, and lists several reasons and bits of evidence. The religion that the website claims fits the bill is roman catholicism... BUT could islam actually fit the bill?

I think either roman catholicism or islam could fit the bill, but ESPECIALLY islam as it calls for people to be murdered just for converting from islam to another religion.

So I have two questions:

1. Is islam the only religion that calls for people to be murdered if they escape islam

and

2. Could islam fit the bill as described on the website - in other words, the marks (hypothetical or otherwise) of the 'beast' that the website refers to, could they be easily applied to islam?

The website is http://www.worldslastchance.com/

I am not trying to attack islam. I do not believe that modern-day islam is an evil religion (though I do believe there may have been mistranslations, incorrectly written passages -due to forgetting exact words of God-, and misinterpretations that suggest otherwise) and I believe that muslims in general are peaceful people, but taht doesn't change the fact that the koran insists on murder (with absolutely no ambiguitiy) for anyone who stops being muslim. I simply have a genuine query that is in no way designed to attack islam, but still needs to be answered even if it looks like I'm attacking islam.

Do you have verses of the Qur'an to support this? I still haven't found them in my version. And even still if you look at the context of such verses(if they are indeed there), im sure you'll find out that he more than likely was referring to those that converted to a pagan/polytheistic religion, as opposed to another monotheistic one. Mohammed spoke harshly against polytheism, so that in itself wouldn't suprise me.

Do you have verses of the Qur'an to support this? I still haven't found them in my version. And even still if you look at the context of such verses(if they are indeed there), im sure you'll find out that he more than likely was referring to those that converted to a pagan/polytheistic religion, as opposed to another monotheistic one. Mohammed spoke harshly against polytheism, so that in itself wouldn't suprise me.

Good point. The Quran actually has passages that show support for the monotheist traditions against the polytheist; like here

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/030.qmt.html#030.002

where it says that the Byzantines will be victorious against the Persians and celebrates this future occurance. Mohammed was a lot more about breaking the old idols and driving out the polytheist religions that were present in Arabia. It doesn't quite answer the OP's question, but it's something to consider.

While the Christian Bible advocates tolerance of other people's beliefs, Christians in history rarely followed it's teachings.

Please provide me with evidence of this. Lst few times I read the Bible I found orders to slaughter people of different religions all through the old testament. Johns new testament gospel is not really Jew friendly. And I did not see the word "tolerance" anywhere.

Please provide me with evidence of this. Lst few times I read the Bible I found orders to slaughter people of different religions all through the old testament. Johns new testament gospel is not really Jew friendly. And I did not see the word "tolerance" anywhere.


Im sure he is referring to the NT, opposed to the killings in the early OT. and why isn't john's gospel jew friendly? Wasn't he a jew? wasn't jesus a jew? Weren't all the disciples Jews? And all of the early christians too? weren't they jewish? Yeah, i think so. Now, if you think that because John says things like the jews yelled and hollered for jesus to be murdered, it is anti jewish, then you are slightly off. I think it would be telling a historical account of the life and deaht of Christ. After all it is written that "I would go into my people, but they would reject me"(paraphrased)

First off, I just wanna say this isn't an attack on muslims. I have a genuine query. I believe that, in general, muslims would not murder people.

BUT the koran (quran / qur'an / qoran) -the book that muslims follow- categorically, undeniably, absolutely, unambiguously states that any muslim who converts to another religion MUST be murdered.

I've just been reading a website which talks about a religion which the website basically claims is actually inherently evil (not its followers, just the religion), as the religion claims to be serving God but is actually against God, and lists several reasons and bits of evidence. The religion that the website claims fits the bill is roman catholicism... BUT could islam actually fit the bill?

I think either roman catholicism or islam could fit the bill, but ESPECIALLY islam as it calls for people to be murdered just for converting from islam to another religion.

So I have two questions:

1. Is islam the only religion that calls for people to be murdered if they escape islam

and

2. Could islam fit the bill as described on the website - in other words, the marks (hypothetical or otherwise) of the 'beast' that the website refers to, could they be easily applied to islam?

