NationStates Jolt Archive

Right, this is it.

We've had a billion threads on it: Too few white children, too many immigrants, immigrants with the wrong views, immigrants with too many children, weak governments, racist governments, PC governments, skinheads, PC-police, the Islamic Republic of Eurabia......

But what I have never heard is a good idea for a solution. So I challenge all of you, especially the usual suspects (NN, AI, Europa Maxima, -Somewhere-, The Blessed Chris and the like) to work out a plan on how you want to save Europe from the flood of the wrong-skinned masses.

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.

EDIT: Weird, how Spiegel Online always has topical articles...
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,433006,00.html

I would say a combination of things is necessary. The first is better security to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants across the border. After the border is secure, combine that with easier immigration laws, more immigration processing points, and guest worker programs.

We should also try to increase economic growth and trade between countries to create economic opportunities and rising wages in these other nations that will increase demand for workers at home and will dissuade others from emigrating. Those who want to come can still do so, but those who remain will not be trapped in poverty or economic decay.

Um... abandon irrational tribalist ideologies and realize that it isn't much of an actual problem, after all?

People should be free to live where they want.

I don't know about europe, but I'd abolish private and faith schools. And home schooling.

Everyone goes to the same school, gets the same cirriculum (secular), has the same citizen classes etc. 4-14.

I think that would go a long way.

edit: 2r's in cirriculum.

People should be free to live where they want.

100% correct. That's why I want to increase economic growth worldwide; they should be free to immigrate to Europe or the US if they want, but they should also be able to find gainful employment in their home countries as well. No one should be forced to leave their country in order to have economic opportunity, and no one should be barred from entering another country to seek economic opportunity.

Remember.... that everyone has human rights.
Well there's your problem! Not everyone thinks that should be true.

Fascism.

100% correct. That's why I want to increase economic growth worldwide; they should be free to immigrate to Europe or the US if they want, but they should also be able to find gainful employment in their home countries as well. No one should be forced to leave their country in order to have economic opportunity, and no one should be barred from entering another country to seek economic opportunity.

Absolutely.

Kill off humanity.

No Humans=No problem

Guys, I was actually being a little bit serious. I want these guys who always rant against immigrants and immigrant communities to finally take a stance and tell us what the hell they want.

People should be free to live where they want.

No. They should fuck off.

Guys, I was actually being a little bit serious. I want these guys who always rant against immigrants and immigrant communities to finally take a stance and tell us what the hell they want.

I just told you.

No. They should fuck off.

but your Australian....

I would like to see loosening of immigration laws but other than that nothing we need doctors!

Guys, I was actually being a little bit serious. I want these guys who always rant against immigrants and immigrant communities to finally take a stance and tell us what the hell they want.
Vetalia is being quite serious. And rational and sane. We need more like her on NSG :)

No. They should fuck each other and mongrelize the "races."

That's better.

Vetalia is being quite serious. And rational and sane. We need more like her on NSG :)

Like him.

I was originally going to call my nation "Vetalii or Vetalium" but the first was too hard to say and the other sounded too much like "Valium".

Vetalia is being quite serious. And rational and sane. We need more like her on NSG :)
Oh, I know. I wasn't addressing him for a change. :p

I just told you.
Well, fascism and racism are two very different things. And besides, it might just carry a little more value if it comes from them themselves.

Well, fascism and racism are two very different things. And besides, it might just carry a little more value if it comes from them themselves.

Fine. Both.

Like him.

I was originally going to call my nation "Vetalii or Vetalium" but the first was too hard to say and the other sounded too much like "Valium".
Sorry, Sis! In another thread I could've sworn I made the same mistake the other way :p

We still need more like you!

but your Australian....

Your face is Australian.

100% correct. That's why I want to increase economic growth worldwide; they should be free to immigrate to Europe or the US if they want, but they should also be able to find gainful employment in their home countries as well. No one should be forced to leave their country in order to have economic opportunity, and no one should be barred from entering another country to seek economic opportunity.
Don't listen to him!

Your face is Australian.

a hot Australian? ;)

Guys, I was actually being a little bit serious.

I am being serious. There is no "problem." National/racial/cultural chauvinism is irrational nonsense.

Instead of wasting resources on the obstruction and demonization of immigrations, we should be concerned with productive goals - like creating global economic justice.

I am being serious. There is no "problem."
I'd be inclined to agree (mostly, not everything is peachy), but these days I'm afraid my view is becoming more and more a minority thing.

I'd be inclined to agree (mostly, not everything is peachy), but these days I'm afraid my view is becoming more and more a minority thing.
Find an identifiable group, and blame them.;)

We should send them to Canada. Make it their problem.

I'd be inclined to agree (mostly, not everything is peachy), but these days I'm afraid my view is becoming more and more a minority thing.

I would agree with you if radicalism was confined to the 1 gen of immigrants. The opposite happens though. It's the second and third generation (there really is no fourth yet) that show increasing alienation and radicalization.

That's the opposite of what everyone said should happen. Things are getting worse, not better.

We should send them to Canada. Make it their problem.
Problem?

Right, this is it.

We've had a billion threads on it: Too few white children, too many immigrants, immigrants with the wrong views, immigrants with too many children, weak governments, racist governments, PC governments, skinheads, PC-police, the Islamic Republic of Eurabia......

But what I have never heard is a good idea for a solution. So I challenge all of you, especially the usual suspects (NN, AI, Europa Maxima, -Somewhere-, The Blessed Chris and the like) to work out a plan on how you want to save Europe from the flood of the wrong-skinned masses.

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.

Its actually quite simple. We gradually reduce immigration to healthy limits....limits we can sustain.
All the while, we build up and invest in the countries which immigrants and flooding from....once they are built up and stable...there wont be much need to emmigrate from them...some may still want to, and thats fine, we will be able to sustain them.

As for why immigration is bad, aside from racial/cutlural reasons....watch this video. It has my support 110% http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069&q=roy+beck

Its actually quite simple. We gradually reduce immigration to healthy limits....limits we can sustain.
All the while, we build up and invest in the countries which immigrants and flooding from....once they are built up and stable...there wont be much need to emmigrate from them...some may still want to, and thats fine, we will be able to sustain them.

As for why immigration is bad, aside from racial/cutlural reasons....watch this video. It has my support 110% http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069&q=roy+beck
Sounds kinda like Vet's idea.

Sounds kinda like Vet's idea.
Could be...I didnt read the other posts in this thread. Let me go read his.

But while I'm doing that...what do you think of my idea?

Edit: Yeah, its more or less the same idea....more or less.

I would say a combination of things is necessary. The first is better security to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants across the border. After the border is secure, combine that with easier immigration laws, more immigration processing points, and guest worker programs.

We should also try to increase economic growth and trade between countries to create economic opportunities and rising wages in these other nations that will increase demand for workers at home and will dissuade others from emigrating. Those who want to come can still do so, but those who remain will not be trapped in poverty or economic decay.

i have to say..pretty damn logical to me.

addresses the major issues.

could work in the us as far as i am concerned,starting with securing the borders first and foremost,but easing legal immigration for honest people looking to better their life.

one thing you failed to address was the drain that low income immigrants place on the social services...it is not exactly fair to tax them when they make substandard wages..yet it is equally unfair to tax the average citizen of a country to pay for services they themselves are not qualified to recieve.
at least thats the stupid system here in the u.s.

this is not anti immigrant,but i make more then is allowed to recieve any medical or dental assistance..yet i have skin cancer(untreated)and most of my teeth are missing due to an auto accident(also untreated)
but illegals get medical care,i do not...but i pay taxes? they do not,not that they should...nor should i in my opinion.
it also makes medical care virtually impossible for me to afford due to the fact that the prices are inflated due to the state(which taxes me for this)to freely treat illegals,at cost to me(taxes)and private doctors would laugh at me if i asked for care...so i go to the hospital for minor things,like illegals...but i get a grossly inflated bill..they get nothing...
this is hardly equitable.
this is also why there is so much resentment towards illegals...by what many claim are rednecks...when in point of fact..it is grossly unfair for an insured liberal socialist to say..your a bigot..nothing to do with it..you have insurance and recieve medical care,and while i respect the fact that you want everyone to recieve it...which i do as well...you take money from my pocket to pay for illegals health...and throw me to the dogs.
believe me..i got the er bills to prove it...and an illegal doesnt....and i pay taxes!

I would say a combination of things is necessary. The first is better security to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants across the border. After the border is secure, combine that with easier immigration laws, more immigration processing points, and guest worker programs.

