NationStates Jolt Archive

Comentary: Here's the truth about the crusades and who started what. It's amazing, that even several centuries after the fact, they're still uptight over it . It's a HISTORICAL FACTUAL TIMELINE. Islamic apologists won't like it. So the next time someone blathering about Christians starting the crusades and how the west is eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil...(Oceandrive!)..






The Timeline

630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting “agreements” from northern tribes. They could enjoy the “privilege” of living under Islamic “protection” (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al-Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al-Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: “The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.” To this Khalid retorts: “How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many” (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: “[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists” (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades..........

All of those crusades are after Muhammad's death.

And refering to the Crusades, as in THE Crusades, were pretty much started by a statement by the Pope. I don't remember the exact wording, but he basically said it was time to take the holy land back from the Muslims.

Did you do this yourself or is there a source for it?

It's not nice to plagarize.

history, timeline, etc etc etc


After skimming your gargantuan post, I saw that you say "well people say the Muslims were angels and that OMG EVIL CHRISTIANS". Then you set down a timeline of very very VERY well known events, such as the spread of Islam into Syria, the fall of Constantinople, and so on. Who has claimed that the Muslims were perfect and never fought wars? I have not. Whoever has said such things denies clear history.

I'm at a loss to understand why so many of these "Islam isn't so perfect like you all think it is (even though hey you really don't think that at all and I'm just being intellectually dishonest)" posts have shown up. Maybe it's because DK makes ten of them every day?

Can we agree that the important thing to achieve is peace between West and East? Maybe fighting religious extremism on both sides of the world?

notice how he never mentions christian crusaders, and none of the atrocities commited by christian crusaders during, and after the siege and sacking of jerusalem. The whitest of washes.

Edit: look at his location, is this occeandrive trolling, or is he just making fun of occeandrive?

notice how he never mentions christian crusaders, and none of the atrocities commited by christian crusaders during, and after the siege and sacking of jerusalem. The whitest of washes.

Edit: look at his location, is this occeandrive trolling, or is he just making fun of occeandrive?

And their looting and near destruction of Constantinople.

And their looting and near destruction of Constantinople.

yeah a christian I might add, the Crusades weren't about religion it was about a pope making a grab for land and power, while unifying europe and getting rid of potential rival knights/lords

I must point out that religious crusades have occured connected to almost every religion. Almost always, the crusade has little to do with actual religion. Rather, it is the leaders using religion to motivate a war. Such things were common around the Middle Ages. In the case of the Christian Crusades, few of the soldiers fighting probably had any religious morals. They simply wanted to kill evil Muslims and Jews, and plunder cities. Same goes for the Muslim Crusades etc. etc. etc....

I must point out that religious crusades have occured connected to almost every religion. Almost always, the crusade has little to do with actual religion. Rather, it is the leaders using religion to motivate a war. Such things were common around the Middle Ages. In the case of the Christian Crusades, few of the soldiers fighting probably had any religious morals. They simply wanted to kill evil Muslims and Jews, and plunder cities. Same goes for the Muslim Crusades etc. etc. etc....
If religion is just being used to controll people why do people keep allowing themselfs to be controlled? (I happen to agree on much what you say)

Edit: look at his location, is this occeandrive trolling, or is he just making fun of occeandrive?

His sig says "Memeber 1 of the Jew Crew" or something like that, so I'd guess that it's DesignatedMarksman in puppet form.

His sig says "Memeber 1 of the Jew Crew" or something like that, so I'd guess that it's DesignatedMarksman in puppet form.

I'm pretty new. What exactly is the Jew Crew? A political group? A Jewish rowing team?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/magdalino.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/65/cr/Crusades.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm


all these seem to disagree with you the only one i found that agreed with you was a catholic think-tank:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
bias, much?

His sig says "Memeber 1 of the Jew Crew" or something like that, so I'd guess that it's DesignatedMarksman in puppet form.

Why don't I see this crap? man I am stupid


I'm pretty new. What exactly is the Jew Crew? A political group? A Jewish rowing team?

their a group of people who support Israel

The saddest part of the crusades was when Liam Neeson died.