The website is http://www.worldslastchance.com/

I am not trying to attack islam. I do not believe that modern-day islam is an evil religion (though I do believe there may have been mistranslations, incorrectly written passages -due to forgetting exact words of God-, and misinterpretations that suggest otherwise) and I believe that muslims in general are peaceful people, but taht doesn't change the fact that the koran insists on murder (with absolutely no ambiguitiy) for anyone who stops being muslim. I simply have a genuine query that is in no way designed to attack islam, but still needs to be answered even if it looks like I'm attacking islam.

Is it still done anywhere today?

ok I think he means modern times.

I don't hate muslims but...
There are 5 major religions in the world. Christianity Hinduism, Buhdism, the Muslims, and the Jews. There is only one religion fight the other four, and that is Islam. Yes they are Jihading (or at least they were a year ago) against Buhdists in Thialand.

The struggle of the Muslims in Thailand is not against Budists, they form a minority and an impoverised backwards region that is ignored by the thailand government, therefore they struggle for independence...

Most violence that is thought to be religious is actially political violence...
See nothern Ireland for example, some would say Protestant versus Catholic, but it is Actually natives vs English

Hindus did attack mosques in India for example
Jews have also made attacks on Muslims...
Christians do not come to mind but I bet these can be found...

The catholic church burned/hung/tortured a lot of Jews, Christians, catholics, muslims, buddhists, etc back in the dark ages for converting/not converting...
I thnik every religion has done it, but the OP asked, does every religion command death for apostasy in their holy books?

Then there is the Qur'an...

Which is the litteral word of God...
I do not think the Qur'an mentions the killing of those fallen from their faith

The Hadith and sunna, and consequently the Shari'a do mention these things, however, we must see this in the context of the Military struggle of early Islam. Desertion in a war, more specifically a struggle for survival was punishable by death in many societies...

Most pious Muslims do not act upon this, naturally, for they a happy to let God judge over unbelievers... Islam does not currently face destruction by Military means ;)

The Qur'an says people should be persuaded to become Muslim, not forced. More generally it condemns violence. Those practicing it should never be called fundamentalists, as they act contrary to the spirit of Islam.

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or your daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend tries to secretly seduce you, saying 'Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you and your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God... "(Deuteronomy 13:7-11)

Accompanied by this assurance that this is God's will: "Whatever I am commanding youu, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away." (Deuteronomy 13:1)

These are Christian verses, and they are pretty clear to me...

And here we go from the Koran:

"They desire that ye should be infedels as they are infedels, and that ye should be alike. Take therefore none of them as friends, till they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and slay them wherever ye find them; but take none of them as friends or helpers..."

From Sura 4:90

The Qur'an says people should be persuaded to become Muslim, not forced. More generally it condemns violence. Those practicing it should never be called fundamentalists, as they act contrary to the spirit of Islam.
It seems the more "fundamentalist" cewrtain believers style themselves, the less they live up to the spirit of the faith. Happens in Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and others too.

Christian and Jewish holy books do support the death of apostates, but I can't think, off the top of my head, of any denomination that actually does this any more - it's been reinterpreted by more modern believers.

The Koran itself doesn't support the killing of apostates (though works _derived_ from it do), but some Islamic denominations do and have done for some time - it's been reinterpreted by more modern believers.

That's about the shape of it, isn't it?

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/698d27d4-ec5d-429d-9ded-286e8d29d6eb.html

Do you have verses of the Qur'an to support this? I still haven't found them in my version. And even still if you look at the context of such verses(if they are indeed there), im sure you'll find out that he more than likely was referring to those that converted to a pagan/polytheistic religion, as opposed to another monotheistic one. Mohammed spoke harshly against polytheism, so that in itself wouldn't suprise me.

There is no moral distinction between Islam murdering Christians and murdering Pagans, both are free human beings with freedom of conscious and advocating their murder is barbaric, end of story.

Of course, most Muslims today do not actively go out and murder people, but from listening to Muslims you can interpret that they would not shed any tears for the deaths of Pagans.

There is no moral distinction between Islam murdering Christians and murdering Pagans, both are free human beings with freedom of conscious and advocating their murder is barbaric, end of story.