We should also try to increase economic growth and trade between countries to create economic opportunities and rising wages in these other nations that will increase demand for workers at home and will dissuade others from emigrating. Those who want to come can still do so, but those who remain will not be trapped in poverty or economic decay.

i have to say..pretty damn logical to me.

addresses the major issues.

could work in the us as far as i am concerned,starting with securing the borders first and foremost,but easing legal immigration for honest people looking to better their life.

one thing you failed to address was the drain that low income immigrants place on the social services...it is not exactly fair to tax them when they make substandard wages..yet it is equally unfair to tax the average citizen of a country to pay for services they themselves are not qualified to recieve.
at least thats the stupid system here in the u.s.

this is not anti immigrant,but i make more then is allowed to recieve any medical or dental assistance..yet i have skin cancer(untreated)and most of my teeth are missing due to an auto accident(also untreated)
but illegals get medical care,i do not...but i pay taxes? they do not,not that they should...nor should i in my opinion.
it also makes medical care virtually impossible for me to afford due to the fact that the prices are inflated due to the state(which taxes me for this)to freely treat illegals,at cost to me(taxes)and private doctors would laugh at me if i asked for care...so i go to the hospital for minor things,like illegals...but i get a grossly inflated bill..they get nothing...
this is hardly equitable.
this is also why there is so much resentment towards illegals...by what many claim are rednecks...when in point of fact..it is grossly unfair for an insured liberal socialist to say..your a bigot..nothing to do with it..you have insurance and recieve medical care,and while i respect the fact that you want everyone to recieve it...which i do as well...you take money from my pocket to pay for illegals health...and throw me to the dogs.
believe me..i got the er bills to prove it...and an illegal doesnt....and i pay taxes!

other then that minor issue..your right on point as far as i am concerned.

socialism disgusts me...but in this day and age..medical care should not be only for the rich or for the illegals..seeing as the uninsured are paying for it for both.

Could be...I didnt read the other posts in this thread. Let me go read his.

But while I'm doing that...what do you think of my idea?

Edit: Yeah, its more or less the same idea....more or less.
I think it just might work. No politician is ever going to go for it.

Um... abandon irrational tribalist ideologies and realize that it isn't much of an actual problem, after all?

People should be free to live where they want.

That doesn't change any of the problems associated with Arab immigration into Europe. Disenfranchisement, unemployment, cultural dissociation, religious extremism, etc. and all of the pressures, resentments, and othet ticking time-bombs those cause exist however the immigrants actually get into Europe.

Right, this is it.

We've had a billion threads on it: Too few white children, too many immigrants, immigrants with the wrong views, immigrants with too many children, weak governments, racist governments, PC governments, skinheads, PC-police, the Islamic Republic of Eurabia......

But what I have never heard is a good idea for a solution. So I challenge all of you, especially the usual suspects (NN, AI, Europa Maxima, -Somewhere-, The Blessed Chris and the like) to work out a plan on how you want to save Europe from the flood of the wrong-skinned masses.

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.


I don't have a problem with Immigrants. America is a melting pot with immigrants coming from many countries.

However, illegal immigration poses a large security threat. The fact a large group of slow moving people leaving a large trail can get past Border patrol is worrisome. And the people who could easily slip in.

I think it just might work. No politician is ever going to go for it.
Well then, if todays politicians are too stupid to act on it, we'll just have to wait for tomorrows, which I will be a part of.

And you can bet your ass I'd act on it.

Well then, if todays politicians are too stupid to act on it, we'll just have to wait for tomorrows, which I will be a part of.

And you can bet your ass I'd act on it.
But I would never vote for you.

But I would never vote for you.
But you're Canadian.;)...So I would never run for you.

You can not have socialism and an open border. The poorer countries populations will come by the millions and suck nations social services and tax base dry. If you want social services for only the native population you will have to have an army to protect your border because people will naturally want to go to where they can live at a higher standard. Another option is to cut back massively on social spending and let immigrants pay their own way into society with out sucking the native population dry. The third option is to do nothing and hope riots dont break out like what happened in France (but much worse) and hope your country does not go broke from providing benefits to the entire third world.

But you're Canadian.;)...So I would never run for you.
And I'd never move to the country you are running in.

Put up a big sign in Sudan that says "Welcome to America".

As for why immigration is bad, aside from racial/cutlural reasons....watch this video. It has my support 110% http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069&q=roy+beck
Ugh. After the way you built this up, I was almost looking forward to it. But this sort of stuff doesn't help anyone forward. He's pretending there actually are two jars of M&Ms. There isn't...there is only one jar that's filling up.

These people need to stop making differences between different spots within the jar.

Especially if he pretends talking about the environment.

As for the idea of helping poor countries...well duh. But at best that is a very long-term solution, and what happens to millions of people who have any right on the planet to go and live wherever they want in the meantime isn't being adressed.

There is only one solution to all problems: education.

first tighter immigration laws. NOT to prevent immigration but the ability to pick and choose.
Second. Make it more economically feasible to individuals/couples to have children at a younger age, I feel its left too long in alot of europe (30s) to have children. Tax breaks for having more children, etc...This option is only open to people born in the country. This would hopefully alieviate the NEED for immigrants.
Third. Wealthare. Newly arrived immigrants cannot benefit until they have live in the country for X amount of years. Thus having paid taxes, etc... So they are not simply viewed as a drain on the nation.

SNIP

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.


Human rights exist in order to further nice societies.
Not to destroy 'em.
They are a means to an end, NOT an end by itself.

[Human Rights] are a means to an end, NOT an end by itself.
That's amazing.

You may have totally, utterly and completely missed the point of the Enlightenment period (and thus everything that distinguishes the West from the Rest), and got stuck somewhere before.

No. They should fuck off.

You're Australian. Are you one of those guys who wrote inflammatory T-shirt slogans during the beach confrontations last year?

That's amazing.

You may have totally, utterly and completely missed the point of the Enlightenment period (and thus everything that distinguishes the West from the Rest), and got stuck somewhere before.

Suppose you were right, and I totally, utterly and completely missed the point of the Enlightenment.
Let us suppose so, for argument's sake.

So what? What about it?

I do NOT hold with the values of the French revolution, nor with the philosophers that sort of led to it.
I'm a solid Burkean philosophical Conservative, with contempt for the 'everything goes' philosophy.

And I should really like to know what makes you claim that the West is superior to the stringent, Conformist, anti-individualistic societies of, say, Confucianist countries.
If your claim is that the West is merely different, not superior, then I claim it is a distinction without a difference.

The individual exists to serve, and not to be served.

If it be your purpose to maintain what merely makes the West different from everything else, then I propose that you just kick the immigrants, including yours truely, out of here, and be done with it.

100% correct. That's why I want to increase economic growth worldwide; they should be free to immigrate to Europe or the US if they want, but they should also be able to find gainful employment in their home countries as well. No one should be forced to leave their country in order to have economic opportunity, and no one should be barred from entering another country to seek economic opportunity.
I agree 100% that increased opportunity will decrease the need for illegal immigration. Maybe this needs to spin off into another thread, but how do you increase trade and economic growth in a country like ... Rwanda? How about Guatemala? Even Mexico? My point is that for trade, the country has to have something to trade, same for economic growth. And even some of the poorest countries have things to trade, but they have despotic and corrupt rulers that will suck up any of the benefits.

Right, this is it.

We've had a billion threads on it: Too few white children, too many immigrants, immigrants with the wrong views, immigrants with too many children, weak governments, racist governments, PC governments, skinheads, PC-police, the Islamic Republic of Eurabia......

But what I have never heard is a good idea for a solution. So I challenge all of you, especially the usual suspects (NN, AI, Europa Maxima, -Somewhere-, The Blessed Chris and the like) to work out a plan on how you want to save Europe from the flood of the wrong-skinned masses.

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.

LOL...I note that I'm the first "usual suspect" you mentioned. And thx for creating my dream thread...:D

Let's call this Nordlander method. When I say immigrants, I mean non-Europeans. Immigration within Europe doesnt count.

1) Close borders of Europe (EU+NO+IS+CH+Balkans(not Turkey)) to further immigration.

2) Above might be too unrealistic so start a quota system. i.e: 10,000 immigrants per year. Or the goal should be like "immigrants and their descendants should comprimise no more than 10% of the population by 2100" and base quotas on that target. The point is that the overwhelming majority should stay as an overwhelming majority and not overrun as all the current projections say they will be.