Comentary: Here's the truth about the crusades and who started what. It's amazing, that even several centuries after the fact, they're still uptight over it . It's a HISTORICAL FACTUAL TIMELINE. Islamic apologists won't like it. So the next time someone blathering about Christians starting the crusades and how the west is eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil...(Oceandrive!)..






The Timeline

630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting “agreements” from northern tribes. They could enjoy the “privilege” of living under Islamic “protection” (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al-Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al-Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: “The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.” To this Khalid retorts: “How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many” (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: “[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists” (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades..........


I think Monty Python does the crusades the best .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/magdalino.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/65/cr/Crusades.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm


all these seem to disagree with you the only one i found that agreed with you was a catholic think-tank:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
bias, much?

They don't so much disagree with the history of the OP, the links you posted start where the OP ends... 1095

I think Monty Python does the crusades the best .


"It is merely a flesh wound!"

"But your whole arm is cut off!":D

Heres a some advice, go and Watch "Kingdom of Heaven" It does a very good job of capturing the Mentality that many people had. I especially love the phrase "There must be War, God wills it." (this movie takes place during the Seccond Crusades in which Jerusalem was lost to Salaadin. a very wise man. History of that time was written by the Catholic Church so Salaadin is depicted as a Heartless ruler, but when actually he was a wise and genle man who despised blood shed, but knew its neccessity)


Kingdom of Heaven also has a great line that i find very true and is why, Though i am a Christian, dont follow the Lines of any one Denomination completley . I go to a baptist church cause most of what they preach i agree with.

but any way the line is: "i put no stock in religion. I have seen terrible acts commited, and heard it called the will of God." or something like that.


During that time, people were so religious that it was easy to hide your own aims behind Religion, to use religion for your own power.

The butchering of the Muslims in the First Crusade was an act of Lunacy, but do not blame the whole religion for one mans choice, the pope ordered it, blame him. No where in the Bible does it say, Mathew 105:22- Butcher all Jews and Gentiles. no it preaches a message of Love to all people. Which all the "Bible Basheres" love to leave out of their glorious sermons on hating the Christian Religion.

Heres a some advice, go and Watch "Kingdom of Heaven" It does a very good job of capturing the Mentality that many people had. I especially love the phrase "There must be War, God wills it." (this movie takes place during the Seccond Crusades in which Jerusalem was lost to Salaadin. a very wise man. History of that time was written by the Catholic Church so Salaadin is depicted as a Heartless ruler, but when actually he was a wise and genle man who despised blood shed, but knew its neccessity)


Kingdom of Heaven also has a great line that i find very true and is why, Though i am a Christian, dont follow the Lines of any one Denomination completley . I go to a baptist church cause most of what they preach i agree with.

but any way the line is: "i put no stock in religion. I have seen terrible acts commited, and heard it called the will of God." or something like that.


During that time, people were so religious that it was easy to hide your own aims behind Religion, to use religion for your own power.

The butchering of the Muslims in the First Crusade was an act of Lunacy, but do not blame the whole religion for one mans choice, the pope ordered it, blame him. No where in the Bible does it say, Mathew 105:22- Butcher all Jews and Gentiles. no it preaches a message of Love to all people. Which all the "Bible Basheres" love to leave out of their glorious sermons on hating the Christian Religion.

A lot of people seem to ignore the sermon on the mount, which is one of the most moving pleas for peacemaking and charity ever made. You don't have to be religious to agree with a lot of the teachings of Jesus as documented. Paul's work - well, that's another thing entirely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade


"The First Crusade was launched in 1095 by Pope Urban II to regain control of the sacred city of Jerusalem and the Christian Holy Land from Muslims. What started as an appeal to the French knightly class quickly turned into a wholesale migration and conquest of territory outside of Europe"


http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

"calling on Christian princes in Europe to go on a crusade to rescue the Holy Land from the Turks"
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/magdalino.htm
alright got nothing for this one, mostly cause i couldnt tell what it was talking about it jumped around alot
http://www.bartleby.com/65/cr/Crusades.html

"Origins
In the 7th cent., Jerusalem was taken by the caliph Umar. Pilgrimages (see pilgrim) were not cut off at first, but early in the 11th cent. the Fatimid caliph Hakim began to persecute the Christians and despoiled the Holy Sepulcher. Persecution abated after his death (1021), but relations remained strained and became more so when Jerusalem passed (1071) from the comparatively tolerant Egyptians to the Seljuk Turks, who in the same year defeated the Byzantine emperor Romanus IV at Manzikert. 2
Late in the 11th cent., Byzantine Emperor Alexius I, threatened by the Seljuk Turks, appealed to the West for aid. "
url]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm[/url]

"The Crusades were expeditions undertaken, in fulfilment of a solemn vow, to deliver the Holy Places from Mohammedan tyranny."




so, Twist Facts much?