Of course, most Muslims today do not actively go out and murder people, but from listening to Muslims you can interpret that they would not shed any tears for the deaths of Pagans.
Muslims did not go out and murder pagans and polytheists, nor did they in the early years of Islam.... they did want them to convert to Islam, for if they did not they would have no part in the afterlife

And here we go from the Koran:

"They desire that ye should be infedels as they are infedels, and that ye should be alike. Take therefore none of them as friends, till they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and slay them wherever ye find them; but take none of them as friends or helpers..."

From Sura 4:90
If this translation is correct it speaks of expulsion from the Islamic lands...

If this translation is correct it speaks of expulsion from the Islamic lands...

"seize them, and slay them"?

Just a quick note. Any fundamentalism or extremism in religion is incredibly wrong and dangerous. Doesn't matter if it's the Islamic militants who think people who don't follow the religion should be executed, or the extremist Christians in the Ku Klux Klan who believe that all Jews are an "impure race". Doesn't matter if there's extremist or fundamentalist Hindus, Jews or Buddhists, they are all incredibly dangerous. It's not just the Islamic extremists who are dangerous.

Just a quick note. Any fundamentalism or extremism in religion is incredibly wrong and dangerous. Doesn't matter if it's the Islamic militants who think people who don't follow the religion should be executed, or the extremist Christians in the Ku Klux Klan who believe that all Jews are an "impure race". Doesn't matter if there's extremist or fundamentalist Hindus, Jews or Buddhists, they are all incredibly dangerous. It's not just the Islamic extremists who are dangerous.

? We're not talking about extremists!

We're talking about majority beliefs. See the links/discussion above; a majority of muslims whose job it is to decide these things believe in death for apostates, don't confuse a difficult issue further!

to quote "All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished... The majority of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be sentenced to death." Islamic scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/698d27d4-ec5d-429d-9ded-286e8d29d6eb.html

"seize them, and slay them"?


Not take them as a friend until they leave....

Don't let them return....

Just to clarify some points.

The question about islam being only the only religion that orders it's followers to murder people who leave islam was referring to a specific religion's book telling the followers of that religion to murder people who leave their religion - so I wanted to know whether there was any other religion which follows a religious book that demands murder for leaving that religion.

Here is a link http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544134

The koran does indeed say not to force people to JOIN islam - but if you have already joined, it fully advocates forcing you to remain muslim by threatening you with murder (which could explain the large amounts of muslims to day).

The Deuteronomy message in the Bible referred to is part of the Old Testament, which was believed to have been pretty-much overthrown by Jesus (who apparently ignored quite a few commands in it), which indicates that, as Liberal Christians often believe, the Old Testament was not actually written by God or was not ENTIRELY written according to what God had said (but was written by different authors - see http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora.htm and scroll down until you get to the coloured letters). The New Testament is followed by most Christians, and this book, narrating Jesus's life (and death and resurrection) on earth, and it sends a message of peace and love and forgiveness and tolerance. Even for those Christians who do believe that the Old Testament is the word of God, they claim that only THE ORIGINAL Bible in it's original language is free from error, and that any translations are subject to mistakes and/or bias, which is why it is suggested that people look at translations from different English versions of the Bible.

As for muslims practicing murdering people today based on the koran telling people to murder a person who leaves islam, just do a google search for "Abdul Rahman". Or click here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)

And Zilam, are you saying you think it's O.K. to murder people who convert from islam to a pagan or polytheistic religion??

And this post WAS NOT an attack on islam or muslims, it was a genuine query.

it fully advocates forcing you to remain muslim by threatening you with murder (which could explain the large amounts of muslims to day).

I don't think that's a sustainable argument at all - Islam is a religion, and the social, legal, and political structure that religions generate serve to maintain the religion.

to quote "All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished... The majority of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be sentenced to death." Islamic scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/698d27d4-ec5d-429d-9ded-286e8d29d6eb.html

The apostate should also get the chance to reconsider and if you ask the majority of Muslims as you claim this discussion is about they will not want to kill this person…

Why do most think that, just because it is written or said by al-Qaradawi, that people will act on it

I don't think that's a sustainable argument at all - Islam is a religion, and the social, legal, and political structure that religions generate serve to maintain the religion.

hwo can you say it's not a "sustainable" argument?? It says it in black and white in the koran...

anyway back to the original topic :)

The apostate should also get the chance to reconsider and if you ask the majority of Muslims as you claim this discussion is about they will not want to kill this person…



With all due respect, the question was about whether apostates should be killed, and the answer is yes.