********2.3) (I know this is unlikely) Deport everyone who cant integrate. i.e: extremist, parents who dont let their daughters to go to swim courses because she'd wear too less, etc...

********2.7) (Surreal) Sorta like a return to 19th century and early 20th century ethnic nation state concept. Deport all immigrants and their descendants who arrived after WW2. This can be done in a humane way. Economic incentives can be used. For ex: An unemployed immigrant (and there are too many of them...like 40% in France) receives welfare here and it is only enough to get by here. If he's deported to a 3rd world country and receive the same amount, he'll be rich there as everything is much cheaper there. And with extra money he may start his own bussiness there and stop the need for welfare. Besides, it'll be like foreign investment for 3rd world countries as well. For ex: if you deport 50,000 Congians to Congo and pay them welfare money you are already paying, it'd be good for Congo too.
And / or send the immigrants to Canada. It's a wealthy, progressive, fully functioning immigration society and a hugely underpopulated country.

3) Illegal immigrants are a no-no. Intercept them, process them (i.e: Give medical attention if required) and deport them. Dont encourage further illegal immigration by amnesties and soft approaches. Illegal immigrants give lots of money to people smugglers and this money is used as a capital for other crimes.

4) As for asylum seekers, temporarily accept them if only their lives are in danger. They should go back once the danger in their home country passes.

5) If some or all above options cause labour shortage, fear not. For ex, the unemployment in Germany is like 10% but it still admits hundreds of thousands immigrants annualy. If there are no jobs, what are these people doing? This is so B.S. If there are jobs, tell unemployed people to do it or loose welfare. Of course this doesnt include people like disabled or who cant work for whatever reason. If you must have cheap labour, use people from new EU member states.
And start researching robotics technology to produce robots to do jobs with repetitive works noone wants to do (for ex: cleaning toilets). Japaneese are already doing it.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2742/daytechdec140jh7.jpg

If half the EU farm subsidies were spent on robotics research, we’d have robots like in Star Wars within 20 years.

6) Increase retirement age. I dont know but I wouldnt want to wait to die when I get old. I'd prefer being productive. And technology advances fast, avg dieing age might be 100 within 20 years. Look at Susan Sarandon, she's 60 and even I think she's kinda hot.

7) Enact pro-natal policies. They make a huge difference. France is kinda pro-natal and with 1.9 births per women. Germany sux and it's got 1.3 births per women. Pro-natal policies include paid leave from work when parents get children or tax breaks for larger families (positive encouragement) or pension fund penalties for people without any children (excluding medical conditions)(negative encouragement). It makes sense since they are leaving noone to support them.

I guess that's it. As you might have understood, these are for Europe only. I really dont care about USA or others. They are already full immigration societies anyways. I'd appreciate it if Americans dont answer to this as they dont understand the "nation"/established ethnicity & culture concept.

Edit: I forgot this:

8) Icrease help to developing countries and address the problem at the source. If developing countries become developed, its citizens wouldnt need to immigrate for economical reasons. Increased help means more aid, technology transfer, better trade deals and pardoning of debts...

Edit 2: This has just popped into my head. For ex: Sweden spends lots of money to help immigrants to integrate. Instead of this, she can deport these trouble makers and send the money as aid to 3rd world countries. Wouldnt this be more effective and help more people? This is just another example how there are many alternatives to do things and do them in a good way. If people want to live in a diverse western society, instead of trying to change where they live, they should just move to USA or Canada or AUS or NZ...It's not hard....

Maybe it's just because I'm an absolute hippie, but I really think that everyone should be able to live where they want to live. The whole argument we have here in Australia against letting in genuine refugees is because of national security. I personally say, let them in. It's highly unlikely that a terrorist would come to our shores under those pretences. As a matter of fact, I can only think of one suspected terrorist coming to our shores illegally and that was by helicopter, not by leaky, life-threatening boat.

Right, this is it.

We've had a billion threads on it: Too few white children, too many immigrants, immigrants with the wrong views, immigrants with too many children, weak governments, racist governments, PC governments, skinheads, PC-police, the Islamic Republic of Eurabia......

But what I have never heard is a good idea for a solution. So I challenge all of you, especially the usual suspects (NN, AI, Europa Maxima, -Somewhere-, The Blessed Chris and the like) to work out a plan on how you want to save Europe from the flood of the wrong-skinned masses.

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.


1. I believe that immigrants happen, even if you don't want them. And, immigration has been a good thing for the US - we're mostly the descendants of people who were thrown out of every decent country in the world, and we've done exceptionally well - in fact, I would bet "better" than if those people had stayed out.

2. I would make it so that if you want to come to the US for anything except tourism or a short business trip, you have to become a US Citizen.

3. I would change the rules on becoming one.

4. No felons, no asylum seekers, no people with terminal diseases who can't work, and no people with anti-American sentiments (we're going to use NLP techniques to question everyone who wants to come here).

5. If you can prove that you have a usable work skill, and are capable of working to support yourself, and can find a job within 30 days of arriving and are supporting yourself and whoever else you bring, you become a citizen - otherwise, we pack you up and ship you home.

6. No government services such as welfare or Medicaid for the first 90 days.

7. Oh, and you're going to have to swear a loyalty oath to the Constitution (just like you do now), except that I might add a few more lines that say that you place your allegiance to any country, group, or religion BEHIND your support of the Constitution.

LOL...I note that I'm the first "usual suspect" you mentioned. And thx for creating my dream thread...:D

Let's call this Nordlander method. When I say immigrants, I mean non-Europeans. Immigration within Europe doesnt count.

1) Close borders of Europe (EU+NO+IS+CH+Balkans(not Turkey)) to further immigration.

2) Above might be too unrealistic so start a quota system. i.e: 10,000 immigrants per year. Or the goal should be like "immigrants and their descendants should comprimise no more than 10% of the population by 2100" and base quotas on that target. The point is that the overwhelming majority should stay as an overwhelming majority and not overrun as all the current projections say they will be.

********2.3) (I know this is unlikely) Deport everyone who cant integrate. i.e: extremist, parents who dont let their daughters to go to swim courses because she'd wear too less, etc...

********2.7) (Surreal) Sorta like a return to 19th century and early 20th century ethnic nation state concept. Deport all immigrants and their descendants who arrived after WW2. This can be done in a humane way. Economic incentives can be used. For ex: An unemployed immigrant (and there are too many of them...like 40% in France) receives welfare here and it is only enough to get by here. If he's deported to a 3rd world country and receive the same amount, he'll be rich there as everything is much cheaper there. And with extra money he may start his own bussiness there and stop the need for welfare. Besides, it'll be like foreign investment for 3rd world countries as well. For ex: if you deport 50,000 Congians to Congo and pay them welfare money you are already paying, it'd be good for Congo too.
And / or send the immigrants to Canada. It's a wealthy, progressive, fully functioning immigration society and a hugely underpopulated country.

3) Illegal immigrants are a no-no. Intercept them, process them (i.e: Give medical attention if required) and deport them. Dont encourage further illegal immigration by amnesties and soft approaches. Illegal immigrants give lots of money to people smugglers and this money is used as a capital for other crimes.

4) As for asylum seekers, temporarily accept them if only their lives are in danger. They should go back once the danger in their home country passes.

5) If some or all above options cause labour shortage, fear not. For ex, the unemployment in Germany is like 10% but it still admits hundreds of thousands immigrants annualy. If there are no jobs, what are these people doing? This is so B.S. If there are jobs, tell unemployed people to do it or loose welfare. Of course this doesnt include people like disabled or who cant work for whatever reason. If you must have cheap labour, use people from new EU member states.
And start researching robotics technology to produce robots to do jobs with repetitive works noone wants to do (for ex: cleaning toilets). Japaneese are already doing it.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2742/daytechdec140jh7.jpg

If half the EU farm subsidies were spent on robotics research, we’d have robots like in Star Wars within 20 years.

6) Increase retirement age. I dont know but I wouldnt want to wait to die when I get old. I'd prefer being productive. And technology advances fast, avg dieing age might be 100 within 20 years. Look at Susan Sarandon, she's 60 and even I think she's kinda hot.

7) Enact pro-natal policies. They make a huge difference. France is kinda pro-natal and with 1.9 births per women. Germany sux and it's got 1.3 births per women. Pro-natal policies include paid leave from work when parents get children or tax breaks for larger families (positive encouragement) or pension fund penalties for people without any children (excluding medical conditions)(negative encouragement). It makes sense since they are leaving noone to support them.

