NationStates Jolt Archive

Looking at the ambulance photo from another thread, I was looking around for more photos of cars "hit by Israeli missiles" in the Lebanon conflict.

Here's a car, photographed by a Lebanese photographer, showing a car hit by an IAF missile.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/nassernasser.jpg

I find it pretty amazing that the top is knocked in, but the rest of the car is still there - even the windshield is still there. Call me suspicious, but I don't think this car was even hit by a small 20mm cannon shell. Even a 20mm shell would have blown out all of the windows on a roof hit. The smallest missile in the IAF inventory is the Hellfire, and that has a 50-pound charge - more than enough to completely dismember a car like this.

Here's what a car hit by a missile looks like in reality (this is an Israeli car that had a Katushya land on it).

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/destroyedcar.jpg

Looking at the ambulance photo from another thread, I was looking around for more photos of cars "hit by Israeli missiles" in the Lebanon conflict.

Here's a car, photographed by a Lebanese photographer, showing a car hit by an IAF missile.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/nassernasser.jpg

I find it pretty amazing that the top is knocked in, but the rest of the car is still there - even the windshield is still there. Call me suspicious, but I don't think this car was even hit by a small 20mm cannon shell. Even a 20mm shell would have blown out all of the windows on a roof hit. The smallest missile in the IAF inventory is the Hellfire, and that has a 50-pound charge - more than enough to completely dismember a car like this.

Here's what a car hit by a missile looks like in reality (this is an Israeli car that had a Katushya land on it).

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/destroyedcar.jpg


oh Kimchi, I hope you never change

Israeli missles must be pretty weak. :p

Here's what a car hit by a Hellfire missile looks like (50-pound warhead, pretty small).

In Yemen, by US Hellfire missile
http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2002/11/04-yemen-inside.jpg

OMG! What kind of a sick country would ever use deceiving propaganda to futher their cause?

My point is the "missile" hit in the other thread.

A picture of an ambulance with a hole in the roof (one large hole, about the size of a melon, and a fair number of smaller holes).

More like a hit from a hand grenade. Right in the middle of the Red Cross on the roof.

The picture is of an alleged IAF missile hit on an ambulance. I believe if it was a missile hit, the ambulance would be handfuls of scrap scattered about the landscape.

Dk, have you ever seen a video on youtube called pallywood? It's how they deliberately make fake conflicts and injuries to make Israel look bad. I ahve a feeling that hezbollah may be doing the same thing.

Here's the picture of the ambulance, allegedly hit by an IAF missile:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/redcross_wideweb__470x3520.jpg

Looks like someone put a hand grenade on the roof and pulled the pin.

If it had been hit by an actual missile, the ambulance would be in pieces no larger than the size of my hand.

maybe it didn't a splode. But then again where are the missile remains?


from the looks of it - something went thru the roof and came out the side of the car or something. I get this from looking at the doors (pretty jacked up) as well as the position of the car. Then again there are a lot of dents and wierd issues with this picture. It doesnt look like it rolled really.

If not a missile then what did cause the hole?

DK

the pics are hosted at photobucket...please provide reference for the pictures.

If you are going to take the media to task for bad reporting then you should at least follow some standards...even if the media does occasionally fall short.

maybe it didn't a splode. But then again where are the missile remains?


from the looks of it - something went thru the roof and came out the side of the car or something. I get this from looking at the doors (pretty jacked up) as well as the position of the car. Then again there are a lot of dents and wierd issues with this picture. It doesnt look like it rolled really.

If not a missile then what did cause the hole?

Not a weapon fired from an aircraft. It looks like someone used a sledgehammer on the car roof.

As for the ambulance, if it had been a bomblet from a cluster munition, you would have seen fist-sized holes every foot or so on the ambulance - very neatly spaced. You are NEVER hit from above by just ONE bomblet. It looks like someone put a hand grenade carefully on the Red Cross on the roof, and pulled the pin.

If not a missile then what did cause the hole?

Very large hail perhaps?

Very large hail perhaps?