Why do most think that, just because it is written or said by al-Qaradawi, that people will act on it

?

I don't think he is, or I am, suggesting that 'just because it is written or said by al-Qaradawi, that people will act on it'. This guy's offering a commentary on the prevailing trends among Islamic thinkers with regards to apostates; his importance to the debate is that he's informed as to what those trends are, and so can report back on them.

With all due respect, the question was about whether apostates should be killed, and the answer is yes.

If you're referring to my question, please read it again, thanks.

An apostate should NOT be killed for converting to another religion. They should be guided to the right path.

Religions don't kill people. People kill people.

Muslims are no more (or less) likely to kill non-believers than Christians, Jews, Hindus, whatever.

Muslims can find passages in their holy book which tell them to kill non-believer, just as Christians and Jews and Hindus (etc) can do.

Most Muslims and Muslim religious leaders will condemn such actions as not reflecting the "real Islam," just as most Christians and Christian religious leaders will condemn the same actions if perpetrated by Christians.

Christians have plenty of reasons why the murderous passages of the Bible don't really count, or why Jesus did away with that shit, or something else like that.* Guess what? Muslims have the same kind of stuff to say about the nasty bits of their book.

People are the ones who kill non-believers, not religions. If you're a crazy fuck who wants to kill people who don't agree with you, you can find justification for your actions in just about any religion you like. You can find a Bible passage or a page of the Quran that will tell you it's ok to be a batshit crazy murdering asshole. Knock yourself out. Just don't bullshit around like it's the religion that made you do it, or as if the religion is what really killed all those people you killed.



*Which leaves you wondering why the Christians pulled that evil bullshit during the Inquisition instead of the Jews, when the Jews are the ones who don't believe in Jesus. But that's a whole other topic.

The catholic church burned/hung/tortured a lot of Jews, Christians, catholics, muslims, buddhists, etc back in the dark ages for converting/not converting...

mmm....interesting we burned buddhist before we even kenw about asia?

No we kicked jews out of our country BIG DIFFERENCE.

Christians only killed mueslims because the Mueslims for a long time TRIED TO KILL US.

Besides waht he meant was modern day, Christians today do not resort to violent acts while Islam still has not brought itself out of it's Dark Age mentality.

We did mass conversion. You see what we did is convert a king then the King enforced Christianity on his subjects most of the time it was done peacefully.

Scientologists have murdered people who tried to leave Scientology.

True. There are also minor cults that force there members to commit suicide all the time.

Religions don't kill people. People kill people.

Muslims are no more (or less) likely to kill non-believers than Christians, Jews, Hindus, whatever.

Muslims can find passages in their holy book which tell them to kill non-believer, just as Christians and Jews and Hindus (etc) can do.

Most Muslims and Muslim religious leaders will condemn such actions as not reflecting the "real Islam," just as most Christians and Christian religious leaders will condemn the same actions if perpetrated by Christians.

Christians have plenty of reasons why the murderous passages of the Bible don't really count, or why Jesus did away with that shit, or something else like that.* Guess what? Muslims have the same kind of stuff to say about the nasty bits of their book.

People are the ones who kill non-believers, not religions. If you're a crazy fuck who wants to kill people who don't agree with you, you can find justification for your actions in just about any religion you like. You can find a Bible passage or a page of the Quran that will tell you it's ok to be a batshit crazy murdering asshole. Knock yourself out. Just don't bullshit around like it's the religion that made you do it, or as if the religion is what really killed all those people you killed.


*Which leaves you wondering why the Christians pulled that evil bullshit during the Inquisition instead of the Jews, when the Jews are the ones who don't believe in Jesus. But that's a whole other topic.

well spoken/posted...