I guess that's it. As you might have understood, these are for Europe only. I really dont care about USA or others. They are already full immigration societies anyways. I'd appreciate it if Americans dont answer to this as they dont understand the "nation"/established ethnicity & culture concept.

Edit: I forgot this:

8) Icrease help to developing countries and address the problem at the source. If developing countries become developed, its citizens wouldnt need to immigrate for economical reasons. Increased help means more aid, technology transfer, better trade deals and pardoning of debts...

Edit 2: This has just popped into my head. For ex: Sweden spends lots of money to help immigrants to integrate. Instead of this, she can deport these trouble makers and send the money as aid to 3rd world countries. Wouldnt this be more effective and help more people? This is just another example how there are many alternatives to do things and do them in a good way. If people want to live in a diverse western society, instead of trying to change where they live, they should just move to USA or Canada or AUS or NZ...It's not hard....
*applauds*

This is *EXACTLY* what Europe needs. If I ever moved to Europe (which I dont plan on)...and you ran as a politician with these ideas, I'd vote for you no problem.

I would agree with you if radicalism was confined to the 1 gen of immigrants. The opposite happens though. It's the second and third generation (there really is no fourth yet) that show increasing alienation and radicalization.

That's the opposite of what everyone said should happen. Things are getting worse, not better.
Things are getting better...

Groups of immigrants have always adapted, but the second and third generations form a group that is especially vulnerable. Living in two worlds, of both the parental and the dominant culture, can be quite strenuous. The most important issue is that they will feel welcome, though uneasy, in the dominant culture nonetheless.

We should not force assimilation on them, and give them the opportunity to grow to their full potential by fighting racism and helping them to integrate.

The fourth generation does not pose problems, because they have become a subculture of the dominant culture. Problems will arise if racism and relative depravity are widespread, however.
...

Hmmm.... I say make Mars inhabitable using, like big mirrors to reflect sunlight or summink, then move all the Muslims there. Make it slightly cooler though, so their women dont get too hot under the veil. Then they can have a whole WORLD of Allah-loving, and we can have our world of naughtiness, immorality and Western debauchery without them waffling on about it and spoilin' our fun:p Deal? I think this is a practical proposal

It's rather simple really. Create a second class of citizen, namely 'Immigrant citizen'. For the first ten years that they're here, they can only work minimum wage jobs, and aren't qualfied for Medicare, Social Security, or whatever the European equivilant is. They also can't vote, own more than a certain amount of property, or marry (if they're already married, that's fine). In addition, everybody needs to carry proof of citizenship (or a visa if they're just visiting) at all times. A force will be created (I'm sure there'll be plenty of volunteers) to randomly check people they suspect of being illegals, and if this is so, deport them. In addition, border security will be heightened.

This should A) lower the amount of people who want to immigrate B) make handling those who do immigrate easier, and C) Make it easier to deport illegals.

-Edit- Upon further consideration, lower the period of Immigrant Citizenship to one year, after which they become a full fledged citizen of whatever country.

It's rather simple really. Create a second class of citizen, namely 'Immigrant citizen'. For the first ten years that they're here, they can only work minimum wage jobs, and aren't qualfied for Medicare, Social Security, or whatever the European equivilant is. They also can't vote, own more than a certain amount of property, or marry (if they're already married, that's fine). In addition, everybody needs to carry proof of citizenship (or a visa if they're just visiting) at all times. A force will be created (I'm sure there'll be plenty of volunteers) to randomly check people they suspect of being illegals, and if this is so, deport them.

This should A) lower the amount of people who want to immigrate B) make handling those who do immigrate easier, and C) Make it easier to deport illegals.


If you make it too long a period, people will just walk in like they do now. You have to make it easy to become a citizen.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11586126&postcount=53

1. I believe that immigrants happen, even if you don't want them. And, immigration has been a good thing for the US - we're mostly the descendants of people who were thrown out of every decent country in the world, and we've done exceptionally well - in fact, I would bet "better" than if those people had stayed out.

2. I would make it so that if you want to come to the US for anything except tourism or a short business trip, you have to become a US Citizen.

3. I would change the rules on becoming one.

4. No felons, no asylum seekers, no people with terminal diseases who can't work, and no people with anti-American sentiments (we're going to use NLP techniques to question everyone who wants to come here).

5. If you can prove that you have a usable work skill, and are capable of working to support yourself, and can find a job within 30 days of arriving and are supporting yourself and whoever else you bring, you become a citizen - otherwise, we pack you up and ship you home.

6. No government services such as welfare or Medicaid for the first 90 days.

7. Oh, and you're going to have to swear a loyalty oath to the Constitution (just like you do now), except that I might add a few more lines that say that you place your allegiance to any country, group, or religion BEHIND your support of the Constitution.

Goddam liberal

Goddam liberal
Sorry, I'm not a liberal. And I hardly see this as a "liberal" policy.

If anything, it leans libertarian. Want to enjoy liberty in our country? Just agree to work hard here and agree to join the club. If you don't want to work hard, and you don't want to join the club, hit the road.

That easy.

Goddam liberal

You're kidding right?

If you make it too long a period, people will just walk in like they do now. You have to make it easy to become a citizen.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11586126&postcount=53

Right... I should probably add heightening border security in there, huh.

Right... I should probably add heightening border security in there, huh.
Well, if I make it easy, I don't have to have as much border security, because people will walk to the "Become A Citizen" center at the border, instead of trekking across the desert.

Well, if I make it easy, I don't have to have as much border security, because people will walk to the "Become A Citizen" center at the border, instead of trekking across the desert.

The other thing that comes to mind is pressuring/helping whatever the source country of this other nation is to improve/make available education, as I suspect at least some illegal immigrants are so for the sake of giving their children better opportunities. Which I guess falls under the already discussed increase economic aid/trade.

-Edit- For that matter, I say America just takes over the world. Boom, no more immigration.

Solve the Immigration Issue!

Am I the only one who's a little weirded-out (and highly amused) that this is a thread about finding the "final solution" for the "immigration problem"?

I'm just sayin'.

Don't blame me. I didn't say it.

And, it's easy to see that my solution is pretty easy, pretty cheap, and pretty workable. And it doesn't involve killing anyone.

Solve the Immigration Issue!

Am I the only one who's a little weirded-out (and highly amused) that this is a thread about finding the "final solution" for the "immigration problem"?

I'm just sayin'.

Don't blame me. I didn't say it.

And, it's easy to see that my solution is pretty easy, pretty cheap, and pretty workable. And it doesn't involve killing anyone.

Damn timewarps!

People should be free to live where they want.

No. They should fuck off.


They should fuck off...

Yeah, fuck off!!!

Beginning with those pesky English criminals that have flooded Australia!

Australia must remain pure, Australia to the Aboriginals!!

:D

They should fuck off...

Yeah, fuck off!!!

Beginning with those pesky English criminals that have flooded Australia!

Australia must remain pure, Australia to the Aboriginals!!

:D

No, no. That wasn't immigration that was colonization/deportation. Completely different system.

They should fuck off...

Yeah, fuck off!!!

Beginning with those pesky English criminals that have flooded Australia!

Australia must remain pure, Australia to the Aboriginals!!

:D
America is for the IndIans!

Don't blame me. I didn't say it.

And, it's easy to see that my solution is pretty easy, pretty cheap, and pretty workable. And it doesn't involve killing anyone.

Well, that's a first... ;)

America is for the IndIans!

No, that's just American jobs.;)

Well, that's a first... ;)
No, it's not. I've proposed this solution before, in a previous thread about immigration.

People ignore any post by me that doesn't involve something outrageous, and allowing people to immigrate freely as long as they register, work, aren't criminals, and swear loyalty to the Constitution isn't outrageous enough for anyone to remember.

No, it's not. I've proposed this solution before, in a previous thread about immigration.

People ignore any post by me that doesn't involve something outrageous, and allowing people to immigrate freely as long as they register, work, aren't criminals, and swear loyalty to the Constitution isn't outrageous enough for anyone to remember.

Maybe if you threw in some crossdressing leprechauns...

So what? What about it?
So you obviously failed to integrate and should be deported to wherever you came from. Afterall, we can't tolerate deviants, can we?