The world is doomed :eek:

DK

the pics are hosted at photobucket...please provide reference for the pictures.

If you are going to take the media to task for bad reporting then you should at least follow some standards...even if the media does occasionally fall short.

The first photo (of the car) is from AP photographer Nasser Nasser, of the award-winning team (all AP) in Lebanon of Nasser Nasser, Lefteris Pitarakis, Kevin Frayer, Mohammed Zaatari, Ben Curtis, Hussein Malla, Kevork Djansezian and Dalia Khamissy.

The second photo (and subsequent photos in the OP) are not from Nasser Nasser.

I will post more AP photos in a few minutes.

The world is doomed :eek:

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/i-4270.jpg

Not a weapon fired from an aircraft. It looks like someone used a sledgehammer on the car roof.

As for the ambulance, if it had been a bomblet from a cluster munition, you would have seen fist-sized holes every foot or so on the ambulance - very neatly spaced. You are NEVER hit from above by just ONE bomblet. It looks like someone put a hand grenade carefully on the Red Cross on the roof, and pulled the pin.


the ambulance looks like it was hit with a hail of gunfire to me

as for the car - no it doesnt look liek a sledge hammer... more like jaws of life or something. same witht he way the doors ar twisted.

I was looking for cliffs that a boulder could have fallen from but a giant hail ball would make more sense since there is no evidence of what caused the hole lying around.

Oh, and all of the photos of "cars hit by missiles" are on yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/43fde7b9842c4aed91e9fffff2990ddb

AP photos.

I put them on my photobucket because news stories have a tendency to disappear. Reuters evidently did another picture kill today, of a young girl who was supposedly dead, with her mother grieving over her.

Then the second picture came in. Girl not dead.

More cars:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/bfa7b68031ea4874a534b06069b9aa01
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/4e853221e4d143989c939f00b0fed2b5

Looks like someone was busy with a sledgehammer.

Tires aren't even popped.

Oh, and all of the photos of "cars hit by missiles" are on yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/43fde7b9842c4aed91e9fffff2990ddb

AP photos.

I put them on my photobucket because news stories have a tendency to disappear. Reuters evidently did another picture kill today, of a young girl who was supposedly dead, with her mother grieving over her.

Then the second picture came in. Girl not dead.

More cars:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/bfa7b68031ea4874a534b06069b9aa01
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/4e853221e4d143989c939f00b0fed2b5

Looks like someone was busy with a sledgehammer.

Tires aren't even popped.

Wow! The girl wasn't dead. That doesn't mean that many other civilians didn't die in Lebanon.

the ambulance looks like it was hit with a hail of gunfire to me

as for the car - no it doesnt look liek a sledge hammer... more like jaws of life or something. same witht he way the doors ar twisted.

I was looking for cliffs that a boulder could have fallen from but a giant hail ball would make more sense since there is no evidence of what caused the hole lying around.

The ambulance is a larger hole surrounded by definite splatter from a central point. Exactly what you would get from a very small charge (like a hand grenade).

If it was from cluster bomblets, there would be far more radial fragment patterns - metal hit by cluster bombs looks uniformly damaged and perforated.

If it were from 20mm aerial cannon, there would be a 20mm hit (at least two or three fist sized holes) on the roof. Plus the splatter.

Wow! The girl wasn't dead. That doesn't mean that many other civilians didn't die in Lebanon.
No, it means the AP is using photographers who are lying to them about the context of the photos.

Oh, and all of the photos of "cars hit by missiles" are on yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/43fde7b9842c4aed91e9fffff2990ddb

AP photos.

I put them on my photobucket because news stories have a tendency to disappear. Reuters evidently did another picture kill today, of a young girl who was supposedly dead, with her mother grieving over her.

Then the second picture came in. Girl not dead.

More cars:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/bfa7b68031ea4874a534b06069b9aa01
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/4e853221e4d143989c939f00b0fed2b5

Looks like someone was busy with a sledgehammer.

Tires aren't even popped.