... You don't have to be religious to agree with a lot of the teachings of Jesus as documented. Paul's work - well, that's another thing entirely.


You don't like Paul's letters? You mean the stuff about equality of humans, about women being equal to men, about slaves being equal to masters, about all people rich or poor, wise or stupid, being equally in the blessings and love of Christ because no person can boast over another because all of them are equally indebted to the Christ?

That's too bad then, it's too bad that this is the stuff you don't like. Paul helped explain to us that we can have no arrogance one over another, we are all saved because of the Christ alone and not by anything we have done to deserve it individually. I hardly think Christ would disapprove of what Paul taught us.

A lot of people seem to ignore the sermon on the mount, which is one of the most moving pleas for peacemaking and charity ever made. You don't have to be religious to agree with a lot of the teachings of Jesus as documented. Paul's work - well, that's another thing entirely.

even the muslims but Jesus in their Historic Records cause they believed that he Had Deitorical Power, and that his please for Peace and Love were the best theyd ever heard

In the 7th cent., Jerusalem was taken by the caliph Umar. Pilgrimages (see pilgrim) were not cut off at first, but early in the 11th cent. the Fatimid caliph Hakim began to persecute the Christians and despoiled the Holy Sepulcher. Persecution abated after his death (1021), but relations remained strained and became more so when Jerusalem passed (1071) from the comparatively tolerant Egyptians to the Seljuk Turks, who in the same year defeated the Byzantine emperor Romanus IV at Manzikert. 2
Late in the 11th cent., Byzantine Emperor Alexius I, threatened by the Seljuk Turks, appealed to the West for aid. " [/I]


Little fact about Hakim; he's been documented as mentally unstable. From Wikipedia:

Towards the end of his reign he became increasingly erratic and feared by those around him - high ranking officials were executed frequently (including the Vizir Barjuwan), and a series of idiosyncratic laws were enacted, including the prohibition of Mulūkhiyya, a characteristic Egyptian dish, as well as the prohibition of chess. Ḥakīm allegedly punished cheating merchants by having a one of his slaves, Masoud, sodomize them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah

You don't like Paul's letters? You mean the stuff about equality of humans, about women being equal to men, about slaves being equal to masters, about all people rich or poor, wise or stupid, being equally in the blessings and love of Christ because no person can boast over another because all of them are equally indebted to the Christ?

That's too bad then, it's too bad that this is the stuff you don't like. Paul helped explain to us that we have no arrogance one over another because of the Christ. I hardly think Christ would disapprove.


no see, every body loves that, but because he said, Homosexuality is a curse upon god because we exchange what is natural for what is unatural, were basically doing the opposite of what God said so its a sin., people dont like that so they hate it. well i whom actually follow the religion, unlike some athiests who claim to know all about it, realize that you cant pick and choose what rules to follow. You take it all. Personally i dont agree with that. Really cause im indifferent to Homosexuality all together, i mean im not against it like im not gonna protest against them, but im not for it either, i wont support them. So while i dont neccecarily agree with it, i still follow it. Bible never said i had to agree with Gods Word, just said i had to live by it.

A lot of people seem to ignore the sermon on the mount, which is one of the most moving pleas for peacemaking and charity ever made. You don't have to be religious to agree with a lot of the teachings of Jesus as documented. Paul's work - well, that's another thing entirely.


I find it intresting is that We preach the Word of God to them because we love them and dont want to go to hell, and yet they hate us for loving them. ......intresting.

You don't like Paul's letters? You mean the stuff about equality of humans, about women being equal to men, about slaves being equal to masters, about all people rich or poor, wise or stupid, being equally in the blessings and love of Christ because no person can boast over another because all of them are equally indebted to the Christ?