I'm a solid Burkean philosophical Conservative, with contempt for the 'everything goes' philosophy.
Unless you're going to stand here and tell anyone that immigration is some person's social experiment to change the world and not simply a gradual change to European society, you can't use his name in argument. What we see today is human nature in action, is indeed natural and should (in his view) be a good thing.
Of course, he wasn't as much a philosopher but a politician, meaning that nothing he said can be taken out of the context of 18th century Britain and applied anywhere else. Even if he ever described people or society then properly (which I doubt), it wouldn't apply today. Too much has changed since then, and any attempt to reverse the clock would be the sort of artificial experiment based on abstract ideas (like an ethnically pure nation state), the sort of thing that he couldn't have agreed with.

If your claim is that the West is merely different, not superior, then I claim it is a distinction without a difference.
And in which case no one should talk about a defense or end of the West, because the West never even existed in any meaningful way.
Face it: The Enlightenment, Rationality, Individualism and the understanding of Human Rights...that's what our society and our success is based upon. If you want authoritarian, traditionalist societies you can look at the Middle East, or indeed the China of little Emperor Pu Yi.

The individual exists to serve, and not to be served.
Based on what? Seriously, where is your reasoning? Does it even exist? Or am I just to submit to your whim? Who do I serve anyways? You? John Howard? The Pope?
Fact is that I certainly don't have a natural hang for mindlessly serving other people or concepts. Nor do I see this with many people...indeed, if you ask anyone today that they only exist to serve [concept A], you'd either get astonished gasps or a slap. Such is the change that the Enlightenment brought, and which makes Western society what it is.

If people want to live in a diverse western society, instead of trying to change where they live, they should just move to USA or Canada or AUS or NZ...It's not hard....
No one is trying to change anything, you know. There is no master plan. No one is trying to take your Norway away.

Fact of the matter is that the world is globalising. Goods, services, information and money are going everywhere in no time flat. No one can think even for a minute that this will somehow exclude people. It's been like that before, during the first globalisation before WWI: People from the colonies came (or were brought) to Europe in droves, formed their own little communities. Compared to perhaps 200 years before, that was a massive leap in terms of different ethnic groups living together.

The idea of the nation state is dying. Already most governments can do little but react to the developments of an international economy. As people travel more (as you can witness in the EU) and become more flexible in choosing a place to live, social policies begin to lose power as well. 50 or more years on, I don't think people will think of their nationality (ie what is written on their passport) nearly as much as they do today.

I just don't see how you guys can have such a problem with that. I mean, sure, I enjoy a good read through the history book as well, and imagining all the neat stuff people used to do, and the rise and fall of great empires...but that's history. It's over, you can't bring it back. And besides, great empires never bring food on the table. Only individual achievement does - you need to stop thinking of people in categories, and start thinking of them as people.
I'm sure you guys know as well as anyone else (deep down somewhere, perhaps) that the idea that different ethnic groups can't live together is bullshit (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bowen.htm) and always has been. There has pretty much never been a war that was fought because of ethnicity rather than much more real things (mainly economics) - hell even the crusades weren't so much about religion as they were about Europe's internal politics and the money made off the Silk Road.

No, that's just American jobs.;)
...Wrong Indians? Unless you mean in the casinos!




Takin' it too far!

...Wrong Indians? Unless you mean in the casinos!




Takin' it too far!

Ah, I just have a general problem with the whole Indian thing. I mean they don't live in India now do they?

No, it's not. I've proposed this solution before, in a previous thread about immigration.

People ignore any post by me that doesn't involve something outrageous, and allowing people to immigrate freely as long as they register, work, aren't criminals, and swear loyalty to the Constitution isn't outrageous enough for anyone to remember.
You are right, you did not make an outrageous post and it did not involve any final solutions. I was just joking...

I sincerely hope, I did not offend you..

...no people with anti-American sentiments (we're going to use NLP techniques to question everyone who wants to come here).
I don't think that fits with the spirit of the constitution (the whole freedom of speech business comes to mind). What's next? Checking citizens too? Deporting anyone who disagrees with XYZ war/policy?

Quite aside from the fact that NLP is pseudo-science and should hardly be a reason to deny people their right to move and live wherever on their planet they want to.

I don't think that fits with the spirit of the constitution (the whole freedom of speech business comes to mind). What's next? Checking citizens too? Deporting anyone who disagrees with XYZ war/policy?

Quite aside from the fact that NLP is pseudo-science and should hardly be a reason to deny people their right to move and live wherever on their planet they want to.

It's not pseudo-science. Sorry. The proof is in three decades of El Al flights without a single hijacking, and no planes hijacked out of Ben Gurion Airport in three decades.

I'm not looking for army recruits or anything - just looking to make sure people don't want to come to the US just to blow it up.

Hmmm...my idea is somewhat US-centric. Europe may need a bit of a different plan.

First off, student visas are OK, but they have to be renewed every year, and progress reports must be shown. People will be asked what they studied and will be required to demonstrate proof of that. People can stay as long as, let's say, four years on a student visa; after that, they either become a citizen or go home.

We administer the test to all presently illegal immigrants. We make them jump through a few doable but significant hoops to become citizens...you know, the type of things that people can do fairly easily as illegals (ask them if they have a job, etc.) Those who fail get deported; those who pass become citizens. The test goes to all those who are in this country illegally. This weeds out those who have no intention of becoming citizens.

A new rule goes into effect that children born in the U.S. must have at least one parent who is a U.S. citizen in order to be citizens themselves.

No one who enters the U.S. on a student visa may go to flight school or train to work in any field of mass transportation, especially the airlines. Also, one must wait six years from becoming a citizen in order to attend flight school or work on an airline. This means U.S.-born citizens must wait until at least their sixth birthday to go to flight school, not that this should be a problem.

People who work in this kind of field (immigration screening and, what the heck, airline security as well) should be paid handsomely and receive nice benefits, including a solid pension. This is contingent on doing their jobs to the best of their ability, however; any person who, by willful action or blatant negligence, allows a person to enter the U.S. or board a plane or whatever who ends up committing a terrorist act goes to prison for a long time and forfeits all benefits associated with the job. I am thinking a minimum 15-year sentence. I watched the Court TV special on the 9/11 Commission Report, and the U.S.'s security was so full of holes, negligence, and blatant stupidity that it was infuriating. I hope the people responsible for it are in jail.

Ah, I just have a general problem with the whole Indian thing. I mean they don't live in India now do they?
Meh. I've always called 'em Indians, and I'm not gonna change. And, anyways, it's seems like an insult to say "Native Americans". Why do they need a qualifier? They were here first...

Meh. I've always called 'em Indians, and I'm not gonna change. And, anyways, it's seems like an insult to say "Native Americans". Why do they need a qualifier? They were here first...

Which I think is what the native implies... Actually, best argument I've heard for USian. Not that I've heard it, but whatever. I'm not even really sure what the right term is.

Things are getting better...

Groups of immigrants have always adapted, but the second and third generations form a group that is especially vulnerable. Living in two worlds, of both the parental and the dominant culture, can be quite strenuous. The most important issue is that they will feel welcome, though uneasy, in the dominant culture nonetheless.

We should not force assimilation on them, and give them the opportunity to grow to their full potential by fighting racism and helping them to integrate.

The fourth generation does not pose problems, because they have become a subculture of the dominant culture. Problems will arise if racism and relative depravity are widespread, however.
...

Except the first generation is not radical, only the second and third, so you can't say that.

Anway, I'm not forcing assimilation. People can live, believe, and do what they like. They just all have to go to the same schools until the are 16. And I mean everyone.

Right, this is it.

We've had a billion threads on it: Too few white children, too many immigrants, immigrants with the wrong views, immigrants with too many children, weak governments, racist governments, PC governments, skinheads, PC-police, the Islamic Republic of Eurabia......

But what I have never heard is a good idea for a solution. So I challenge all of you, especially the usual suspects (NN, AI, Europa Maxima, -Somewhere-, The Blessed Chris and the like) to work out a plan on how you want to save Europe from the flood of the wrong-skinned masses.

Remember that there are economic and legal issues, and that everyone has human rights. Avoid totally nonsensical ideas, I want something that could actually work.

For me to come up with a solution I would have to think there was a problem.

For me to come up with a solution I would have to think there was a problem.
I guess you don't care that people die every day crossing in the desert from Mexico to the US. That's a problem, isn't it?

I don't think that fits with the spirit of the constitution (the whole freedom of speech business comes to mind). What's next? Checking citizens too? Deporting anyone who disagrees with XYZ war/policy?

Quite aside from the fact that NLP is pseudo-science and should hardly be a reason to deny people their right to move and live wherever on their planet they want to.