Fundamentalists of any kind use religion, or other forms of ideology to force others to act upon their Fundamentalist beliefs.

[…] No we kicked jews out of our country BIG DIFFERENCE.
pogroms....
Christians only killed mueslims because the Mueslims for a long time TRIED TO KILL US.
Yeah, we ransacked Jerusalem because they tried to kill our invaders..
Besides waht he meant was modern day, [...] Islam still has not brought itself out of it's Dark Age mentality.
If you would actually study Islam and the Islamic world you'd know this is not true
We did mass conversion. You see what we did is convert a king then the King enforced Christianity on his subjects most of the time it was done peacefully
Brilliant, exactly the same in the Middle East and North Africa... It is even likely that during the rule of the Fatimids (10th-12th cent.AD) the majority of Egypt was Christian.

True. There are also minor cults that force there members to commit suicide all the time.
How the hell do they get new members, then?

"Oh bugger... our main recruiter topped himself"
"Just let me take my sleeping pills and vodka cocktail and I'll sort something out later"
*swigs*
"Ah shit"

And here we go from the Koran:

"They desire that ye should be infedels as they are infedels, and that ye should be alike. Take therefore none of them as friends, till they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and slay them wherever ye find them; but take none of them as friends or helpers..."

From Sura 4:90
Actually that's verse 4:89 you quoted. It's a shame you didn't quote 4:90 though...
Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

In other words, if these disbelievers' want to make peace and not war, we are commanded to make peace unconditionally.

Is it still done anywhere today?

Some places. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/22/afghan.christian/index.html

I imagine Iran's not too different.

Some places. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/22/afghan.christian/index.html

I imagine Iran's not too different.
Actually in Iran the judge gives you the option to reconsider... It is not perfect but still... It won't get you hanged either, unless you are really Fanatic, stubborn or stupid...

Also you are relatively free to act as you want in the privacy of your home...

snip
Wow, good catch.

If you're referring to my question, please read it again, thanks.

An apostate should NOT be killed for converting to another religion. They should be guided to the right path.

Says us! I was pointing out a majority of Islamic jurists (not extremists) feel and think differently; not that I agree with them, but that's what they think.



Muslims are no more (or less) likely to kill non-believers than Christians, Jews, Hindus, whatever.

Most Muslims and Muslim religious leaders will condemn such actions as not reflecting the "real Islam," just as most Christians and Christian religious leaders will condemn the same actions if perpetrated by Christians.

If you're a crazy fuck ... a batshit crazy murdering asshole.


?

Extremists were not being discussed.

Crazy fucks were not being discussed.

batshit crazy etc etc were not being discussed.

The subject was what the majority of the given religions thought about killing apostates. The majority of muslims who have studied the subject, and whose job it is to interpret and make pronouncements on the subject, believe that killing apostates from Islam is justified.

Ergo, the answer to the thread title seems to be 'yes - Islam is the only religion that kills people for converting to another religion' at the moment. Only if we go back in time far enough was the same was true of the jewish and christian religions.

Now, if there's more evidence to be presented, maybe now's a good time to do so, and we can amend the answer to the OP.

Actually in Iran the judge gives you the option to reconsider... It is not perfect but still... It won't get you hanged either, unless you are really Fanatic, stubborn or stupid...

Also you are relatively free to act as you want in the privacy of your home...

As an atheist, I imagine I'd be dead either way. I suppose I'd fake it to avoid hanging, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

The subject was what the majority of the given religions thought about killing apostates. The majority of muslims who have studied the subject, and whose job it is to interpret and make pronouncements on the subject, believe that killing apostates from Islam is justified.
Well, one, you have the issue of never addressing where the hell you're getting the majority from. Majority of ALL Muslims on the planet? That much have been one hell of a phone poll.

It be like saying the majority of Christians believe you should eat fish on Fridays.

In other words I want to see proof.

And I'm still waiting on a time frame for the modern era.

Extremists were not being discussed.

Crazy fucks were not being discussed.

batshit crazy etc etc were not being discussed.

The hell they weren't. Anybody who kills another human being for failing to bow before the correct Sky Fairy is batshit insane by definition. Any person who kills another human being for failing to conform to the appropriate type of superstition is a crazy murdering asshole.