That's too bad then, it's too bad that this is the stuff you don't like. Paul helped explain to us that we have no arrogance one over another because of the Christ. I hardly think Christ would disapprove.

I was thinking more concepts of original sin, his directions to slaves in 1 Corinthians, that sort of thing.

Little fact about Hakim; he's been documented as mentally unstable.


Crazy like a clever fox dude. I bet that sodomy punishment worked a treat.

I was thinking more concepts of original sin, his directions to slaves in 1 Corinthians, that sort of thing.

can u give me a referance so i might refute ure argument addiquitley....Thanks

Crazy like a clever fox dude. I bet that sodomy punishment worked a treat.

This is ure butt ( * )
This is ure butt in prison ( 0 )

Has the OP been reading Robert Spencer?

OP?

Okay in my book OP means Oral Pleasure, im not sure what ure talking about.:(

can u give me a referance so i might refute ure argument addiquitley....Thanks

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=Rsv1Cor.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=7&division=div1

1 Corinthians 7:21:
21: Were you a slave when called? Never mind. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.

also 1 Corinthians 7:1:
1: Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.

These are certain passages that I have a problem with. If you can give your interpretation, that would be fine. In the second quote, he goes on to say that marriage solves the problem, but I have an issue with the "sex is essentially immoral" point.

Crazy like a clever fox dude. I bet that sodomy punishment worked a treat.

I've got to say this...

and a series of idiosyncratic laws were enacted, including the prohibition of Mulūkhiyya, a characteristic Egyptian dish

Mulukhiyya is fucking nasty. He was right on the ball with that one.

Okay..now as i whip open my Teen Study bible. And for future refference, KING JAMES IS THE DAMDEST MOST CONFUSING HARD TO READ THING EVER

The New International Version (NIV) is much easier to read and understand, here ill translate


1 Corinthians 7:21:
21: Were you a slave when called? Never mind. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.

Translate to NIV: Where you a slave when you were Callled? Dont let it Trouble you, although if you can gain your freedom,do so. (see heres the catch, no single verse standd alone, they all must be ataken in context with other veses. cause heres the next verse) For he ho was a slave when he was called by the lord is the Lord's Freedman: similarly , he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave."

What Paul means is, It doesnt matter who you are, or where you come from, ALL have the ability to Serve God and Bring Glory to him. Hes telling the slave, though you are a slave to man, in God's Eyes, you are perfect and just as good as anyone around you, and are Able to further Gods Kingdom.


also 1 Corinthians 7:1:
1: Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.

Translate to NIV:

Now concerning the matters your wrote about [marriage] It is good for a man not to marry (again with the no verse stands alone rule) But since there is so much immorality each man shoulde have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.



When paul says it is Good not to marry its because, we should all be focused on God. God should be the Priority in our lives and by getting married we take away from that.

Paul is not saying that Sex is immoral, Saulomon the Wise, In Proverbs wrote about how sex for pleasure with your wife is a good thing.

Paul isnt saying sex is immoral, hes saying the Way The Romans were doing it was. He saying sex should be kept in the marriage, to keep it From becoming Immoral. cause we take the next verses

3: The husband should fulfill the marriage duty to his wife, and like wise the wife to her husband, 4 the wifes body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. IN the same way the husbands body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive eachother except by mutual consent and for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer,

hence the Keeping it from becoming immoral and the focus on god stuff.

OP?

Okay in my book OP means Oral Pleasure, im not sure what ure talking about.:(

It also stands fro Office of the President, Ocean Pacific, Order of Preachers, Observation Post, Operating Plan, Out Patient, Out of Print, Open Platform, and Original Post(er), among other initialisms. Take your pick - one of those is bound to be "Oceandrive's troll account"... ;)

You don't like Paul's letters? You mean the stuff about equality of humans, about women being equal to men, about slaves being equal to masters, about all people rich or poor, wise or stupid, being equally in the blessings and love of Christ because no person can boast over another because all of them are equally indebted to the Christ?

That's too bad then, it's too bad that this is the stuff you don't like. Paul helped explain to us that we can have no arrogance one over another, we are all saved because of the Christ alone and not by anything we have done to deserve it individually. I hardly think Christ would disapprove of what Paul taught us.