The constitution is quite specific about immigration. Congress can regulate it anyway it wants.

The only problem with calling Native American folks "Indians" is that we get them confused with, umm, the other "Indians" now. You have to do a double-take sometimes when people refer to something being "Indian" so it's clear which one they mean.

Nowhere is this more confusing than in my apartment, where we have travel souvenirs from a few different places on one big stand. Or as I like to say, everything on the stand is Indian, except for one thing, which is Indian. Translation: Everything on the stand is Indian (Navajo, specifically, obtained from various parts of eastern Arizona) except for one thing, which is Indian (from India and given as a souvenir from my fiancee's best friend.)

"Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited and as a corollary the market for technologies is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists. I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development." - Old School

That quote is perfect! Sooner or later some of us are actually going to realize that we are running out of habitible space on this world and will need to either find more room on Earth (assuming we can clean up this hell-hole) or find elsewhere to allow expansion.

We worry too much about the present that we find it hard to look to the future. Imigration issues will solve themselves, whether it's through human extinction or human progression and expansion.

Except the first generation is not radical, only the second and third, so you can't say that.

Anway, I'm not forcing assimilation. People can live, believe, and do what they like. They just all have to go to the same schools until the are 16. And I mean everyone.
We are mainly dealing with problems from the second and third generation.... So the problem is decreasing... Moreover policies can help reduce tension.

I'll say it once more. The best solution is for America to take over the rest of the world. No more immigration, no more issue, see?

I'll say it once more. The best solution is for America to take over the rest of the world. No more immigration, no more issue, see?

I think that would piss off at least a few billion people.

I think that would piss off at least a few billion people.

Not if we did it secretly. Like exporting our crappy culture all over the world and exporting our inflation with T-bills.

Oh, wait.....

Nevermind.

I'll say it once more. The best solution is for America to take over the rest of the world. No more immigration, no more issue, see?

Do as Khadafi does; simply unilaterally declare a union with another country...

Do this with all countries, call these countries US states under the US constitution...

You do not even have to fight a single war...

Immigration problem solved

I think that would piss off at least a few billion people.

Well, we'll do it slowly and sneakily. Like... Canada first. Every night, we repaint the borders a couple of yards. It's a long scale plan, but that will eventually give us all of Continental North, South, and Central America. Then we pick a fight with China over something, and 'occupy' them, and then, by some strange chance, 101% of them will vote to join the US, (at that point, who's gonna call us on it?). Then we use the same strategy to take over Asia, Europe and Africa, and are we really worried about Australia?

Not if we did it secretly. Like exporting our crappy culture all over the world and exporting our inflation with T-bills.

Oh, wait.....

Nevermind.

Just wait until they find out...

I'll say it once more. The best solution is for America to take over the rest of the world. No more immigration, no more issue, see?
How'd that turn out for Britannia?

I don’t know the idea of immigration is a problem in itself; it is the way that happens. It is hard for me to be anti-immigration as that I am an immigrant myself, and I am aware that immigration can be a great benefit to a country, but I do see some problems with immigration here. Most of these problems stem from those that don’t want to join the society of the country. I don’t think I could ever become Welsh to were that the Welsh would accept me as Welsh mainly because of my accent, but I try to fit to society as well as I can. However, I have seen incidences here where it is obvious to me that some immigrants don’t want to Welsh or British. The area where I live is near an area that seems to be almost all Muslim Asians. I know women that have gone to stores and been refused service by the male workers, which they thought was because they are not Muslim. I don’t go in that area anymore because I don’t like the looks that I get from many of the people for just walking down the street.

This is not an easy problem to solve, especially seeing as that many of these people are second-generation so you can’t just “send them back” like you hear some people call for. I would think the first thing is to limit non-EU immigration. The Home Office has estimated that around 600,000 immigrants for the new EU countries have come here since 2004. This should help feel most of the job gaps that Brits can’t or won’t fill, seeing that there are only 60 million people in the UK in the first place. For the gaps that still exist, immigration from outside the EU should be allowed. So doctors, nurses, etc. should have preferential entry, as well as those than have a company offering them a job before they enter. All non-EU immigrants should have to pass an exam in one of the official languages and an exam of cultural values like some of the German Länder already do. All non-EU students that come here providing that they aren’t native speakers should have to take the language exam as well and all students should have to pass the cultural exam. If either group wish to bring their families, and they don’t have adequate knowledge of one of the official languages, they should have to agree to have to take language courses and culture classes as a condition to come here. Asylum seekers should take these tests, and if they don’t pass but meet the other requirements to be granted asylum, should be required to take the language and cultural classes once in the UK. In all schools, there should be some form education of cultural values.

Anyone that comes into the country and later tries to spread ideas dangerous to the public should be sent back to their native country. By this, I mean the most extreme examples, such as Abu Hamza al Masri, who was preaching that it was okay to kill Brits under certain circumstances because of their religious beliefs, not someone that just happens to not like the Prime Minister, etc. It should not matter if they became citizens or not because such behaviour should void this.

Asylum seekers who has not had their application processed yet should have to register where they live, and if they fail to do so or move and do not inform the correct authorities in a timely manner should be deported. All illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers should be deported, and any immigrant harbouring them should face deportation if they were aware of the illegal’s status. If a British person is harbouring an illegal or hires an illegal knowingly, they should be subject to large fines and possible jail time.

As well, the countries that receive many immigrants should help to develop business and give aid in a way to countries that many immigrants come from so that it becomes less attractive for people to immigrate in the first place.

How'd that turn out for Britannia?

Well duh. They're tea-sipping scone-scoffing twats. Of course they were bound to fail. We're America! One nation under GOD! We can't lose, get it?

Just kidding, all you British people out there. No need to come burn our capital again.

I'm -Somewhere-, but I didn't log in from NS in a month so my account ceased to exist. Bah.

Anyway, an absolute ban on immigration from islamic countries should be introduced, with limited immigration still allowed from more culturally closer countries.

Illegal immigration should be cracked down on. We should introduce a large border patrol force to prevent illegals from getting in at all. Obviously some will still slip through the net, which is why we need crippling financial penalties for any employers that knowingly employ illegal immigrants, possibly with jail time for the worst perpetrators. Also introduce cash rewards for people who inform authorities of these corrupt companies. Speed up the deportation process, using immigration centres like in Australia.

There also needs to be government policies that encourage more children. This could be achieved by things like an increase in child benefits, greater tax breaks for the number of children and better paternity leave. They should also use tax incentives to encourage families with children to have a stay at home parent, a much better alternative to most western governments' policy of shoving as many kids as possible into daycare.

I would also like to see government cultural policies that place the established native culture over foreign cultures, and a permanent abandonment of multiculturalism. A greater patriotic emphasis in schools would be necessary, particularly in history lessons. Headscarves should be completely banned in schools as well as the police, civil service, ect. Christianity should be the only religion taught in RE (Note: I'm not a christian, I just think that christianity has always been an important part of our culture). There should be a closure of all islamic schools, heavy taxes being levied against mosques and the premanent closure of any mosques linked with extremism. There should be financial incentives for repatriation. Any muslim extremists should (If they're citizens) have their citizenship revoked and be deported, even if they face persecution in the countries they get sent to.

I could probably thing up a few more things, but I'm sure you get the picture.

<snip>


As I said before, us arguing is very futile. You'd never change my opinion and I'll never change yours. So, let's agree to disagree. You can have both Americas for your "one world one culture one race" BS but leave Europe to people like me. It's small and not too much to ask for. Besides, except Canada, the climate is much better in Americas...

Sounds like a way to flood other peoples countries with cheap labor. And getting rid of nations ex-cons. Send them somewhere else to work. Let them be someone elses problem. :D

Really though, for America what else can we do other than firm up the border to prevent future illegal immigrants, slowly legalize those here already.

-SNIP-

Sounds like a nice way to induce rioting and terrorism

As I said before, us arguing is very futile. You'd never change my opinion and I'll never change yours. So, let's agree to disagree. You can have both Americas for your "one world one culture one race" BS but leave Europe to people like me. It's small and not too much to ask for. Besides, except Canada, the climate is much better in Americas...
What about asylum, and the people that have been born in Europe, yet unlike previous immigrants remain visible?

And consequently fall victim to discrimination on the basis of religion and ethnicity...

As I said before, us arguing is very futile. You'd never change my opinion and I'll never change yours. So, let's agree to disagree. You can have both Americas for your "one world one culture one race" BS but leave Europe to people like me. It's small and not too much to ask for. Besides, except Canada, the climate is much better in Americas...