So nobody died in Lebanon, because Israeli bombs are useless, because they're secondhand US ones from Iraq (all the Arab killing power used up) and really its just an excuse to fradulently lodge car insurance claims by the Lebanese and Hezbollah. Fucken lovely.

So nobody died in Lebanon, because Israeli bombs are useless, because they're secondhand US ones from Iraq (all the Arab killing power used up) and really its just an excuse to fradulently lodge car insurance claims by the Lebanese and Hezbollah. Fucken lovely.

You will note I am not making that assertion. You are.

I am asserting that the photographers AP is using in Lebanon are lying about the context of their pictures.

Oh, and all of the photos of "cars hit by missiles" are on yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/43fde7b9842c4aed91e9fffff2990ddb

AP photos.

I put them on my photobucket because news stories have a tendency to disappear. Reuters evidently did another picture kill today, of a young girl who was supposedly dead, with her mother grieving over her.

Then the second picture came in. Girl not dead.

More cars:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/bfa7b68031ea4874a534b06069b9aa01
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060812/481/4e853221e4d143989c939f00b0fed2b5

Looks like someone was busy with a sledgehammer.

Tires aren't even popped.

Looks like what happens in those movies when a body falls out of a building onto a car. :D

You will note I am not making that assertion. You are.

I am asserting that the photographers AP is using in Lebanon are lying about the context of their pictures.

You imply certain things, and then you deny it and attribute those implications to other people. That's called being intellectually dishonest.

Definitely not sledgehammers. I've been to car shows where you get to pay a dollar to go off on a car with a sledgehammer. You just cant do that kind of damage with one, no matter how long you go at it or how many people there are doing the damage.

Israeli military said they would look into the incident. Why wouldn't they deny it was from an airstrike if it is soo plainly obvious that it isn't?

You imply certain things, and then you deny it and attribute those implications to other people. That's called being intellectually dishonest.
Saying that I'm saying something that I am not is intellectually dishonest.

Israeli military said they would look into the incident. Why wouldn't they deny it was from an airstrike if it is soo plainly obvious that it isn't?
Because no one is going to believe a denial without an extensive investigation.

So they can't deny it until there's an extensive investigation.

And, likely, when they find out it wasn't weapons from aircraft, they'll deny it then, and no one will pay any attention.

Saying that I'm saying something that I am not is intellectually dishonest.

Arguing with you is as futile as banging my head against a brick wall. I won't use the emoticon, because that's too damn obvious.

Arguing with you is as futile as banging my head against a brick wall. I won't use the emoticon, because that's too damn obvious.
You're the one putting words in my mouth.

If that isn't intellectually dishonest on a grand scale...

You're the one putting words in my mouth.

If that isn't intellectually dishonest on a grand scale...

OH THE IRONY

As you like. I'm finished. You can have the last word.

does someone here think that civilians dying in lebanon and dishonest photos being sold to AP are mutually exclusive?

does someone here think that civilians dying in lebanon and dishonest photos being sold to AP are mutually exclusive?

They are.

I'm not denying that civilians are dying (or recently killed) in Lebanon.

Dishonest photos have been, and apparently continue to be, sold to wire services.

They are.

I'm not denying that civilians are dying (or recently killed) in Lebanon.

Dishonest photos have been, and apparently continue to be, sold to wire services.
its bad enough that the moslem world buys hezbollah's propaganda hook line and sinker without having our own news services participate.

there were enough civilians killed in lebanon that there is no need to make anything up. i wish that the news outlets would take as hard a look at these photos as you have been. there are thousands of real photos that they could use. no need to use fake ones.

its bad enough that the moslem world buys hezbollah's propaganda hook line and sinker without having our own news services participate.

there were enough civilians killed in lebanon that there is no need to make anything up. i wish that the news outlets would take as hard a look at these photos as you have been. there are thousands of real photos that they could use. no need to use fake ones.

Evidently not enough photos.

I would post the link to that Lebanese rescue worker taking a dead body in and out and in and out of an ambulance repeatedly for the photographers who want another photo of him holding a dead body.

But that would probably violate the TOS.