You want to talk about people who kill non-believers? That's who you're talking about.


The subject was what the majority of the given religions thought about killing apostates. The majority of muslims who have studied the subject, and whose job it is to interpret and make pronouncements on the subject, believe that killing apostates from Islam is justified.

No, they do not. You can say it as often as you like, but it will not change reality. The majority of Muslims who have studied their own faith do not, in fact, believe that. Just like the majority of Christians don't actually believe that you should stone your child to death for cursing at you, even though the Bible says you should.


Ergo, the answer to the thread title seems to be 'yes - Islam is the only religion that kills people for converting to another religion' at the moment. Only if we go back in time far enough was the same was true of the jewish and christian religions.

*Shrug* You can put your fingers in your ears and whistle any tune you like.


Now, if there's more evidence to be presented, maybe now's a good time to do so, and we can amend the answer to the OP.
You haven't yet bothered with evidence...why start now?

As an atheist, I imagine I'd be dead either way. I suppose I'd fake it to avoid hanging, but I wouldn't be happy about it.
You could be an atheist... No problem... most people do not understand it though, and will think, that you are not to be trusted and have no morals...

because if you do not fear God what will you not do if you can get away with it?

A muslim becomming an atheist does have a problem, therefore most remain muslim, without acting on it...

ok I think he means modern times.

I don't hate muslims but...
There are 5 major religions in the world. Christianity Hinduism, Buhdism, the Muslims, and the Jews. There is only one religion fight the other four, and that is Islam. Yes they are Jihading (or at least they were a year ago) against Buhdists in Thialand.

So the annexation of Palestine in order to evict the Muslims and replace them with Jews in the '40s wasn't a 10th Crusade? What about the apocalyptic motivations of religious-right supporters of Bush and the Iraq War? The present campaign to proselytize theosanitized-JudaeoChristian "family values" in Africa, Asia, etc.? American Christian abortion clinic bombings? The radical religious right and its Christian Reconstructionist (Christian theofascist) associations?

That's assuming we're restricting ourselves to modern times, and not
counting the Inquisition, the original Crusades, the witchhunts, the imprisonment or execution of scientists during the Renaissance, etc.

That covers JudaeoChristianity; now to address Hinduism. My only comment here is that the Hindu-Islam conflict in India and Pakistan is not a war of the agressor and the innocent; it is a two-way, two-side, two-agressor conflict with theoterrorists on both sides. It takes two to tango.

Buddhism was set up from the start to be at least as much a philosophy as a religion, and to emphasize peace and individual conscience, and unlike the Abrahamic religions had no commandment to convert or terminate nonbelievers. It's a completely different issue. Yet still, it conflicts with Shintoism in Japan.

Ergo, the answer to the thread title seems to be 'yes - Islam is the only religion that kills people for converting to another religion' at the moment. Only if we go back in time far enough was the same was true of the jewish and christian religions.

That's incorrect. The Church of Latter-Day Saints, colloquially called Mormonism, includes the tenet that the only people out of all the mass of humanity who are going to hell are ex-Mormon apostates, and there have been instances in rural Utah where apostates (attempted apostates, more like) were killed for this.

Actually that's verse 4:89 you quoted. It's a shame you didn't quote 4:90 though...
Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
In other words, if these disbelievers' want to make peace and not war, we are commanded to make peace unconditionally.

Pwned! Go Bettia.

BUT the koran (quran / qur'an / qoran) -the book that muslims follow- categorically, undeniably, absolutely, unambiguously states that any muslim who converts to another religion MUST be murdered.


Ummmm ... no .... it doesn't.

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or your daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend tries to secretly seduce you, saying 'Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you and your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God... "(Deuteronomy 13:7-11)

Accompanied by this assurance that this is God's will: "Whatever I am commanding youu, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away." (Deuteronomy 13:1)

These are Christian verses, and they are pretty clear to me...

I believe those are considered Jewish verse as they are from the Torah and all. Now if you can quote Paul, peter, or most importantly Jesus, as saying the same, then you can say something about "those are christian verses"

Ummmm ... no .... it doesn't.