I had someone tell me almost the exact same thing the other day, only reversing "the Americas" and "Europe". Except for the comment on the climate, of course.

I had someone tell me almost the exact same thing the other day, only reversing "the Americas" and "Europe". Except for the comment on the climate, of course.

That's a very idiotic thing to say. Also a very depressive one for me :D USA is the immigration society. Most countries in Europe are still quite homogenous...And when we go down South, countries like Brazil are even more diverse than USA....

That's a very idiotic thing to say. Also a very depressive one for me :D USA is the immigration society. Most countries in Europe are still quite homogenous...And when we go down South, countries like Brazil are even more diverse than USA....

I do not think that is true, except for Iceland perhaps...

I do not think that is true, except for Iceland perhaps...
I disagree. The native populations of Europe have been pretty much the same throughout history. It's only been in about the last 50 years that we've had a foreign population living here - aside from them, most European countries are pretty homogenous.

I do not think that is true, except for Iceland perhaps...

Where are you from? Have you ever lived in Europe?

Where are you from? Have you ever lived in Europe?


I have lived in Europe for most of my life... :D

I disagree. The native populations of Europe have been pretty much the same throughout history. It's only been in about the last 50 years that we've had a foreign population living here - aside from them, most European countries are pretty homogenous.

Actually the world has gotten smaller, due to changes in transportation...

Previously immigration came from other regions within your country, then it came from neighboring countries, then from other European countries, then from the Eastern Europe, turkey and the Magreb, now from all over the world...

Migration and opposition against it is of all times

That's a very idiotic thing to say. Also a very depressive one for me :D USA is the immigration society. Most countries in Europe are still quite homogenous...And when we go down South, countries like Brazil are even more diverse than USA....

The guy who made that comment is a white nationalist, and wants to see all blacks in the US moved to either different countries or moved to a few states, which would then be expelled from the Union. His rationale is that the USA is a conservative white Christian country, and that Europe is a liberal secular set of countries. I guess he hasn't noticed that Europeans and Americans seem to be reacting to recent mass immigration similarly, although cultural variations show, such as the Minuteman Project. It doesn't really make any sense, but honestly I think it's only slightly less sensical than your idea for an ethnically pure Europe. We'll never convert each other on that score, so we should just agree to disagree.

I'm curious, what is your stance on immigrants to Europe from other first world nations?

The guy who made that comment is a white nationalist, and wants to see all blacks in the US moved to either different countries or moved to a few states, which would then be expelled from the Union. His rationale is that the USA is a conservative white Christian country, and that Europe is a liberal secular set of countries. I guess he hasn't noticed that Europeans and Americans seem to be reacting to recent mass immigration similarly, although cultural variations show, such as the Minuteman Project. It doesn't really make any sense, but honestly I think it's only slightly less sensical than your idea for an ethnically pure Europe. We'll never convert each other on that score, so we should just agree to disagree.

I'm curious, what is your stance on immigrants to Europe from other first world nations?

Actually Europeans are much more conservative than Americans when it comes to immigration. First of all in many countries, anti-immigrant parties receive significant amount of votes and in top 3 in France, Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Austria...And most politicians are tougher than American politicians. Sarkozy was recently saying immigrants either love France or leave it. I dont think that's a thing an American president would say. And they are thinking of giving amnesty to millions of immigrants there, it'd be a political suicide here, even if we adjust numbers to population sizes. And this not just due to bad economic conditions. Denmark, Norway and Switzerland all have superb economies with really low unemployment levels but immigration is still a big issue.
Other than this, I agree that Europe is much more "liberal" than USA. Liberal is quoted because it is used in incorrect American sense. Actually USA is more liberal than Europe since its economy is much more laissez faire.
As for sense, I'm not expecting you to find any. You were born in a country which began as an immigration country and continued like it. It's all you know...

Sounds like a nice way to induce rioting and terrorism
You should never give in to rioters and terrorists. A government should never go back on its word because of the actions of these people. If anything it should make them all the more determined to carry out their policies. If a community decides to turn to riots and terrorism then that community would have to be punished.

Hey NL...It seems Jürgen Rieger already bought the hotel in Delmenhorst. Paranoid villigers with torches could have only made €625,000...

You loose :D

You should never give in to rioters and terrorists. A government should never go back on its word because of the actions of these people. If anything it should make them all the more determined to carry out their policies. If a community decides to turn to riots and terrorism then that community would have to be punished.

But with your policies you would automatically be punishing all muslims for the actions of individuals, you would be forcing really bad relations with them and their would be a reaction to it.
Also intergration never works, you can't make people conform to your idea of what being British is because it can't really be defined and changes so quickly.
Oh yeah, religous education should do what it says on the tin and not be christian education.

Actually Europeans are much more conservative than Americans when it comes to immigration. First of all in many countries, anti-immigrant parties receive significant amount of votes and in top 3 in France, Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Austria...And most politicians are tougher than American politicians. Sarkozy was recently saying immigrants either love France or leave it. I dont think that's a thing an American president would say. And they are thinking of giving amnesty to millions of immigrants there, it'd be a political suicide here, even if we adjust numbers to population sizes. And this not just due to bad economic conditions. Denmark, Norway and Switzerland all have superb economies with really low unemployment levels but immigration is still a big issue.
Other than this, I agree that Europe is much more "liberal" than USA. Liberal is quoted because it is used in incorrect American sense. Actually USA is more liberal than Europe since its economy is much more laissez faire.
As for sense, I'm not expecting you to find any. You were born in a country which began as an immigration country and continued like it. It's all you know...

You'll find an amazing variation in opinions to immigration by state over here. Check this poll (http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StateImmigration0512ByState.htm) out.

And yes, I'm aware of the incorrect usage of the term "liberal" over here. I have to switch between definitions when talking to people in person and over the Internet, so I forget which one I'm using at times.

Oh yeah, religous education should do what it says on the tin and not be christian education.
As opposed to the current way, with left wing teachers using the classroom as a soapbox for their far left cultural reletavist views?

As opposed to the current way, with left wing teachers using the classroom as a soapbox for their far left cultural relatavist views?

Well, how do you know its like this? I was in high school recently and our teacher was a christian and just taught us about the 6 major religions, that was it. It dosen't matter what the topic(s) is, all teachers can abuse their power, I beleive there was a case in the US where a science teacher was warned or suspended for preaching anti-bush sentiments.

You'll find an amazing variation in opinions to immigration by state over here. Check this poll (http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StateImmigration0512ByState.htm) out.

And yes, I'm aware of the incorrect usage of the term "liberal" over here. I have to switch between definitions when talking to people in person and over the Internet, so I forget which one I'm using at times.

That site looks so crappy. These are the opinions of Europeans in 1997. I cant find a newer Euro wide survey like this. Basically, "our country reached its limits" means we dont want any more immigrants....

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/218/immigrationxx7.jpg

What a democracy :rolleyes:

Well, how do you know its like this? I was in high school recently and our teacher was a christian and just taught us about the 6 major religions, that was it. It dosen't matter what the topic(s) is, all teachers can abuse their power, I beleive there was a case in the US where a science teacher was warned or suspended for preaching anti-bush sentiments.
Maybe it's different in America, I wouldn't know. But speaking as an English 16 year old, I can tell you that my RE class was exactly as I said it was.

Maybe it's different in America, I wouldn't know. But speaking as an English 16 year old, I can tell you that my RE class was exactly as I said it was.

I'm an English 17 year old, I was just using that case as an example, everyone has different experiences but it depends on the teacher not the topic.

Well duh. They're tea-sipping scone-scoffing twats. Of course they were bound to fail. We're America! One nation under GOD! We can't lose, get it?

Just kidding, all you British people out there. No need to come burn our capital again.
What's that they say about history and those that ignore it? :).

What's that they say about history and those that ignore it? :).

Um.

They get elected to high political office and set foreign policy?

1. More border patrol. At least 20,000. Deploy them predominantly on the southern border.

2. Serious penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants or landlords who rent to illegal immigrants.

3. Hospitals must refuse treatment to illegal aliens except in emergency cases. No more seeing the illegal alien complaining of a stubbed toe at the emergency room. No schooling for illegal immigrants and no other services including phone, cable, etc...

4. Streamline and speed up the process of applying for American citizenship. Give special consideration to applicants from Mexico and Canada as partners in NAFTA.

5. Give tax incentives to private employment agencies to open offices in Mexico and Canada to process, hire and transport immigrants who seek jobs in the U.S.