Evidently not enough photos.

I would post the link to that Lebanese rescue worker taking a dead body in and out and in and out of an ambulance repeatedly for the photographers who want another photo of him holding a dead body.

But that would probably violate the TOS.
ya but geraldo rivera made an old lady walk back to where she was stranded after hurricane katrina so that they could get a better take of him rescuing her and her dog.

its becoming journastic tradition to stage photos in that manner.

ya but geraldo rivera made an old lady walk back to where she was stranded after hurricane katrina so that they could get a better take of him rescuing her and her dog.

its becoming journastic tradition to stage photos in that manner.
Indeed.

One of the problems I have today is that too many journalists are really in the business of sales, and that goes for places like the New York Times, Reuters, and AP, in addition to Fox.

And now the photos are so commonly mislabeled intentionally, or photoshopped that you can't trust a photo in the news.

Between the fake stories and photos, the Eason Jordan school of journalism is in full swing.

I don't see how anyone can go around saying things like "mainstream journalists are credible, but bloggers are not".

Chances are, a blogger isn't being paid to sell a story and set of photos.

Not a weapon fired from an aircraft. It looks like someone used a sledgehammer on the car roof.

As for the ambulance, if it had been a bomblet from a cluster munition, you would have seen fist-sized holes every foot or so on the ambulance - very neatly spaced. You are NEVER hit from above by just ONE bomblet. It looks like someone put a hand grenade carefully on the Red Cross on the roof, and pulled the pin.
I'd disagree that it looks like a sledgehammer hit it, because I've seen what happens when someone whacks a cars roof with a sledge, not only does the roof bust, but so do the windows. The car in the first image you posted looks like someone carefully cut open the roof and bent the slices back, if you look carefully, you can see how th edges around the hole are rounded, and the hole itself has a squarish appearance, not the likely damage from an impact of any sort.

I agree on the ambulance though, a cluster bomb, espescially the type the Israelis would be using would not operate like that. There's be multiple bomblet strikes at random points across the roof, instead of a single hit dead center.

Oh, and Reuters did a picture kill. First, corrected the caption:

CAPTION CORRECTION - CORRECTING REASON OF HOSPITALISATION Aya, an 18-month-old girl displaced from Tyre, cries after a routine operation at a hospital in Beirut July 24, 2006. REUTERS/Yannis Behrakis (LEBANON)

because they had first said it was a girl killed by the IDF.

The first picture:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/1.jpg

of the "dead" girl, had to be pulled in its entirety after the girl turned out not only to be alive, but the "victim" of a routine operation, not the IDF.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/2.jpg

Indeed.

One of the problems I have today is that too many journalists are really in the business of sales, and that goes for places like the New York Times, Reuters, and AP, in addition to Fox.

And now the photos are so commonly mislabeled intentionally, or photoshopped that you can't trust a photo in the news.

Between the fake stories and photos, the Eason Jordan school of journalism is in full swing.

I don't see how anyone can go around saying things like "mainstream journalists are credible, but bloggers are not".

Chances are, a blogger isn't being paid to sell a story and set of photos.

Fake news has been with us as long as there has been a news industry. Look at walter duranty. And people still think he is the bees knees.

CAIR likes to photoshop, too, just to put scarves on recalcitrant, disobedient women...

the original pic:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/noscarf.jpg

and the photoshopped, CAIR official version...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/scarf.jpg

This just in:

Deep Kimchi was right about the Red Cross Ambulance. And the rest of the world was taken in by the bullshit.

Evidence clearly here:

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

Surprise, surprise.

Not one single defender of all these faked photos. Not even the SR.

Maybe this guy has it right: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/shoptalk_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003019475

I love how Kimchi is so desperate to disprove everything that comes out of Hezbollah.

Soon enough he'll realise what we all know.

It's just propaganda.

Not interested. Not with the obligatory attendant smugness, anyway.

Surprise, surprise.

Not one single defender of all these faked photos. Not even the SR.

I also love how you take the fact that nobody really cares, because we all realise it's just propaganda, as some massive justification of your point.