:D

Just like the majority of Christians don't actually believe that you should stone your child to death for cursing at you, even though the Bible says you should.





I wish you had mentioned this a little sooner. :p

I believe those are considered Jewish verse as they are from the Torah and all. Now if you can quote Paul, peter, or most importantly Jesus, as saying the same, then you can say something about "those are christian verses"

Can you quote Paul, Peter or most importantly Jesus specifically saying something like "btw - God has changed His mind. Respect all other faiths ?"

Unless you believe everything written in the OT became without value when Jesus died of course. But no selective picking.

I believe those are considered Jewish verse as they are from the Torah and all. Now if you can quote Paul, peter, or most importantly Jesus, as saying the same, then you can say something about "those are christian verses"
Last I checked, "The Bible" included both Old Testament and New. If the Old Testament was totally irrelevant to the Christian faith, why would it be included in the most holy text? Why would Christians continually cite passages from the Old Testament as if they had some bearing on Christian faith, if the "Jewish verses" don't apply to Christians at all?

It seems the more "fundamentalist" cewrtain believers style themselves, the less they live up to the spirit of the faith. Happens in Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and others too.

Absolutely.

no, but they are the only religion that continues to do so. stupid muslims, still living in the 11th century.

no, but they are the only religion that continues to do so. stupid muslims, still living in the 11th century.


:confused: ???!!!

:confused: ???!!!
what about that is confusing you?

what about that is confusing you?
A bit...

Is it ignorance, racism or sarcasm? :p

A bit...

Is it ignorance, racism or sarcasm? :p
none of the above. its just that in the medival era, many religions murdered people forom refusising to convert to/converting away from their religion. now its just islam. and i am making fun of them for doing something that all the other religions stopped.

none of the above. its just that in the medival era, many religions murdered people forom refusising to convert to/converting away from their religion. now its just islam. and i am making fun of them for doing something that all the other religions stopped.

actually Islam is no different than other religions, in this respect

none of the above. its just that in the medival era, many religions murdered people forom refusising to convert to/converting away from their religion. now its just islam. and i am making fun of them for doing something that all the other religions stopped.

You do know that not all Muslims believe in that shit, right? It's a mistake to think of all Muslims as believing in the same things, since there are so many sects in Islam and cultures that practice (or don't practice) it.

You do know that not all Muslims believe in that shit, right? It's a mistake to think of all Muslims as believing in the same things, since there are so many sects in Islam and cultures that practice (or don't practice) it.

This it true, the idea of a homogenous religion is a myth especially with Islam which has now main authority to interpret it's message.

There are as many interpretations of the Quran as there are muslims

So I have two questions:

1. Is islam the only religion that calls for people to be murdered if they escape islam


For starters, it is very stupid to say "Islam says"...because Islam is a collection of Qur'an, Hadiths and Sunnah and community traditions, individual interpretations and individual practices. Islam means different things to different people.

The Qur'an, the highest authority in Islam, does not explicitly call for apostates to be murdered.

It says, "kill those who spread mischief in the land" (IIRC) and the mullah can say "hey that apostate is spreading mischief in the world, kill him" and the apostate will be done away pronto. This kinda silences the apostates in muslim countries. That's why you don't hear about them much.

I do believe that if you catch the mullah by the balls and squeeze it enough, you can get him to find Qur'anic authority on pretty much anything you want to.:D :cool:

Actually in Iran the judge gives you the option to reconsider... It is not perfect but still... It won't get you hanged either, unless you are really Fanatic, stubborn or stupid...

Or unless you are none of those things but truly believe in God and in the Bible and thus believe that dying is better than doing something you consider to be an insult go God.

Or unless you are none of those things but truly believe in God and in the Bible and thus believe that dying is better than doing something you consider to be an insult go God.

Actually, that is what I meant with Fanatic, a willingness to die for your beliefs…
Perhaps I should have chosen a more neutral word that has less negative connotations than Fanatic, like Zealous for example.

Still, the religions are so similar, that I would not think that many would prefer death over these differences. Nor I have heard of this happening in Iran. I could be mistaken of course.