PS: i dub this Sigg worthy.......though had to edit a bit to make it fit

I'm pretty new. What exactly is the Jew Crew? A political group? A Jewish rowing team?
Jewish Rowing team would be more interesting.

yesmusic you gonna reply? dont mean to rush but i gotta go to sleep soon

yesmusic you gonna reply? dont mean to rush but i gotta go to sleep soon

Oh, sorry. I find your interpretations interesting. I might ask a few of the people I know who are practicing Christians what they think of the epistles, as some of them have voiced fairly negative opinions of some of Paul's ideas. Thanks for your detailed thoughts, though.

Oh, sorry. I find your interpretations interesting. I might ask a few of the people I know who are practicing Christians what they think of the epistles, as some of them have voiced fairly negative opinions of some of Paul's ideas. Thanks for your detailed thoughts, though.


As i said before i Go to a Baptist church cause to me they make the most sense. Gods law isnt there to be a pain in the ass, its there because by following it our lives become better. EXAMPLE: Premarital Sex. People dont like this rule cause hey, i wanna have sex, why should i wait till marriage, why cant i have it right now.


First off, No where in the bible does it say specifically "No sex before marriage" Its implied in 1st Corinthions chap 17, on the rules of marriage.

When you find yourself with someone you fall in love with, and want to get married, Intamacy, is a very big part of a marriage relationship. When you have sex with someone else, even if its years before you met them, it still hurts that intamacy, because you still think about ure pasts, you still remember them, you still have baggage from them, so on and so forth,

Now same situation, but one difference, Youre a virgin going into the marriage. You dont have the Baggage of Past Sex, you dont have the memories the hurt etc etc. All the memories of Sex is with your Spouce, thus the Intamacy is SO MUCH MORE. No sex before marriage isnt to be a pain in the ass, its for your bennefit farther down the road. 95% of people who have had sex with someone other than they are married to Regret it.. think about that.

Jewish Rowing team would be more interesting.

They'd never win though. Every time they try to get in the boat the water parts for them.

They'd never win though. Every time they try to get in the boat the water parts for them.


dude, that was uncalled for. i mean, joking with friends is one thing but, really that was tasteless

95% of people who have had sex with someone other than they are married to Regret it.
Where-ever did you get this idea?

Where-ever did you get this idea?
From his butt I'd wager.

Has the OP been reading Robert Spencer?
I doubt it. Robert Spencer uses long words.
Maybe someone translated Spencer's work into redneck for DM...whoops...sorry I mean Pooby.

From his butt I'd wager.
Maybe it's had bad experiences?

Muhahahahaha!

Anyways, there is only one Bible one needs to read: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Maybe it's had bad experiences?

Muhahahahaha!

Anyways, there is only one Bible one needs to read: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
First time I looked at that link I would have sworn it said, 'sceptics are not edible'.

They'd never win though. Every time they try to get in the boat the water parts for them
Ha ha!
dude, that was uncalled for. i mean, joking with friends is one thing but, really that was tasteless
But Gauthier is among friends.:)

Comentary: Here's the truth about the crusades and who started what. It's amazing, that even several centuries after the fact, they're still uptight over it . It's a HISTORICAL FACTUAL TIMELINE. Islamic apologists won't like it. So the next time someone blathering about Christians starting the crusades and how the west is eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil...(Oceandrive!)..






The Timeline

630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting “agreements” from northern tribes. They could enjoy the “privilege” of living under Islamic “protection” (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al-Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al-Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: “The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.” To this Khalid retorts: “How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many” (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: “[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists” (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades..........


And don't forget Helen.
Nope, ain't kidding.
East of Suez has been our enemy since times immemorial - and they started it.
No need to forgive 'em the slightest slight.

Crusades/Jihad thoose words that rulers have used to gain cheap troops in their bid for conquest and it was mostly the french that did the crusading agianst the near east

[QUOTE=Captain pooby]Comentary: Here's the truth about the crusades and who started what. It's amazing, that even several centuries after the fact, they're still uptight over it . It's a HISTORICAL FACTUAL TIMELINE. Islamic apologists won't like it. So the next time someone blathering about Christians starting the crusades and how the west is eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil...(Oceandrive!).. [QUOTE]

The 'crusades' generally refer to those started to take by the Holy land.

And besides its more fun to be evil;)