It's like...a particularly dim child finally figuring out a puzzle long after all the other kids and then parading around saying how great and intelligent they are, and being outraged when nobody really gives a damn.

Surprise, surprise.

Not one single defender of all these faked photos. Not even the SR.

Maybe this guy has it right: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/shoptalk_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003019475
Damn, leave it to you to turn anyone not defending these into an accusation.

Damn, leave it to you to turn anyone not defending these into an accusation.
What else do you expect from him? This is a man who has stated that blogs are much more trustworthy than actual news outlets, because bloggers* who are thousands of miles away can LOOK AT PHOTOS and make absolute judgements which are infinately more correct and better than any journalist actually in the field.

And said bloggers don't even have to know what the hell they're talking about!

*Said bloggers much support DK's position of course or else they are obviously so liberally anti-Israel, pro-Islam biased that they are noth worth looking at.

snip

Thank you ever so much for that weblink. :)

You have fallen victim to your own propaganda. Scrolling through that web's archive I came across this photo in the "Hall of Shame" gallery:


http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/120-2038_IMG.JPG

One could read several meanings into that message.
: Remember the death toll of American soldiers in the bloody battle of Fallujah.
: Remember the loss of civilian life.
: Don't give up on the war. Terrorists are still out there. Remember Fallujah!
: Remember the near indiscriminate use of WP.


But no.

That tag line underneath the photo is.......





Terrorist sympathizer

You have unwittingly bought into a propaganda site hook, line and sinker. Kudos.

Edit: Because DK, this website is clearly biased towards a certain side and as such this bias permeates through their 'analysis' (some of which I disagree with from experience and other because the words 'assume' or 'probably' have knack of cropping up). As such, you might as well ask us to take "Loose Change" as a valid source because the bias in that, is as clear as the bias in this.

Edit: Because DK, this website is clearly biased towards a certain side and as such this bias permeates through their 'analysis' (some of which I disagree with from experience and other because the words 'assume' or 'probably' have knack of cropping up). As such, you might as well ask us to take "Loose Change" as a valid source because the bias in that, is as clear as the bias in this.

Translation:

"Because this website has bias, I have to assume that the ambulance was hit by a missile, even though facts (photos of missile hit vehicles) show that the ambulance could never have been hit by a missile - there's just far, far too much of the ambulance left to have been hit by anything. It isn't even burned, as the "victims" claimed."

and I might add

"Because it's the BBC in one of your other posts, DK, we think it's OK that they shoved a kid into the frame (they admit this, but that's ok) where a 1000 pound bomb was present to record the scene."

Translation:

"Because this website has bias, I have to assume that the ambulance was hit by a missile, even though facts (photos of missile hit vehicles) show that the ambulance could never have been hit by a missile - there's just far, far too much of the ambulance left to have been hit by anything. It isn't even burned, as the "victims" claimed."

So, you don't deny you're using a biased blog as a source?

While some questions are raised by the site (no more or less than "Loose Change" did), it is let down by several things. For instance:

Yet the ITV News video above purports to show evidence of the leg amputation. A picture flashes by very quickly as the narrator says "Two of the injured civilians in the ambulances received terrible additional wounds." When the video is viewed online, the image goes by too fast to be seen clearly, but I managed to get a freezeframe screenshot of the scene, shown here. What ITV implied was an amputated leg on one of the ambulance's gurneys appears, under closer inspection, to be a human hand on a stretcher that may or may not have anything to do with the ambulance in question.

I don't know about you, but I can't see jack shit in the still they talk about- hand or leg. To me,under closer inspection, it appears to be dog kibble. Their opinion is based on what?

Claim #7: The ambulance driver who reported the incident was injured in the attack.
He was filmed staggering into the hospital, and then later lying in a bed with large bandages on his chin and right ear. All the media reports state that he was injured during the missile attack.
Here he is again visible six or seven days later, posing for a sympathetic Lebanese photographer after all the Western journalists had left. Notice how his chin is not only miraculously healed after a very short span of time, but (as the close-up detail in the center reveals) shows no kind of scab, scar or discoloration of any kind. Note also that the second linked article states that he has "stitches" on his chin, indicating a deep wound.