6. Offer permanent resident status and eventually citizenship to immigrants who have worked or resided in the US legally for a certain number of years, say five, but a number of years that congress can agree on.

What's that they say about history and those that ignore it? :).


Something like:

What´s forgotten is doomed to be repeated

Something like:

What´s forgotten is doomed to be repeated

Are doomed to repeat it.

What's that they say about history and those that ignore it? :).

They shalt inheritthe Earth.

I'm not looking for army recruits or anything - just looking to make sure people don't want to come to the US just to blow it up.
So what exactly is anti-American sentiment then? Cindy Sheehan? Jane Fonda? Or Osama Bin Laden?

Also, if everyone who wants to go to the US and work there for a while has to be a citizen...how easy is it to get rid of the citizenship? I mean, I plan to go and work wherever they offer me a decent job, regardless of geography. If that is in the US, and I have to become a citizen - can I reverse that if something better comes along some other time?

Or would a residence permit system be better?

...an exam of cultural values like some of the German Länder already do.
Yeah, and wasn't that a glorious idea. :rolleyes:

The problem is that culture is a little bit like quantum physics. If you try to measure it and quantify it (as you would have to do for these policies from above to work), it invariably either changes or at the very least the results will be nonsensical.

Case in point: Those very tests you mentioned. Ask a German, especially a younger German (those being the one's defining the culture while the old people die off in their nostalgia), and they'll have a good laugh.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,415207,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,415242,00.html
http://www1.spiegel.de/active/citizenship/fcgi/citizenship.fcgi (this one is hilarious!)

And going on in Spiegel's freaky tradition of always writing articles that fit exactly with the topic of the day on NSG (I swear those guys are lurking this place):
Integration in Theory, Alienation in Practice (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,433006,00.html)
Following an SOS from a Berlin school last spring, German legislators have sought to help children with immigration backgrounds. But can laws combat ingrained cultural insensitivities?

Hey NL...It seems Jürgen Rieger already bought the hotel in Delmenhorst.
No he didn't. The owner gave it to him as a "gift" to get rid of the mortgage. Apparently the guy's had money trouble.

Paranoid villigers with torches could have only made €625,000...
In nine days. That's not bad...and it shows that there is widespread opposition to it. Rest assured that the Nazis will never have a quiet time there.

Well, we'll do it slowly and sneakily. Like... Canada first. Every night, we repaint the borders a couple of yards. It's a long scale plan, but that will eventually give us all of Continental North, South, and Central America. Then we pick a fight with China over something, and 'occupy' them, and then, by some strange chance, 101% of them will vote to join the US, (at that point, who's gonna call us on it?). Then we use the same strategy to take over Asia, Europe and Africa, and are we really worried about Australia?
Wouldn't work. Since Bush, Canadians check the location of the border every day. Good ol' Stewart.

Plus, it ignores that fact that much of the world finds it insulting to be called American.
You should never give in to rioters and terrorists. A government should never go back on its word because of the actions of these people. If anything it should make them all the more determined to carry out their policies. If a community decides to turn to riots and terrorism then that community would have to be punished.
But they get punished regardless. They got nothing to lose from rioting, but if they are successful, they could gain the ability to remain in the country.

I am being serious. There is no "problem." National/racial/cultural chauvinism is irrational nonsense.

Instead of wasting resources on the obstruction and demonization of immigrations, we should be concerned with productive goals - like creating global economic justice.

hear hear.Most sensible thing Ive hear all year.People shoulde be free to live where tehy want.They shouldnt be forces out of their countries-they wouldnt need to be if there was a fairer balance of world trade.They should also be able to leave their own country if they want to, and no one should stop them.Lets stop all this tribal nonsense and start caring about hum,anity as a whole(like a world community)

No he didn't. The owner gave it to him as a "gift" to get rid of the mortgage. Apparently the guy's had money trouble.


In nine days. That's not bad...and it shows that there is widespread opposition to it. Rest assured that the Nazis will never have a quiet time there.

If there was widespread opposition they should have made €100M in 9 days...I guess Nazi paranoia is marginalized.
I actually laughed at "fear of racist research". What are they expecting? That the guys in hotel would kidnap jews and make experiments on them? This is 21st century for god's sake. I dont find this paranoia of marginal people healthy...

If there was widespread opposition they should have made €100M in 9 days...I guess Nazi paranoia is marginalized.
Delmenhorst is not that big. And outside the town...well, you know how these things go. As long as it's not in your neighbourhood...

I actually laughed at "fear of racist research". What are they expecting?
Aside from that most people just don't like it (whether you like it or not, this is Germany we're talking about, and absolutely everything has major connotations of all kinds), it must be the history of the various projects this foundation has run (like Aryan breeding colonies somewhere in Scandinavia). They all failed in their original goals, but they still became major meeting places for all sorts of Neonazi- and Skinhead groups (note: that's actual skinheads and neonazis, the type that drinks in the street and bashes people at random, just for fun, the type that got a friend of mine an extended stay in hospital once for wearing a T-Shirt of the wrong sort of band).
And I can certainly understand the people in Delmenhorst if they prefer that sort of people to stay away.

Yeah, and wasn't that a glorious idea. :rolleyes:

The problem is that culture is a little bit like quantum physics. If you try to measure it and quantify it (as you would have to do for these policies from above to work), it invariably either changes or at the very least the results will be nonsensical.

Case in point: Those very tests you mentioned. Ask a German, especially a younger German (those being the one's defining the culture while the old people die off in their nostalgia), and they'll have a good laugh.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,415207,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,415242,00.html
http://www1.spiegel.de/active/citizenship/fcgi/citizenship.fcgi (this one is hilarious!)

And going on in Spiegel's freaky tradition of always writing articles that fit exactly with the topic of the day on NSG (I swear those guys are lurking this place):
Integration in Theory, Alienation in Practice (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,433006,00.html)

Well, I think it would be very hard to define a very obvious British culture. For example, I would find it very hard to believe you would find many Welsh speakers anywhere in England, maybe in London where there are a lot of Welsh that have gone for work, but that is the exception. It is even hard to say what Welsh culture is, especially in relation to the North/South divide, and you are talking about only 3 million people here in Wales. I find that the culture in England is very different than where I live, both in people act and the language that people speak. I don't know Scotland or Northern Ireland well enough to say myself, but I would guess they have some major cultural diffences between them and the rest of the UK as well. However, I mean by a cultural exam a looser idea of basic political culture and understanding of the system of the UK. While it would be hard to say there is a British culture anymore than a German one, there are some fundamental cultural values that do underline most peoples beliefs in the UK.

While it would be hard to say there is a British culture anymore than a German one, there are some fundamental cultural values that do underline most peoples beliefs in the UK.
And that aren't covered by the country's laws?

Because the laws and police ultimately represent something of a basic consensus on right and wrong. If you disagree with them, and act on it, you can expect some sort of punishment.

Is there a need to treat immigrants differently from anyone else?

And that aren't covered by the country's laws?

Because the laws and police ultimately represent something of a basic consensus on right and wrong. If you disagree with them, and act on it, you can expect some sort of punishment.

Is there a need to treat immigrants differently from anyone else?

Apparently not from what I can tell. Should people be refused service because they don't belong to their ethnic or religious group? It happens here. Do they do anything about people advocating killing Brits in the UK because they don't like their views or the views of the government? No. What about cultural norms that aren't laws but most people would frown upon if you broke? You start making laws like this, you get all sorts of people complaining about the "Nanny State," but they complain when people, especially if it is immigrants, break them.

It seems logical to prevent those people from entering in the first place rather than waiting from them do something. Immigration is something easier to control rather than after they get here. As I said before, I am not originally from here, and I would not have been offended to take such exams if it is something for the greater good. As non-EU citizen, I feel that I don't have the right to be here if I didn't try to integrate or if I didn't meet certain immigration requirements. Integration is not the same as assimilating. I don't expect a young Muslim to go for a pub crawl on Friday nights or a Hindu to eat beef just because the Brits do. However, they should try function with the greater British society rather than living in parallel to it. I don't know about how it is in Australia, but in the UK there is the problem that there are groups in some immigrant populations live completely parallel lives to the general population.

That's a very idiotic thing to say. Also a very depressive one for me :D USA is the immigration society. Most countries in Europe are still quite homogenous...

I guess that's why Europe's age has passed and America is the world superpower now. And here you want to regress back further to the idea of 19th century "ethnic nation states!"