I think Multiland is making a distinction between what a religion advocates and what it's followers actually do. While the Christian Bible advocates tolerance of other people's beliefs, Christians in history rarely followed it's teachings. Muslims on the other hand were for a long time relatively tolerant of Jews, even though the Koran strongly encourages that all non-believers be killed.

When was this, o evil heathen*?! ;)


*noone here is actually a heathen. It's a joke... I hope everyone got it.

While the Christian Bible advocates tolerance of other people's beliefs, Christians in history rarely followed it's teachings.

Where does it advocate that?

Muslims on the other hand were for a long time relatively tolerant of Jews, even though the Koran strongly encourages that all non-believers be killed.

The Jews are, according to the Qur'an, 'People of the Book'. That is, they are people who worship Allah, albeit they're using incomplete and corrupted teachings about God. Under that premise, they are afforded a status better than idolaters and should be protected under Sharia law, but they're not Muslims either. It is interesting to note that Jews generally consider Islam a Noachide religion. When the tenets of Noachism are followed (which would be normal in conventional Islam), under Jewish law the Muslim is considered equal to a Jew for all legal purposes.

Christianity Hinduism, Buhdism, the Muslims, and the Jews.

I wouldn't consider Judaism a major religion. Atheism is much bigger in terms of adherents. If you're not willing to consider that a religion, then Sikhism fills that spot. The Jews account for, at most, 0.25% of the world's population. The Jews have made significant historical impact in the development of a number of cultures, yes, but they are a very small people.

In the OT the Hebrews killed people who DID convert.

The poor guys agreed to have their winger snipped, then the Hebrews attacked them the next day and killed them all.

Someone agreeing to be circumcised is not a legitimate conversion to Judaism. Most American men these days are circumcised. Are they Jews? Only a few of them. The decision to join the Jewish people must be made by a sober mind and cannot be made under duress.

and why isn't john's gospel jew friendly? Wasn't he a jew? wasn't jesus a jew? Weren't all the disciples Jews? And all of the early christians too? weren't they jewish?

Almost all of the of the early Christians were Gentiles. Very few Jews actually converted to Christianity when it was decided Christianity was to be a different religion.

Now, if you think that because John says things like the jews yelled and hollered for jesus to be murdered, it is anti jewish, then you are slightly off. I think it would be telling a historical account of the life and deaht of Christ.

Often the Gospels paint an unrealistic and incorrect view of other Jews, particularly of the Rabbis (in the form of the Pharisees, who later became the Rabbis). Rather than present Jews, the Gospels present a caricature of Jews that represents not actually what happened but rather a version that intends to distance itself from the Jews in order to make Gentiles more interested in converting.

Christian and Jewish holy books do support the death of apostates, but I can't think, off the top of my head, of any denomination that actually does this any more - it's been reinterpreted by more modern believers.

The way Jewish law developed, very few if any apostates were ever executed. While death was prescribed for many crimes, it's exceptionally difficult to actually carry out the prescribed sentence under Jewish law. The oral tradition is that in 3300 years of Jewish history, the things which are punishable by death have been broken millions of times, but the number of times the sentence has been carried out has consistently remained zero. That's probably not true from a historical perspective, particularly before the codifying of the Mishnah, but it's interesting as a demonstration of Jewish law at work.

So the annexation of Palestine in order to evict the Muslims and replace them with Jews in the '40s wasn't a 10th Crusade?

This happened? Not in this universe's history...

The present campaign to proselytize theosanitized-JudaeoChristian "family values" in Africa, Asia, etc.?

Christian, not "JudaeoChristian". The two religions have fairly little in common besides sharing some of their canonical texts.

I think it's just because they never had something like the enlightenment.

At one point, Muslims were the most literate and academic on the planet. Then came the Christians...

At one point, Muslims were the most literate and academic on the planet. Then came the Christians...

...and...? What do you think happened next?

The preeminence in intellectual and cultural achievements became european during the 15th to 17th centuries. Trade, exploration and exploitation of resources was at the centre of this, building off the renaissance and reformation. The sporadic military conflicts between the 2 power blocs over this time period weren't nearly as formative.