OMFGshizzle!!11!! :eek: After having surgery recently, I received several stitches. Within a week they were gone. Why? Because there are such things as bio-degradable stitches, but no. Poor Lebanese hospitals can't possible have that.

Also there are no sources for some key photos (only their word that it is a still from an news broadcast- again no better no worse than "Loose Change"

The revealing of the biased material:
Zatar said "whether they are civilian, a resistance fighter or an Israeli soldier, our policy is to help any human who needs help..."
In the very sentence where he's trying to proclaim his neutrality, he reveals his political stance: Hezbollah militants are referred to as "resistance fighters."

Yeah? And? A lot of people don't fall into the trap of merely saying "terrrrrssst" just because the people that are bombing the shit out of your country and her ally say so. When the IRA waged its war against Britain in early 20th century it was proclaimed to be a 'terror' group also. Yet the people on the island did not call it that because they did not necessarily agree that label. While they may not have supported it, they didn't feel it was a 'terrorist' group.

Also, it seized on the comment about treating 'resistance fighters' while ignoring the Israeli soldier comment. But noooo. Lebanese Red Cross (or Crescent as "they shouldn't be Red Cross if its in Lebanon" as you claimed) are evil and would probably poison the soldier, right?

Imprinted on the national psyche of Lebanon is the first "Qana massacre,"
What I am querying is why there are " " involved here. Are they disputing the Qana Massacre in 1996? Why?


showing ambulance 782 in a parking lot prior to being moved to the Red Cross offices. Notice how the ground next to it is littered with shattered glass and bits of metal, including what looks like an overturned ventilation dome
They must have magic eyes or are again making a leap of faith to prove their angle (like "Loose Change") because I would be hard pushed to make anything out that could be called "an overturned ventilation dome". It looks far too small for that being less than half the size of the vehicles hubcap (while earlier photos show the dome to be quite large).

The site then goes at some lengths to disparage the IDF admission..... all examples of which are without evidence. It now proclaims to know what the IDF really meant! Shit. They must have some stonking great evidence to back that up, right? Right? Oh... wait no. Just supposition. Supposition, assumption and referencing to other blogs (totally unbiased "Little Green Footballs") as sources?!?

It then goes talking about the gunship/bullets theory but states that even if true (and according to their infinite analysis skills the most likely), they...condone it.

So yes, DK. Combined with my previous post, I believe this site as much as I believe "Loose Change". It has no credibility, only opinion and their analysis, frankly, is laughable in some areas.

"Whats that?"
*squints*
"I dunno.... metal?"
"OMG!!!11!! It must be the dome!"
"..no wait.. it's dog shit"
"OMG!!11!! Clearly they were carrying dog's who were transporting Katy. rockets! We've proved it! Lying Red Cross. Always out to get Israel."


and I might add

"Because it's the BBC in one of your other posts, DK, we think it's OK that they shoved a kid into the frame (they admit this, but that's ok) where a 1000 pound bomb was present to record the scene."

Well, I didn't comment on this before and didn't claim anything about it.

So, you don't deny you're using a biased blog as a source?


I'm not saying it's not biased - like is commonly said about sources like Reuters, AP, and the BBC - they are biased as well, or ignorant of the bias of their local stringers, or just don't care as long as it sells copy.

Let's look at this without bias for a second.

The smallest air to ground missile in the Israeli inventory is the Hellfire.

If a light vehicle (such as an ambulance) is hit by a Hellfire, there isn't anything left but a scorch mark and scraps of metal tossed about.

Here's a ground test of a Hellfire, hitting a tank. The tank is blown apart.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2445279951154179093&q=hellfire&hl=en

Now, just based on the technical aspects, tell me how the ambulance wasn't blown into bits. Assuming that it was hit by the smallest air to ground missile (and the victims claim it was a missile fired from aircraft) in the inventory.